Friday Water Cooler: Lehigh/Colgate Won't Break 10,000

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/10/friday-water-cooler-lehighcolgate-wont.html

It talks a lot about specific issues with Lehigh and Colgate in terms of attendance, but it actually goes into larger issues with scheduling and planning of campus events. It's family weekend up at Colgate this weekend, virtually guaranteeing no visiting turnout at the game and ruining a potential weekend where family and alums might attend a game. Shouldn't schools do a better job with this?

[DFW HOYA]

Look no further than the start time: 12:30 pm. Not many Colgate fans willing to start driving down at 6:30 am for this one.

Why can't PL games start at 2:30?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Look no further than the start time: 12:30 pm. Not many Colgate fans willing to start driving down at 6:30 am for this one.

Why can't PL games start at 2:30?

Excellent point, but in terms of Holy Cross and Lehigh the issue is lights. There aren't any, which limits when games can be played.

[carney2]

Even when supplementing my failing vision with binoculars I rarely, if ever, detect many bodies in the visiting stands at Fisher for any games except Lehigh. Waiting for the visiting team to spin the turnstiles in the Patriot League is akin to waiting for palm trees to grow in Manitoba. Parents Weekend or no Parents Weekend up on the tundra, you will get about the same number of 'gaters at Badman tomorrow. Not a solid excuse for tomorrow's attendance, LFN.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Even when supplementing my failing vision with binoculars I rarely, if ever, detect many bodies in the visiting stands at Fisher for any games except Lehigh. Waiting for the visiting team to spin the turnstiles in the Patriot League is akin to waiting for palm trees to grow in Manitoba. Parents Weekend or no Parents Weekend up on the tundra, you will get about the same number of 'gaters at Badman tomorrow. Not a solid excuse for tomorrow's attendance, LFN.

I don't think my piece is as much as an excuse as an explanation - both on the home side and the visiting side. What would the harm have been in having Family Weekend be the same weekend as Lehigh/Colgate? Wouldn't that have boosted attendance? Add to that even 500 interested students/alumni tailgating and coming from Colgate and you break 10,000, and you probably get even more.

Point is, there are simple things that can be done to boost attendance that are not being done, either by accident, by design or by neglect.

[TheValleyRaider]

This is the first time in my time with Colgate (since 2003) that Family Weekend did not coincide with a home game. Just the way the schedule shook out this year, I guess. As for attendance in Lehigh, most of the crowd that travels isn't students, certainly not for Lehigh. If our section is lacking in people, it won't be because of Family Weekend

[ngineer]

The attendance issues in the PL and IL are much broader and deeper than a scheduled weekend. A cultural shift has occured on campuses where there are 'better things to do' for a lot of students. If we have a Parents Weekend, that may boost it a bit, but unless it's Laugheyette, the majority of students don't care. My guess is that we get close to 9,000, which considering the past month's attendance would be pretty good. We're measuring against a new paradigm now.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This is the first time in my time with Colgate (since 2003) that Family Weekend did not coincide with a home game. Just the way the schedule shook out this year, I guess. As for attendance in Lehigh, most of the crowd that travels isn't students, certainly not for Lehigh. If our section is lacking in people, it won't be because of Family Weekend

Here's my question: why is this so? Was it a conscious decision by the University? Was it through popular student demand? Was it slid through by the BOT? How?

And I'm not singling out Colgate, as Lehigh did the same thing. I suspect Villanova did the same, too.

[LUHawker]

My observations on attendance are the following (not necessarily in this order, but generally):

1. Lehigh hasn't been strong in recent years
2. Quality of play, regardless of record, not great inn recent years.
3. Patriot League as a whole has gotten worse, so little interest generated from OOC games in general and in-league games not as important for potential at-large consideration.
4. 12:30 start times. That extra half hour for travel and tailgating makes a big difference. More folks stay in the parking lot to hang instead of coming to game.
5. Crack down on student fun
6. Despite winning last two against the Pards, folks remember losing 4.
7. Small crowd size has vicious cycle effect.
8. Disenchantment with coaching staff and inability to win over past few years at home in close ones.


Goodman is still a great venue to watch a game and the setting is perfect, but growing irrelevance of Patriot League and Lehigh keep fans away. This goes for both home fans and visitors. If Lehigh was really taken seriously, don't you think that Villanova would have brought more fans?

[TheValleyRaider]

Here's my question: why is this so? Was it a conscious decision by the University? Was it through popular student demand? Was it slid through by the BOT? How?

And I'm not singling out Colgate, as Lehigh did the same thing. I suspect Villanova did the same, too.

No idea, but my guess is that it's always this weekend, so they just put it in the schedule like always. The presence of a football game there would seem to be coincidental

I think, though, that ngineer gets closer to the point. This is not related to Colgate's scheduling, especially when it involves Lehigh's attendance xtwocentsx

[Sader87]

My observations on attendance are the following (not necessarily in this order, but generally):

1. Lehigh hasn't been strong in recent years
2. Quality of play, regardless of record, not great inn recent years.
3. Patriot League as a whole has gotten worse, so little interest generated from OOC games in general and in-league games not as important for potential at-large consideration.
4. 12:30 start times. That extra half hour for travel and tailgating makes a big difference. More folks stay in the parking lot to hang instead of coming to game.
5. Crack down on student fun
6. Despite winning last two against the Pards, folks remember losing 4.
7. Small crowd size has vicious cycle effect.
8. Disenchantment with coaching staff and inability to win over past few years at home in close ones.


Goodman is still a great venue to watch a game and the setting is perfect, but growing irrelevance of Patriot League and Lehigh keep fans away. This goes for both home fans and visitors. If Lehigh was really taken seriously, don't you think that Villanova would have brought more fans?

Exactly...you guys like to beat me up (and I probably deserve it to a certain extent) when I post "NO ONE CARES" vis a vis PL football but without scholarships, it really is true...very, very few outside of alumni, current students and a few die-hard locals could give two you know whats.

[Franks Tanks]

Colgate-Lafayette had a hair under 10k last year for their game at Fisher under similar circumstances. Shot at the title on the line, nice weekend etc.

It will be interesting to see if Lehigh can draw a crowd tomorrow.

[Franks Tanks]

My observations on attendance are the following (not necessarily in this order, but generally):

1. Lehigh hasn't been strong in recent years
2. Quality of play, regardless of record, not great inn recent years.
3. Patriot League as a whole has gotten worse, so little interest generated from OOC games in general and in-league games not as important for potential at-large consideration.
4. 12:30 start times. That extra half hour for travel and tailgating makes a big difference. More folks stay in the parking lot to hang instead of coming to game.
5. Crack down on student fun
6. Despite winning last two against the Pards, folks remember losing 4.
7. Small crowd size has vicious cycle effect.
8. Disenchantment with coaching staff and inability to win over past few years at home in close ones.


Goodman is still a great venue to watch a game and the setting is perfect, but growing irrelevance of Patriot League and Lehigh keep fans away. This goes for both home fans and visitors. If Lehigh was really taken seriously, don't you think that Villanova would have brought more fans?

Exactly...you guys like to beat me up (and I probably deserve it to a certain extent) when I post "NO ONE CARES" vis a vis PL football but without scholarships, it really is true...very, very few outside of alumni, current students and a few die-hard locals could give two you know whats.

Look at attendance at places like UNH and Maine. Few people seem to care with scholly's.

[ngineer]

It's not just football. Lehigh rarely had more than 1,000 people come out for their championship basketball team last year. The students have changed AND the administration's cracking down on student tailgating, with the cops administering breath tests to ride the buses over to the valley, has compounded the problem. Too much of a hassle to have a good time. The academic makeup at the PL schools has risen significantly over the past 10 years (a lot of us have commented that many of us would never get into our respective schools, today), which translates into many more students who are more interested in the Library or the computer on Saturday. Beyond that, society is changing; more and more of my friends have kids with all sorts of activities on Saturday that have now become a commitment for parents to attend, who have lamented their continual conflict of schedules. Add to this the fact that Lehigh's record over the past 4 years has been mediocre with a lot of disappointing losses. All of these factors come into play along with the fact that the teams visiting Goodman do not bring many supporting fans, either. Villanova has never traveled well, either this year or in years past. Heck they don't fill their stadium as the national champs. To paraphrase Bob Dylan, "The times they have a-changed", unfortunately.
Yes, the 145th meeting at Lafayette on November 20 will be SRO with about 15,000..but that doesn't count as it is more of an event for many, than 'just a game.' Sorry to say it's so, but it's so.

[Franks Tanks]

It's not just football. Lehigh rarely had more than 1,000 people come out for their championship basketball team last year. The students have changed AND the administration's cracking down on student tailgating, with the cops administering breath tests to ride the buses over to the valley, has compounded the problem. Too much of a hassle to have a good time. The academic makeup at the PL schools has risen significantly over the past 10 years (a lot of us have commented that many of us would never get into our respective schools, today), which translates into many more students who are more interested in the Library or the computer on Saturday. Beyond that, society is changing; more and more of my friends have kids with all sorts of activities on Saturday that have now become a commitment for parents to attend, who have lamented their continual conflict of schedules. Add to this the fact that Lehigh's record over the past 4 years has been mediocre with a lot of disappointing losses. All of these factors come into play along with the fact that the teams visiting Goodman do not bring many supporting fans, either. Villanova has never traveled well, either this year or in years past. Heck they don't fill their stadium as the national champs. To paraphrase Bob Dylan, "The times they have a-changed", unfortunately.
Yes, the 145th meeting at Lafayette on November 20 will be SRO with about 15,000..but that doesn't count as it is more of an event for many, than 'just a game.' Sorry to say it's so, but it's so.

All true. FCS football, scholarship or non-scholarship, just isn't a draw in the NE U.S for a variety of reasons. I took a look at the Lafayette library picture archives, and they are full or ordinary games with full stadiums. In the 60's we had a nearly full house for early season games against Gettysburg. Those days are gone. Society is different. Just as I can no longer get a job at the Steel for 40 years and a membership at Saucon Valley. People are busy, every game is on TV, and the demographics of our schools arent quite the same.

[Sader87]

Garbage...this fall HC at UMass had 16,000 and HC at Harvard had 20,000....it's the Patriot League that doesn't draw.

[Franks Tanks]

Garbage...this fall HC at UMass had 16,000 and HC at Harvard had 20,000....it's the Patriot League that doesn't draw.


Lafayette-Lehigh will have 15k, and we would have more if our stadium could hold it. Every year I have a half dozen people at work ask me if I can get them tickets a few days before the game. I of course have to decline.

[Sader87]

Lafayette-Lehigh will have 15k, and we would have more if our stadium could hold it. Every year I have a half dozen people at work ask me if I can get them tickets a few days before the game. I of course have to decline.

And BC and Holy Cross would probably draw 50,000+ at Gillette if they played there this year....point being, HC has much bigger crowds (and interest) against non-PL rivals than they do against the Pennsylvanian PL schools.

[Franks Tanks]

Lafayette and Lehigh played Rutgers all the time in the stone ages as well. We all played current big time school back in the day. It has no relevance to the real world in 2010.

[DFW HOYA]

And BC and Holy Cross would probably draw 50,000+ at Gillette if they played there this year....point being, HC has much bigger crowds (and interest) against non-PL rivals than they do against the Pennsylvanian PL schools.

Yes, the Pennsylvania schools are not big draws, but to be fair, saying BC-Holy Cross would draw 50,000 is like saying Georgetown-Maryland would draw 50,000...except that almost all the fans would be from Maryland. No one under the age of 30 has any memory of a BC-HC football game, and the HC football base is not what it was in 1986.

The PL teams that drew 10,000-20,000 a generation ago aren't getting it done today. In 1970, Fordham-Georgetown drew 13,568 in the Bronx...this for two teams just elevated from club status. How many will they draw Saturday, 4,800?

[Sader87]

The difference being BC and Holy Cross were "end of the year rivals"....what is relevant to 2010 is that the vast majority of what is left of HC fandom care much more about games against UMass and Harvard than they do about games against Lehigh and Lafayette.

[Franks Tanks]

The difference being BC and Holy Cross were "end of the year rivals"....what is relevant to 2010 is that the vast majority of what is left of HC fandom care much more about games against UMass and Harvard than they do about games against Lehigh and Lafayette.

How many people show up at Fitton for games vs. UMASS and Harvard?

[Sader87]

How many people show up at Fitton for games vs. UMASS and Harvard?

http://goholycross.com/sports/m-footbl/stats/2008-2009/hc01.htm

UMass at HC 2008...nearly 13,000

http://goholycross.com/sports/m-footbl/stats/2009-2010/hc03.htm

Harvard at HC 2009 ...about the same 12,889

[Franks Tanks]

Good attendance, but not the amount that would have showed up in the 80's. Fact is that FCS attendance has suffered at all levels in the NE. Ivy, Patriot, or CAA-- at all levels we are seeing reduced fan interest. It is not a scholarship issue, it is a demographic/society issue.

[DFW HOYA]

http://goholycross.com/sports/m-footbl/stats/2008-2009/hc01.htm
UMass at HC 2008...nearly 13,000
http://goholycross.com/sports/m-footbl/stats/2009-2010/hc03.htm
Harvard at HC 2009 ...about the same 12,889

Agreed, but HC-Georgetown drew all of 5,897 to open that season. I think it speaks to the closer distance of the UMass/Harvard fan bases, and all the PL schools are a longer drive to get to Worcester.

[Sader87]

Good attendance, but not the amount that would have showed up in the 80's. Fact is that FCS attendance has suffered at all levels in the NE. Ivy, Patriot, or CAA-- at all levels we are seeing reduced fan interest. It is not a scholarship issue, it is a demographic/society issue.

I disagree...many of the CAA schools are drawing much better now than they did in the 1980's....the Ivies and the PL have thrown in the towel football-wise and the fans have subsequently left those leagues as well.

[Franks Tanks]

The Southern CAA schools may draw better, but does UMASS, Maine, UNH, and URI really draw better now than in 1980? Two CAA schools just dropped football this off-season, how did scholly's help their attendabce?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

At some level, though, this has to be institutional. I pose the same question again: what would it have harmed Lehigh to make this weekend family weekend instead of next weekend? It's not pacing break. It's not exams. Bill Clinton or the Dalai Lama isn't coming next weekend. Someone at Lehigh had the opportunity to make a schedule for family weekend, and they chose a non-football weekend to do it. Villanova didn't have to choose a football Saturday to have their volunteer day, but they did.

I do think that everyone here makes some valid points about how times are changing. Indeed they are. But it starts with making a schedule which values a football game as a worthwhile thing to do for regular students and their parents to experience. I don't think that should be overlooked.

[Sader87]

UMass is drawing better now than they did in the 70's and 80's....UNH would draw better if they had a better on-campus facility...URI is a mess and has never drawn well...Maine I really don't know quite honestly, smallish state and Orono may as well be in Canada it's so far north.

[DFW HOYA]

I don't have data to 1980, but here's a snapshot of PL attendance in 1995, 2003 ("the last good year"), and 2010:

Bucknell:
1995: 7,067
2003: 5,441
2010: 5,352

Colgate:
1995: 1,805 (strange number)
2003: 6,439
2010: 6,720

Fordham:
1995: 2,369
2003: 4,932
2010: 4,291

Georgetown:
1995: 1,549 (MAAC)
2003: 1,675
2010: 2,538

Holy Cross:
1995: 6,108
2003: 6,884
2010: 7,615

Lafayette:
1995: 5,958
2003: 5,558
2010: 6,779

Lehigh:
1995: 10,350
2003: 10,683
2010: 6,815 (no Leh/Laf game in att. #)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Southern CAA schools may draw better, but does UMASS, Maine, UNH, and URI really draw better now than in 1980? Two CAA schools just dropped football this off-season, how did scholly's help their attendabce?

That's the wrong question. The question is: how did the schools try to strangle football out of existence? Aoun of Northeastern recently came out as a weasel who secretly wanted to drop football, and Hofstra's president's ambitions were less secret. They let football wither on the vine long enough and eventually cut it off.

I wonder if they did little things like move family weekend to non-football weekends? Is that part of the Silber playbook, or not?

Again, I don't know for sure, but it's damned worth asking.

[Franks Tanks]

That's the wrong question. The question is: how did the schools try to strangle football out of existence? Aoun of Northeastern recently came out as a weasel who secretly wanted to drop football, and Hofstra's president's ambitions were less secret. They let football wither on the vine long enough and eventually cut it off.

I wonder if they did little things like move family weekend to non-football weekends? Is that part of the Silber playbook, or not?

Again, I don't know for sure, but it's damned worth asking.

I hear ya LFN. The more I learn about the new Colgate prexi, the more I have doubt about PL football scholly's.

[DFW HOYA]

I hear ya LFN. The more I learn about the new Colgate prexi, the more I have doubt about PL football scholly's.

If Colgate backtracked, that really turns the tables squarely against Fordham. A 4-3 "yes" vote could swing to 6-1 "against" if Colgate (and by presumption, Lehigh) do not support it.

I still think it passes, however.

[Sader87]

I don't have data to 1980, but here's a snapshot of PL attendance in 1995, 2003 ("the last good year"), and 2010:

Bucknell:
1995: 7,067
2003: 5,441
2010: 5,352

Colgate:
1995: 1,805 (strange number)
2003: 6,439
2010: 6,720

Fordham:
1995: 2,369
2003: 4,932
2010: 4,291

Georgetown:
1995: 1,549 (MAAC)
2003: 1,675
2010: 2,538

Holy Cross:
1995: 6,108
2003: 6,884
2010: 7,615

Lafayette:
1995: 5,958
2003: 5,558
2010: 6,779

Lehigh:
1995: 10,350
2003: 10,683
2010: 6,815 (no Leh/Laf game in att. #)

Not questioning these figures...they are what they are, but it's also an era (1992-2005 or so) that one would have to say was the nadir of HC football attendence/interest-wise. Prior to 1992, a game at Fitton under 10,000 in attendence would be considered a very poorly attended game.

[VUCats02]

Good attendance, but not the amount that would have showed up in the 80's. Fact is that FCS attendance has suffered at all levels in the NE. Ivy, Patriot, or CAA-- at all levels we are seeing reduced fan interest. It is not a scholarship issue, it is a demographic/society issue.

This is simply the answer to the problem. It's nothing else, whether it's bad scheduling of parents weekend etc. It's simply that the culture of the northeast is pro football and baseball. While, yes, all over the country NFL stadiums sell out. However, Patriots, Giants, Ravens, Steelers, and Eagles fans are much more passionate fans than southern and western NFL teams. Baseball teams in the south and west are having this same exact problem that we're having with our attendance. In the South and West, there are better things to do than to go to a baseball game, however, you better be going to that college football game on Saturday because that's what everyone is doing.

We are on AGS, so I'd say it's a pretty good assumption everyone here is an above average sports fan. "Above average sports fans" make up about 5% of attendances at any sporting event. Attendance is dominantly based on the average sports fan - and if the culture isn't "college football" in the northeast, or "baseball" in the south, the average sports fans aren't attending those games. There's nothing you can really do about whether the northeast is a college football culture or not - that's just how it is.

['Gate93]

I don't have data to 1980, but here's a snapshot of PL attendance in 1995, 2003 ("the last good year"), and 2010:

Bucknell:
1995: 7,067
2003: 5,441
2010: 5,352

Colgate:
1995: 1,805 (strange number)
2003: 6,439
2010: 6,720

Fordham:
1995: 2,369
2003: 4,932
2010: 4,291

Georgetown:
1995: 1,549 (MAAC)
2003: 1,675
2010: 2,538

Holy Cross:
1995: 6,108
2003: 6,884
2010: 7,615

Lafayette:
1995: 5,958
2003: 5,558
2010: 6,779

Lehigh:
1995: 10,350
2003: 10,683
2010: 6,815 (no Leh/Laf game in att. #)

I'm actually impressed by Colgate's numbers, especially in relation to the other PL schools. Having the smallest enrollment - at a school where the student population outnumbers the entire village - I'd say they're holding their own. No recordbreakers for sure...and a snowy, bone-cold Saturday in November seldom helps attendance.

[Sader87]

6,784 at Goodman today.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/boxscore?gid=201010300164

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

6,784 at Goodman today.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/boxscore?gid=201010300164

I saw that number. How are they counting attendance at Lehigh this year? If there were only 6700 there today then i have a bridge to sell in NYC. IMO, that figure is laughable. Who's got pics?

[ngineer]

I saw that number. How are they counting attendance at Lehigh this year? If there were only 6700 there today then i have a bridge to sell in NYC. IMO, that figure is laughable. Who's got pics?

I agree the number seems low. I estimated about 6,000 in the home stands and about 2000+ on the other side, of which the majority were also Lehigh. Colgate may have had about 400-500 in the sections behind the team. Seemed the crowd was about the same size as the previous week with Bucknell.

[Go...gate]

I don't have data to 1980, but here's a snapshot of PL attendance in 1995, 2003 ("the last good year"), and 2010:

Bucknell:
1995: 7,067
2003: 5,441
2010: 5,352

Colgate:
1995: 1,805 (strange number)2003: 6,439
2010: 6,720

Fordham:
1995: 2,369
2003: 4,932
2010: 4,291

Georgetown:
1995: 1,549 (MAAC)
2003: 1,675
2010: 2,538

Holy Cross:
1995: 6,108
2003: 6,884
2010: 7,615

Lafayette:
1995: 5,958
2003: 5,558
2010: 6,779

Lehigh:
1995: 10,350
2003: 10,683
2010: 6,815 (no Leh/Laf game in att. #)

Team was 0-11 and AIR, the last two games of the season were played in abysmal weather.

[heath]

If your student body can't walk to the game, don't complain about attendance. While Goodman is a great atmosphere to play in, its 3-4 miles from campus,with 2-3 horrible roads that take you there. Just a shame not within walking distance to campus.xtwocentsx

[ngineer]

If your student body can't walk to the game, don't complain about attendance. While Goodman is a great atmosphere to play in, its 3-4 miles from campus,with 2-3 horrible roads that take you there. Just a shame not within walking distance to campus.xtwocentsx

No question it is more of a hassle to get to the stadium, but in today's society, with most students having wheels and the U providing buses, it's not "that big" a deal to get there. The students made it over the same roads ten years ago.

[LUHawker]

If your student body can't walk to the game, don't complain about attendance. While Goodman is a great atmosphere to play in, its 3-4 miles from campus,with 2-3 horrible roads that take you there. Just a shame not within walking distance to campus.xtwocentsx

It wasn't a problem when I attended Lehigh and isn't a problem for tens of thousands of students around the country that attend games at the big time football schools, so stadium location is an inconvenience at worst.

[heath]

"In todays society" if its not easy and infront of you as a spoiled student, the kids will not make the effort,10 years ago was a different world to these students,and Lehigh is not big time football. But, 12-15,000 should be expected in that area even if students can't make the game. SHAME on Lehigh Valley.

[ngineer]

"In todays society" if its not easy and infront of you as a spoiled student, the kids will not make the effort,10 years ago was a different world to these students,and Lehigh is not big time football. But, 12-15,000 should be expected in that area even if students can't make the game. SHAME on Lehigh Valley.

All of Lehigh's home games are also televised, locally. So the 'casual' fan who is 'interested' in seeing the game doesn't have to buy the ticket, sit in the elements, drive 20 minutes or so, etc. In addition, there is a lot of football to compete with on Saturday among the other colleges (Lafayette, Muhlenberg, Moravian), a fair number of high schools, and all the youth activities that now demand a parents time. The times they have a-changed, unfortunately. I don't blame the Valley, I blame the students for being pathetic.

[heath]

5.000 students will not fill the stadium, but asking 10-15,000 college football fans to attend a quality FCS game in a community that large,(with ticket prices that low) and you use all of your D3,high school and Pop Warner excuses,..........now thats pathetic.

[ngineer]

5.000 students will not fill the stadium, but asking 10-15,000 college football fans to attend a quality FCS game in a community that large,(with ticket prices that low) and you use all of your D3,high school and Pop Warner excuses,..........now thats pathetic.

So are you for making this personal. What's your problem. Need a dog to kick??

[heath]

So are you for making this personal. What's your problem. Need a dog to kick??

we can agree to disagree,right?Lets just kick a few studentsxnonox

[Sader87]

Essentially the same problem at HC. I don't know if this is the case in the Lehigh Valley but HC has lost a lot of Greater Worcester non-alum fans in the last 15-20 years. I contend a lot of it is due to the PL brand (non-scholarship, schools that many CMass denizens don't really care about etc.) but there are probably many other factors at play as well.

It will be interesting to see what the attendence will be at Fitton Saturday...and yes, I will be 1 of them.

[ngineer]

we can agree to disagree,right?Lets just kick a few studentsxnonox

I'd actually like to kick about 3,000 of them. I have never had a problem with someone disagreeing with an opinion. But there should be no need to denigrate someone's viewpoint.