The Sports Network Is Giving The SWAC The Middle Finger

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

The Sports Network Is Giving The SWAC The Middle Finger

There once was a time when those of us who follow FCS football would look forward to the weekly published reports of The Sports Network. It is the publication that was once appreciated by most FCS fans as it provided a national voice for “the little guys” in an arena dominated by football programs at the major level. The news reported by TSN on FCS programs may not have turned a lot of heads at the national level, but it was somewhat satisfying to know that TSN had the backs of FCS conferences and its member schools.

TSN produces its own FCS top 25 poll, awards a coach of the year, and awards the best offensive and defensive players of the year. The network has taken on the task of looking out for every conference, school and player competing at the FCS level. Well…that’s the way it used to be.

http://www.tspnsports.com/2010/10/21/the-sports-network-is-giving-the-swac-the-middle-finger.htm

[bluehenbillk]

Quid pro quo. Isn't in reality the SWAC that gives FCS the middle finger by having their own championship & not participating in the playoffs...

[eaglesrthe1]

Looks like legit gripes to me.

[Mr. C]

I will point out that last year Henry Frazier of Prairie View became the first coach from a SWAC school to win the Eddie Robinson Award. Also, Grambling defensive end Christian Anthony was in the top-five of the Buchanan Award balloting. He was No. 2 behind Arthur Moats on my ballot. QB Bryant Lee of Southern was one of the Payton Award finalists. I can't say what is going on this year, but Frank Warren and Raymond Webber would be on my watch list. In 2007-08, there were SWAC representatives on the Payton, Buchanan and Robinson lists.

[TexasTerror]

Has TSN updated their Watch List? When was the last time they updated their Watch List?

I can understand leaving a player or two off after the first update of the Watch List, but halfway through the season (or whenever that next Watch List comes out), you should have all the top players...

Henry Frazier III did get the Robinson as Mr. C says and that was pretty legit for the league. High profile award for a coach who has done great things. That got some recognition and he was most deserving...

As far as polls, the SWAC voters are getting their shot to give the SWAC some love. What hurts the SWAC is that they have two out of conference games and typically do not play FCS foes in them - which does nothing to expand their brand throughout FCS and let other voters (media and SIDs) see their teams first-hand.

Question is - who determines the Watch List? Is it the doing of Craig Haley? If so - you may be SOL. Haley has stretched himself too thin and is doing a piss-poor job across the board. I've said so myself. He seems to be trying too much without effective results.

[TexasTerror]

FYI...

Discussion from TSPN Sports (http://www.tspnsports.com/forums/showthread.php?93198-The-Sports-Network-Is-Giving-The-SWAC-The-Middle-Finger) (SWAC message board) on the subject,

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Warren should absolutely be on there.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

The problem is that the quality of football played in the SWAC is at or near the bottom in almost all of the ratings. Most of the SWAC teams don't schedule a lot of quality FCS teams for OOC games, and they aren't winning games against midlevel or better FBS teams either. When you take into account that the SWAC refuses to take part in the playoffs, it becomes very difficult to judge if a SWAC player is good because he is good, or if he looks good because he is playing against mostly inferior opponents.

IMO if the SWAC and/or the Ivies want recognition and ranking along with the rest of the FCS, they need to start playing more FCS teams and start participating in the playoff progress. The SWAC can't thumb it's nose at the playoffs and still expect to be taken seriously.

[TexasTerror]

The problem is that the quality of football played in the SWAC is at or near the bottom in almost all of the ratings. Most of the SWAC teams don't schedule a lot of quality FCS teams for OOC games, and they aren't winning games against midlevel or better FBS teams either. When you take into account that the SWAC refuses to take part in the playoffs, it becomes very difficult to judge if a SWAC player is good because he is good, or if he looks good because he is playing against mostly inferior opponents.

IMO if the SWAC and/or the Ivies want recognition and ranking along with the rest of the FCS, they need to start playing more FCS teams and start participating in the playoff progress. The SWAC can't thumb it's nose at the playoffs and still expect to be taken seriously.

I do not think the playoffs are the issue. You can debate that one quite a bit, but the fact remains that other schools who have not had a shot at the playoffs (see Pioneer, Ivy, etc) have had players receive recognition despite those limitations.

The issue is the SWAC's scheduling and the fact they hardly play any FCS games out of conference. The SWAC nine-game mandate handcuffs the league's ability to play OOC games while not giving the SWAC an opportunity to prove themselves outside of the in-house competition. And even when they play those two OOC games (and not all SWAC schools play a full schedule, mind you) - they are typically playing FBS and sub-Div I competition more so than not.

[mikebigg]

The problem is that the quality of football played in the SWAC is at or near the bottom in almost all of the ratings. Most of the SWAC teams don't schedule a lot of quality FCS teams for OOC games, and they aren't winning games against midlevel or better FBS teams either. When you take into account that the SWAC refuses to take part in the playoffs, it becomes very difficult to judge if a SWAC player is good because he is good, or if he looks good because he is playing against mostly inferior opponents.

IMO if the SWAC and/or the Ivies want recognition and ranking along with the rest of the FCS, they need to start playing more FCS teams and start participating in the playoff progress. The SWAC can't thumb it's nose at the playoffs and still expect to be taken seriously.

Would Delaware be willing to ink a home and home with Grambling? As for the playoffs... Not happening! We have a scheduling conflict (need to complete our regular season) with the start of the playoffs. This is old news, but because we don't have an auto bid...our league decided to split into two divisions and have a Championship game. That was better than sitting around "hoping" the NCAA would let us PAY them to participate.

[WestCoastAggie]

The TSN should have a equal amount of reporters who specialize in covering EACH FCS conference to vote in their Weekly Poll and their Pre-Season & Post-Season awards.

It doesn't matter if the SWAC plays teams outside the BCF world, they are FCS and should be reciving the SAME amount of coverage in the polls & awards as every other conference.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Would Delaware be willing to ink a home and home with Grambling? As for the playoffs... Not happening! We have a scheduling conflict (need to complete our regular season) with the start of the playoffs. This is old news, but because we don't have an auto bid...our league decided to split into two divisions and have a Championship game. That was better than sitting around "hoping" the NCAA would let us PAY them to participate.

I don't see UD wanting a home and home with Grambling because I don't really see what we would get out of it. The SWAC teams could probably schedule home and homes against some of the good regional FCS teams if they tried though, McNeese, Jacksonville State, Georgia Southern, SFA, etc would benefit from a regional game that could help draw larger crowds for both sides. Some of the CAA Virginia schools might even be close enough to be worth a look.

As far as the schedule goes, every other conference finds a way to make it work. If the SWAC wasn't offered an autobid, they should have improved their level of play and earned one, instead they threw a tantrum and decided to go home. The defining characteristic of the FCS is the playoff system. As long as the SWAC thumbs their noses at the playoffs, I have no issue with them being overlooked for FCS awards.

[WestCoastAggie]

Voters in the TSN Poll by conference

1. Southwestern Athletic Conference: Rodney Bush, Tom Galbraith, Ley Jean, Leonard Moon, Roderick Mosley, Wesley Peterson, Brandon Willis; Other Representatives: Brian Brennan, Josh Buchanan, LeCounte Conaway.

2. Pioneer Football League: Cody Bush, Jack Cronin, Drew Dickerson, Jeff Elliott, Mike Ferraro, Marc Gignac, Ted Gosen, Joel Lamp, Mike Mahon, Barry Milligan, Chuck Mraz, Joe Prisco, Ryan Wronkowicz

3. MEAC: Chris Carlson, Thomas Grant, Bill Hamilton, Leonard Hayes IV, Ed Hill Jr., Ronnie Johnson, Dennis Jones, Matt Michalec, Eric Moore, Patricia Porter, Dan Ryan, Maurice Williams, Brent Woronoff

4. CAA Football: Mike Barber, Pete Clawson, Mike DeGeorge, Glenn Frazer, Dean Kenefick, Allen Lessels, Andrew Mahoney, John Martin, Scott Meyer, Mike Murphy, Dan O'Connell, Keith Pompey, Scott Selheimer, Kevin Tresolini, Matt Vautour, Melinda Waldrop, Jason Yellin

5. Southland: Jason Barfield , Louis Bonnette, James Dixon, Kevin Gore, Alex Hickey, Doug Ireland, Todd Lamb, Tyler Mayforth, Rick Poulter, Brent St. Germain, Matt Sullivan

6. Southern Conference: Jay Blackman, Tommy Bowman, Rose Carter, Mike Flynn, Don Heath, David Jackson, Joey Mullins, Noelle Orr-Blaney, Chris Rash, Hunter Reid, Mandrallius "Many" Robinson, Adam Smith, Brent Williamson, Jason Yaman

7. Ivy League: Rick Bender, Ed Benkin, Eric Dolan, Michael Gold, Chris Humm, Craig Larson, Craig Sachson, Kurt Svoboda, Bruce Wood

8. Missouri Valley Football Conference: John Bohnenkamp, Jason Clay, Todd Hefferman, Jason Hove, Ace Hunt, Mike Kern, Rick Kindhart, Kara Moran, Patrick Osterman, Trevor Parks, Randy Reinhardt, Jeff Schwartz, Lyndal Scranton, Terry Vandrovec, Mike Williams, Brock Wissmiller

9. Northeast Conference: Brian DePasquale, Jim Duzyk, Andrew Santillo, Chris Shovlin, Jason Sullivan, Ralph Ventre, Greg Viscomi

10. Ohio Valley Conference: Neal Bradley, John Brush, Michael Clark, Wallace Dooley, Barry Gresham, Jeff Honza, James Horne, Brad Kirtley, Joe Lofaro, Rich Moser, Brian Nielsen, Mike Parris, Kyle Schwartz, Greg Seitz

11. Great West: Amil Anderson, Eric Burdick, Jacque Cottrell, Neil Gardner, Jeremy Hoeck, Doug Kelly, Mike Robles, Randy Scovil

12. Independent Schools: Ted Alexander, Chris Hooks, Opio Mashariki, Rich Radford, Kimberly Zivkovich

13. Patriot League: Charles Bare, Bill Bowman, Joe DiBari, Matt Dougherty, Keith Groller, Jeremiah Hergott, Steve Lomangino, Eric Malanowski, Matt Markus, Ryan Sakamoto

14. Other Representatives: Brian Brennan, Josh Buchanan, LeCounte Conaway

Please tell me how this list is an equal representation of all conferences in FCS?

[WestCoastAggie]

I don't see UD wanting a home and home with Grambling because I don't really see what we would get out of it. The SWAC teams could probably schedule home and homes against some of the good regional FCS teams if they tried though, McNeese, Jacksonville State, Georgia Southern, SFA, etc would benefit from a regional game that could help draw larger crowds for both sides. Some of the CAA Virginia schools might even be close enough to be worth a look.

As far as the schedule goes, every other conference finds a way to make it work. If the SWAC wasn't offered an autobid, they should have improved their level of play and earned one, instead they threw a tantrum and decided to go home. The defining characteristic of the FCS is the playoff system. As long as the SWAC thumbs their noses at the playoffs, I have no issue with them being overlooked for FCS awards.

I thought Post-Season awards were about Actual performances of a player, not who that player's team played?

[BlueHenSinfonian]

I thought Post-Season awards were about Actual performances of a player, not who that player's team played?

The performance of a player is directly related to who they play. Running for 1,000 yards against CAA defenses is a bigger achievement than running for 1,500 yards against SWAC defenses.

[TexasTerror]

Would Delaware be willing to ink a home and home with Grambling? As for the playoffs... Not happening! We have a scheduling conflict (need to complete our regular season) with the start of the playoffs. This is old news, but because we don't have an auto bid...our league decided to split into two divisions and have a Championship game. That was better than sitting around "hoping" the NCAA would let us PAY them to participate.

You would be surprised which teams would be interested in signing home-and-home agreements with the SWAC schools...

Unfortunately, the SWAC schools are either not willing (probably due to financial circumstances impacting their institutions that require 'Classic', FBS or strictly home games) or have had issues in properly complying with home-and-home agreements (Alcorn/SLU, UAPB/UCA twice, Southern/McNeese, SHSU/PVAMU and the list goes on).

The SWAC schools - IMO - do not care about receiving the recognition that comes with competing head-to-head against their FCS 'classmates'. Even without including the playoffs, the SWAC schools do not want to prove that they are level and/competitive against the rest of FCS. If they were, they would play these games - which are probably just as good, if not better tests for SWAC play than most of the rubbish they are scheduling...

They are instead, more interested in chasing SWAC, HBCU glory.


The performance of a player is directly related to who they play. Running for 1,000 yards against CAA defenses is a bigger achievement than running for 1,500 yards against SWAC defenses.

Hence why Bruce Eugene DID NOT get the Payton Award...

If Meyer played the same schedule that Bruce did, it would have been incredible!

[TexasTerror]

The TSN should have a equal amount of reporters who specialize in covering EACH FCS conference to vote in their Weekly Poll and their Pre-Season & Post-Season awards.

TSN only has two 'reporters' on their own staff..

At the beginning of the season, I know TSN reaches out to EVERY school at the FCS level to participate. If the SWAC school representatives chose not to participate, shame on them. I really think this is the case - since it seems a clear majority of FCS sports information directors participate in the poll or at the very least, a media member from each school. Heck, there was that BCF magazine that several SWAC schools did not have preview articles in. The SIDs wrote all the articles, so for a few schools from the SWAC, the SIDs just did not respond.

You can complain about the lack of votes, support for the SWAC schools in the polls and voting - but if the SWAC does not have 100% participation from each member institution - you can blame yourselves for some, if not part of the reason for this 'snubbing'.

But what do I know? I can count that only six of the 10 SWAC schools (plus the league office) are represented. A 60 percent effort by the SWAC schools! The SWAC needs to be complaining about their own efforts to help out, before they worry about the rest of the country thinks...

And again - every school is invited to participate. There's a reason 7 of 8 SLC schools (just UCA sat out and not including Lamar) participated and there's 100% participation from the MVFC and Great West, amongst others..

Reason #2 is the lack of games between SWAC and other FCS institutions. If the SWAC played more FCS games, it would promote their product and more importantly in this argument - TEAMS and PLAYERS - to a much larger audience of voters at this level. For this, you do not need the playoffs...

Reason #3 is Craig Haley. The Watch List situation is deserving of a look, but I've already criticized Craig Haley enough for his poor job this year with covering FCS - numerous times on AGS! He's stretched himself too thin and done bad at everything - glad TSPN is on board in criticizing him too.


It doesn't matter if the SWAC plays teams outside the BCF world, they are FCS and should be reciving the SAME amount of coverage in the polls & awards as every other conference.

Hard to provide them the same kind of coverage if they do not do their part to help their case - such as agreeing to participate in the voting (poll and award) process. Shame on the SWAC!

Heck, the fans of the SWAC hate on their own schools for their poor performance in putting together official stats (in particular, one school who received several penalties of greater than 20 yards - which we know not to be possible at the college level) or publicizing their schools. It's a problem and one that is worthwhile of some, if not some of the blame. The SWAC school's own staffers are giving their coaches, players the "middle finger".

[WileECoyote06]

I understand why they may falter in the rankings. But individual accomplishments of that magnitude should be applauded. They don't have to win, but they should be at least recognized. Ignoring them completely, shows a bias that FCS-centric writers/voters should try to avoid.

Kinda like Kellen Moore still being in contention for the Heisman. Unless he wins by default, he doesn't have a great shot at it. But he's mentioned among the best players.

[UAalum72]

TSN only has two 'reporters' on their own staff..

At the beginning of the season, I know TSN reaches out to EVERY school at the FCS level to participate.

So you changed "I'm sure" to "I know", which means the Northeast Conference got one league rep and only six reps from four schools out of nine to vote?
Brian DePasquale - Albany SID; Andrew Santillo -Troy Record, Albany Beat Writer; Jim Duzyk - RMU SID;Chris Shovlin - play-by-play voice for RMU; Jason Sullivan - Bryant SID; Ralph Ventre - Assistant Director of Communications for the NEC
Greg Viscomi - Assistant Director of Athletics Communications for Monmouth.

If true, the league better put out a memo about the value of homer voting in 'national' polls.

[kdinva]

Quid pro quo. Isn't in reality the SWAC that gives FCS the middle finger by having their own championship & not participating in the playoffs...

+1..

[TexasTerror]

So you changed "I'm sure" to "I know", which means the Northeast Conference got one league rep and only six reps from four schools out of nine to vote?

I was told this by a voter in the poll, awards - that Haley asked all those on his mailing list (which includes the SIDs and other school representatives that he sends the TSN poll, etc to) - and I have e-mailed Craig Haley to confirm. Will share the results when I get them from, since he'll give us accurate information.

When he was criticized for the poll voting, he made available a list of the voters. That was a BIG step forward and hopefully he'll respond to this question as well...


If true, the league better put out a memo about the value of homer voting in 'national' polls.

And I do not necessarily think "homer" voting carries the day, but leagues really have no position to criticize if they do not have 100% participation.

Hypothetically... it'd be like if the state of Texas complaining that Barrack Obama was President of the USA if the state did not participate in the 2008 Presidential election. If you do not participate, why should you be criticizing?

[3rd Coast Tiger]

Here's a suggestion...

Since many believe the SWAC wants to segregate itself from outside competition and only go after the "money" of classics. Why don't TSN go on record and make it policy that all Southwestern Athletic Conference coaches and players are ineligible from recognition.

How can certain SWAC players be listed as a result of their statistical accomplishments and other SWAC players with comparable statistics are not listed? Aren't they ALL playing inferior opponents according to some of the explanation given?

Furthermore, remove the names of the Coaches (Eddie Robinson), Offense (Walter Payton) and Defense (Buck Buchanan) awards of these SWAC individuals since the SWAC has become irrelevent.

[TexasTerror]

Craig Haley wrote me back, simply put - "Yes." when asked... "just to confirm, you contacted every school prior to the season to participate?"

So - yes, the schools from the SWAC have a 60 percent participation rate in the voting for the TSN Poll and Awards. The Watch List is indeed questionable, but the SWAC participant(s) may be in the next issue of the Watch List (which is not a finalist listing right now). The SWAC schools need to point fingers at each other for lack of votes in the polls & awards, before pointing fingers elsewhere for anything, but the Watch List.


Since many believe the SWAC wants to segregate itself from outside competition and only go after the "money" of classics. Why don't TSN go on record and make it policy that all Southwestern Athletic Conference coaches and players are ineligible from recognition.

That would be segregationalist. The TSN has always been one to include everyone - see their history in providing a Mid-Major national championship - when those schools had nothing to play for. They also attempt to include EVERY school in the process (though not all schools, as we've now learned, are willing partners).


How can certain SWAC players be listed as a result of their statistical accomplishments and other SWAC players with comparable statistics are not listed? Aren't they ALL playing inferior opponents according to some of the explanation given?

The SWAC players have been listed and will continue to be listed. Are they ultimately deserving of awards? As seen with Henry Frazier III - when they are due recognition, they'll most certainly get it!

[3rd Coast Tiger]

That would be segregationalist. The TSN has always been one to include everyone - see their history in providing a Mid-Major national championship - when those schools had nothing to play for. They also attempt to include EVERY school in the process (though not all schools, as we've now learned, are willing partners).

Hey, I just came to my conclusion based on what explanations that were given here in this thread and by the day on this message board (stats as a result of inferior competition doesn't deserve recognition).

[3rd Coast Tiger]

The SWAC players have been listed and will continue to be listed. Are they ultimately deserving of awards? As seen with Henry Frazier III - when they are due recognition, they'll most certainly get it!

Honestly, Coach Frazier is a friend of mine but who did he beat outside the SWAC last year to be deserving of the award? Here's the answer... nobody.

So he didn't deserve the award as there were more deserving coaches that play superior talent week in and week out in far more superior conferences within FCS play.

[TexasTerror]

Hey, I just came to my conclusion based on what explanations that were given here in this thread and by the day on this message board (stats as a result of inferior competition doesn't deserve recognition).

As a member - TGee on TSPN (http://www.tspnsports.com/forums/showthread.php?93198-The-Sports-Network-Is-Giving-The-SWAC-The-Middle-Finger&p=1750610&viewfull=1#post1750610) said...

"You can't just win in conference games and expect to be respected nationally. When was the last time a SWAC team won a out of conference game of significance?"

The SWAC needs to get respected nationally and the only way to do that is to win games OOC that matter. The SWAC schools need to participate in the voting process and the publicity side of things to help - but ultimately, on the field results do dictate plenty.

At the end of the day, deserving individuals will get their proper due. The SWAC's Christian Anthony was probably a shoo-in for the BB Award this year before his injury. He was highly-voted upon last year. Henry Frazier did get the ER Award, so the SWAC is going to get their praise when it's due.

Winning helps... so take care of your business and it will work itself out.

And yes, the Watch List is questionable. No one is disagreeing with that. When you see two or three players from two or three schools, that's where the questions begin!

However, we are disagreeing on that the SWAC is not doing its part to help it's case! Through lack of wins, through lack of participation in the TSN voting poll, etc


Honestly, Coach Frazier is a friend of mine but who did he beat outside the SWAC last year to be deserving of the award? Here's the answer... nobody.

So he didn't deserve the award as there were more deserving coaches that play superior talent week in and week out in far more superior conferences within FCS play.

Did he beat anyone OOC? No - but he did catch the eyes of the nation by turning around a PVAMU program that was worse than awful and had fallen leap years behind your Texas Southern program? Absolutely! He took PVAMU on his shoulders and brought them to national prominence. That says a lot.

[3rd Coast Tiger]

I'll be back with a list of all the out of conference FCS opponents that the MEAC has beaten over the last 7 years (give me some time to do all the legwork).

[TexasTerror]

I just do not see much reason to discuss this and point fingers in different directions... compare PWCs to HBCUs, MEAC to SWAC, Obama to Palin, etc... it comes down to this...

TSN WATCH LIST
1) Opinion. The TSN Watch List is not doing a good job of including all the players that are deserving of being on it.
2) Fact. The TSN Watch List is not a 'set in stone' list of the finalists and will change, as it always has prior to the end of the season.
3) Fact. Kenn Rashad brought light to the subject of the TSN Watch List snubs and got Craig Haley's attention.

TSN/SWAC PARTICIPATION
1) Fact. The SWAC only has 6 of 10 schools participating in the process
2) Opinion. The SWAC would have better showings in the polls and awards if they had 100% participation.
3) Fact. The SWAC fan base now realizes one of the reasons that they are unable to get the proper recognition they are deserved for awards and the poll voting.

That sums up all you need to know. Both parties - the SWAC schools & TSN - are wrong. TSN can correct itself this year with their next release of the Watch List while the SWAC better get their act in gear for next year with 100% participation.

[3rd Coast Tiger]

I'll be back with a list of all the out of conference FCS opponents that the MEAC has beaten over the last 7 years (give me some time to do all the legwork).

Nothing yet... still looking.

Please stand by.

[WestCoastAggie]

+1..


Quid pro quo. Isn't in reality the SWAC that gives FCS the middle finger by having their own championship & not participating in the playoffs...

The fact that the SWAC and IVY does not participate in the FCS Playoffs should have NO EFFECT upon recognizing & rewarding players who have exemplified excellence on the gridiron.

[WestCoastAggie]

+1..


Nothing yet... still looking.

Please stand by.

Come on 3rd Coast, MEAC successes, or failures, have no revlevence upon this conversation. The fact that TSN has a blatent bias against the SWAC is very unfair to the kids who bust their butts playing for said teams in the SWAC.

And the fact that these awards given by TSN being named in honor of some of the greatest SWAC players/coaches is now serving as a major slap to the face of every BCF player, fan and administrator.

Just by looking at the list of TSN Voters, there is a serious bias given to the CAA, Big Sky, MVFC & Southern Conferences. That is very unfair to the rest of the teams and Conferences in FCS.

[WestCoastAggie]

As a member - TGee on TSPN (http://www.tspnsports.com/forums/showthread.php?93198-The-Sports-Network-Is-Giving-The-SWAC-The-Middle-Finger&p=1750610&viewfull=1#post1750610) said...

"You can't just win in conference games and expect to be respected nationally. When was the last time a SWAC team won a out of conference game of significance?"

The SWAC needs to get respected nationally and the only way to do that is to win games OOC that matter. The SWAC schools need to participate in the voting process and the publicity side of things to help - but ultimately, on the field results do dictate plenty.

At the end of the day, deserving individuals will get their proper due. The SWAC's Christian Anthony was probably a shoo-in for the BB Award this year before his injury. He was highly-voted upon last year. Henry Frazier did get the ER Award, so the SWAC is going to get their praise when it's due.

Winning helps... so take care of your business and it will work itself out.

And yes, the Watch List is questionable. No one is disagreeing with that. When you see two or three players from two or three schools, that's where the questions begin!

However, we are disagreeing on that the SWAC is not doing its part to help it's case! Through lack of wins, through lack of participation in the TSN voting poll, etc



Did he beat anyone OOC? No - but he did catch the eyes of the nation by turning around a PVAMU program that was worse than awful and had fallen leap years behind your Texas Southern program? Absolutely! He took PVAMU on his shoulders and brought them to national prominence. That says a lot.

A 2000 yard season rushing or a 4000 yard passing or a undefeated record coaching is still worth noting whether they played cupcakes OR not!

[TexasTerror]

Just do not want to get this list in the equation since there's been other non-related posts...


I just do not see much reason to discuss this and point fingers in different directions... compare PWCs to HBCUs, MEAC to SWAC, Obama to Palin, etc... it comes down to this...

TSN WATCH LIST
1) Opinion. The TSN Watch List is not doing a good job of including all the players that are deserving of being on it.
2) Fact. The TSN Watch List is not a 'set in stone' list of the finalists and will change, as it always has prior to the end of the season.
3) Fact. Kenn Rashad brought light to the subject of the TSN Watch List snubs and got Craig Haley's attention.

TSN/SWAC PARTICIPATION
1) Fact. The SWAC only has 6 of 10 schools participating in the process
2) Opinion. The SWAC would have better showings in the polls and awards if they had 100% participation.
3) Fact. The SWAC fan base now realizes one of the reasons that they are unable to get the proper recognition they are deserved for awards and the poll voting.

That sums up all you need to know. Both parties - the SWAC schools & TSN - are wrong. TSN can correct itself this year with their next release of the Watch List while the SWAC better get their act in gear for next year with 100% participation.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Please tell me how this list is an equal representation of all conferences in FCS?

To recap: Seventeen members representing CAA teams. Zero representing Patriot League teams.

[FormerPokeCenter]

The fact that the SWAC and IVY does not participate in the FCS Playoffs should have NO EFFECT upon recognizing & rewarding players who have exemplified excellence on the gridiron.

Excellence isn't a fungible nor easily quantifiable commodity. THAT's the very crux of the argument. If Neither conference ventures outside of itself much, how is it possible to decide what constitutes excellence? Mere statistical numbers?

Moreover, if you pretend that the FCS playoffs, in a division whose primary focus IS the playoffs, don't exist, then aren't you doing a disservice to the vast majority of players on teams who participate in the process?

By suggesing that playoff participation is of no moment and that head to head performances are irrelevant (since the Ivies and the SWAC can't be bothered to engage in them), aren't you simply suggesting that FCS be run like youth football, where everybody gets a trophy and an award?

[appfan2008]

I think the bigger issue here is why is the swac giving fcs the middle finger for not participating in the playoffs... though on a side note they are both putting up watch list numbers...

[State Line Liquors]

Rather than the middle finger, it feels more like a 'kiss my @$$' hand gesture or a 'shocker', or a 'wacking off' gesture, or one of those where you press your tongue to the inside of your cheek and pretend like your fellating someone, or one of those moves where you move the back side of your hand off your chin (I believe referred to as the 'fangul' commonly) xlolx

[FanofFCS]

According to TSN's site, there is a Payton/Buchanan update on Monday, October 25. The original blogger didn't mention this. Also, he fails to say that Prairie View A&M QB K.J. Black was on the Payton Watch List to start the season and that Alcorn State DE Malcolm Taylor, Grambling DE Christian Anthony and Southern S Jason House all started the season on the Buchanan Watch List. That's not too bad for one conference.

[Catmendue2]

Come on 3rd Coast, MEAC successes, or failures, have no revlevence upon this conversation. The fact that TSN has a blatent bias against the SWAC is very unfair to the kids who bust their butts playing for said teams in the SWAC.

And the fact that these awards given by TSN being named in honor of some of the greatest SWAC players/coaches is now serving as a major slap to the face of every BCF player, fan and administrator.

Just by looking at the list of TSN Voters, there is a serious bias given to the CAA, Big Sky, MVFC & Southern Conferences. That is very unfair to the rest of the teams and Conferences in FCS.
What you said right here is why I and most SWAC fans want nothing to do with the playoffs. The FCS is control by same group and they decide every thing from playoff bids, to rankings and even the home teams for that(really dont matter which team is higher ranked) as long as they come from one of them you traveling.

[SalukiJim]

Nothing yet... still looking.

Please stand by.

Wake me up when you get something...I'm not gonna hold my breath...
xcoffeex xboringx

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

What you said right here is why I and most SWAC fans want nothing to do with the playoffs. The FCS is control by same group and they decide every thing from playoff bids, to rankings and even the home teams for that(really dont matter which team is higher ranked) as long as they come from one of them you traveling.

Checkmate.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

What you said right here is why I and most SWAC fans want nothing to do with the playoffs. The FCS is control by same group and they decide every thing from playoff bids, to rankings and even the home teams for that(really dont matter which team is higher ranked) as long as they come from one of them you traveling.

That's bullcrap. The guidelines for the playoffs are clearly published, and site selection is based on seeding, and after that on quality of facilities and attendance. None of that is institutional bias, it's set up so that the most people will come out to see the games and the most money will be raised to cover playoff costs.

The SWAC even has a representative in the selection committe so you can't say you are being left out there.

The reason the CAA, MVC, SoCon, and Big Sky have had such success is because the greater level of skill from those conferences, not because the SWAC wouldn't be given a fair shot if they bothered to show up.

[jstate83]

Quid pro quo. Isn't in reality the SWAC that gives FCS the middle finger by having their own championship & not participating in the playoffs...

Has that ever stopped these nutt cases from ranking the IVY league and including their players in the post season award hunt?
ANSWER...................HELL NO!!

[TexasTerror]

What you said right here is why I and most SWAC fans want nothing to do with the playoffs. The FCS is control by same group and they decide every thing from playoff bids, to rankings and even the home teams for that(really dont matter which team is higher ranked) as long as they come from one of them you traveling.

You have no room to complain...

Not all the SWAC schools are willing to participate in the TSN poll. 60% participation...


The SWAC schools are giving the middle finger to their own players, staff...

Before you complain about TSN, let's talk facts. Only 60% of the SWAC schools (plus the SWAC office) are represented in the voting pool for the TSN Poll and the TSN awards - including the Robinson, Payton and Buchanan Awards. The league's own efforts to promote their schools, players needs to be addressed in all of this...

As I said on AGS, "At the beginning of the season, I know TSN reaches out to EVERY school at the FCS level to participate. If the SWAC school representatives chose not to participate, shame on them. I really think this is the case - since it seems a clear majority of FCS sports information directors participate in the poll or at the very least, a media member from each school. Heck, there was that BCF magazine that several SWAC schools did not have preview articles in. The SIDs wrote all the articles, so for a few schools from the SWAC, the SIDs just did not respond."

The Watch List situation is deserving of a look, but I've already criticized Craig Haley enough for his poor job this year with covering FCS - numerous times on AGS! He's stretched himself too thin and done bad at everything - glad TSPN is on board in criticizing him too. So, congrats to all of you for agreeing with me, at least once! He's the one that calls those shots... can you believe you agreed with me? Nice! :)

The SWAC schools need to point fingers at each other for lack of votes in the polls & awards, before pointing fingers elsewhere for anything, but the Watch List.

In conclusion, TSPN is right for criticizing the Watch List - but I do not believe this to be the final version and I'll join you in criticism of this second variation of the list - but the SWAC schools are wrong for not participating at 100 percent in the TSN Poll and award voting.

[mikebigg]

Excellence isn't a fungible nor easily quantifiable commodity. THAT's the very crux of the argument. If Neither conference ventures outside of itself much, how is it possible to decide what constitutes excellence? Mere statistical numbers?

Moreover, if you pretend that the FCS playoffs, in a division whose primary focus IS the playoffs, don't exist, then aren't you doing a disservice to the vast majority of players on teams who participate in the process?

By suggesing that playoff participation is of no moment and that head to head performances are irrelevant (since the Ivies and the SWAC can't be bothered to engage in them), aren't you simply suggesting that FCS be run like youth football, where everybody gets a trophy and an award?

Did Georgia Southern participate in the playoffs in 2007 when Jayson Foster won it? Not saying he wasn't a worthy winner, but does he get credit just for playing in a conference that goes to the playoffs even if his team was tied for 3rd place and was 7-4 overall?

[MACHIAVELLI]

As stated on GoGrambling.com.....

The Payton Watch list will be updated on Oct. 25th. I am sure Frank will be added. I believe it will be far too late for him to get the saturation he deserves in the voters minds. As stated in another thread they have 6 RBs on the Payton Watch list. 5 are behind Frank. 1 of the 6 is not even in the top 50 RB's in FCS.

RUSHING

Rank Player G Car Net TD Avg Ydspgm
1. Nate Eachus, Colgate 6 181 1016 12 5.61 169.33
2. Frank Warren, Grambling 6 131 933 9 7.12 155.50
3. Nick Schwieger, Dartmouth 4 110 585 5 5.32 146.25
4. Henry Harris, Southeast Mo. St. 7 178 1020 10 5.73 145.71
5. Andrew Pierce, Delaware 7 156 880 10 5.64 125.71
6. Taiwan Jones, Eastern Wash. 6 103 734 6 7.13 122.33
6. Eric Breitenstein, Wofford 6 105 734 13 6.99 122.33
8. Bryan Hilliard, Sacramento St. 6 144 722 7 5.01 120.33
9. Larry McCoy, Duquesne 7 156 818 6 5.24 116.86
10. Tim Flanders, Sam Houston St. 6 113 699 9 6.19 116.50
11. Myles Russ, Robert Morris 7 135 806 5 5.97 115.14
12. Everette Benjamin, Central Conn. St. 6 130 690 5 5.31 115.00
13. Kyle Minett, South Dakota St. 6 134 688 5 5.13 114.67
14. Jamaine Cook, Youngstown St. 7 133 781 7 5.87 111.57
15. Mike Mayhew, N.C. A&T 7 149 722 5 4.85 103.14
16. Rudell Small, Jacksonville 7 114 720 7 6.32 102.86
17. DeAngelo Branche, Norfolk St. 6 129 610 6 4.73 101.67
18. Gino Gordon, Harvard 5 71 507 5 7.14 101.40
19. Chris Evans, Samford 7 127 707 5 5.57 101.00
20. Tirrell Rennie, UNI 6 107 601 6 5.62 100.17
21. Carlos Anderson, UNI 6 91 598 2 6.57 99.67
22. D.J. McNorton, North Dakota St. 7 110 695 5 6.32 99.29
23. Darrius Gates, Indiana St. 6 99 587 10 5.93 97.83
24. Cory McCaffrey, Portland St. 6 106 584 5 5.51 97.33
25. John Griffin, Massachusetts 6 119 581 5 4.88 96.83
26. Chris Massey, South Carolina St. 6 115 575 5 5.00 95.83
27. Bryce Flowers, Western Ill. 7 105 667 7 6.35 95.29
28. Orenzo Davis, Montana St. 7 109 665 6 6.10 95.00
29. Brock Jackolski, Stony Brook 6 81 549 5 6.78 91.50
29. Zach Bauman, Northern Ariz. 6 137 549 8 4.01 91.50
31. Shakir Bell, Indiana St. 6 68 543 2 7.99 90.50
32. Chris Douglas, Missouri St. 6 74 532 6 7.19 88.67
33. Miguel Maysonet, Stony Brook 6 88 526 3 5.98 87.67
34. Dante' Thomas, Tennessee St. 7 100 612 5 6.12 87.43
35. Antwon Chisholm, Hampton 5 61 426 3 6.98 85.20
36. Erroll Wynn, Chattanooga 5 67 425 3 6.34 85.00
37. Jaashawn Jones, Delaware St. 6 111 503 2 4.53 83.83
38. Jonathan Hernandez, Massachusetts 6 125 500 7 4.00 83.33
39. Matt Scheible, Southeast Mo. St. 7 98 580 3 5.92 82.86
40. Caulton Ray, Western Ill. 7 126 571 7 4.53 81.57
41. Jesse Turner, Nicholls St. 6 73 479 7 6.56 79.83
42. DeAndre Presley, Appalachian St. 6 75 477 7 6.36 79.50
43. Stephen Johnston, Missouri St. 6 91 472 3 5.19 78.67
44. Andrew Smith, Albany (NY) 5 96 391 3 4.07 78.20
45. Mitch Allen, Wofford 6 81 467 2 5.77 77.83
46. Ryan White, Austin Peay 6 80 459 3 5.74 76.50
47. Karrington Bush, Texas St. 6 88 453 5 5.15 75.50
48. Jared Turcotte, Maine 6 99 452 3 4.57 75.33
49. Donald Babers, Prairie View 7 136 522 7 3.84 74.57
50. Jonathan Grimes, William & Mary 6 106 433 7 4.08 72.17

FYI: Prior to the last Payton Watch update Frank Warren was #1 in FCS.

[mikebigg]

Frank Warren

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1277042

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=81633&draftyear=2011&genpos=RB

[JohnStOnge]

Somebody probably already said this but the Southern, Big Sky, and CAA are much stronger conferences than the SWAC. It's kind of like if you have some running back tearing it up playing in the MAC. It's not likely he's going to get consideration for the Heisman trophy regardless of how impressive his statistics are.

[gram4life]

Somebody probably already said this but the Southern, Big Sky, and CAA are much stronger conferences than the SWAC. It's kind of like if you have some running back tearing it up playing in the MAC. It's not likely he's going to get consideration for the Heisman trophy regardless of how impressive his statistics are.

So why did McNair get consideration for the Heisman? And he also won the Walter Payton Award? I mean he played in the SWAC.

[WestCoastAggie]

To recap: Seventeen members representing CAA teams. Zero representing Patriot League teams.
Patriot League Voters: Charles Bare, Bill Bowman, Joe DiBari, Matt Dougherty, Keith Groller, Jeremiah Hergott, Steve Lomangino, Eric Malanowski, Matt Markus, Ryan Sakamoto

Sorry about that LFN!

[WestCoastAggie]

So why did McNair get consideration for the Heisman? And he also won the Walter Payton Award? I mean he played in the SWAC.

Now THAT'S a really good question to ask.

[Panther88]

So why did McNair get consideration for the Heisman? And he also won the Walter Payton Award? I mean he played in the SWAC.

You shouldn've asked that question. Now it'll be crickets and SWAC folx in the thread commenting strictly. :(

There is no logical answer other than the obvious. xreadx

[TexasTerror]

So why did McNair get consideration for the Heisman? And he also won the Walter Payton Award? I mean he played in the SWAC.

Did you follow the SWAC then? Do you follow it now? McNair transcended FCS football and the SWAC was a much better product back then. The SWAC has gone backwards and kept going in that direction. Either way, the SWAC did not get screwed by TSN, the SWAC helped screw the SWAC!


You shouldn've asked that question. Now it'll be crickets and SWAC folx in the thread commenting strictly. :(

There is no logical answer other than the obvious. xreadx

Yep - the SWAC product has tanked! No doubt about it. From program(s) that were one competitive nationally and funded relatively equally to their counterparts, to one that struggles with their "books" and has routinely scraped the bottom of the barrel in FCS (and across all sports in Div I).


The Payton Watch list will be updated on Oct. 25th. I am sure Frank will be added. I believe it will be far too late for him to get the saturation he deserves in the voters minds. As stated in another thread they have 6 RBs on the Payton Watch list. 5 are behind Frank. 1 of the 6 is not even in the top 50 RB's in FCS.

I am not sure how much the TSN voters actually follow the entire Payton List until ahead of the vote. They hear a few names here and there, but it largely falls on the Grambling SID to really promote the product. If he is actively nominating Warren for awards (and especially if he's getting them), it goes a long way... will let you make the call whether or not your SID is doing a good job. I seem to recall plenty of negative posts on GoGrambling.

And does it really matter? The SWAC has shown their disinterest in the TSN poll and voting for their guys for TSN honors already this year (and in previous years). Why should you care if the people who get paid to care do not?

[BlueHenSinfonian]

When McNair played for Alcorn the SWAC was still participating in the playoffs, and in fact Alcorn went twice while he was there - they haven't been back since.

[FormerPokeCenter]

Did Georgia Southern participate in the playoffs in 2007 when Jayson Foster won it? Not saying he wasn't a worthy winner, but does he get credit just for playing in a conference that goes to the playoffs even if his team was tied for 3rd place and was 7-4 overall?

All Jayson Foster did that year was beat the eventual National Champion, Appalachian State....plus, they played South Dakota State and FBS school Colorado State, so they had a pretty tough OOC schedule too....

Would you prefer that Foster was only graded on his statistics, with no consideration about WHO he got them against?

It's not like Georgia Southern had an OOC that was filled with Langston or Miles College ;)

[rexreed]

McNair put up obscene numbers- it was impossible to ignore even in the 90's. Do you remember the regular season I-AA loss to a sub par SLC team? Yeah, another example of the SWAC not quite cutting the mustard when a heisman candidate loses to the SLC. Didn't Alcorn pretty much run the table on the rest of the SWAC when Steve was a senior?

[lilrj1919]

Warren should have been on the list period. There is no way getting around it. Those people at TSN know what they are doing.

[mikebigg]

All Jayson Foster did that year was beat the eventual National Champion, Appalachian State....plus, they played South Dakota State and FBS school Colorado State, so they had a pretty tough OOC schedule too....

Would you prefer that Foster was only graded on his statistics, with no consideration about WHO he got them against?

It's not like Georgia Southern had an OOC that was filled with Langston or Miles College ;)

Colorado State was 2-9 and in addition to beating Nat'l Champ App State, they also lost to conference teams that finished beneath them. It's not like Grambling's OOC record this year is against Langston or Miles College. True we play Concordia but we open with LaTech who would beat any of the rest of the FCS schools in the state.

TT like to talk the "SWAC is in decline" but we don't selectively schedule the weaker teams of the Southland either. True that we lost to McNeese in the past, but we also have recent (this decade) wins against two Southland foes in Nichols and Northwestern. I think we could have beaten either of them this season... we didn't avoid any SLC's or anyone else this season. The schedules just didn't match up... we don't run!

[mikebigg]

McNair put up obscene numbers- it was impossible to ignore even in the 90's. Do you remember the regular season I-AA loss to a sub par SLC team? Yeah, another example of the SWAC not quite cutting the mustard when a heisman candidate loses to the SLC. Didn't Alcorn pretty much run the table on the rest of the SWAC when Steve was a senior?

No they did not...

[FormerPokeCenter]

Mike, I've never felt like Grambling runs. Y'all have been nothing but honorable. When we played, you guys went out of your way to make the games happen. After dropping the first game by a wide margin, y'all got after us in the second one. I enjoyed the series and would love to see it again.
But, it's like when Bruce put up his crazy numbers and finished as the runner-up in the Payton, the stats came against some "turrible" defenses ;)
I feel your pain on having kids overlooked. We've had a few good ones either get ignored or not make the watch list until the last update....that may be because the Southland is perceived as being weak....

[TexasTerror]

Warren should have been on the list period. There is no way getting around it. Those people at TSN know what they are doing.

And the SWAC fans continue to not let their schools take some of the blame... no participation in the playoffs needed. How about getting your schools to participate in the voting process? How about getting your school reps to pub your guys?

[Catmendue2]

Checkmate.

I guess he didn't see Elon sitting in the top 25 all season with a losing record, I don't care what league you play in, if you have a losing record you are not a top 25 team. Take SCSU they sat in number 10 spot for three years lose one game and almost dropout of the top 25. All those teams with 7-3 records don't prove any conference is superior to another. Now that Crap.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Another possible issue:

Perhaps my blog posting will shed some light:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/10/friday-water-cooler-polls.html


Looking at this data, pity your school in the TSN poll if you're from the Gulf region. Your school, loosely, will have 1 voter per school. Contrast to the Northeast (1.26), South (1.5) or West (1.64).

Not so much SWAC underrepresentation, but Gulf region underrepresentation.

[TexasTerror]

Not so much SWAC underrepresentation, but Gulf region underrepresentation.

And within the regions, there is probably the least interaction in the Gulf region due to the SWAC's inability to schedule out of conference dates against the SLC, let alone anyone else. Of course - the last few times the SLC has dealt with the SWAC, there's been contract issues coming from the SWAC side (see Alcorn/SLU, see PVAMU/SHSU, see the long overdue fixing of SU/McNeese and lastly, UAPB/UCA). Props to Grambling (v NWST) and TSU (v TXST - though those were guarantee games for TSU) for handling their business...

[Catmendue2]

Every team in the SWAC is competitive except MVSU. The top five team in the SWAC could compete in any league in the FCS so where is the weakness. The same holds true for the Southland, MEAC, OVC and most other conferences. Take Indiana St compare them to Grambling or Mcneese what have they done in last ten years that makes anyone think they should be a top 25 team and that Grambling, Jackson and Texas Southern shouldn't be, PV was a preseason top 25 team where is the weakness. Besides SU which is having a down year, the Bamas and Alcorn what makes BCU win over SCSU more important when most of the lower ranked MEAC teams wouldn't beat any team in the SWAC. Playoffs. From top to bottom the SWAC is just as strong as the MEAC, Southland, OVC and several others with autobids.

[WestCoastAggie]

Question:

If the CAA had as many voting members of the media as the MEAC, would Richmond had been ranked when they had a below .500 record?

Those 17 voters might be inflating the the spots with the CAA. I am not sure that all 7 CAA teams would be ranked or ranked as high as they are in this poll if the CAA had less voters then they do now despite the fact that the conference is perceived to be the best of the best in FCS Land.

[TexasTerror]

Every team in the SWAC is competitive except MVSU. The top five team in the SWAC could compete in any league in the FCS so where is the weakness. The same holds true for the Southland, MEAC, OVC and most other conferences. Take Indiana St compare them to Grambling or Mcneese what have they done in last ten years that makes anyone think they should be a top 25 team and that Grambling, Jackson and Texas Southern shouldn't be, PV was a preseason top 25 team where is the weakness. Besides SU which is having a down year, the Bamas and Alcorn what makes BCU win over SCSU more important when most of the lower ranked MEAC teams wouldn't beat any team in the SWAC. Playoffs. From top to bottom the SWAC is just as strong as the MEAC, Southland, OVC and several others with autobids.

LOL! Sure have not proved it on the field of play AND it definitely shows in the ratings/rankings. Outside of a Grambling win against a winless Northwestern State program, believe the SLC had won the previous five, six games against the SWAC.

Catmendue, you really have no wiggle room to create a debate on the subject since the SWAC simply 'opts out' of becoming an FCS team due to their nine-game mandate. Forget the playoff discussion, by playing the nine-game mandate and the schedules you do (especially those who do not even play the full 11 games - embarassing), you guys really have no leg to stand on in debating whether you are better than any other conferences...

And the gap between the others and the SWAC only grows as the budget disparity does. MVSU has a budget of $3.3M, which is ridiculous and they would not be able to compete at Div II. A few other SWAC budgets are not much better and it's only getting worse.

[Catmendue2]

LOL! Sure have not proved it on the field of play AND it definitely shows in the ratings/rankings. Outside of a Grambling win against a winless Northwestern State program, believe the SLC had won the previous five, six games against the SWAC.

Catmendue, you really have no wiggle room to create a debate on the subject since the SWAC simply 'opts out' of becoming an FCS team due to their nine-game mandate. Forget the playoff discussion, by playing the nine-game mandate and the schedules you do (especially those who do not even play the full 11 games - embarassing), you guys really have no leg to stand on in debating whether you are better than any other conferences...

And the gap between the others and the SWAC only grows as the budget disparity does. MVSU has a budget of $3.3M, which is ridiculous and they would not be able to compete at Div II. A few other SWAC budgets are not much better and it's only getting worse.

No part of this makes any sense/cents. If you think anyone in the FCS is happy with budgets ask the AD at Montana and then buy you a big bottle of Jim Jones' koolaid and drink the the whole thang.

The last time I looked Southland conference hasn't won much either except amongst each other, I guess that explains why the Southland participant in the playoffs hasn't made it out of the second round in years.

[TexasTerror]

No part of this makes any sense/cents. If you think anyone in the FCS is happy with budgets ask the AD at Montana and then buy you a big bottle of Jim Jones' koolaid and drink the the whole thang.

No one in FCS is happy with budgets, but there is an OBVIOUS disparity between the SWAC schools and those of other conferences you mention - including the MEAC and SLC. Half the SLC is within $1.5-2M of $10M, if not over. I do not think there is one SWAC school (with possibly the exception of TSU) that comes within that threshold. Each school in the SLC has a budget that is twice that of MVSU, that's for sure! Can not say that for the SWAC schools.


The last time I looked Southland conference hasn't won much either except amongst each other, I guess that explains why the Southland participant in the playoffs hasn't made it out of the second round in years.

The SLC has gotten participants into the semifinals in 2004 and 2005. Yes, that is a bit dated - but what justify years? The league had two teams in the playoffs last year. We're getting ready to have an SFA team well-positioned to make a run this year and may be able to sneak a second team in.

Find it hard for a SWAC fan to talk smack about the SLC when it comes to competition considering your league has yet to win a contest against the SLC this year, while dropping over 50 across all sports. And can we keep smack off of here? We're talking budget disparity and results - all factual information available online thanks to the Southland (for results, since the SWAC web site is not always up-to-date) and the government for budget.

[MACHIAVELLI]

And the SWAC fans continue to not let their schools take some of the blame... no participation in the playoffs needed. How about getting your schools to participate in the voting process? How about getting your school reps to pub your guys?

Are schools pubbing guys the only way to get them on the watch list? So everybody on the watch list is being pubbed by the schools they play for? Like was said earlier before the last Payton Watch update Frank Warren was the #1 RB in FCS. Even you can't be that naive.

[MACHIAVELLI]

.
But, it's like when Bruce put up his crazy numbers and finished as the runner-up in the Payton, the stats came against some "turrible" defenses ;)
.

If the SWAC defenses were/are so turrible why isn't every QB in the SWAC putting up crazy numbers?

[FormerPokeCenter]

Every team in the SWAC is competitive except MVSU. The top five team in the SWAC could compete in any league in the FCS so where is the weakness. The same holds true for the Southland, MEAC, OVC and most other conferences. Take Indiana St compare them to Grambling or Mcneese what have they done in last ten years that makes anyone think they should be a top 25 team and that Grambling, Jackson and Texas Southern shouldn't be, PV was a preseason top 25 team where is the weakness. Besides SU which is having a down year, the Bamas and Alcorn what makes BCU win over SCSU more important when most of the lower ranked MEAC teams wouldn't beat any team in the SWAC. Playoffs. From top to bottom the SWAC is just as strong as the MEAC, Southland, OVC and several others with autobids.

Cat, no smack intended, but the records in head to head competition shows conclusively that the SWAC isn't as strong as the Southland. It's not even close. And the Southland isn't as strong as the Big Sky, the SoCon or the CAA

[FormerPokeCenter]

If the SWAC defenses were/are so turrible why isn't every QB in the SWAC putting up crazy numbers?

There's a bunch of reasons for a QB not putting up big numbers...too many variables to say....I'm not suggesting that there aren't great athletes in the SWAC. I'm just saying that when somebody does put up crazy numbers, you gotta look at who it came against...

When Eugene put up his numbers and Doug Williams got pissed because the Gordon kid from Villanova won, we played both teams. Eugene had to run for his life against us. Gordon, despite a broken thumb was very effective...

[mikebigg]

There's a bunch of reasons for a QB not putting up big numbers...too many variables to say....I'm not suggesting that there aren't great athletes in the SWAC. I'm just saying that when somebody does put up crazy numbers, you gotta look at who it came against...

When Eugene put up his numbers and Doug Williams got pissed because the Gordon kid from Villanova won, we played both teams. Eugene had to run for his life against us. Gordon, despite a broken thumb was very effective...

As a former center, wouldn't you say that the reason for that had a lot to do with the offensive line play moreso than the two qb's?

[Catmendue2]

Are schools pubbing guys the only way to get them on the watch list? So everybody on the watch list is being pubbed by the schools they play for? Like was said earlier before the last Payton Watch update Frank Warren was the #1 RB in FCS. Even you can't be that naive.

You meant that much of a hater. He is that naive and than some.

[TexasTerror]

You guys are pretty naive...

I said the TSN Payton Watch List is questionable. I've said it several times - here and on TSPN.

Everything else, part of the blame falls on the SWAC - for lack of participation in TSN Polls/Awards and poor OOC scheduling that does them no favors in extending the 'reach' of their schools, players (and showing just how competitive or not so much the SWAC is).

If Warren is not on the updated Payton List that comes out this week, we'll all fill Craig Haley's e-mail box together. If the SWAC is not at 100% participation in next year's TSN Poll/Awards, we can all write the SWAC school representatives together.

Let's realize that the SWAC is far from perfect when it comes to people doing their jobs adequately. The SIDs lack of participation in the TSN Poll/Awards process shows the SWAC is not interested in promoting their talented players. Craig Haley can do so much and he's not good at doing it to begin with. The SWAC is not helping him in the least bit.

[smallcollegefbfan]

I will point out that last year Henry Frazier of Prairie View became the first coach from a SWAC school to win the Eddie Robinson Award. Also, Grambling defensive end Christian Anthony was in the top-five of the Buchanan Award balloting. He was No. 2 behind Arthur Moats on my ballot. QB Bryant Lee of Southern was one of the Payton Award finalists. I can't say what is going on this year, but Frank Warren and Raymond Webber would be on my watch list. In 2007-08, there were SWAC representatives on the Payton, Buchanan and Robinson lists.


You did an excellent job on the watch lists Mr. C. I think Warren should definitely be on the next update but I don't know about Webber. I have seen him and he is good but they mostly throw short passes to him. They set him up to be wide open with screens and quick throws and don't really deep with him much, and when I say deep I mean past 15 yards. He is only averaging 12.5 yards per catch.

[FormerPokeCenter]

As a former center, wouldn't you say that the reason for that had a lot to do with the offensive line play moreso than the two qb's?

Again, that's one of those variable things...it could be the O line, or it could be a function of timing later in the year, or it could be a function of the qb's ability to identify the 2nd and 3rd read, or a function of the type of offense. Are they playing short quick stuff or longer, more vertical "slower to develop" routes. That's why it's important to factor WHO the numbers are coming against ;)

[TexasTerror]

And Kenn Rashad rejoices...

http://www.tspnsports.com/2010/10/25/gramblings-warren-is-finally-on-the-payton-watch-list.htm

Wonder if his next 'blasting' of TSN will come courtesy of the poor participation by the SWAC (60%) in the polls, awards process.