The Holy Cross at Colgate thread

[Lehigh Football Nation]

At the risk of getting a big "who cares" from sader87 (he is on your block list now, right?), this is a huge game this weekend that sets the tone the rest of the way.

Holy Cross already is 0-1 in PL play, and another loss would doom their chances at repeating. Their offense has also struggled against any team not named Fordham or Howard so far this year. A win puts them in the discussion for the PL title. A loss in effect knocks them out.

As for Colgate, you can't find a hotter team than the Raiders, who have bulldozed three straight opponents by a combined 122-16 score. A win - and a win next weekend at Lehigh - would put the Raiders firmly in the drivers seat, with only wins over five-loss Bucknell and Lafayette to go to clinch the title and autobid.

A huge game for the PL this weekend up in Hamilton.

[Sader87]

I care about HC & Colgate...it's the rest of the PL I don't care about.

Saders in an upset....31-27...Colgate is over-rated. They have only really beaten 3 patsies, beat Monmouth by the length of a football and were drilled by the two schools on their schedule that still actually take football seriously.

[carney2]

At the risk of getting a big "who cares" from sader87


I care about HC & Colgate...it's the rest of the PL I don't care about.

He cares, but is selective in his concern.

[Bogus Megapardus]

He cares, but is selective in his concern.

The MplsBison of the Patriot League? What would we do without Sader87?

[TheValleyRaider]

Saders in an upset....31-27...Colgate is over-rated. They have only really beaten 3 patsies, beat Monmouth by the length of a football and were drilled by the two schools on their schedule that still actually take football seriously.

Yeah, such a patsy, that Georgetown. It's not like they beat the Cross this season or anything... xreadx

[Sader87]

Yeah, such a patsy, that Georgetown. It's not like they beat the Cross this season or anything... xreadx

Both the Patriot League and the Ancient 8 have devolved into essentially decent D2 or D3 football where anyone can defeat anybody on any given Saturday.

[Sam]

May the best team win... I say Biddle keeps his starters in the whole game and we will see about over rated .Tommy Gilmore was looking to get out before this year he put in for the Princeton job as well as a few others? Tommy knows what is about to happen ........ This will not be "Any given Saturday": this will be the "Taken Saturday "

[Franks Tanks]

Both the Patriot League and the Ancient 8 have devolved into essentially decent D2 or D3 football where anyone can defeat anybody on any given Saturday.

Once again you show you know nothing about college football. The Ivy and Patriot teams are nothing like a D-III team--not even close. Stop spouting your garbage. Also because any team can win on any week means a league is D-III? I guess the SEC is D-III then. South Carolina beats Alabama and then falls to Kentucky. Florida loses to Miss. State... that D-III SEC!

Oh and to further demonstrate how little you know you think Cross has a chance. Gate is rolling and quite talented, and I think they win by 20.

[Franks Tanks]

But Carney the Patriot League ruined their program. In the early 80's they played UMASS and Colgate and Harvard and had huge crowds at Fitton. Today well they still play those teams.

[Sader87]

The PL teams overall (sans scholarships) are closer to good D2 and very good D3 teams than they are to the very best FCS and average FBS teams...I have no doubt in this. There simply is nowhere near the overall athleticism (and depth) today, that the better PL teams (HC and Colgate in the 1980's) had before scholarships were abolished.

[Franks Tanks]

The PL teams overall (sans scholarships) are closer to good D2 and very good D3 teams than they are to the very best FCS and average FBS teams...I have no doubt in this. There simply is nowhere near the overall athleticism (and depth) today, that the better PL teams (HC and Colgate in the 1980's) had before scholarships were abolished.

Colgate never gave football scholarships.

[Sader87]

Colgate never gave football scholarships.

Wink, wink, nudge, nudge...technically they didn't, but they were getting much better overall talent in the 70's and 80's than they do today.

[Franks Tanks]

Wink, wink, nudge, nudge...technically they didn't, but they were getting much better overall talent in the 70's and 80's than they do today.

So did Princeton and Yale. They have the same admission and aid procedures. Actually they perhaps give more aid today.

[TheValleyRaider]

Both the Patriot League and the Ancient 8 have devolved into essentially decent D2 or D3 football where anyone can defeat anybody on any given Saturday.

xlolx xblahblahx xrolleyesx
Some serious excuse-making going on there. Ask Georgetown just how flukey watching Nate Eachus out-gain their entire offense was


Wink, wink, nudge, nudge...technically they didn't, but...

Prove it

It's only Tuesday. We're probably headed towards the Smack forum if this is going to be our pace...

[Sader87]

So did Princeton and Yale. They have the same admission and aid procedures. Actually they perhaps give more aid today.

As I stated earlier, due to a combination of dropping scholarships, adhering to a strict AI/academic band system etc etc, both the PL and the Ivies have plummeted in overall football prowess in the last decade vis a vis other FCS schools/leagues in the East. Just this year Fordham lost to D2 Assumption, Wagner beat Cornell, Monmouth and Sacred Heart nearly beat Colgate and Dartmouth respectively etc. etc. never mind the absolute beat downs the PL has taken from the CAA and SoCon this year. It's a shame and will only get worse if the PL remains non-scholly.

[ngineer]

With Brown & White blood, I'm hoping the 'saders can get it together to knock off the Raiders and 'soften them up' for us the following week. What time is the kickoff?

[Bogus Megapardus]

We're probably headed towards the Smack forum if this is going to be our pace...

It's been established, historically, that Patriot League posts are exempted (by special dispensation) from relegation to the smack page. Once Lafayette/Lehigh week gets here, for example, we'd better not see any deviation from this long-established policy. Patriot League smack is an art form to be appreciated (and possibly emulated) by all. To all others - Learn from it, and enjoy.

Moderators of this forum hereby are on notice - Whatsoever you might think about the stature of our humble little sports conference in the grand scheme of FCS football, we will not accept blindly relocation of our well-intentioned (if somewhat acerbic) smack-like threads as the season winds to a close.

That is all.

[Bogus Megapardus]

As I stated earlier, due to a combination of dropping scholarships, adhering to a strict AI/academic band system etc etc, both the PL and the Ivies have plummeted in overall football prowess in the last decade vis a vis other FCS schools/leagues in the East. Just this year Fordham lost to D2 Assumption, Wagner beat Cornell, Monmouth and Sacred Heart nearly beat Colgate and Dartmouth respectively etc. etc. never mind the absolute beat downs the PL has taken from the CAA and SoCon this year. It's a shame and will only get worse if the PL remains non-scholly.

And I will say it again - I appreciate the opportunity to continue the rivalries we have enjoyed against our peer institutions in that other league for more than a hundred years. These are places I enjoy visiting each fall; I look forward not only to the game but to the interaction with the alumni of our opponents as well.

As you are well aware, a very many of us hold undergraduate degrees from our Patriot schools in addition to graduate degrees from those "other" places. This has been going on amongst us for as long as football has been played.

Sometimes it's best not to seek the greener grass when your own pasture has been especially well-kept for so long.

[Go...gate]

And I will say it again - I appreciate the opportunity to continue the rivalries we have enjoyed against our peer institutions in that other league for more than a hundred years. These are places I enjoy visiting each fall; I look forward not only to the game but to the interaction with the alumni of our opponents as well.

As you are well aware, a very many of us hold undergraduate degrees from our Patriot schools in addition to graduate degrees from those "other" places. This has been going on amongst us for as long as football has been played.

Sometimes it's best not to seek the greener grass when your own pasture has been especially well-kept for so long.

Amen, Bogus.

[Go...gate]

Wink, wink, nudge, nudge...technically they didn't, but they were getting much better overall talent in the 70's and 80's than they do today.

Concededly correct. The scholarship thing, however, was not nearly as "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" as you believe. It was a different time and Colgate cost much less (and gave much less financial aid). Also, middle-class parents were more willing and able to sacrifice to accept a partial "need-based" grant and supplement it with their own income. This also happened at the Ivies, whom Colgate modeled its financial aid policies after. And this was not unique at many other institutions. Until 1972, it also happened at Rutgers, which offered only about 30-35 full FB scholarships a year during the tenure of Coach John Bateman, requiring the partial scholarship funding of a good part of RU's FB squad. Scholarships only increased at RU after 1973. It would be interesting to hear from our other older brethren on the Board as to what happened at Lafayette, Lehigh, Bucknell, Temple, Richmond and others. It was not as expensive a sport in those days and athletic budgets were a lot leaner.

[Sader87]

And I will say it again - I appreciate the opportunity to continue the rivalries we have enjoyed against our peer institutions in that other league for more than a hundred years. These are places I enjoy visiting each fall; I look forward not only to the game but to the interaction with the alumni of our opponents as well.

As you are well aware, a very many of us hold undergraduate degrees from our Patriot schools in addition to graduate degrees from those "other" places. This has been going on amongst us for as long as football has been played.

Sometimes it's best not to seek the greener grass when your own pasture has been especially well-kept for so long.

I never said we should drop the Ivies just that both the PL and the IL have to improve their product on the field somehow (schollies, more aid, losing the AI etc) or both leagues are going to continue to slide into football irrelevancy at the FCS level.

[Ken_Z]

I never said we should drop the Ivies just that both the PL and the IL have to improve their product on the field somehow (schollies, more aid, losing the AI etc) or both leagues are going to continue to slide into football irrelevancy at the FCS level.

you constantly belittle the PL on this board, which is hardly a constructive reaction to the situation as you see it. do you have dialogue with the leadership at HC? they seem to be among the most reluctant to reinstate scholarships? do you offer to put money or other forms of support where your mouth is?

what really aggravates is that your posts belittle the PL, often singling out HC and Colgate as the only schools that downgraded their level of play. your schools leadership is who has elected to lead HC down this path, not the other PL schools. why not direct you anger at them rather than the league?

[Doc QB]

If somebody remebers the details, could they please drop a quick post re-hashing the "why" as to Holy Cross dropping scholarships...I would assume it was far more than inclusion in, at that time, just a football conference (colonial). With all of 87Sader (who I hope is not acutally Gordie Lockbaum, I would think he would respect his school and its history more) comments regarding the Big East as a destination then...I wonder about the details of why they derailed a proud program in the 90's (66-5 under Duffner, when I was recruited).

Thanks to all the Patriot posters who care.

[CrusaderBob]

If somebody remebers the details, could they please drop a quick post re-hashing the "why" as to Holy Cross dropping scholarships...I would assume it was far more than inclusion in, at that time, just a football conference (colonial). With all of 87Sader (who I hope is not acutally Gordie Lockbaum, I would think he would respect his school and its history more) comments regarding the Big East as a destination then...I wonder about the details of why they derailed a proud program in the 90's (66-5 under Duffner, when I was recruited).

Thanks to all the Patriot posters who care.

Short version:

Quite simply we dropped scholarships as a condition of membership in the Colonial (now Patriot) League. Joining the Colonial League was seen as a way to stabilize our FB future (and improve our academic reputation) through the continued association via similar athletic policies and scheduling with the Ivy League and the schools we were joining in the PL.

Longer version:

First, keep in mind this decision was being made in 1983 timeframe. But, you have to go back a bit further than that to set the stage:

1969: HC played 2 games and canceled the remainder of season due to a hepatitis outbreak on the team.

1970: Recovering from the prior season the team went 0 -10 - 1

1971 - 1980: HC averaged 4 wins a season with a decade best season of 7-4 in 1978. Over the 10 seasons HC was 40-66-2 overall

1981-1985: After 10 years of mediocre FB, Rick Carter was hired to turn around the program. HC record over the next 5 years 6-5; 8-3; 9-2-1; 8-3; 4-6-1 (35-19-2) including a first round home game in the I-AA playoffs in 1983.

1982: NCAA forced teams to meet stadium size & average attendance numbers to remain in Div 1-A. Holy Cross (and most Ivies) did not meet either or both requirements and were forced into I-AA. This was not seen as all bad because other than BC and an occasional Army game, we were playing a I-AA schedule.

1983: Based on the shifting landscape 6 schools form the Colonial League and agreed to play by essentially the same rules as the Ivies including a scheduling agreement between the two leagues. HC is the only one of the 6 to have historically offered scholarships. William & Mary was in the initial Colonial League discussion but would not give up scholarships and so did not join.

1986: Colonial League begins play.

1991: HC's final class with scholarships plays it's last game.

So to look at the decision in 1983 terms. College athletics in general were shifting dramatically at the time to conference affiliation. College FB just had a dramatic shift pushing I think it was 20 or 30 schools from I-A to I-AA in 1982.

We had just been forced to change division affiliation and needed to stabilize our FB program for the future.

The ideals of the Colonial League appealed to our administration and the association with the Ivy League via athletic scheduling was a big plus. The negative was giving up FB scholarships. I don't know for sure, but I am virtually certain the thinking was that if longtime foe and similar college Colgate, as well as the Ivy's, had done pretty well for many years with only need based aid (wink, wink, nudge, nudge), so can we, especially competing against schools with similar academic standards and aid policies.

Several Ivies, Harvard most prominently, also threatened to drop us from their schedules if we continued to offer scholarships. Joining a 6 member PL with 3 or 4 Ivy games and 1 or 2 other games a year would give us a place in the brand new I-AA world we were forced to enter and provide stability for our FB in the then still shifting college football landscape.

I'm certain the thinking at the time was that many other conferences would follow the PL Ivy model at the I-AA level.

Hindsight says they were wrong in several of their projections but as well as their execution of the move to non-scholarship FB.

But even a clean execution of that transition would not have avoided the current discussion to bring scholarship FB to the PL.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Great post, CrusaderBob. I'd add the following extra points to your fine post.

* The Colonial League/PL was founded at least in part due to the Ivy League desiring like-minded competition to play football at the I-AA level. The Last Amateurs went through this whole process, but lead guy heading the search was a Princeton guy and Fr. Brooks was an enthusiastic embracer of the non-scholarship model - but he went against the popular will of the students and alumni, I believe.

* Hard to remember now, but hitching a wagon to the Ivy League was seen in 1986 as a really positive thing. The I-AA playoffs were still basically in their infancy, and there were still lots of fans at Ivy League games and they were not far removed from seeing 30,000+ fans at their games. This isn't like today where the Ivy league is hard pressed to promote their own product. The Ivy League was still "big time".

* The biggest obstacle between PL membership and the popular will of the HC folks was, simply, Boston College. Again, hard to remember now, but pre-Doug Flutie BC and HC were seen as pretty much similar schools in many ways and bitter local rivals to boot. When Doug Flutie's hail-mary won that game vs. Miami - the cumulation of a large investment in football - some of the upper folks at HC looked at their own program and (paraphrasing) said, "We're never going to keep up with BC in this arms race." It did coincide with the reclassification to I-AA, but this decision was a huge part of this.

[Doc QB]

Thx for the previous two posts. I was just unsure of how the impact of a potential cost savings played in their decision to drop the scholarships as well. Arms race with BC notwithstanding, an elite I-AA program ain't cheap either, scholarships and all. When you have been giving them for a long time, with some success, I would imagine it would have to require some very high level HC administration personnel to make such (what we now perceive) a drastic change in philosophy.

In my mind, it took some of the "unique-ness" away from HC...high powered academics, full ticket football, and a huge success under Duffner. Rather than become IVY light or join the Colonial/Patriot brethren, what really would have happened if they kept the full rides, same schedule (do we REALLY think Harvard would drop them from schedule? And if so....who cares, there are plenty of I-AA teams to replace them). Would Duffner have bolted to Maryland? Would HC not have experienced such a drastic turn of fortune in revolved head coaches and less than stellar seasons?

Not to turn this into another thread that has been discussed incessantly, but had the Colonial/PL taken HC's PRIOR stance on student-athletes and scholarships, that would have really been a unique conference.

And we'd all have less to b!&tch about today.

[Sader87]

Nice summary/explanation CrusaderBob...he's our "good cop" ambassador here to my "bad cop (or worse moniker)."

My beef with the PL has always been that HC is a "round school" in a "square peg league." Although we share many similarities with these schools, it's never been a good fit for HC (imo).... be it be geographically, historically, institutionally etc. overall.

That being said, like Richard Gere in An Officer and a Gentleman...we got nowhere else to go right now. If we are to stay in this league, my hope is that the PL football improves...the first step being for allowing football scholarships.

The same goes for the IL as well. I would say the IL really dropped before 1986...it hadn't really been "big-time" since the late 1960's/early 70's but overall the football was pretty good up until probably the early 80's. The problem is that the Ancient 8 has really dropped in the last decade or so. Most Ivies have really "dumbed down" their schedules, can't recruit well due to its AI etc and in so doing HC (and the rest of the PL) have been dragged down with them so to speak.

[DFW HOYA]

While the HC posters make good points, a lot of the rhetoric lapses into the good old days of HC football (which, outside Duffner and Lockbaum, wasn't the stuff of legend) and how things have become so bad the Crusaders are forced to play teams like Georgetown.

But unlike Fordham, which seems inspired to spend as much as it can on football while spending as little as they can on basketball, I've heard nothing specific as to when HC is poised for some big athletic move upward. They're not joining the A-10. The CAA is not calling. The administration seems happy with the PL and the reduced expectations the PL allows them so they don't have to fight with BC or UConn for recruits.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I would say the IL really dropped before 1986...it hadn't really been "big-time" since the late 1960's/early 70's but overall the football was pretty good up until probably the early 80's. The problem is that the Ancient 8 has really dropped in the last decade or so. Most Ivies have really "dumbed down" their schedules, can't recruit well due to its AI etc and in so doing HC (and the rest of the PL) have been dragged down with them so to speak.

Remember, the objective of the Ivy is not to win the FCS championship. It's simply to win the Ivy title. (That was so in the Patriot as well until the late 90s when the Patriot changed its rules to allow participation in the playoffs.) I don't see any "dumbing down" of Ivy schedules. They still play only 10 games and most of the OOC are Patriot schools. There's been an occasional full scholarship school (Towson, Citadel) plus "historic" games (UNH/Dartmouth; URI/Brown; Villanova/Penn) but otherwise they're the same as always. Rutgers/Princeton and Yale/Army are really the only two games that aren't played any longer.

[DFW HOYA]

They still play only 10 games and most of the OOC are Patriot schools.

Don't you mean "most of the OOC are three or four Patriot schools..." xeyebrowx

However, the Ivy schedules are moving in the direction of Pioneer schools (ask Dartmouth). As the six PL schools that will offer scholarships ramp up, the Ivy games will most assuredly begin to move elsewhere.

[Ken_Z]

As the six PL schools that will offer scholarships ramp up, the Ivy games will most assuredly begin to move elsewhere.

while i realize that scholarships for the other 6 PL schools is obviously a negative for G'town, would you view this as a silver lining as the Hoyas are a logical alternative?

[carney2]

But Carney the Patriot League ruined their program. In the early 80's they played UMASS and Colgate and Harvard and had huge crowds at Fitton. Today well they still play those teams.

There ya go. You (and MANY others) beat on me without cause. Whomsoever is the cause of this discontent, be assured it wasn't me.

[carney2]

Remember, the objective of the Ivy is not to win the FCS championship. It's simply to win the Ivy title. (That was so in the Patriot as well until the late 90s when the Patriot changed its rules to allow participation in the playoffs.) I don't see any "dumbing down" of Ivy schedules. They still play only 10 games and most of the OOC are Patriot schools. There's been an occasional full scholarship school (Towson, Citadel) plus "historic" games (UNH/Dartmouth; URI/Brown; Villanova/Penn) but otherwise they're the same as always. Rutgers/Princeton and Yale/Army are really the only two games that aren't played any longer.

Just a reminder that the Ivies have their own problems. In football, at least, they are quickly evolving into the haves and the have nots. The "haves" seem to have begun sailing a course of their own without regard to the League and its members.

[Ivytalk]

I think HC will beat the spread -- currently 18.5 points -- but not by much. Colgate by 14.

['Gate93]

This has been a good education for me :-)

Just wondering, Sader87...but what conference do you think HC would be a good fit for? Would it have more to do with its religious affiliation, i.e. BC, Providence, or Villanova?

December can't get here soon enough. Get those scholarship discussions on the table with the coaches, ADs, and hammer it out once and for all. If the Ivy teams want to play the Sacred Hearts, Monmouths, and Wagners of the world, let them. I can't imagine their fans would be all that happy but for the newcomers it may be a thrill to play against the Ancient 8 - and beat them. It seems the Ivies want the best of both worlds, to play the academic-minded PL and have a competitive program. We are not Ivy wannabes. Dartmouth, Cornell and Columbia rarely help our strength of schedule and hurt our postseason chances, which they couldn't care less about. Other than sentimental reasons, we're better off without them.

With App State and Nova considering a move, who knows what shake-ups might occur between conferences?! With the PL being rated 14th out of 15 conferences, it's no wonder the status quo isn't good enough anymore. We don't have any ranked teams in the top 40 this season [yet] and traditionally bow out of the playoff race in the first round. If HC and Fordham couldn't win it with their stellar QBs, what's it gonna take to get us there - and keep us there?

[DFW HOYA]

Get those scholarship discussions on the table with the coaches, ADs, and hammer it out once and for all.

This statement assumes that "once and for all" would actually get done. Instead, what the PL will get is seven different policies, from "I-A, here we come"" in the Bronx to "well, we're working on it" in Easton to "no, nothing to see here" in Washington.

The PL needs a leader who will get ALL the schools on the same page, like Dave Gavitt did when the disparate Big East schools came together a generation ago, and get some to step it up and others to commit for the overall good of the league even if it's not what they had hoped for. What it will get will be anything but.

[Sader87]

This statement assumes that "once and for all" would actually get done. Instead, what the PL will get is seven different policies, from "full speed ahead" in the Bronx to "we're working on it" in Easton to "no, nothing to see here" in Washington. It needs a leader who will get ALL the schools on the same page, like Dave Gavitt did when the disparate Big East schools came together a generation ago. What it will get will be anything but.

Don't get me started on that one lol!!!!

[Bogus Megapardus]

The PL needs a leader who will get ALL the schools on the same page, like Dave Gavitt did when the disparate Big East schools came together a generation ago, and get some to step it up and others to commit for the overall good of the league even if it's not what they had hoped for. What it will get will be anything but.

The Patriot League most assuredly does not have such a leader at present. What's more, the league is committed to be a function of presidential control - which would mean it has at best an administrator, not a leader.

But if the league is to remain viable, one or more of the presidents has to step up to the plate and do something. Regrettably, they don't seem to be a terribly charismatic bunch, all in all.

[Sader87]

This has been a good education for me :-)

Just wondering, Sader87...but what conference do you think HC would be a good fit for? Would it have more to do with its religious affiliation, i.e. BC, Providence, or Villanova?
December can't get here soon enough. Get those scholarship discussions on the table with the coaches, ADs, and hammer it out once and for all. If the Ivy teams want to play the Sacred Hearts, Monmouths, and Wagners of the world, let them. I can't imagine their fans would be all that happy but for the newcomers it may be a thrill to play against the Ancient 8 - and beat them. It seems the Ivies want the best of both worlds, to play the academic-minded PL and have a competitive program. We are not Ivy wannabes. Dartmouth, Cornell and Columbia rarely help our strength of schedule and hurt our postseason chances, which they couldn't care less about. Other than sentimental reasons, we're better off without them.

With App State and Nova considering a move, who knows what shake-ups might occur between conferences?! With the PL being rated 14th out of 15 conferences, it's no wonder the status quo isn't good enough anymore. We don't have any ranked teams in the top 40 this season [yet] and traditionally bow out of the playoff race in the first round. If HC and Fordham couldn't win it with their stellar QBs, what's it gonna take to get us there - and keep us there?

A complicated question to answer 'Gate93. Holy Cross' decision to join (some would say form) the Colonial League (now Patriot League) was in many ways Phase 2 of the de-emphasis of major college athletics at HC, Phase 1 being the decision not to join the Big East (then only a basketball conference) in 1978. I think in many ways we are more similar to many of the original members of the Big East i.e. BC, PC, GTown and later members like Villanova institutionally but I can see where some see us as more resembling other PL members today.

In my "perfect world" I think HC should be like a University of Richmond...CAA/A-10 in both football and basketball. It won't happen, but ideally I think that would be the best fit for HC.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

A complicated question to answer 'Gate93. Holy Cross' decision to join (some would say form) the Colonial League (now Patriot League) was in many ways Phase 2 of the de-emphasis of major college athletics at HC, Phase 1 being the decision not to join the Big East (then only a basketball conference) in 1978. I think in many ways we are more similar to many of the original members of the Big East i.e. BC, PC, GTown and later members like Villanova institutionally but I can see where some see us as more resembling other PL members today.

In my "perfect world" I think HC should be like a University of Richmond...CAA/A-10 in both football and basketball. It won't happen, but ideally I think that would be the best fit for HC.

I don't see HC as a CAA member right now, but perhaps after using the NEC as a stepping stone they could move up eventually.

[Sader87]

I don't see HC as a CAA member right now, but perhaps after using the NEC as a stepping stone they could move up eventually.

Easy BlueHenSinfonian...we were beating you guys regularly in the 80's when we actually cared about football.

[DFW HOYA]

In my "perfect world" I think HC should be like a University of Richmond...CAA/A-10 in both football and basketball. It won't happen, but ideally I think that would be the best fit for HC.

In Fr. Brooks' perfect world, HC would probably be in the NESCAC.

[Bogus Megapardus]

In my "perfect world" I think HC should be like a University of Richmond...CAA/A-10 in both football and basketball. It won't happen, but ideally I think that would be the best fit for HC.

I think Lafayette should be like Duke or Stanford, I suppose. That won't happen either but I guess it's fun wishing you were someone else.

Tell me, why didn't you choose to attend Richmond, or perhaps a Big East college? You knew what you were getting with Holy Cross. Why didn't you transfer once you found out how much you completely hated it there? Someone have a gun to your head?

[Sader87]

In Fr. Brooks' perfect world, HC would probably be in the NESCAC.

A tremendous man and an even better college president (as well as being my father's classmate at HC '50)...but sadly, he kind of screwed up with regards to HC and its major athletics.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Easy BlueHenSinfonian...we were beating you guys regularly in the 80's when we actually cared about football.

You beat us three times, and at the same time we were regularly beating Temple, so, a lot can change over the course of 20 - 30 years. I don't think HC is a bad program, and you would probably have a better CAA record than Towson, but jumping straight from the Patriot League to the CAA is like jumping straight from the Sun Belt to the SEC.

[Sader87]

You beat us three times, and at the same time we were regularly beating Temple, so, a lot can change over the course of 20 - 30 years. I don't think HC is a bad program, and you would probably have a better CAA record than Towson, but jumping straight from the Patriot League to the CAA is like jumping straight from the Sun Belt to the SEC.

Just busting BlueHen....I have a lot of respect for Delaware football obviously...just very frustrated at how far we have fallen in the college football world. What's even more frustrating is how easily this never should have happened and that we should be making regular trips to Newark, De in the fall.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Just busting BlueHen....I have a lot of respect for Delaware football obviously...just very frustrated at how far we have fallen in the college football world. What's even more frustrating is how easily this never should have happened and that we should be making regular trips to Newark, De in the fall.

No problem, I admit, when I saw the pictures of HC's stadium it made me wonder what happened to a program that used to be able to fill that behemoth. Overall the schools in the CAA are pretty close to those of the Patriot League academically, so I could see HC finding a home there.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Overall the schools in the CAA are pretty close to those of the Patriot League academically, so I could see HC finding a home there.

Yep - Georgia State is right up there with Colgate. No argument here.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Yep - Georgia State is right up there with Colgate. No argument here.

They aren't quite CAA yet, so let's just forget about them for purposes of that conversation...

[ngineer]

The Patriot League most assuredly does not have such a leader at present. What's more, the league is committed to be a function of presidential control - which would mean it has at best an administrator, not a leader.

But if the league is to remain viable, one or more of the presidents has to step up to the plate and do something. Regrettably, they don't seem to be a terribly charismatic bunch, all in all.

The PL Presidents don't want such a 'leader'. They want an administrator. They have no interest in making the Patriot League anything close to a 'marquee' athletic conference. They want athletics to be part of the education process, not some kind of adjunct fixture that goes about "its business of athletics" that the bigger conferences do. Athletics in the PL is not a business and was never intended as such. It is not to be given more money and/or attention than the Engineering or English departments. So while such a philosophy can still square with scholarships, it does not square with some kind of 'charismatic' leader that results in the PL athletics having any kind of autonomy from the educational arms.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The PL Presidents don't want such a 'leader'. They want an administrator. They have no interest in making the Patriot League anything close to a 'marquee' athletic conference. They want athletics to be part of the education process, not some kind of adjunct fixture that goes about "its business of athletics" that the bigger conferences do. Athletics in the PL is not a business and was never intended as such. It is not to be given more money and/or attention than the Engineering or English departments. So while such a philosophy can still square with scholarships, it does not square with some kind of 'charismatic' leader that results in the PL athletics having any kind of autonomy from the educational arms.

I completely agree, hence the emphasis on presidential control. This will never be the Big East, even if it could be.

But I think that the Patriot League does want broader name recognition - not necessarily as a marquee sports conference but as a collection of institutions with common attributes including sports.

[carney2]

We have hitch hiked all the way to the funny farm with this one. We have actually hijacked our own thread. We went from

"A huge game for the PL this weekend up in Hamilton."

to yet more jousting with our very own persona non grata, Sader87.

Just keep drinking the Kool Aid, guys.

[Bogus Megapardus]

We have actually hijacked our own thread.

A regrettable by-product of the free-form, non-linear modes of thought and expression taught at Patriot institutions. It's called myjacking. Happens all the time, as you know.

[Go...gate]

Yep - Georgia State is right up there with Colgate. No argument here.

Couldn't have said it better myself..... ; )

[Go...gate]

A regrettable by-product of the free-form, non-linear modes of thought and expression taught at Patriot institutions. It's called myjacking. Happens all the time, as you know.

God Bless the Patriot League.

[Franks Tanks]

Richmond, William & Mary, and Nova are comparable to pretty much any school out there.

The CAA also has some very high quality state schools such as UNH, Delaware and JMU. However, they are large schools with a broader range of majors that appeal to a larger range of potential student-athletes.

[TheValleyRaider]

We have hitch hiked all the way to the funny farm with this one. We have actually hijacked our own thread. We went from

"A huge game for the PL this weekend up in Hamilton."

to yet more jousting with our very own persona non grata, Sader87.

Just keep drinking the Kool Aid, guys.

It probably doesn't help that it doesn't appear anyone outside Worcester thinks the Cross will win...

[ngineer]

We have hitch hiked all the way to the funny farm with this one. We have actually hijacked our own thread. We went from

"A huge game for the PL this weekend up in Hamilton."

to yet more jousting with our very own persona non grata, Sader87.

Just keep drinking the Kool Aid, guys.

Carney, I think it's the reincarnation of "the thread that would never die."

[Lehigh Football Nation]

To think I naively thought that this might spur on a discussion on the merits and weaknesses of the Crusaders and Raiders. Shame on me.

[Bogus Megapardus]

spur on a discussion on the merits and weaknesses of the Crusaders and Raiders.

Who? Never heard of 'em.

['Gate93]

I am always cautiously opitmistic. The Raiders 3 wins, while impressive, were not against the FCS's finest. Not sure what to make of Eachus's overall stats, as they were subpar against a more dominant Furman team. Great job against 'Cuse, tho. Would like to keep the home win streak alive for another season!

Hapless Bucknell played spoiler last year to title-bound Lafayette, I think. What looks good on paper...guess anything can happen on "Any given Saturday."