Stony Brook-left NEC-why?

[Brad82]

Why did Stony Brook leave the NEC?

[UAalum72]

The NEC's scholarship limitation means they couldn't be Bowl counters, so SBU would have difficulty scheduling FBS games like the South Florida game this year.

[TexasTerror]

The NEC's scholarship limitation means they couldn't be Bowl counters, so SBU would have difficulty scheduling FBS games like the South Florida game this year.

Yep. Good answer!

How much is tuition at Stony Brook? Does one FBS game a year cover the difference between SBU and the NEC?

[DFW HOYA]

How much is tuition at Stony Brook? Does one FBS game a year cover the difference between SBU and the NEC?

Tuition: $4,970 NYS Resident; $12,870 Out-of-State

http://www.stonybrook.edu/sb/fastfacts/

[carney2]

How much is tuition at Stony Brook? Does one FBS game a year cover the difference between SBU and the NEC?

Do you really think that burying a few football scholarships among 21,000+ undergraduates is a big "expense" that they are/were concerned about?

[aceinthehole]

SBU left when the NEC limit was 30 scholarships; the NEC is now ramping up to 40. Also, Bryant was not in the league at that time.

Not only did SBU want to opportunity to schedule an FBS team each year, when SBU made its decision, the NEC really only had 1 'marquee win' - 2005, CCSU at Colgate. In 2006, the Brook's last year in the NEC, CCSU beat Georgia Southern, Albany beat Delaware, and Monmouth beat Fordham, Colgate and Morgan State.

IMO - the AD at Stony Brook jummped the gun. He was too impatient to let the NEC grow and was willing to trade a regional league with strong rivals (UA, CCSU, Monmouth) for a Southern-based league with unkown teams for LI fans. He is very aggressive, and $$$ is not an issue for them. I would argue even with the additional schollys, SBU is no further ahead than their in-state rival Albany.

The only real advantage to their move, was the FBS game and I wouldn't be suprised that within the next 5 years or so NEC teams will also have the chance to schedule FBS teams due to 1) a further ramp up in schollys or 2) a NCAA change in 'counter status'

[danefan]

Its hard to quanitfy SBU's decision right now.

But as an Albany fan, I'm sorry to say that despite the fact that the on-field the gap may be non-existent right now, the fact is SBU is light year's ahead of most NEC teams in terms of facilities (including an academic support center that is probably one of the nicest in all of FCS). But I don't know whether that's because of the move to the Big South or not. They did just get a $4 million gift for a new weightroom. One has to wonder if these types of gifts would be coming if they weren't playing BCS schools.

On the other hand, there is something that has helped SBU more than anything they have done themselves.......Hofstra dropping football.

SBU would still be playing second-fiddle to Hofstra on the Island for many years, IMO had Hofstra continued its program.

So, would SBU have jumped to the Big South if it knew that (1) the NEC would have a leap of competitiveness that it has or (2) the NEC AQ would happen the same time as the Big South? I don't really know.

[CFBfan]

"One has to wonder if these types of gifts would be coming if they weren't playing BCS schools.

On the other hand, there is something that has helped SBU more than anything they have done themselves.......Hofstra dropping football.

SBU would still be playing second-fiddle to Hofstra on the Island for many years, IMO had Hofstra continued its program.

So, would SBU have jumped to the Big South if it knew that (1) the NEC would have a leap of competitiveness that it has or (2) the NEC AQ would happen the same time as the Big South? I don't really know. "

The NY Times did a nice article on this very thing yesterday.....

[Dane96]

Do you really think that burying a few football scholarships among 21,000+ undergraduates is a big "expense" that they are/were concerned about?

Yes...forget what Redwyn and others are saying (seriously, no disrespect to you guys) but with the current NYS budget crisis...SBU couldnt afford to sit back with a $21mm athletic budget. They did the right thing for them in my humble opinion.; 300k-500k a year will go a long way to making up the athletic deficit.

That said, I think eventually Albany and SBU will be in the same league (as they should be). I think the NCAA is going to look long and hard at the counter rule....and I think based on that (and Albany staying in the NEC and SBU maybe coming back) or a new league formation in the Northeast will see the rivals roost together.

[Redwyn]

Yes...forget what Redwyn and others are saying (seriously, no disrespect to you guys) but with the current NYS budget crisis...SBU couldnt afford to sit back with a $21mm athletic budget. They did the right thing for them in my humble opinion.; 300k-500k a year will go a long way to making up the athletic deficit.

That said, I think eventually Albany and SBU will be in the same league (as they should be). I think the NCAA is going to look long and hard at the counter rule....and I think based on that (and Albany staying in the NEC and SBU maybe coming back) or a new league formation in the Northeast will see the rivals roost together.

Here's to Albany and SBU ending up together - and to mutual posting respect ;-)

[Dane96]

Had to happen one day...right?

;)

[Seawolf97]

AD Fiore is indeed agressive and we have been very lucky in terms of funding including our recent 4.3 million training facility gift. As to joining the Big South it was a surprise not without risk . But we have hit the ground running so far finishing 2nd in 2008 and Co Champs in 2009 and we are 1-0 in conference play now defeating VMI without Ed Gowins 27-9. Facilities have played a big part as all will agree - the new track and field complex will be done by summer of 2011 along with the training fields for lacrosse and soccer. Joe Nathan Field is next for baseball which will be quite nice compared to our present baseball field.
All this expansion has helped recruiting and draws fans and alums who want to help. The NEC maybe improving but it is nice to see schedules with Army and Boston College on them and the paychecks that go with them.As for rivals well it is now Liberty Univ. who wants a piece of us and they are a good program make no bones about it. If and when a new conference with full schollies ever arose I'm sure we and Albany would be first in line along with Fordham to sign up. So I doubt we would ever go back to the NEC given its present structure and I wish Albany would have joined the Big South with us since I understand they were extended an invite. I doubt very much you will see us in the FBS world anytime soon but we can become a very strong FCS program in the next few years-which ok with me.

[carney2]

View from way far away: Stony Brook's aspirations extend way beyond the Big South which is just a stepping stone. I have no idea where this is going, but I doubt if "returning to the NEC" is anywhere on the current administration's radar, regardless of changes in NEC scholarship rules or NCAA counter rules. One man's opinion: next stop, CAA - or its successor organization. If Albany, or anyone else, wants to join them there, they'd better get off their duffs. Right now, and for the immediate future, the CAA needs northern (above the Mason-Dixon Line) affiliates. In any number of possible scenarios, that will not always be the case.

[danefan]

View from way far away: Stony Brook's aspirations extend way beyond the Big South which is just a stepping stone. I have no idea where this is going, but I doubt if "returning to the NEC" is anywhere on the current administration's radar, regardless of changes in NEC scholarship rules or NCAA counter rules. One man's opinion: next stop, CAA - or its successor organization. If Albany, or anyone else, wants to join them there, they'd better get off their duffs. Right now, and for the immediate future, the CAA needs northern (above the Mason-Dixon Line) affiliates. In any number of possible scenarios, that will not always be the case.

I agree that SBU is in great position, but I totally disagree with the CAA "needing" anyone. They're very happy where they are and are only going to get stronger when Ga.St. and ODU become full playing members in the next 2 years. If the CAA was going to move they would have done so already. SBU just extended their Big South contract through 2015. Albany's NEC contract is up after this year. I have to imagine that both schools have had discussions with the CAA and based on SBU's decision the CAA has declined to expand at this point. If the CAA was looking I don't think SBU would have signed anything.

SBU isn't going back to the NEC anytime soon though. SBU is in the Big South until they either (a) move to FBS or (b) a new Northern league forms.

[carney2]

I agree that SBU is in great position, but I totally disagree with the CAA "needing" anyone. They're very happy where they are and are only going to get stronger when Ga.St. and ODU become full playing members in the next 2 years. If the CAA was going to move they would have done so already. SBU just extended their Big South contract through 2015. Albany's NEC contract is up after this year. I have to imagine that both schools have had discussions with the CAA and based on SBU's decision the CAA has declined to expand at this point. If the CAA was looking I don't think SBU would have signed anything.

SBU isn't going back to the NEC anytime soon though. SBU is in the Big South until they either (a) move to FBS or (b) a new Northern league forms.

I respectfully disagree. With Hofstra and Northeastern giving up football, the CAA is dangerously tilted toward the south, with schools like Maine, UNH, and even UMass in danger of jumping ship. Going where, I know not (think outside the box, and don't limit yourself to what exists at the moment), but the travel budgets and the league power are ridiculously skewed against the northern few and in favor of the southern many. The CAA eventually (not now; not next year) needs northern recruits to hold this thing together. Maybe it won't/can't hold together, which is where I threw in my "successor organization" comment. The CAA is a very tenuous monster at this moment. Chances are it will need to morph into something else within 5 years. In any event, look for SBU to be part of the "solution."

[danefan]

I respectfully disagree. With Hofstra and Northeastern giving up football, the CAA is dangerously tilted toward the south, with schools like Maine, UNH, and even UMass in danger of jumping ship. Going where, I know not, but the travel budgets and the league power are ridiculously skewed against the northern few and in favor of the southern many. The CAA eventually (not now; not next year) needs northern recruits to hold this thing together. Maybe it won't/can't hold together, which is where I threw in my "successor organization" comment. The CAA is a very tenuous monster at this moment. Chances are it will need to morph into something else within 5 years. In any event, look for SBU to be part of the "solution."

I don't think the CAA even needs UNH, UMass or Maine to be the strongest conference in FCS.

Delaware
Georgia State
JMU
Old Dominion
Richmond
Towson
Villanova
William & Mary

They're still going to have 3-4 playoff teams a year. Add in Charlotte who you know is going to make some kind of waves and you could have more.

I wish you were right because I want Albany to be part of the CAA North, but I see no reason why the CAA needs any northern teams at all.

[Seawolf97]

I dont see us in the CAA unless Villanova and JMU suddenly decide to move up and Rhode Island makes a move to the NEC. Then maybe us and Albany would get a shot because the CAA would have lost 5 programs with Hofstra and Northeastern both dropping football. I think we are in the Big south for awhile and I'm glad to see it. It is a competitive conference for us and so far we remain a top tier program within that conference. A new to be formed conference in the Northeast is probably our next step. FBS if at all is 15 to 20 years down the road.

[aceinthehole]

I'm with DF.

As much as NEC and PL fans would like to see the New England-4 split off, I don't see it happening in the NEAR future. Sure 10 years from now, things may be very different, but as much as I personally would love to see CCSU included with the SUNYs, NE-4, and possibly Fordham or other fuull-scholly teams in the NOrtheast, I just don't see it on the horizon.

As the PFL footprint proves, travel is a big cost, but it is not something that alters conference membership. Marist could have easily joined the NEC with Duq, but the schollys were much more of a burden than travel to CA, FL, and the midwest. Travel alone isn't going to break up the CAA, there has to be another factor.

[carney2]

I don't think the CAA even needs UNH, UMass or Maine to be the strongest conference in FCS.

That is certainly correct, but what now becomes of UNH, UMass and Maine?

First, you might ask, why would any of them leave? Two reasons:

1. Travel. None of these schools - and certainly neither Maine nor UNH - are making the home turnstiles spin with their football program. If they have just two games in a given year against southern tier CAA opponents, that almost certainly necessitates two expensive trips by air. And, under existent agreements in college football, they are probably not being subsidized by the home team. Generally in a home and home series the home team keeps all the receipts and the visitor returns the favor the following year. That may work out well for JMU who is packing the house, but is the dirty end of the stick for, let's say, Maine who is lucky to cobble together 6-7,000 for a home game.

2. Competition - The power in the CAA is in the south and is likely to remain there. And note that both new CAA members just solidify that southern base.

Secondly, if they left, where would they go? Ivy? No way. Patriot? Maybe one or two if the Patriot approves scholarships, but not a perfect match. NEC? Not the way it is currently structured. That leaves the possibility of the formation of a new league - and hello, SBU. Best, and most logical guess, is that the CAA regroups into southern and northern divisions. Again, welcome aboard, SBU.

[Seawolf97]

This may play out if as I said JMU and Villanove leave for FBS and URI moves to the NEC. You are 100 % correct in saying there is no place to go short of a FCS conference . Don't overlook a SoCon FBS Conference someday with JMU, ODU, App St. Ga St
etc. all moving. up. But back on subject StonyBrook stays put in the Big South through 2015.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Let's say Rhode Island, Maine, UMass and New Hampshire agree to add Stony Brook, Albany and Central Connecticut to their midst. They could create a separate conference (which would have to wait for an AQ) or be the northern tier of a mega-CAA football conference.

Forgetting, for now, all the reasons why one or more of these schools would not want to be a part of it, how would such an arrangement affect scheduling elsewhere in the northeast?

If these schools became part of a seven-team CAA northern division, would the CAA consider an arrangement that allowed each team six intra-division games in the north, plus one game from the south, plus three from the Ivy/Patriot/NEC, plus one FBS moneymaker?

The ultimate CAA playoff qualifier would have to be chosen based on criteria other than strict win/loss calculation, but it could be done. There would be plenty of at-large bids to go around.

This arrangement would cut travel costs and rekindle northeastern rivalries that have been lost in recent years. They might even play as part of the CAA at first, and still qualify as a separate conference under NCAA regulations, so that they could split off with an auto-bid after the requisite number of years.

[Seawolf97]

Let's say Rhode Island, Maine, UMass and New Hampshire agree to add Stony Brook, Albany and Central Connecticut to their midst. They could create a separate conference (which would have to wait for an AQ) or be the northern tier of a mega-CAA football conference.

Forgetting, for now, all the reasons why one or more of these schools would not want to be a part of it, how would such an arrangement affect scheduling elsewhere in the northeast?

If these schools became part of a seven-team CAA northern division, would the CAA consider an arrangement that allowed each team six intra-division games in the north, plus one game from the south, plus three from the Ivy/Patriot/NEC, plus one FBS moneymaker?

The ultimate CAA playoff qualifier would have to be chosen based on criteria other than strict win/loss calculation, but it could be done. There would be plenty of at-large bids to go around.

This arrangement would cut travel costs and rekindle northeastern rivalries that have been lost in recent years. They might even play as part of the CAA at first, and still qualify as a separate conference under NCAA regulations, so that they could split off with an auto-bid after the requisite number of years.

This would probably work and make everyone happy, plus it keeps our OOC schedule pretty solid.

[Dane96]

Let's say Rhode Island, Maine, UMass and New Hampshire agree to add Stony Brook, Albany and Central Connecticut to their midst. They could create a separate conference (which would have to wait for an AQ) or be the northern tier of a mega-CAA football conference.

Forgetting, for now, all the reasons why one or more of these schools would not want to be a part of it, how would such an arrangement affect scheduling elsewhere in the northeast?

If these schools became part of a seven-team CAA northern division, would the CAA consider an arrangement that allowed each team six intra-division games in the north, plus one game from the south, plus three from the Ivy/Patriot/NEC, plus one FBS moneymaker?

The ultimate CAA playoff qualifier would have to be chosen based on criteria other than strict win/loss calculation, but it could be done. There would be plenty of at-large bids to go around.

This arrangement would cut travel costs and rekindle northeastern rivalries that have been lost in recent years. They might even play as part of the CAA at first, and still qualify as a separate conference under NCAA regulations, so that they could split off with an auto-bid after the requisite number of years.

Buy this man a beer.....

[danefan]

I know you say forget why some teams wouldn't want to be part of it, and that's great in theory, but the fact of the matter is there is (1) no one to run the conference and (2) no catalyst for Maine, UMass and/or UNH to agree to associate with 3 lesser quality teams.

Travel cost increases are likely in the range of $200,000 or less each year. I'm not convinced that is enough for UMass, UNH and/or Maine to care about.

URI is a whole different story.

If they wanted to though I think what you describe is how it would work, sans URI which I think is NEC bound no matter what.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Buy this man a beer.....

I happen to be enjoying one at the moment. Funny you should ask . . . .

[Seawolf97]

I know you say forget why some teams wouldn't want to be part of it, and that's great in theory, but the fact of the matter is there is (1) no one to run the conference and (2) no catalyst for Maine, UMass and/or UNH to agree to associate with 3 lesser quality teams.

Travel cost increases are likely in the range of $200,000 or less each year. I'm not convinced that is enough for UMass, UNH and/or Maine to care about.

URI is a whole different story.

If they wanted to though I think what you describe is how it would work, sans URI which I think is NEC bound no matter what.

You rained on our parade! You are right though. The Big 3 in the CAA may not take kindly to an arrangemnet like this even it was do able.

[danefan]

You rained on our parade! You are right though. The Big 3 in the CAA may not take kindly to an arrangemnet like this even it was do able.

Sorry.......

I do think it will be possible though if Albany and CCSU (or Fordham for that matter) would agree to go Indy for 2 years to ramp up to full rides in preparation of a new league forming in 2015 or so and if the AEast ever got their heads out of their you-know-what long enough to realize they have their football playing members on an island. Albany would also have to show real progress on the facility side before its even a remote potential for us.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Mostly I was thinking of a way to get the northeast publics to have a new conference without having to wait years for an AQ. It they operate as a succinct division of the CAA, with insular scheduling, would they not qualify for an AQ under NCAA regulations within the requisite number of year?

Consider Maine (and to a lesser extent New Hampshire) for a moment. The question is whether they are better served by playing Albany, Holy Cross and Harvard rather than Old Dominion, Georgia State and Towson. I don't know the answer to this, quite frankly.

[danefan]

Mostly I was thinking of a way to get the northeast publics to have a new conference without having to wait years for an AQ. It they operate as a succinct division of the CAA, with insular scheduling, would they not qualify for an AQ under NCAA regulations within the requisite number of year?

Consider Maine (and to a lesser extent New Hampshire) for a moment. The question is whether they are better served by playing Albany, Holy Cross and Harvard rather than Old Dominion, Georgia State and Towson. I don't know the answer to this, quite frankly.

This was brought up last spring when NU and Hofstra dropped. I'm not sure how it would work, but we'll probably soon find out as the PFL and MVFC are essentially operating in the same manner. They have separate leagues with joint administration. And while the talent level is dramatically different between most MVFC and PFL teams, the logic remains the same. Two leagues, same administrative management. The PFL has applied for an AQ.

I still think they'd need the requisite 2 years though playing together as at least a 6-team league. I'm not sure they'll get around that in any way. But that's not a hinderance, IMO. The winner of a conference with UMass, UNH, Maine, Albany, Stony Brook, Central Ct., URI would more than likely get an at-large just as the winner of the fka CAA North did every year.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Mostly I was thinking of a way to get the northeast publics to have a new conference without having to wait years for an AQ. It they operate as a succinct division of the CAA, with insular scheduling, would they not qualify for an AQ under NCAA regulations within the requisite number of year?

Consider Maine (and to a lesser extent New Hampshire) for a moment. The question is whether they are better served by playing Albany, Holy Cross and Harvard rather than Old Dominion, Georgia State and Towson. I don't know the answer to this, quite frankly.

What makes you think Harvard and Holy Cross would start playing UNH (or Maine)? I mean despite their close proximity, UNH and Harvard haven't met on the gridiron since 1939 IIRC. That's so long ago that it's like it's never happened!! xrotatehx xlolx xlolx And Holy Cross and UNH haven't met since the mid 80's (again IIRC). There's been no indication that either school would start scheduling UNH.

Games against Villanova, Delaware, Towson and to a somewhat lessor extent the VA schools are very important to UNH recruiting. Playing those games provides positive exposure for the program. Then once kids attend UNH, they provide shorter trips for many of the players families than trips to Durham. For that reason I feel playing two games down there is much more important than playing Holy Cross and Harvard. xtwocentsx

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

The NEC's scholarship limitation means they couldn't be Bowl counters, so SBU would have difficulty scheduling FBS games like the South Florida game this year.

It's not just that, it was also to ramp up to full scholarship quicker. While it turns out that the NEC would have provided an AQ at the same time as the Big South, the NEC wouldn't have allowed them to go full scholly. I have to think that Stony Brook has a better opportunity to go deeper in the playoffs coming out of the Big South than the NEC. That had to be part of their reasoning.

[aceinthehole]

Again, I agree with DF.

Even if we ignore the fact that the NE-4 don't really want to leave the CAA to join with the SUNYs, CCSU, and Fordham - who would run the new conference? The AE is inept and has no desire to run this league. And I think sometimes posters overrate the travel burden on the budget.

The only way the NE-4 leaves the CAA is if they become non-competative (see URI). As long as UMass, UNH, and Maine can contend for the CAA title and NCAA at-large bids they have no incentive to leave. Now, if Maine has a problem keeping competative in the CAA, they could follow URI and look to join the NEC.

However, IF the NE-4 left the CAA as a group to form a new conference (and added 4 teams), I have no doubt the NCAA would provide a waiver and grant an AQ after a 2-year wait. And I think the conference winner would be an at-large selection in any case.

[DFW HOYA]

Let's say Rhode Island, Maine, UMass and New Hampshire agree to add Stony Brook, Albany and Central Connecticut to their midst. They could create a separate conference (which would have to wait for an AQ) or be the northern tier of a mega-CAA football conference. Forgetting, for now, all the reasons why one or more of these schools would not want to be a part of it, how would such an arrangement affect scheduling elsewhere in the northeast?

For one thing, it has the potential (for now, just the potential) to drive the Patriot League off the map.

There has not been a significant realignment in the Northeast since 1986--the MAAC, America East, Colonial, and NEC are all progeny of the 1970's era ECAC conferences. The Patriot was an attempt to bring together acadmically competitive schools under one umbrella, but outside of a failing American program leaving from the CAA, no all-sports program has migrated to the model.

If these schools see that not only a football league would be a synergy, but an all-sports league leveraging lower travel costs and a better opportunity to earn NCAA bids, schools like Fordham, Holy Cross, or even Colgate could be in the mix--by that point, with full scholarships, the academic index restrictions put in by the PL to maintain parity with the Ivy League won't be so valuable anymore. I think this issue will eventually drive Fordham out, with or without a positive scholarship vote.

[Jackman]

There need to be 9 members for a new conference to make sense, and at most we have 4: UMass, UNH, Maine, and SBU. URI can't be trusted, Fordham would rather stay in a full scholarship Patriot League, Albany needs scholarships and a stadium, CCSU has similar problems plus all-sports affiliation with the NEC, and I can't think of a realistic 9th member in the region.

Even if you got all 8 of those programs together to save travel costs, you end up increasing the costs of the non-conference schedule, because these are pretty much all the teams we've been playing non-conference and will need to be replaced. Since the Ivies won't play us, that leaves only the Patriot League, which will be only 6 members and non-scholarship if we have Fordham with us. Plus Georgetown is too far away for most of us. We won't be able to get home-and-nones with the PL because their bargaining power will be too high when we're trying to fill 16+ non-conference games with 5 teams who'd rather play the Ivy League anyway. When there aren't enough of those games to go around, UMass will be on the phone begging Sacred Heart and Marist not to make us come to their place for home-and-homes. It's either that, or play long distance non-conference games, which defeat the entire point of leaving the CAA to start a new conference.

You also have to deal with an uncertain administration, trying to find someone who'll pay us to put games on TV like they did in the CAA (unlikely), lower media exposure and national relevance, worrying about teams dropping football or voting to lower scholarships (URI), etc.

I'd be happy to welcome SBU, Fordham or (if they make improvements) Albany into the CAA, but there's no way I'd leave the CAA to form a new conference with them. What we've got in the CAA is worth the 1 extra airplane trip per season, at least for UMass.

[Dane96]

Albany's stadium is on the way...hopefully. An RFP was returned for Phase 1 of the stadium...

[Fordham]

Would the A10 ever go back to sponsoring fball? U could have UMass, URI, Fordham, Duquesne and then possibly Dayton or (gasp) Richmond as a base with which to add Maine, UNH, SB, HC, Albany, Bryant, et.al.

[emilimo701]

I don't think the CAA even needs UNH, UMass or Maine to be the strongest conference in FCS.

Delaware
Georgia State
JMU
Old Dominion
Richmond
Towson
Villanova
William & Mary

They're still going to have 3-4 playoff teams a year. Add in Charlotte who you know is going to make some kind of waves and you could have more.

I wish you were right because I want Albany to be part of the CAA North, but I see no reason why the CAA needs any northern teams at all.

i've been saying/thinking this for a while now. IMO there would be no greater addition to the CAA in the north than Albany. Especially from UMass' standpoint; you're within driving distance. You played us hard twice. You've showed that you can recruit fairly well and play with the big boys!