Prerequisites for a FCS to FBS move

[BlueHenSinfonian]

With all of the talk about various teams joining various FBS conferences lately I've been thinking about what really makes a team ready to make the jump. Aside from the logistical things like the stadium, money, location, etc, it seems like there should be some performance minimums. These are mine, but feel free to comment or add in your own -

1. 10 year average attendance over 15,000 per home game
2. 10 year overall winning record
3. 10 years without any NCAA sanctions
4. Within the past 10 years at least five quarterfinal or above appearances
5. Within the past 10 years at least three semifinal or above appearances
6. Within the past 10 years at least one NC win

If a team can meet these basic requirements, they might have a shot of not completely embarrassing themselves in FBS play.

[superman7515]

I disagree with the NC win.

(Entering this season)

Arizona State, 484 wins, 0 AP NC
Arkansas, 484 wins, 0 AP NC
Georgia Tech, 481 wins, 0 AP NC
Fresno State, 477 wins, 0 AP NC
UCLA, 475 wins, 0 AP NC
Southern Miss, 472 wins, 0 AP NC
Miami OH, 467 wins, 0 AP NC
West Virginia, 467 wins, 0 AP NC
Ole Miss, 466 wins, 0 AP NC
Boston College, 451 wins, 0 AP NC

or...

Boise St, .761% win pct, 0 AP NC
Arizona St, .629%, 0 AP NC
Southern Miss, .626%, 0 AP NC
Miami OH, .620%, 0 AP NC
Bowling Green, .607%, 0 AP NC
Central Michigan, .606%, 0 AP NC
UCLA, .605%, 0 AP NC
Fresno State, .601%, 0 AP NC
Arkansas, .597%, 0 AP NC
Ole Miss, .595%, 0 AP NC

[TheBisonator]

Making an FBS move has nothing to do with on-field performance. It has to do with those little slips of cotton paper in your wallet that have portraits of forefathers on them... Hmm. What is that called again?? Oh yeah, MONEY.

[Seawolf97]

While these requirements may help an FCS team move to an FBS or BCS conference it wont be the final word. Conferences are going to look at the whole athletic picture of a school. The driver will be basketball, football and then everything else an athletic
department can bring to the table. Two examples and no negatives intended against any program or school. Coastal Carolina has struggled as of late in football but their mens basketball program is always strong and their baseball team is always in the top 10 in D-1. That might be more attractive to Conf-USA or the ACC someday than say UNH. UNH has great football record against FCS, FBS and BCS programs. They do not play baseball, lacrosse and their basketball program struggles at times. I say UNH beats
Coastal 4 out 5 times in football, gets blown out in hoops and cant compete in baseball. The big boys excel in all sports just look at the post season tournaments. All the football powers place teams in the NCAA or NIT in hoops, the College World Series rounds etc , etc. So being an FCS power in football isnt the only key to moving up. Not to many years ago UCLA was ranked 1st in Mens and Womens tennis and has won National titles in both So we can put all the requirements we want on paper for football but it will be who ever has the best all around athletic program and can win at the national Level in any sport that will get the invite.

[rufus]

I think Boise State only met requirement #3. It's too bad these requirements weren't in place to keep them from making their ill-fated move to FBS.

[NovaWildcat]

With all of the talk about various teams joining various FBS conferences lately I've been thinking about what really makes a team ready to make the jump. Aside from the logistical things like the stadium, money, location, etc, it seems like there should be some performance minimums. These are mine, but feel free to comment or add in your own -

1. 10 year average attendance over 15,000 per home game
2. 10 year overall winning record
3. 10 years without any NCAA sanctions
4. Within the past 10 years at least five quarterfinal or above appearances
5. Within the past 10 years at least three semifinal or above appearances
6. Within the past 10 years at least one NC win

If a team can meet these basic requirements, they might have a shot of not completely embarrassing themselves in FBS play.

I'm pretty sure UConn didn't do any of #1-6...and hasn't embarrassed themselves at all in FCS play...actually been relatively successful.

[Seawolf97]

Making an FBS move has nothing to do with on-field performance. It has to do with those little slips of cotton paper in your wallet that have portraits of forefathers on them... Hmm. What is that called again?? Oh yeah, MONEY.

Thats the other part of the equation. Money for facilities, scholarships, travel, media coverage, top coaching staffs-you name it.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

I disagree with the NC win.

(Entering this season)

Arizona State, 484 wins, 0 AP NC
Arkansas, 484 wins, 0 AP NC
Georgia Tech, 481 wins, 0 AP NC
Fresno State, 477 wins, 0 AP NC
UCLA, 475 wins, 0 AP NC
Southern Miss, 472 wins, 0 AP NC
Miami OH, 467 wins, 0 AP NC
West Virginia, 467 wins, 0 AP NC
Ole Miss, 466 wins, 0 AP NC
Boston College, 451 wins, 0 AP NC

or...

Boise St, .761% win pct, 0 AP NC
Arizona St, .629%, 0 AP NC
Southern Miss, .626%, 0 AP NC
Miami OH, .620%, 0 AP NC
Bowling Green, .607%, 0 AP NC
Central Michigan, .606%, 0 AP NC
UCLA, .605%, 0 AP NC
Fresno State, .601%, 0 AP NC
Arkansas, .597%, 0 AP NC
Ole Miss, .595%, 0 AP NC

How many of those schools started out at the FCS (or I-AA, or DII/DIII) level though? Also, I'd hope that no FCS team would want to join FBS to become the next Miami of Ohio or Fresno State.

Bisonator -

I know money has a lot to do with it, but what I'm talking about are signs that a team might actually be ready to do it. When you have FBS teams like Ball State, FIU, FAU, Eastern Michigan, Akron, New Mexico State, LA-Monroe, LA-Lafayette, etc, that wouldn't even consistently make the top 10 in FCS, doesn't it make you ask what they are doing there? WKU hasn't been setting the world on fire in FBS, and they were pretty good at the FCS level before they made the jump.

When I hear about second and third tier FCS teams talking about moving to FBS it just makes me wonder WTF they think is going to happen afterwards.

[rufus]

When I hear about second and third tier FCS teams talking about moving to FBS it just makes me wonder WTF they think is going to happen afterwards.

Second and third tier teams have much less to lose in a move to FBS than does a team like Delaware. Some of these teams are just going to go from being irrelevant in FCS to being irrelevant in FBS. It will actually be an upgrade in most cases. A school like Delaware runs the risk of going from contending for the national championship every year to becoming a La Monroe. There's much more downside risk for Delaware, although the Blue Hens are better positioned to move.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

I'm pretty sure UConn didn't do any of #1-6...and hasn't embarrassed themselves at all in FCS play...actually been relatively successful.

If you consider going 5-4-1 in the past decade in regards to winning seasons and four appearances in minor irrelavent bowl games to be successful, maybe.

Seawolf -

You do make a good point about other sports, but basketball programs tend to grow pretty easily when enough money and exposure are thrown at them. There are plenty of small schools that can't put together a winning football program that are dominant forces in basketball. As far as baseball and the rest go, I can't make an informed statement, the only college sports I ever paid attention to were football and basketball.

Rufus -

That's true in regards to risk, but where is the reward in becoming a non-competitive FBS program? There might be a little bit more exposure, but if the exposure is losing season after losing season, is that worth it? Does being a punching bag for big name schools draw potential students? From what I've read the lower rung FBS programs aren't making money for the schools, so there can't be a financial incentive. It has got to be easier to move up the ranks in the FCS system where merit is decided on the field vs by an algorithm that is (whether directly or not) heavily weighted on a winning history. Given the right coaching, planning, and enough money a school like TX State could be a perennial FCS Championship contender, but in the FBS they won't likely get a chance at a title game within any of our lifetimes.

[darell1976]

Here is a question that I would like to know...why would anyone "want" to move up to the FBS? Is it to reach a bowl game, because none of us would ever make it to a national title game realistically. Not even in the BCS way of determining who plays for a national title. So until there is a playoff system in the FBS what really is the point of moving up?

[NovaWildcat]

Here is a question that I would like to know...why would anyone "want" to move up to the FBS? Is it to reach a bowl game, because none of us would ever make it to a national title game realistically. Not even in the BCS way of determining who plays for a national title. So until there is a playoff system in the FBS what really is the point of moving up?

I'll answer this with regards to Villanova because that is the only case I truly know. The competitiveness of Villanova Football at either level (which appears to be your main issue) is not at the top of priorities for this administration and board of directors. It's about maintaining a high academic and athletic profile...and A LOT of that comes from its association with a major conference.

And also, you do it because you can. $$$ in a lot of this is a wash because there's a lot of money lost in FCS football (especially at out level with little revenue streams) just like FBS (higher expenses). School's want their shot with the highest possible level, as their fan bases (however small in size) may think that it's necessary.

At the end of the day, I doubt the rationale for leaving FCS for FBS is ever "because we think we can win a championship with the best of them." Rather, it's "I wanna party with the big boys."

[AxeEmJacks]

I think Boise State only met requirement #3. It's too bad these requirements weren't in place to keep them from making their ill-fated move to FBS.

xlmaox

[rufus]

xlmaox

I really hope you're laughing at my sarcasm. :D

[rufus]

Rufus -

That's true in regards to risk, but where is the reward in becoming a non-competitive FBS program? There might be a little bit more exposure, but if the exposure is losing season after losing season, is that worth it? Does being a punching bag for big name schools draw potential students? From what I've read the lower rung FBS programs aren't making money for the schools, so there can't be a financial incentive. It has got to be easier to move up the ranks in the FCS system where merit is decided on the field vs by an algorithm that is (whether directly or not) heavily weighted on a winning history. Given the right coaching, planning, and enough money a school like TX State could be a perennial FCS Championship contender, but in the FBS they won't likely get a chance at a title game within any of our lifetimes.
The reward for moving to FBS is the outside chance that a program turns into the next Boise State. The odds for these programs are extremely slim, but the odds are still much better than the 0% chance in FCS.

[yosef1969]

The reward for moving to FBS is the outside chance that a program turns into the next Boise State. The odds for these programs are extremely slim, but the odds are still much better than the 0% chance in FCS.

Boise State met only one of the criteria listed and Marshall met them all...don't think success or failure at the FCS level is a valid indicator of success or failure in FBS.

[JaxSinfonian]

Here is a question that I would like to know...why would anyone "want" to move up to the FBS? Is it to reach a bowl game, because none of us would ever make it to a national title game realistically. Not even in the BCS way of determining who plays for a national title. So until there is a playoff system in the FBS what really is the point of moving up?

FCS schools typically play 1-2 games against FBS opponents each year, pocketing a total of about $300,000-$1 million for doing so. Lower-tier FBS schools can schedule 3-4 such games per year, and bring back multiple millions. Now, if that was reliable enough to pay the total cost of moving up, I think more teams would be doing it. But programs that plan and act accordingly can apparently expect to at least not lose tons more money. I may be assuming too much here, but there are benefits that may not be obvious to you in North Dakota, where (if I remember correctly) until fairly recently, the highest-level NCAA teams were in DII. There are now in Alabama four, soon to be five, schools playing FBS ball. There is a palpable difference in media attention afforded to those teams and the attention (or lack thereof) afforded to the four FCS teams. (Of course, there's a difference in the attention paid the two BCS teams and to the non-BCS teams.) If the purpose of a football program is to get the school's name in front of as many people as possible, then losing a little more money on the program might be seen as money well spent. One could argue that shouldn't be the point, but it clearly is the approach taken by the leadership at many schools.

[SM_Bobcat]

Here is a question that I would like to know...why would anyone "want" to move up to the FBS? Is it to reach a bowl game, because none of us would ever make it to a national title game realistically. Not even in the BCS way of determining who plays for a national title. So until there is a playoff system in the FBS what really is the point of moving up?

Texas State wants to move up, because in the state of Texas, if you are not a FBS school you are viewed as a DII or DIII school. Do we hope to become successful and become the next Boise State, absolutely. But, we are not wanting to make the move banking on that. But, we want the added exposure and money the comes with being an FBS school, expecially in the state of Texas.

[SM_Bobcat]

With all of the talk about various teams joining various FBS conferences lately I've been thinking about what really makes a team ready to make the jump. Aside from the logistical things like the stadium, money, location, etc, it seems like there should be some performance minimums. These are mine, but feel free to comment or add in your own -

1. 10 year average attendance over 15,000 per home game
2. 10 year overall winning record
3. 10 years without any NCAA sanctions
4. Within the past 10 years at least five quarterfinal or above appearances
5. Within the past 10 years at least three semifinal or above appearances
6. Within the past 10 years at least one NC win

If a team can meet these basic requirements, they might have a shot of not completely embarrassing themselves in FBS play.

FCS success doesn't in any way, shape or form equate to FBS success. If you want to be successfull at the FBS level, you will have to be able to recruit a different level of athlete than you are as an FCS school. If you really think that any FCS school, even the best FCS schools in the nation can just add 22 more scholarships with the same level athlete that they have been recruiting before and have a successful season at the FBS level, you are mistaken. That is why the FBS landscape is filled with schools like Western Kentucky who were very successful FCS schools, but when they made the move to FBS they couldn't compete.

[Jackman]

Here is my list of proposed requirements to move to FBS:

#1. Be a Division I member.

And here, for comparison, are the actual NCAA requirements to play any DI sport except FBS football:

#1. Be a Division I member. (Or, under certain limited circumstances, a Division II or even III member, so long as you don't attempt to play the two main revenue sports, basketball and football.)

Limiting access to FBS football has absolutely nothing to do with concerns about competitiveness. Every single head-to-head sport in the NCAA has a 50% winning and losing percentage, but only FBS football has additional barriers to membership. The only purpose of the current rules is to prevent the current major programs from having to share the money with anyone else. Their consideration of any new rules for membership will begin and end with that sole purpose in mind.

[Silenoz]

4. Within the past 10 years at least five quarterfinal or above appearances
5. Within the past 10 years at least three semifinal or above appearances
6. Within the past 10 years at least one NC win

With those rules you'd maybe see several teams move up again, ever

[Appfan_in_CAAland]

Here is a question that I would like to know...why would anyone "want" to move up to the FBS? Is it to reach a bowl game, because none of us would ever make it to a national title game realistically. Not even in the BCS way of determining who plays for a national title. So until there is a playoff system in the FBS what really is the point of moving up?

I want App State to move up because:
1) the guys play in front of 30,000 at home and 7,000 on the road. Even in the Sun Belt and MAC teams draw a little better
2) I'd like to get the Wake Forest, Marshall, and East Carolina rivalries back - and see them in Boone.

That is all.

[JDC325]

With all of the talk about various teams joining various FBS conferences lately I've been thinking about what really makes a team ready to make the jump. Aside from the logistical things like the stadium, money, location, etc, it seems like there should be some performance minimums. These are mine, but feel free to comment or add in your own -

1. 10 year average attendance over 15,000 per home game
2. 10 year overall winning record
3. 10 years without any NCAA sanctions
4. Within the past 10 years at least five quarterfinal or above appearances
5. Within the past 10 years at least three semifinal or above appearances
6. Within the past 10 years at least one NC win

If a team can meet these basic requirements, they might have a shot of not completely embarrassing themselves in FBS play.

Support and money are the most important thing so attendance is the only thing I agree with. Everything else is sometimes out of the teams hands. You cant help if one kid like Reggie Bush screws your program and you cant help if the NCAA selection committee pulls a Wofford or your conference stinks and nobody gives you cred for qualifying season.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

With all of the talk about various teams joining various FBS conferences lately I've been thinking about what really makes a team ready to make the jump.

A grandfathered invitation to a BCS conference. Other than that, I see no reason to move up at all. All non-BCS FBS teams "lose money", and have no shot at competing for a Crystal Ball. At least a BCS team does, and might have a chance of being a self-sufficient athletics department while doing so, but no other FBS team does.

[aust42]

It will be interesting to see what the NCAA does when a bunch of these 1AA schools try to move up to 1A. They put a 5 year moratorium preventing any more teams from moving up because the NCAA was basically tired of the Sunbelch type teams moving up and watering down 1A. How many more teams does 1A want now?

[Mntneer]

I want App State to move up because:
1) the guys play in front of 30,000 at home and 7,000 on the road. Even in the Sun Belt and MAC teams draw a little better


I'm still on the fence about a potential move but this is the most compelling argument IMO. To attend a game at the Rock one week and then a SoCon away game the next is like night and day. I've heard several fans comment on the complete lack of any sort of atmosphere at Samford last weekend, and unfortunately that's largely the norm. Again I'm not convinced to make a move, but a lot of the pro-FCS fans seem not to attend many away games to see that contrast.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

I'm still on the fence about a potential move but this is the most compelling argument IMO. To attend a game at the Rock one week and then a SoCon away game the next is like night and day. I've heard several fans comment on the complete lack of any sort of atmosphere at Samford last weekend, and unfortunately that's largely the norm. Again I'm not convinced to make a move, but a lot of the pro-FCS fans seem not to attend many away games to see that contrast.

If a team can't bring in the fans at the FCS level, what makes them think going FBS will improve the situation? If I'm not willing to go to the stadium to see my team play a game we actually might win, why would I be likely to go watch them play against a big name school when it's 99% certain they will lose?

[Mntneer]

If a team can't bring in the fans at the FCS level, what makes them think going FBS will improve the situation? If I'm not willing to go to the stadium to see my team play a game we actually might win, why would I be likely to go watch them play against a big name school when it's 99% certain they will lose?

I don't think you're following me. My point was made with regard to why ASU specifically would consider moving up. We already draw the fans. Looking at other schools in our conference that are supposed to be our peers only reinforces the fact that they're not. I mean, the product on the field is fairly comparable, but the overall experience simply is not.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

I don't think you're following me. My point was made with regard to why ASU specifically would consider moving up. We already draw the fans. Looking at other schools in our conference that are supposed to be our peers only reinforces the fact that they're not. I mean, the product on the field is fairly comparable, but the overall experience simply is not.

It looks like App State and GaSou bring home the biggest crowds in the SoCon by a good margin. Both are strong programs that could always join into the CAA along with some of the other major FCS attendance champs - Delaware, James Madison, UMass, and soon Old Dominion. That would leave a couple holes in the SoCon that could be filled by some of the more Eastern SLC teams that might otherwise be left out in the cold if a bunch of those teams defect to the WAC.

[ThompsonThe]

Or Delaware Blue Hens and JMU's Dukes could join App State and GaSo in forming a new FBS conference.

[Gamecocks99]

Making an FBS move has nothing to do with on-field performance. It has to do with those little slips of cotton paper in your wallet that have portraits of forefathers on them... Hmm. What is that called again?? Oh yeah, MONEY.


LOL LOL

[BearsCountry]

It will be interesting to see what the NCAA does when a bunch of these 1AA schools try to move up to 1A. They put a 5 year moratorium preventing any more teams from moving up because the NCAA was basically tired of the Sunbelch type teams moving up and watering down 1A. How many more teams does 1A want now?

Teams moving up to FBS wasn't the problem, it was the influx of teams moving up from D2 and trying to get a piece of the basketball pie.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Teams moving up to FBS wasn't the problem, it was the influx of teams moving up from D2 and trying to get a piece of the basketball pie.

But the NCAA pointedly also made the moratorium apply to FCS to FBS moves too. They didn't have to do that: after all, it's theoretically all Division I.

[JSU02]

What I find interesting is that it is the FCS schools who are pushing the new requirements for an FCS to FBS transition. In essence they are admitting that they have failed to make FCS a more attractive option for many schools in regards to cost and media attention, and are scared that its most competitive schools will leave. Shouldn't the FBS be making the rules for who get to be in FBS?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What I find interesting is that it is the FCS schools who are pushing the new requirements for an FCS to FBS transition. In essence they are admitting that they have failed to make FCS a more attractive option for many schools in regards to cost and media attention, and are scared that its most competitive schools will leave. Shouldn't the FBS be making the rules for who get to be in FBS?

You mean, conferences with big muscles like the WAC (on life support with a loose plug), MVC (getting torn apart through internal divisions), and Sun Belt (who are less competitive against BCS conferences than, say, the CAA)? They're lucky to be alive, let alone making rules that affect the BC$.

FBS conferences used to be able to market themselves as "the Division I schools with access to the big boys", as shady membership rules and unfair rules to prohibit FCS/FBS games prohibited the free market from working. Now with the rules opening up FCS/FBS games as counters, that's no longer the case.

As folks have mentioned, it's far from certain what WAC membership would mean to, say, Montana aside from four fewer home games a year, no shot at the postseason and spending boatloads more money. A WAC membership means far less today than it did 15, or even 10 years ago.