AGS POLL week 3 results!!

[TexasTerror]

Any surprises in week one?

Delaware State had no votes. Southern went from NR to No. 10 after the MEAC/SWAC Challenge. Tennessee State really made a big step forward from NR to No. 5.

Sheridan Broadcasting Network Black College Football Poll
1. South Carolina State Bulldogs (23) 0-1 287 1
2. Prairie View A&M Panthers (7) 1-0 276 2
3. Florida A&M Rattlers 0-1 204 3
4. Tuskegee Golden Tigers 1-0 199 4
5. Tennessee State Tigers 1-0 143 NR
6. Grambling State Tigers 0-1 136 6
7. Norfolk State Spartans 0-1 112 7
8. Shaw Bears 1-0 106 8
9. Albany State Golden Rams 1-0 68 9
10. Southern Jaguars 1-0 44 NR
Others receiving votes (in order of points): Texas Southern 37, Winston-Salem State 32, Hampton 17, Morgan State 16, Jackson State 15.

http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=sportsnetwork&page=cfoot2/misc/sheridan-poll.htm

[TexasTerror]

Week two...

Sheridan Broadcasting Network Black College Football Poll
1. *South Carolina State Bulldogs 287 (23) 1-1
2. Prairie View A&M Panthers 276 (7) 1-1
3. Florida A&M Rattlers 201 1-1
4. Tuskegee Golden Tigers 199 2-0
5. Norfolk State Spartans 147 1-1
6. Grambling State Tigers 132 0-1
7. Albany State Golden Rams 118 2-0
8. Shaw Bears 104 1-1
9. Winston Salem State Rams 71 3-0
10. Tennessee State Tigers 45 1-1

Others Receiving Votes: Jackson State Tigers 37, Hampton Pirates 29, Texas Southern Tigers 19, Morgan State Bears 17, Morehouse Tigers 14

http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=sportsnetwork&page=cfoot2/misc/sheridan-poll.htm

[GreatAppSt]

Any Given Saturday Poll Top 25

(First place votes in parenthesis), Points
1. Villanova (41) 1780
2. James Madison (22) 1738
3. Appalachian St. (9) 1701
4. Jacksonville St. (3) 1530
5. Richmond 1422
6. Delaware 1413
7. Stephen F. Austin 1343
8. Massachusetts 1301
9. William & Mary 1125
10. Eastern Washington 1083
11. South Carolina St. 1073
12. Elon 955
13. Northern Iowa 805
14. North Dakota St. 639
15. Southern Illinois 613
16. Montana St. 603
17. Montana 569
18. New Hampshire 543
19. Furman 527
20. Univ. South Dakota 409
21. McNeese St. 390
22. Texas St. 314
23. Central Arkansas 297
24. Liberty 273
25. Cal Poly 233


Others receiving votes (minimum of 5 votes): Georgia Southern (36), Chattanooga (24), Illinois St. (24), Pennsylvania (23), Harvard (18), Western Illinois (16), Southeast Missouri St. (15), Northern Arizona (14), South Dakota St. (13), Wofford (13), Youngstown St. (11), Robert Morris (10), Sacramento St. (10), Weber St. (10), Missouri St. (7), Florida A&M (5), Alabama St. (4), Fordham (4), Rhode Island (4), Gardner-Webb (3), Prairie View A&M (3), Southern Utah (3), Hampton (2), Lehigh (2), Albany (1)

MOST SIGNIFICANT WIN OF THE WEEK: Eastern Washington
MOST SIGNIFICANT LOSS OF THE WEEK: Montana, Southern Illinois

[JMUNJ08]

Crazy but I don't see any surprises...Montana State ranked over Montana. Take a picture guys!

[TexasTerror]

GAS - you left off the ARV! :)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

That Harvard is not a Top 25 team is a complete joke.

[UNH Fanboi]

Looks pretty good, though I think SIU is very lucky to be ranked at all, much less as high as 15. UNH is probably overrated too given their embarrassing loss to URI. I personally had them at 24th, more because of a lack of any better options. In general, I felt pretty lost picking teams after the top 15.

[Dane96]

All due respect: Why is Montana even in the poll at this point. I am sorry, but they dont belong right now.

I can sort of see Cal Poly (had them just outside)...but I am baffled by Montana even with all the upsets. I also don't get how SAC STATE isnt in the poll if you have Montana in. Love my fellow Bay Staters...but UMASS is way too high right now. About 12-14...until further notice (I think they should scoot on up too 8 very soon).

[ToTheLeft]

Too many teams holding on to reputation. But I've come to accept that a little more. At least UMass leaped W and M.

[Dane96]

That Harvard is not a Top 25 team is a complete joke.

Agreed...I had them in at 24. And y'all know I always think the Ivies are overrated...but they dismantled Holy Cross.

[UNH Fanboi]

All due respect: Why is Montana even in the poll at this point. I am sorry, but they dont belong right now.

I can sort of see Cal Poly (had them just outside)...but I am baffled by Montana even with all the upsets. I also don't get how SAC STATE isnt in the poll if you have Montana in. Love my fellow Bay Staters...but UMASS is way too high right now. About 12-14...until further notice (I think they should scoot on up too 8 very soon).

I think UMass is the real deal this year. There definitely aren't 12 teams that have looked better than them so far.

[darell1976]

Any Given Saturday Poll Top 25

(First place votes in parenthesis), Points
1. Villanova (41) 1780
2. James Madison (22) 1738
3. Appalachian St. (9) 1701
4. Jacksonville St. (3) 1530
5. Richmond 1422
6. Delaware 1413
7. Stephen F. Austin 1343
8. Massachusetts 1301
9. William & Mary 1125
10. Eastern Washington 1083
11. South Carolina St. 1073
12. Elon 955
13. Northern Iowa 805
14. North Dakota St. 639
15. Southern Illinois 613
16. Montana St. 603
17. Montana 569
18. New Hampshire 543
19. Furman 527
20. Univ. South Dakota 409
21. McNeese St. 390
22. Texas St. 314
23. Central Arkansas 297
24. Liberty 273
25. Cal Poly 233

2 weeks Yotes!!!!! Enjoy your spot in the polls. xnodx

[JMUNJ08]

Agreed...I had them in at 24. And y'all know I always think the Ivies are overrated...but they dismantled Holy Cross.

But how good has Holy Cross been? We have 2-3 games for all other teams besides the ivies. Penn had the preseason hype more than Harvard. If we have another week like this they should be cracking that Top 25 on more ballots.

[Dane96]

I think UMass is the real deal this year. There definitely aren't 12 teams that have looked better than them so far.

Not that I disagree...I do think in the end they are the real deal. But...I think there are more teams that have done more so far. Honestly, 8 doesnt bother me as much as that UMONTANA ranking...and the leaving of SAC STATE out (based on UM being in).

[Dane96]

But how good has Holy Cross been? We have 2-3 games for all other teams besides the ivies. Penn had the preseason hype more than Harvard. If we have another week like this they should be cracking that Top 25 on more ballots.

Exactly...PENN had the preseason hype by whom? I knew they weren't going to be that good...simply because I get to watch/pay attention to IVY games being here in the NE. Over the years I have always thought the IVIES have been overvalued (compared to that of the NEC teams). That said, how a Cal Poly team gets in over a Harvard is up for debate, a debate you bring to the forefront by stating Holy Cross may not be that good. However, Holy Cross rocked Howard and played a No. 8 UMASS to a 24 pt loss. Holy Cross is no slouch.

That said, I am not as disappointed that Harvard isnt in as I am in the fact that Montana is in.

[OL FU]

Harvard might be top 25, one of the problems with Harvard and some of the other Ivies. They don't play outside of their area of influence to give people a good comparison. Beating a team badly that has been beaten badly by other teams is not a worthwhile measurement.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Harvard might be top 25, one of the problems with Harvard and some of the other Ivies. They don't play outside of their area of influence to give people a good comparison. Beating a team badly that has been beaten badly by other teams is not a worthwhile measurement.

Fair enough, but if you saw the statline and Andrew Hatch's performance, I think a lot of voters would jump on the Harvard bandwagon. They were not in my Top 25 last week, but they certainly were this week. Well over Penn, too.

[Dane96]

OL_FU; True...which is why I dont have a major issue with the Harvard thing...plus that has been by thoughts over the years on the IVIES.

I am still shocked no one is all over the MONTANA thing. That is one of the most glaring and shocking WTF's I have seen on this poll in years. Beat Western State...then lose to a team barely making the Top 25...and then get beat by a Team that wasn't Top 10...yet you sit inside the Top 17? THEY DONT EVEN OWN A DI WIN!!!!

[URMite]

OL_FU; True...which is why I dont have a major issue with the Harvard thing...plus that has been by thoughts over the years on the IVIES.

I am still shocked no one is all over the MONTANA thing. That is one of the most glaring and shocking WTF's I have seen on this poll in years. Beat Western State...then lose to a team barely making the Top 25...and then get beat by a Team that wasn't Top 10...yet you sit inside the Top 17? THEY DONT EVEN OWN A DI WIN!!!!

Even if I contributed to the issue, I agree. Some people are still looking at reputation, some are still weighing last season too heavy, and a lot are starting with last weeks poll as a base and adding this week"s performance to shift teams around.

And no I don't want to discuss my vote...I actually thought about starting an apology thread before the poll was released...

[OL FU]

Fair enough, but if you saw the statline and Andrew Hatch's performance, I think a lot of voters would jump on the Harvard bandwagon. They were not in my Top 25 last week, but they certainly were this week. Well over Penn, too.

Nobody's is in mine cuz I haven't had time to think about it and am not participating in, which is why I probably should keep my mouth shutxsmiley_wix. Honestly I don't know. They could be top ten for all I know, just one of my pet peeves with the conference that won't do the playoffs and generally won't play out of their circle of friends.

[JMUNJ08]

OL_FU; True...which is why I dont have a major issue with the Harvard thing...plus that has been by thoughts over the years on the IVIES.

I am still shocked no one is all over the MONTANA thing. That is one of the most glaring and shocking WTF's I have seen on this poll in years. Beat Western State...then lose to a team barely making the Top 25...and then get beat by a Team that wasn't Top 10...yet you sit inside the Top 17? THEY DONT EVEN OWN A DI WIN!!!!

If it was any other week and most top 25 teams won they may have been pushed out or at least to the brink. UNH lost to URI and is still in. SIU is still in after losing to OVC SE Mizzu St. Both those teams are 1-2 with only UNH's win over CCSU who hasn't looked good as the D1 win. The only difference is that Montana lost to 2 quality FCS teams while SIU and UNH have an FBS loss and a bad FCS loss. I can't distinguish the difference myself but all 3 were pushed far down my poll.

The voters are really at a loss right now. 4 of the top 5 and 6 of the top 9 are CAA. That won't continue but all other major non-CAA title contenders took a hit this week for the most part (sans App St & SFA) (J'vill St. counts as an OT win at GaSt. counts as a hit)

[slycat]

If it was any other week and most top 25 teams won they may have been pushed out or at least to the brink. UNH lost to URI and is still in. SIU is still in after losing to OVC SE Mizzu St. Both those teams are 1-2 with only UNH's win over CCSU who hasn't looked good as the D1 win. The only difference is that Montana lost to 2 quality FCS teams while SIU and UNH have an FBS loss and a bad FCS loss. I can't distinguish the difference myself but all 3 were pushed far down my poll.

The voters are really at a loss right now. 4 of the top 5 and 6 of the top 9 are CAA. That won't continue but all other major non-CAA title contenders took a hit this week for the most part (sans App St & SFA) (J'vill St. counts as an OT win at GaSt. counts as a hit)

It s a joke that Montana, UNH, and SIU are ranked when they are 1-2 with no quality wins. What school other then Montana would be in with a D2 win and two losses? And the fact they are ahead of Cal Pol (2-1) is even worse.

[blukeys]

All due respect: Why is Montana even in the poll at this point. I am sorry, but they dont belong right now.

I can sort of see Cal Poly (had them just outside)...but I am baffled by Montana even with all the upsets. I also don't get how SAC STATE isnt in the poll if you have Montana in.

I agree 100%.

[Dane96]

If it was any other week and most top 25 teams won they may have been pushed out or at least to the brink. UNH lost to URI and is still in. SIU is still in after losing to OVC SE Mizzu St. Both those teams are 1-2 with only UNH's win over CCSU who hasn't looked good as the D1 win. The only difference is that Montana lost to 2 quality FCS teams while SIU and UNH have an FBS loss and a bad FCS loss. I can't distinguish the difference myself but all 3 were pushed far down my poll.

The voters are really at a loss right now. 4 of the top 5 and 6 of the top 9 are CAA. That won't continue but all other major non-CAA title contenders took a hit this week for the most part (sans App St & SFA) (J'vill St. counts as an OT win at GaSt. counts as a hit)

I am sorry, you're argument still doesnt answer the issue. Eastern Washington may be a quality team (I think they are right now). But Cal Poly is BORDERLINE. And up to this week, the only reason EWU was quality was on the basis of their win over Montana. So how can a team point to the team that beat them and cause their stock to go up and say...well, since they are quality I must be quality. It is circular reasoning.

And here is the bottom line: MONTANA DOES NOT OWN A DI win. I DONT CARE IF IT WAS ROBERT MORRIS IN THE POLL, DAYTON, HARVARD...or some school from a lesser conference (as perceived by others). The fact is, you dont get in a poll because the other teams may be weaker on paper or reputation...especially when you are 0-2 in DIVISION 1. Couple in that they are TOP 17....and that is ridiculous.

This is what is supposed to separate us from the bull**** of the TSN poll and the Coach's Poll.

[MacThor]

It's early. It's hard to re-sort your rankings when 11 of your ranked teams lose, most of them to lower or unranked teams. And a couple of top 10 teams had "stinker" wins against bad teams. FWIW, two Ivies made my top 25.

Montana gets some cred for having the third-best playoff record over the past three seasons. It may be unfair, it may be irrelevant to this season, but that's just how it works. It will all work out by the end of the year.

[Dane96]

No...it is not hard. And this is why pre-season polls skew things. THE POLLS ARE BASED ON A SEASONS WORK...not where they were. If a team deserves to be in they are in. If they deserve to be out...out. E.g., if you are No. 2...and you lose two straight games and only own a win against a Non-DI...I am dropping you out of my poll. If you come back and go 2-2...then you likely are coming back in.

Montana is 0-2 in DI and with two more losses is out of contention for playoff eligibility. Fact is, they have NOT PLAYED NO. 15 FOOTBALL THIS YEAR!! This isnt a reputational thing...it is a WHAT HAVE YOU DONE THIS YEAR ON THE FIELD.

It's that ****ing simple.

[UNH Fanboi]

There's still a very good chance that Montana is one of the best 25 teams in the country in spite of their record. They played two tough road games and lost very close games. Montana played a ton of close games last year (E Wash. 41-34, Northern Arizona 41-34 in OT, Idaho St. 12-10) but still managed to make it to the NCAA finals and almost win. Those games could have very easily been losses, but Montana still would have been the same team. Montana was "due" to finally run into the negative side of variance. I think it is still somewhat reasonable to believe that the #2 team last year does not all of a sudden suck.

[URMite]

Dane96,

What are your thoughts on UNH & SIU and how their situation compares to Montana?

[JMUNJ08]

I am sorry, you're argument still doesnt answer the issue. Eastern Washington may be a quality team (I think they are right now). But Cal Poly is BORDERLINE. And up to this week, the only reason EWU was quality was on the basis of their win over Montana. So how can a team point to the team that beat them and cause their stock to go up and say...well, since they are quality I must be quality. It is circular reasoning.

And here is the bottom line: MONTANA DOES NOT OWN A DI win. I DONT CARE IF IT WAS ROBERT MORRIS IN THE POLL, DAYTON, HARVARD...or some school from a lesser conference (as perceived by others). The fact is, you dont get in a poll because the other teams may be weaker on paper or reputation...especially when you are 0-2 in DIVISION 1. Couple in that they are TOP 17....and that is ridiculous.

This is what is supposed to separate us from the bull**** of the TSN poll and the Coach's Poll.

Wasn't trying to give an answer as I really didn't have one when I did my voting either. Many other teams from lesser conferences or who played lesser opponnents had close games / questionable losses as well. I tried to search for semi-decent 3-0 / 2-1 win teams and was left with little to choose from even there.

Example: I wanted to put Rob Morris in but they had a tight win over Sacred Heart who was PUMMELED by St. Francis and a loss to Dayton who was beaten by Duq. Yes they beat Liberty but does that make them a better team then UNH? I don't know. If Liberty beats JMU next week do they move to the top 10 and JMU to 20+? I doubt it. And if Liberty is top 10 does Rob Morris go above them because of Head to Head? Should be in many minds but right now I don't know who would rank them there with their resume.

Rep has something to do with it and so does the quality of the team put on the field. At some point in the season we all will realized team A has the talent but can't win the games while team B doesn't have the same schedule/pedigree but is a legit playoff contender. Similar to Texas Terrors Playoff Thread, these are just to generate discussion at the point in the season.

Additionally, I still think the AGS poll is doing a better job then the TSN poll and others so far this season.

[ToTheLeft]

No...it is not hard. And this is why pre-season polls skew things. THE POLLS ARE BASED ON A SEASONS WORK...not where they were. If a team deserves to be in they are in. If they deserve to be out...out. E.g., if you are No. 2...and you lose two straight games and only own a win against a Non-DI...I am dropping you out of my poll. If you come back and go 2-2...then you likely are coming back in.

Montana is 0-2 in DI and with two more losses is out of contention for playoff eligibility. Fact is, they have NOT PLAYED NO. 15 FOOTBALL THIS YEAR!! This isnt a reputational thing...it is a WHAT HAVE YOU DONE THIS YEAR ON THE FIELD.

It's that ****ing simple.

This.

[Rob Iola]

Meh. This is FCS, we got conference matchups, we got playoffs, we got polls - basically we've got multiple ways to make sure that at the end of the season this all works itself out. Cal Poly beat Montana, therefore they're better than Montana - that simple. And this coming Saturday we get Richmond vs. Delaware - winner advances in the polls.

Speaking of Delaware, they're 3-0, beat the then-9th ranked team, and are ranked in the top 10 - and yet are only 4th best team in their conference (and deservedly so)...

[UNH Fanboi]

Many other teams from lesser conferences or who played lesser opponnents had close games / questionable losses as well. I tried to search for semi-decent 3-0 / 2-1 win teams and was left with little to choose from even there.

I had the same problem. Perfect example: I had Gardner-Webb in last week for beating an FBS, but this week they lost to Western Carolina, who lost to a D2 team.

[Dane96]

Dane96,

What are your thoughts on UNH & SIU and how their situation compares to Montana?

I dropped UNH from 4 to 16...so...comparable considereing UNH still beat a Division 1 team. They also get some points for a tough game against PITT (and when I say points I mean they are status quo from that game, as they dont move up or down significantly). Frankly, I wished I could have put them lower...but there weren't many teams deserving of being higher. If UNH didnt have that DI win...they would likely be in my 26-30 range.

SIU went from 3 to 8 to out in my poll. Unfortunately, I made a boo-boo and kept them in when I hit OK. If it mattered, i would ask they be taken out of my poll. A 70-3 win at Quincy is not enough. They are actually in a worse boat than Montana IMHO.

[Dane96]

Wasn't trying to give an answer as I really didn't have one when I did my voting either. Many other teams from lesser conferences or who played lesser opponnents had close games / questionable losses as well. I tried to search for semi-decent 3-0 / 2-1 win teams and was left with little to choose from even there.

Example: I wanted to put Rob Morris in but they had a tight win over Sacred Heart who was PUMMELED by St. Francis and a loss to Dayton who was beaten by Duq. Yes they beat Liberty but does that make them a better team then UNH? I don't know. If Liberty beats JMU next week do they move to the top 10 and JMU to 20+? I doubt it. And if Liberty is top 10 does Rob Morris go above them because of Head to Head? Should be in many minds but right now I don't know who would rank them there with their resume.

Rep has something to do with it and so does the quality of the team put on the field. At some point in the season we all will realized team A has the talent but can't win the games while team B doesn't have the same schedule/pedigree but is a legit playoff contender. Similar to Texas Terrors Playoff Thread, these are just to generate discussion at the point in the season.

Additionally, I still think the AGS poll is doing a better job then the TSN poll and others so far this season.

RMU (who I didnt put in)...has DI wins...no matter who their losses are. Montana and SIU do not have one win between them. It is that simple. Again, if Montana loses two more games (conceivable) they are on the playoff ropes.

You can't totally play the this team beat that team...vs. that team game. We all do it though...but you need to use common sense. I think one year we could trace an FCS team who beat someone that was No. 2 in FBS by the linkage reasoning. It is suspect at best.

[MacThor]

FCS polls are going to be a mess for a while. The FBS pollsters have 30 undefeated teams to choose from. How many FCS teams are undefeated AND have a "quality" FCS win so far?

Montana is overrated, to be sure. But it's not like there are a ton of teams in the ORV that are "screaming buys" for the top 20.

[JMUNJ08]

RMU (who I didnt put in)...has DI wins...no matter who their losses are. Montana and SIU do not have one win between them. It is that simple. Again, if Montana loses two more games (conceivable) they are on the playoff ropes.

You can't totally play the this team beat that team...vs. that team game. We all do it though...but you need to use common sense. I think one year we could trace an FCS team who beat someone that was No. 2 in FBS by the linkage reasoning. It is suspect at best.

I couldn't agree more and that is why I hate it. A 1-10 URI can't be ranked ahead of a 7-4 UNH at seasons end. But URI beat UNH so that makes people rank them ahead? Poor logic. Its the body of work overall and if there is no clear distinction, then head to head. I don't see many crying that Robert Morris (deserves a look though) isn't in the poll ahead of Liberty this week. I wonder why.....Is it their body of work is better? (FBS win vs. 4pt win against Sacred Heart)

For the no D1 wins/ playoffs: If this poll was based on their likelyhood to make the playoffs, then SIU/Monty would be lower definitely. However, a NDSU years ago was ranked in the top 5 most of the season with no way of making the post season. The poll is on how good the team is/ you think they are going to be and not playoff projections. The polls may be factored in but a top 10 7-4 SIU with only 6 D1 wins is probably on the outside looking in. JMU made (I believe) the final AGS or TSN poll last year at 6-5. Many considered that team to be top 25-30 in the country but were only .500.

Things will work out don't worry!

[MSUBear42]

Missouri State= Out of sight, out of mind.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

All the more reason 96 why there shouldn't be a poll until October. After three weeks things usually start to sort themselves out, but not this year with that wacky week three!

As for Harvard or any other Ivy, their refusual to participate in the playoffs always puts me in a why should I care about them and do any research mode. Unless they do a few things to really grab my attention, I don't give them much thought when I do my poll. Since they have so few OOC games that are outside the Patriot (and the Patriot doesn't have that many OOC games outside the Ivy), it is very difficult to gauge the quality of an Ivy team.

Another thing to keep in mind with Montana and some others is that I'm assuming most posters don't want to penalize a team too severely for one game. When a team starts so highly, I think it's unrealistic for them to fall out of the Top 25 over two games. No movement after a D-II win, then a couple of steep falls in the next two weeks. Another loss and they'll be gone. Same with some others.

All I know is that if there are as many Top 25 losing teams next week then that poll is going to really take some time to complete!!

[NHwildEcat]

It s a joke that Montana, UNH, and SIU are ranked when they are 1-2 with no quality wins. What school other then Montana would be in with a D2 win and two losses? And the fact they are ahead of Cal Pol (2-1) is even worse.

You're right...I can say that I didn't hve any of them in my top 25...it isn't as hard when you look at what teams have actually done on the field through the first 3 weeks of this season.

[Screamin_Eagle174]

There's still a very good chance that Montana is one of the best 25 teams in the country in spite of their record. They played two tough road games and lost very close games. Montana played a ton of close games last year (E Wash. 41-34, Northern Arizona 41-34 in OT, Idaho St. 12-10) but still managed to make it to the NCAA finals and almost win. Those games could have very easily been losses, but Montana still would have been the same team. Montana was "due" to finally run into the negative side of variance. I think it is still somewhat reasonable to believe that the #2 team last year does not all of a sudden suck.


You're dead on with this assessment. Polls aren't just a ranking simply on record, they [should] factor in how the team plays (win or loss), and who their opponent was. Yes, UM is 0-2 against D-I, but both games were on the road, and against perennial top-20 teams, and despite a plethora of turnovers by the Griz, they still almost won both of those games. Next week is the make or break game for them... if they can't beat a good Sac State team at home in Missoula, then by all means drop them. But as of now it's too early to tell. Enough of the whining already.

[MacThor]

Week 4 should make it even more interesting:

5 head-to-head matches between ranked teams, 2 ranked vs FBS, and 4 ranked vs high-ORV. 16 ranked teams should be "on the move."

[WileECoyote06]

If a voter is being fair with his algorithm for moving teams up and down; it was difficult to remove Montana from the poll. In other words, suppose you count things like this:

9 spots for losing to a non-ranked team
5 spots for losing to a ranked team below the team in question
3 spots for losing to a ranked team above the team in question

Well, with Montana, suppose you had them as the #1 team in the country in Week 2. . .

Loss to Cal Poly drops them nine spots to #10. The following week loss to a ranked E. Washington team on the road; causes them to drop to #15.

These losses are also heavily influenced by location and the closeness of the games. I wanted to drop Montana out of the poll, but could really find no other logical reason to do it, besides their loss record.

I am not going to lie though, Liberty caught the hammer. And I placed Harvard and SE Missouri State in the poll. I don't think SEMSU will last, but I feel they should have received more than 15 votes.

[Side Judge]

I couldn't agree more and that is why I hate it. A 1-10 URI can't be ranked ahead of a 7-4 UNH at seasons end. But URI beat UNH so that makes people rank them ahead? Poor logic. Its the body of work overall and if there is no clear distinction, then head to head. I don't see many crying that Robert Morris (deserves a look though) isn't in the poll ahead of Liberty this week. I wonder why.....Is it their body of work is better? (FBS win vs. 4pt win against Sacred Heart)
...

If UNH makes it to 7-4 I can buy this logic, but even if they beat Lehigh, Maine, and Towson they would still need to win 3 of Richmond, JMU, UMass, W&M, and Nova to get to 7 wins - frankly they're looking at a 4 or 5 win season (and therefore wouldn't have to worry about their ranking relative to URI). My point is that a good team can overcome a loss to an "inferior" team and not risk a significant blow to their ranking, but they've got to be good enough over the course of the season to warrant that kind of support.

[Gil Dobie]

Missouri State= Out of sight, out of mind.

Had them in mine.

[tribefan40]

Too many teams holding on to reputation. But I've come to accept that a little more. At least UMass leaped W and M.

I know, Finally! But wait, Robert Morris isn't ranked ahead of Liberty? Outrageous! xrulesx

[ToTheLeft]

I know, Finally! But wait, Robert Morris isn't ranked ahead of Liberty? Outrageous! xrulesx

We have a decent win, not just Butterflies and Kangaroos. :P

And there was no reason after week 1 for WM to be ahead of UMass. It took until this week for that to sort out, which is kinda sad.

[MSUDuo]

Missouri State= Out of sight, out of mind.

Even more of a reason to make sure we take care of business next weekend. Personally, I think it would take us getting to 6-1 before we cracked the Top25 in any of these polls

[tribefan40]

We have a decent win, not just Butterflies and Kangaroos. :P

And there was no reason after week 1 for WM to be ahead of UMass. It took until this week for that to sort out, which is kinda sad.

Agreed. UMass is the real deal and will be a force to be reckoned with all season. I just couldn't resist commenting after all the time you've spent talking about head-to-head matchups.

All kidding aside, I think saturday was just a hiccup for you guys and minus an upset, you should end up in a nice spot with the AQ this year.

[kab]

Looks like ndsu is over rated, will see if South Dakota is over rated too, go yotes.

[srgrizizen]

Both of these correct. Many, like Danefan96, like to vote in a "what have you done most recently" vacuum. From this perspective, it is perfectly reasonable to throw Montana out of the rankings. But does it really matter? It's only week 3 for crying out loud. If UM continues to lose, they'll be gone soon enough. Who's going to remember where anybody was in the week three poll? However, if Danefan96 wants to make radical ranking changes based on only the most recent performance, he must also be prepared to jump teams from nowhere to back in the thick of things from week to week.

[WileECoyote06]

Both of these correct. Many, like Danefan96, like to vote in a "what have you done most recently" vacuum. From this perspective, it is perfectly reasonable to throw Montana out of the rankings. But does it really matter? It's only week 3 for crying out loud. If UM continues to lose, they'll be gone soon enough. Who's going to remember where anybody was in the week three poll? However, if Danefan96 wants to make radical ranking changes based on only the most recent performance, he must also be prepared to jump teams from nowhere to back in the thick of things from week to week.

And that's why you have to temper things. Montana could easily go on an eight game winning streak to end the season. . . and end up back in the top ten . xcoffeex

[JMUNJ08]

We have a decent win, not just Butterflies and Kangaroos. :P

And there was no reason after week 1 for WM to be ahead of UMass. It took until this week for that to sort out, which is kinda sad.

Game on the Big 10 Network really helped open a lot more eyes! Plus, just looking at the box score/ highlights too...UMass is 1 team that has overcome the preseason ranking bug and so it has begun!

[Pard4Life]

No NEC respect? I have Robert Morris 25! And Penn 18. Was debating Harvard but I want to see them play first.

I had Montana 20, SIU 17, UNH 16. Like SDSU, another bad loss by the first two and poof.

And WHO gave Lehigh 2! votes! I saw all of their games and no no way are they near this poll.

[Dane96]

Both of these correct. Many, like Danefan96, like to vote in a "what have you done most recently" vacuum. From this perspective, it is perfectly reasonable to throw Montana out of the rankings. But does it really matter? It's only week 3 for crying out loud. If UM continues to lose, they'll be gone soon enough. Who's going to remember where anybody was in the week three poll? However, if Danefan96 wants to make radical ranking changes based on only the most recent performance, he must also be prepared to jump teams from nowhere to back in the thick of things from week to week.

Actually, if you read what I wrote...or over the years what I have done...then you would know I am exactly OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU WROTE. However, I am a proponent on a SEASON'S BODY OF WORK...and of banning pre-season polls which artificially set the bar for exactly what has happened this week.

Riddle me this: How many people would be furious if, for example, an 0-2 (insert major FBS program) team were ranked in the Top 15 of the AP POLL but a 2-0 Northwestern was not (all FBS wins).

But thanks for putting words in my mouth that are not mine.

[SalukiJim]

Dane96,

What are your thoughts on UNH & SIU and how their situation compares to Montana?

As far as SIU goes they need to forget about any rankings and concentrate on getting better, fast. They have defensive troubles and a brewing QB controversy. And conference play starts on the road this week!

[rcny46]

I think UMass is the real deal this year. There definitely aren't 12 teams that have looked better than them so far.


I also think that they have a couple of running backs that is the equal of any in the FCS.

[JMUNJ08]

Actually, if you read what I wrote...or over the years what I have done...then you would know I am exactly OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU WROTE. However, I am a proponent on a SEASON'S BODY OF WORK...and of banning pre-season polls which artificially set the bar for exactly what has happened this week.

Riddle me this: How many people would be furious if, for example, an 0-2 (insert major FBS program) team were ranked in the Top 15 of the AP POLL but a 2-0 Northwestern was not (all FBS wins).

But thanks for putting words in my mouth that are not mine.

If Alabama (current pedigree of Montana) was 0-2 vs similar teams (Georgia/ Clemson) I think you would see them late teens to 20ish. ANY OTHER TEAM minus maybe Ohio State would be out of there. There are so few and I think that is why Montana is there. If Nova or JMU did a 1-2 start like that I think they would be hoping to be ranked at all...

[ngineer]

That Harvard is not a Top 25 team is a complete joke.

Especially with Montana not having beaten an FCS school this year. It's done on the field this year, not what you did last year.

[Dane96]

If Alabama (current pedigree of Montana) was 0-2 vs similar teams (Georgia/ Clemson) I think you would see them late teens to 20ish. ANY OTHER TEAM minus maybe Ohio State would be out of there. There are so few and I think that is why Montana is there. If Nova or JMU did a 1-2 start like that I think they would be hoping to be ranked at all...

Cal Poly- what have they done but beat Montana
EWU- has done at least something.

Both...had possible exaggerated pre-season rankings (though EWU seems like the real deal). And no, in 36 years of life I cannot remember the last time any 0-2 team was in the AP Poll...but I could be wrong.

You are making poor analogies.

[HensRock]

If a voter is being fair with his algorithm for moving teams up and down; it was difficult to remove Montana from the poll. In other words, suppose you count things like this:

9 spots for losing to a non-ranked team
5 spots for losing to a ranked team below the team in question
3 spots for losing to a ranked team above the team in question


Starting from what? You're own poll last week, or from the overall AGS Poll last week?
I think Move Up/Move Down algorithms like this are what get us into situations (rankings) that don't make a lot of sense. At the very least, the magnitudes of the movements should decrease as the season progresses and teams build bigger and bigger bodies of work. But the main problem I see with this type of algorithm is that it perpetuates any mistakes you had in your pre-season poll and any mistakes you had from the previous week. It assumes your last week's poll was "right" and you are just making adjustments.

For me, I like to imagine team A and team B playing each other on a neutral field. If you think team A would win, you should rank them highter.
Someone earlier was comparing Montana and RMU in terms of playoff "worthiness". The Top 25 Poll should have nothing to do with playoff worthiness, # of div I wins, or any other artificial criteria. Put Montana and RMU on a neutral field. Who wins? 'Nuff said.

[putter]

I think a lot of it is what kind of team a school puts out year after year. I have Montana 16, why, because looking at teams that are below I don't believe are as good as the Griz this year. EWU and Taiwan Jones gave Nevada all it could handle and actually had better numbers than Cal did against the Pack. If Montana loses again and goes to 0-3 against FCS then drop them out of the ranking, no questions asked, but the ball has been bouncing the other way this year so they have work to do. Montana historically has a team that is capable of competing for the NC, some other teams that are ranked in the lower half of the polls can not say that.

[WileECoyote06]

Starting from what? You're own poll last week, or from the overall AGS Poll last week?
I think Move Up/Move Down algorithms like this are what get us into situations (rankings) that don't make a lot of sense. At the very least, the magnitudes of the movements should decrease as the season progresses and teams build bigger and bigger bodies of work. But the main problem I see with this type of algorithm is that it perpetuates any mistakes you had in your pre-season poll and any mistakes you had from the previous week. It assumes your last week's poll was "right" and you are just making adjustments.

For me, I like to imagine team A and team B playing each other on a neutral field. If you think team A would win, you should rank them highter.
Someone earlier was comparing Montana and RMU in terms of playoff "worthiness". The Top 25 Poll should have nothing to do with playoff worthiness, # of div I wins, or any other artificial criteria. Put Montana and RMU on a neutral field. Who wins? 'Nuff said.

You're absolutely right about the magnitudes changing as the season progresses. And you have a better idea about the actual strength of the teams and their conferences. I begin with my own submitted poll and go from there. Developing a (losing) algorithm that applies to all teams helps eliminate bias. And even if it is adjusted slightly every week; at least it is consistent for that particular poll and all teams are treated fairly. I believe polls measure the success of the team against its schedule.

Of course you should feel as if your last week poll is right; you created the poll; and this is my personal philosophy: I try not to overreact to wins or losses. This can cause a team to make super jumps in the poll, and then fall even further when they eventually lose. My philosophy helps to balance my poll over the season, as teams build their body of work.

[JMUNJ08]

Cal Poly- what have they done but beat Montana
EWU- has done at least something.

Both...had possible exaggerated pre-season rankings (though EWU seems like the real deal). And no, in 36 years of life I cannot remember the last time any 0-2 team was in the AP Poll...but I could be wrong.

You are making poor analogies.

They would be 1-2 with an FCS win in that case which did happen a few years ago if I recall...For EWU/Cal Poly you can say the same thing for UGA and Clemson. That was my point with similar type teams.

Would you say that Alabama would drop out of the poll if they lost 2 of 3 to start the season against equivilant FBS competition to Montana's at the FCS level? I doubt it...Voters know they are a really talented team that is better than teams who have loaded up on 2/3 cream puffs so far.

[URMite]

Starting from what? You're own poll last week, or from the overall AGS Poll last week?
I think Move Up/Move Down algorithms like this are what get us into situations (rankings) that don't make a lot of sense. At the very least, the magnitudes of the movements should decrease as the season progresses and teams build bigger and bigger bodies of work. But the main problem I see with this type of algorithm is that it perpetuates any mistakes you had in your pre-season poll and any mistakes you had from the previous week. It assumes your last week's poll was "right" and you are just making adjustments.

For me, I like to imagine team A and team B playing each other on a neutral field. If you think team A would win, you should rank them highter.
Someone earlier was comparing Montana and RMU in terms of playoff "worthiness". The Top 25 Poll should have nothing to do with playoff worthiness, # of div I wins, or any other artificial criteria. Put Montana and RMU on a neutral field. Who wins? 'Nuff said.

The Team A vs Team B on a neutral field is a great idea. Although occasionally, I will see the strengths and weaknesses of certain teams don't match up consistently and I end up with Team Rock, Team Paper, and Team Scissors.

[asknoquarter21]

I understand the reasoning behind putting Montana in the rankings, but zero Div 1 wins is zero Div 1 wins. Preseason rankings do matter at this point still because you base your initial rankings off history and talent returning. The problem is you have to phase out the preseason rankings at some point, and with a 1-2 Montana team that has top 15 talent they haven't showed it. Montana is in a similar situation to what ASU faced the last two seasons where early losses put their backs against the wall. So with that in mind I have two ways of thinking on this subject.

1. Montana has top FCS talent and is going through a transistion. They will continue to play better, but will it come too late? My head says you are going to be hard pressed to find a team in the 15-25 range that should beat Montana, but the last two weeks have shown differently. Basing Montana on talent and potential with glaring question marks still there has me ranking Montana around 20.

2. Montana has 2 losses against teams that are not as good as them talent wise. EWU might crack the top 10 this season, and I wasn't shocked to see Montana lose that game(which might have been their toughest game anyway). Cal Poly is a team most wouldn't have expected to be in the top 25 this season and borderline if that. So as I look to find a similar resume to what Montana has done to compare the teams directly I can't help but think about Chattanooga. (1-2) with close losses to #3 and #4 in the FCS. EKU isn't great, but it is a D-1 win.

So is Montana better than Chattanooga???

[blukeys]

So as I look to find a similar resume to what Montana has done to compare the teams directly I can't help but think about Chattanooga. (1-2) with close losses to #3 and #4 in the FCS. EKU isn't great, but it is a D-1 win.

So is Montana better than Chattanooga???

As Bill Parcells always used to say it. You are what your record says you are. Chatty 1-2 vs. FCS, Montana 0-2 vs. FCS.

[Eaglegus2]

I wouldn't stress to much on how Montana is doing or any other FCS school. After week 5 or 6 everything will begin to take shape as the poll will begin to work correctly.


I just hope everyone overlooks the Eagles. I don't think we will make the playoffs but it will be an exciting year. Elon is this Saturday. We will gauge our season by the performance on Saturday as it will tell us how our freshman is adjusting to the option.

I didn't participate in this years poll because I have limited time to put into the poll. Have fun because it is difficult sometimes placing teams.

[Rob Iola]

I think a lot of it is what kind of team a school puts out year after year. I have Montana 16, why, because looking at teams that are below I don't believe are as good as the Griz this year. EWU and Taiwan Jones gave Nevada all it could handle and actually had better numbers than Cal did against the Pack. If Montana loses again and goes to 0-3 against FCS then drop them out of the ranking, no questions asked, but the ball has been bouncing the other way this year so they have work to do. Montana historically has a team that is capable of competing for the NC, some other teams that are ranked in the lower half of the polls can not say that.

So can Montana lose 2 more conference games and still hope to make the playoffs (assuming they miss out on the AQ), or are they limited to only 1 more conference loss max? Cuz that's where rankings are important - an unranked 7-4 team really has no hope, but with Montana's pedigree the committee might take them at 7-4 (especially with the expanded playoffs), which would mean that they really are ranked in the minds of those who's opinion matters...

Oh, and I think we can all safely guess what the GOTW will be for the weekend of Nov. 20...

[MacThor]

Oh, and I think we can all safely guess what the GOTW will be for the weekend of Nov. 20...

Delaware/Villanova? UR/W&M? ;)

To be fair, at least Montana is lower in the AGS poll than in TSN and the coaches' polls.

[Dane96]

I understand the reasoning behind putting Montana in the rankings, but zero Div 1 wins is zero Div 1 wins. Preseason rankings do matter at this point still because you base your initial rankings off history and talent returning. The problem is you have to phase out the preseason rankings at some point, and with a 1-2 Montana team that has top 15 talent they haven't showed it. Montana is in a similar situation to what ASU faced the last two seasons where early losses put their backs against the wall. So with that in mind I have two ways of thinking on this subject.

1. Montana has top FCS talent and is going through a transistion. They will continue to play better, but will it come too late? My head says you are going to be hard pressed to find a team in the 15-25 range that should beat Montana, but the last two weeks have shown differently. Basing Montana on talent and potential with glaring question marks still there has me ranking Montana around 20.

2. Montana has 2 losses against teams that are not as good as them talent wise. EWU might crack the top 10 this season, and I wasn't shocked to see Montana lose that game(which might have been their toughest game anyway). Cal Poly is a team most wouldn't have expected to be in the top 25 this season and borderline if that. So as I look to find a similar resume to what Montana has done to compare the teams directly I can't help but think about Chattanooga. (1-2) with close losses to #3 and #4 in the FCS. EKU isn't great, but it is a D-1 win.

So is Montana better than Chattanooga???

Couldnt have said it better. In fact, you took the team I was thinking about and made the comparison here: Chattanooga played a heck of two games...yet I couldnt justify putting them in yet. However, when I was toying with the idea of dropping Montana...I looked at Chatty.

[Dane96]

Delaware/Villanova? UR/W&M? ;)

To be fair, at least Montana is lower in the AGS poll than in TSN and the coaches' polls.

Very true.

I dont know who puts out a ****tier poll: TSN or the Coaches.

[GtFllsGriz]

Don't blow a gasket Dane96, it will work out soon enough. You may very well be correct but you may be very wrong also. Most Griz fans agree that they were rated way to high to start the season. History plays a part in every preseason poll. That is the reality.

The Griz have not played even close to their potential yet. And they may not all season. There is a ton of talent but a new coaching staff, system and new players added into the mix. You can downplay the Cal Poly game all you want but they are a tough team to prepare for and beat at their place. And EWU is a very solid and good team. Their game with Montana State (another very good team) will reveal alot this week. Two very tough games to start the season for a team in transition. I would rather lose those two games then two games at the end of the season. Every conference is going to begin to shift now that they start beating up on each other.

It will work out in the end so don't stress so much about it. We want you around at the end of the season to analyze it all for us. Just kidding!

[srgrizizen]

Actually, if you read what I wrote...or over the years what I have done...then you would know I am exactly OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU WROTE. However, I am a proponent on a SEASON'S BODY OF WORK...and of banning pre-season polls which artificially set the bar for exactly what has happened this week.

Riddle me this: How many people would be furious if, for example, an 0-2 (insert major FBS program) team were ranked in the Top 15 of the AP POLL but a 2-0 Northwestern was not (all FBS wins).

But thanks for putting words in my mouth that are not mine.

Sorry, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth Danefan. As an opponent of preseason polls, you are certainly logical to say that Montana does not belong in the poll based on this season's work. But I still think you're a bit too worked up about an utterly inconsequential early season poll. And the AP poll also uses preseason polls and does not throw out their top picks based solely on early close losses. And not everybody on here thinks preseason polls are totally illegitimate, (though they may turn out to be WRONG). xtwocentsx

[putter]

So can Montana lose 2 more conference games and still hope to make the playoffs (assuming they miss out on the AQ), or are they limited to only 1 more conference loss max? Cuz that's where rankings are important - an unranked 7-4 team really has no hope, but with Montana's pedigree the committee might take them at 7-4 (especially with the expanded playoffs), which would mean that they really are ranked in the minds of those who's opinion matters...

Oh, and I think we can all safely guess what the GOTW will be for the weekend of Nov. 20...

That is a great point. With the expansion of the playoffs, if Montana goes 7-4, and that record will get you in then you know Montana is in with their background and what they bring to the NCAA in terms of $$$$. Hopefully it won't come to that but if the last team in will be a 7-4 team and the committee has, for example, Montana, Chattanooga, or Elon then you look to $$$$ and that is their advantage. Right or not that is what will happen.

[ngineer]

So can Montana lose 2 more conference games and still hope to make the playoffs (assuming they miss out on the AQ), or are they limited to only 1 more conference loss max? Cuz that's where rankings are important - an unranked 7-4 team really has no hope, but with Montana's pedigree the committee might take them at 7-4 (especially with the expanded playoffs), which would mean that they really are ranked in the minds of those who's opinion matters...

Oh, and I think we can all safely guess what the GOTW will be for the weekend of Nov. 20...


..as always, Lehigh v. Lafayette. Game #146xnodx

[SumItUp]

That is a great point. With the expansion of the playoffs, if Montana goes 7-4, and that record will get you in then you know Montana is in with their background and what they bring to the NCAA in terms of $$$$. Hopefully it won't come to that but if the last team in will be a 7-4 team and the committee has, for example, Montana, Chattanooga, or Elon then you look to $$$$ and that is their advantage. Right or not that is what will happen.

If Montana finishes 7-4, they will only have 6 D1 wins and will not be eligible for the playoffs. Montana needs to finish at least 8-3 to make the playoffs. I still believe they will win 8 games this year, but crazier things have happened.

[TexasTerror]

9/21 - same links as the above two posts...

1. South Carolina State Bulldogs (30) 2-1 300 1
2. Florida A&M Rattlers 2-1 262 3
3. Norfolk State Spartans 2-1 201 5
4. Grambling State Tigers 1-1 195 6
5. Albany State Golden Rams 3-0 143 7
6. Winston-Salem State Rams 4-0 127 9
7. Prairie View A&M Panthers 1-2 115 2
8. Tuskegee Golden Tigers 2-1 101 4
9. Alabama State Hornets 3-0 74 NR
10. Morehouse Tigers 4-0 47 NR
Others receiving votes (in order of points): Tennessee State 35, Texas Southern 31, Hampton 22, Jackson State 19, Shaw 16.