Ivy League requests exemption for counter status towards FBS games

[bonarae]

Saw this on the other board, haven't seen anyone posting it here yet.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/yb/149891154


The concession by the NCAA would be to allow games between the Ivy League and FBS teams to count toward bowl eligibility. UConn's win over Texas Southern last Saturday, for instance, counts toward bowl eligibility for UConn because Texas Southern is an FCS athletic scholarship school -- as is most of the FCS. The Ivy League is not an athletic scholarship league, so at this point it wouldn't be a bowl eligible game for the FBS opponent. And unless the NCAA grants a waiver for games against the Ivy League to count toward bowl eligibility -- which is pending as we speak -- there would be little incentive for an FBS team to schedule one of Ancient Eight.

Yale's 2014 season opener against Army -- to commemorate the 100th anniversary of Yale Bowl -- will be a test case of whether the NCAA is inclined to give Army a waiver to count the Yale game toward bowl eligibility. Army is committed to play either way, but the NCAA isn't likely to give its answer until the year before the game.

If this will be granted - as I say, FBS-Ivy games can be feasible once more! xhurrayx Just hope we won't get humiliated every year. xsmhx

[danefan]

I jacked it from Bogus's PL thread. But I think it deserves a thread of its own over here anyway.

Ivy League teams are a very attractive FCS opponent for a lot of FBS teams.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Of course I think it's important for the NCAA to grant the exemption only to Ivy, what with its remarkable contributions over the years to helping grow the profile of the FCS playoffs and its open, completely transparent system of providing nearly every player with four full years of education, gratis, without calling it a "scholarship."

And we had to turn down Rutgers and Duke.

Am I missing something here? I'm perplexed and I'm looking for reasons not to be off-the-chart angry here.

[aceinthehole]

I think it's important for the NCAA to grant the exemption only to the Ivy, what with its remarkable contributions over the years to helping grow the profile of the FCS playoffs and its open, completely transparent system of providing nearly every player with four full years of education, gratis, without calling it a "scholarship."

And we had to turn down Rutgers and Duke.

Am I missing something here?

I assume you are being sarcastic.

I think all FCS teams (including the Ivy, PL, NEC) should be 'bowl counters' and eligible to play FBS teams!

[Bogus Megapardus]

I assume you are being sarcastic.

I think all FCS teams (including the Ivy, PL, NEC) should be 'bowl counters' and eligible to play FBS teams!

This appears to be an Ivy-only request to the NCAA. The morticians in Center Valley had better wake from their somnolence. Soon. Like today, maybe.

[DetroitFlyer]

I assume you are being sarcastic.

I think all FCS teams (including the Ivy, PL, NEC) should be 'bowl counters' and eligible to play FBS teams!

Completely agree!!

[carney2]

The Ivies deserve this "exemption" because they want it. No one else need apply.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The Ivies deserve this "exemption" because they want it. No one else need apply.

I suspect this "request" comes "fully funded" as well.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So, let me get this straight. The Ivy League is "non-scholarship". Just like the Pioneer League and D-III. So much so, that teams are no longer scheduling some Patriot League opponents since they're not "non-scholarship" enough.

They will also keep the ten-game season, and not participate in the postseason. All on principle, of course. Bye weeks are the by-product of evil stuff like TV money. Postseason is postseason, and no postseason is "pure".

But now they want to play FBS teams. Then, principles go out the window. Why? For money? Prestige? Scheuling?

But they'll still be "non-scholarship," of course. For purity's sake.

xrolleyesx xconfusedx

It's patently obvious that the IL has been hypocritical for years. But this one really takes the cake.

[Bogus Megapardus]

this one really takes the cake

Lemme guess - there might be an LFN blog in this somewhere.

[DFW HOYA]

This would also help Princeton line up Rutgers for the 150th Annniversary game in 2019. The I-A teams fill these schedules 6-8 years in advance so Princeton needs to act soon.

[bonarae]

So, let me get this straight. The Ivy League is "non-scholarship". Just like the Pioneer League and D-III. So much so, that teams are no longer scheduling some Patriot League opponents since they're not "non-scholarship" enough.

They will also keep the ten-game season, and not participate in the postseason. All on principle, of course. Bye weeks are the by-product of evil stuff like TV money. Postseason is postseason, and no postseason is "pure".

But now they want to play FBS teams. Then, principles go out the window. Why? For money? Prestige? Scheuling?

But they'll still be "non-scholarship," of course. For purity's sake.

xrolleyesx xconfusedx

It's patently obvious that the IL has been hypocritical for years. But this one really takes the cake.

I also get xconfusedx by this as well. How about the SWAC? They don't participate in the playoffs because they are just after $$$ and they feel that playoff participation contributes to low attendance, which in turn contributes to low $$$ turnouts. But they allow their teams to schedule FBS and top-tier FCS teams. I hope the Ivy presidents will eventually wake up to the realities that their hypocrisies don't work well with the way the modern system imposes on other FCS conferences (save the SWAC).

[bulldog10jw]

I don't care how it happens, I just want an 11th game. xrulesx

[ngineer]

Of course I think it's important for the NCAA to grant the exemption only to Ivy, what with its remarkable contributions over the years to helping grow the profile of the FCS playoffs and its open, completely transparent system of providing nearly every player with four full years of education, gratis, without calling it a "scholarship."
And we had to turn down Rutgers and Duke.

Am I missing something here? I'm perplexed and I'm looking for reasons not to be off-the-chart angry here.

"Bingo"...That many be the basis for the 'exemption'...i.e. they really do give scholarships with lipstick to make them look like grants in aid. By basically seeking the exemption, IL tacitly admits the situation and therefore there wouldn't be an repercussions by the PL going scholly.

[bonarae]

I don't care how it happens, I just want an 11th game. xrulesx

Right. Same here with me. We BADLY need an 11th game!

[Bogus Megapardus]

I see this as nothing but a positive for The Patriot League--provided we don't apply for and get the same waiver since that would take away one big arguement for scholarships. The hope is that TPL wouldn't apply for it or get it since we offer offer scholarships in other sports. The real hope is that the Ivies feel that TPL is getting scholarships and this is a way for them to continue to compete and or win in recruiting wars.

This could be the most prescient view, Gater. It presupposes that Center Valley actually is paying attention that there is actually an evil genius to the scheme. It could mean:





- Patriot is going to allow football scholarships in one fashion or another. It already permits, in one degree or another, scholarships in basketball, lacrosse, field hockey, wrestling, etc. The Patriot as a whole can no longer call itself a non-scholarship conference because of the decision to allow these other scholarships; it is highly competitive on a national level in many of these sports.

- Ivy maintains that it allows no scholarships in any sport. It is also highly competitive at a national level in many of these other sports. Continued recognition of Ivy's wholly non-scholarship status is critically important to certain interests within its members' walls. So much so that when Cornell recently chose to give public recognition to its de facto loan-to-grant conversion process it was chastised firmly the boss, by H-Y-P.

- Pretty much everyone knows that Ivy, including H-Y-P, "finds" enough money each year, within its collective tens of billions of dollars of value, to cover most or all of the tuition costs of it athletes in everything from football to squash to rowing to water polo. These are not purely athletic scholarships because the money is available to talented students in many other academic and artistic endeavors as well. Nevertheless Ivy gets more, better athletes with these non-scholarships than it possibly would without them. Its athletic teams (including football) are much more competitive with Ivy's non-scholarships than it would be without them.

- Someone on Alexander Street must have read the LFN blog one day and caught wind of the fact that the Patriot said it was considering football scholarships. One benefit of football scholarships, wrote LFN, was that the Patriot could again play its old rivals at Syracuse, Rutgers, Army, Boston College and Navy. Before being prohibited (for scholarship reasons) by the NCAA from doing so, the Patriot played these teams for years and years, developing of fierce traditional rivalries. Two of them already are full members of the Patriot in all other sports.

- Perhaps phone calls were made, lunches were had, golf was played, and Ivy now knows that Patriot is going to vote for football scholarships albeit by a narrow margin. Ivy understandably wishes not to be perceived by its more casually-interested alumni (who obviously "just don't get it") as being somehow "behind" Patriot in the ability to attract marquis FBS games. Ivy wants to be able to bid against Patriot for the ability to schedule, say, Duke. (We know how that will turn out.) Ivy most decidedly is not going to allow its funding vehicle, whereby all of its football players get to go to college for free, to be labeled a "scholarship" by the NCAA or by anybody else. So Ivy needs to secure and/or purchase an "exemption" from the NCAA, whose rules require its members to fund scholarships in order to schedule games against FBS teams that count for bowl eligibility purposes.

- Patriot does not need to piggyback on Ivy's application if Patriot is going to allow football scholarships at a level that would qualify it for FBS games. As Gater suggests, Patriot scholarship supporters would prefer that Patriot not apply for the exemption because such inaction would indicate scholarships are forthcoming. If Patriot piggybacks on the application, that means that it plans to go forward without scholarships or at a scholarship level that is less than the minimum needed to qualify for FBS games.

- Patriot's inaction also could mean that it is simply not interested in playing FBS games let alone granting scholarships; that Ivy mentioned on the eleventh tee that it is sick and tired of playing the same boring, meaningless Patriot schools year in and year out and that Patriot should just shut up about it; and/or that Patriot does not want to encourage speculation such as this on message boards.

[Cocky]

Just call your aid a scholarship like it is and you can play FBS. I don't understand the logic of a scholarship hurting your academic rep.

[aceinthehole]

Ivy most decidedly is not going to allow its funding vehicle, whereby all of its football players get to go to college for free, to be labeled a "scholarship" by the NCAA or by anybody else. So Ivy needs to secure and/or purchase an "exemption" from the NCAA, whose rules require its members to fund scholarships in order to schedule games against FBS teams that count for bowl eligibility purposes.

I think this nailed it.

However, if the Ivy does get any traction on this exemption, I'd suspect the NEC and PL would follow suit and 'request' eligiblility for FBS games as well.

[WestCoastAggie]

Just call your aid a scholarship like it is and you can play FBS. I don't understand the logic of a scholarship hurting your academic rep.

I don't get it either.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'd suspect the NEC and PL would follow suit and 'request' eligiblility for FBS games

I think Gater called it correctly in saying that Patriot will not seek the exemption regardless of what Ivy does.

[Wildcat80]

Hope NCAA requires either an 11th game or playoff participation to give exemption.

[bonarae]

Hope NCAA requires either an 11th game or playoff participation to give exemption.

That's wishful thinking for us fans... xnonono2x xsmhx

[TheValleyRaider]

Hope NCAA requires either an 11th game or playoff participation to give exemption.

xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx
Not happening

Remember that counter-status isn't related to just scholarships, but any equivalencies offered. Permitting scholarships for the PL won't change anything if schools don't add more money, at least those that aren't at the minimum to count for bowl eligibility (which I'm pretty sure is everyone). If the Ivy does get this exception, which I couldn't say which way that will go, it wouldn't surprise me if the PL joins the NEC in asking for it as well. Or, at that point, just lowering the minimum to be a counter

[Chad4Life]

[QUOTE=Lehigh Football Nation;1554594]Postseason is postseason, and no postseason is "pure".


Of course, that's only "football" postseason. "Basketball" postseason (even with the television money involved) obviously must be slightly more pure, enough so that they can partake. And I guess when no monies are involved, the purity level rises so you can have some of your athletic teams even be called National Champions.

Hypocrisy does abound.

[aceinthehole]

Remember that counter-status isn't related to just scholarships, but any equivalencies offered. Permitting scholarships for the PL won't change anything if schools don't add more money, at least those that aren't at the minimum to count for bowl eligibility (which I'm pretty sure is everyone). If the Ivy does get this exception, which I couldn't say which way that will go, it wouldn't surprise me if the PL joins the NEC in asking for it as well. Or, at that point, just lowering the minimum to be a counter

This is my thought as well. If the Ivy gets the 'exemption' then it would be argued that PL and NEC teams should also be eligible.

Bogus - If the PL allows the required schollys to be a FBS counter, then I agree they have no need to request the exemption. However, if the PL keeps its current funding model (as does the Ivy), why wouldn't the PL ask for some sortr of 'exemption' or 'waiver'? Why would the PL stand by and allow the Ivy to schedule FBS games while the PL stands on the sidelines?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Why would the PL stand by and allow the Ivy to schedule FBS games

They won't. As Gater suggested, the lack of noise on this from Center Valley could mean that the Patriot scholarship vote is in the bag, that Ivy knows it and that Ivy is reacting to the prospect of renewed Patriot rivalries with Syracuse/Rutgers/Boston College/Army. If Patriot is going to get Duke and Northwestern then Ivy wants them too. This all might well have been pre-planned.

[TheValleyRaider]

They won't. As Gater suggested, the lack of noise on this from Center Valley could mean that the Patriot scholarship vote is in the bag, that Ivy knows it and that Ivy is reacting to the prospect of renewed Patriot rivalries with Syracuse/Rutgers/Boston College/Army. If Patriot is going to get Duke and Northwestern then Ivy wants them too. This all might well have been pre-planned.

If that is the case, then the PL must certainly be going full scholarship (which they may almost have to if they want to keep Fordham), and other members will be ramping up their moneys. The PL could be seeing where the Ivy request goes, and if it gets through, then jumping on board with the NEC, arguing that there's no real rationale for the NCAA allowing the Ivies to count, but not anyone else below the minimum

[aceinthehole]

They won't. As Gater suggested, the lack of noise on this from Center Valley could mean that the Patriot scholarship vote is in the bag, that Ivy knows it and that Ivy is reacting to the prospect of renewed Patriot rivalries with Syracuse/Rutgers/Boston College/Army. If Patriot is going to get Duke and Northwestern then Ivy wants them too. This all might well have been pre-planned.

That's a very big COULD hanging out there.

[Syntax Error]

Completely agree!!

+1

[aceinthehole]

If that is the case, then the PL must certainly be going full scholarship (which they may almost have to if they want to keep Fordham), and other members will be ramping up their moneys. The PL could be seeing where the Ivy request goes, and if it gets through, then jumping on board with the NEC, arguing that there's no real rationale for the NCAA allowing the Ivies to count, but not anyone else below the minimum

Again, that's a lot of faith in what "should" or "must" be going on. I don't have any insight on the PL presidents decision making like PL fans, but if the past is any indicator of the future, then I predict them kicking the can down the street for a while more. From this outsider's perspective nothing regarding schollys seems inevitable for the PL.

I think your latter thought is more likely.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Again, that's a lot of faith in what "should" or "must" be going on. I don't have any insight on the PL presidents decision making like PL fans, but if the past is any indicator of the future, then I predict them kicking the can down the street for a while more. From this outsider's perspective nothing regarding schollys seems inevitable for the PL.

I think your latter thought is more likely.

We know this much from public statements - a decision on scholarships will be made by December; that the vote is close; that Lafayette likely will note "no" along with Georgetown and probably Holy Cross but Lafayette but won't hold out like it did in other sports if the league approves; that no one has a feel about how Bucknell's new president will vote; that Fordham, Colgate and Lehigh are "Yes" votes; and that Army and Navy get to vote on this too but no one knows if they'll abstain or how they'll vote.

We also know from reliable sources (not named carney2 or LFN) that Army and Navy would like to include Patriot teams in their scheduling rotation and that Lafayette had to turn down game opportunities with Duke and Rutgers which isn't sitting well. If Army and Navy vote "Yes" it passes easily.

[aceinthehole]

We know this much from public statements - a decision on scholarships will be made by December; that the vote is close; that Lafayette likely will note "no" along with Georgetown and probably Holy Cross but Lafayette but won't hold out like it did in other sports if the league approves; that no one has a feel about how Bucknell's new president will vote; that Fordham, Colgate and Lehigh are "Yes" votes; and that Army and Navy get to vote on this too but no one knows if they'll abstain or how they'll vote.

We also know from reliable sources (not named carney2 or LFN) that Army and Navy would like to include Patriot teams in their scheduling rotation and that Lafayette had to turn down game opportunities with Duke and Rutgers which isn't sitting well. If Army and Navy vote "Yes" it passes easily.

Thanks, that as clear as mud to me. :) But if PL fans are optomistic, then who am I to rain on your parade. We shall see what happens in December. I think the PL season and playoff results may have more impact on the voters than the ability to schedule an FBS game.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I think the PL season and playoff results may have more impact on the voters than the ability to schedule an FBS game.

Actually, it simply comes down to money - nothing more. Scheduling FBS is nice because traditional rivalries can be re-established, but for the small private schools in Patriot it's just money.

But this thread is about Ivy's desire to play FBS games. They have, literally, billions of dollars so it's not money for them. I find it inescapable that Ivy decided to seek this exemption with Patriot having been informed beforehand and having an opportunity to discuss it and to react.

Unless of course they're idiots, which might well be the case.

[rufus]

I assume you are being sarcastic.

I think all FCS teams (including the Ivy, PL, NEC) should be 'bowl counters' and eligible to play FBS teams!

Decent FCS programs, like those from the CAA will never get to play an FBS team again. Why would an FBS team schedule JMU when they could schedule the Morehead State team that JMU beat 48-7 for even less money?

Allowing this type scheduling would simply reward the weak programs that give FCS a bad name. Instead of games like App State @ Michigan, college football fans will be watching Michigan beat Valparaiso 140-0. That will make our subdivision look good!

That type of scheduling is not good for anyone.

If schools from conferences like the CAA can no longer schedule FBS games, you'll see more defections to FBS.

[aceinthehole]

Decent FCS programs, like those from the CAA will never get to play an FBS team again. Why would an FBS team schedule JMU when they could schedule the Morehead State team that JMU beat 48-7 for even less money?

Allowing this type scheduling would simply reward the weak programs that give FCS a bad name. Instead of games like App State @ Michigan, college football fans will be watching Michigan beat Valparaiso 140-0. That will make our subdivision look good!

That type of scheduling is not good for anyone.

If schools from conferences like the CAA can no longer schedule FBS games, you'll see more defections to FBS.

BS - The number of schollys moot point.

If Delaware State can can get an FBS game, why shouldn't CCSU?
If Maine can get a FBS game, why shouldn't Albany?
If Liberty can get an FBS game, why shouldn't Robert Morris?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Decent FCS programs, like those from the CAA will never get to play an FBS team again.

That type of scheduling is not good for anyone.



So you're saying there's no way Harvard ever should be playing Duke or Northwestern or Stanford. Only decent programs such as James Madison should be allowed to play those games.

Worth considering, I suppose.

[rufus]

So you're saying there's no way Harvard ever should be playing Duke or Northwestern or Stanford. Only decent programs such as James Madison should be allowed to play those games.

Worth considering, I suppose.

Well no, I didn't say that. The Ivy League and Patriot League schools are only nominally non-scholarship. They still give plenty of financial assistance. Pioneer Leage is a different beast entirely.

[aceinthehole]

Well no, I didn't say that. The Ivy League and Patriot League schools are only nominally non-scholarship. They still give plenty of financial assistance. Pioneer Leage is a different beast entirely.

How about the NEC?

[rufus]

How about the NEC?

They fall somewhere in the middle. I just think that letting letting FBS teams schedule the teams at the bottom of FCS financially harms the FCS teams that invest the most in their programs. No FBS team will schedule a CAA/SoCon team until all of the non-scholarship or low-scholarship programs are already taken.

I can see Pioneer teams scheduling multiple FBS games a year for the revenue. Without any real playoff chance, why not?

I can also envision the creation of non-scholarship programs, which are essentially no-budget club programs, starting up at some schools strictly for the purpose of collecting FBS checks. Those teams could play 11 FBS games per year.

[aceinthehole]

They fall somewhere in the middle. I just think that letting letting FBS teams schedule the teams at the bottom of FCS financially harms the FCS teams that invest the most in their programs. No FBS team will schedule a CAA/SoCon team until all of the non-scholarship or low-scholarship programs are already taken.

I can see Pioneer teams scheduling multiple FBS games a year for the revenue. Without any real playoff chance, why not?

I can also envision the creation of non-scholarship programs, which are essentially no-budget club programs, starting up at some schools strictly for the purpose of collecting FBS checks. Those teams could play 11 FBS games per year.

You know that's not happening.

Yes, JMU might lose out on games vs teams like Duke, Vanderbilt, Army, because they rather play Ivy/PL teams. Pioneer teams are NOT taking any FBS games, they don't even play many FCS teams.

NEC teams would be getting the same games that currently go to MEAC, OVC, and BS teams. In 90% of the cases, teams like Texas A&M aren't going to scheule CCSU and snub JMU just because they think they might lose to you.

[rufus]

In 90% of the cases, teams like Texas A&M aren't going to scheule CCSU and snub JMU just because they think they might lose to you.

Perhaps, but they might schedule a CCSU team that will play for less money. Scheduling an NEC team could reduce both expenses and chances of a loss.

[rufus]

And yes, I could envision non-scholarship programs acting in bad faith and scheduling multiple FBS games per year.

[aceinthehole]

Perhaps, but they might schedule a CCSU team that will play for less money. Scheduling an NEC team could reduce both expenses and chances of a loss.

Possibly. BTW - how much are you guys paying us for the stadium-opener next season? ;)

[rufus]

Possibly. BTW - how much are you guys paying us for the stadium-opener next season? ;)

I can only continue to hope that we don't schedule CCSU for our stadium-opener. I would much rather schedule a team like VMI, Hampton, or even Norfolk State. It's not that those programs are better than CCSU, but I want there to at least be some name recognition for the opening of our renovated stadium.

If it is CCSU, JMU will probably pay $80-100k. I think we paid Morehead State $80k this year.

[aceinthehole]

I can only continue to hope that we don't schedule CCSU for our stadium-opener. I would much rather schedule a team like VMI, Hampton, or even Norfolk State. It's not that those programs are better than CCSU, but I want there to at least be some name recognition for the opening of our renovated stadium.

If it is CCSU, JMU will probably pay $80-100k. I think we paid Morehead State $80k this year.

I don't want to dissapoint you, but I think that contract has been signed, sealed and delivered. I get that you want an in-state team to open it up and help attendence, but if JMU fans don't come out let's not blame the opponent.

I figured that's the amount.

[Go...gate]

This could be the most prescient view, Gater. It presupposes that Center Valley actually is paying attention that there is actually an evil genius to the scheme. It could mean:





- Patriot is going to allow football scholarships in one fashion or another. It already permits, in one degree or another, scholarships in basketball, lacrosse, field hockey, wrestling, etc. The Patriot as a whole can no longer call itself a non-scholarship conference because of the decision to allow these other scholarships; it is highly competitive on a national level in many of these sports.

- Ivy maintains that it allows no scholarships in any sport. It is also highly competitive at a national level in many of these other sports. Continued recognition of Ivy's wholly non-scholarship status is critically important to certain interests within its members' walls. So much so that when Cornell recently chose to give public recognition to its de facto loan-to-grant conversion process it was chastised firmly the boss, by H-Y-P.

- Pretty much everyone knows that Ivy, including H-Y-P, "finds" enough money each year, within its collective tens of billions of dollars of value, to cover most or all of the tuition costs of it athletes in everything from football to squash to rowing to water polo. These are not purely athletic scholarships because the money is available to talented students in many other academic and artistic endeavors as well. Nevertheless Ivy gets more, better athletes with these non-scholarships than it possibly would without them. Its athletic teams (including football) are much more competitive with Ivy's non-scholarships than it would be without them.

- Someone on Alexander Street must have read the LFN blog one day and caught wind of the fact that the Patriot said it was considering football scholarships. One benefit of football scholarships, wrote LFN, was that the Patriot could again play its old rivals at Syracuse, Rutgers, Army, Boston College and Navy. Before being prohibited (for scholarship reasons) by the NCAA from doing so, the Patriot played these teams for years and years, developing of fierce traditional rivalries. Two of them already are full members of the Patriot in all other sports.

- Perhaps phone calls were made, lunches were had, golf was played, and Ivy now knows that Patriot is going to vote for football scholarships albeit by a narrow margin. Ivy understandably wishes not to be perceived by its more casually-interested alumni (who obviously "just don't get it") as being somehow "behind" Patriot in the ability to attract marquis FBS games. Ivy wants to be able to bid against Patriot for the ability to schedule, say, Duke. (We know how that will turn out.) Ivy most decidedly is not going to allow its funding vehicle, whereby all of its football players get to go to college for free, to be labeled a "scholarship" by the NCAA or by anybody else. So Ivy needs to secure and/or purchase an "exemption" from the NCAA, whose rules require its members to fund scholarships in order to schedule games against FBS teams that count for bowl eligibility purposes.

- Patriot does not need to piggyback on Ivy's application if Patriot is going to allow football scholarships at a level that would qualify it for FBS games. As Gater suggests, Patriot scholarship supporters would prefer that Patriot not apply for the exemption because such inaction would indicate scholarships are forthcoming. If Patriot piggybacks on the application, that means that it plans to go forward without scholarships or at a scholarship level that is less than the minimum needed to qualify for FBS games.

- Patriot's inaction also could mean that it is simply not interested in playing FBS games let alone granting scholarships; that Ivy mentioned on the eleventh tee that it is sick and tired of playing the same boring, meaningless Patriot schools year in and year out and that Patriot should just shut up about it; and/or that Patriot does not want to encourage speculation such as this on message boards.

Well said.

[Go...gate]

Actually, it simply comes down to money - nothing more. Scheduling FBS is nice because traditional rivalries can be re-established, but for the small private schools in Patriot it's just money.

But this thread is about Ivy's desire to play FBS games. They have, literally, billions of dollars so it's not money for them. I find it inescapable that Ivy decided to seek this exemption with Patriot having been informed beforehand and having an opportunity to discuss it and to react.
Unless of course they're idiots, which might well be the case.

Yes. There probably, at least based on history, is closer relationship between Alexander Road and Center Valley than we realize.

[Go...gate]

How about the NEC?

Seems to me that the NEC wants to trend further upward, but they will stay where they are (40 scholarship) for a few years to get all the schools up to speed - especially given their recent expansion.

[DFW HOYA]

If that is the case, then the PL must certainly be going full scholarship (which they may almost have to if they want to keep Fordham), and other members will be ramping up their moneys.

Well, some other members...

But if three of the six are voting for no as has been suggested, why would they then all acquiesce to 60 scholarships?

[Go...gate]

Well, some other members...

But if three of the six are voting for no as has been suggested, why would they then all acquiesce to 60 scholarships?

In the end, it may be easier for the full members than searching for a new conference.

[DFW HOYA]

In the end, it may be easier for the full members than searching for a new conference.

The irony would be thick if the PL approved Fordham's 60-or-else scholarship demand and move to cut ties with Georgetown, only to see the Rams leave in a few years anyway, leaving the PL below the minimum for an autobid.

[Gater]

What would you rather have, the autobid and the chance to play in the playoffs or no autobid and scholarships and the chance to win in the playoffs? Football has changed in the northeast. The Ivy League gives free tuition to any football play whose parents don't make a ton of money--that's the same as getting a scholarship to play football. If their parents do make a ton of money, the parents know how important getting an Ivy League education is so they end of going there. The NEC has scholarships. The Patriot League is holding onto an outdated model. Other schools have taken advantage of every opportunity afforded them while The Patriot League is letting all of these schools pass them by. The Patriot League hasn't won a playoff game since 2003. If The Patriot League stays the course do you think it will get better or do you think it will get worse?

[Franks Tanks]

What would you rather have, the autobid and the chance to play in the playoffs or no autobid and scholarships and the chance to win in the playoffs? Football has changed in the northeast. The Ivy League gives free tuition to any football play whose parents don't make a ton of money--that's the same as getting a scholarship to play football. If their parents do make a ton of money, the parents know how important getting an Ivy League education is so they end of going there. The NEC has scholarships. The Patriot League is holding onto an outdated model. Other schools have taken advantage of every opportunity afforded them while The Patriot League is letting all of these schools pass them by. The Patriot League hasn't won a playoff game since 2003. If The Patriot League stays the course do you think it will get better or do you think it will get worse?

The PL needs FB scholarships to maintain the league IMO. Therefore the PL will reluctantly approve FB scholarships. Calm down Colgate guys it will happen.

[TheValleyRaider]

Again, that's a lot of faith in what "should" or "must" be going on. I don't have any insight on the PL presidents decision making like PL fans, but if the past is any indicator of the future, then I predict them kicking the can down the street for a while more. From this outsider's perspective nothing regarding schollys seems inevitable for the PL.

I think your latter thought is more likely.


Well, some other members...

But if three of the six are voting for no as has been suggested, why would they then all acquiesce to 60 scholarships?

I'm not saying that the League will suddenly mandate 60 scholarships or the max. Beyond simply the acceptance/rejection of scholarships has been the question of how many to allow. If the Patriot League is serious about getting FBS opponents (and I know Colgate has had talks with TCU recently in addition to our scheduled game at Air Force), then they won't be able to set a ceiling like the NEC's 40 limit (or thereabouts). Certainly, the individual schools will make their own decisions, but will have the option to go as high as they want. Plus it might be the only way to keep Fordham, since they're already set on 63, it seems.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'm pretty sure it will be all or nothing for Patriot. But to speculate, what exactly might be the wording of the Ivy exemption? Just to say it's "different" for Ivy; i.e., given the "history" and "stability" of the Ivy franchise they can play Rice and Vanderbilt but no one else can? To define in a facially objective fashion a category of exempt schools without mentioning names, but where the definition is tailored to describe only Ivy schools?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/09/friday-water-cooler-ivy-league.html

I finally did get to this rank hypocrisy by Yale.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I finally did get to this rank hypocrisy by Yale.


Somehow I knew that this was going to be too much to resist for you.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Somehow I knew that this was going to be too much to resist for you.

It was Yale's fault! I swear! xlolx

[bulldog10jw]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/09/friday-water-cooler-ivy-league.html

I finally did get to this rank hypocrisy by Yale.

What's the difference between "rank" hypocrisy and regular hypocrisy?

I always wondered. xeyebrowx

[Pard4Life]

If the exemption is granted and the Ivies keep their ten game schedule, that is one less game for some Patriot teams. Which means more games against bottom feeder NEC teams or getting whooped by CAA teams. Scholarships could not be any more clear.

The Patriot was created so the principled can have more than seven games to play. They just betrayed their ideals. They want the money.

We just might have to thank Yale in December.

[Bogus Megapardus]

What's the difference between "rank" hypocrisy and regular hypocrisy?



The odor?

[Pard4Life]

The odor?

Obviously Bogus, obviously. Odor as in odious... somebody took bulldog's SATs for him...

[bulldog10jw]

Well, I knew one of the meanings of "rank" meant a foul odor, just don't see how hypocrisies can have an odor.

How about if it's the "General" of hypocrisies, you know, the top "rank". :D

[Pard4Life]

Hmm, all right.. that flies.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Well, I knew one of the meanings of "rank" meant a foul odor, just don't see how hypocrisies can have an odor.

How about if it's the "General" of hypocrisies, you know, the top "rank". :D

I was just trying to make a funny, that's all.

I suppose hypocrisies cannot be rank, but hypocrites can. And you can't really have one with the other, can you?

[ngineer]

I was just trying to make a funny, that's all.

I suppose hypocrisies cannot be rank, but hypocrites can. And you can't really have one with the other, can you?

Hypocrites who don't shower will be rank, but I would also think certain hypocricies stink more than others.