Last Time a FBS school dropped down to FCS?

[Sec310]

When was the last time a FBS school dropped down to FCS?

Will Idaho and San Jose St. become the next to drop down?

[lionsrking2]

When was the last time a FBS school dropped down to FCS?

Will Idaho and San Jose St. become the next to drop down?

UL-Monroe and UL-Lafayette should be the next to drop down, but they're way too proud to do it.

[bostonspider]

I think Richmond in 1984 might have been the last team to drop down from I-A to I-AA. The Spiders fought the good fight for 5 years after I-AA was founded, but then were forced down by their stadium and the NCAA.

[TexasTerror]

UL-Monroe and UL-Lafayette should be the next to drop down, but they're way too proud to do it.

It would not surprise me in the least bit if UL-Monroe ends up back in the Southland. If the league were to lose TXST or UTSA or any of the Louisiana schools who could potentially go Div II or Div III because of the financial crisis in the state - ULM would be accepted before they signed off on the drop down!

ULL has a bit more $$$ to play with than ULM and a much bigger fan base. If Marlin can turn them around ASAP and baseball continues to succeed, they'll get the $$$ to stabilize a bit more...

[PaladinFan]

UL-Monroe and UL-Lafayette should be the next to drop down, but they're way too proud to do it.

I think it is a pride thing with a lot of teams. There's no shame in being a school that does not have TV contracts, millions in donor money, a 90k seat stadium. Go down and play with schools your size, in your area, with similar fan bases and alumni.

San Jose doesn't even have a full compliment of FBS scholarship players. They are currently an FCS school playing an FBS schedule.

I've been crying this for years. They need to drop the WAC, MAC, and SunBelt to FCS en masse. They have no business playing FBS football. Case in point, look at the numbers UL-Lafayette put up against UGA, then what they did against Arkansas State.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think the official answer is the entire Ivy League in 1983ish, and that was done on principle.

[henfan]

Reclassification was forced upon 39 schools by the NCAA in Feb. 1982 in response to those schools either not meeting or not providing info to show that they met minimum membership criteria (17,000 per game attendance and minimum arena capacity of 30,000). Yale met all of the criteria but willingly reclassified anyway to stay with their Ivy partners.

[GA St. MBB Fan]

So has any school voluntarily dropped down from FBS to FCS?

[UAalum72]

I think Drake was I-A in the Missouri Valley thru 1985, dropped football for 1986, and reinstituted it as non-scholarship (D-III) in 1987, reclassifying as I-AA in 1993.

[URMite]

I think Richmond in 1984 might have been the last team to drop down from I-A to I-AA. The Spiders fought the good fight for 5 years after I-AA was founded, but then were forced down by their stadium and the NCAA.

I'm pretty sure we were part of 1982 migration even if our schedule didn't show it right away (the '82 schedule included 8 FBS, '83 6 FBS). I should know since I was attending the '82-'85 seasons, but it has been a while...and memory fades with old age.

[FCS Go!]

IIRC Florida A & M began to transition to FBS about 4 years ago but then cancelled their move up. Not sure if that qualifies.

[FormerPokeCenter]

So has any school voluntarily dropped down from FBS to FCS?

In the 1982 Reclassification, when schools either had to have a stadium that met Division Ia requirements or minimum average attendance of, I believe 15k, there were two teams in our conference, McNeese and The University of Southwest Louisiana (now legally known as the University of Louisiana @ Lafayette) who could stay 1a, if they so chose.

USL had the stadium capacity thing going for it, while McNeese had the stadium capacity AND attendance. We chose to drop down with the rest of the Southland Conference, while USL went the 1a Rent-a-win route.


Villanova, I think was 1a, before disbanding their program, then reconsituting it a few years back as an FCS team.

[Belleair Boy]

Villanova, I think was 1a, before disbanding their program, then reconsituting it a few years back as an FCS team.

Nova disbanded its 1A program at the end of 1980 and returned as 1aa in 1985.

[URMite]

Nova disbanded its 1A program at the end of 1980 and returned as 1aa in 1985.

Actually I thought they returned as DIII in '85 & '86 before I-AA in '87 (and playoff participant in '89).

Interesting story considering the recent Big East talk...

[FormerPokeCenter]

Nova disbanded its 1A program at the end of 1980 and returned as 1aa in 1985.

I remember that Lousiana Tech picked up a couple of players from Nova when I was at McNeese, but I thought it was like 82 or 83 when they disbanded? Oh well, I've slept since then...

[PhoenixSupreme]

Actually I thought they returned as DIII in '85 & '86 before I-AA in '87 (and playoff participant in '89).

Interesting story considering the recent Big East talk...

According to the College Football Data Warehouse site, you are correct concerning Villanova's division movements

[100%GRIZ]

Reclassification was forced upon 39 schools by the NCAA in Feb. 1982 in response to those schools either not meeting or not providing info to show that they met minimum membership criteria (17,000 per game attendance and minimum arena capacity of 30,000). Yale met all of the criteria but willingly reclassified anyway to stay with their Ivy partners.

I guess Idaho will have to drop down since their dome has only 17,000 or 18,000 total capacity! Wonder how long it will take the NCAA to enforce the rules?

[youwouldno]

The way the economy and state budgets are going, you would think problems could arise at a large number of programs. The super conferences are so rich that individual members are basically protected from hardship by TV revenue, but that's what, 50% of FBS? Probably a bit less (too lazy to count).

Of course, NCAA policy is concerned only with profits and, thus, the big-time programs. Mid-major FBS and FCS are really just collateral in the decision making. So if you're looking to what changes could take place, the real question is what kinds of changes would the BCS programs like?

For instance, the BCS schools could decide that there are actually too few FBS programs, and that more mid-major FBS would diffuse resources among the mid-majors and make it harder for them to challenge the big boys. They probably wouldn't do anything to force down many current FBS programs, though the economy might pressure the NCAA to loosen the requirements to prevent it from happening naturally.

[henfan]

Again, Yale is a team that voluntarily moved from I-A to I-AA.

[UAalum72]

Again, Yale is a team that voluntarily moved from I-A to I-AA.

But they probably did it to keep the Ivy League together. Harvard, Penn, and Princeton also had big enough stadiums and probably attendance, but Brown, Dartmouth, Columbia and Cornell didn't. The Ivy teams are more closely intertwined than those from other conferences.

[Sader87]

I think the criteria has changed (stadium: 30,000/avg. att 17,000) since 1982...there are many MAC and Sun Belt schools that wouldn't meet the 17,000 average attendance today.

[GA St. MBB Fan]

Reclassification was forced upon 39 schools by the NCAA in Feb. 1982 in response to those schools either not meeting or not providing info to show that they met minimum membership criteria (17,000 per game attendance and minimum arena capacity of 30,000). Yale met all of the criteria but willingly reclassified anyway to stay with their Ivy partners.


Again, Yale is a team that voluntarily moved from I-A to I-AA.

Right henfan, I guess I was really asking is there a school that voluntarily moved from I-A to I-AA for reasons that weren't related to the NCAA. It seems that in the Yale situation they had to make a decision to move down because the NCAA forced down the other Ivies.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Right henfan, I guess I was really asking is there a school that voluntarily moved from I-A to I-AA for reasons that weren't related to the NCAA. It seems that in the Yale situation they had to make a decision to move down because the NCAA forced down the other Ivies.

I think characterizing it as the NCAA "forced" down the Ivies might be a little too strongly worded. I think of the reclassification as largely voluntary by all the Ivy teams because they all shared a lot more together than apart, especially in football. Yale and Harvard, certainly, could have survived as FBS independents, but they enjoyed the IL and wanted to stay there.

[DFW HOYA]

Right henfan, I guess I was really asking is there a school that voluntarily moved from I-A to I-AA for reasons that weren't related to the NCAA. It seems that in the Yale situation they had to make a decision to move down because the NCAA forced down the other Ivies.

Villanova: dropped I-A in 1981, joined I-AA in 1985. Not NCAA related, either.

[superman7515]

Villanova: dropped I-A in 1981, joined I-AA in 1985. Not NCAA related, either.

They were D3 in 85 & 86. Then came up to 1AA. They didn't go from 1A to 1AA.

[Sader87]

Interestingly, Nova went out on a "semi-high" note in 1980...went 6-5 with some nice wins over BC, Cincy, Temple etc. Howie Long was on that squad.

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/atlantic10/villanova/yearly_results.php?year=1980

[RookieWill]

Nova eliminated football entirely after the 1980 season. There were no plans to bring it back - the dropping of Villanova football was done in a very shady way (the supporters of football on the Board of Trustees were blindsided by the vote and the vote was planned when some of them weren't even going to be at the meeting). The backlash was strong and Villanova brought back football in 1985 with the goal to be I-AA and play in the Yankee conference. During that transition, they played a D-III schedule (I remember a sold out Villanova game against Navy's JV back then).

Interestingly, Villanova had a couple of football recruits who just decided to go to Villanova and not play college football in 1981. When the decision was made to bring back football, I think 2 or 3 stuck around and played as a fifth year for Talley's first team.

But to be clear, Villanova did NOT drop from FBS to FCS. They dropped football, with no intention of returning. They then went from no football to I-AA (and now potentially to BCS)

[catbob]

The bottom quarter or so of FBS should drop down to FCS, and FCS should also split: those who play with a full regiment of scholarships, and those who don't. You could have some pretty darn good football at the FCS-S(cholarship) level (oh man that could get confusing).

[GeauxLions94]

I think the criteria has changed (stadium: 30,000/avg. att 17,000) since 1982...there are many MAC and Sun Belt schools that wouldn't meet the 17,000 average attendance today.

Used to be 30,000 stadium and 15,000 attendance, but the stadium part has been scrapped to my knowledge

[aztecjim]

Didn't the MAC also drop to I-AA for about five minutes? I remember there being a rule about conferences that qualified at least half of its members could move back up as a group and I think the MAC did.

[JohnStOnge]

So has any school voluntarily dropped down from FBS to FCS?

Sounds like several did. I know that when a lot of schools were forced to go from I-A to I-AA two schools in the then-I-A Southland Conference had the option of staying I-A. The University of Southwestern Louisiana, now Louisiana-Lafayette, opted to stay I-A while McNeese State opted to move to I-AA and stay with the rest of the conference.

[DFW HOYA]

They were D3 in 85 & 86. Then came up to 1AA. They didn't go from 1A to 1AA.

Howver, Villanova was never formally classified within Division III despite games playing below I-AA. As a transitioning member in 1986 they were not subject to a 50% requirement aganst Div. I teams.

Here is the 1986 schedule. (Strange that they still didn't play Georgetown...)

Iona
Mercyhurst
Buffalo
Fordham
Catholic
Ursinus
Columbia
Central Connecticut St.
Widener

1987:
Liberty
Mercyhurst (III)
Boston U
Central Connecticut St.
Catholic (III)
Northeastern
Connecticut
Massachusetts
Richmond
Holy Cross

Hmm: Boston U, Northeastern, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Richmond, Holy Cross...sounds like a pretty good football league...

[Sader87]

Howver, Villanova was never formally classified within Division III despite games playing below I-AA. As a transitioning member in 1986 they were not subject to a 50% requirement aganst Div. I teams.

Here is the 1986 schedule. (Strange that they still didn't play Georgetown...)

Iona
Mercyhurst
Buffalo
Fordham
Catholic
Ursinus
Columbia
Central Connecticut St.
Widener

1987:
Liberty
Mercyhurst (III)
Boston U
Central Connecticut St.
Catholic (III)
Northeastern
Connecticut
Massachusetts
Richmond
Holy Cross

Hmm: Boston U, Northeastern, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Richmond, Holy Cross...sounds like a pretty good football league...

Throw out Richmond and add UNH, URI, Maine and UVM and that's your Yankee Conference in 1971...HC's one and only year as a member.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Didn't the MAC also drop to I-AA for about five minutes? I remember there being a rule about conferences that qualified at least half of its members could move back up as a group and I think the MAC did.

There was a big food fight about the MAC and its I-A membership in the early 1980s, when they were even considering expelling members if they didn't meet the criteria. The leadership twisted enough arms and delayed the NCAA long enough, however, that they never were an I-AA conference when the Ivy League voluntarily stepped down.

They also nabbed Akron from the Missouri Valley (or was it the OVC?) in 1986. Akron I believe was the first of many I-AA schools to go the other way, from I-AA to I-A.

[aceinthehole]

NO TEAM has DIRECTLY reclassified from I-A (FBS) to I-AA (FCS) in more than 25 years (since 1982).

Since the entire I-A/I-AA classification was just 4 seasons old at that time, the NCAA's requirements certainly had some influence on the decision for teams and conference to reclassify during the era.

I can't foresee any team reclassifying from FBS to FCS unless the NCAA exerts some influence that allows teams/conferences to move without the public stigma associated with 'dropping down' in classification.

[rufus]

There's also very little financial incentive to to move from FBS to FCS. I know that JMU, for example, spends more on football than 15 FBS schools, and is very close to about 10-15 more. Boise State spends about $450k a year more on football than JMU.

These figures don't even consider capital expenditures on facilities. JMU is spending more to build an endzone facility and replace half of its stadium than UCF or Akron did to build new stadiums entirely.

You just aren't going to see a migration from FBS to FCS, as long as there is financial incentive to remain FBS. The difference in expenses between top FCS programs and lower-tier FBS programs isn't that significant, but the gap in potential upside is huge. Sure most lower-tier schools haven't been as fortunate as Boise State, but they have a shot as long as they stay in FBS. There's no real financial incentive to move to FCS, so there's no need to do it unless they miss the playoff system.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There's also very little financial incentive to to move from FBS to FCS. I know that JMU, for example, spends more on football than 15 FBS schools, and is very close to about 10-15 more. Boise State spends about $450k a year more on football than JMU.

These figures don't even consider capital expenditures on facilities. JMU is spending more to build an endzone facility and replace half of its stadium than UCF or Akron did to build new stadiums entirely.

You just aren't going to see a migration from FBS to FCS, as long as there is financial incentive to remain FBS. The difference in expenses between top FCS programs and lower-tier FBS programs isn't that significant, but the gap in potential upside is huge. Sure most lower-tier schools haven't been as fortunate as Boise State, but they have a shot as long as they stay in FBS. There's no real financial incentive to move to FCS, so there's no need to do it unless they miss the playoff system.

As long as there's no NCAA stick to punish the FBSINO's, sure. But you wonder if the NCAA will be looking at this more closely.

[Mr. C]

Let me set some stuff straight for folks. I was covering the Big West Conference in those days (yes, for you newbies, the Big West used to sponsor Division I football) and they were one of the leagues involved in the reclassification stuff. First off, you had to have either 30,000 seats in your stadium, or you had to average 17,000 fans (it wasn't 15,000 as some in this thread have stated). And for various conferences, it was looked at on a conference-by-conference basis. For example, the Mid-American and Big West Conferences didn't have all of their members qualifying with either criteria, but because half of their conference met the criteria, the leagues were allowed to stay at Division I-A. Schools like Eastern Michigan were brought along for the ride, with their fellow conference mates. There actually were NCAA personnel coming on campus to count the number of seats and certain criteria about big each seat had to be in the case of these stadiums that just had cement seating all around. In the case of the Southern Conference, it could have stayed at I-A, but it chose to drop down. The Ivy League fought a long fight, feeling like it deserved to be considered big-time, but ultimately lost that battle. Schools like a Yale, or a McNeese State (which actually was playing in bowl games in the years before the split) could have stayed I-A, but chose to stay with their leagues that didn't qualify. It was an interesting time. I don't know why the NCAA got away from following the eligibility rules for 17,000 attendance, but gradually over the years, it just didn't seem to want to rock any boats. Much of the whole reclassification thing started when the CFA decided to sue the NCAA over the right to come up with its own TV package. Ironically, that battle came about when the NCAA wouldn't let Georgia and Oklahoma play on TV and showed a game between Appalachian State and The Citadel instead.

[henfan]

There's also very little financial incentive to to move from FBS to FCS.

Well thought-out post. Much of what you write is indeed correct.

I'm not certain if the above quote accurately suits every case, however. If they were being honest with themselves, some current FBS program would likely fair better competitively and financially in the FCS. Institutional egos intervene to prevent that from being a consideration.

Your comment also isn't true for a few FCS programs who make money on FB but who would most certainly struggle financially with low level (i.e.- not major conference) FBS FB. It's not a one size fits all situation.

[rufus]

It's true that many MAC/WAC/Sun Belt programs could drop to FCS and save money, if they were willing to play true cost-containment football. If they truly want to be competitive in FCS, they would probably have to spend essentially the same amount they are already spending. Take a look at the football budgets of the last five national champions:

Delaware $5.2M
Richmond $5.2M
JMU $4.9M
Villanova $4.7M
App State $3.3M

App State is way on the low end, which is very impressive, but even they spend more than some Sun Belt programs. If ULL/ULM/(name your MAC or Sun Belt team) decides to drop to FCS, they're basically going to need to maintain current funding levels to be competitive. In doing so, they will also lose TV revenue, minimal bowl revenue, and possibly ticket revenue. So revenues fall and expenses stay the same. Like I said, there's just not a lot of incentive.

[Twentysix]

So has any school voluntarily dropped down from FBS to FCS?

The dude above you just said Yale did.

Yale met all of the criteria but willingly reclassified anyway to stay with their Ivy partners.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

...revenues fall and expenses stay the same. Like I said, there's just not a lot of incentive.

No, expenses fall too. Their 84 full scholarships become 63 equivalencies. That's $630,000 of scholarship money annually. If you then drop the need for a Title IX match, that becomes $1.26 million. Annually.

Is the TV revenue and bowl revenue in, say, the current WAC worth that much? I bet not.

In addition, I know for a fact the Sun Belch schools pay the league for the privilege of buying a bowl to participate in. I don't know if the WAC or MAC does the same thing, but it wouldn't surprise me. Life in a non-BCS league means a lot more expenses than you think.

For the WAC, their cash cow was Boise State. Their forced BCS invite and BCS success caused money to pour into the WAC offices, and redistributed to its member schools. With that now gone, the revenues are gone, too. Generally speaking, though, "bowl revenues" in the eyes of non-BCS FBS programs tend to be mythological for the most part.

That's why it's dangerous to generalize.

[yosef1969]

No, expenses fall too. Their 84 full scholarships become 63 equivalencies. That's $630,000 of scholarship money annually. If you then drop the need for a Title IX match, that becomes $1.26 million. Annually.

Is the TV revenue and bowl revenue in, say, the current WAC worth that much? I bet not.

In addition, I know for a fact the Sun Belch schools pay the league for the privilege of buying a bowl to participate in. I don't know if the WAC or MAC does the same thing, but it wouldn't surprise me. Life in a non-BCS league means a lot more expenses than you think.

For the WAC, their cash cow was Boise State. Their forced BCS invite and BCS success caused money to pour into the WAC offices, and redistributed to its member schools. With that now gone, the revenues are gone, too. Generally speaking, though, "bowl revenues" in the eyes of non-BCS FBS programs tend to be mythological for the most part.

That's why it's dangerous to generalize.

I don't know what type of TV revenue the WAC brings in but the Mountain West brings in more that $1.2 for each member school. The bowl revenues are typically only about $130K. There are other factors such as basketball to consider, most (not all) FCS conferences are a one team bid for the NCAA tourney which equates to a loss of approximately $200K if they are moving from a two bid league. Also corporate sponsorship for the typical FCS is approximately 50% of the standard non-BCS FBS program.

That are so many factors that must be taken into account, it's just not an easy solution either way. I'd say for most FBS programs it just isn't beneficial enough to move to FCS.

Here's a good study done by U of Wyoming in 2009 that takes a look at moving to FCS: http://uwadmnweb.uwyo.edu/accreditation/Resources/B/03_Athletics_div_1A_response.pdf

[JMUNJ08]

I don't know what type of TV revenue the WAC brings in but the Mountain West brings in more that $1.2 for each member school. The bowl revenues are typically only about $130K. There are other factors such as basketball to consider, most (not all) FCS conferences are a one team bid for the NCAA tourney which equates to a loss of approximately $200K if they are moving from a two bid league. Also corporate sponsorship for the typical FCS is approximately 50% of the standard non-BCS FBS program.

That are so many factors that must be taken into account, it's just not an easy solution either way. I'd say for most FBS programs it just isn't beneficial enough to move to FCS.

Here's a good study done by U of Wyoming in 2009 that takes a look at moving to FCS: http://uwadmnweb.uwyo.edu/accreditation/Resources/B/03_Athletics_div_1A_response.pdf

Got through a little of the Wyoming study but I noticed one thing that wouldn't effect current WAC members - Conference affiliation. The MWC has more bowls, TV, and better rivalry teams. The WAC has none of those. They lose most of their money when Boise/Fresno/Nevada do leave so the additional FBS revenue and multiple bball tourney teams won't be a difference with dropping to FCS. But thanks for the study!

[yosef1969]

Got through a little of the Wyoming study but I noticed one thing that wouldn't effect current WAC members - Conference affiliation. The MWC has more bowls, TV, and better rivalry teams. The WAC has none of those. They lose most of their money when Boise/Fresno/Nevada do leave so the additional FBS revenue and multiple bball tourney teams won't be a difference with dropping to FCS. But thanks for the study!

No doubt the WAC is in flux right now and may not survive. Clearly they are not anywhere close to as good of a position as the MWC. However for the time being they still have the ESPN contract, 5 bowl tie-ins and last year the multiple NCAA bids came from New Mexico State and Utah St so it's not actually that they have none of those, just less. The WAC has been on the ropes before, don't think we should count them out quite yet.
Just trying to point out that it's not a no brainer for all of the non-BCS league members to drop to FCS, even a program like UW. MWC, C-USA and MAC all have TV contracts. The MAC's deal with ESPN is the least by far but was just extended through 2017. The SBC and MAC are in the toughest positions along with the WAC, pending what happens in the next 2-3 years. Financials are a big part of the equation, but pride and notoriety (real or perceived) are huge considerations also. Essentially what it all boils down to is that these lower level FBS programs have determined up until now anyway, that the costs of playing at the FBS level is beneficial to their institutions.

[Jackman]

First off, you had to have either 30,000 seats in your stadium, or you had to average 17,000 fans (it wasn't 15,000 as some in this thread have stated).

For clarification, 17,000-in-30,000 was the old rule, and 15,000 is the new rule. The rule change happened sometime around 2002-2003.

[henfan]

The minor league fbs (lower case intended) schools managed to get even the pitiful 15K avg. attendance requirement gutted so that attendance numbers are no longer audited by independent firms / the NCAA. Schools are permitted to self-report attendance, so no school is ever going to fall far enough below the threshold to have their membership threatened. Additionally, the NCAA also allows neutral site games to count towards home attendance. Again, the 15K attendance requirement means nothing, especially to schools who are already classified as FBS. It's a complete joke.

It's telling, I think, that the minor fbs conferences fought so hard against the proposal that would have seen the complete elimination of Division I football nomenclature early in the last decade. Despite the reality that many of their programs are on equal footing with FCS programs in terms of competitiveness and financing, they couldn't bear the thought of being in the same classification with FCS programs. It's pretty obvious why. A lot of money is being wasted and a lot of people are in jobs at low level fbs schools because of FB. If FCS programs were suddenly on the same level being just as competitive with less scholarships, suddenly there would be a cry at fbs schools for common sense cost containment.

[henfan]

It's true that many MAC/WAC/Sun Belt programs could drop to FCS and save money, if they were willing to play true cost-containment football. If they truly want to be competitive in FCS, they would probably have to spend essentially the same amount they are already spending...In doing so, they will also lose TV revenue, minimal bowl revenue, and possibly ticket revenue. So revenues fall and expenses stay the same. Like I said, there's just not a lot of incentive.

But you're evaluating FB expenses only, not total AD expenses that result from FBS participation. Those additional 22 scholarships are matched by 22 Title IX equivalancies and a whole lot of sporting programs that are necessary artifacts of FBS FB participation.

Not a lot of bowl or TV revenue is filtering down to MAC, WAC or Sun Belt programs from the conferences. They all lose money on bowl appearances. No one could possibly project the impact on ticket revenue that a reclassification would have. Perhaps actually getting to compete for an NCAA national championship would have a positive effect on some programs?

Most of those schools continue to play at the FBS level because they buy into the perception that they are cast in the same shadow as the SEC, Big 10 and Big 12. Whatever.

[NoCoDanny]

West Texas State, now West Texas A&M was in the Missouri Valley from 1972-1985 and they played what we now call FBS and moved to Division II.