Fordham question...

[TxSt02]

sorry if this has been explained before or if im over looking something here...

why doesnt Fordham play football in the Atlantic-10 since they are an all member team? I know the A-10 is going through some changes but why didnt they join back in the day? anybody know?

[DFW HOYA]

A-10 football did not emerge from the A-10 basketball conference, but instead was an acquisition of an existing league (the old Yankee Conference) which was given the A-10 name. Fordham was never a member of the Yankee Conference in football, so there was no prior tie which would have led them to this league.

In addition to Fordham, four other A-10 schools play football outside the league: Temple, Duquesne, Dayton, and LaSalle.

[th0m]

sorry if this has been explained before or if im over looking something here...

why doesnt Fordham play football in the Atlantic-10 since they are an all member team? I know the A-10 is going through some changes but why didnt they join back in the day? anybody know?

The A-10 Football Conference and the A-10 Conference other than football are two seperate things. Half of the teams in the A-10 Football compete in the CAA for all other sports, Richmond, UMass and URI are the 3 teams that are both in the A-10 for football as well as other sports. UMaine and UNH competes in the America East, Villanova in the Big East.

[JoltinJoe]

Fordham was a full member of the Patriot League until the mid-1990s. In an effort to upgrade its basketball profile, Fordham left the PL to join the A-10 in all sports, except football, which continued to play in the PL.

As others have noted, there was no A-10 football at that time Fordham moved to the A-10. After A-10 emerged after the end of the Yankee Conference, Fordham, as a full member of the A-10, had the option to move its football team to the A-10 and was in fact invited to do so on a number of occasions.

But Fordham has elected to keep playing football in the PL.

Interestingly, the emergence of the CAA in place of the A-10 could allow the PL to go scholarship without losing Fordham as a football member. NCAA by-laws require that an institution must play all of its sports in one conference. The only exception is that a school may play in another conference if the school's main conference supports that sport on a higher level than the school does.

Fordham has been able to play in the PL despite the existence of A-10 football because Fordham sponsors non-scholarship I-AA football, which is deemed to be a lower level of support than scholarship I-AA football.

If the PL had gone scholarship while the A-10 was also supporting scholarship I-AA football, Fordham would have been required (if it went scholarship) to then play football in the A-10 conference. Now that there will be no A-10 football, Fordham would be free to play scholarship football in the PL, if the league goes scholarship.

[DFW HOYA]

Interestingly, the emergence of the CAA in place of the A-10 could allow the PL to go scholarship without losing Fordham as a football member. NCAA by-laws require that an institution must play all of its sports in one conference. The only exception is that a school may play in another conference if the school's main conference supports that sport on a higher level than the school does.

Maybe not. Georgetown competes in the Northeast Conference in swimming and that's not a higher level than the Big East. And schools like Army and Navy compete within the Ivy League in selected minor sports.

[carney2]

All of the preceding comments are correct and on point, but to this, I think, needs to be added a commentary that the Patriot League is still, in some respects, a League in search of an identity. It consists of 8 schools: American, Army, Bucknell*, Colgate*, Holy Cross, Lafayette*, Lehigh*, and Navy. (The ones marked with an asterisk are, in my opinion, joined at the hip and are the heart and soul of the League.) It is a somewhat strange collection with one school (American) not fielding a football team, and two others (Army and Navy) playing at the I-A level. The throw away comment has always been that The Patriot League was encouraged into existence by the Ivy League so that they would have someone to play and, in their opinions at that time, beat in football. With only five members fielding I-AA football teams, the League has traditionally accepted "football only" members such as Fordham, Georgetown and, previously, Towson State. Members also "opt out" of the League for specific activities such as Army and Navy in football and Lehigh in wrestling.

In any event, the League is a work in progress. I believe that there will be comings and goings over the years before this settles into its final form. American is the new kid on the block and with each passing year Holy Cross gets tied a little closer to the core schools. The rest of it however is up for grabs. Army and Navy are national institutions that just don't seem to fit. Geography and academics make it difficult to find potential new matches. Large state universities such as Delaware, New Hampshire, UMass, etc. don't make much sense. It's a niche league that will always have a little trouble carving out its own space and its own unique identity.

[colgate13]

It's a niche league that will always have a little trouble carving out its own space and its own unique identity.

I agree with most of your sentiments. Your last statement is true - to a point. I think that we're busy trying to carve out an identity but it is being done piecemeal at best. Are we a basketball conference? Holy Cross and Bucknell are thinking so. Are we a football conference? Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh probably think so. Are we an Ivy Lite conference? A lot of presidents think so (thankfully they are becoming 'former' presidents). What about Lax? We've become an awfully good lacrosse conference lately too.

What has been missing from the PL is a concerted, joint effort to advance our missions as a whole. The scholarship issue/transformation is opening the doors for change, but I still think we're not all on the same page yet. Of course I'm biased, but I think that Colgate has been handed the torch from Holy Cross in terms of pushing the league direction athletically. Holy Cross is responsible for making the PL a basketball scholarship league and a team like Bucknell would not be enjoying the success it has if not for HC. Colgate has taken a huge leap with scholarships in other sports besides football and I think that is the next push. Sure American had scholarships and dominates in field hockey and volleyball, but they are to most still a bit of an outsider. Now that Colgate is there too with soccer, lax, swimming, softball, etc. schollies it is only a matter of time before everyone else joins in too.

The final dominoe to fall is football. I think Colgate is pushing that one too; my real hope is that we PL schools can all get on the same page and make the final push together instead of one school getting out ahead and everyone else playing catchup; because frankly we're still playing catchup in basketball for the most part.

We've got new presidents in place at a lot of schools. I'm optimistic for things going forward.

On a side note, I'd love to see Fordham come back into the PL now that there is no scholarship issue for hoops. It would probably happen over many alums dead bodies, but you can't argue (I don't think you can anyway) that Fordham's NCAA tourney chances in hoops are better in the PL than in the A-10. Food for thought.

[bandl]

Shorter replies here, please....my lord. It's like reading encyclopedias with you people... :rotateh:

[carney2]

Shorter replies here, please....my lord. It's like reading encyclopedias with you people... :rotateh:

Longer attention spans, please. Most folks here are college grads and can handle this. :eyebrow:

[TheValleyRaider]

Shorter replies here, please....my lord. It's like reading encyclopedias with you people... :rotateh:

There's a reason we're in the Patriot League :p ;)

[Fordham]

Right now there is no academically-elite, high-performing-athletics CONFERENCE out there. The Duke's, Stanfords, etc. of the world all compete in conferences that are more about sports mktg. than academics while the Ivies' compete in a conference that is more about academics mktg. than athletics. There is no real hybrid out there and anyone who has taken basic level Mktg. courses will tell you that you cannot occupy the same space in the consumer's mind if that space is already being occupied by someone else. Thus, as long as the PL doesn't compete THAT well overall nationally in athletics, the more it will always be a poor sister to the Ivies. It will also be difficult to crack into the Duke/Stanford mode of being individually elite academic institutions who compete in conferences based more on geography or athletic performance. From a Marketing perspective, this is the niche I wish the PL would fill.

Also, I personally would love to see Fordham back in the PL but gate13 is correct that many of the avid hoops fans would blow a gasket at the thought. You can never say never but there would have to be some amazing progress made by PL schools in athletics overall for that to take place. I guess if it were to pass by the A10 in terms of conference rankings (particularly in hoops), there could be no argument against it but who knows how long that will take, whether or not the PL would still want us back as full members at that time and whether or not conferences like the Big East, A10, etc. will even be around in any format resembling what we see today.

(Cliffs Notes for bandl):

PL: :hurray:

Fordham & PL: xprost2x xsmoochx :nono:

[bandl]

There's a reason we're in the Patriot League :p ;)
Because you WANT to be in the Ivy League, but just aren't quite smart enough??? ;)

[colgate13]

Also, I personally would love to see Fordham back in the PL but gate13 is correct that many of the avid hoops fans would blow a gasket at the thought. You can never say never but there would have to be some amazing progress made by PL schools in athletics overall for that to take place. I guess if it were to pass by the A10 in terms of conference rankings (particularly in hoops), there could be no argument against it but who knows how long that will take, whether or not the PL would still want us back as full members at that time and whether or not conferences like the Big East, A10, etc. will even be around in any format resembling what we see today.


Joe, besides hoops, what other sports do you think the PL has to improve enough to be considered a better option than the A-10?

As for the second bold, the PL would welcome back Fordham with open arms. I'm told there are minor attempts to do just that pretty much every year.

[Fordham]

Joe, besides hoops,

I guess we all look alike to you.

[bandl]

(Cliffs Notes for handl):

PL: :hurray:

Fordham & PL: xprost2x xsmoochx :nono:

I don't get it....can you explain, please??? A lengthy dissertation outta do it. :cool:

(I sincerely hope that the PL folk have a sense of humor... xsmoochx )

[colgate13]

I guess we all look alike to you.

:doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:

SORRY!
I'm doing 20 things at once today... my apologies Fordham/PA Ram. (BTW, it's tough enough keeping that one straight! ;)

But could you answer my question still please????xsmoochx

[Fordham]

bandl - ironically enough, the "I don't get it ... " response was exactly what I was typing when I saw this one from you. That's the same response I tell my Polish-descent wife to give when someone tells a Polish joke around her (she doesn't understand why, though).

And my line above, despite the "handl" mis-type, was only tongue-in-cheek, as I think were the others.

[bandl]

bandl - ironically enough, the "I don't get it ... " response was exactly what I was typing when I saw this one from you. That's the same response I tell my Polish-descent wife to give when someone tells a Polish joke around her (she doesn't understand why, though).

And my line above, despite the "handl" mis-type, was only tongue-in-cheek, as I think were the others.
We're on the same page....a little humor never hurt no one!!

I'm just trying to learn a bit more about the PL teams I hardly hear about, besides Lehigh, Lafayette and Colgate....but I fell asleep through a couple of the replies. ;)

BTW, congrats on your 500th post. xprost2x

[Go...gate]

I would also like to see the Rams as a full PL member. They would strengthen PL Baseball, which has some decent programs, but none really good except for Army.

[Fordham]

Joe, besides hoops, what other sports do you think the PL has to improve enough to be considered a better option than the A-10?

As for the second bold, the PL would welcome back Fordham with open arms. I'm told there are minor attempts to do just that pretty much every year.

valleyraider, hoops is far and away the most important and the truth is that if the PL ever surpassed the A10 in terms of conference ranking it would likely be enough. It's the most high profile sport at Fordham and the most important in the A10 and as long as the A10 is rated a higher (right now by a good spread) conference than the PL, this move wouldn't happen).

My comment there, however, was moreso intimating that a further good argument against anyone who is anti-PL for Fordham would be to show them that across many sports the PL ranking is higher than the A10 one, which I don't believe can be done now. It is my perception that overall the lack of scholarships until recently, has had the PL ranked much lower than the A10 in most sports. I know that there may be individual exceptions (e.g. - Lehigh wrastling, Gate hockey, B-nell hoops) but I believe that most have been very recent and, at least in Bucknell's case, been very influenced by scholarships. So, again, it's really about basketball but I think seeing that the PL is higher ranked than the A10 in other key sports at Fordham like baseball/softball would be helpful to get some of the most fervently anti-PL-ers on board (although some never will).

[Fordham]

We're on the same page....a little humor never hurt no one!!


be careful of the double superlatives, bandl. :nono: (figured you'd appreciate an egghead response)


BTW, congrats on your 500th post. xprost2x

http://www.why-is-the-sky-blue.tv/images/why-is-grass-green.jpghttp://www.photohome.com/pictures/mixed/donkey-1.jpg

[Pard4Life]

I think A-10 hoops are on the downfall. The only context I'm reffering to here is program quality. Who else in the A10 is competitive aside from George Washington, St. Joseph's, Temple, and Xavier? Last year I think only one.. or two teams were invited to the dance. This year, I think only GWU is projected by the EPSN wizards. This used to be a power conference with numerous teams in the dance... even Final Four contenders.. Temple #2 seed in 2000, UMass 1996. St. Joseph's was something unsusal in 2004. But who else has seriously made this conference interesting? ACC is power conference... anybody can beat anybody... same with ACC, Big10, BigEast.. A10 has fallen to mid-major status in my opinion. The OVC is stronger (i.e. So. Illinois, Wichita St., Creighton). If the PL can get it's act together on the recruiting trail we could recruit a respectable mid-major conference... perhaps Bucknell and Holy Cross are only the beginning. If Lafayette gets schollies maybe you will have three superb teams with an NCAA and 2 NITs each year.. heck maybe two NCAAs if two teams are stellar.

But getting back to the Fordham arguement, your school is often identified with the company you keep. I find it funny associating Fordham with St. Bonaventure. The Bonnies are a mess, and Fordham is trying to raise it's academic profile. Now doesn't Fordham, Colgate, Lafayette, Bucknell, Holy Cross sound like a nicer bunch of neighboors? If we can raise our basketball profile, and we are trying and succeeding right now.. then perhaps FU can come back from the dark side.

And on the football arguement... Fordham should stay in PL football. We are just as good as the A-10, CAA, Yankee.. whatever...

And in quick closing I'd like to see Richmond in the PL. That 'you are identified with the company you keep' assertion is quite true. I always thought Richmond to be your run of the mill state school or middle of the road academic school since they were A10 and CAA (?) before that. But from reading about schools, turns out they are pretty solid. Why not go PL to enhance that image?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The PL can be boiled down to three credos:

* excellent academics
* smallish, private schools
* accomodating to your athletic needs

It's that last one that is the PL's strength, and weakness. Need scholarships in wrestling/lacrosse/ice hockey/men's basketball? OK.. as long as it's that one only. Army/Navy, need your FB program to stay I-A? Welcome aboard! G'town, you're in the Big East, but need a home for your building FB program? Welcome to the PL! etc...

I think the PL has seriously come of age after being in existence for 20 years, starting with Patriot League playoff success in football (including a Lambert Cup for Lehigh in 2001), and finishing with Bucknell's shock victory in the 1st round of the NCAA Tourney last year. We really have a great bunch of member schools, and I think that Army, Navy, G'Town, Fordham, and everyone are pretty happy with the arrangement. (Yes, including Army and Navy.)

Ideally, we'd pursue new all-sports members to further strengthen the core of the PL, like (D-III) Johns Hopkins, which is my :twocents:

[carney2]

How's this for the future of what we used to denigrate as the Patsy League?:

Definite members:

The core group:

Bucknell
Colgate
Lafayette
Lehigh

The fellow traveler:

Holy Cross

New kids on the block:

Richmond
Villanova

On the bubble with one foot seemingly always out the door:

Fordham comes home, but not without some bloodletting.

The dearly departed:

Georgetown, tired of chasing its own tail, joins forces with whatever the
MAAC has become at that time.

None of this is new and, of course, it presupposes mucho changes on the eastern I-AA landscape.

[TxSt02]

thanks guys for the info! i think i am starting to understand the whole yankee/A-10/CAA... thanks again!

[DFW HOYA]

How's this for the future of what we used
to denigrate as the Patsy League?...
Georgetown, tired of chasing its own tail,
joins forces with whatever the MAAC has become at that time.


Sounds like you're doing some denigrating of your own.

Look at it this way--Georgetown didn't hire an assistant from Navy to play MAAC schools.

[colgate13]

Sounds like you're doing some denigrating of your own.

Look at it this way--Georgetown didn't hire an assistant from Navy to play MAAC schools.

Agreed! I think it's PL success or bust for the Hoyas. And fellow PL brethern beware! G'Town is a sleeping giant... :nod:

[ngineer]

The PL can be boiled down to three credos:

* excellent academics
* smallish, private schools
* accomodating to your athletic needs

It's that last one that is the PL's strength, and weakness. Need scholarships in wrestling/lacrosse/ice hockey/men's basketball? OK.. as long as it's that one only. Army/Navy, need your FB program to stay I-A? Welcome aboard! G'town, you're in the Big East, but need a home for your building FB program? Welcome to the PL! etc...

I think the PL has seriously come of age after being in existence for 20 years, starting with Patriot League playoff success in football (including a Lambert Cup for Lehigh in 2001), and finishing with Bucknell's shock victory in the 1st round of the NCAA Tourney last year. We really have a great bunch of member schools, and I think that Army, Navy, G'Town, Fordham, and everyone are pretty happy with the arrangement. (Yes, including Army and Navy.)

Ideally, we'd pursue new all-sports members to further strengthen the core of the PL, like (D-III) Johns Hopkins, which is my :twocents:

One slight note--wrestling and ice hockey are not PL sports. Separate conferences. The PL has become very solid and has gathered respect from recent success in football, basketball, lacrosse and soccer on the national scene. Women's athetics have garnered national recognition, too. Fordham would do well to become all-sports member. Trying to stay in A-10 is :bang:

[JoltinJoe]

Joe, besides hoops, what other sports do you think the PL has to improve enough to be considered a better option than the A-10?

As for the second bold, the PL would welcome back Fordham with open arms. I'm told there are minor attempts to do just that pretty much every year.

Since you addressed this to me, I'll respond although you weren't really addressing me.

You can count me among the Fordham fans that did not want to leave the PL, even for basketball. When Fordham moved to the A-10, I believed that we were not ready to compete at the level and had no appreciation of what it would take to compete at the level. For a long time, I believed I was right. But with Coach Whittenburg on board, I'm beginning to believe we have a legitimate chance to make a mark nationally with our basketball program.

But in any event, I have always thought that the PL is a sleeping basketball giant. If the PL were to go full scholarship, I can see within 8-10 years that it would become a genuine basketball hotbed. Whatever conference can offer full rides packaged with the strong academics that the PL can? In the East, I see the PL with scholarships easily surpassing the MAAC. I see the PL best teams ready to compete with the better teams in the A-10. I don't think the PL will get anywhere near the level of the Big East, because many of those programs will take any kid who can put the ball in the hole. But that's another question entirely.

Anyway, you have a good point. Other than basketball and perhaps baseball (often a strong program at Fordham), the PL is as good or better option for Fordham than the A-10.

Too bad, with hindsight, we can't all go back to 1995 and do it all over again. Fordham petitions the PL for basketball scholarships and the petition is granted. Fordham stays in the PL. All of the league teams benefit, and programs like Bucknell and Holy Cross begin making their marks years earlier.

Too bad, because all that separated Fordham and the PL was the issue of basketball scholarships. And now the PL has opened the door on which Fordham knocked a decade ago. In fact, in order to address Fordham's decision to leave the PL, the PL took in American -- which signed on only if it could keep scholarships. So the PL traded Fordham for American, and got stuck with scholarships anyway. I have to imagine most PLers see that as a bad trade off.

Too bad that some PL insiders see athletic scholarships as something to be avoided. There is nothing wrong with an athletic scholarship, so long as the school requires the scholarship athlete to earn his or her degree without any special benefits. If the school makes them go to class and do the work, what's the harm of the scholarship?

[colgate13]

In fact, in order to address Fordham's decision to leave the PL, the PL took in American -- which signed on only if it could keep scholarships. So the PL traded Fordham for American, and got stuck with scholarships anyway. I have to imagine most PLers see that as a bad trade off.

That's putting it mildly!

Thanks for your thoughts Joe. Maybe some day... :)

[blukeys]

That's the same response I tell my Polish-descent wife to give when someone tells a Polish joke around her (she doesn't understand why, though).



Polish descent wives are hot. I've seen some great comebacks to Polish jokes given by my cousins (female Polish types).. I don't get it also works in a nice way. :rolleyes: