Lafayette Future Schedule and Patriot League News

[Pard4Life]

Heard some interesting information from well placed sources...

Future schedule: Robert Morris is going to be added for a series in the coming years, Delaware will be 2014, 2015, 2016 with two games being at Newark, a series vs. William and Mary in 2015, 2016. Villanova has never really been warm to us and seemingly has not been able to work anything out. Rutgers is interested in scheduling us but we do not meet the minimum scholarship equivalencies. Colgate, for example, has over 60. Rutgers and Duke have approached us for games but we had to turn them down.

Army and Navy would like to rotate games with all of the PL teams, but again, scholarships are the issue.

Georgetown has had more than a few casual conversations about joining the Pioneer League in the future, which is not surprising or even news if we decide to go scholarship.

Speaking of... the vote stands 3-3...

Yes: Lehigh, Colgate, Fordham
No: Lafayette, Holy Cross, Georgetown
TBD: Bucknell, who has a new president from Stanford, where athletics and academics have been merged successfully. They are one of the top athletics programs nationally and they are arguably #2 behind Harvard in overall academic quality.
Will vote yes (I think if the majority votes yes?): Army, Navy
Abstaining: American

However, if the league votes yes, Lafayette will implement scholarships despite our opposition. We will not have a basketball situation once more. Our opposition comes down to faculty pressure and budget issues.

Fordham has been told by the League that there will be a decision in December, but a decision to delay the decision is a decision, I suppose... They deserve an honest answer; they waited instead of just bolting and I'm sure other leagues would want their program...

[Pard94]

Wow.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I keep waiting to see "April Fool" below this post. So it's all true?

[heath]

Are there really any negatves to the scholarship issue for the PL? Wouldn't it make them more competative on the field,more attractive to other programs to play,thus a chance at a bigger pay day when going to play at a Rutgers or UConn? I honestly don't think it would pull down academic standards. You don't have to recruit everyone with a 2.0 and 900 SAT scores. If they do vote Scollies in, will it take affect next year? Does Georgetown then leave?

[Bogus Megapardus]

We'll need a whole thread for Blue Hen fans to deny that Delaware will ever travel to Easton.

"Rutgers and Duke have approached us for games but we had to turn them down. Army and Navy would like to rotate games with all of the PL teams, but again, scholarships are the issue."

Well, doesn't that just say it all.

[Bogus Megapardus]

a chance at a bigger pay day when going to play at a Rutgers

Rutgers will be an issue. Given the very long history among Lehigh, Lafayette and Rutgers, we might be looking for some home games with them as well.

[DFW HOYA]

Correction--Georgetown does not have interest in the Pioneer League and I have heard this first-hand. However, it may need to schedule more of these teams if it is no longer welcome in the PL.

[LUHawker]

Heard some interesting information from well placed sources...

Future schedule: Robert Morris is going to be added for a series in the coming years, Delaware will be 2014, 2015, 2016 with two games being at Newark, a series vs. William and Mary in 2015, 2016. Villanova has never really been warm to us and seemingly has not been able to work anything out. Rutgers is interested in scheduling us but we do not meet the minimum scholarship equivalencies. Colgate, for example, has over 60. Rutgers and Duke have approached us for games but we had to turn them down.

Army and Navy would like to rotate games with all of the PL teams, but again, scholarships are the issue.

Georgetown has had more than a few casual conversations about joining the Pioneer League in the future, which is not surprising or even news if we decide to go scholarship.

Speaking of... the vote stands 3-3...

Yes: Lehigh, Colgate, Fordham
No: Lafayette, Holy Cross, Georgetown
TBD: Bucknell, who has a new president from Stanford, where athletics and academics have been merged successfully. They are one of the top athletics programs nationally and they are arguably #2 behind Harvard in overall academic quality.
Will vote yes (I think if the majority votes yes?): Army, Navy
Abstaining: American

However, if the league votes yes, Lafayette will implement scholarships despite our opposition. We will not have a basketball situation once more. Our opposition comes down to faculty pressure and budget issues.

Fordham has been told by the League that there will be a decision in December, but a decision to delay the decision is a decision, I suppose... They deserve an honest answer; they waited instead of just bolting and I'm sure other leagues would want their program...

Adding UD and W&M would be great for the Pards, and I'd be upset that LU couldn't get UD, given our long rivalry there. While that is all interesting news, the biggest thing that struck me from this post was the comment that I highlighted about Army and Navy wanting to rotate scheduling PL teams. Strong scholly support from League members would be very good and I believe influential in getting the vote to a yes.

If Army and Navy get a vote, why isn't the vote 5-3 in favor of and this should now be a done deal?

[LUHawker]

However, it may need to schedule more of these teams if it is no longer welcome in the PL.

I think your characterization of GTown not being welcome in the PL is a bit specious.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I honestly don't think it would pull down academic standards. You don't have to recruit everyone with a 2.0 and 900 SAT scores.

The academic standards aren't the issue, really. The Patriot League maintains a league-wide Academic Index for athletic admissions. If anything, the standards with scholarships will become more rigorous than they are now. The problem is money for these smaller, private schools that are spread thin (or at least they think they are), and maintaining a tradition that is very important to many alumni, faculty members and trustees - none of whom could care less about what we think on these boards.

A fat payout each year from an FBS school would help but the "tradition" thing is adverse to playing football games for the purpose of getting fat payouts.

[heath]

Maybe its time to start some new traditions. especially if it means surviving or not.

[bison137]

Maybe its time to start some new traditions. especially if it means surviving or not.


Given the very significant cost to most schools of adding scholarships, survival is more assured without scholarships. What is at stake is the quality of the survival.

[Pard4Life]

I keep waiting to see "April Fool" below this post. So it's all true?

The Lafayette info at least is... but the Army/Navy and G'town related info was based on conversations with people on their end. So I can't directly say that portion is 100% true, it could just be sentiments within their camps and not the official stance, but it makes sense.

[Pard4Life]

The academic standards aren't the issue, really. The Patriot League maintains a league-wide Academic Index for athletic admissions. If anything, the standards with scholarships will become more rigorous than they are now. The problem is money for these smaller, private schools that are spread thin (or at least they think they are), and maintaining a tradition that is very important to many alumni, faculty members and trustees - none of whom could care less about what we think on these boards.

A fat payout each year from an FBS school would help but the "tradition" thing is adverse to playing football games for the purpose of getting fat payouts.

A nice fat payout would found the scholarships and other athletics needs.

[Pard4Life]

If Army and Navy get a vote, why isn't the vote 5-3 in favor of and this should now be a done deal?

You would think so, but I interpreted it as Army/Navy voting with the majority or abstaining it's rejected by the football members... but, on their vote alone scholarships would be a done deal 5-4 or 6-3.

[DFW HOYA]

I think your characterization of GTown not being welcome in the PL is a bit specious.

Not now, of course, but in the scenario where the PL adopts scholarships and there is consensus among the presidents that everyone needs to get to a general funding level (by equivalencies or scholarships), there might be cause to show Georgetown the door. Since none of the six have any deep athletic ties with GU, it's not like Lehigh telling Bucknell to hit the road.

[Bogus Megapardus]

People outside of the Patriot League who read this stuff (if any) must think we're insane.

[carney2]

Are there really any negatves to the scholarship issue for the PL? Wouldn't it make them more competative on the field,more attractive to other programs to play,thus a chance at a bigger pay day when going to play at a Rutgers or UConn? I honestly don't think it would pull down academic standards. You don't have to recruit everyone with a 2.0 and 900 SAT scores. If they do vote Scollies in, will it take affect next year? Does Georgetown then leave?

I don't want to go here again, but...

This is not a football decision. It is a money decision, and there are other entrenched anti-football constituencies that cannot be ignored. The basics:

The scholarships themselves would cost next to nothing. For the most part - and with the exception of Georgetown - they would be more or less a dollar for dollar replacement of need based aid that is currently being offered. No need to go there and do the usual "I don't understand" thing. NO COST FOR THE SCHOLARSHIPS THEMSELVES!!! Comprende?

At Lafayette, and I believe Bucknell, the cost comes from what would have to be ponied up to become compliant with Title IX (gender equity) requirements. More basics: Need based aid, even when awarded to a football applicant, is theoretically the same aid that is available to all incoming students: male, female, or 90 pound computer science nerd. A football scholarship, on the other hand, is awarded to a male athlete only, and must be evened out on the other side of the gender ledger.

There are many more issues, all going against football scholarships and some involving even more money, but you now have the basics.

Oh, and just for the record, and, I guess, since you brought it up you really won't understand anyway, but for the people making this decision, more wins, fewer losses, and being more competietive on the gridiron doesn't mean diddly squat. It is pretty much a non-starter in this decision process.

[carney2]

If Army and Navy get a vote, why isn't the vote 5-3 in favor of and this should now be a done deal?

Army, Navy and American do not have a horse in this race and the honoroable thing to do is abstain.

[JMUNJ08]

People outside of the Patriot League who read this stuff (if any) must think we're insane.

For not going with at least partial schollies! xlolxxlolxxlolx
We do want some more OOC competition that has been lacking in recent years sans a few teams/games...

Why can't G'town pony up some extra cash for them? Are their pockets full of zippo or is it the administration that lost its glasses?

[carney2]

People outside of the Patriot League who read this stuff (if any) must think we're insane.

There is a mind set out there that seems to always conclude, "If you will win more games, why wouldn't you do it?" What do they think is the purpose of the academy?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Army, Navy and American do not have a horse in this race and the honoroable thing to do is abstain.

Devil's advocate time (and I realize this may spawn off 100+ more threads on the PL and scholarships, but here goes...)... if I'm Army and Navy, don't I want things pretty much exactly the same as they are today? A "non-scholly PL" gives them a convenient excuse to NOT schedule PL schools in football. Is scheduling PL teams what the USMA and USNA really want? In my study of this biz, the opposite has been true.

[carney2]

A fat payout each year from an FBS school would help...

And, casual readers do not get carried away with the "money game" argument. My guess is that the kinds of games being dicussed here (Army, Navy, Rutgers, Duke, etc.) would pay something in the $300,00-$500,00 range. A lot of money sez you. Not nearly enough sez I when you consider that Lafayette would probably have to spend $1.2-$1.5 million annually to make this happen.

NOTE: All dollar figures are my personal guesstimates, but I'm betting that I am order of magnitude spot-on.

[carney2]

Devil's advocate time (and I realize this may spawn off 100+ more threads on the PL and scholarships, but here goes...)... if I'm Army and Navy, don't I want things pretty much exactly the same as they are today? A "non-scholly PL" gives them a convenient excuse to NOT schedule PL schools in football. Is scheduling PL teams what the USMA and USNA really want? In my study of this biz, the opposite has been true.

On the other hand, an almost automatic "W," especially for Army, isn't such a bad thing. They get a home game with no pressure to reciprocate, and keep the gate receipts minus the "money game" guarantee. It would be their version of Penn State vs. Youngstown State or Alabama vs. Troy State. Besides, they take one for the team and make their fellow PLers "happy."

[DFW HOYA]

Why can't G'town pony up some extra cash for them?

No money.

[Franks Tanks]

On the other hand, an almost automatic "W," especially for Army, isn't such a bad thing. They get a home game with no pressure to reciprocate, and keep the gate receipts minus the "money game" guarantee. It would be their version of Penn State vs. Youngstown State or Alabama vs. Troy State. Besides, they take ine for the team make their fellow PLers "happy."

Over the last decade I feel Army would lose to the PL champ more often than not. With scholarship we would beat them frequently. Navy is another story.

[ColgateTD]

Over the last decade I feel Army would lose to the PL champ more often than not. With scholarship we would beat them frequently. Navy is another story.

Couldn't agree with you more Frank...

[Bogus Megapardus]

Dan Weiss invites John Bravman to his parlor at the College Hill "white house" for pâté de foie gras and a nice Veuve Clicquot. Their discussion turns to "that football thing again." Which of the following best describes the conversation as overheard by the sommelier that evening from his clandestine perch in the antechamber?



(a) "Stanford avoids the eastern elitist axiom that top-drawer scholarship and athletics can't coincide. Why not here? Bucknell's a 'yes' in December, Dan. I'm all for it."

(b) "John, old chum, ars historia is a thin enough reed for me to be hanging onto around these back-stabbing vultures without having to ruffle their truffles even further. The faculty wants to be relived of that whole "teaching" bother for once and for all. If the classroom duties aren't farmed out by next term I'm sunk. There's just no wiggle room for trivialities. You're going to have to vote 'no' for me, okey-dokie? There's a good fellow."

(c) "Dan, some of the faculty has been in Lewisburg so long they're growing roots. Literally. We had to trailer a stump puller over to Sociology last week. I'm not going to upset the status quo until we're finished with the carbon-14 dating. I'm voting 'no' at least until the pleistocene epoch studies are complete."

(d) "John, I need you to vote, 'yes.' That way I can plausibly deny my role and explain to these nitwits that it wasn't my fault that we were forced into this thing. As the new guy, maybe you could help out a little here."


Please turn your bluebook over on the desk when you are finished. Exams will be graded "by December."

[Franks Tanks]

Dan Weiss invites John Bravman to his parlor at the College Hill "white house" for pâté de foie gras and a nice Veuve Clicquot. Their discussion turns to "that football thing again." Which of the following best describes the conversation as overheard by the sommelier that evening from his clandestine perch in the antechamber?



(a) "Stanford avoids the eastern elitist axiom that top-drawer scholarship and athletics can't coincide. Why not here? Bucknell's a 'yes' in December, Dan. I'm all for it."

(b) "John, old chum, ars historia is a thin enough reed for me to be hanging onto around these back-stabbing vultures without having to ruffle their truffles even further. The faculty wants to be relived of that whole "teaching" bother for once and for all. If the classroom duties aren't farmed out by next term I'm sunk. There's just no wiggle room for trivialities. You're going to have to vote 'no' for me, okey-dokie? There's a good fellow."

(c) "Dan, some of the faculty has been in Lewisburg so long they're growing roots. Literally. We had to trailer a stump puller over to Sociology last week. I'm not going to upset the status quo until we're finished with the carbon-14 dating. I'm voting 'no' at least until the pleistocene epoch studies are complete."

(d) "John, I need you to vote, 'yes.' That way I can plausibly deny my role and explain to these nitwits that it wasn't my fault that we were forced into this thing. As the new guy, maybe you could help out a little here."


Please turn your bluebook over on the desk when you are finished. Exams will be graded "by December."

I vote for D.

[heath]

Army, Navy and American do not have a horse in this race and the honoroable thing to do is abstain.

you sound like a politician who would rather ram his own politcal views down the throat of the rest of the PL(because of your own agenda or bias) than doing the right thing and allowing the majority to rule if that happens. Need based aid is a tax cut to the rich,(some really good players are told they aren't offered because their parents dont make enough money, so that 1 kid costs the team too much of the schools need based pool $) . DO scholarships and allow ANY KID the equal opportunity to play for a PL team if he is recruited.

[Franks Tanks]

you sound like a politician who would rather ram his own politcal views down the throat of the rest of the PL(because of your own agenda or bias) than doing the right thing and allowing the majority to rule if that happens. Need based aid is a tax cut to the rich,(some really good players are told they aren't offered because their parents dont make enough money, so that 1 kid costs the team too much of the schools need based pool $) . DO scholarships and allow ANY KID the equal opportunity to play for a PL team if he is recruited.

I dont know which PL school indulges in this practice, but I dont find it to be true at Lafayette. Many of our best players are essentially full ride kids. They have need that equates full or dangerously close to full paid tuition and board.

[superman7515]

We'll need a whole thread for Blue Hen fans to deny that Delaware will ever travel to Easton.

I think it will happen. There was an article in the News Journal just today about how Coack Keeler wants to dumb down the schedule in the future... Haha.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I think it will happen. There was an article in the News Journal just today about how Coack Keeler wants to dumb down the schedule in the future... Haha.

But the article suggests that Delaware will only do its dumbing at home. I have no doubt that Keeler will want to kick a tomato or three can from the Patriot League, but on the road? Your fans will never allow it.

[MplsBison]

The academic standards aren't the issue, really. The Patriot League maintains a league-wide Academic Index for athletic admissions. If anything, the standards with scholarships will become more rigorous than they are now. The problem is money for these smaller, private schools that are spread thin (or at least they think they are), and maintaining a tradition that is very important to many alumni, faculty members and trustees - none of whom could care less about what we think on these boards.

A fat payout each year from an FBS school would help but the "tradition" thing is adverse to playing football games for the purpose of getting fat payouts.

What tradition? That football players should not receive merit aid to play football?

Get out of DI with that DIII-attitude. It's not welcome.

[MplsBison]

I dont know which PL school indulges in this practice, but I dont find it to be true at Lafayette. Many of our best players are essentially full ride kids. They have need that equates full or dangerously close to full paid tuition and board.

Need is utterly irrelevent in the question "how much money does a football player deserve, based on his contribution to the team winning their games?".

Utterly irrelevent.

[MplsBison]

No money.

The NCAA should allow DI bball schools to play DII football if they can't meet a minimum scholarship level to play FCS.

It won't be the same situation with Dayton, et al beating up on the poor, helpless DIII schools, so the DII schools won't complain. They'll more than likely look forward to pounding some DIII-wannabe football programs.

And then it gives DI bball schools that, for whatever incomprehensible reason, still want to have a varsity football team but don't want to properly fund it to the FCS competitive level a place to stash their programs in obscurity and away from FCS.

[RichH2]

Who left the door open and let the bison in.

Nice scenario Bogie. BU is a probable yes Agree that LC is a no. I dont think anyone really knows what Cross will do. Nice future schedules for the Pards.

Lest we forget, the success of Pl last year with 3 squads in the top 25 does not help schollie argument. The converse of course is not true. If we have no teams ranked this year, doubtful it will be of any help with merit aid.

[Sader87]

Who left the door open and let the bison in.

Nice scenario Bogie. BU is a probable yes Agree that LC is a no. I dont think anyone really knows what Cross will do. Nice future schedules for the Pards.

Lest we forget, the success of Pl last year with 3 squads in the top 25 does not help schollie argument. The converse of course is not true. If we have no teams ranked this year, doubtful it will be of any help with merit aid.

Agreed...while there is a very vocal voice to return scholarships at HC, the thinking (amoung some, many?) is that to do so would besmirch Fr Brooks' SJ legacy who essentially created the PL.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

First post from a long-time reader.
1) Thanks for your discussions. This Bison is now penned in New Mexico, so the net has been my link back into following Bucknell.
2) I find it odd to be defending a MplsBison question, but it is a weighty one that did not exist 20 years ago. The decision to allow merit aid in other sports a few years ago seems to now leave football players alone unable to access that resource-- in the entire University. Equity across the entire atheletics department now seems appropriate adding merit aid for football and making the Title IX adjustments now could be seen to fit in the League and to not do so, backward.

[Pards Rule]

Over the last decade I feel Army would lose to the PL champ more often than not. With scholarship we would beat them frequently. Navy is another story.

Agreed! When we were cooking with Maurer/Curley I was thinking: damnit, why isnt Army on the schedule?!? Those years it would have been competitive and we might have won too!

[Franks Tanks]

Agreed! When we were cooking with Maurer/Curley I was thinking: damnit, why isnt Army on the schedule?!? Those years it would have been competitive and we might have won too!

Very true. I am glad the Black Knights arent on the schedule this year however.

[Sader87]

Hard to beat games at Michie Stadium...HC actually had a very good rivalry with Army in the 70's and 80's (HC went 4-2 against Army from 1978 to1987)...but then we joined the Patriot League and gave up schollies. : (

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/patriot/holy_cross/opponents_records.php?teamid=188

[Bogus Megapardus]

We continued to play Army through the 80s and early 90s, but no more.

[Franks Tanks]

Hard to beat games at Michie Stadium...HC actually had a very good rivalry with Army in the 70's and 80's (HC went 4-2 against Army from 1978 to1987)...but then we joined the Patriot League and gave up schollies. : (

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/patriot/holy_cross/opponents_records.php?teamid=188

You guys beat Army in 2002. After that they wanted no part of PL teams.