Should Neutral Site Games Count Towards Attendance?

[TexasTerror]

Attendance is a big factor in keeping teams at the FBS level (allegedly) and are vital in school's efforts to get into different conferences.

It is even getting quirky at the FBS level as the Sun Belt's top attended "home games" feature Arkansas as the road team against ULM in LITTLE ROCK, Ark! And this year, FAU is hosting Michigan State in Detroit (though a stadium delay in construction led to that).

With more PWC schools taking part in neutral site classics and the prevalence of HBCU classics, should these games be included?

Thoughts?

FYI...

At the FCS level, if attendance was counted for HOME SITES only instead of neutral site Classic games, the SWAC would have seen their attendance plummet from #1 to #6 or #7.

The SWAC's 8246 average would actually place the conference 6th or 7th behind the SoCon (12,014), Missouri Valley (10,799), Big Sky (10,217), Ivy (9,008) and Southland (8,749). I say 6th or 7th because the MEAC has a 10,141 listed attendance and I have not calculated that with the neutral site games out.

Credit:

http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/stats/football_records/Attendance/2009.pdf
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?66538-FCS-Attendance-Update

[msusig]

I don't think it should count towards attendance. It's really not a home game for either team. It's just another chance for the smaller schools to inflate their numbers.

[slostang]

Yes.

[TSUalum05]

In my opinion I don't think its a big deal either way as far as counting to the attendance figures because do not care how we measure up to other schools. Because people are going to come and the game will be played. I know our attendance will continue to grow as long as we are winning considering where we are coming from as a program.

Most FCS schools would love to play in front of 40k + and the bottom line when it comes to attendance is putting butts in the seats.

[bjtheflamesfan]

You created a similar thread last year; mods please merge these two since he's asking the same question.

In my opinion I don't think its a big deal either way as far as counting to the attendance figures because do not care how we measure up to other schools. Because people are going to come and the game will be played. I know our attendance will continue to grow as long as we are winning considering where we are coming from as a program.

Most FCS schools would love to play in front of 40k + and the bottom line when it comes to attendance is putting butts in the seats.

think you could find a link to it?

[TexasTerror]

In my opinion I don't think its a big deal either way as far as counting to the attendance figures because do not care how we measure up to other schools. Because people are going to come and the game will be played. I know our attendance will continue to grow as long as we are winning considering where we are coming from as a program.

You'd be surprised. There's a few fans that love to tout inflated numbers from these neutral site games in order to boost their conference's reputation and then there's a few schools that rely on these neutral site games at the FBS level in order to stay in compliance with NCAA rules!

[TSUalum05]

think you could find a link to it?

I tried last night and was unsuccessful. I thought it was a poll but I did find other discussions from TT regarding this subject several times but decided not to link them to this thread...I will edit my post above.

[TSUalum05]

You'd be surprised. There's a few fans that love to tout inflated numbers from these neutral site games in order to boost their conference's reputation and then there's a few schools that rely on these neutral site games at the FBS level in order to stay in compliance with NCAA rules!

I look at it as putting butts in the seat...

[DFW HOYA]

A compromise--count games within 60 miles of the school as a home game. If Texas Southern is playing a home game at Reliant Stadium, OK. If Howard is playing at Lucas Oil Stadium, it's a true neutral game.

[TSUalum05]

How does the NCAA determine a home stadium for teams? Is it only one stadium which I imagine most Universities have one stadium to call home except for us. That will be mute next year!

[henfan]

Thinking about the comment re conference average attendance, it occurs to me that the CAA's average will likely rise in future years with the departure of two former members with very poor attendance, NU & HU, and possibly one more, URI. The future additions of ODU and GSU, the latter of whom should be able to draw at least 10K per game, should further enhance CAA average attendance.

[gram4life]

A compromise--count games within 60 miles of the school as a home game. If Texas Southern is playing a home game at Reliant Stadium, OK. If Howard is playing at Lucas Oil Stadium, it's a true neutral game.

Disagree both Grambling and Southern are more that 60 miles away from home. Plus you cannot fit all the people who want to attend this game in our stadium. I guess it's our fault for having a successful game.

[gram4life]

You'd be surprised. There's a few fans that love to tout inflated numbers from these neutral site games in order to boost their conference's reputation and then there's a few schools that rely on these neutral site games at the FBS level in order to stay in compliance with NCAA rules!

So if you grow your game to such a large number that it can't hold the number people who want to attend, then you should be penalized for it? So Florida Classic, Magic City Classic, Bayou Classic should not count? Nah that's not right.

[Sly Fox]

No one is suggesting that neutral site games shouldn't be allowed. They just shouldn't be used to prop up home attendance numbers.

I love the classics and have attended a number myself that have nothing to do with my alma mater. Great atmosphere. Oh yeah, there may have been a game there as well but hardly anyone noticed.

[gram4life]

No one is suggesting that neutral site games shouldn't be allowed. They just shouldn't be used to prop up home attendance numbers.

I love the classics and have attended a number myself that have nothing to do with my alma mater. Great atmosphere. Oh yeah, there may have been a game there as well but hardly anyone noticed.

Never said anything about allowed, I'm saying how is it fair to disallow them in the count when games such as the 3 I mention have outgrown the stadiums. These are conference games, not some put together classics. These games are held in the same State as the schools. Not sure what classics you went to but people who attended BC, FC, AND MCC notice. And TT before you make the statement about the stadium empting out at the BC after half time, just isn't true I was at the game.

[Sly Fox]

I admit my Classics experience has been limited to the Labor Day Classic & the Bayou Classic. Both are amazing events where football happens to play a small role. Just look around after halftime to see how many football fans remain. And I say this as someone who loves the experience.

[mikebigg]

Cut to the chase...this is another attempt to criticize the SWAC by the conference's most ardent and consistent critic. And no mods this is not an attack, merely an observation. Those who are honest and objective will surely agree with my assesment.

Why? That's my question...why would anyone have a problem with something that's a positive for a fellow FCS conference? This much "hate" ain't healthy! Geesh!

[TexasTerror]

No one is suggesting that neutral site games shouldn't be allowed. They just shouldn't be used to prop up home attendance numbers.

That's exactly my point. Why should schools be able to count neutral site games towards attendance or the requirements of being a Division I member (as seen by the ULM example)?


I admit my Classics experience has been limited to the Labor Day Classic & the Bayou Classic. Both are amazing events where football happens to play a small role. Just look around after halftime to see how many football fans remain. And I say this as someone who loves the experience.

I'm glad someone else is willing to say what the SWAC-ites that I've encountered fail to admit. Heard that sentiment again today at lunch when sharing some good ole Louisiana fare with someone that works at an HBCU presently. This is not a bad thing, it is just what it is. The Classics are events where football is just one of the pieces of the puzzle that bring the fans together.

[gram4life]

That's exactly my point. Why should schools be able to count neutral site games towards attendance or the requirements of being a Division I member (as seen by the ULM example)?



I'm glad someone else is willing to say what the SWAC-ites that I've encountered fail to admit. Heard that sentiment again today at lunch when sharing some good ole Louisiana fare with someone that works at an HBCU presently. This is not a bad thing, it is just what it is. The Classics are events where football is just one of the pieces of the puzzle that bring the fans together.

So if half the people leave after homecoming that shouldn't count either or if it's a blowout before half time that shouldn't count? Your message reads just like MB stated.

[TexasTerror]

So if half the people leave after homecoming that shouldn't count either or if it's a blowout before half time that shouldn't count? Your message reads just like MB stated.

Never said the crowd the leaves at halftime should not count. See, now you are making things up!

Though you guys would love to say otherwise, my point was more in reference to schools/conferences who count neutral site attendance towards their home attendance to bolster chances at getting into other conferences or to meet NCAA home-hosting requirements (i.e. the ULM example, which you as Gramblingites should be aware of).

The NCAA should not count this towards either area and let's be honest, none of the SWAC schools are trying to use attendance to get into another conference. The only thing the SWAC does to take advantage is to give themselves another mythical "national championship" (attendance) that like the HBCU one, is not won on the field - but at least allows the league to have a point of pride, since competitively that is few and far between. ;)

[gram4life]

Never said the crowd the leaves at halftime should not count. See, now you are making things up!

Though you guys would love to say otherwise, my point was more in reference to schools/conferences who count neutral site attendance towards their home attendance to bolster chances at getting into other conferences or to meet NCAA home-hosting requirements (i.e. the ULM example, which you as Gramblingites should be aware of).

The NCAA should not count this towards either area and let's be honest, none of the SWAC schools are trying to use attendance to get into another conference. The only thing the SWAC does to take advantage is to give themselves another mythical "national championship" (attendance) that like the HBCU one, is not won on the field - but at least allows the league to have a point of pride, since competitively that is few and far between. ;)

You imply that the numbers are inflated because the fans leave at halftime. You never address the fact that the 3 games I mention, outgrew the stadiums and are conference games, held in the same state. This is just your way of trying to knock down the SWAC.
Your point about the NCAA is BS, but if it lets you sleep at night. Have at it.

[TexasTerror]

Your point about the NCAA is BS, but if it lets you sleep at night. Have at it.

So, ULM should be able to play home games in Little Rock, Arkansas (against Arkansas) in order to stay eligible against Div I opponents? Can they play a home game in New Orleans, La. (against LSU) and in Detroit, Mich (against Michigan) while they are at it? Seems novel!

ULM can claim a home game essentially on the road while playing at a neutral site...AND repeaing the rewards of playing before a crowd that truly makes it road-game like...

Your other comments do not justify a response due to poor comprehension of my post. I do urge you to read again and please feel free to come back to me...

[gram4life]

So, ULM should be able to play home games in Little Rock, Arkansas (against Arkansas) in order to stay eligible against Div I opponents? Can they play a home game in New Orleans, La. (against LSU) and in Detroit, Mich (against Michigan) while they are at it? Seems novel!

ULM can claim a home game essentially on the road while playing at a neutral site...AND repeaing the rewards of playing before a crowd that truly makes it road-game like...

Your other comments do not justify a response due to poor comprehension of my post. I do urge you to read again and please feel free to come back to me...

I understand your post, I disagree with it. What classic games help the swac attendance? BC, LDC, MCC, Literacy? any outside of those were counted? did they involve another conference?

[TexasTerror]

I understand your post, I disagree with it. What classic games help the swac attendance? BC, LDC, MCC, Literacy? any outside of those were counted? did they involve another conference?

There were 10 games in total attributed to a SWAC school in this past year's attendance per...

http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/2009/Internet/attendance/FCS_ATTENDANCE.pdf

It makes sense based on the numbers I've quoted previously that the SWAC received a substantial boost en route to claiming the NCAA attendance "title". Four MEAC games in comparison.

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

When have fans ever left the Bayou Classic after halftime. Now folks left after Gram scored again in the 3rd quarter. The game was basically over @ that point. The LSU vs App St game was completly empty after halftime. TT is just a SWAC hater.

[gram4life]

There were 10 games in total attributed to a SWAC school in this past year's attendance per...

http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/2009/Internet/attendance/FCS_ATTENDANCE.pdf

It makes sense based on the numbers I've quoted previously that the SWAC received a substantial boost en route to claiming the NCAA attendance "title". Four MEAC games in comparison.

Without in-depth research, it appears that most of the games that counted were against conference opponents in the same State. Is the NCAA only counting classic conference games?

[msusig]

So if you grow your game to such a large number that it can't hold the number people who want to attend, then you should be penalized for it? So Florida Classic, Magic City Classic, Bayou Classic should not count? Nah that's not right.

It shouldn't count towards their attendance record. Neither team is playing in their home stadiums. It should be counted as an away game for both teams.

[msusig]

You imply that the numbers are inflated because the fans leave at halftime. You never address the fact that the 3 games I mention, outgrew the stadiums and are conference games, held in the same state. This is just your way of trying to knock down the SWAC.
Your point about the NCAA is BS, but if it lets you sleep at night. Have at it.

It's all about the location. Those 3 games you mentioned shouldn't count either towards home attendance. If it held in a neutral site, then it shouldn't count towards your attendance record. I don't care if it is the SWAC or any other conference.

[Jaguar79]

Main point is if you can get people to attend a game YOU are playing in, why shouldn't you be able to count it as apart of YOUR attendance numbers, if you happened to be the home team. The fans CAME TO SEE YOU.

This isn't a big deal and if the NCAA doesn't have any issue with it, why the hell should anyone else? It just seems like SOME fans who don't have the capacity to do what other leagues do are making a big deal of nothing. I can help the fact that only 12,000 people want to attend your games, but it makes no sense for me to turn away 5,000 to 10,000 people when they want to see me. If I can get them to come, that should count for me, point blank.

What they do once they walk into the stadium is of little consequence in this discussion as well.

[TexasTerror]

Main point is if you can get people to attend a game YOU are playing in, why shouldn't you be able to count it as apart of YOUR attendance numbers, if you happened to be the home team. The fans CAME TO SEE YOU.

Did they really? I have a feeling that the fans in Little Rock, Arkansas and Detroit, Michigan were more interested in seeing Arkansas and Michigan State, respectively - and not the "home teams" of ULM and Florida Atlantic...

[T-Dog]

Main point is if you can get people to attend a game YOU are playing in, why shouldn't you be able to count it as apart of YOUR attendance numbers, if you happened to be the home team. The fans CAME TO SEE YOU.

This isn't a big deal and if the NCAA doesn't have any issue with it, why the hell should anyone else? It just seems like SOME fans who don't have the capacity to do what other leagues do are making a big deal of nothing. I can help the fact that only 12,000 people want to attend your games, but it makes no sense for me to turn away 5,000 to 10,000 people when they want to see me. If I can get them to come, that should count for me, point blank.

What they do once they walk into the stadium is of little consequence in this discussion as well.

I agree in the case of FCS vs FCS games. The schools should count it towards their home attendance even if it's at a neutral site and be proud of it.

In the case of ULM and FAU in their "home" games, it doesn't seem right for them to claim it as a home game as it isn't as it's closer to the "away" team and the "away" team will undoubtedly have more fans there.

[gram4life]

I agree in the case of FCS vs FCS games. The schools should count it towards their home attendance even if it's at a neutral site and be proud of it.

In the case of ULM and FAU in their "home" games, it doesn't seem right for them to claim it as a home game as it isn't as it's closer to the "away" team and the "away" team will undoubtedly have more fans there.

Thank you, plus most of the games(Classics) we play in are conference games.