Could Expansion Come to a Screeching Halt??

[superman7515]

Latest Additions to Pac-10 Conference not all Positive (http://www.sfexaminer.com/sports/Dickey-Latest-additions-to-Pac-10-Conference-not-all-positive-101138474.html#ixzz0xEnw59gE)


The expansion of the Pac-10 Conference to include Colorado and Utah is not set in stone. It’s meeting some strong opposition, most notably from former UCLA chancellor Chuck Young, who is still on the Knight’s Commission for intercollegiate athletics.


Part of it is based on academic grounds. Among major conferences, the Pac-10 is the best academically, largely because of Stanford, Cal and UCLA. “Colorado is on a par with Oregon,” he said. “Utah isn’t even in the picture.”

[Jackman]

Pathetic article.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What's so pathetic about it? Maybe Pac-12 expansion won't be stopped, but it's clear that UCLA's president is unhappy, by the multitude of quotables in the article. He set a torch to Utah in particular, academically, by his comments.

And that Knight commission is certainly an ivory tower, but don't underestimate their influence on this whole game. They remain influential - and committed to reining in college athletics - and the last thing the Pac Twelve/Big Ten want to do is have them rummage around in their affairs. Don't get me wrong, I am not a huge fan of the Knight commission overall, but I acknowledge that they have strong influence, and in this case they could do some good.

[DaBigBlue]

The BCS is doing it's best to protect their private club. It's worst than Wall Street, Big Oil, Cable Companies and the Drug Cartels all wrapped up into one.

[PantherRob82]

Maybe Pac-12 expansion won't be stopped, but it's clear that UCLA's president is unhappy, by the multitude of quotables in the article.

Doesn't it say former UCLA Chancellor?

[Jackman]

What's so pathetic about it?

It's a total hit job that only quotes a single former chancellor with a bug up his butt who makes at best arguable and at worst completely false statements about the academic level of the new members. Saying that Utah isn't on the level of Oregon State or Arizona State is ridiculous. If they want to pretend to be the Ivy League, that's great, but to do that they should step aside and quit being one of the two powers most responsible for keeping the BCS monopoly alive.

[JMU1992]

Latest Additions to Pac-10 Conference not all Positive (http://www.sfexaminer.com/sports/Dickey-Latest-additions-to-Pac-10-Conference-not-all-positive-101138474.html#ixzz0xEnw59gE)

Being a former UCLA chancellor and current memer of the Knights commission means he has about as much power as I do regarding Pac 10 expansion. I agree, pointless article

[MplsBison]

For what it's worth:

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf10311/pdf/tab36.pdf

5 - UCLA
8 - Washington
12 - Stanford
19 - Cal
24 - Arizona

25 - Colorado

28 - USC
65 - Wash State
69 - AZ State

72 - Utah

95- OR State
153 - Oregon

[Houndawg]

It's a total hit job that only quotes a single former chancellor with a bug up his butt who makes at best arguable and at worst completely false statements about the academic level of the new members. Saying that Utah isn't on the level of Oregon State or Arizona State is ridiculous. If they want to pretend to be the Ivy League, that's great, but to do that they should step aside and quit being one of the two powers most responsible for keeping the BCS monopoly alive.

Isn't Utah the site of Pons and Fleischman and the "cold fusion" debacle?

[Tod]

Is this Jeapordy? If you're asking, don't you already know?

At least they're trying. Could be worse, could be Liberty U questioning evolution.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Being a former UCLA chancellor and current memer of the Knights commission means he has about as much power as I do regarding Pac 10 expansion. I agree, pointless article

This is not true. Believe me, the Pac Twelve do NOT want the Knight commission sic-ed on them - and to have pointed out facts like the fact that the current Pac Twelve commish is taking chartered flights out east to try to plead the east coast media to cover them better. Nobody wants to be sent up as the symbol of what's wrong with all of collegiate athletics, and Larry Scott is getting close to Delany territory.

I agree with you guys in principle that alone, one former UCLA chancellor is not going to reverse an expansion snowball that's been rolling for the last two months. But with the legal clout of the Knight commission behind it, it is quite possible that a lawsuit or congressional action might be brewing to put a stop to this. I don't believe this is just a case of sour grapes.

[Waco Kid]

I don't see where there is any ground for them stand on for a lawsuit. If the members of the PAC 10 voted on and approved the addition of Colorado and Utah, and the papers have been signed it is a done deal.

[MplsBison]

This is not true. Believe me, the Pac Twelve do NOT want the Knight commission sic-ed on them - and to have pointed out facts like the fact that the current Pac Twelve commish is taking chartered flights out east to try to plead the east coast media to cover them better. Nobody wants to be sent up as the symbol of what's wrong with all of collegiate athletics, and Larry Scott is getting close to Delany territory.

I agree with you guys in principle that alone, one former UCLA chancellor is not going to reverse an expansion snowball that's been rolling for the last two months. But with the legal clout of the Knight commission behind it, it is quite possible that a lawsuit or congressional action might be brewing to put a stop to this. I don't believe this is just a case of sour grapes.

Lawsuit for what? You're kidding?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't see where there is any ground for them stand on for a lawsuit. If the members of the PAC 10 voted on and approved the addition of Colorado and Utah, and the papers have been signed it is a done deal.

There could very well be a lawsuit - challenging the tax-exempt status of Pac-Ten collegiate athletic departments. Exhibit A would be the fact that the Big Ten and Pac Ten, when pursuing expansion, attempted to do so for reasons not motivated at all by any academic mission. I'm sure Larry Scott's charter flight to New York City would feature prominently, as would expansion with two schools that don't have a lot to do with academics and a lot more to do with TV markets.

One former UCLA chancellor won't bring the lawsuit. But the Knight commission might.

[MplsBison]

There could very well be a lawsuit - challenging the tax-exempt status of Pac-Ten collegiate athletic departments. Exhibit A would be the fact that the Big Ten and Pac Ten, when pursuing expansion, attempted to do so for reasons not motivated at all by any academic mission. I'm sure Larry Scott's charter flight to New York City would feature prominently, as would expansion with two schools that don't have a lot to do with academics and a lot more to do with TV markets.

Well maybe all NCAA schools should pay taxes on revenue greater than expenses.

So what? What does that have to do with stopping Utah and Colorado from joining?

[greenG]

There could very well be a lawsuit - challenging the tax-exempt status of Pac-Ten collegiate athletic departments. Exhibit A would be the fact that the Big Ten and Pac Ten, when pursuing expansion, attempted to do so for reasons not motivated at all by any academic mission. I'm sure Larry Scott's charter flight to New York City would feature prominently, as would expansion with two schools that don't have a lot to do with academics and a lot more to do with TV markets.

One former UCLA chancellor won't bring the lawsuit. But the Knight commission might.

A lawsuit bases on your premise is DOA as far as the Big Ten is concerned. The Big Ten is also an association of academic institutions and runs the Committee on Institutional Cooperation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_on_Institutional_Cooperation), the nation's "premier higher education consortium of top-tier research institutions, including the Big Ten Conference members and the University of Chicago". The CIC administers $6,000,000,000 in research funds for its members. Nebraska's selection was also guided by its status as "a top-notch public institution" and the fact that UNL is a major research university and it could effectively use the CIC research money that would flow to UNL after their admission in 2011.

http://www.cic.net/Home/NewsAndPubs/News/Nebraska/Announcement.aspx

[superman7515]

I don't see where there is any ground for them stand on for a lawsuit. If the members of the PAC 10 voted on and approved the addition of Colorado and Utah, and the papers have been signed it is a done deal.

The papers have not been signed and the voting has not been completed that is needed before one or both schools are allowed in. The presidents and chancellors of the current Pac 10 schools still have to vote to allow them in and as of yet, they have not done that.

[Dane96]

LFN, stop playing lawyer; There is no antitrust violation here (as you suggest) by the Pac-10/Big-10.

Please tell me what legal/congressional clout the Knight Commission has. Last I looked, they are not a Congressional Agency, nor do they promulgate laws. They are an independent agency that gives the NCAA and others "consulting" information to better the way athletics are run.

They are a jacked up, sport-centric, version of Deloitte, Bain, Accenture, etc. They hold perceived political/legal clout at best. Good luck to the NCAA or any Congressional Panel that stopped a private organization (the PAC-10 is that) from making business decisions.

Bottom line-- the Knight Commission is a frickin think-tank...that's all. They have as much clout as the Brookings Institution.

As for the former UCLA Chancellor...someone should wake up and tell him how good the medical, legal, agriculture and business schools are at Colorado. What a baffoon.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

They are a jacked up, sport-centric, version of Deloitte, Bain, Accenture, etc. They hold perceived political/legal clout at best. Good luck to the NCAA or any Congressional Panel that stopped a private organization (the PAC-10 is that) from making business decisions.

I am *hardly* a legal expert, nor do I claim to be. But even you have to admit that the Pac Ten is not just any old "private organization". They're a group of supposedly not-for-profit institutions whose main mission is to educate kids. How does bagging Utah and Colorado improve that mission? Certainly none of the discussion in the press involved the advantages of adding Colorado's business school or Utah's fusion labs to joint Pac-Ten research projects, and it's not like Scott even shrouded this in the tiniest bit of academic synergy. There was an awful lot of discussion about creating a superconference, a TV network, etc. with which the conference would make (supposedly) boatloads of (tax-free) cash - but not a sentence on academic improvement.

I'm also sure there are a lot of "consultants" that hold "perceived" legal clout on K Street in Washington, too, incidentally. "Consulting" has a funny way of becoming NCAA action and sometimes legal action. I'm surprised, Dane96, I need to tell you this.

[Dane96]

No....I would not admit that the Pac Ten is "not just any old 'private organization'. They are exactly that. They may or may not have tax exempt status however, that has no bearing on whether they are a private or public entity.

Your use of not-for-profit institution in this argument is as dangerous (and misguided) as the "loosely" defined reasoning that forms the basis of the term's use by schools and other institutions. Universities profit off of themsleves whether public or private and raise funds to redistribute to the owner (whether it is a State educational system or to the endowments of schools both private and public). They may not pay dividends...but they sure as heck profit.

What you are suggesting would put the ENTIRE tax exempt status of Universities, both public and private, into repute. There is no way, in the name of public policy, any entity including Congress, the Knight Commission or the judiciary, would think of touching such an entrenched concept as tax exemptions for Universities. Still, even brought into scrutiny, it is a red herring argument based on the simple fact that the Knight Commision had one big bad influential "white paper"...and is not this overlord it seems you are suggesting they are.

I still dont see your legal argument at all...and the article sounds like sour grapes of the writer and one lone person on a committee. I wish the Chancellor good luck trying to force a private group's business decision. The precedent it would set would ripple down through non-athletic circles. He sure can make suggestions...but force a decision...uh uh.

Show me the federal law that requires a University to forge any business interests--athletic or otherwise--based on ONLY a black letter definion of "academic pursuits"; Academics can be defined in many ways. Schools are in the business of keeping their doors open; if athletics can help pad the coffers...so be it. The point you, the writer and the former Chancellor are missing is that the Knight commission can make suggestions...and that is it. If you are going to tell me that they have some other level of de facto influence, I am going to argue it would be they...and not the Universities...that Congress would be likely investigate for many things, including violation of the Commerce Clause, tortious interference of contract, extortion, etc.

That is why this guy is e-mailing and "suggesting" to the schools that this should not be signed as opposed to "DEMANDING" such action. The NCAA is a semi-voluntary organization that ONLY exists because of its members. It is not a per se Federally supported group and that is exactly why one of the few ways Congress could ever regulate action by them would be based on antitrust arguments, i.e. television contracts and tax exemption.

And yes, I know about lobbyists and their mission. But lobbyists work to influence the changing of laws or positions; there has to be something they can grasp onto as a point of argument that has enforcement teeth. It is the group being lobbied that has to enforce/implement the change. Give me the $$$ of 10 schools versus one commisison and you tell me who will win the influence battle.

All that said, I am for reforming college athletics...but it will take some crafty work by a group of people...starting with the Universities themselves. This has to be a self-help type deal.

[kperk014]

The BCS is doing it's best to protect their private club. It's worst than Wall Street, Big Oil, Cable Companies and the Drug Cartels all wrapped up into one.

That's why I said in an earlier post that just because you are D1A doesn't mean you are FBS. If you aren't in an FBS-automatic qualifier conference, you're just 1A in the eyes of big boys.

[Chad4Life]

I'm just curious what this chancellor did in his 30 years at UCLA to rein in the monstrosity known now as FBS football (and DI basketball as well?) Maybe I would take him more seriously if I didn't know that Sam Gilbert was running loose in the early part of his career, that Larry Brown was hired during the middle of the career, and that Jim Harrick closed out the career. And who knows what was happening in the football program?

Just a grumpy old man complaining to another grumpy old man.