Big East Football discusses Nova Option

[Lehigh Football Nation]

...of Coach Talley and the football team, maybe, but not VU... As a recent graduate, I'd say it's attitudes like yours that hurt the perception of the football team on campus. They're jealous of the attention basketball players get and show it. They refuse to support the basketball team in anyway...

Let me get this straight. You're saying of this Villanova program and coach Talley, that they are "jealous of the attention basketball players get and show it"? The same Andy Talley who, not even a moment after being handed the FCS national championship trophy, said, "Now it's time for the basketball team to get theirs", amid raucous cheers from the rest of the team?

Yeah, they really showed that jealousy and lack of support, there.

[jlcharles]

There is no way you a supporter of Villanova University with a comment like that.

...of Coach Talley and the football team, maybe, but not VU. Actually, not even, because if you had any realistic perception of Villanova you'd realize that if basketball got the boot from the BE, then the impact on football would be astronomical, included much more limited funding and potentially the death penalty...which in all honesty, wouldn't be all that difficult to justify to people.

As a recent graduate, I'd say it's attitudes like yours that hurt the perception of the football team on campus. They're jealous of the attention basketball players get and show it. They refuse to support the basketball team in anyway...yet don't realize the only reason they're given the opportunity to compete at a high level is because the basketball program keeps the athletic department afloat. I'm not saying this is true for ALL football players -- I know many who are great supporters are friends of bball. However, this sentiment does exist and it only results in a negative perception of them.

My issue isn't with the University, although, the way they handle football leaves a lot to be desired. (They've continually made attending football games more and more frustrating with the way they handle the tailgating and their ridiculously strict event staff. They probably want to make people stop showing up altogether so they can scrap the program.)

My issue is with the alumni and their "We're too good for this" attitude. And you have made my point with the way you talked down about the Patriot League.

[NovaWildcat]

Let me get this straight. You're saying of this Villanova program and coach Talley, that they are "jealous of the attention basketball players get and show it"? The same Andy Talley who, not even a moment after being handed the FCS national championship trophy, said, "Now it's time for the basketball team to get theirs", amid raucous cheers from the rest of the team?

Yeah, they really showed that jealousy and lack of support, there.

Never said Coach Talley shows anything but his full support. If anything, he understands more than anyone how crutial Villanova basketball is to Villanova football.

I was saying many players really dislike the basketball program because of a jealousy factor - and it leads to their own negative perception around campus. Any student would be able to verify that for you. I'm assuming you did not go to VU.

jlcharles - I am not debating whether or not the handling of the fball team leaves a lot to be desired - of course that is true. If you have an issue with the elist attitude of us thinking we belong to play with the top dogs athletically, then I'm sorry you feel that way but the reality of the situation is that alumni just want to position ourselves to make Villanova the best it possibily can be with regards to academics and athletics.

There is nothing wrong with the Patriot League. It is good for what it is. It combines small, reputable, academically strong schools in athletics. Villanova has no place in that conference. Just the facts.

[henfan]

Over the weekend, I heard a rumor from a VU alum that a straw poll taken last week among VU decision makers was not favorable for FB reclassification. Any insight from VU folks here?

[jlcharles]

Never said Coach Talley shows anything but his full support. If anything, he understands more than anyone how crutial Villanova basketball is to Villanova football.

I was saying many players really dislike the basketball program because of a jealousy factor - and it leads to their own negative perception around campus. Any student would be able to verify that for you. I'm assuming you did not go to VU.

jlcharles - I am not debating whether or not the handling of the fball team leaves a lot to be desired - of course that is true. If you have an issue with the elist attitude of us thinking we belong to play with the top dogs athletically, then I'm sorry you feel that way but the reality of the situation is that alumni just want to position ourselves to make Villanova the best it possibily can be with regards to academics and athletics.

There is nothing wrong with the Patriot League. It is good for what it is. It combines small, reputable, academically strong schools in athletics. Villanova has no place in that conference. Just the facts.

That's a perfect description of Villanova.

[RookieWill]

Over the weekend, I heard a rumor from a VU alum that a straw poll taken last week among VU decision makers was not favorable for FB reclassification. Any insight from VU folks here?

Have heard that rumor as well - I would say for those people at Nova that are pro-upgrade - more and more of the "scuttlebutt" is that the move won't happen

[NovaWildcat]

That's a perfect description of Villanova.

Then let me modify that statement.

It combines small, reputable, academically strong schools...that play a low level of collegiate athletics.

Happy? Still a perfect description for Villanova?

[Go...gate]

Then let me modify that statement.

It combines small, reputable, academically strong schools...that play a low level of collegiate athletics.

Happy? Still a perfect description for Villanova?

Actually, you're talking abput the NESCAC. NOBODY in Division I is at a low level of collegiate athletics.

[bluehenbillk]

The rumors regarding VU seem to swing - at first it looked really good this was going to happen - now the rumors are the opposite. When are they supposed to decide? I've heard February, I've heard April, when is D-day??

[Bossanova]

April is D- Day. Would say odds are 50-50 right now.

[Doc QB]

The pros and cons of 'Nova jumping to BE have been discussed a ton...would anyone want to lend some thoughts on the schools that have done it, and discuss details such as pre-jump attendance, won-loss records, playoff successes (or not), pro prospects, etc and where the are now. Relevant, maybe not terribly so, but interesting none the less.

UConn, Idaho, Boise State, Idaho come to mind for me. Grade them out, see if you agree:

As for UConn, their switch to BE is interesting for a few reasons as it relates to 'Nova. Both have big hoops aspirations and solid national programs. But with UConn being a state school, and the flagship for the state of Conn, I think the similiarities may end there. UConn really did not have the football program 'Nova has today but made it work. We played 'em up there when I was at LU and spanked them pretty good that year (1991). Their playoff success was very limited as compared to 'Nova which has much better playoff presence, success, Nat'l champ trophy. There attendance was pretty decent, though, much better than 'Nova has ever enjoyed. State school, private school. Enrollment sizes differ, obviously. And, UConn made an off campus venue work, but had bigger student body population, state support, brand new stadium. They made it work. Grade: B+

Idaho is different animal. Had great playoff successes and Big Sky titles. Has limited room for stadium expansion given constraints of Kibbie Dome 16000 seats. Has not achieved anywhere near success as Boise State. Grade: D

Boise State: Grade A+

Marshall, had SoCon great years, titles, national crowns, pro players, new stadium, great attendance, started off well...but has slumped some and had some FBS conference switching. Grade C.

Relevant? Curious as to other's opinions and if any of this relates, and what parts may be prognostic in anyway to 'Nova moving.

[Mr. C]

April is D- Day. Would say odds are 50-50 right now.
My sources say a decision will be made some time in January. Your assessment of 50-50 odds is right on the mark. There are still a lot of infrastructure things standing in the way of this happening. Villanova administrators are also somewhat scared of the money that would have to be spent to pull this off.

[Mr. C]

In regards to the posts of JCharles. Those are some of the most idiotic things I've ever seen posted here. Your attacks on the AD, in particular, are ridiculous. Also, the Big East isn't about to kick Villanova out of the conference, if the Wildcats decide not to sponsor Big East football. Your posts show very little understanding of what is going on out on the Main Line.

Just because someone went to school at Villanova doesn't mean they are in the know.

[NovaWildcat]

Just because someone went to school at Villanova doesn't mean they are in the know.

True. But campus culture and attitude is playing a LARGE part in this decision. Rest assured, it's not just about finances (which is the University's "public" stance on the issue). It is about finances, to an extent. There is an ideology at Villanova that starts at the top of the administration -- one of conservatism and a narrow-academic focus, that needs to be broken. A move up to FBS is more than just making the dollars work, it's a complete overhaul of the University from admissions, the athletic department, the development office to the adminsitration itself. While having attended Villanova does not mean you are the know, it does help provide an understanding of the University functions on a daily basis.

and yes, jcharles is way off base here.

[Mr. C]

True. But campus culture and attitude is playing a LARGE part in this decision. Rest assured, it's not just about finances (which is the University's "public" stance on the issue). It is about finances, to an extent. There is an ideology at Villanova that starts at the top of the administration -- one of conservatism and a narrow-academic focus, that needs to be broken. A move up to FBS is more than just making the dollars work, it's a complete overhaul of the University from admissions, the athletic department, the development office to the adminsitration itself. While having attended Villanova does not mean you are the know, it does help provide an understanding of the University functions on a daily basis.

and yes, jcharles is way off base here.

You make some good points in this excellent post. Understanding the Villanova culture is key to understanding the decision-making process. I have many friends in key positions at Villanova and discussed this subject with one of the key players on Friday over a cup of hot cocoa. I don't think the Villanova ideology will change for this decision. If the decision is yes to the Big East for football, everyone else will just have to adapt to Villanova's way of doing business. I've had an insight to how things are done at Villanova since my days working closely with Villanova Prep, the Augustinian's preparatory school in Ojai, CA. Now that I live in Philly, I've had a chance to see how things work with their university.

One of the reasons that Andy Talley has been so successful for so long at VU is that he has learned the fine art of adapting to the way Villanova does business.

[NovaWildcat]

Exactly - and "the Villanova way of doing business" is why a decision hasn't already been made yet. That sounds crazy to outsiders but it's the truth. Villanova truly is at a crossroad's right now academically and athletically - it has the chance to position itself nationally with some of the top private schools in the country. That sounds like an overstatement but there's no reason that VU isn't the equivalent of BC/Wake - peer schools. Of course, that comes with great risk...however the reward (in my opinion) is almost too good to take a shot at. There are many people at the university who legitimately think that it is not a risk Villanova should take.

An aside: Have a good friend from Ojai - played football at Villanova Prep - I had no idea 8-on-8 organized football existed prior to meeting him.

[Go...gate]

True. But campus culture and attitude is playing a LARGE part in this decision. Rest assured, it's not just about finances (which is the University's "public" stance on the issue). It is about finances, to an extent. There is an ideology at Villanova that starts at the top of the administration -- one of conservatism and a narrow-academic focus, that needs to be broken. A move up to FBS is more than just making the dollars work, it's a complete overhaul of the University from admissions, the athletic department, the development office to the adminsitration itself. While having attended Villanova does not mean you are the know, it does help provide an understanding of the University functions on a daily basis.

and yes, jcharles is way off base here.

Sounds a lot like the Patriot and Ivy Leagues.

[NovaWildcat]

Sounds a lot like the Patriot and Ivy Leagues.

No doubt about it.

However, the difference is that much of Villanova's academic reputation has spiked in large part to its athletic programs (basketball). So, while many at Villanova want to "stay true to its academic core" they fail to realize that much of our academic rise is due to athletics...like BC, and to a lesser extent, Notre Dame and Gtown.

[GannonFan]

No doubt about it.

However, the difference is that much of Villanova's academic reputation has spiked in large part to its athletic programs (basketball). So, while many at Villanova want to "stay true to its academic core" they fail to realize that much of our academic rise is due to athletics...like BC, and to a lesser extent, Notre Dame and Gtown.

Not to be a devil's advocate here, but that's a pretty specious assumption. It first of all assumes that prior to nova having a good academic reputation that you had a bad basketball team, and nova's had good basketball teams going back to the '50s so it begs the question of when this "academic rise" happened and if it's recent, why did it lag versus the quality of the basketball program if they are so tied together?

And really, considering that Merrimack College shares professors (both being Augustinian) with villanova and is also considered a good academic institution, how do you explain their academic rise considering they have no national basketball program?

I think people vastly overrate the tie in between the quality of the academics and the athletics. The Flutie Effect is far from established science.

[Mr. C]

Exactly - and "the Villanova way of doing business" is why a decision hasn't already been made yet. That sounds crazy to outsiders but it's the truth. Villanova truly is at a crossroad's right now academically and athletically - it has the chance to position itself nationally with some of the top private schools in the country. That sounds like an overstatement but there's no reason that VU isn't the equivalent of BC/Wake - peer schools. Of course, that comes with great risk...however the reward (in my opinion) is almost too good to take a shot at. There are many people at the university who legitimately think that it is not a risk Villanova should take.

An aside: Have a good friend from Ojai - played football at Villanova Prep - I had no idea 8-on-8 organized football existed prior to meeting him.

Villanova Prep had DROPPED football (just like Villanova University) when I was the sports editor there from 1986-91. They brought it back a few years ago. Some interesting alums graduated from there, including former Reagan Cabinet member William Clark (who I had the chance to interview). Didn't know they were playing eight-man football now. It would be fun if Andy Talley got a player from there some day.

[colorless raider]

No doubt about it.

However, the difference is that much of Villanova's academic reputation has spiked in large part to its athletic programs (basketball). So, while many at Villanova want to "stay true to its academic core" they fail to realize that much of our academic rise is due to athletics...like BC, and to a lesser extent, Notre Dame and Gtown.

Totally agree. BC did it with Flutie, Georgetown with Ewing. I hope the Patriot faculties can comprehend that athletics can leverage a school's standing.

[jlcharles]

In regards to the posts of JCharles. Those are some of the most idiotic things I've ever seen posted here. Your attacks on the AD, in particular, are ridiculous. Also, the Big East isn't about to kick Villanova out of the conference, if the Wildcats decide not to sponsor Big East football. Your posts show very little understanding of what is going on out on the Main Line.

Just because someone went to school at Villanova doesn't mean they are in the know.

Please, what did I say that was false about Nicastro? He and the rest of the athletic department have mishandled the football team. He is barely competent at handling the basketball team.

I never claimed that the Big East was definitely going to throw us out. But, to deny that moving the football team up to FBS is all about basketball and protecting the basketball team is naive. The school and athletic department have shown that they don't care one bit about football. With all of the upheaval and shifting of conferences, they don't want to be left out if the Big East splits.

[GannonFan]

Totally agree. BC did it with Flutie, Georgetown with Ewing. I hope the Patriot faculties can comprehend that athletics can leverage a school's standing.

That's the thing though - Georgetown was a great academic institution well before Ewing ever played there. Maybe some basketball fans didn't know it, but it was true. The University of Chicago isn't less of an academic institution since they dropped football in the 40's (or whenever they did). Just because some guys on message boards don't know that doesn't make it untrue. The Flutie effect thing was always trumped up - BC had similar jumps in enrollment in the years before Flutie ever got there, and they had even more jumps in improvements years later when the team had 10 losses in a season. Academic standings of universities have little to nothing to do with the stature of the schools athletic programs.

[NovaWildcat]

Academic standings of universities have little to nothing to do with the stature of the schools athletic programs.

Yes, there are great academic schools that don't have athletics. That does not mean that some schools don't NEED athletics. Villanova doesn't have the endowment or rich tradition of the Ivies or say ND/Gtown/Stanford/Duke. It needs other factors, such as athletics, to boost its profile.

Let's put it this way. No one outside the east coast would have any idea what Villanova is if it weren't for its basketball program. We'd be just another St. Joe's/Holy Cross/Fairfield/Loyola (md.). While those are fine schools - they have a very limited national appeal and profile. The athletics is what differentiates us from our peers. Then your appeal starts to grow and you become more well-known/popular/selective.

Your BC point is very flawed. It has nothing to do with a jump in ENROLLMENT! It has everything to do with jump in APPLICATIONS! The key is to become more selective and desired. Then you bring in a higher quality of student, which boosts your national profile. I don't have the numbers but I'm fairly certain that the post-Flutie years saw a major increase in BC applications. Just like 85 did for Nova (as did 06 and 09).

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Yes, there are great academic schools that don't have athletics. That does not mean that some schools don't NEED athletics. Villanova doesn't have the endowment or rich tradition of the Ivies or say ND/Gtown/Stanford/Duke. It needs other factors, such as athletics, to boost its profile.

It has nothing to do with a jump in ENROLLMENT! It has everything to do with jump in APPLICATIONS! The key is to become more selective and desired. Then you bring in a higher quality of student, which boosts your national profile. I don't have the numbers but I'm fairly certain that the post-Flutie years saw a major increase in BC applications. Just like 85 did for Nova (as did 06 and 09).

This hits the nail on the head. No one's train of thought goes along the lines of 'Wow, that school just won a national championship, that must mean a degree from there would be more prestigious'. However, for potential students who might have otherwise never heard of Villanova, seeing them on TV in the final 4 in the men's B-ball tourny, or seeing them playing for the FCS title might make them take the time to google the school, read some info on the website, and get hooked enough about what they see to apply. A school with a great athletics program can't entice the top academic talent without already having a solid academic reputation and background, but having a great athletic program can make more people aware of the school so that more potential students get a chance to hear about that great academic reputation.

It also doesn't hurt to have successful athletics because for a lot of potential students successful athletic teams make for a more attractive campus atmosphere.

[NovaWildcat]

A school with a great athletics program can't entice the top academic talent without already having a solid academic reputation and background, but having a great athletic program can make more people aware of the school so that more potential students get a chance to hear about that great academic reputation.


+1. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[superman7515]

Villanova has to weigh many costs of move to Big East football (http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/colleges/villanova/20110212_Villanova_has_to_weigh_many_costs_of_move _to_Big_East_football.html)


Villanova's decision, which should come at its next board of trustees meeting in April, is at its core a financial decision. The school already has paid out over $4 million a year lately to play I-AA football. What's the price tag for I-A?

We have a date again for when we should know something.

[DFW HOYA]

Your BC point is very flawed. It has nothing to do with a jump in ENROLLMENT! It has everything to do with jump in APPLICATIONS! The key is to become more selective and desired. Then you bring in a higher quality of student, which boosts your national profile. I don't have the numbers but I'm fairly certain that the post-Flutie years saw a major increase in BC applications. Just like 85 did for Nova (as did 06 and 09).

You're missing one important point. It's not APPLICATIONS, it's YIELD (the number of accepted students that enroll).

Boston College gets nearly twice--that's right, twice--the applications Georgetown gets, roughly 34,000 to 18,000. Why? Because BC pushes the Common Application as a way to boost its numbers and Georgetown is one of only two Top 25 schools that do not use it. (Georgetown's argument is that the Common App inflates numbers with candidates that aren't going to enroll anyway.)

And the results?

Boston College's admit rate is 26% but it yields just 26% of those admits to come to BC.
Georgetown's admit rate is 18% and it yields 46% to enroll to Georgetown.

Villanova could get its numbers to BC-size proportions but if it's yield remains high, what's the point?

And FWIW, Patrick Ewing did not drive Georgetown applications to go up. That began three years earlier in 1978 when Georgetown committed to 100% need blind admissions (i.e, applicants are accepted regardless of their ability to pay). Only 12 I-AA schools practice this prestigious but expensive form of admissions: the Ivies, Georgetown, Richmond, Holy Cross, and Davidson.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The article shares some fascinating verification to rumors that have been flying around - and some interesting assumptions.


Villanova's plans involve playing at PPL Park in Chester. There are no plans to upgrade Villanova Stadium. However, in addition to adding scholarships and raising coaching salaries, a state-of-the-art football training facility needs to be built. Title IX issues have to be addressed. Money has to be raised.

That means they'd be renting... pretty far away from the Main Line... and their top attendance is not going to be that high.


A consulting firm hired by Villanova also has looked at potential attendance. Villanova draws 7,000 or 8,000 for a strong I-AA team. Can the Wildcats double or almost triple that in the Big East playing at PPL? Surveys have been done working with different price points. The results, according to one Villanova source, were "pretty positive . . . there is a substantive demand for this product." By that, the source said, there is probably "sufficient interest among our core constituents" to remove attendance as an area of concern.

I do not share their optimism.


This bears repeating: At its heart, this isn't a football decision. Nobody is trying to turn it into a "sky is falling" argument but protecting Villanova basketball as a national brand - making sure that brand isn't marginalized - is never far from anybody's thoughts. The Big East schools that play I-A football are best positioned for future basketball success. They have more success now.

But what is that basketball brand worth to Villanova? Not just Villanova athletics, but Villanova as a university. (Quick aside: This week, it's worth more than the Villanova Law School brand).

"I guess it's up to them, whether protecting the Villanova basketball brand is worth the cost of football," said Matthew Denhart of the Center for College Affordability. "Just purely the cost-benefit of just looking at football, it would not pass that test."

Overall, this doesn't seem like an article gung-ho on Villanova entering Big East football. There's a lot of discussion about costs, and even the rosy folks that think Villanova will sell out PPL park are worried about costs and endowment. I have to think this is still trending against Villanova making the jump, IMO.

[DFW HOYA]

Overall, this doesn't seem like an article gung-ho on Villanova entering Big East football. There's a lot of discussion about costs, and even the rosy folks that think Villanova will sell out PPL park are worried about costs and endowment. I have to think this is still trending against Villanova making the jump, IMO.

With 18,000 seats, there are more than enough fans coming from Rutgers, WV, Pitt, UConn, and Syracuse to sell out PPL Park. And realistically, Villanova may end up playing almost all their non-conference games on the road anyway; that is, unless they're playing Fordham...

[superman7515]

A consulting firm hired by Villanova also has looked at potential attendance. Villanova draws 7,000 or 8,000 for a strong I-AA team. Can the Wildcats double or almost triple that in the Big East playing at PPL? Surveys have been done working with different price points. The results, according to one Villanova source, were "pretty positive . . . there is a substantive demand for this product." By that, the source said, there is probably "sufficient interest among our core constituents" to remove attendance as an area of concern.


I do not share their optimism.

Their "core constituents" is only 7,000-8,000 people, unless they are saying that their core doesn't bother to show up now but they assume they will if they make the move. Seems a bit presumptious.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

With 18,000 seats, there are more than enough fans coming from Rutgers, WV, Pitt, UConn, and Syracuse to sell out PPL Park. And realistically, Villanova may end up playing almost all their non-conference games on the road anyway; that is, unless they're playing Fordham...

But 18,000 is really low in terms of attendance. Well, maybe not for a MAC game, but for the Big East, which thinks of itself as a big-time conference, that's pretty poor.

[superman7515]

Big East average attendance - 45,028 (not including the soon to join TCU)

Cincinnati - 35,067
Connecticut - 38,248
Louisville - 50,648
Pittsburgh - 52,165
Rutgers - 46,195
South Florida - 40,849
Syracuse - 40,064
Texas Christian - 42,466
West Virginia - 56,325

2010 NCAA DIVISION I FBS TEAM-BY-TEAM ATTENDANCE (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/d47a560045aad7aab88ffc9080650d5b/2010_Attendance.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=d47a560045aad7aab88ffc9080650d5b)

[HailSzczur]

I agree that it is quite the assumption to make. The team does have a respectable core, but not nearly enough to compete with the above stated numbers. Assuming full support, best case senario, we could maybe get the core up to about the 15,000 range eventually, which I know is very presumptious on my part. Thats not even half of others attendance.......

To me the numbers say stay, but for some reason I just have this gut feeling that in April I will here that we are moving up. There has been alot of movement in the athletic department, especially with basketball, and the school seems to keep wanting to increase exposure and image. The best expamle is this weekend we hosted ESPN's State Farm College Gameday in the Pavilion. Since about 2007/2008 the football team seems to have found their traction as well.

[GannonFan]

The article was good in touching on the one big point - nova alums don't really support the university very well. And it's hard to see how getting football will change that. nova basketball draws well only when they are a national power. Look at the Lappas years (mid to late 90's) and they didn't always sell out the Pavillion (capacity 6500). And while they've had some good runs this decade and have gotten big crowds into the South Philly arena (always changing names so I'll go with that moniker), look at attendance this year - nova's good, but not great (still top 20, but nearer the 20 than the 1) and attendance in South Philly has only averaged 16k so far (not including the UD game that was there - only the big powers in basketball), and hasn't broken 20k once this year. And that's with a slate of Louisville, Maryland, Georgetown, and West Virginia (3 of whom would apparently be the big football draws in the future). I know they pooh pooh the attendance angle, but nova football isn't going to be a national power at the FBS level, so you have to question how attendance will fare and what impact that will have on the program as they move forward. It seems a lot like the Temple method of playing in the Big East - not be very good, but take as much money from the conference as possible. For me, the big question will be whether this results in the program being ended again like it was in the early 80's - there's plenty of similarities to why nova failed then as to how it could fail once again. But hey, they lose gobs of money now, so potentially losing just a little more to having the chance to lose a little less if they do make the move might be okay. I personally think they move, but success is far, far from certain.

[HailSzczur]

that was probably one of better summaries I have read on the matter. I remember going to games during the lapas era where you could walk in minutes before game time and sit front row of the student section. Its even worse in football. With sucess the basketball team has attracted a very good fan base. The football team won the National Championship, you really cant get more sucessful then that. If people wont come to watch the makings of a potential FCS power house, they certainly wont come to watch us have our asses handed to us by the Big East

[MplsBison]

that was probably one of better summaries I have read on the matter. I remember going to games during the lapas era where you could walk in minutes before game time and sit front row of the student section. Its even worse in football. With sucess the basketball team has attracted a very good fan base. The football team won the National Championship, you really cant get more sucessful then that. If people wont come to watch the makings of a potential FCS power house, they certainly wont come to watch us have our asses handed to us by the Big East

You can't get more successful than the FCS national championship? Dude, come on.

Yeah...that must be why they're packing them in on top of each other in Eastern Washington...what's the avg attendance up to these days? 5k?