Patriot League Scholarships?

[LUHawker]

With the PL's media day today, the SportsNetwork weighed in:
http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=sportsnetwork&page=cfoot2/news/newstest.aspx?id=4331686


A couple of interesting tidbits in here:
Confirmation that Colgate and Lehigh are in favor; Georgetown is against
Surprisingly, Bucknell and HC are "open" to it, while Lafayette is a wildcard

More concerning to me, is the comment that American, Navy and Army get votes. I didn't think they were entitled to vote. I can't imagine that American would vote no, but could potentially see the Academies voting against, hoping to quell any calls for them to join the PL. Doubt that would happen, but a potential problem. I wonder if they can abstain?

Timing for a vote is December.

Other big comment is that if they are implemented, they would be capped at a number far below the max of 63. I hope it isn't too far below.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I can't see Army or Navy voting against scholarships. It would open up more scheduling opportunities that count towards their bowl eligibility.

Hopefully the league does enough to keep Fordham happy so they can stay. That way the league no longer needs Georgetown. It's obvious the Hoyas have zero interest in fielding a competitive FCS program and are nothing more than dead weight.

[Go...gate]

Why would Army or Navy vote against? They are inalterably committed to FBS. It may make their scheduling a little easier as well.

American will vote for - they have no reason not to.

[LUHawker]

I can't see Army or Navy voting against scholarships. It would open up more scheduling opportunities that count towards their bowl eligibility.

Hopefully the league does enough to keep Fordham happy so they can stay. That way the league no longer needs Georgetown. It's obvious the Hoyas have zero interest in fielding a competitive FCS program and are nothing more than dead weight.

While not opining on G'town's interest ini fielding a competitive team, it makes a lot more sense to keep the competitive team that wants to improve the league than the anchor that wants to hold the league back. Gtown hasn't helped the league since it joined so I think it is folly to go their route.

[Go...gate]

I can't see Army or Navy voting against scholarships. It would open up more scheduling opportunities that count towards their bowl eligibility.

Hopefully the league does enough to keep Fordham happy so they can stay. That way the league no longer needs Georgetown. It's obvious the Hoyas have zero interest in fielding a competitive FCS program and are nothing more than dead weight.

For a decade, I have not felt this way, but I am beginning to believe it is so.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Oh, LUHawker, yet another scholarship thread. And with the "Little Brass Cannon" otherwise taking prominence?

Army, Navy and American are full, all-sports members of the Patriot League. Of course they get a say in this.

Army and Navy have a perfect right to be annoyed - they play FBS football while the rest of us now lag behind; all of us once were preeminent powers in college football. Most current FCS participants were nothing more than wet dreams in the fantasies of their boosters when we collectively dominated the gridirons of this nation's college campuses.

We in the Patriot League are the traditional opponents of Army and Navy; we created the legacy they carry on today. That's why they are today, and remain, full members of our humble little all-sports conference, competing with us in every established sport from lacrosse to baseball to swimming and everything in between.

But for the outworld conscription of institutions having little or no concern with our activity, our entire league, the academies included, would be playing The Game as we always have. I, too, long for the era when the Leopards were the Black Knight's traditional homecoming foe and when those Colgate-Army clashes made national headlines.

But it seems to me that the powers that be now are taking the small steps, albeit gingerly, to make it so once more. We must rise to the level of our brethren - not the other way around.

Let's make it so - but in our humble and reserved fashion keeping in mind the real purpose for which we play these games.



EDIT - note to above: Georgetown is most firmly and indisputably amongst us. Protest its achievement if you may, but never its presence.

[Go...gate]

Oh, LUHawker, yet another scholarship thread. And with the "Little Brass Cannon" otherwise taking prominence?

Army, Navy and American are full, all-sports members of the Patriot League. Of course they get a say in this.

Army and Navy have a perfect right to be annoyed - they play FBS football while the rest of us now lag behind; all of us once were preeminent powers in college football. Most current FCS participants were nothing more than wet dreams in the fantasies of their boosters when we collectively dominated the gridirons of this nation's college campuses.

We in the Patriot League are the traditional opponents of Army and Navy; we created the legacy they carry on today. That's why they are today, and remain, full members of our humble little all-sports conference, competing with us in every established sport from lacrosse to baseball to swimming and everything in between.

But for the outworld conscription of institutions having little or no concern with our activity, our entire league, the academies included, would be playing The Game as we always have. I, too, long for the era when the Leopards were the Black Knight's traditional homecoming foe and when those Colgate-Army clashes made national headlines.

But it seems to me that the powers that be now are taking the small steps, albeit gingerly, to make it so once more. We must rise to the level of our brethren - not the other way around.

Let's make it so - but in our humble and reserved fashion keeping in mind the real purpose for which we play these games.



EDIT - note to above: Georgetown is most firmly and indisputably amongst us. Protest its achievement if you may, but never its presence.


I hope you are correct, Bogus.

[DFW HOYA]

It's obvious the Hoyas have zero interest in fielding a competitive FCS program and are nothing more than dead weight.

Gee, there's a softball...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/08/patriot-league-media-day-scholarships.html


Media Day for the Patriot League was - somewhat surprisingly - a packed affair this year at the Green Pond Country Club. Thirty media members - including a large contingent of radio and local TV media - were on hand to cover their local Patriot League teams.

It's promising to be another very interesting year in the Patriot League - it seems like every year it's a wide-open race, and this year is no exception - but this year's media day was as much about what was being talked about when the microphones were off as well as on.

Hanging heavily in the room was the "S" word - scholarships.

[UNH Fanboi]

That way the league no longer needs Georgetown. It's obvious the Hoyas have zero interest in fielding a competitive FCS program and are nothing more than dead weight.

I think Georgetown, both in terms of academics and football, is an Ivy League wannabe. They seem to share a similar culture and acceptance pool with the second tier Ivies like UPenn and Cornell. Perhaps they could become an independent with a scheduling agreement with the Ivy League (I doubt the Ivy would ever want to break tradition and actually let in another member).

[jimbo65]

Who knows how the vote will go, certainly not I. Assuming that some number of schollies is approved, the members should thank Fordham for forcing the issue. If the league were to approve say 40 schollies, the quality of the PL teams would improve, however, as I understand the FBS regs, games v. the PL would still not count as qualifiers for post season play. This presently is, and will continue to be, a disincentive for the likes of Army, Navy, UConn to schedule PL opponents. If 40 or so is decided upon, my guess is Fordham moves on, though I no not where. Personally, other than a numeric difference between 40-63, what is the point of doing the move halfheartedly. No one is 1/3 virgin. Either you are or you aren't. I enjoy the games v. the PL teams and hope they continue. Unfortunately, that may not happen.

[carney2]

A comment on the Lafayette site stated that Tavani told a gathering that Lafayette would vote "No" for financial reasons, but would go along with the League decision. No confirmation of this, but there is an alumni gathering next week on the eve of the beginning of preseason practice.

[DFW HOYA]

A comment on the Lafayette site stated that Tavani told a gathering that Lafayette would vote "No" for financial reasons, but would go along with the League decision. No confirmation of this, but there is an alumni gathering next week on the eve of the beginning of preseason practice.


That raises a worst-case scenario as far as this conversation goes. With Army, Navy, and American in the voting, youu could get this outcome:

Yes: Fordham, Lehigh, Colgate
Yes (read=going along): Bucknell, Holy Cross
No: Georgetown, American, USMA amd USNA (they don't want to add PL teams to its schedules nor introduce the possibility that they could play "down" at some future point).

A "no" vote from Lafayette becomes a 5-5 tie...stalemate.

[Franks Tanks]

That raises a worst-case scenario as far as this conversation goes. With Army, Navy, and American in the voting, youu could get this outcome:

Yes: Fordham, Lehigh, Colgate
Yes (read=going along): Bucknell, Holy Cross
No: Georgetown, American, USMA amd USNA (they don't want to add PL teams to its schedules nor introduce the possibility that they could play "down" at some future point).

A "no" vote from Lafayette becomes a 5-5 tie...stalemate.

Who actually gets votes in this thing?

All all 10 full and FB associate members?

[Ken_Z]

media day has spurred a number of articles on the scholarship issue. unfortunately many of them have factual errors and/or seem to be based on common wisdom (like what one gets reading this board). the attached article (while having some factual errors) actually went to a source in the know, John Hardt, Bucknell AD, and provides some real insight on the thought process the "on the fence schools" are undr going right now.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/yb/148227670

[Lehigh Football Nation]

media day has spurred a number of articles on the scholarship issue. unfortunately many of them have factual errors and/or seem to be based on common wisdom (like what one gets reading this board). the attached article (while having some factual errors) actually went to a source in the know, John Hardt, Bucknell AD, and provides some real insight on the thought process the "on the fence schools" are undr going right now.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/yb/148227670

Great article Ken. I did notice too how some of the "conventional wisdom" snuck into the Sports Network's piece on this as fact. I'll just put it out there: the breakdown of "yea's" and "nay's" that he quotes in the article is not, repeat not, my understanding of the actual breakdown.

[carney2]

The Sports network piece says that American, Army and Navy get votes in this. Apparently it is being accepted as gospel on this board. Is it true?

If yes, why does everyone assume that the 3 will vote "No?" The "logic" for this is tenuous at best. Abstentions from all three would make the most sense.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Sports network piece says that American, Army and Navy get votes in this. Apparently it is being accepted as gospel on this board. Is it true?

If yes, why does everyone assume that the 3 will vote "No?" The "logic" for this is tenuous at best. Abstentions from all three would make the most sense.

I will try to dig up an audio interview I had on this subject, I think from last year. I do know that Army, Navy and American have "input" and votes (my recollection) on the matter.

But I agree - why would they be assumed to be "No" votes? Army and Navy's FBS designation is completely unaffected by the FCS schools' movement on scholarships, and they will continue to be able to accept or deny scheduling of any Patriot League school on their schedule. As for American, they're a basketball school and the conference's FCS affiliation affects them not at all. If anything, they might get a competitive advantage.

[UNH Fanboi]

I will try to dig up an audio interview I had on this subject, I think from last year. I do know that Army, Navy and American have "input" and votes (my recollection) on the matter.

But I agree - why would they be assumed to be "No" votes? Army and Navy's FBS designation is completely unaffected by the FCS schools' movement on scholarships, and they will continue to be able to accept or deny scheduling of any Patriot League school on their schedule. As for American, they're a basketball school and the conference's FCS affiliation affects them not at all. If anything, they might get a competitive advantage.

I agree. I don't see why they would vote no. The scholarships would cost them nothing and slightly raise the league's profile by making them more competitive in football.

[Ken_Z]

i still believe Army and Navy will vote yes (and presumably American as well) on the basis that long term stengthening (perhaps even survival) of the league and its brand as a whole is best accomplished by that vote. the possible counter to this logic is that perhaps short term strains resulting from this would be too great to overcome. way i see it, it is in their best self interest to vote yes.

[CrusaderBob]

WRT who gets a vote, I thought American, Army & Navy did not vote. After reading the Sports Network piece on media day which said they did get a vote, I re-read the PL Policies and Procedures Manual. Here's what I think is relavent. All emphasis below is mine.

Prohibition of Merit Scholarships in FB is an Operational Bylaw. According to the PL P&P Manual


ARTICLE XI - AMENDMENTS TO OPERATIONAL BYLAWS

3. Voting
Amendments to the Operational bylaws must be adopted by a majority vote of all member institutions, not only those present at a meeting of the Council of Presidents.

And in the case of Associate Members


7. Associate Membership

D. Associate members shall designate appropriate representatives as required by the League Code to attend and participate in the discussions of the Council of Presidents, Policy Committee and Committee of Directors of Athletics. Such representatives, however, will participate in an ex-officio capacity without entitlement to vote, except with respect to those matters which concern the sport(s) for which the institution was granted the status of associate membership. The determination of which matters an associate member may vote upon shall be solely determined by the Chair of each body and may not be appealed or subject to review by any body of the League or any other body or court. [Council, December 1998]

And to change an Operational Bylaw


8. Voting

A. Any amendments to the Operating Bylaws require a majority vote of all members. According to Robert’s Rules of Order, a majority of eight (8) members will require five (5) affirmative votes.

So based on these excerpts, it appears that it would take a simple majority vote to allow scholarships. I assume Fordham & Georgetown were granted voting rights on the scholarship issue, so there are 10 votes total and therefore, I think Roberts Rules would require 6 votes to carry a majority and change the rule.

Not sure why Army, Navy or American would oppose FB scholarships other than the prospect of adding another full member goes up with FB scholarships and therefore reduces their chances at a PL Championship in all other sports.

Certainly makes a slighly different calculus on the topic and makes all of this that much more intriguing.

[DFW HOYA]

i still believe Army and Navy will vote yes (and presumably American as well) on the basis that long term stengthening (perhaps even survival) of the league and its brand as a whole is best accomplished by that vote. the possible counter to this logic is that perhaps short term strains resulting from this would be too great to overcome. way i see it, it is in their best self interest to vote yes.

Ok, then, what if the vote is 9-1? How soon does the drum beat start to kick Georgetown to the curb? (Not from this group, of course...)

Here's what the PL commissioner needs to say to the presidents in the room before a vote:

"What is Fordham's commitment if the vote passes? Or if the vote passes with less than 60 grants? With a "no" vote? If you are prepared to stay, what commitments will you make to the other schools, and, frankly, if you're going to leave anyway, be up front and say so.

"Next, Georgetown: what is your commitment to the league if the vote passes? If the vote passes with less than 60, can you commit to any number of scholarships at all? A few coaches in this league would just as soon not play you right now anyway. Should we cut ties right now or arrange some sort of loose scheduling arrangement to fill some of your open dates going forward?

"To the academies: are you each prepared to commit to at least one game a year to a fellow PL school? Ok, it's not like you're not dipping down already for a game here and there (Eastern Michigan, North Texas, etc.) but if our schools are bowl-eligible opoponents, we need to know if you're going to support their efforts or ignore them.

"To the rest of you: are you each committed to the long run on scholarships, even if it means cutting back or dropping certain men's sports to cover Title IX in the process? If the Ivy League backtracks or simply drops prior scheduling agreements with your school over scholarships, are you willing to accept this as the price of doing business as a scholarship school? Are you in it together, or just going along?" Are any of you prepared to leave the league entirely over this?

[jimbo65]

Ok, then, what if the vote is 9-1? How soon does the drum beat start to kick Georgetown to the curb? (Not from this group, of course...)
Hopefully never. IMO the vote will not be 9-1. Even if it were to be such, the PL should let Gtown remain until it is evident to Gtown that they are unable to compete at the schollie level.

[RichH2]

We probably should xbangxask AGS to make this a permanent thread at least up to december. If it comes to a vote, the issue will pass. We willnever know who voted for or against. Again IF it comes up for a vote. Issue thereafter of course is what will be the parameters of the scholarships for football. then will the PL expand , contract or maintain the status quo. None of these Qs can be answered until DECember at the earliest and we have plumbed the topic with 1000s of posts. Paraphrasing repeatedly what we have alreadysaid leads nowhere. I know it is still summer but camps are opening over the next week and media guides are starting to come out. We really should start talking FOOTBALL.xnodx

[carney2]

Ignoring RichH2 for the moment, and recognizing that we neither know, nor can we resolve, anything in this forum, my read of the situation now is that with American, Army and Navy as voting members and, in my opinion, unlikely to vote "No," (but not necessarily "Yes") the probability of a simple majority "Yes" vote now exceeds 50%.

[LBPop]

I am gradually becoming more detached from Georgetown football--time and the absence of tuition bills will do that. I will always defer to DFW on all things Georgetown, but let me make a couple of observations:

When Georgetown is accused of having no desire to succeed on the football field, I can understand that conclusion. But I challenge anyone to say that they have seen the players give up during a game. The kids who play for the Hoyas know they will be playing on an embarrassing field, working out in subtandard facilities, and they will be roundly ignored (if not ridiculed) by most of the student body. Yet despite those factors and for no compensation at all, they practice just as often and just as hard as the PL champions. These kids (with only rare exceptions) are warriors; there have been many talented players that have come through this program and even shown up on an NFL roster in the past six years. It can happen at Georgetown, but will it?

The Georgetown administration got it wrong when they hired the current coach. Whether he has survived because Georgetown couldn't afford to replace him, or because they don't know any better is a mystery to me. Under the prior coach the Hoyas showed promise and I believe (as I have written before) that there is out there a young, high energy, football whacko who would work 20 hours a day to make the program work. He would be young, he would be ambitious, and he would be inexpensive. It will take that type of individual to overcome the obvious shortcomings of the program. Then if he is successful, he will undoubtedly be hired away--but by then the momentum would have been generated.

[Franks Tanks]

I am gradually becoming more detached from Georgetown football--time and the absence of tuition bills will do that. I will always defer to DFW on all things Georgetown, but let me make a couple of observations:

When Georgetown is accused of having no desire to succeed on the football field, I can understand that conclusion. But I challenge anyone to say that they have seen the players give up during a game. The kids who play for the Hoyas know they will be playing on an embarrassing field, working out in subtandard facilities, and they will be roundly ignored (if not ridiculed) by most of the student body. Yet despite those factors and for no compensation at all, they practice just as often and just as hard as the PL champions. These kids (with only rare exceptions) are warriors; there have been many talented players that have come through this program and even shown up on an NFL roster in the past six years. It can happen at Georgetown, but will it?

The Georgetown administration got it wrong when they hired the current coach. Whether he has survived because Georgetown couldn't afford to replace him, or because they don't know any better is a mystery to me. Under the prior coach the Hoyas showed promise and I believe (as I have written before) that there is out there a young, high energy, football whacko who would work 20 hours a day to make the program work. He would be young, he would be ambitious, and he would be inexpensive. It will take that type of individual to overcome the obvious shortcomings of the program. Then if he is successful, he will undoubtedly be hired away--but by then the momentum would have been generated.

The player effort has never been an issue. Recruiting, retaining and developing PL level players in enough quantity to be successful is a problem, but the effort given by the Georgetown players has been outstanding. Georgetown has had plenty of quality players through the years, just not enough of them at any given time.

[DFW HOYA]

The Georgetown administration got it wrong when they hired the current coach. Whether he has survived because Georgetown couldn't afford to replace him, or because they don't know any better is a mystery to me.

Kevin Kelly is in a difficult position. He was Bernard Muir's major hire as athletic director, was supported by Muir's article in the New York Times (title: "Georgetown Gets Serious About Football"), but as Kelly entered the critical fourth year of the contract at 5-27, Muir had left for Delaware and there was no A.D. hired to make a decision. Now it's a year later, and Kelly is 5-38 (.116)--other than Trent Miles at Indiana State, I don't know of any Division I coach in 2010 with that kind of record. It took Georgetown 11 months to fill the A.D. position and the assumption was that fixing football was left to the new director. That has to affect recruiting and fundraising....throw in this scholarship talk and it's even more of a Gordian knot.

[ngineer]

The reason for the 'lesser number' I think is to assist schools like Lafayette and Bucknell who could have Title IX problems. I see Army, Navy and American supporting the move. American has not reason to oppose as they don't play the sport. Army and Navy will not be seen as standing in the way of its PL bretheran trying to improve their competitiveness as well as increasing the chance of some games again with each other.

[carney2]

I see Army, Navy and American supporting the move. American has not reason to oppose as they don't play the sport. Army and Navy will not be seen as standing in the way of its PL bretheran trying to improve their competitiveness as well as increasing the chance of some games again with each other.

I see all three doing the gentlemanly thing and abstaining since none has a horse in this race. That leaves it, logically, at:

YES: Colgate + Fordham + Lehigh = 3

NO: Georgetown + Lafayette = 2

UNKNOWN: Bucknell + Holy Cross = 2

Only one of the Unknowns needs to vote "Yes" to make this happen.

But, then, as many of you remind me on a rgular basis, what do I know.

[MplsBison]

Oh, LUHawker, yet another scholarship thread. And with the "Little Brass Cannon" otherwise taking prominence?

Army, Navy and American are full, all-sports members of the Patriot League. Of course they get a say in this.

Army and Navy have a perfect right to be annoyed - they play FBS football while the rest of us now lag behind; all of us once were preeminent powers in college football. Most current FCS participants were nothing more than wet dreams in the fantasies of their boosters when we collectively dominated the gridirons of this nation's college campuses.

We in the Patriot League are the traditional opponents of Army and Navy; we created the legacy they carry on today. That's why they are today, and remain, full members of our humble little all-sports conference, competing with us in every established sport from lacrosse to baseball to swimming and everything in between.

But for the outworld conscription of institutions having little or no concern with our activity, our entire league, the academies included, would be playing The Game as we always have. I, too, long for the era when the Leopards were the Black Knight's traditional homecoming foe and when those Colgate-Army clashes made national headlines.

But it seems to me that the powers that be now are taking the small steps, albeit gingerly, to make it so once more. We must rise to the level of our brethren - not the other way around.

Let's make it so - but in our humble and reserved fashion keeping in mind the real purpose for which we play these games.



EDIT - note to above: Georgetown is most firmly and indisputably amongst us. Protest its achievement if you may, but never its presence.

Athletics are irrelevant to an institution of higher education's primary objective: to educate.

I say that because, that being said, there is a very obvious answer to your statement "but in our humble and reserved fashion keeping in mind the real purpose for which we play these games." That answer is, very simply: a school sponsors a varsity athletic team ... to win the games it plays.

That's it. Win.


Then, scholarships are just a tool that a college varsity team can use to win. Nothing more or less can possibly be said about them in a non-ideological way.


For a team to have the full amount of a tool available at its disposal (max 63 scholarships in FCS) but to purposefully withhold the full use of that tool, no matter the reason (faux-ethical or otherwise) is nonsensical.

[colorless raider]

Ok, then, what if the vote is 9-1? How soon does the drum beat start to kick Georgetown to the curb? (Not from this group, of course...)

Here's what the PL commissioner needs to say to the presidents in the room before a vote:

"What is Fordham's commitment if the vote passes? Or if the vote passes with less than 60 grants? With a "no" vote? If you are prepared to stay, what commitments will you make to the other schools, and, frankly, if you're going to leave anyway, be up front and say so.

"Next, Georgetown: what is your commitment to the league if the vote passes? If the vote passes with less than 60, can you commit to any number of scholarships at all? A few coaches in this league would just as soon not play you right now anyway. Should we cut ties right now or arrange some sort of loose scheduling arrangement to fill some of your open dates going forward?

"To the academies: are you each prepared to commit to at least one game a year to a fellow PL school? Ok, it's not like you're not dipping down already for a game here and there (Eastern Michigan, North Texas, etc.) but if our schools are bowl-eligible opoponents, we need to know if you're going to support their efforts or ignore them.

"To the rest of you: are you each committed to the long run on scholarships, even if it means cutting back or dropping certain men's sports to cover Title IX in the process? If the Ivy League backtracks or simply drops prior scheduling agreements with your school over scholarships, are you willing to accept this as the price of doing business as a scholarship school? Are you in it together, or just going along?" Are any of you prepared to leave the league entirely over this?

The above all assumes a "strong" commissioner. Forget about that, she wants to keep her seet job.

[Fordham]

I see all three doing the gentlemanly thing and abstaining since none has a horse in this race. That leaves it, logically, at:

YES: Colgate + Fordham + Lehigh = 3

NO: Georgetown + Lafayette = 2

UNKNOWN: Bucknell + Holy Cross = 2

Only one of the Unknowns needs to vote "Yes" to make this happen.

But, then, as many of you remind me on a rgular basis, what do I know.

Random thoughts:

It's amazing how much of a toss up this is overall. I would have thought by now that time would have flushed out each school's position more clearly than this. If your positions above are accurate, so much of this will come down to how fervently each of the Core 4 schools argues their position. Would Lehigh's 'yes' waver if approached by LC behind closed doors with a plead that there's no way they could pull this off at this point in time?

Who gets to frame the question to the group and is the group required to give a 'yeah' or nay' response only? A strict "Do you agree to move to 60+ scholarships for football" is very likely to produce a different result than "Do you agree to allow the football playing schools to make their own decisions regarding scholarships' (if only "in favor" or "oppose" type messages are allowed as opposed to a 'yes, but under certain conditions' response).

Despite the expected support of Colgate and Lehigh, will the league announce the results as close to unanimous to give the appearance of a united front? As last minute changing of the vote once wind blowing direction is determined?

Personally, I'm bracing myself for Fordham/PL-Part Deux where the league says 'no' to scholarships and we move ... only to see someone else put their foot down a year or two later and then finally see the league embrace scholarships.

[CrusaderBob]

Random thoughts:
It's amazing how much of a toss up this is overall. I would have thought by now that time would have flushed out each school's position more clearly than this. If your positions above are accurate, so much of this will come down to how fervently each of the Core 4 schools argues their position. Would Lehigh's 'yes' waver if approached by LC behind closed doors with a plead that there's no way they could pull this off at this point in time?

The past 12 months is when all the rule proposals, compromises, posturing, feeling one another out, and determining interest from other institutions has been done. I am guessing he final proposal is in the hands of each president to bring back to their respective BOT for approval or rejection.


Who gets to frame the question to the group and is the group required to give a 'yeah' or nay' response only? A strict "Do you agree to move to 60+ scholarships for football" is very likely to produce a different result than "Do you agree to allow the football playing schools to make their own decisions regarding scholarships' (if only "in favor" or "oppose" type messages are allowed as opposed to a 'yes, but under certain conditions' response).


As to wording of the final proposal, look to the rule that needs to be changed to allow merit aid (scholarships) in football. My emphasis below.



OPERATIONAL BYLAWS

ARTICLE VI - FINANCIAL AID (Revised March 2001)

3. Merit Awards-Academic and Athletic
Student-athletes receiving academic and athletic merit awards should collectively reflect the academic qualifications consistent with the profile of their entering class. The Council of Presidents (in consultation with the Policy Committee) will develop standards for determining whether this requirement has been satisfied and for enforcing compliance with it.

A. Sports other than Football
Consistent with the above principles, and at the discretion of the member institution, student-athletes in all sports other than football may be granted academic or athletic merit-based financial aid awards. All student-athletes receiving merit awards above need, shall be reported annually, along with their academic index, to the Executive Director for review by the Policy Committee at its spring meeting.

B. Football
In the sport of football, student-athletes may not be awarded financial aid based upon athletic ability in excess of demonstrated need (also known as grants-in-aid). Any football student-athlete receiving an academic merit-based financial aid award above need should have academic credentials similar to other students generally receiving academic merit awards at that institution. They shall be reported annually, along with their academic index, to the Executive Director for review by the Policy Committee at its spring meeting. Further, institutional data on all financial aid offers (within need and above need) made to incoming student-athletes participating in football shall be reported to the Executive Director and reviewed by the Policy Committee at its fall meeting. Student-athletes receiving athletic merit-based financial aid awards in sports other than football are not eligible to participate in Patriot League football.

Note: Per approval by the Council of Presidents, Fordham will begin awarding merit aid to its football class entering in the fall of 2010. [May 2009]

Fordham has said 63 scholarships. That's what's on the table. Anything else and it has the same effect for them as no scholarships. My guess on the language of the proposed rule change

1. Delete paragraph B above
2. Delete the Bolded, underlined text in paragraph A

Do that and you may now give FB scholarships in the PL.

With those changes, each school still has to decide what to do on its own - which is exactly what happens in every other sport in the PL. Not the greatest thing in the world for competitive balance of the league, but, why should FB be any different than any other PL sport? Because it has a slightly higher profile? Nobody worries about competitive balance in womens volleyball or any other sport where some schools grant scholarships and some don't.

I know no one here will like it, but that's the argument that will be made and I'll bet that's the way it goes.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Random thoughts:

It's amazing how much of a toss up this is overall. I would have thought by now that time would have flushed out each school's position more clearly than this. If your positions above are accurate, so much of this will come down to how fervently each of the Core 4 schools argues their position. Would Lehigh's 'yes' waver if approached by LC behind closed doors with a plead that there's no way they could pull this off at this point in time?

Agree with Fordham here - Lafayette's Frank Tavani said at a very recent event that the Leopards will cast a "no" vote but probably will go along with the league if scholarships are approved. That can be read as an acknowledgment that the votes already are there for scholarships but that the Pandering Pardsvillians want to save face with the faculty and the Swarthmorists amongst them. "It's not our fault! We voted no but we were overruled! We don't want to be kicked out of our own club!"

I'm guessing were going to see the hybrid of all hybrid systems - something that counts transparently as 63 full scholarships (there's no reason whatsoever to do anything other than the full 63) but retains the Academic Index and carefully monitors control of the process. For "branding" and face-saving proposes we'll call it something other than a "scholarship" but everyone will know what its is.

[Franks Tanks]

Agree with Fordham here - Lafayette's Frank Tavani said at a very recent event that the Leopards will cast a "no" vote but probably will go along with the league if scholarships are approved. That can be read as an acknowledgment that the votes already are there for scholarships but that the Pandering Pardsvillians want to save face with the faculty and the Swarthmorists amongst them. "It's not our fault! We voted no but we were overruled! We don't want to be kicked out of our own club!"

I'm guessing were going to see the hybrid of all hybrid systems - something that counts transparently as 63 full scholarships (there's no reason whatsoever to do anything other than the full 63) but retains the Academic Index and carefully monitors control of the process. For "branding" and face-saving proposes we'll call it something other than a "scholarship" but everyone will know what its is.

Well put. If the league goes scholarship Lafayette will as well. Some comments by Frank are below.

http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=sportsnetwork&page=cfoot2/news/newstest.aspx?id=4331686

"In my own personal opinion - which certainly may not be the opinion of other people at our school - for the good of the future of the league, I think scholarships are inevitable," Lafayette coach Frank Tavani said. "I think they're coming at some point one way or another and at this point need to be. I really don't believe that we can get any credible additions and new membership to the conference without it. To me, that's critical - sustaining the league. And beside the point, let's not just forget the fact that we're doing it in every other sport, but not with football."


Lafayette is very happy with the Patriot League and we need it to continue. Adding football scholarships is a critical piece in keeping the league viable. It would be incredibly stupid to spoil the league over something as petty as football scholarships.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Lafayette is very happy with the Patriot League and we need it to continue. Adding football scholarships is a critical piece in keeping the league viable. It would be incredibly stupid to spoil the league over something as petty as football scholarships.

The last few years have seen a marked increase in media references to "getting into a Patriot League college." We finally have an image. Maybe even a positive one. Can't give that up now. A reference to "getting a football scholarship to a Patriot League College" doesn't sound so bad, after all.

The Ivy League? For the past hundred years or so we've been polishing Princeton's Little Brass Nuts with our jock straps. Payback is gonna be a *****, no?


Random thoughts:

much of this will come down to how fervently each of the Core 4 schools argues their position.

Drunkenly stammered at the Bacchanal sloshfest following the "yes" vote: "Core Four and seven beers ago, our presidents brought forth, upon the Lehigh Valley, a new notion, conceived in anxiety, and dedicated to the proposition that all our colleges were created equal . . . . "

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm guessing were going to see the hybrid of all hybrid systems - something that counts transparently as 63 full scholarships (there's no reason whatsoever to do anything other than the full 63) but retains the Academic Index and carefully monitors control of the process. For "branding" and face-saving proposes we'll call it something other than a "scholarship" but everyone will know what its is.

The Academic Index ain't going anywhere. It will be a part of the Patriot League for now and the forseeable future.

But it would not surprise me to see the PL go to a hybrid system - X number of "conventional scholarships", and the rest being need-based aid (which folks can use to get up to the maximum of 63, or not).

Here's my question: let's say it's a hybrid model. I'll take a number out of the air; 36 "conventional" scholarships will now be allowed to be offered, with the rest being need-based aid. How does that work for Title IX? Does the entire amount of scholarships plus need-based aid need to be accounted for for Title IX?

ex. 36 scholarships + 21 need-based scholarships = need to find 57 women's scholarships to be in compliance

Or do you do this?

ex. 36 scholarships + 21 need-based scholarships = need to find 36 women's scholarships, plus allocate the funds for 21 need based scholarships for women's sports, to be in compliance

For the schools with potential issues with Title IX, this is an important money question.

[Bogus Megapardus]

ex. 36 scholarships + 21 need-based scholarships = need to find 57 women's scholarships to be in compliance

Or do you do this?

ex. 36 scholarships + 21 need-based scholarships = need to find 36 women's scholarships, plus allocate the funds for 21 need based scholarships for women's sports, to be in compliance

For the schools with potential issues with Title IX, this is an important money question.

It makes no difference whether or not it passes rational muster under Title IX or whether or not it actually provides equal opportunity to male and female athletes. Most likely they're concerned only with whether or not it will pass the Erin Buzuvis Politically Correct Stink Test.

[Franks Tanks]

The last few years have seen a marked increase in media references to "getting into a Patriot League college." We finally have an image. Maybe even a positive one. Can't give that up now. A reference to "getting a football scholarship to a Patriot League College" doesn't sound so bad, after all.

The Ivy League? For the past hundred years or so we've been polishing Princeton's Little Brass Nuts with our jock straps. Payback is gonna be a *****, no?



Drunkenly stammered at the Bacchanal sloshfest following the "yes" vote: "Core Four and seven beers ago, our presidents brought forth, upon the Lehigh Valley, a new notion, conceived in anxiety, and dedicated to the proposition that all our colleges were created equal . . . . "

I have also heard references to aspiring to a Patriot League school. The brand is building each year, and abandoning it now would be silly.

[Sader87]

Outside of the vaunted Lehigh Valley region, very few of the general populace have any idea what the Patriot League is or who the hell is in it. I'm willing to wager my check from last week's basketball camp (admittedly, very nominal) that you couldn't find more than a couple of sports writers at the Boston Globe, Providence Journal or Hartford Courant who could name all 7 (or is it 6?) Patriot League football playing members.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Outside of the vaunted Lehigh Valley region, very few of the general populace have any idea what the Patriot League is or who the hell is in it. I'm willing to wager my check from last week's basketball camp (admittedly, very nominal) that you couldn't find more than a couple of sports writers at the Boston Globe, Providence Journal or Hartford Courant who could name all 7 (or is it 6?) Patriot League football playing members.

I think the notion of sustaining a "Patriot League College" brand is meant to reach all potential students; both athletes and non-athletes. Sportswriters are one group, but perhaps more important is how the message is received by teachers, guidance counselors and parents of high school juniors who might not read the Courant or Globe sports pages.

Kids don't necessarily apply to PL colleges based on what a sportswriter thinks.

[ramMan]

Fordham has said 63 scholarships. That's what's on the table. Anything else and it has the same effect for them as no scholarships.



Agreed.

From The Sports Network article:
The addition of athletic scholarships would likely be capped at a number far below the 63 allowed to FCS programs.

If that's the case, I'd expect Fordham to vote no...or abstain.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Agreed.

From The Sports Network article:
The addition of athletic scholarships would likely be capped at a number far below the 63 allowed to FCS programs.

If that's the case, I'd expect Fordham to vote no...or abstain.

I'd love to know how Mr. Haley knows this is so "likely", unless he has interviewed some PL presidents at the media day that I wasn't aware of.

[Pard94]

Outside of the vaunted Lehigh Valley region, very few of the general populace have any idea what the Patriot League is or who the hell is in it. I'm willing to wager my check from last week's basketball camp (admittedly, very nominal) that you couldn't find more than a couple of sports writers at the Boston Globe, Providence Journal or Hartford Courant who could name all 7 (or is it 6?) Patriot League football playing members.

Could they name all of the members of the CAA? For that matter are you confident they are all up to speed on your personal Holy Grail, The Big East?

[Sader87]

Could they name all of the members of the CAA? For that matter are you confident they are all up to speed on your personal Holy Grail, The Big East?

The BE is not my personal holy grail...that ship was sailed.

My point is that the "PL Brand" is essentially nonexistent in New England. I can say this with some authority as a hs teacher/coach in Massachusetts. Kids know of the individual schools but 99.9% of the teachers, students and even guidance counselors have no idea that say Georgetown and Colgate are in the same league for football. (Most coaches probably do but even then I'm sure there are quite a few who don't know the intracacies of merit aid etc.).

[Bogus Megapardus]

The BE is not my personal holy grail...that ship was sailed.

My point is that the "PL Brand" is essentially nonexistent in New England. I can say this with some authority as a hs teacher/coach in Massachusetts. Kids know of the individual schools but 99.9% of the teachers, students and even guidance counselors have no idea that say Georgetown and Colgate are in the same league for football. (Most coaches probably do but even then I'm sure there are quite a few who don't know the intracacies of merit aid etc.).

Ivy is invasive vegetation in New England. Other flora, even if gaining a root-hold, soon are choked from growth in the garden.

I completely agree that most don't know the intricacies of PL-style aid. This is an excellent point - and there's no reasonable or attractive way to explain or differentiate it. Telling a kid or his parents that it works the same as many Division III schools is utterly unhelpful, of course.

[Franks Tanks]

The BE is not my personal holy grail...that ship was sailed.

My point is that the "PL Brand" is essentially nonexistent in New England. I can say this with some authority as a hs teacher/coach in Massachusetts. Kids know of the individual schools but 99.9% of the teachers, students and even guidance counselors have no idea that say Georgetown and Colgate are in the same league for football. (Most coaches probably do but even then I'm sure there are quite a few who don't know the intracacies of merit aid etc.).

Thats not really the point. A regular student doesnt care that Colgate and Georgetown play PL football.

Dont forget that the Ivy league is simply an athletic conference that branded 8 schools. The term is now a synonym for academic excellence, but the brand came from an athletic conference.

A kid will say they are applying to "Big 10" schools or Ivy schools. It is an easy way to communicate what type of schools one is interested in. I have heard people say "I plan on getting my MBA at a Big 10 school. They may decide on Minnesota or Purdue, but you get the idea.

I know you dont believe me but it's true. Regular students are using the term Patriot league school when applying to schools of the PL. Go to discussion boards like college confidential and you will see Patriot League used in the same manner I described above.

[MplsBison]

The Academic Index ain't going anywhere. It will be a part of the Patriot League for now and the forseeable future.

But it would not surprise me to see the PL go to a hybrid system - X number of "conventional scholarships", and the rest being need-based aid (which folks can use to get up to the maximum of 63, or not).

Here's my question: let's say it's a hybrid model. I'll take a number out of the air; 36 "conventional" scholarships will now be allowed to be offered, with the rest being need-based aid. How does that work for Title IX? Does the entire amount of scholarships plus need-based aid need to be accounted for for Title IX?

ex. 36 scholarships + 21 need-based scholarships = need to find 57 women's scholarships to be in compliance

Or do you do this?

ex. 36 scholarships + 21 need-based scholarships = need to find 36 women's scholarships, plus allocate the funds for 21 need based scholarships for women's sports, to be in compliance

For the schools with potential issues with Title IX, this is an important money question.

It doesn't matter to the Feds what you call it...if you're giving X dollars to male athletes (regardless of whatever nonsensical "needs based" formula to use to decide the amount), then that's that. Your school would do well to give that same X dollar amount to female athletes.

[MplsBison]

Thats not really the point. A regular student doesnt care that Colgate and Georgetown play PL football.

Dont forget that the Ivy league is simply an athletic conference that branded 8 schools. The term is now a synonym for academic excellence, but the brand came from an athletic conference.

A kid will say they are applying to "Big 10" schools or Ivy schools. It is an easy way to communicate what type of schools one is interested in. I have heard people say "I plan on getting my MBA at a Big 10 school. They may decide on Minnesota or Purdue, but you get the idea.

I know you dont believe me but it's true. Regular students are using the term Patriot league school when applying to schools of the PL. Go to discussion boards like college confidential and you will see Patriot League used in the same manner I described above.

Probably by PL alumni...but not many else.

PL doesn't have an never will have the credibility of an Ivy League or Big Ten, in terms of academic prestige.


Why can't you just accept that your school is a top academic institution on it's own and stop trying to force other schools in the conferences to do this or that for the sake of academic excellence or faux-ethics?

[Franks Tanks]

Probably by PL alumni...but not many else.

PL doesn't have an never will have the credibility of an Ivy League or Big Ten, in terms of academic prestige.


Why can't you just accept that your school is a top academic institution on it's own and stop trying to force other schools in the conferences to do this or that for the sake of academic excellence or faux-ethics?


No you dumbass, it is among young people applying to college.

I didnt measure the prestige level (by the way sans Michigan out of state and Northwestern it is harder to get into PL schools than Big 10) but simply a brand that groups like schools.

Go away.

[jimbo65]

It doesn't matter to the Feds what you call it...if you're giving X dollars to male athletes (regardless of whatever nonsensical "needs based" formula to use to decide the amount), then that's that. Your school would do well to give that same X dollar amount to female athletes.
IMO, Title IX is similar to many govt. programs, i.e., well intended (giving the benefit of the doubt) but flawed and readily manipulated. For example, as I understand it, there has to be an even distribution of $s between men's & women's sports or perhaps it is based on the % of males & females in the university. Either way, though it was intended to increase sports opportunities for women, "equality" can be partially achieved by eliminating men's sports such as track & baseball. Another ploy would be to select a women's sport, say basketball and stock the coaching roster with exhorbinantly expensive talent. Does this help the women in general, no, but it is aids compliance.

Realistically, no one cares about the non-marquee sports, men's or women's but the participants, friends & family, coaches. There are some "boutique" sports that do get regional interest, for example wrestling in the Midwest etc. but largely the interest is in men's basketball & football.

What should also be brought into the equation are the revenue producing sports. A big time fball program funds, or should fund, numerous minor sports. Perhaps something could be done to require the institutions to put so much of the "profit" from big time sports into women's whatevers.

[MplsBison]

No you dumbass, it is among young people applying to college.

I didnt measure the prestige level (by the way sans Michigan out of state and Northwestern it is harder to get into PL schools than Big 10) but simply a brand that groups like schools.

Go away.

I know exactly what you were trying to say - that common people, even if just in the NE, refer to the "PL" as an academic brand.

No...they don't. Not unless they went to/graduated from a PL school. The only athletic conferences that have legitimate extensions into an academic brand are the Big Ten and Ivy League. Anything else is invalid in the context of common, non-alumni usage.

[Franks Tanks]

I know exactly what you were trying to say - that common people, even if just in the NE, refer to the "PL" as an academic brand.

No...they don't. Not unless they went to/graduated from a PL school. The only athletic conferences that have legitimate extensions into an academic brand are the Big Ten and Ivy League. Anything else is invalid in the context of common, non-alumni usage.

False. I am not trying to argue that the Patriot League academic brand will ever hold a candle to the popularity of the Ivy or Big 10 brand, but it is there and used by non-alums.

Look at this website http://www.go4ivy.com/patriot.asp. They specifically mention Patriot league schools in a seperate category.

[colorless raider]

I know exactly what you were trying to say - that common people, even if just in the NE, refer to the "PL" as an academic brand.

No...they don't. Not unless they went to/graduated from a PL school. The only athletic conferences that have legitimate extensions into an academic brand are the Big Ten and Ivy League. Anything else is invalid in the context of common, non-alumni usage.

Unbeliveably dense.

[MplsBison]

IMO, Title IX is similar to many govt. programs, i.e., well intended (giving the benefit of the doubt) but flawed and readily manipulated. For example, as I understand it, there has to be an even distribution of $s between men's & women's sports or perhaps it is based on the % of males & females in the university. Either way, though it was intended to increase sports opportunities for women, "equality" can be partially achieved by eliminating men's sports such as track & baseball. Another ploy would be to select a women's sport, say basketball and stock the coaching roster with exhorbinantly expensive talent. Does this help the women in general, no, but it is aids compliance.

Realistically, no one cares about the non-marquee sports, men's or women's but the participants, friends & family, coaches. There are some "boutique" sports that do get regional interest, for example wrestling in the Midwest etc. but largely the interest is in men's basketball & football.

What should also be brought into the equation are the revenue producing sports. A big time fball program funds, or should fund, numerous minor sports. Perhaps something could be done to require the institutions to put so much of the "profit" from big time sports into women's whatevers.

I don't think you can stock up on expensive coaches, as you would put it. The letter of the law is about providing opportunities to females. IE, the school's athletic department needs to be sending the same dollars to the girls as they do the guys.


Otherwise, bottom line: you open yourself up to a lawsuit. That's really what it's all about, lawsuit mitigation.

[MplsBison]

False. I am not trying to argue that the Patriot League academic brand will ever hold a candle to the popularity of the Ivy or Big 10 brand, but it is there and used by non-alums.

Look at this website http://www.go4ivy.com/patriot.asp. They specifically mention Patriot league schools in a seperate category.

From your own link, the go4ivy site has the following categories at the top of the page:

- The Ivy League
- Engineering Colleges
- Northeast Colleges
- Midwest Colleges
- West Coast Colleges
- Southeast Colleges
- Big Ten Colleges

You're either sorely mistaken or just plum being dishonest about the academic weight of the athletic brand "Patriot League".

[Franks Tanks]

From your own link, the go4ivy site has the following categories at the top of the page:

- The Ivy League
- Engineering Colleges
- Northeast Colleges
- Midwest Colleges
- West Coast Colleges
- Southeast Colleges
- Big Ten Colleges

You're either sorely mistaken or just plum being dishonest about the academic weight of the athletic brand "Patriot League".

Click on the Northeastern college tab. The last selection is grouped by Patriot League. Of all the regions it is one of the few grouped by conference. Did you not follow the link I provided that specificially highlights Patriot League schools as a group?


Here is another example on yahoo answers.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081110043107AAZH3gR

The poster is asking about Patriot League schools as a group. Clearly the poster views PL schools as a brand, and refers to the group of schools like one would say Ivy League school.

Again its not as widespread, but it absolutely occurs.

[RichH2]

Why do we let this guy jerk our chains . Dense is an apt description,if not exreme enough. He is an idealogue. No facts will ever change his view of the universe

[MplsBison]

Click on the Northeastern college tab. The last selection is grouped by Patriot League. Of all the regions it is one of the few grouped by conference. Did you not follow the link I provided that specificially highlights Patriot League schools as a group?


Here is another example on yahoo answers.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081110043107AAZH3gR

The poster is asking about Patriot League schools as a group. Clearly the poster views PL schools as a brand, and refers to the group of schools like one would say Ivy League school.

Again its not as widespread, but it absolutely occurs.

Let me get this straight, your claim is that the PL is a known academic brand because someone posted on Yahoo Answers?

Ok, I will give you that a few people know the brand for football and know that the schools in the athletic brand are good academic schools. But outside of alumni, it's few people. You already retreated from comparisons to the Ivy and Big Ten, but it's not even a tenth of that, even in the NE.

[ngineer]

This thread can be officially closed....until December. Keith Groller's column in today's Morning Call pretty much says that absolutely nothing will occur on this issue until the Presidents of the PL schools meet in December. Until then, there is nothing more to talk about.

[Bogus Megapardus]

This thread can be officially closed....until December. Keith Groller's column in today's Morning Call pretty much says that absolutely nothing will occur on this issue until the Presidents of the PL schools meet in December. Until then, there is nothing more to talk about.

Fine. Let Groller (http://www.mcall.com/sports/columnists/groller/mc-groller-column-0807-20100807,0,4632251.column), that Lehigh shill, spend the months until then looking for our Cannon. He can start with Broadway Mini Storage and work over from there.

[ngineer]

Fine. Let Groller (http://www.mcall.com/sports/columnists/groller/mc-groller-column-0807-20100807,0,4632251.column), that Lehigh shill, spend the months until then looking for our Cannon. He can start with Broadway Mini Storage and work over from there.

Actually, the Express-Times had a decent article on the QB competition at Lehigh this August. While Groller has given 'positive' press to Lehigh over the years, I don't see him as a "shill" who blindly drinks any school's Kool-Aid.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'm thankful that we still have newspapers to cover us.

[Go...gate]

Let me get this straight, your claim is that the PL is a known academic brand because someone posted on Yahoo Answers?

Ok, I will give you that a few people know the brand for football and know that the schools in the athletic brand are good academic schools. But outside of alumni, it's few people. You already retreated from comparisons to the Ivy and Big Ten, but it's not even a tenth of that, even in the NE.

In this part of the world (Central NJ) the PL is considered a known academic brand.

[DFW HOYA]

In this part of the world (Central NJ) the PL is considered a known academic brand.

Within a two hour radius of Allentown-Easton, the PL has some brand awareness, but that's probably about it. Maybe in Worcester, hard to say. Probably not much in Boston, NY, or DC.

[CFBfan]

Within a two hour radius of Allentown-Easton, the PL has some brand awareness, but that's probably about it. Maybe in Worcester, hard to say. Probably not much in Boston, NY, or DC.

I live in Northern NJ & Travel for work from Boston to DC and most....not all but most people I work with do know what/who the PL is and what it stands for...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm thankful that we still have newspapers to cover us.

xthumbsdownx xpissedx xnonox
xlolx

[Go...gate]

Why close the thread?

[MplsBison]

In this part of the world (Central NJ) the PL is considered a known academic brand.

There must be a decent number of PL alumni, then. Because those are about the only people who tout the PL as an academic brand. Or maybe it's just that most of the people you know are PL alumni, which would make sense.

[MplsBison]

I live in Northern NJ & Travel for work from Boston to DC and most....not all but most people I work with do know what/who the PL is and what it stands for...

An athletic conference? I'm sure anyone who follows March Madness knows that a PL team is in the tournament every year...

[Bogus Megapardus]

MplsBison

Best reason of all to close this thread.

[RichH2]

From your mouth to God's ear. Does this guy have his own school or ha he adopted the PL to harass

[Sader87]

I'm really starting to loathe the term "brand"....as in "...improving our school's brand." Just sayin'

[bison137]

From your mouth to God's ear. Does this guy have his own school or ha he adopted the PL to harass

He claims to have graduated from college. However, based on his lack of reasoning ability and his borderline literacy, I think it is unlikely he has a degree from anywhere - even a H.S. I'm sure most NDSU grads would deny he ever attended their school.

[LBPop]

Within a two hour radius of Allentown-Easton, the PL has some brand awareness, but that's probably about it. Maybe in Worcester, hard to say. Probably not much in Boston, NY, or DC.

Sadly, I am an example of what DFW says here. Back in 2003 when LBKid started getting recruited by the Ivys and PL schools, I knew all about the Ivy League. But when Georgetown, Bucknell and Lafayette came calling I knew each of those schools (and the rest of the PL) to be outstanding institutions. But I didn't know a single thing about the Patriot League. I am a DC native, an intense football fan, and I had a PL football school 10 miles from my home. But I didn't even know there WAS a Patriot League.

This might be the classic example of the whole being less that the sum of its parts and that is sad. In DC the answer to PL awareness is probably for Georgetown to start winning. But as I think about it, if that were to happen I think the entire league would benefit. I am not holding my breath...but I still root for those kids who play in that lousy "stadium" that is inferior to the high school facility that probably about 50% of them played in.

[CFBfan]

An athletic conference? I'm sure anyone who follows March Madness knows that a PL team is in the tournament every year...

Mpls, don't forget to take your meds this afternoon....

[Sader87]

The only people who know about the PL in Massachusetts (aside from HC alums and fans) are college hoop junkies and high school athletic coaches. I've both taught and coached kids who've applied to most of the PL schools but I've never once heard them respond in a way that "grouped them together" so to speak i.e. "Hey Mr M, yeah I applied to Babson, UMass, a couple of the Patriot League schools..."

[Bogus Megapardus]

The only people who know about the PL in Massachusetts (aside from HC alums and fans) are college hoop junkies and high school athletic coaches. I've both taught and coached kids who've applied to most of the PL schools but I've never once heard them respond in a way that "grouped them together" so to speak i.e. "Hey Mr M, yeah I applied to Babson, UMass, a couple of the Patriot League schools..."

I hear you. But in contrast, I was at a meeting in NYC talking to a guy who was very pleased for his daughter who got accepted at American U., saying that she "never thought she could get into a Patriot League school." There was no indication that she planned to participate in athletics.

I hear what you're saying about the pejorative connotation of the word "branding" as a cliche B-school buzzword. Everyone's a marketing genius these days and no one actually works for a living. I dislike the term as well and I don't like the fact that I used it myself in this thread. At minimum, I think that the presidents think that there is some value to "Patriot League" as a concept aside from athletics, whatever that might be.

[MplsBison]

The only people who know about the PL in Massachusetts (aside from HC alums and fans) are college hoop junkies and high school athletic coaches. I've both taught and coached kids who've applied to most of the PL schools but I've never once heard them respond in a way that "grouped them together" so to speak i.e. "Hey Mr M, yeah I applied to Babson, UMass, a couple of the Patriot League schools..."

Exactly. Very few non-alumni use athletic conference brands to refer to schools academically, except the Big Ten and Ivy League schools.

[Go...gate]

Within a two hour radius of Allentown-Easton, the PL has some brand awareness, but that's probably about it. Maybe in Worcester, hard to say. Probably not much in Boston, NY, or DC.

I think it also does well with the prep schools, which are generally plentiful in the Northeast. In NJ, Delbarton, Morristown-Beard, Rutgers Prep, Pingry, Blair, Seton Hall Prep, Peddie, Hun, Lawrenceville, Pennington, Princeton Day and Stuart all send a lot of kids (including Student-Athletes) to the PL.

[CFBfan]

I think it also does well with the prep schools, which are generally plentiful in the Northeast. In NJ, Delbarton, Morristown-Beard, Rutgers Prep, Pingry, Blair, Seton Hall Prep, Peddie, Hun, Lawrenceville, Pennington, Princeton Day and Stuart all send a lot of kids (including Student-Athletes) to the PL.

also St Peter's Prep, Bergen Catholic, plus publics like Ridgewood, Wayne Hills (look at the current roster)

[Fordham]

Sadly, I am an example of what DFW says here. Back in 2003 when LBKid started getting recruited by the Ivys and PL schools, I knew all about the Ivy League. But when Georgetown, Bucknell and Lafayette came calling I knew each of those schools (and the rest of the PL) to be outstanding institutions. But I didn't know a single thing about the Patriot League. I am a DC native, an intense football fan, and I had a PL football school 10 miles from my home. But I didn't even know there WAS a Patriot League.

This might be the classic example of the whole being less that the sum of its parts and that is sad. In DC the answer to PL awareness is probably for Georgetown to start winning. But as I think about it, if that were to happen I think the entire league would benefit. I am not holding my breath...but I still root for those kids who play in that lousy "stadium" that is inferior to the high school facility that probably about 50% of them played in.

Great post and I agree 100% (maybe that's why I think it's 'great'!).

It's so frustrating to see the unrealized potential of the PL. I don't think they've done squat to market themselves in any meaningful way overall. For the past 20+ years they have done their best to make the argument that they're the next best thing to the Ivies but it's such a distant second (if it even is a 2nd) that it's ridiculous. Not to mention that the minute we start getting competitive, the Ivies start looking afield for a different level of competition. Having coaches whisper that "we're just like the Ivies" to prospective recruits ISN'T a marketing program.

.... and as much as the Big10 is about athletic excellence AND academic excellence, imo they are very much part of the BCS-athletics-comes-first world. Basically, the best academic group in a an athlete-centric universe. That's why I really think there's a missing part of the market for a conference who not only excels academically but also athletically. That little bit of difference can make all of the difference since it's a space not being occupied today in the marketplace. I, unfortunately, have lost all hope that the conference can realize it's unrealized potential. It's either completely ineffective or simply not empowered enough to drive this change.

As far as branding and marketing goes ... it might be annoying or dry-heave-causing, but the fact is that it's really all marketing at the end of the day ... and that starts with the Ivies.

[Go...gate]

also St Peter's Prep, Bergen Catholic, plus publics like Ridgewood, Wayne Hills (look at the current roster)

Right. We could add Saint Benedict's, Don Bosco, Bayley-Ellard and Bergen Catholic in north NJ, Collegiate Prep in NYC, Iona Prep in New Rochelle, Hill, Mercersburg, Chestnut Hill, Episcopal and Germantown Academy in PA, St. Andrews in DE and many others, including Andover, Exeter, Kingswood-Oxford and others. Among the preps and parochials, one could argue that the PL is much more a "national brand".

[DFW HOYA]

Right. We could add Saint Benedict's, Don Bosco, Bayley-Ellard and Bergen Catholic in north NJ, Collegiate Prep in NYC, Iona Prep in New Rochelle, Hill, Mercersburg, Chestnut Hill, Episcopal and Germantown Academy in PA, St. Andrews in DE and many others, including Andover, Exeter, Kingswood-Oxford and others. Among the preps and parochials, one could argue that the PL is much more a "national brand".

You've inadvertently made the point that the PL does not have name recognition south of, say, Philadelphia. The Fordham point above is important--if the PL promotes itself as being the second choice to all things Ivy, it shouldn't be surprised if people think of it as a second choice, if they think of it at all.

Ask a recruit in Georgia or Texas or California what they think about the prestige of the Patriot League, and you're likely to get a blank stare.

[ngineer]

True there isn't the media budget for 'branding' a league persona; however, the word about Patriot League schools is out there for those who are looking for such a challenge. Hence, the reason more and more players from the South and West are showing up on PL rosters. Players with excellent grades, heart, and leadership skills and who are not looking at college as only a means to get a shot at the NFL find out about us.

[Bogus Megapardus]

You've inadvertently made the point that the PL does not have name recognition south of, say, Philadelphia. The Fordham point above is important--if the PL promotes itself as being the second choice to all things Ivy, it shouldn't be surprised if people think of it as a second choice, if they think of it at all.

Ask a recruit in Georgia or Texas or California what they think about the prestige of the Patriot League, and you're likely to get a blank stare.

Only one thing we can say for certain - no one in the administration at Georgetown seems to have heard of, or could care less about, the Patriot League. What a disappointment it must be for the players who arrive for camp to find out they're not playing in the Big East. I think the one kid who read "The Last Amateurs" wound up transferring to Delaware, so he doesn't count.

So we should chuck the whole "league" thing and just have everyone go independent? I tend to agree with you that the notion of continuing to play in a conference that no one has ever heard of seems imprudent and thoughtless for a bunch of presumably-educated propellerheads. But I think most find the prospect of an organized scheduling arrangement to be, at minimum, a convenient and time-saving artifice.

I'm going to go way out on a limb here and suggest that we continue to "have" the PL for now, regardless of what it might or might not mean to blank-staring Californians. If the whole BCS thing doesn't work out too well for the Hoyas, we'll still be here for ya.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You've inadvertently made the point that the PL does not have name recognition south of, say, Philadelphia. The Fordham point above is important--if the PL promotes itself as being the second choice to all things Ivy, it shouldn't be surprised if people think of it as a second choice, if they think of it at all.

Ask a recruit in Georgia or Texas or California what they think about the prestige of the Patriot League, and you're likely to get a blank stare.

Not in Kansas or Arkansas, however.

[MplsBison]

Only one thing we can say for certain - no one in the administration at Georgetown seems to have heard of, or could care less about, the Patriot League. What a disappointment it must be for the players who arrive for camp to find out they're not playing in the Big East. I think the one kid who read "The Last Amateurs" wound up transferring to Delaware, so he doesn't count.

So we should chuck the whole "league" thing and just have everyone go independent? I tend to agree with you that the notion of continuing to play in a conference that no one has ever heard of seems imprudent and thoughtless for a bunch of presumably-educated propellerheads. But I think most find the prospect of an organized scheduling arrangement to be, at minimum, a convenient and time-saving artifice.

I'm going to go way out on a limb here and suggest that we continue to "have" the PL for now, regardless of what it might or might not mean to blank-staring Californians. If the whole BCS thing doesn't work out too well for the Hoyas, we'll still be here for ya.

Thanks for once again proving the point: the PL is great as an athletic conference.

No one uses it as an academic brand except alumni.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There needs to be some perspective here.

If you ask your typical sports fan, he or she may not have heard of the Patriot League. But they also probably don't know Villanova won the FCS national championship last year, South Carolina State has a football team, or anything else about the subdivision. They may have a working knowledge that USC was good (but they cheated to do so), they know that Appalachian State embarrassed Michigan (and, as a corollary, that the Big Ten has been in serious decline for more than a decade on the field), and that the SEC is filled with powerhouse teams, but they pretty much accept the fact that they sell their souls to the devil to do so.

However, the prospective students know a whole lot more about the Patriot League than you think. Think for a moment how college counselling has changed over the last twenty years. Before, your only access to information about a school was either your high school guidance counselor, or a college day at the local high school. (Less frequently, it would involve seeing the team on Saturdays in the fall or March Madness.) Now, anyone can get any school's information from almost anywhere - your computer, your phone, or anywhere. Coaches I talk to are astounded how much the recruits themselves know about the schools and they're applying to, and the Patriot League. Plus - as we all know - these kids are frequently captains of their high school teams and extremely high academic achievers. They're likely to have gone the extra mile to do some research before committing anywhere.

If we're getting the best students to apply to our schools, win our championships and compete for NCAA titles, well, isn't that really the endgame anyway? Think of the SEC as barrage advertising, while the Patriot League is targeted advertising. Which type is on the cutting edge? We don't operate on a majority; we don't accept all our applicants. We're extremely selective. And our "marketing" should be selective too. SEC schools suck up a bunch of in-state kids and some out-of-state talent in sports and other disciplines; Patriot League schools look for the best and brightest nationally. It's only natural that the "branding" be different.

In the end, it doesn't matter that "most people" don't know what the Patriot League is. But an important number do - the kids and adults who matter. In this day and age, you don't need 50% of the population to know who you are. You just need a 1% of active, engaged, motivated people.

[DFW HOYA]

Only one thing we can say for certain - no one in the administration at Georgetown seems to have heard of, or could care less about, the Patriot League. What a disappointment it must be for the players who arrive for camp to find out they're not playing in the Big East. I think the one kid who read "The Last Amateurs" wound up transferring to Delaware, so he doesn't count.

This discussion has nothing to do with Georgetown. If the PL wants to build brand identity it needs to leverage tools at its disposal (media, better scheduling, promotion) to draw interest beyond the Eastern PA-NJ-Upstate NY triangle where the schools are most visible. If that's as far as you want to aim, that's fine, but if the PL wants to think of itself as more than a regional league, it's got to look beyond a region.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'm really sorry to have to do this, but could we please have MplsBison removed from here? Before he was banned there, here's just a small sampling of what his school's own fans had to say about him on bisonville.com (http://www.bisonville.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13201):


"Can someone here please put a muzzle on him? He's embarrassing to both of our favorite schools."

"He is already banned on this site. Can't they ban him on other sites? The problem with him is that the more you confront him the more he likes to argue and post. Not sure if he can be stopped."

"You can't stop him. You can't contain him. You can only hope to ignore him."

"Without a doubt he is one of the biggest A-holes I think I've ever encountered on the net. He has raised the bar to new heights in anal sphincterdom."

"MplsBison and **** should be locked in a room together and throw away the keys!"

"Agreed, which is why both are on my ignore list over on AGS"

"You know.......I just may buy a ticket to that one and come all the way from WYO to watch. Two losers beating the s#!t out of each other!"

"All we can hope to do is prove that we are not all the same."

"Every school has an overzealous fan that act/looks like an a$$ we have MplsBison and you have ****"

"The main purpose of his posts IS TO PISS people off. He lives for it."

"I really have to wonder if he is just really stupid, desperate for attention, mentally challenged or all of the above."

"A part of me dies every time I read a post of his"


I'm especially fond of that last one.

[Go...gate]

You've inadvertently made the point that the PL does not have name recognition south of, say, Philadelphia. The Fordham point above is important--if the PL promotes itself as being the second choice to all things Ivy, it shouldn't be surprised if people think of it as a second choice, if they think of it at all. Ask a recruit in Georgia or Texas or California what they think about the prestige of the Patriot League, and you're likely to get a blank stare.

I don't think that "point" is correct. Simply put, I would not be so presumptious as to assume something I don't know, such as what recruiting power the PL has with prep schools outside of the NJ/NYC metropolitan area, Middle Atlantic States and New England. I do know the PL does have very good pull with prep schools in those three regions on a first-hand basis. I believe, but have no first-hand knowledge, that the PL gets its share of kids outside of those regions, as well.

[Bogus Megapardus]

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/08/28/drudge-siren.gif

. . . BREAKING NEWS . . . .

This morning on the Lafayette board, a well-informed poster is reporting that the scholarships are now a "done deal" at Colgate and that the coaching staff at Bucknell has been notified. The poster indicates that there is an agreement for scholarships "on all sides" according to sources that he views as "very, very reliable."

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

This morning in the Lafayette board, a well-informed poster is saying that the scholarships are now a "done deal" at Colgate and that the coaching staff at Bucknell has been notified. The poster indicates that there is an agreement for scholarships on all sides according to sources that he views as very, very reliable.

I saw that just a few minutes ago. Very interesting to say the least. I hope it's true. xprayx

[carney2]

I have mixed feelings, if true. The League will undoubtedly fare better, but it will not prove equally beneficial to all current League members.

[Sader87]

If it in fact is true, the league almost HAD to do it. The overall competitiveness both within and outside the PL could really not get much lower and stay D1 with a straight face.

[Franks Tanks]

If it in fact is true, the league almost HAD to do it. The overall competitiveness both within and outside the PL could really not get much lower and stay D1 with a straight face.

I guess you have to go back to complaining about other things.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I have mixed feelings, if true. The League will undoubtedly fare better, but it will not prove equally beneficial to all current League members.

The school this hurts the most is Fordham imo. I believe they hedged their bets on the fact the league would not offer schollies and they could just happily walk away. However, if the league does go for schollies than everything stays the same and they're still lagging behind the league in facilities and support from their administration. Given how poorly the school runs their athletic program they'll continue to bumble around in mediocrity. The basis i use for this is their move to the A10 15+ years. They've shown they have zero interest in seriously competing in the conference. In all honestly i wish the league would kick them out and go after a school like VCU or GMU. Fordham belongs in the PL as an all sports member imo.

[DFW HOYA]

The school this hurts the most is Fordham imo.

You're kidding, right? xbangx

[Fordham]

The school this hurts the most is Fordham imo. I believe they hedged their bets on the fact the league would not offer schollies and they could just happily walk away. However, if the league does go for schollies than everything stays the same and they're still lagging behind the league in facilities and support from their administration. Given how poorly the school runs their athletic program they'll continue to bumble around in mediocrity. The basis i use for this is their move to the A10 15+ years. They've shown they have zero interest in seriously competing in the conference. In all honestly i wish the league would kick them out and go after a school like VCU or GMU. Fordham belongs in the PL as an all sports member imo.We have the largest football budget in the PL. How do you reach the conclusion that we lack the support of the administration?!?! Basketball has been horrible ... hopefully that'll change under Pecora. Regardless, we have 2 PL titles and playoff appearances in the past decade. How many do you have?

The biggest reason we might have a lack of success is the move to a league-wide AI, not institutional support. Stop looking at basketball as a means to rip on the football program. Same school but different teams, different funding levels, different support, different results.

FWIW, if this is true it deserves its own thread imo.

[Bogus Megapardus]

FWIW, if this is true it deserves its own thread imo.



I figured a thread already entitled, "Patriot League Scholarships" would suffice. xlolx

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

We have the largest football budget in the PL. How do you reach the conclusion that we lack the support of the administration?!?! Basketball has been horrible ... hopefully that'll change under Pecora. Regardless, we have 2 PL titles and playoff appearances in the past decade. How many do you have?

The biggest reason we might have a lack of success is the move to a league-wide AI, not institutional support. Stop looking at basketball as a means to rip on the football program. Same school but different teams, different funding levels, different support, different results.

FWIW, if this is true it deserves its own thread imo.

If Fordham is indeed spending the most on their football program they're getting a poor return on their investment. Obviously spending money does not equal W's.

I just can't see this helping Fordham. Sorry. So you're saying the school administration does not care about basketball but does care about football? If so that's a pretty weak statement regarding the Fordham administration. At the end of the day with schollies i don't see how Fordham picks up any ground. They'll still have the second worst stadium situation in league and have a track record of mediocrity and that's being kind. Heck, they can't figure out the proper way to sell tickets at their games per the Fordham message board.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Two quick observations (assuming that this is true):

1) I do not buy that Fordham was engaging the Patriot League in a big game of chicken. Fordham could have just said that they were going to leave two years ago, and chose to not only stay, but to adhere to the Academic Index too. This development, if true, probably makes Fordham very, very happy, not thinking "their little plot to leave the league has been foiled."

2) As DFW is implying, if true, all eyes go to Georgetown. Will they increase their scholarship totals to 63 - at some point - and get the opportunity to play teams like Navy, Virginia, and Maryland? Will they mildly try to bring up the level of scholarships to compete? Or will they just pick up their ball and join an Eastern based non-scholarship D-I (Atlantic Sun?), or a limited-scholly league (the NEC)?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Incidentally, I have one source that places Femovich at Colgate this past Friday, which I think lends credence to the whole story. Apparently the Colgate board has also mentioned that the prexy made some sort of statement on scholarships that was posted on their Voy board, but I haven't been able to get on there to verify if it's true.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Two quick observations (assuming that this is true):

1) I do not buy that Fordham was engaging the Patriot League in a big game of chicken. Fordham could have just said that they were going to leave two years ago, and chose to not only stay, but to adhere to the Academic Index too. This development, if true, probably makes Fordham very, very happy, not thinking "their little plot to leave the league has been foiled."

I still believe this hurts Fordham. If the PL does not institute schollies then Fordham gains an advantage over the PL in recruiting. However, if the PL does go to scholarships then Fordham loses that advantage over Lehigh, Colgate, Lafayette etc. Now Fordham still has to come up with aways to get recruits to choose Fordham over their fellow PL members if they do indeed stay because everyone is once again on equal footing (perhaps). What it boils down to imo, is the hierarchary within the league does no change with the addition of schollies. All it does it help the league members compete with the CAA and NEC.

[carney2]

It will take a while to figure out who is helped and who is hurt. for my money:

Fordham breathes a big sigh of relief. If they've honestly evaluated their options, this is a God-send.

Georgetown is screwed, glued and tattooed unless they get off their dime. Not likely. The (not very) long term question is, Do they stay?

The others will thrive or not based on their own decisions. I pointed out on The Lafayette board that the Leopard powers that be are on record as being on board with whatever decision is made. One is however, more or less equally on board if you book passage in steerage or in a first class cabin.

My question is, How did this happen, if it has happened, without the discussion and blessing of the unholy fathers and mothers at their December meeting? If it was handled by late night phone calls, emails and clandestine meetings at seedy hotels in Schenectady and Scranton, why? Once I get past the euphoric feeling of "at last!" I am left with "Why Now," and "Why like this?"

[carney2]

Any chance that someone - Colgate would be a good guess for this scenario - said "We've done our internal evaluations and decided that we will be joining Fordham as a full scholarship football program immediately, regardless of the League decision in December.?"

[Go...gate]

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/08/28/drudge-siren.gif

. . . BREAKING NEWS . . . .

This morning on the Lafayette board, a well-informed poster is reporting that the scholarships are now a "done deal" at Colgate and that the coaching staff at Bucknell has been notified. The poster indicates that there is an agreement for scholarships "on all sides" according to sources that he views as "very, very reliable."

VoyForums Board?

[Go...gate]

The gosh darn VoyForums site is down again! To quote an angry John Wooden, "GOODNESS GRACIOUS SAKES ALIVE!!!!!"

For once and for all, the PL needs a quality chat page. How much to we have to kick in to put it on AGS?

[Go...gate]

We have the largest football budget in the PL. How do you reach the conclusion that we lack the support of the administration?!?! Basketball has been horrible ... hopefully that'll change under Pecora. Regardless, we have 2 PL titles and playoff appearances in the past decade. How many do you have?

The biggest reason we might have a lack of success is the move to a league-wide AI, not institutional support. Stop looking at basketball as a means to rip on the football program. Same school but different teams, different funding levels, different support, different results.

FWIW, if this is true it deserves its own thread imo.

If this means Fordham stays in the FB loop, I am very happy.

[Go...gate]

Two quick observations (assuming that this is true):

1) I do not buy that Fordham was engaging the Patriot League in a big game of chicken. Fordham could have just said that they were going to leave two years ago, and chose to not only stay, but to adhere to the Academic Index too. This development, if true, probably makes Fordham very, very happy, not thinking "their little plot to leave the league has been foiled."

2) As DFW is implying, if true, all eyes go to Georgetown. Will they increase their scholarship totals to 63 - at some point - and get the opportunity to play teams like Navy, Virginia, and Maryland? Will they mildly try to bring up the level of scholarships to compete? Or will they just pick up their ball and join an Eastern based non-scholarship D-I (Atlantic Sun?), or a limited-scholly league (the NEC)?

I think you hit it on the head, and I think Georgetown will regret the decision for many years to come.

[TheValleyRaider]

Any chance that someone - Colgate would be a good guess for this scenario - said "We've done our internal evaluations and decided that we will be joining Fordham as a full scholarship football program immediately, regardless of the League decision in December.?"

Doubtful, if the quote as posted on Lafayette's board is accurate. It would sound from there that our position is a done deal pro-scholarship, which tells me there will be a vote. What this means regarding the other schools is unclear, but this kind of pro-statement from Colgate could sway some others


VoyForums Board?

This quote is from Lafayette's board: http://lafayettesports.myfreeforum.org/forum1.php


The gosh darn VoyForums site is down again! To quote an angry John Wooden, "GOODNESS GRACIOUS SAKES ALIVE!!!!!"

I looked on ours earlier, and outside of the usual noise, no word except a thread where Herbst danced around the question by essentially saying: "We're having meetings"

I don't remember a date on the answer, but if Femovich was in Hamilton, that could be the "meetings" he was referring to, and it could very well be true. I'm optimistic for the timebeing

As for Fordham, I don't see this hurting them at all. Everything I've heard here suggests the Rams want to remain in the PL, and the addition of scholarships for Football will only strengthen those ties (Speculation hat on: maybe with an eye towards re-establishing full sports membership?). Their overall competitiveness will still be tied to the quality of coaches they hire and recruits they bring in

Georgetown is the real loser here, as this will certainly expand the competitive imbalance unless the Hoyas become capable of increasing their athletics money. This may wind up being a longer-term problem, but it may depend on how "anti-scholarship" the Georgetown administration is. If they truly want to hold to the non-scholarship model for Football (ie, if it's a philosophical as well as financial choice), then I imagine they'd be looking for a new home. If it's only financial, I'm not sure their ticket out the door is really punched yet xtwocentsx

[Neighbor2]

Sure hope this is true!

Finally, a serious attempt to be a legitimate player in FCS football. To me, the drop in attendance indicated (at least in the Lehigh Valley) there is no market for "moral" victories and losses.

[Bogus Megapardus]

With this latest tidbit of information, I'd like to revisit the issue of how the Patriot keeps both Fordham and Georgetown. These schools are natural football rivals and both obviously fit in the academic mold cast by the league (saving Sader87's square peg/round hole chestnut for later).

Fordham, obviously, has been more than competitive in the league over the last decade. But all of a sudden Georgetown is as well. I want a Patriot league with both included as football members (and ideally as full members but that's an issue for another day).

How do we reconcile the disparity given the likelihood of scholarships? Is there a chance that we lose both?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

If Fordham stays in the PL for football they should return to the league as an all sports member. Their time in the A10 has been an absolute disaster. Their bball program in the A10 has been dealing with the same struggles Gtown football has faced in the A10. Fordham lacks the facilities and commitment from the school to be competitive in the league. The PL would be a much much better fit all the way around.

[Go...gate]

If Fordham stays in the PL for football they should return to the league as an all sports member. Their time in the A10 has been an absolute disaster. Their bball program in the A10 has been dealing with the same struggles Gtown football has faced in the PL. Fordham lacks the facilities and commitment from the school to be competitive in the league. The PL would be a much much better fit all the way around.

But they are dead set against any all-sports movie to the PL. Are we suggesting it is time we bit the bullet and said to all members save USNA and USMA, "if you are with us for FB, you must be with us for everything else?"

[carney2]

Doubtful, if the quote as posted on Lafayette's board is accurate. It would sound from there that our position is a done deal pro-scholarship, which tells me there will be a vote. What this means regarding the other schools is unclear, but this kind of pro-statement from Colgate could sway some others



This quote is from Lafayette's board: http://lafayettesports.myfreeforum.org/forum1.php


VR, you need to get with the program, lad. I know that it's all rumor and innuendo at this point, but this board is now caught up in the "news" that football scholarships are a DONE DEAL. Not a done deal at Colgate. A done deal for the Patriot League! If that's true, what's the vote and who needs to be swayed?

[Fordham]

The school this hurts the most is Fordham imo.

all time dumbest statement since I've been on AGS, btw. All time

Talk to DFW if you want to know why.

I understand you're a Temple fan and that's why you're po'd about our A10 hoops performance but stop being such a knucklehead that you'd make a colossally stupid statement like this.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

all time dumbest statement since I've been on AGS, btw. All time

Talk to DFW if you want to know why.

I understand you're a Temple fan and that's why you're po'd about our A10 hoops performance but stop being such a knucklehead that you'd make a colossally stupid statement like this.

I don't see how hard this to understand. If Fordham bolts and the PL stays under their current financial aid structure then Fordham gets a leg up on all the PL teams. However, if the PL decides to go with schollies Fordham loses the advantage they would have gained. Meaning, the PL continues their slide to irrelevance while Fordham moves forward in the schollie world. Now, Fordham just lost that advantage if the PL does indeed go for schollies. For the life of me i don't understand how hard that concept is to comprehend. Seems like common sense to me.

[Fordham]

I don't see how hard this to understand. If Fordham bolts and the PL stays under their current financial aid structure then Fordham gets a leg up on all the PL teams. However, if the PL decides to go with schollies Fordham loses the advantage they would have gained. For the life of me i don't understand how hard that concept is to comprehend.

If Fordham bolts the PL then who cares how we fare v. PL teams?

Again, your words were that Fordham will fare the worst if the PL goes scholarship. How can anyone with even the most remote semblance of a brain ever write those words given that Georgetown is in the league? Give us the breakdown on how Gtown is better off than Fordham if this move is true.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

If Fordham bolts the PL then who cares how we fare v. PL teams?

Again, your words were that Fordham will fare the worst if the PL goes scholarship. How can anyone with even the most remote semblance of a brain ever write those words given that Georgetown is in the league? Give us the breakdown on how Gtown is better off than Fordham if this move is true.

Because Georgetown didn't force the issue. It was Fordham who decided to give the league the ultimatum. Do you believe that when Fordham said they were going to offer schollies that they felt the PL would vote yes? I just don't see how Fordham doesn't lose out when they could have left 5 teams in the dust when it comes to schollies. That's a huge, huge advantage they just lost in terms of recruiting.

[Fordham]

Because Georgetown didn't force the issue. It was Fordham who decided to give the league the ultimatum. Do you believe that when Fordham said they were going to offer schollies that they felt the PL would vote yes? I just don't see how Fordham doesn't lose out when they could have left 5 teams in the dust when it comes to schollies. That's a huge, huge advantage they just lost in terms of recruiting.

Ok ... now ask yourself why Gtown wasn't forcing the scholarship issue ...

it's ok, we'll wait

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Ok ... now ask yourself why Gtown wasn't forcing the scholarship issue ...

it's ok, we'll wait

Because they don't have the money? Because they don't care? They've lagged behind the rest of the league for nearly a decade now. How anyone can be surprised about their stance on schollies at this point is beyond me. They seem content just to field a football team. Georgetown has shown no real commitment to succeed so i don't see how anything changes for them. It seems like they'll continue down the path they're currently on. They seem happy with it. Or at the very least, content.

Do you not agree that Fordham would have gained an advantage on the PL schools had they left and become full schollies while the current members stayed with the status quo? Since you don't seem to agree, atleast imo, i'd like to know your reasoning why not.

[Go...gate]

Because Georgetown didn't force the issue. It was Fordham who decided to give the league the ultimatum. Do you believe that when Fordham said they were going to offer schollies that they felt the PL would vote yes? I just don't see how Fordham doesn't lose out when they could have left 5 teams in the dust when it comes to schollies. That's a huge, huge advantage they just lost in terms of recruiting.

Wait a minute. The PL already short-hauled itself with HC FB on this issue from 1986-1992. They don't want that to happen again.

[DFW HOYA]

How anyone can be surprised about their stance on schollies at this point is beyond me. They seem content just to field a football team. Georgetown has shown no real commitment to succeed so i don't see how anything changes for them.

If you really don't know or understand the situation you are trying to describe, it's OK to say so.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

If you really don't know or understand the situation you are trying to describe, it's OK to say so.

DFW i know Georgetowns financial situation. That is the main reason.

[Go...gate]

DFW i know Georgetowns financial situation. That is the main reason.

OK, what is it?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

OK, what is it?

The school is financially stressed and figure that it would be best to put what available resources they do have in other things besides sports. That combined with having an expansive athletic program that is draining an almost non existent athletic budget means the Hoyas are facing serious financial problems.

No matter what, isn't this a Georgetown issue? Doesn't this come back to a "biting off more than you can chew" problem? My guess is that past decisions by the Georgetown administration, like joining the PL among other things, have contributed to the problem.

['Gate93]

What a difference a day makes. Voy forum down to boot!

Would anyone from Lafayette fill me in on why the school would potentially vote no, when Tavani appears to think that scholarships are inevitable - and necessary - for the success of the League? If others support it, why not support them?

I don't know how informed Colgate's new Prez is, but posters keep warning us about his lack of genuine, athletic support. He seems glad to acknowledge the 100% graduation rate and may prefer academic integrity over scholarships.

[DFW HOYA]

The school is financially stressed and figure that it would be best to put what available resources they do have in other things besides sports. That combined with having an expansive athletic program that is draining an almost non existent athletic budget means the Hoyas are facing serious financial problems.

To say that there is an "almost non existent athletic budget" is certainly not accurate--Georgetown has a $29 million athletic budget, comparable to C-USA schools like Houston and East Carolina. But football certainly doesn't have access to those numbers in ways other schools enjoy with its budgets. I'll try to explain this in more detail over the next couple of days.

[Sader87]

I know it's not officially official until December (?)...but will next year's freshmen class be on scholarship if this goes through? Doesn't leave much time to recruit etc

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

No, that's not quite it. To say that there is an "almost non existent athletic budget" is certainly not accurate--Georgetown has a $29 million athletic budget, comparable to C-USA schools like Houston and East Carolina. Nor was joining the PL a "biting off more than [one can] chew" issue. I'll try to explain this in the next couple of days.

DFW would you not agree that Georgetown, for whatever reason, has struggled to compete in the PL? Now, if the league does offer schollies would you agree that Georgetown will continue to struggle should they remain in the league but without an increase in financial commitment? If the answer is yes and yes then relative to their current success i'm not sure how the addition of schollies really hurts the Hoyas. Fordham on the other hand could have left all five schools in the dust, perhaps(Towson), had the PL remained on their current path. Now those five, or four, schools have decided to go all in with the same hand as the Rams. From a competitive standpoint doesn't that hurt Fordham more than Georgetown in relation to where they both currently stand?

[Go...gate]

DFW would you not agree that Georgetown, for whatever reason, has struggled to compete in the PL? Now, if the league does offer schollies would you agree that Georgetown will continue to struggle should they remain in the league but without an increase in financial commitment? If the answer is yes and yes then relative to their current success i'm not sure how the addition of schollies really hurts the Hoyas. Fordham on the other hand could have left all five schools in the dust, perhaps(Towson), had the PL remained on their current path. Now those five, or four, schools have decided to go all in with the same hand as the Rams. From a competitive standpoint doesn't that hurt Fordham more than Georgetown in relation to where they both currently stand?

Just one point of clarification. Towson (which really helped the league when Fordham pondered leaving altogether in 1995) left the PL in 2001 because it wanted to go scholarship and the PL did not. But make no mistake - there were members of the Towson community that would have been happy to stay in the PL had some scholarship accomodation been made. Towson, in general, sees itself as a more academically selective public institution and was happy to be affiliated with academically strong instituitions such as our own. If we are indeed going scholarship, it is ironic, as it most assuredly is for schools such as Hofstra, who stood on their heads to get in the PL.

Please proceed. This is a great thread.

[CFBfan]

DFW would you not agree that Georgetown, for whatever reason, has struggled to compete in the PL? Now, if the league does offer schollies would you agree that Georgetown will continue to struggle should they remain in the league but without an increase in financial commitment? If the answer is yes and yes then relative to their current success i'm not sure how the addition of schollies really hurts the Hoyas. Fordham on the other hand could have left all five schools in the dust, perhaps(Towson), had the PL remained on their current path. Now those five, or four, schools have decided to go all in with the same hand as the Rams. From a competitive standpoint doesn't that hurt Fordham more than Georgetown in relation to where they both currently stand?

In a pre game conversation a few weeks ago with the GU AD he said that if the PL becomes a scholarship league we (GU) will have to look at other options.

[CFBfan]

Because they don't have the money? Because they don't care? They've lagged behind the rest of the league for nearly a decade now. How anyone can be surprised about their stance on schollies at this point is beyond me. They seem content just to field a football team. Georgetown has shown no real commitment to succeed so i don't see how anything changes for them. It seems like they'll continue down the path they're currently on. They seem happy with it. Or at the very least, content.

Do you not agree that Fordham would have gained an advantage on the PL schools had they left and become full schollies while the current members stayed with the status quo? Since you don't seem to agree, atleast imo, i'd like to know your reasoning why not.

FU has a pretty good nose tackle who is on scholarship....see if anyone on the FU staff wants to be honest and tell what his academic credentials are? suffice it to say that he would not even "get a sniff" from any other PL program so I'm not sure how disadvantaged FU is since they are now taking players no other PL scholl would.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

I will be curious, as we approach December, to see how Bucknell and its new President Bravman play the scholarship question. Bravman comes from Stanford and seems familiar with the mix of high performance scholarship atheletics and elite undergraduate private education, though Bucknell's endowment is nothing like Leland Stanford's legacy. From the media surrounding his arrival, he seems like a can-do guy and able to walk and chew gum.
While it is obvious that any diehard football supporting donors have either been cowed or driven off, it would seem difficult to say Stanford can have scholarship football and Bucknell no. Further, he has to deal with the 50th anniversaries of Bucknell's Lambert Cup winners in 1960 and 1964. Those men from 1960 were on campus this past weekend. Having worked in Annual Giving, Alumni Relations and for the SID as an undergrad, I met a few of those guys and came away impressed. 30 years later, I am sure they still impress, and I am hoping they represented what was possible on the gridiron in Lewisburg.

Bucknell won eight or nine Patriot League championships last year, and their 16th Presidents' Cup in the 20 years of the conference, but while winning the women's cross-country, indoor track, outdoor track and rowing titles is great, and NCAA tourney slots in men's soccer, baseball and softball made for some bracket-watching fun for sports nerds like me, nothing will unify the University like winning in hoops and football. They can milk that Kansas win just so long...

The mathematics will have to be creative-- Bucknell now has more women undergrads than men, and has added all of the 'usual' add-on women's sports like rowing and golf. I expect that most of the football team, like the rest of the students, receives at least partial financial aid on need. Bravman's an engineer-- maybe he can find the calculation that allows private schools to offer football scholarships and prosper.

The Patriot League has become an asset for Bucknell. Actions must be taken to ensure we preserve that asset. These schools first came together to play football. We strive to compete nationally in all sports with some success. Fordham simply called it as it had become.

Why are football players now the only ones forbidden talent scholarships for playing their sport? If the PL was kicking tail in football without scholarships, it would still be a question.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Would anyone from Lafayette fill me in on why the school would potentially vote no, when Tavani appears to think that scholarships are inevitable - and necessary - for the success of the League?


Lafayette could vote "no" even if it knows the scholarships were inevitable in order to save face with a recalcitrant faculty.

[Fordham]

FU has a pretty good nose tackle who is on scholarship....see if anyone on the FU staff wants to be honest and tell what his academic credentials are? suffice it to say that he would not even "get a sniff" from any other PL program so I'm not sure how disadvantaged FU is since they are now taking players no other PL scholl would. That's a dirtbag post, CFB... an anonymous poster ripping on college frosh and and also accusing our program of cheating yet offering no proof to back up the claim. And people wonder why some Fordham fans have PL fatigue!

[Bogus Megapardus]

That's a dirtbag post, CFB... an anonymous poster ripping on college frosh and and also accusing our program of cheating yet offering no proof to back up the claim. And people wonder why some Fordham fans have PL fatigue!

From what little I know, Fordham remains compliant with the academic index presumably because it wants to preserve the option of remaining in the Patriot for football. I am aware of no reason why the current Fordham football team is not fully compliant. If the Rams have one or two players in the lower band, so be it. Every member has the same option. I'm sure Fordham as the same tugs-o-war between the AD and admissions as have every other league member.

The thing I have to wonder about is whether Fordham is experiencing back pressure from the rest of the league to be an all-sports member.

[Fordham]

Because they don't have the money? Because they don't care? They've lagged behind the rest of the league for nearly a decade now. How anyone can be surprised about their stance on schollies at this point is beyond me. They seem content just to field a football team. Georgetown has shown no real commitment to succeed so i don't see how anything changes for them. It seems like they'll continue down the path they're currently on. They seem happy with it. Or at the very least, content.

Do you not agree that Fordham would have gained an advantage on the PL schools had they left and become full schollies while the current members stayed with the status quo? Since you don't seem to agree, atleast imo, i'd like to know your reasoning why not. Go Lehigh, you're not getting it. You stated that Fordham will suffer the most if the PL adopts scholarships and that's simply not the case. It squarely puts Gtown in the cross hairs and has the most detrimental impact on their program. I hope they respond by increasing funding and end up doing well but it clearly would be better for them if the PL stayed non-scholarship. Again, my challeng here was simply with your statement that we are the clear losers in this decision (if it's true).

On the field of play, Fordham would clearly have gained an advantage on a non-scholarship PL but who cares? If we left the PL b/c they stayed non scholarship there is no one at Fordham that would be using the PL as any type of measuring stick - we would be focused on either our new conference or other full scholarship FCS teams.

Overall it's a positive for Fordham. The downside is remaining in a league that has the constraints of a league-wide AI ... it certainly makes things more difficult for us. The upside is that we'll have more certainty about our football future by having a conference affiliation for more than just the short term. It also keeps us affiliated with great schools.

From my personal standpoint, while I love and respect the PL schools, the combo of the AI (league not individual) along with having lost faith that the league will ever try to realize its potential by being something other than Ivy-light, means I'd be fine with Fordham making a move to a different situation if there was something worthwhile to go to.

Most important, though, in my personal conversations with Coach Masella as well as the admin - they were hoping for a PL with scholarships as their best case scenario for the program. Masella told me he felt he could still compete with the AI but he couldn't compete with the AI and no scholarships. In the grand scheme of things, theirs is the opinion on the topic that matters ... not mine and not yours.

[carney2]

Would anyone from Lafayette fill me in on why the school would potentially vote no, when Tavani appears to think that scholarships are inevitable - and necessary - for the success of the League? If others support it, why not support them?

I am astounded by the asinine who's worse off, Georgetown or Fordham debate. This is me ignoring it.

As to the question at hand, and elaborating on what Bogie has already said:

1. Money! I am convinced that it will cost Lafayette a minimum of $1.2 million PER YEAR to go scholarship, primarily because of TITLE IX issues. You say "everyone has Title IX issues?" Lafayette's are extreme, to say the least, due primarily to loopholing the system for the last 20 years or so.

2. Bogie is correct in his argument that there needs to be a lot of face saving with the faculty and other anti athletics constituencies within the College community. The cockamamie system of "governance" that passes for leadership and administration in today's academy has run amuk at Lafayette. We are now approaching year 20 where the faculty has had the upper hand. They have come to see it as their rightful place in this universe. They need to be appeased or this administration cannot survive. Unbelievably, jobs, careers and legacies are on the line here. President Weiss probably used up all of his goodwill and negotiating capital when he "caved" on basketball scholarships. He has very little wiggle room.

3. This would be just another illogical decision that is accepted as common sense on Easton's College Hill. Not so different from other decisions that have been made by this bunch along the way.

The big question is not "Will Lafayette vote no?" This is a given. Nor is it "Why will they vote no." I hope I have scratched enough of the surface above to provide at least a glimpse into the dark soul of the College. No, the real question is "How will they handle the scholarship issue once it arrives?" This one fills me with fear and dread.

[Doc QB]

I played in a Johns Hopkins golf outing few weeks back, one of the asst ADs at Hopkins is a former Georgetown player, asst football coach, and athletic dept assistant, and I learned a TON about GU's football/money woes. And though it has been spoken of here endlessly, from his inside information, it is easy to see that GU can not compete money wise.

At one time, PL teams could offer up to 13 full tuition/board equivs a class, or I think 57 total on the roster. Not all do, and the way they are broken up among a roster of close to 80-100 players differs league wide. Georgetown doesn't even offer 25. And that is not total packages to be broken up. It is 25 players who get some aid for football, in the form of a small grant on top of the usual financial package/award (mostly loans) via the school general aid application and policies. How they could ramp up from this meager amount is really the economic death knell for the Hoyas. It is really a shame, too, because the gap present now will broaden significantly. This info is from a GU insider, a great guy, who still remembers the Multisport facility being promised to him as a recruit in mid 90's.

[MplsBison]

I am astounded by the asinine who's worse off, Georgetown or Fordham debate. This is me ignoring it.

As to the question at hand, and elaborating on what Bogie has already said:

1. Money! I am convinced that it will cost Lafayette a minimum of $1.2 million PER YEAR to go scholarship, primarily because of TITLE IX issues. You say "everyone has Title IX issues?" Lafayette's are extreme, to say the least, due primarily to loopholing the system for the last 20 years or so.

2. Bogie is correct in his argument that there needs to be a lot of face saving with the faculty and other anti athletics constituencies within the College community. The cockamamie system of "governance" that passes for leadership and administration in today's academy has run amuk at Lafayette. We are now approaching year 20 where the faculty has had the upper hand. They have come to see it as their rightful place in this universe. They need to be appeased or this administration cannot survive. Unbelievably, jobs, careers and legacies are on the line here. President Weiss probably used up all of his goodwill and negotiating capital when he "caved" on basketball scholarships. He has very little wiggle room.

3. This would be just another illogical decision that is accepted as common sense on Easton's College Hill. Not so different from other decisions that have been made by this bunch along the way.

The big question is not "Will Lafayette vote no?" This is a given. Nor is it "Why will they vote no." I hope I have scratched enough of the surface above to provide at least a glimpse into the dark soul of the College. No, the real question is "How will they handle the scholarship issue once it arrives?" This one fills me with fear and dread.

Would they drop down to DIII?

Note - since Ivy football doesn't go to the playoffs, they could schedule still schedule a DIII Lafayette if they wanted.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I am astounded by the asinine who's worse off, Georgetown or Fordham debate. This is me ignoring it.

As to the question at hand, and elaborating on what Bogie has already said:

1. Money! I am convinced that it will cost Lafayette a minimum of $1.2 million PER YEAR to go scholarship, primarily because of TITLE IX issues. You say "everyone has Title IX issues?" Lafayette's are extreme, to say the least, due primarily to loopholing the system for the last 20 years or so.

2. Bogie is correct in his argument that there needs to be a lot of face saving with the faculty and other anti athletics constituencies within the College community. The cockamamie system of "governance" that passes for leadership and administration in today's academy has run amuk at Lafayette. We are now approaching year 20 where the faculty has had the upper hand. They have come to see it as their rightful place in this universe. They need to be appeased or this administration cannot survive. Unbelievably, jobs, careers and legacies are on the line here. President Weiss probably used up all of his goodwill and negotiating capital when he "caved" on basketball scholarships. He has very little wiggle room.

3. This would be just another illogical decision that is accepted as common sense on Easton's College Hill. Not so different from other decisions that have been made by this bunch along the way.

The big question is not "Will Lafayette vote no?" This is a given. Nor is it "Why will they vote no." I hope I have scratched enough of the surface above to provide at least a glimpse into the dark soul of the College. No, the real question is "How will they handle the scholarship issue once it arrives?" This one fills me with fear and dread.

Lafayette will do what it takes to "compete" with Lehigh, if that means endowing scholarships. They are not going to hamstring themselves over principle if it means potential beatdowns against the Brown & White. I've seen Kirby and Fisher Field. These are not athletic facilities that are there to endure Patriot League beatdowns from their bitter rivals.

[Go...gate]

I played in a Johns Hopkins golf outing few weeks back, one of the asst ADs at Hopkins is a former Georgetown player, asst football coach, and athletic dept assistant, and I learned a TON about GU's football/money woes. And though it has been spoken of here endlessly, from his inside information, it is easy to see that GU can not compete money wise.

At one time, PL teams could offer up to 13 full tuition/board equivs a class, or I think 57 total on the roster. Not all do, and the way they are broken up among a roster of close to 80-100 players differs league wide. Georgetown doesn't even offer 25. And that is not total packages to be broken up. It is 25 players who get some aid for football, in the form of a small grant on top of the usual financial package/award (mostly loans) via the school general aid application and policies. How they could ramp up from this meager amount is really the economic death knell for the Hoyas. It is really a shame, too, because the gap present now will broaden significantly. This info is from a GU insider, a great guy, who still remembers the Multisport facility being promised to him as a recruit in mid 90's.

Ouch.

[carney2]

Lafayette will do what it takes to "compete" with Lehigh, if that means endowing scholarships. They are not going to hamstring themselves over principle if it means potential beatdowns against the Brown & White. I've seen Kirby and Fisher Field. These are not athletic facilities that are there to endure Patriot League beatdowns from their bitter rivals.

Would that it were that simple. The political dynamics do not appear to be in favor of what it takes to be "competitive." Besides, significant (color that poserful) portions of the College community have neither concern nor regard for that Saturday before Thanksgiving.

As an example of the state of this universe I point to a discussion on the Lafayette board that asks the question, How/why did Lafayette shrink from 54 equivalencies 2 or 3 years ago to a reported 42 today? It is supposedly all part of the reaction ot the turn in the economy, but, think about it, we are merely talking about the distribution of need based financial aid to the same number of incoming freshmen as in prior years. How much money is saved by declaring that football players will get less of the pot? Perhaps the pot shrunk. Perhaps a statement is being made that athletics must bear a disproportionate share of the pain. Either way, it is not a promising sign for the advent of scholarships. I do not currently see this going well for the Pards. When you ask which school will be adversely affected by scholarships, include Lafayette in the discussion. The decision makers appear more and more dug in on this issue.

[bison137]

Would they drop down to DIII?




I assume you're joking. You can't be that ignorant.

['Gate93]

Bucknell won eight or nine Patriot League championships last year, and their 16th Presidents' Cup in the 20 years of the conference, but while winning the women's cross-country, indoor track, outdoor track and rowing titles is great, and NCAA tourney slots in men's soccer, baseball and softball made for some bracket-watching fun for sports nerds like me, nothing will unify the University like winning in hoops and football. They can milk that Kansas win just so long...

LOL...any high-profile win or better-than-average season can only have so many long-lasting effects. 'Gate's national title run in '03 didn't do as much for the school as I thought it would with regard to recruits, future team performance/success, or applications.

[Go...gate]

Go Lehigh, you're not getting it. You stated that Fordham will suffer the most if the PL adopts scholarships and that's simply not the case. It squarely puts Gtown in the cross hairs and has the most detrimental impact on their program. I hope they respond by increasing funding and end up doing well but it clearly would be better for them if the PL stayed non-scholarship. Again, my challeng here was simply with your statement that we are the clear losers in this decision (if it's true).

On the field of play, Fordham would clearly have gained an advantage on a non-scholarship PL but who cares? If we left the PL b/c they stayed non scholarship there is no one at Fordham that would be using the PL as any type of measuring stick - we would be focused on either our new conference or other full scholarship FCS teams.

Overall it's a positive for Fordham. The downside is remaining in a league that has the constraints of a league-wide AI ... it certainly makes things more difficult for us. The upside is that we'll have more certainty about our football future by having a conference affiliation for more than just the short term. It also keeps us affiliated with great schools.

From my personal standpoint, while I love and respect the PL schools, the combo of the AI (league not individual) along with having lost faith that the league will ever try to realize its potential by being something other than Ivy-light, means I'd be fine with Fordham making a move to a different situation if there was something worthwhile to go to.

Most important, though, in my personal conversations with Coach Masella as well as the admin - they were hoping for a PL with scholarships as their best case scenario for the program. Masella told me he felt he could still compete with the AI but he couldn't compete with the AI and no scholarships. In the grand scheme of things, theirs is the opinion on the topic that matters ... not mine and not yours.

I was on the Fordham Board for the first time in a while and the impression seems very strong (at least from Rambacker, who is a very passionate Fordham and seems to have plenty of like-minded colleagues) that they REALLY don't want an AI. Indeed, it sounds like a deal-breaker. I guess I'm confused, and maybe even a little troubled. I always thought that scholarships themselves were the key. But now it seems like the ante is being upped, as if Fordham has the PL over a barrel. I hope I'm wrong. If the reality (as Bogus has opined many times to my dismay) is that the Rams just don't want the PL anymore, maybe it is time we started working on a exit strategy for the Rams. I, for one, believe Fordham will regret such a decision.

[ngineer]

I was on the Fordham Board for the first time in a while and the impression seems very strong (at least from Rambacker, who is a very passionate Fordham and seems to have plenty of like-minded colleagues) that they REALLY don't want an AI. Indeed, it sounds like a deal-breaker. I guess I'm confused, and maybe even a little troubled. I always thought that scholarships themselves were the key. But now it seems like the ante is being upped, as if Fordham has the PL over a barrel. I hope I'm wrong. If the reality (as Bogus has opined many times to my dismay) is that the Rams just don't want the PL anymore, maybe it is time we started working on a exit strategy for the Rams. I, for one, believe Fordham will regret such a decision.

If the AI is THE problem, then the Rams are off to the NEC. I don't see the PL giving on that one as having consistent academics for all athletes is a bigger cornerstone than the manner of financial aid.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I thought the PL going to scholarships was the best thing for Fordham? I read their board regularly and i based my opinion on what's posted there. I'm telling you a lot of them want out of the PL no matter what. Everyone called me an idiot but i'll be here to see how this plays out.

[Go...gate]

I thought the PL going to scholarships was the best thing for Fordham? I read their board regularly and i based my opinion on what's posted there. I'm telling you a lot of them want out of the PL no matter what. Everyone called me an idiot but i'll be here to see how this plays out.

I had had some trouble logging on for a while and finally got it straightened out. Now that I have seen the board, I agree wholeheartedly with you. The hostility to the PL seems very strong.

[Go...gate]

If the AI is THE problem, then the Rams are off to the NEC. I don't see the PL giving on that one as having consistent academics for all athletes is a bigger cornerstone than the manner of financial aid.

So maybe the bottom line is that we have to really bring in a new, all-sports school (and not Richmond or W & M - realism, please). Anybody have information for VMI in Lexington, VA?

[Fordham]

I was on the Fordham Board for the first time in a while and the impression seems very strong (at least from Rambacker, who is a very passionate Fordham and seems to have plenty of like-minded colleagues) that they REALLY don't want an AI. Indeed, it sounds like a deal-breaker. I guess I'm confused, and maybe even a little troubled. I always thought that scholarships themselves were the key. But now it seems like the ante is being upped, as if Fordham has the PL over a barrel. I hope I'm wrong. If the reality (as Bogus has opined many times to my dismay) is that the Rams just don't want the PL anymore, maybe it is time we started working on a exit strategy for the Rams. I, for one, believe Fordham will regret such a decision.
You're taking the feelings of less than a dozen guys posting anonymously on a message board as revealing our intentions more than what I wrote about Masella's comments on the matter? xconfusedx

The board is about 80% hoops supporters, most of whom mark the demise of our school as a competitive program with the moment we moved to the PL ... and who will always remember that our push for scholarships was met with a shrug while 2 years later the same push by HC led to the league supporting the idea. For a bunch of those guys the PL is forever damaged goods. Doesn't mean our AD is showing his hand by posting as Rambacker.

[ngineer]

So maybe the bottom line is that we have to really bring in a new, all-sports school (and not Richmond or W & M - realisim, please). Anybody have information for VMI in Lexington, VA?

No info, but I would agree they'd be a likely candidate. Gives G'town a regional rival, they're small, and would give Army and Navy another military rival as an 'all-sports' member. I think there are a few other candidates as well and UR, VU, or WM would only make sense if the PL went to scholarships, which now appears more unlikely. I think Marist is probably a candidate considering their recent and frequent games with PL schools.

[CFBfan]

You're taking the feelings of less than a dozen guys posting anonymously on a message board as revealing our intentions more than what I wrote about Masella's comments on the matter? xconfusedx

The board is about 80% hoops supporters, most of whom mark the demise of our school as a competitive program with the moment we moved to the PL ... and who will always remember that our push for scholarships was met with a shrug while 2 years later the same push by HC led to the league supporting the idea. For a bunch of those guys the PL is forever damaged goods. Doesn't mean our AD is showing his hand by posting as Rambacker.

I said last year that FU wants out of the PL and into another league (that came from a Masella "confidant") this is still the case and sometimes info from "the horse's mouth isn't as credible as info from those that are close to "the horse"
i apologize for exposing an individual player by posotion in a previous post on this thread, it does however reveal the intention of FU's direction with recruiting they HATE the AI!!!

[Ken_Z]

Rambacker is a passionate Fordham supporter, however, his modus operandi is, if i repeat my postion often enough it will become a fact. he does not speak for the school.

if scholarships are approved, it is only reasonable to believe that Fordham has commited to the league. we may curse the deliberate pace of process by our leaders, we may disagree with some (many) of their decisions, but they are not so foolish as to move forward without knowing how the member schools will respond for at least some reasonable time horizon.

[carney2]

My belief has always been that scholarships would be enough to keep Fordham at home. Throw in a school by school, rather than a League-wide, AI, and I see them happier than the proverbial pig in slop. As for the Fordham folks who are ticked off at the PL because their call for basketball scholarships was ignored while, two years later, Holy Cross's was acknowledged and implemented, I say, those who do not learn their history are doomed to repeat it. They either choose to ignore, or do not know, the facts. For instance - and only one for instance - in the case of Holy Cross, Army, with no real horse in the race, cast its lot with the 'saders, threatening to bring the entire League crashing to the ground. Frankly, I blame Fordham for its sad sack basketball program. They should have and could have sought support and alliances in their scholarship quest instead of going it alone. If they take their (foot)ball and leave, I honestly expect that they will experience more of the same. There is no perfect home for Fordham football, but there is nothing better than the Patriot League at the moment - and everything else is obviously worse.

[LUHawker]

No info, but I would agree they'd be a likely candidate. Gives G'town a regional rival, they're small, and would give Army and Navy another military rival as an 'all-sports' member. I think there are a few other candidates as well and UR, VU, or WM would only make sense if the PL went to scholarships, which now appears more unlikely. I think Marist is probably a candidate considering their recent and frequent games with PL schools.

Engineer, everything that has been posted recently suggests schollies are coming so I don't get your comment that schollies now appear unlikely. Perhaps I am reading what i want to hear but signs point towards schollies not against.

[RichH2]

It would seem that merit aid may indded be in the offing in some form or another. I cannot verify the existence of any informal "go ahead" to coaches recruiting this yr. but checking in with a few of my friends who coach HS ball, kids are being made aware of merit aid from PL schools. I will not speculate whether some coaches are jumping the gun or the word is really out.

[DFW HOYA]

Remember, there are probably three votes, not one, pending at the meeting.

1. The first is an operational bylaws change to remove the exception for football aid different from that of the league as a whole. (The bylaws are online if you want to read them.) Note that the rules specifically require a majority vote of all members, so in this case, six of 10 votes (8 regular members plus 2 associate members. For argument's sake, assume USMA and USNA vote "yes", which would require approval from four of the seven football schools.

2. The second vote is to reestablish Fordham's eligibility past 2012. Associate members are renewed on three year terms and must give one year's notice if they don't plan to renew. Depending on the timeframe, Fordham and/or Georgetown could opt out sometime after 2012, so the league would need some commitment from Fordham past 2012 at this time.

3. The third vote is to set a timetable to introduce scholarships, and here's where it gets tricky for the other five that would plan to do so. If a school (for example, Bucknell) moved to establish a slower approach (adding 10 per year), would the five other scholarship schools be two years behind through 2018 as a result of Fordham's previous offers to the high school classes of 2010 and 2011? Would Fordham accept being ineligible through 2014 or 2015 as the other five schools ramp up? Probably not.

I would not see AI changes on the agenda so any grumbling by Fordham fans on the subject probably doesn't make it to this meeting.

[Go...gate]

If this unpleasant episode is going to end, I hope one other thing comes out of it. That is a commitment by all (remaining) members to the future of the league. IMO, the scholarship situation, the disaffection of at least some of Fordham's stakeholders (mostly their alumni) and the Georgetown funding problems (or refusal to fund) have really hurt the conference in the past half-decade. I really think we need members that are fully committed to being in, and sharing responsibility for, the league's survival.

[DFW HOYA]

If this unpleasant episode is going to end, I hope one other thing comes out of it. That is a commitment by all (remaining) members to the future of the league. IMO, the scholarship situation, the disaffection of at least some of Fordham's stakeholders (mostly their alumni) and the Georgetown funding problems (or refusal to fund) have really hurt the conference in the past half-decade. I really think we need members that are fully committed to being in, and sharing responsibility for, the league's survival.

I've read nothing that says that Georgetown is "refusing" to fund football. But if you want "members that are fully committed" to the league as it is currently structured, you may be left with four or five when all is said and done.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

It would be nice if the PL stopped thumbing its nose at state schools. UNH and Maine would be outstanding all sports members imo. Their outstanding academic schools and fit in with the regional identity of the league. Maine is about the same size at Georgetown and UNH isn't that large either, about 12k undergrads. It's my belief both schools would welcome an invite assuming they felt they could remain competitive nationally. I think the diversity of great private and public institutions would only strengthen the PL "brand". Does SUNY-Cornell really take away from the Ivies? ;)

[Bogus Megapardus]

It would be nice if the PL stopped thumbing its nose at state schools. UNH and Maine would be outstanding all sports members imo. Their outstanding academic schools and fit in with the regional identity of the league. Maine is about the same size at Georgetown and UNH isn't that large either, about 12k undergrads. It's my belief both schools would welcome an invite assuming they felt they could remain competitively nationally. I think the diversity of great private and public institutions would only strengthen the PL "brand". Does SUNY-Cornell really take away from the Ivies? ;)

As best as I can tell one issue (perhaps one amongst equals) with public schools has been tuition competitiveness. The public schools (e.g. Towson) could get the same guy for less. (Of course that would have been so as well with W&M, which was on board at the beginning.)

With scholarships that becomes much less of an issue for the parents of potential recruits.

But the publics still would probably have to be state flagships.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As best as I can tell one issue (perhaps one amongst equals) with public schools has been tuition competitiveness. The public schools (e.g. Towson) could get the same guy for less. (Of course that would have been so as well with W&M, which was on board at the beginning.)

With scholarships that becomes much less of an issue for the parents of potential recruits.

But the publics still would probably have to be state flagships.

In-state? Sure. But out-of-state - especially for UNH - the tuition numbers are a lot higher.

[superman7515]

So this is probably going to unintentionally smack of homer-ism, but isn't intended as such. If Fordham can not be consistently competitive in the PL with scholarships, as some are contending that they would still want out, how would being in the CAA help them at all? Quite a few have mentioned them as possible future members to help ease the loss of Hofstra & Northeastern on the remaining New England schools, but just taking off the "handcuffs" of the AI is not going to suddenly catapult any school, Fordham or otherwise, into suddenly hanging 50 points on W&M, UD, VU, UR, UMass, & JMU.

Now, I'm not saying in any way shape or form that any team in the nation can't compete on a game by game basis "any given Saturday", but I feel the same about Villanova that simply switching conference affiliation and an increase in notability of your opponents, real or otherwise, is not a magic wand. This is clearly just my opinion and I could well be wrong, but I don't see it suddenly making your program more viable, increasing funding exponentially, making your coach smarter, or making your team bigger/stronger/faster. I'm a Delaware guy first and foremost so of course I'll support the CAA, but if you feel you're limited by certain things such as the AI, isn't there more of a sense of accomplishment for you in the perception of doing more with "less"? If you won a national championship at Lehigh, wouldn't that be more impressive than winning the same one at University of Phoenix?

Whatever happens is going to happen regardless of the opinions expressed here or pretty much anywhere in this thread, but I don't see a CAA patch as a magic bullet to the top of the FCS mountain. If a school is genuinely not a fit for the league their in, that's certainly something that is worth looking into. But for some to say that an entire athletic department has been debacled by their conference seems short-sighted if other members operating under the same rules/regulations/by-laws have had success. I understand that football across the board is down in the PL, whether that is a trend or simply a bad year remains to be seen, but several examples of success in football and other sports have been beaten to death in the myriad of threads devoted to the PL scholarship issues and the Fordham Is Leaving/Staying/Imploding moans and groans.

Some Fordham fans may love the idea of getting into the CAA now, but what about after finishing 9th or 10th in the league for two or three seasons? When attendance is falling off because instead of a home game against Laffayette this week, you've got Georgia State coming to town traveling with 50 fans. The grass isn't always greener... But I could be wrong.

[Go...gate]

I've read nothing that says that Georgetown is "refusing" to fund football. But if you want "members that are fully committed" to the league as it is currently structured, you may be left with four or five when all is said and done.



True, but this half-in, half-out stuff does not work very well. If that scenario means that we go out and bring in a member or two who support the league's principles, and have eight, nine or ten full members who are with us for the long haul, that is OK.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I find it ironic that what i got grilled for two days ago has been supported on this board and by Fordham fans and alums on their board.

I stand by orginal comment. If the PL adds schollies Fordham has the highest risk of being hurt the most. Their adminstration and alums/fans have no clue what direction they want to go in. Without a clear cut plan or goal it's hard to accomplish things. Grill me all you want Mr. Fordham. I'll eat crow if i'm wrong.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Some Fordham fans may love the idea of getting into the CAA now, but what about after finishing 9th or 10th in the league for two or three seasons? When attendance is falling off because instead of a home game against Laffayette this week, you've got Georgia State coming to town traveling with 50 fans. The grass isn't always greener... But I could be wrong.

Those who do don't study history are doomed to repeat it, and some of Fordham's fans (men's basketball, sharing a football league with Towson) should know this better than anybody.

[carney2]

In-state? Sure. But out-of-state - especially for UNH - the tuition numbers are a lot higher.

C'mon, LFN, you're better than this. Here are the numbers that Bogie was referring to:

UNH In-State = $22,725 On Football scholarship = FREE

UNH Out-Of-State = $36,695 On scholarship = FREE

Lehigh = $50,300 On scholarship = FREE

[Doc QB]

I've read nothing that says that Georgetown is "refusing" to fund football. But if you want "members that are fully committed" to the league as it is currently structured, you may be left with four or five when all is said and done.

DFW...most of my infrequent posts are ingnored, but did you not see mine earlier? G'town is not even close to funding anything now. Period. They don't have the need based capital to even come close to converting to unrestricted rides. They have demonstrated they don't want to or can't raise capital. If they aren't getting it done now, is the league potentially going scholarship really going to make them pony up?

[Fordham]

So this is probably going to unintentionally smack of homer-ism, but isn't intended as such. If Fordham can not be consistently competitive in the PL with scholarships, as some are contending that they would still want out, how would being in the CAA help them at all? Quite a few have mentioned them as possible future members to help ease the loss of Hofstra & Northeastern on the remaining New England schools, but just taking off the "handcuffs" of the AI is not going to suddenly catapult any school, Fordham or otherwise, into suddenly hanging 50 points on W&M, UD, VU, UR, UMass, & JMU.

Now, I'm not saying in any way shape or form that any team in the nation can't compete on a game by game basis "any given Saturday", but I feel the same about Villanova that simply switching conference affiliation and an increase in notability of your opponents, real or otherwise, is not a magic wand. This is clearly just my opinion and I could well be wrong, but I don't see it suddenly making your program more viable, increasing funding exponentially, making your coach smarter, or making your team bigger/stronger/faster. I'm a Delaware guy first and foremost so of course I'll support the CAA, but if you feel you're limited by certain things such as the AI, isn't there more of a sense of accomplishment for you in the perception of doing more with "less"? If you won a national championship at Lehigh, wouldn't that be more impressive than winning the same one at University of Phoenix?

Whatever happens is going to happen regardless of the opinions expressed here or pretty much anywhere in this thread, but I don't see a CAA patch as a magic bullet to the top of the FCS mountain. If a school is genuinely not a fit for the league their in, that's certainly something that is worth looking into. But for some to say that an entire athletic department has been debacled by their conference seems short-sighted if other members operating under the same rules/regulations/by-laws have had success. I understand that football across the board is down in the PL, whether that is a trend or simply a bad year remains to be seen, but several examples of success in football and other sports have been beaten to death in the myriad of threads devoted to the PL scholarship issues and the Fordham Is Leaving/Staying/Imploding moans and groans.

Some Fordham fans may love the idea of getting into the CAA now, but what about after finishing 9th or 10th in the league for two or three seasons? When attendance is falling off because instead of a home game against Laffayette this week, you've got Georgia State coming to town traveling with 50 fans. The grass isn't always greener... But I could be wrong.

I don't take it as a slam. I think we're more likely to be doomed if we move to the CAA than just about any other move that's out there. Some fans don't. One of us is wrong.

That said, the idea proposed on here that deep down Masella truly wants out of the Pl is absurd. Guy has been a completely open book from day 1 ... he's slammed the PL directly and openly in front of the Gridiron Club for the AI move and for not following through on their scholarship promise when he announced we were going scholarship .... yet for some reason when he tells us at that same meeting, and each one since, that a PL with scholarships (and the AI) is Fordham's best option he's actually not being truthful? Nonsense.

[DFW HOYA]

At one time, PL teams could offer up to 13 full tuition/board equivs a class, or I think 57 total on the roster. Not all do, and the way they are broken up among a roster of close to 80-100 players differs league wide. Georgetown doesn't even offer 25. And that is not total packages to be broken up. It is 25 players who get some aid for football, in the form of a small grant on top of the usual financial package/award (mostly loans) via the school general aid application and policies. How they could ramp up from this meager amount is really the economic death knell for the Hoyas.

I don't doubt the numbers, and they may actually be optimistic. I think it's appropriate to put this into perspective, however.

When Georgetown joined the PL in 2000, they were up-front in discussing the extent of aid it would offer; obviously, the rest of the league immediately realized the numbers were deficient but were probably just glad to have them with Towson going out the door. "According to Athletic Director Joseph Lang, spending on increased aid will begin in 2001, with around $50,000 being spent that year," wrote the student newspaper, The HOYA. "Expenditures will increase annually until reaching levels of approximately $200,000 per year."

Yes, $200,000.

So why did Georgetown do this? Why is it not spending $2 million instead?

Georgetown carries a large budget for I-AA schools ($28 million), third only to Delaware and JMU. It also fields more sports (29) than any other Big East school, much like the Ivy League (where Harvard fields a whopping 43.) Of the $28 million, men's and women's basketball covers almost $9 million of this, so it's really a net of $19 million among 27 sports. In years past, the only true scholarship sports were basketball, track, and more recently, lacrosse, with the understanding that the remaining sports would be at a minimal or nonscholarship level. In some sports (swimming, golf, tennis, etc.), this was not a major problem. It has been in sports like baseball, where GU has not posted a winning season since 1986 and now plays 35 minutes from campus at a public park.

Over the last few years, and especially since its 16 team reorganization in 2004, the Big East has made it clear to the non I-A schools that it won't allow schools to tread water in the league and field teams that are not properly supported versus, say, Louisville and Notre Dame. (There was Internet chatter whoich suggested that Seton Hall's athletic finances was under some pressure in this regard, which led one Villanova writer to suggest the Hall might have to leave the conference. This, for now, remains unfounded.) At some schools, this meant cutting programs to 14-team NCAA minimum, but Georgetown is adamant about maintaining its teams, so instead it is gradually raising the level of scholarship support across all 24 Big East sponsored sports. Those teams that are competing outside the Big East include sports like rowing and sailing (sports that nationally do not have a scholarship tradition) and, of course, I-AA football.

Football has a home at Georgetown--the school president said so, so has the athetic director. It's not meant to carry the athletic program, but its losing records do not go unnoticed. For ten years, Georgetown has trailed the PL as a result of a significant gap in equivalencies, but has been able to maintain institutional support because it football is competitive with PL and Ivy schools in terms of admitting good student athletes. It also devoted much of its effort over the first five years to get the Multi-Sport facility built, and when that stalled, so did the momentum for more equivalencies. In 2003, it was "build it, and they will come," but in 2010 it's "if you can't build it, why would they come?" By changing the argument mid-stream when Bernard Muir (former athletic director 2005-09) took over, they never reconnected with the facility donors and failed to properly motivate the financial aid donors. Losing hasn't helped, either.

I dispute the idea of an "economic death knell" because this has been going on for 10 years. If there is a coherent funding strategy, the football constituency will get behind it, but with Kevin Kelly's record (8-44) and the turnover at the athletic director's post, that message has not been made clear in recent years.

So, a long answer to a short question: will Georgetown pony up scholarships if the PL moves to a Fordhamized 60-grant model? My uneducated guess? No, because 1) institutional growth in scholarships must go to Big East sponsored sports first, and 2) major development for football will still have to focus on finishing the MSF. It's not like GU is giving notice next month, but as the competitive (and recruiting) gap becomes untenable, Georgetown has to look at options that fit its funding model, one that is more Ivy-friendly than CAA-compatible, and that, absent a call from the Big East to share in the BCS jackpot, it finds an Eastern conference home is both affordable and competitive.

Did I say, "Losing hasn't helped, either?" I just did.

[Doc QB]

[QUOTE=DFW HOYA;1577073]
"Expenditures will increase annually until reaching levels of approximately $200,000 per year."

It also devoted much of its effort over the first five years to get the Multi-Sport facility built, and when that stalled, so did the momentum for more equivalencies.

So, a long answer to a short question: will Georgetown pony up scholarships if the PL moves to a Fordhamized 60-grant model? My uneducated guess? No, because 1) institutional growth in scholarships must go to Big East sponsored sports first, and 2) major development for football will still have to focus on finishing the MSF.QUOTE]

1) $200,000 per year....ouch. That just about funds three equivalencies with a bit to spare.
2) No stadium upgrade no more athletic aid....again, ouch.
3) "Will they pony up more, No". Well stated with hard, unfortunate university wide facts. Seems like you agree.

DFW...have long enjoyed your posts and feel a special kinship to the plight of G'town, mostly because best man in my wedding was former college roomate and Hoyas strength coach. He's now at Delaware. But I can't see how you dispute that the "economic death knell" is upon G'town if full scholarships are approved. Your own post really summed it up better than my mere inside info on the meager amount of athletic money available at the current time.

I've said it more than once here. If G'town had the money, with its location, and the fact that it is the best school in conference with regard to academic reputation, and of course, hoops to watch in winter....we'd be chasing them for PL titles every year.

[DFW HOYA]

DFW...have long enjoyed your posts and feel a special kinship to the plight of G'town, mostly because best man in my wedding was former college roomate and Hoyas strength coach. He's now at Delaware. But I can't see how you dispute that the "economic death knell" is upon G'town if full scholarships are approved. Your own post really summed it up better than my mere inside info on the meager amount of athletic money available at the current time.

If Georgetown was a full PL member, yes, the economic impact would be severe. But Georgetown is not tethered to the PL. It could certainly find Ivy, NEC, and assorted regional opponents (Davidson, Marist, VMI, etc.) to play, and without the AI restrictions which restrict talented recruits interested in Georgetown each year. It can also compete without the specter of Title IX looming over it, which I contend is an underreported danger for teams like Lafayette and Holy Cross to match the funding existing at Colgate and Fordham.

I'm not arguing to leave the PL, but when or if Georgetown is no longer welcome in a 60-scholarship PL, it has to look to somewhere where it will be.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm not arguing to leave the PL, but when or if Georgetown is no longer welcome in a 60-scholarship PL, it has to look to somewhere where it will be.

I have zero doubt that Georgetown WILL be welcome in a 60-scholly PL. The question really is: is Georgetown happy in a 60 scholly PL. And there's no reason that it shouldn't be, really.

Something I've been thinking about a lot recently is Towson. They're in the CAA, are nowhere near the level of competitiveness with Delaware, Richmond, JMU and the like, yet they continue to field teams and there's no worry about them leaving for the NEC or anything like that. I know Towson is way different than Georgetown, but why is that?

[CFBfan]

I have zero doubt that Georgetown WILL be welcome in a 60-scholly PL. The question really is: is Georgetown happy in a 60 scholly PL. And there's no reason that it shouldn't be, really.

Something I've been thinking about a lot recently is Towson. They're in the CAA, are nowhere near the level of competitiveness with Delaware, Richmond, JMU and the like, yet they continue to field teams and there's no worry about them leaving for the NEC or anything like that. I know Towson is way different than Georgetown, but why is that?

While they might be welcome to stay I don't see GU or ANY other NON scholarship program playing in a full scholarship league. That is not good for anybody....no upside to the others playing them and not good for the school, team and kids that have to compete with a week in week out disadvantage. (IMO of course)

[Bogus Megapardus]

Regarding Georgetown - *If* a scholarship decision already has been made, would it not make sense that a provision for Georgetown already is part of the decision? The league made an accommodation for Fordham's scholarships. Isn't Georgetown entitled to an accommodation as well?

The Patriot seems to have decided that it wants to *play* football, not simply *have* football. My sense is that Georgetown agrees and will step up with the rest of the league at some point including reasonable facilities upgrades. Only if Georgetown is content simply to *have* football (as seems to be the case with Hoya baseball, for example) will it go to the PFL (which I'm certain would welcome the Hoyas) of choose to remain independent.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

While they might be welcome to stay I don't see GU or ANY other NON scholarship program playing in a full scholarship league. That is not good for anybody....no upside to the others playing them and not good for the school, team and kids that have to compete with a week in week out disadvantage. (IMO of course)

You can make the same argument about Towson. They're not offering as many scholarships as Delaware, and yet they line up every week and play. Is that inequity "bad" for the Tigers?

[Go...gate]

You can make the same argument about Towson. They're not offering as many scholarships as Delaware, and yet they line up every week and play. Is that inequity "bad" for the Tigers?

Towson is, in some ways, a "tweener" between a PL-type school and a CAA full-scholarship school due to budgetary issues. That is why they were a reasonable (and valuable) affiliate for the PL. AFAIAC, the PL should always be appreciative of Towson. They really helped keep the league alive in the mid 1990's. They still play Colgate home-and-home (which is a nice thing for both schools). And it is a fine school.

[carney2]

Something I've been thinking about a lot recently is Towson. They're in the CAA, are nowhere near the level of competitiveness with Delaware, Richmond, JMU and the like, yet they continue to field teams and there's no worry about them leaving for the NEC or anything like that. I know Towson is way different than Georgetown, but why is that?

Some people (in this case institution) just want to feel that they are with "the best," or playing at their appropriate level, or their perception thereof. It makes no sense, but that's the way it is. Look at Fordham. They continue, year after year, and now decade after decade, to get their butts kicked in their current basketball league. The faithful wouldn't have it any other way. This is where they belong. Irrational? Yes. They perpetuate the delusion by blaming it on individual coaches and ADs who have passed through along the way. At Fordham, for instance, the next coach, the next AD, will lead them to their rightful place in the universe. I'm sure there is some of this going on at Towson. They are the next JMU. Just one piece of the puzzle missing.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Some people (in this case institution) just want to feel that they are with "the best," or playing at their appropriate level, or their perception thereof. It makes no sense, but that's the way it is. Look at Fordham. They continue, year after year, and now decade after decade, to get their butts kicked in their current basketball league. The faithful wouldn't have it any other way. This is where they belong. Irrational? Yes. They perpetuate the delusion by blaming it on individual coaches and ADs who have passed through along the way. At Fordham, for instance, the next coach, the next AD, will lead them to their rightful place in the universe. I'm sure there is some of this going on at Towson. They are the next JMU. Just one piece of the puzzle missing.

What you say makes a lot of sense. So, why can't Georgetown be the exact same way in a scholarship PL? Georgetown would be with the "best", defined as a high-academic FCS football, they'd get home games versus the Ivy League that they might be unlikely to get competing as an independent or member of the PFL, and they'd still get a chance to be PL champions and go to the playoffs, too.

Being a part of the NEC, Atlantic Sun or PFL would not be like-academic institutions for the most part (Davidson being the notable exception), and while the possibility exists of postseason play in the NEC that currently does not exist for the PFL or a fictional non-scholly A-Sun conference, the NEC has scholarships, too.

Even with scholarships, I really don't see any logical place for Georgetown to go unless Dartmouth drops football, the Ivy League wants to stay at eight and Harvard wants to make more trips down south. Unless that happens, limping along with incremental gains in the PL still seems like a logical conclusion, financial woes or no.

[jimbo65]

Some people (in this case institution) just want to feel that they are with "the best," or playing at their appropriate level, or their perception thereof. It makes no sense, but that's the way it is. Look at Fordham. They continue, year after year, and now decade after decade, to get their butts kicked in their current basketball league. The faithful wouldn't have it any other way. This is where they belong. Irrational? Yes. They perpetuate the delusion by blaming it on individual coaches and ADs who have passed through along the way. At Fordham, for instance, the next coach, the next AD, will lead them to their rightful place in the universe. I'm sure there is some of this going on at Towson. They are the next JMU. Just one piece of the puzzle missing.
Our present Fordham AD has been in office for almost 25 years. Coaches Hill & Wittenberg were disastorous, the former right away, the latter eventually. The other coaches Penders & Macarchuck were effective. Three things must change for us to succeed in the A10. First, a true commitment from the Prez & the BOT to succeed. Second, replacement of the AD and third, a new bball facility. Actually, two & three are really actions taken by demonstrating the commitment in the first requirement.

[carney2]

Our present Fordham AD has been in office for almost 25 years. Coaches Hill & Wittenberg were disastorous, the former right away, the latter eventually. The other coaches Penders & Macarchuck were effective. Three things must change for us to succeed in the A10. First, a true commitment from the Prez & the BOT to succeed. Second, replacement of the AD and third, a new bball facility. Actually, two & three are really actions taken by demonstrating the commitment in the first requirement.

Thanks. I think I've heard all of this before and, to some extent, you make my point. Almost 20 years down this trail of tears and you still need commitment, a place to play, and a new guy in charge. Actually, that is my point exactly. You took your ball, ran off with nowhere to go and not a clue of how to get there, and now, almost 20 years later, you're still futzing around. Frankly, I couldn't care less what happened and/or happens to the Fordham basketball program. That's yesterday's news. I do however, find it idiotic that there are those on Rose Hill that think reproducing the basketball fiasco is a blueprint for success in football. "Let's go somewhere - we have no idea where - with crappy facilities and absolutely no clear idea of what we're going to do. But at least we'd be away from the Patriot League." At this rate, in 20 years D-1 athletics in The Bronx will consist of a tiddly-winks tournament. The old timers will be sitting around however, mumbling "None of this would have happened if we hadn't joined the Patriot League." It's always someone else's fault.

If I injured someone's delicate feelings...well...I guess it was intentional.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Thanks. I think I've heard all of this before and, to some extent, you make my point. Almost 20 years down this trail of tears and you still need commitment, a place to play, and a new guy in charge. Actually, that is my point exactly. You took your ball, ran off with nowhere to go and not a clue of how to get there, and now, almost 20 years later, you're still futzing around. Frankly, I couldn't care less what happened and/or happens to the Fordham basketball program. That's yesterday's news. I do however, find it idiotic that there are those on Rose Hill that think reproducing the basketball fiasco is a blueprint for success in football. "Let's go somewhere - we have no idea where - with crappy facilities and absolutely no clear idea of what we're going to do. But at least we'd be away from the Patriot League." At this rate, in 20 years D-1 athletics in The Bronx will consist of a tiddly-winks tournament. The old timers will be sitting around however, mumbling "None of this would have happened if we hadn't joined the Patriot League." It's always someone else's fault.

If i injured someone's delicate feelings...well...I guess it was intentional.

I said the exact same thing about 4 days ago and i was called knucklehead, clueless and i believe brainless by Mr. Fordham. I expect you'll receive the same treatment.

"The school this hurts the most is Fordham imo. I believe they hedged their bets on the fact the league would not offer schollies and they could just happily walk away. However, if the league does go for schollies than everything stays the same and they're still lagging behind the league in facilities and support from their administration. Given how poorly the school runs their athletic program they'll continue to bumble around in mediocrity. The basis i use for this is their move to the A10 15+ years. They've shown they have zero interest in seriously competing in the conference. In all honestly i wish the league would kick them out and go after a school like VCU or GMU. Fordham belongs in the PL as an all sports member imo."

[CFBfan]

You can make the same argument about Towson. They're not offering as many scholarships as Delaware, and yet they line up every week and play. Is that inequity "bad" for the Tigers?

outside of 2 early games this year how competetive has GU been in the NON SCHOLARSHIP PL?? Not very!!! and if every other team has Scholarship athletes it's supposed to improve for GU?? I don't see it, but again< that's just me

[Bogus Megapardus]

outside of 2 early games this year how competitive has GU been in the NON SCHOLARSHIP PL?? Not very!!! and if every other team has Scholarship athletes it's supposed to improve for GU?? I don't see it, but again< that's just me

I respectfully disagree. The Hoyas have been very competitive. They have won two league games and were barely edged against Fordham and Bucknell. Plus they almost beat Yale in New Haven. Wagner went to double overtime. The only big loss was Colgate. With a bye this week they'll be rested and ready for Lehigh at home in a game that the Engineers are sure to take very seriously.

[superman7515]

Question for the Georgetown fans... If attendance is lacking, why isn't Georgetown playing local opponents like Howard (4.6 miles away by road/4 miles away straight line)? They've only played twice since 1881! Wouldn't that get more DC fans into the seats? How about Towson (65 miles by road)? Only 4 times. Now I know that neither are big programs, but wouldn't the local interest be up for those games?

EDIT: You've played Miami, yes that Miami, more times than Howard!?

[carney2]

Question for the Georgetown fans... If attendance is lacking, why isn't Georgetown playing local opponents like Howard (4.6 miles away by road/4 miles away straight line)? They've only played twice since 1881! Wouldn't that get more DC fans into the seats? How about Towson (65 miles by road)? Only 4 times. Now I know that neither are big programs, but wouldn't the local interest be up for those games?

EDIT: You've played Miami, yes that Miami, more times than Howard!?

My understanding is that Georgetown's Multi-Whatsit only seats around 2,000. That would seem to be a critical factor in attendance that is, as you say, lacking. No one knows if they'd get that extra body if they expanded to 2,001, but I think you can relate to the heart of the problem. Who they play is not a critical factor.

[CFBfan]

Question for the Georgetown fans... If attendance is lacking, why isn't Georgetown playing local opponents like Howard (4.6 miles away by road/4 miles away straight line)? They've only played twice since 1881! Wouldn't that get more DC fans into the seats? How about Towson (65 miles by road)? Only 4 times. Now I know that neither are big programs, but wouldn't the local interest be up for those games?

EDIT: You've played Miami, yes that Miami, more times than Howard!?

Howard dropped GU and picked up Holy Cross.....

[CFBfan]

I respectfully disagree. The Hoyas have been very competitive. They have won two league games and were barely edged against Fordham and Bucknell. Plus they almost beat Yale in New Haven. Wagner went to double overtime. The only big loss was Colgate. With a bye this week they'll be rested and ready for Lehigh at home in a game that the Engineers are sure to take very seriously.

Bogus I appreciate the respect for GU. I have been at every game and there is NO way GU competes with PL teams with full scholarship rosters simply no way!!
and again, close games are still losses this year. BUT my point is that a couple of PL wins over the last 5 years does not make GU competetive in the PL

[DFW HOYA]

Question for the Georgetown fans... If attendance is lacking, why isn't Georgetown playing local opponents like Howard (4.6 miles away by road/4 miles away straight line)? They've only played twice since 1881! Wouldn't that get more DC fans into the seats? How about Towson (65 miles by road)? Only 4 times. Now I know that neither are big programs, but wouldn't the local interest be up for those games?

EDIT: You've played Miami, yes that Miami, more times than Howard!?

Two different issues.

1. Georgetown signed a four year deal with Howard in 2008. After Georgetown won the opener 12-7, there was discussion in Howard circles that it needed to play HBCU teams instead. Howard ended the series two years early, and will be adding a series with Division II Morehouse beginning next season. Towson has never shown interest in a DC series; the Baltimore and Washington markets are as disparate a fan base as Philly and New York.

2. Georgetown technically oversells MSF but does not draw many local fans. I have raised concerns that much of this is due to the lack of local kids on the roster: there are only three this season. The HS coaches will tell you that they don't push kids to Georgetown due to the admission requirements and the lack of scholarships. Which brings us back to this topic...

[Fordham]

I said the exact same thing about 4 days ago and i was called knucklehead, clueless and i believe brainless by Mr. Fordham. I expect you'll receive the same treatment.

"The school this hurts the most is Fordham imo. I believe they hedged their bets on the fact the league would not offer schollies and they could just happily walk away. However, if the league does go for schollies than everything stays the same and they're still lagging behind the league in facilities and support from their administration. Given how poorly the school runs their athletic program they'll continue to bumble around in mediocrity. The basis i use for this is their move to the A10 15+ years. They've shown they have zero interest in seriously competing in the conference. In all honestly i wish the league would kick them out and go after a school like VCU or GMU. Fordham belongs in the PL as an all sports member imo."

Your argument is that Fordham is hurt the most by having the PL school go scholarship.

Carney's argument is that having us go to the CAA (not that there's an offer being made) will doom us to failure.

Carney's right. You're wrong. Why are you acting like the two of you are making the same argument?

[Sader87]

Howard dropped GU and picked up Holy Cross.....

I'm pretty sure the Howard@HC game this year came about because Northeastern was supposed to be at HC this year. I have no idea if there is a return game to Howard next year though I rather doubt it.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Your argument is that Fordham is hurt the most by having the PL school go scholarship.

Carney's argument is that having us go to the CAA (not that there's an offer being made) will doom us to failure.

Carney's right. You're wrong. Why are you acting like the two of you are making the same argument?

Because we're both saying that given Fordam's track record there's a good chance that no matter what happens they'll screw it up.

[carney2]

Bogus I appreciate the respect for GU. I have been at every game and there is NO way GU competes with PL teams with full scholarship rosters simply no way!!

Assuming that all of this is a "go," there will be various levels of scholarship implementation. What you say is true for Georgetown vs. those schools who jump into this with both feet (let's say Colgate, Fordham and Lehigh). There still might be some level of competition however, with those schools that choose to do it on the cheap (let's say Holy Cross and Lafayette). This will not be an all or nothing deal.

[Fordham]

Because we're both saying that given Fordam's track record there's a good chance that no matter what happens they'll screw it up. ugh - this reminds me of the Cheers where Cliff answered "who are 3 people who have never been in my living room?" to the final Jeopardy question.

[RichH2]

Great quote Fordham, but unfortunately both Owl and Carney are correct just from slightly different viewpoints. FU has yet to show any ability to run its athletic program in Bball and Fball with any degree of consistent success. Clawson got the fball up to a good level but other than a few isolated yrs the program has underperformed. Based on that track record many Ram posters seem to feel that a jump to the CAA is warranted. Huh? The gist I get from your board is that the PL is just an elitist academic league that even with scholarsips would not be a good fit for Fordham, I guess because of the AI floor. The logic seems to be we are not happy in the frying pan , so lets just hop into the fire. Maybe it will be better.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Because we're both saying that given Fordam's track record there's a good chance that no matter what happens they'll screw it up.

This is fundamentally different than your original statement, which was that Fordham was hurt the most by the PL offering scholarships (again, if it is true, which I am becoming less and less convinced by the day that this is the case).

But, really now, why does anybody have to really be hurt by this?

If the PL offers scholarships, Fordham ultimately gets what they want. A scholarship league, the ability to schedule Army in Yankee Stadium (hopefully) every once in a while, and a chance to win a championship. They'll have some grousing from their silly alumni thinking they should go FBS, but the AD and the admin know that those are ridiculous aspirations - as is the CAA, too - and couldn't be more pleased that the Rams can schedule Columbia and Army in the same year.

Georgetown may not be thrilled with scholarships, but by remaining in the PL they get what they want: a high-academic league, a decent affiliation with the Ivy League, and a football program. They're not thrilled about potentially shelling out a bit more money, but incrementally they can build up the program and still play Yale every year. That might not happen as an independent, in another scholly league (the NEC) or a D-I non-scholarship league (the PFL, a new "Atlantic Sun" non-scholly conference).

I mean, who's "hurt"? Really? Georgetown? Not really - they can keep the status quo, and schedule Yale. Fordham? Not really - they continue their scholarship path, and schedule Army. The league? Nope - they improve their product, can schedule more FBS games, and essentially keep everything together.

If you believe carney, you'd think Lafayette is the most "hurt" by the decision since they theoretically have a huge Title IX hole to fill when they go to scholarship ball. But I'm more optimistic than he (granted, this is not hard ;) ). Lafayette will do what it takes to close any gap (if it exists) and field teams that will beat Lehigh. If Lehigh schedules Army with scholarships, Lafayette will schedule Navy with scholarships. It will happen.

Synopsis: Nobody is "hurt".

[Fordham]

Great quote Fordham, but unfortunately both Owl and Carney are correct just from slightly different viewpoints. FU has yet to show any ability to run its athletic program in Bball and Fball with any degree of consistent success. Clawson got the fball up to a good level but other than a few isolated yrs the program has underperformed. Based on that track record many Ram posters seem to feel that a jump to the CAA is warranted. Huh? The gist I get from your board is that the PL is just an elitist academic league that even with scholarsips would not be a good fit for Fordham, I guess because of the AI floor. The logic seems to be we are not happy in the frying pan , so lets just hop into the fire. Maybe it will be better.
Rich, the original quote from Towel was that Fordham is hurt most by the PL agreeing to scholarships. That's been the whole thing I've been arguing against here and I still find that point laughable. I don't know what's so difficult to follow in this but if you can't see that his argument changed from "Fordham clearly being the one most hurt from a move to scholarships" to "no matter what happens Fordham, they're doomed because their AD is so inept" then I can't help you. I still ridicule his idea that the school most lobbying for scholarships is going to be the school most hurt by them.

As far as the frying pan point you make, please see my earlier post regarding us pushing for a move to the CAA to see how I feel about it.

[Fordham]

This is fundamentally different than your original statement, which was that Fordham was hurt the most by the PL offering scholarships (again, if it is true, which I am becoming less and less convinced by the day that this is the case).

...

Thank you!

[Doc QB]

ugh - this reminds me of the Cheers where Cliff answered "who are 3 people who have never been in my living room?" to the final Jeopardy question.

"Today's Jeopardy contestants: the chief of neurosurgery here in Boston, a corporate attorney.....and...a mailman....."

Awesome episode.

[CFBfan]

This is fundamentally different than your original statement, which was that Fordham was hurt the most by the PL offering scholarships (again, if it is true, which I am becoming less and less convinced by the day that this is the case).

But, really now, why does anybody have to really be hurt by this?

If the PL offers scholarships, Fordham ultimately gets what they want. A scholarship league, the ability to schedule Army in Yankee Stadium (hopefully) every once in a while, and a chance to win a championship. They'll have some grousing from their silly alumni thinking they should go FBS, but the AD and the admin know that those are ridiculous aspirations - as is the CAA, too - and couldn't be more pleased that the Rams can schedule Columbia and Army in the same year.

Georgetown may not be thrilled with scholarships, but by remaining in the PL they get what they want: a high-academic league, a decent affiliation with the Ivy League, and a football program. They're not thrilled about potentially shelling out a bit more money, but incrementally they can build up the program and still play Yale every year. That might not happen as an independent, in another scholly league (the NEC) or a D-I non-scholarship league (the PFL, a new "Atlantic Sun" non-scholly conference).

I mean, who's "hurt"? Really? Georgetown? Not really - they can keep the status quo, and schedule Yale. Fordham? Not really - they continue their scholarship path, and schedule Army. The league? Nope - they improve their product, can schedule more FBS games, and essentially keep everything together.

If you believe carney, you'd think Lafayette is the most "hurt" by the decision since they theoretically have a huge Title IX hole to fill when they go to scholarship ball. But I'm more optimistic than he (granted, this is not hard ;) ). Lafayette will do what it takes to close any gap (if it exists) and field teams that will beat Lehigh. If Lehigh schedules Army with scholarships, Lafayette will schedule Navy with scholarships. It will happen.

Synopsis: Nobody is "hurt".

LFN, I appreciate and enjoy your insight BUT I do disagree with you adamantly about GU. Should the PL go scholarship your scenario will not play out. GU can NOT compete with scholarship programs. IF the PL goes that way GU will not last (IMO).

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Rich, the original quote from Towel was that Fordham is hurt most by the PL agreeing to scholarships. That's been the whole thing I've been arguing against here and I still find that point laughable. I don't know what's so difficult to follow in this but if you can't see that his argument changed from "Fordham clearly being the one most hurt from a move to scholarships" to "no matter what happens Fordham, they're doomed because their AD is so inept" then I can't help you. I still ridicule his idea that the school most lobbying for scholarships is going to be the school most hurt by them.

As far as the frying pan point you make, please see my earlier post regarding us pushing for a move to the CAA to see how I feel about it.

Fordham this is about as clear as i can make it. The reasons Fordham is hurt the most by scholarships is because of the following reasons. :

1. If they decide to stay in the league what have they gained on Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate and Holy Cross assuming those shools follow along? They're still lagging behind those schools in terms of facilities and on the field success. They're still going to have to improve their stadium imo. If they haven't been able to out recruit Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate and HC what gives you the idea they will now? I still believe the hierarchary will remain the same in the league IF everyone jumps on board with schollies.

Now assume they decide to the leave the league no matter what. Then what happens? Is Forfham going to join the CAA with half a stadium and get their brains beat in? Are they going to go to the NEC who have a scholarship limit? That obviously wouldn't make any sense would it?

2. The administration. What are they going to do? They've made a complete mess of the A10 deal. What leads you to believe they'll get this one right? Based on your own fans alums, there's certaintly a lot of doubt. For whatever reason the football program has not set the world on fire the last 20 years. Why is that? The PL holding it back or something else? Perhaps a poor AD and President? Some say so. Fordham has thrown a lot of money at the program i'll give them that. But they sure haven't had much return on the investment.

So my question is, is Fordham going to put in the commitment needed to make BOTH football and basketball a success? Or are they going to pick one and say screw the other? Wouldn't you agree that Fordham needs more than just schollies to move ahead of some of their PL brethren? And if they do make the commitment for football are they going to improve their bball program? Now ask yourself, are you confident that the school will get it right?

It seems to me Fordham joined the A10 thinking that by joing a better conference their program would be better by default. My feeling is they're taking the same approach to football schollies, just add them and everything else will take of itself.

[Fordham]

Fordham this is about as clear as i can make it. The reasons Fordham is hurt the most by scholarships is because of the following reasons. :

1. If they decide to stay in the league what have they gained on Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate and Holy Cross assuming those shools follow along? They're still lagging behind those schools in terms of facilities and on the field success. They're still going to have to improve their stadium imo. If they haven't been able to out recruit Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate and HC what gives you the idea they will now? I still believe the hierarchary will remain the same in the league IF everyone jumps on board with schollies.

Now assume they decide to the leave the league no matter what. Then what happens? Is Forfham going to join the CAA with half a stadium and get their brains beat in? Are they going to go to the NEC who have a scholarship limit? That obviously wouldn't make any sense would it?

2. The administration. What are they going to do? They've made a complete mess of the A10 deal. What leads you to believe they'll get this one right? Based on your own fans alums, there's certaintly a lot of doubt. For whatever reason the football program has not set the world on fire the last 20 years. Why is that? The PL holding it back or something else? Perhaps a poor AD and President? Some say so. Fordham has thrown a lot of money at the program i'll give them that. But they sure haven't had much return on the investment.

So my question is, is Fordham going to put in the commitment needed to make BOTH football and basketball a success? Or are they going to pick one and say screw the other? Wouldn't you agree that Fordham needs more than just schollies to move ahead of some of their PL brethren? And if they do make the commitment for football are they going to improve their bball program? Now ask yourself, are you confident that the school will get it right?

I know you're trying to be clear but it's radically different to say that "Fordham is hurt the most by a PL move to scholarships" and "Fordham needs more than just schollies to move ahead of some of their PL brethren". If the point you've arrived at now was where you started we never would have gone through this.

Regarding #1 - what Fordham will have gained is a) security that they will be in a conference and not have to try to form one, hope for one to form, go to one that is above our heads or try to go independent until one of those things happens and that's huge; b) Fordham will have gained nothing on the PL but it will have gained the ability to compete much better for recruits v. the Ivies and NEC, etc. schools. Given the AI, we'll never compete in the majority of cases v. the CAA. Where I believe the league took our dip from the late 90's/early 2000's is in being able to land the kid we used to get v. the Ivies and NEC. I think that will make the team and league more competitive again, even if (as I've been arguing all along) it doesn't make us leap into the top tier of FCS conferences.

Regarding #2 - the last decade has not been a failure for our football program by any means and I think there's a good argument that we've had an overall decade either on par with or better than LU's with 2 titles and 2 playoff appearances, both of which we performed well in. If the future means that we're a competitive team that goes to the playoffs every few years in a scholarship PL but are just as often middle or lower tier I'm not sure that's a huge problem or condemnation of the program. I think the problem is that the consensus is that we have underperformed based upon on our returning talent the past few years and, while I agree with that, it doesn't mean the past decade has been a failure. Put another way, every Fordham fan out there would have signed up at the turn of the milennium for football to have played out this way since then. It's been a dramatic improvement over the 90's.

Regarding hoops - they don't go as hand in hand as you're trying to make them. I hope we turn things around on the court and I think the new coach was a great hire but have no idea how things will play out. Nor do I think it impacts football all that much overall. I think it's easier to continue to get admin support when you're lobbying to just make sure that things don't change (football) than when you're arguing for a larger commitment (hoops). I also think your frustration as an Owl fan over how our hoops team has negatively impacted the A10 is clouding your commentary here (but I'm open to being wrong).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Fordham this is about as clear as i can make it. The reasons Fordham is hurt the most by scholarships is because of the following reasons. :

1. If they stay in the PL they will have gained nothing on Lehigh, Lafayette, HC, Colgate. If they go, they can't compete in the CAA.

2. The administration. They sucked about basketball, what makes you think they'll get football right?

I'm paraphrasing your answer above. The first answer makes no sense. If they leave, they don't care anymore what Lehigh/HC/Lafayette/Colgate does. If they stay, you're saying they'd "lose" a tiny advantage they had that would expire once everyone is full scholarship anyway. If Fordham decided to go scholarship to get an advantage over those four, that's pretty sad - and I emphatically don't believe that to be the case. Fordham went scholly because they wanted to play FBS teams and they feel like they couldn't compete in the PL given the Academic Index. This is different from saying that Fordham wanted an advantage over the rest of the PL.

The second answer simply seems like a referendum on what Fordham has done, and a question whether they will have the stick-to-it-iveness to follow through. In football, they have built some impressive stuff for their recruits while creative working with the facilites they've been dealt - and they've got interesting deals in the pipeline for FBS games. While much of it is still in terms of plans rather than results, it's pretty impressive what they've been doing - and have been able to do - in football.

Basketball, not so much.

But football scholarships have nothing to do with either of those things. But additionally, there is one area where you cannot doubt Fordham's dedication: money. They have been putting the money into facilities and aid for students. You think that the admin has said "just add schollies, and everything will take care of itself." On what I've seen, I don't feel that's true.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

LFN,

1. What you said is not what i commenting on. The point i was making is this. With everything being the same, in a scholarship PL Fordham gains nothing. They'll still have do other things to improve their on the field success somewhere. Just throwing money at is has proven not to really work.

Plus, i'm not sure Fordham administration was/is very prepared for the PL adding scholarships. I believe they thought they were going to leave since the league as a result of the PL remaining in its current form. If the league does inact schollies Fordham has a decision to make rather than having the decision made for them.

Now on to what you said,

Fordham wanted scholarships to move past the PL in its current form. So yes they did it to gain an advantage. So by default it would be over those teams. Was it their only motivation, absolutely not. But you can't deny the reason they did it is to recruit athletes that they weren't able to get while being held back by PL restrictions.

How about if they leave and the PL does offer schollies? You don't think a scholarship Fordham would be interested in what fellow NE scholarship institutions are doing? There is no question that PL and IL programs are recruiting against each other. With scholarships the PL would be recruiting against CAA and NEC in addition to their conference members. Hence you have to care in some compacity.

LFN you can not honestly say Fordham should be applauded for putting money into their facilities. A lot of Fordham fans and alums would point to the FAILURE to put money into their facilities as the #1 reason for Fordhams athletic short comings. Their failure to address Rose Hill Gym might be the biggest thing holding Fordham bball back. Also, i'd rate their football stadium above only the MSF in the PL and would it certaintly be at the bottom in the CAA.

[van]

LFN, I appreciate and enjoy your insight BUT I do disagree with you adamantly about GU. Should the PL go scholarship your scenario will not play out. GU can NOT compete with scholarship programs. IF the PL goes that way GU will not last (IMO).

GU cannot compete now, what's different with schollies?

[Bogus Megapardus]

GU cannot compete now, what's different with schollies?

Georgetown can compete now. It has demonstrated as much this season. More remarkable is that there is not a significant difference, at present, between Georgetown and Fordham.

[CFBfan]

GU cannot compete now, what's different with schollies?

that was my point but thanks for your keen insight. next time read the thread

[Sader87]

that was my point but thanks for your keen insight. next time read the thread

And I'm the bad guy here Bogey....???

[CFBfan]

And I'm the bad guy here Bogey....???

Ha!! oh yeah. i forgot: the PL sucks 87

[DFW HOYA]

FWIW, the topic is also busy on the various PL team message boards. (I did not list the Lehigh Sports Forum because it appaars to focus more on game day recaps.)

Lafayette: 65 posts
Holy Cross: 57 posts, three threads
Fordham: 43
Colgate: 31
Bucknell: 15
Georgetown: no posts

[Sader87]

Ha!! oh yeah. i forgot: the PL sucks 87

It does in football right now...no question.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

FWIW, the topic is also busy on the various PL team message boards. (I did not list the Lehigh Sports Forum because it appaars to focus more on game day recaps.)

Lafayette: 65 posts
Holy Cross: 57 posts, three threads
Fordham: 43
Colgate: 31
Bucknell: 15
Georgetown: no posts

I believe the zero comments on the Georgetown board speaks volumes.

LFN's blog is usually the most active when it comes to topics regarding the PL and FCS football in general.

[Sader87]

I believe the zero comments on the Georgetown board speaks volumes.

LFN's blog is usually the most active when it comes to topics regarding the PL and FCS football in general.

Bull...LFN does a great job, but the HC board is more active than all the other PL boards combined....which is not necessarily a good thing lol.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Bull...LFN does a great job, but the HC board is more active than all the other PL boards combined.

I meant in comparison to the actual Lehigh sports board. Lehigh fans have two places where they post. Most of the commentary regarding scholarships and general FCS issues takes place on LFN's blog.

[RichH2]

There is a rumor that , besides the unending saga of schollies, there are some actual football games this weekend.

[Go...gate]

There is a rumor that , besides the unending saga of schollies, there are some actual football games this weekend.

Football games have been postponed so we can all lobby our Boards of Trustees and Wanda Berry (a Colgate faculty member and notorious adversary of athletics) can be taken into custody and locked in a Madison County farmhouse someplace until next spring.