It's Time that Lafayette-Lehigh Had a Trophy To Call Its Own

[carney2]

My old Lafayette comrade, Bogus Megapardus uncovered some news that may at last lead this great series to having its own trademark trophy like the Little Brown Jug (Michigan-Minnesota) or the Old Oaken Bucket (Indiana-Purdue). We need to start pushing, and here I am giving it the first gentle nudge with the following post at the Lehigh football site:

Back in the days when Lafayette, Lehigh and Rutgers were known as the Middle Three (Harvard, Yale and Princeton were the Big Three and Williams, Amherst and, I think, Wesleyan were the Little Three) we played for a trophy called The Little Brass Cannon. News articles indicate that it was originally contributed to Rutgers by a former Rutgers football coach and a former Rutgers cheerleader in 1931. It entered the three cornered rivalry as the annual prize in 1940. The Middle Three rivalry ended in 1975 with Lehigh winning the Cannon. No one has seen or heard of it since, and it is assumed to rest in a crypt under Grace Hall or Packard Lab next to Asa Packer's last rocking chair.

How about if some of you loyal 'neers rattle [Lehigh Athletic Director] Joe Sterrett's cage and have him begin a search for The Little Brass Cannon. We can then assume that Rutgers is no longer interested (Help me out here, lawyers. We must be able to invoke some sort of statute of limitations thingie to bilk them out of their share.) and make it the trademark trophy that the Leopards and ChickenSquawks tussle for on the last Saturday before Thanksgiving each year.

Oh yeah, news articles indicate that the Cannon was actually fired during games in the early years. It works!

[DFW HOYA]

Just kidding (of course), but does Leh/Laf need another reason for this game to completely overshadow the rest of the league? Contrary to local sensibilities, the other PL five teams are not in place to fill out preliminary exercises before The One Game Season.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Just kidding (of course), but does Leh/Laf need another reason for this game to completely overshadow the rest of the league? Contrary to local sensibilities, the other PL five teams are not in place to fill out preliminary exercises before The One Game Season.

Why can't HC-Colgate be a trophy game? Or how about Georgetown-Fordham, which have only been playing since, when, 1890? Or is there only one trophy game allowed in the PL? (One can only imagine the hue and cry from the Valley when some future PL commissioner moves this game to late October.)

This is an existing trophy. Lehigh appears to have been bogarting the thing for the past thirty-five years, and it's high time we know why. Harvard stole it once. Apparently so did Princeton, back when there were only twelve football teams in all existence (Rutgers, Lafayette and Lehigh among them). That's why the Scarlet alum had to donate another one.

I will make this offer to the Hoyas - if they beat both Lehigh and Lafayette this year, I personally will exercise my plenary authority to implore upon carney2 and LFN to deliver the cannon (in working order) to M Street.

[DFW HOYA]

I will make this offer to the Hoyas - they they beat both Lehigh and Lafayette this year, I personally will exercise my plenary authority to implore upon carney2 and LFN to deliver the cannon (in working order) to M Street.

Delivering that to M Street is one sure way to get a knock on the door from Homeland Security.

But Georgetown will give one of these teams a real game this year. Won't say which team however...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Two words: Loving this.

Digging into this mystery right now.

[Franks Tanks]

Maybe we can get those losers from Rutgers to participate as well.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Maybe we can get those losers from Rutgers to participate as well.

Nope. Those cheeky bastards think they're entitled to have it as a trophy for their eastern/tri-state series among Rutgers, UConn, and Syracuse (http://blog.upstreamredteam.com/2009/08/why-not-big-apple-cup.html).

Since this will not happen as long as I draw a living breath, I figure we ought to resurrect it for our own purposes. Prepare for war (and/or a game against the Scarlet Knights). It is, and will remain, a "Middle Three" trophy.




http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/2038/brasscannon11141940.jpg

[CrusaderBob]

A while ago, I outlined a plan to build some other rivalries in the PL besides LC vs. LU and Army vs. Navy

Here's a link to the full logic behind the idea, but I'll summarize and expand a bit

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?52046-Patriot-League-Week-12&p=1202222&highlight=#post1202222

Since 1986, we have lacked a rivalry game to end the season at HC. Immediately following the cancellation of the BC series, some at HC speculated that Colgate would be the natural successor to BC, which I can't argue with, but ...

One other thought kicked around the HC board some time ago was the PL concept of a 3 way rivalry, the Jesuit 3 - much like the Middle 3 described above or the Little 3 in the NESCAC. HC, Fordham, & Georgetown would conclude their season against one another and the winner claims the title. this would also enable Bucknell & Colgate to end the season every year.

And given the theme of this thread, of course a trophy to go along with teh Jesuit 3 title would be nice.

With the Jesuit link, something related to St. Ignatius Loyola would be fitting. The Ignatian Cup is too pedestrian and besides sounds like something used to celebrate Mass not awarded in a FB game. St. Ignatius was a soldier and upon his conversion, laid down his armor and weapons before an image of the Virgn Mary, and while it would be cool to play for a sword it would be very politically incorrect, but playing for the Ignatian Shield just might do the trick.

C'mon PL, do something to build some other rivalries!

[Bogus Megapardus]

The Ignatian Shield

Georgetown might end up entombed perennially in the Ignatian Sepulchre. xnodx

Seriously, these rivalries are, and always have been, a good idea. Lafayette and Lehigh probably don't want distraction from "The Rivalry" but I think the Bucknell/Colgate and Fordham/Georgetown/Holy Cross games should be played on the final weekend every year.

[Sader87]

Forget the Ignatius Shield/Sword/Bowl etc. etc. etc. Georgetown will probably drop football within the decade and Fordham is probably going to the CAA....HC and Colgate should end their (regular) season every year against one another...the Red Raiders are the only other school HC has had significant ties with (football-wise) in the PL continuosly since the 1930's.

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/patriot/holy_cross/opponents_records.php?teamid=749

[RichH2]

I grew up in the Middle Three. God, I'm old. Cannon does indeed reside at LU. It used to be in the lobby at Grace Hall. Have no idea where it is now.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I grew up in the Middle Three. God, I'm old. Cannon does indeed reside at LU. It used to be in the lobby at Grace Hall. Have no idea where it is now.

"Curiouser and Curiouser" (exclaimed Alice, when she was Ten Feet Tall).

This is getting interesting. The Rutgers guys, who want it back, are on a need-to-know basis only at this point, of course.

EDIT - further research shows that the cannon was again stolen from Lehigh in during a game against Carnegie Mellon on November 13, 1954 - but later returned. This cannon has a history.

[carney2]

...the other PL five teams are not in place to fill out preliminary exercises before The One Game Season.

It's all preseason until the Saturday before Thanksgiving.

[carney2]

The Rutgers guys, who want it back, are on a need-to-know basis only at this point, of course.

Here is my offer in compromise: The Pards and Squawks keep the cannon and rename it the Rutgers Cannon or Dirty Jerzy or some such.

[carney2]

I grew up in the Middle Three. God, I'm old. Cannon does indeed reside at LU. It used to be in the lobby at Grace Hall. Have no idea where it is now.

Are you on this, LFN?

[DFW HOYA]

Forget the Ignatius Shield/Sword/Bowl etc. etc. etc. Georgetown will probably drop football within the decade and Fordham is probably going to the CAA....

No on both claims.

Georgetown has no intention to drop football; its president (a backup QB in 1975,76) has reiterated as much. Losing records aren't going to do it either, as the baseball team has not posted a .500 record since 1986 (!) and it's still plugging along. Getting talent in the door would really help, however, that puts Georgetown at a major disadvantage in this regard.

Fordham is not going to the CAA either--it's a bad fit and would consign the Rams to Towson-like status in the league, which would really put pressure whether to maintain that program.

Absent scholarships, Fordham's best fit is a new Yankee Conference with the northeastersn CAA's and the Albany/Stony Brook tandem. Absent scholarships, Georgetown's best fit is the PL. But in a 60-scholarship PL? Uh, that's another story.

[Bogus Megapardus]

rename it the Rutgers Cannon or Dirty Jerzy or some such.

Gimme a minute, I'll work on this . . . . the Piscataway Peashooter or some such thing. Or maybe a bold name emblematic of its association with the birth of college football, like "the shot heard 'round the world." Or perhaps, in keeping with our humble and self-deprecating nature as a league, "the naught heard 'round the world."

[Sader87]

No on both claims.

Georgetown has no intention to drop football; its president (a backup QB in 1975,76) has reiterated as much. Losing records aren't going to do it either, as the baseball team has not posted a .500 record since 1986 (!) and it's still plugging along. Getting talent in the door would really help, however, that puts Georgetown at a major disadvantage in this regard.

Fordham is not going to the CAA either--it's a bad fit and would consign the Rams to Towson-like status in the league, which would really put pressure whether to maintain that program.

Absent scholarships, Fordham's best fit is a new Yankee Conference with the northeastersn CAA's and the Albany/Stony Brook tandem. Absent scholarships, Georgetown's best fit is the PL. But in a 60-scholarship PL? Uh, that's another story.

Believe me DFW, I'd rather see GTown in the PL than not but above and beyond the W-L ledger, the program and its facilities are pretty much a joke. I think the PL being non-scholarship has kept them afloat but once the league ultimately goes "63 scholarship" (and the league really has to ultimately or drop football entirely imo) GTown will really be in a pickle so to speak.

Fordham? Who knows? I'd rather they stayed as well, but as long as the PL drags its feet on scholarships, the greater their chances of leaving somewhere increase by the day.

[superman7515]

Not sure if you are able to read this or not but from the January 20, 1961 issue of The New York Times... New Gun on Raritan; Rutgers Alumni Replace Missing Little Brass Cannon, Football Trophy (http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0F13F6395912738DDDA90A94D9405B 818AF1D3)

[superman7515]

Also, this seems to suggest that the cannon was in use as a trophy prior to 1940....

After weatliering a rocky time in their opening games, the
Lehigh eleven bounced back and finished strong. They dropped
two of their first three games but won their last six straight, in-
cluding convincing victories over Lafayette and Rutgers. Also,
they retained the little brass cannon, symbolic of Middle Three
supremacy, with the result that the cannon will remain on South
Mountain until 1934 when Middle Three competition is resumed.

Epitome Yearbook (http://www.archive.org/stream/epitomeyearbook176lehi/epitomeyearbook176lehi_djvu.txt)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/08/what-happened-to-cannon.html

Didn't I have something better to do that to weight in on this - like prepare for tomorrow's Media Day, or work on my golf swing? In any event, I did the research and took a look at this. I enjoy this mystery; maybe I'll work in a question about it. ;)

[Bogus Megapardus]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/08/what-happened-to-cannon.html

maybe I'll work in a question about it.

Perhaps the canons of journalistic ethics require you to do so.

Nice piece in the blog (even though it's from an engineer).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Perhaps the canons of journalistic ethics require you to do so.

You must spread some reputation around before giving more to Bogus Megapardus. xlolx

[Go...gate]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/08/what-happened-to-cannon.html

Didn't I have something better to do that to weight in on this - like prepare for tomorrow's Media Day, or work on my golf swing? In any event, I did the research and took a look at this. I enjoy this mystery; maybe I'll work in a question about it. ;)

Thanks for posting!

Love the screen shot of the Reading Eagle.

Funny how Rutgers fit the Middle Atlantic Conference like a glove until the NJ Legislature made them the de facto New Jersey State University in the mid-late 1950's. New Brunswick was a good college town then, too, with the enclave of Highland Park just across the Raritan where many RU faculty resided.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Also, this seems to suggest that the cannon was in use as a trophy prior to 1940....


It seem clear that is was in use for a long time because Princeton stole it from Rutgers before the civil war (and before football). It seems to have disappeared several times; sometimes returned and sometimes replaced. This mystery could keep our feeble minds occupied until the season starts, at minimum.

[Engineer91]

I grew up in the Middle Three. God, I'm old. Cannon does indeed reside at LU. It used to be in the lobby at Grace Hall. Have no idea where it is now.

RichH2 Where there any marklings on that cannon? What was the size? Lehigh switched to a different cannon about 5 years ago (not sure if they are still using it). It is similar to a cannon that I have seen in some older pictures.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Bogie's live Media Day update -


Carolyn Femovich (http://patriotleaguegameday.blogspot.com/2010/08/live-at-patriot-league-media-day.html):

Moreover, the League's presidents are continuing to discuss the issue of scholarships for football as a League, with a decision expected by the end of December.

Lies, I tell you. All lies. xlolx



There are also 17 games against Ivy League teams highlighting the 2010 slate.

"Ivy Lite" smack goes here.

[Franks Tanks]

Interesting, so Fordham is now basically a "non-member" member of the PL?

They are a member of the PL, but they are not eligible to win the PL championship or recieve the automatic playoff bid.

They can make the playoffs as at large canidate.

[Ken_Z]

highlight for me from the Patriot League Gameday Blog:

Had some great conversations wiht all of the student-athletes on audio. About 30 media members here (take that, carney!) so everyone staying very busy.

http://patriotleaguegameday.blogspot.com/

[DFW HOYA]

Had some great conversations wiht all of the student-athletes on audio. About 30 media members here (take that, carney!) so everyone staying very busy.

Thirty? Did the Allentown Morning Call send the entire sports staff over?

[Sader87]

They are a member of the PL, but they are not eligible to win the PL championship or recieve the automatic playoff bid.

They can make the playoffs as at large canidate.

I fully understand but you'd have to say that their continued PL football membership as an "associate member, non-eligible member" is tenuous at best

[RichH2]

As best I can recall no markings on little cannon. It was operable I think but small . Thru the fog of 45 years hard to really estimate size now.

[carney2]

It seem clear that is was in use for a long time because Princeton stole it from Rutgers before the civil war (and before football). It seems to have disappeared several times; sometimes returned and sometimes replaced. This mystery could keep our feeble minds occupied until the season starts, at minimum.

Focus! FOCUS! The Little Brass Cannon was donated to Rutgers in 1931 for use at football games and was then donated by Rutgers for use as the Middle Three trophy in 1940. This is supposedly the one that disappeared into the mist on Squawk Mountain back in 1975. We need to find THE Cannon, not A cannon.

Also, F O C U S ! ! No need to hear about Fordham, Georgetown, 87's wet dreams, or Media Day. FIND THE FREAKIN' CANNON!

[jimbo65]

How about the "Athletic Cup" as a symbol of the rivalry?xeyebrowx

[Bogus Megapardus]

Thirty? Did the Allentown Morning Call send the entire sports staff over?

Yes. Reportedly they both were there.

[Franks Tanks]

Yes-- basically a scheduling agreement and that is all.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Yes-- basically a scheduling agreement and that is all.

Just like the Middle Three once was. Which brings us back on topic concerning the Cannon before carney explodes (to the moon, Alice!)

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

FWIW, here's a list of rivalry game trophies in Wiki.

http://www.ncaawiki.com/index.php/Category:Rivalry_Trophies

Saw a couple of other cannons in that list. Lehigh and Lafayette could go the way of Richmond and William & Mary (I-64 Bowl) and have an I-78 Bowl. Or they could honor a couple of revered coaches like Maine and UNH have done with the Brice-Cowell Musket. Or in this day of corporate sponsorship, they could have the Crayola Cup, Mack Truck Bowl, Bethlehem Steel Trophy, etc., but I think that would make LFN's head explode.

I don't know enough about the Lehigh Valley to suggest what object like a musket, beanpot, oaken bucket, boundary marker, etc. would make the most sense. I've read about the indigenous Lenni Lenape tribes quarrying jasper so maybe it would an interesting trophy.

15371

Carry on PL'ers, this game needs a trophy!!

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

BTW, the Little Three is indeed Williams, Amherst and Wesleyan Colleges from the NESCAC.

[Bogus Megapardus]

FWIW, here's a list of rivalry game trophies in Wiki.

http://www.ncaawiki.com/index.php/Category:Rivalry_Trophies



Great ideas, UNH Alum. The Dutchman's Shoes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutchman%27s_Shoes), the rivalry between Union College and RPI, is one of my favorites.

For Lehigh-Lafayette, perhaps we could name it "The Battle for the Irregular Diophantine M-tuple." It would be fitting (albeit non-standard). "Oblate Semispheroid" would work well too, but we might have a trademark problem (if anyone actually got the joke).

[carney2]

[COLOR="Navy"]I don't know enough about the Lehigh Valley to suggest what object like a musket, beanpot, oaken bucket, boundary marker, etc. would make the most sense. I've read about the indigenous Lenni Lenape tribes quarrying jasper so maybe it would an interesting trophy.


We've had this discussion before - in depth and, I believe, on this site. In my opinion, the best suggestion was The Olde leather Helmet. Be that as it may, we have here, in The Little Brass Cannon, a ready made trophy with a history. Only two things need to happen:

1. Joe Sterrett needs to get off his dead duff and find the thing.

and

2. A bunch of bungling bureaucrats need to agree on a set of simple rules that make The Little Brass Cannon the designated trophy for THE Game.

Not so difficult. And, it literally costs something approaching zero dollars beyond a can of Brasso to shine the thing up.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I tend to agree with carney - we don't have to make up a trophy because we have one already, it seems - notwithsatnding Lehigh's indefensible decision to bogart the thing for 35 years.

If there's a question about "brass," Pard engineers easily can determine the precise alloy used in forging with a non-destructive sample should it become necessary.


a can of Brasso to shine the thing up.

Caveat - loser's (read:Lehigh's) quarterback has to polish the cannon on the field with his jock strap after the game. That'll teach 'em.

[carney2]

I tend to agree with carney

Now, there's a phrase you don't hear very often.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

We've had this discussion before - in depth and, I believe, on this site. In my opinion, the best suggestion was The Olde leather Helmet. Be that as it may, we have here, in The Little Brass Cannon, a ready made trophy with a history. Only two things need to happen:

1. Joe Sterrett needs to get off his dead duff and find the thing.

and

2. A bunch of bungling bureaucrats need to agree on a set of simple rules that make The Little Brass Cannon the designated trophy for THE Game.

Not so difficult. And, it literally costs something approaching zero dollars beyond a can of Brasso to shine the thing up.

Rutgers probably doesn't want to acknowledge their "Middle Three" association now that they're FBS so I don't imagine they'd be a roadblock. xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

The Little Brass Cannon Game sounds good!!!! xnodx Not so sure about "The Game" though, don't the Elis and Cantabs have a trademark on that?

[superman7515]

Rutgers probably doesn't want to acknowledge their "Middle Three" association now that they're FBS so I don't imagine they'd be a roadblock. xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

Actually, Rutgers has been trying to track down this trophy themselves for the past 3 years that I'm aware of. They feel that because they donated it originally, it's their property, and they want to use it as a trophy for the winner of the round robin between Rutgers, UConn, & Syracuse in the Big East.

[carney2]

Not so sure about "The Game" though, don't the Elis and Cantabs have a trademark on that?

They have The Game. We have THE Game. Anyway, you hint at why we need the Cannon.


Actually, Rutgers has been trying to track down this trophy themselves for the past 3 years that I'm aware of. They feel that because they donated it originally, it's their property, and they want to use it as a trophy for the winner of the round robin between Rutgers, UConn, & Syracuse in the Big East.

Not the kind of naysaying we need to hear. Let them get their own stinkin' cannon. Squatter's rights and all of that.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Rutgers probably doesn't want to acknowledge their "Middle Three" association

Actually they do wish to acknowledge it. It helps promote their "image" just as their long-running (former) series with Princeton solidifies Rutgers as the "Birthplace of College Football." In fact, a small (yet vocal) minority of Rutgers fans has for years been petitioning for Rutgers' membership in the Patriot League, and continues to do so. I know for a fact that Rutgers fans are rather proud of their past association with Lehigh, Temple, Lafayette, W&M, Holy Cross and the Ivy members.

The "Middle Three" could mean more to Rutgers than one might think.

[Engineer91]

So is there a picture of this cannon anywhere? I will have to check through my collection of old programs. I don't recall any of the Lehigh/Lafayette programs having a picture. Any Lafayette collectors here that can check their Lafayette-Rutgers gameday programs?

I think I have a '59 and a '61 Lehigh-Rutgers programs so I will check those.

Will also have to check with "the source" at ScarletNation

[carney2]

...Lehigh's indefensible decision to bogart the thing for 35 years.

BOGART: (slang verb) To keep something all for oneself, thus depriving anyone else of having any. A slang term derived from the last name of famous actor Humphrey Bogart because he often kept a cigarette in the corner of his mouth, seemingly never actually drawing on it or smoking it. Often used with weed or joints but can be applied to anything.

Who knew?!! Thanks, Bogie - both of you.

[carney2]

Actually, Rutgers has been trying to track down this trophy themselves for the past 3 years that I'm aware of. They feel that because they donated it originally, it's their property, and they want to use it as a trophy for the winner of the round robin between Rutgers, UConn, & Syracuse in the Big East.

Has the University been trying to track it down (doubtful because they know where it is and would begin their "search" in Bethlehem - and one would suppose at high levels if it is the University that truly wants it), or is this yearning for a trophy coming from internet fandom and bloggery? If the latter, it's a lot like us and just as useful. I am giving serious consideration to moving this discussion to a higher court.

[superman7515]

Has the University been trying to track it down (doubtful because they know where it is and would begin their "search" in Bethlehem - and one would suppose at high levels if it is the University that truly wants it), or is this yearning for a trophy coming from internet fandom and bloggery? If the latter, it's a lot like us and just as useful. I am giving serious consideration to moving this discussion to a higher court.

Neither as far as I know. Two guys I know from here... http://www.rutgerstdclub.com/officers.htm were talking about it being of interest to the boosters for the reason I said above. That was about two or maybe three seasons ago. Not long after Schiano got them relevant again and UConn started to come on.

[WestCoastAggie]

I bet that Cannon is somewhere on Princeton's campus. I bet that PU Band stole it back in 1976.

[carney2]

I bet that Cannon is somewhere on Princeton's campus. I bet that PU Band stole it back in 1976.

Or perhaps the gremlins from Holy Fordgate or Bucktown snuck it on to a transporter and beamed its scrambled molecules to Atlantis or El Dorado. This may be something of a trivial matter, but it is a serious discussion.

[Bogus Megapardus]

No news from the Lower Sayre Chicken Coop on the whereabouts of our Cannon? This recalcitrance will not stand.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Next week I'll look into it. This week, too much to do.

Patience, Pards! xlolx

[ngineer]

RichH2 Where there any marklings on that cannon? What was the size? Lehigh switched to a different cannon about 5 years ago (not sure if they are still using it). It is similar to a cannon that I have seen in some older pictures.

For some reason I missed this thread the past few days. However, the discussion about "the cannon" is curious because Lehigh has been shooting a small brass cannon in the south endzone whenever we score. Am I to assume that is not "the" brass cannon? I had also heard a few years ago that the cannon had been stolen from Lehigh, but returned. a couple years ago. Regardless, do we want a cannon as the symbolic trophy for our ancient rivalry?

[Engineer91]

For some reason I missed this thread the past few days. However, the discussion about "the cannon" is curious because Lehigh has been shooting a small brass cannon in the south endzone whenever we score. Am I to assume that is not "the" brass cannon? I had also heard a few years ago that the cannon had been stolen from Lehigh, but returned. a couple years ago. Regardless, do we want a cannon as the symbolic trophy for our ancient rivalry?

The small brass cannon being used for about 5 years now did not come from the University and has no makings on it. It is very similar to a cannon that I saw in a football game picture from probably the 60's or early 70's. The cannon being used has been around for a while (showing age but I could not say how long. I believe this cannon was obtained from an Lehigh alumnus. Is this small brass cannon the "Little Brass Cannon"? Don't know, but a picture or someone with first hand recollection would go a long way to helping sort it out. Or even a statement from the admin that they definativly do or do not have the thing. I would think if they had it it would have been placed in the Athletic Hall of Fame.


If the cannon had old engravings talking about the Middle Three then it would be interesting as a trophy. Otherwise I like an old leather helmet. xtwocentsx

[RichH2]

Given the history of LU-LC a keg of beer may be the best trophy.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Otherwise I like an old leather helmet.

The leather helmet is appropriate because the first helmet was, after all, a Middle Three/Patriot League innovation at Lafayette in 1896. But the Little Brass Cannon is an existing, historical artifact, not a newly-designed trophy.

Even if the cannon winds up in the reception area at PL headquarters (as a further reminder to DFW HOYA of the true purpose of Patriot League football xwhistlex), it still ought to be located.

Once the research archivists in the Dravo Dungeons finally decide to cough the thing up, we can decide what to do with it.

But it must be found.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

For some reason I missed this thread the past few days. However, the discussion about "the cannon" is curious because Lehigh has been shooting a small brass cannon in the south endzone whenever we score. Am I to assume that is not "the" brass cannon? I had also heard a few years ago that the cannon had been stolen from Lehigh, but returned. a couple years ago. Regardless, do we want a cannon as the symbolic trophy for our ancient rivalry?

It's confusing. I looked at the history of cannons, the "Middle Three" and "The Rivalry" in a blog posting, and there's a lot of confusion. There were a bunch of cannons: Rutgers had one; Lehigh had one (donated to the athletic department from a student, used to signal whaling ships); and I think the "Middle Three" had a third one (rumored to have been donated by Rutgers - whether it's the same one as the one they were using, I'm not sure). And to top it off, both Rutgers and Lehigh have existing Brass Cannons they use for signaling scores.

I have half a mind to enlist the History Detectives about this! xlolx

[Bogus Megapardus]

I have half a mind to enlist the History Detectives about this!

If you get Elyse Luray to do the research, I want to be there. xcoolx

History Detectives might actually bite on this. Excellent idea.

[carney2]

do we want a cannon as the symbolic trophy for our ancient rivalry?

It's FREE and it has a history. C'mon, FREE is the word - perhaps the only word - that may get this moving. Personally, I'll take a cannon, a flower pot, a soiled handkerchief, anything. Let's get this moving.

[carney2]

If you get Elyse Luray to do the research, I want to be there. xcoolx

History Detectives might actually bite on this. Excellent idea.

So, who has the requisite artifact to get this going? (For those who do not whatch PBS's History detectives, the search always begins with an artifact.) Would the newspaper article suffice? Forget it. I think we will unravel this ourselves before PBS gets its act in gear. Our gears, in fact, are already in motion.

[Engineer91]

Checked out my 1959 and 1961 Lehigh-Rutgers programs. Both mention the Middle Three, no mention of a little brass cannon associated with it.

The only mention of a cannon was an excerpt from the Princeton Athletic News about the Rutgers-Princeton game in 1938 talking about "The cannon behind Old Nassau"

Wiki on Princeton has the following


"Cannon Green

Cannon Green is located on the south end of the main lawn. Buried in the ground at the center is the "Big Cannon." Its top protrudes from the earth and is traditionally spray-painted in orange with the current senior class year. A second "Little Cannon" is buried in the lawn in front of nearby Whig Hall. Both cannons were buried in response to periodic thefts by Rutgers students. The "Big Cannon" is said to have been left in Princeton by Hessians after the Revolutionary War but moved to New Brunswick during the War of 1812. Ownership of the cannon was disputed and the cannon was eventually taken back to Princeton partly by a military company and then by a hundred Princeton students. The "Big Cannon" was eventually buried in its current location behind Nassau Hall in 1840. In 1875, Rutgers students, in an attempt to recover the original cannon, stole the "Little Cannon" instead. The smaller cannon was subsequently recovered and buried as well. The protruding cannons are occasionally painted scarlet by Rutgers students who continue the traditional dispute."

With a reference from a Princeton.edu Web page which is no longer linked properly.

The excerpt from 1938 was a good read. Princeton was up 33-1 all time going into the game. going into the game 2 players from the very first game were still alive Judge George H. Large from Rutgers and William Preston Lane from Princeton who died the day of the game in 1938. Rugtgers finally picked up their 2nd victory that day while dedicating a new stadium.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This thing just gets deeper and deeper. Still looking into this.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Checked out my 1959 and 1961 Lehigh-Rutgers programs. Both mention the Middle Three, no mention of a little brass cannon associated with it.

I did a bit of a search in the digital archives of The Lafayette back when the issue was confined to the Lafayette board. Specific mention of the cannon is made through about 1955. After that, the "Middle Three Trophy" is mentioned into the seventies, but nothing specific about the Cannon. Do you guys have archives of The Brown and White digitized for searching?

[Engineer91]

I did a bit of a search in the digital archives of The Lafayette back when the issue was confined to the Lafayette board. Specific mention of the cannon is made through about 1955. After that, the "Middle Three Trophy" is mentioned into the seventies, but nothing specific about the Cannon. Do you guys have archives of The Brown and White digitized for searching?

I found online digitized images for volumes 1-107 (1894-2000). I guess I have some reading to do.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I appears the cannon was not operable, so we shouldn't look for one fired during games. From The Lafayette, 12-02-1955 (poorly misplaced commas notwithstanding):

http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/9756/lafayette12021955.jpg

[Engineer91]

I appears the cannon was not operable, so we shouldn't look for one fired during games. From The Lafayette, 12-02-1955 (poorly misplaced commas notwithstanding):

http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/9756/lafayette12021955.jpg

Been reading through some of the B&W there is a series of mentions of a Rutgers cannon stolen in 1934. That cannon was definitely operable and in fact was still charged when it was returned to Rutgers.

[Engineer91]

Nov 19th 1940
Lehigh 1st Student council meeting

[Engineer91]

1941 description of ceremony and firing of "Little Brass Cannon"

http://digital.lib.lehigh.edu/cdm4/cliparticle.php?id=DIVL209&CISOOBJECT=3876&CISOROOT=/bw2&CISOPTR=3876&DMSCALE=0&DMTEXT=cannon

[Bogus Megapardus]

Just to advance the ball a yard or three, here's (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?14808-Yale-Lehigh-trophy) an AGS post from a while back regarding the Yank-Townsend 1895 Trophy (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?14808-Yale-Lehigh-trophy) for the winner of the Yale-Lehigh game, an oft-contested challenge to this day. Therein carney2 advocates his perfectly well-reasoned case for "The Olde Leather Helmet."

In the event that it is placed in and used for profit or non-profit trade or commerce, we hereby assert a claim of United States Copyright (©) on behalf, and to the exclusive ownership, of carney2 for use of the phrase "The Olde Leather Helmet" including its likeness (tm) as a collegiate football conference championship trophy.

We also assert a claim of United States Copyright (©) on behalf, and to the exclusive ownership, of Rutgers University, Lehigh University and Lafayette College (individually and collectively) for use of the phrase "Middle Three" and "Middle Three Conference" in profit or non-profit trade or commerce as an association of collegiate athletic teams, as well as the use of the phrase "Little Brass Cannon" including its likeness (tm), and the phrase "Little Red Cannon" including its likeness (tm), in profit or non-profit trade or commerce as a collegiate football conference championship trophy; carney2, proprietor.

Lawyers out there - does that cover it as best as possible given the circumstances? I know we need continuous use . . . .

[Engineer91]

Another cannon!

Purchased by a Lehigh student to fire at games.

http://digital.lib.lehigh.edu/cdm4/cliparticle.php?id=DIVL101&CISOOBJECT=5302&CISOROOT=/bw2&CISOPTR=5302&DMSCALE=0&DMTEXT=cannon

with a picture!

http://digital.lib.lehigh.edu/cdm4/cliparticle.php?id=DIVL142&CISOOBJECT=5302&CISOROOT=/bw2&CISOPTR=5302&DMSCALE=0&DMTEXT=cannon

and searching for proof that Middle Three trophy no longer exists

1948
http://digital.lib.lehigh.edu/cdm4/cliparticle.php?id=DIVL68&CISOOBJECT=5607&CISOROOT=/bw2&CISOPTR=5607&DMSCALE=0&DMTEXT=cannon

[Bogus Megapardus]

Great work, Engineer91.

I think we do need History Detectives here . . . except that History Detectives will have to wonder why reasonably well-educated alumni of three long-established eastern colleges couldn't find the freakin' thing on their own.

Carney2 - any way you can persuade our esteemed moderators to change the title of this thread simply to "The Little Brass Cannon?" You're able to throw some weight around here. I have a feeling that this thread is going to hang around for quite some time.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Lehigh one in the picture is the whaling cannon that was donated by Hildebrand to signal Lehigh touchdowns. That's a red herring; that's not the same cannon.

Interesting that it was said that it had to be present at all "Middle Three" games, however. Rutgers flitted in and out of the "Middle Three" games, starting in the 1950s. At least one time Lehigh won the cannon and held onto the cannon for multiple years since Rutgers opted out of the rivalry.

But there are an awful lot of cannons. Add to the mix this (http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/08/what-happened-to-cannon.html):


Rutgers alumni have remedied a situation that had irked traditionalists on both sides of the Raritan.

For years a trophy known as the Little Brass Cannon was awarded to the "Middle Three" football round-robin between Rutgers, Lafayette and Lehigh. Rutgers has won the "Middle Three" title for the last three years but received naught but honor. The cannon, it seems, disappeared mysteriously while in the possession of Lehigh, which wrested it away from Lafayette in 1956.

Deciding that the silence had reigned long enough at New Brunswick, the Monmouth Country Rutgers Club purchased a cannon to be fired after Rutgers scores.

So Rutgers had a cannon that they reportedly donated as a trophy for the "Middle Three" rivalry, but when it disappeared they made a new one in 1961. There are entirely way too many cannons floating around for my tastes in this mystery.

[Bogus Megapardus]

There are entirely way too many cannons floating around for my tastes in this mystery.

Typical of Lehigh to throw in the towel. Let's find the friggin' cannon.

[Engineer91]

History of the Hildebrand Cannon from 1988 B&W article

http://digital.lib.lehigh.edu/cdm4/cliparticle.php?id=DIVL197&CISOOBJECT=58453&CISOROOT=/bw2&CISOPTR=58453&DMSCALE=0&DMTEXT=cannon

Sounds like this is the one that one of the Lehigh guys remembers seeing in Packard Lab

[carney2]

Before I kick this to a higher court as I promised to do, I need to see if I have this right - or as right as it seems to be at the moment: LFN and his feathered cohorts are now saying that there is a cannon excess, a virtual rabbit-like birthing and rebirthing of artillery on Squawk Mountain, and that no one can identify THE cannon if in fact it even exists. How exactly does one - actually an entire school (make that institution) - go about losing a cannon? The Buzzards (formerly known as Engineers who are, by the way, noted for precision and attention to detail) were the last known to possess THE Cannon. And now, "no comprende," "no habla ingles." Is the institution run by The Three Stooges?!

FIND THE FREAKIN' CANNON!!!!!

[Bogus Megapardus]

History of the Hildebrand Cannon from 1988 B&W article

http://digital.lib.lehigh.edu/cdm4/cliparticle.php?id=DIVL197&CISOOBJECT=58453&CISOROOT=/bw2&CISOPTR=58453&DMSCALE=0&DMTEXT=cannon

Sounds like this is the one that one of the Lehigh guys remembers seeing in Packard Lab


xoutofrepx


I am going to invite some Rutgers folks to this AGS thread as well, unless someone here has an objection. Moderators?

[Engineer91]

And one more cannon ... or is it two more

1997 vol 104 no 24

A article about the Marching 97 having a cannon given to them by an alumnus in the 60's which was stolen in the mid 80's. Band purchased a new cannon named it "The Baritone" and said that 1996 was the first season that the band was allowed to use the cannon durring the game. I have fired said Baritone.

vol 70 1958 or 59 "Big Three Cannon" Stolen from Rutgers
vol 90 1979 no 47 letter to editor about cannon being stolen from back stairwell of KA (start of references to KA's infamous cannon)

And that is the highlights from 1929-2000 in the B&W archive .... except ... and carny is going to love this one!

vol 64 no 19 "This file is restricted"
vol 65 no 20 "This file is restricted"

xeyebrowx xlolx

Last mention of Middle Three and the little brass cannon vol 72 no 9 around 1960-61

[Bogus Megapardus]

The Marching 97 are a prime suspect.

[Engineer91]

Given the history of LU-LC a keg of beer may be the best trophy.

How about the little brass tap handle :)

[ngineer]

Yes, and we could have "Taps" played while it is presented. Surprised that no one has mentioned bringing in the ATF....

[Engineer91]

Talked to several people at the 'Nova debacle. It sounds like the Lehigh Victory Cannon was lost in Wichita Falls in 1977 when Lehigh won the DII National Championship.

No info on the Little Brass Cannon however.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Talked to several people at the 'Nova debacle. It sounds like the Lehigh Victory Cannon was lost in Wichita Falls in 1977 when Lehigh won the DII National Championship.

No info on the Little Brass Cannon however.

Flights to Kickapoo Airpark in downtown Wichita Falls remain pricey and a bit hard to come by. Maybe we could send a representative from each school's archeology department and charge it as an academic research expense.

Thanks for keeping up with the search effort, Engineer91!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No update on finding the Brass Cannon, but I did unearth a great picture of The Cannon from 1950:

https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1/1471074_10151975506387684_1428780434_n.jpg

[DFW HOYA]

Flights to Kickapoo Airpark in downtown Wichita Falls remain pricey and a bit hard to come by.

The WF airport is up at Sheppard AFB, not downtown. No room for an airport in downtown--after all, with a population of 104,000, it's four times as large as Easton.

(But you already knew that.)

[Bogus Megapardus]

The WF airport is up at Sheppard AFB, not downtown. No room for an airport in downtown--after all, with a population of 104,000, it's four times as large as Easton.

(But you already knew that.)

Other than having posted that nearly four years ago (and having forgotten about it entirely), I suspect that I probably did so merely for the comedic effect of using "Kickapoo Airport" in a sentence.

[RichH2]

Still think a brass keg is the most apt trophy. Loser gets to fill it each year for the winner

[Bogus Megapardus]

Betcha this is where Lehigh flew in 1977.




http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/9295/ei9t.png

[Lehigh Football Nation]

On a strangely related note, I learned today that during Lehigh's 1950 season was the first time ever that the Lehigh football team boarded a flight to play a football game. The game was the one against Case Western in Ohio, won 21-20 in a squeaker.

[Bogus Megapardus]

On a strangely related note, I learned today that during Lehigh's 1950 season was the first time ever that the Lehigh football team boarded a flight to play a football game. The game was the one against Case Western in Ohio, won 21-20 in a squeaker.

Trivia (PL alums should know this): What does "Western Reserve" mean?

No cheating!

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Trivia (PL alums should know this): What does "Western Reserve" mean?

No cheating!

The original charters for the 13 colonies had the Pacific Ocean as the Western boundary. As more was learned about the new land, especially that the French and Mexicans/Spanish controlled vast areas, the boundaries became the Mississippi River. Connecticut's land extended to the Mississippi after a gap called NY and PA. Over time the only section of this land still part of CT was in Northeast Ohio called the Western Reserve. As in Connecticut's "Western Reserve".

Did you know that CT and PA fought a war over disputed land from the original charter definition? Can you name it? Again, no cheating!

[Bogus Megapardus]

The original charters for the 13 colonies had the Pacific Ocean as the Western boundary. As more was learned about the new land, especially that the French and Mexicans/Spanish controlled vast areas, the boundaries became the Mississippi River. Connecticut's land extended to the Mississippi after a gap called NY and PA. Over time the only section of this land still part of CT was in Northeast Ohio called the Western Reserve. As in Connecticut's "Western Reserve".

Did you know that CT and PA fought a war over disputed land from the original charter definition? Can you name it? Again, no cheating!

I know there was a dispute over the Wyoming Valley in Pennsylvania. Is that it?

If so, I'd have to ask Joe Biden for the details. He hails from that area and he was probably around then.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The original charters for the 13 colonies had the Pacific Ocean as the Western boundary. As more was learned about the new land, especially that the French and Mexicans/Spanish controlled vast areas, the boundaries became the Mississippi River. Connecticut's land extended to the Mississippi after a gap called NY and PA. Over time the only section of this land still part of CT was in Northeast Ohio called the Western Reserve. As in Connecticut's "Western Reserve".

Did you know that CT and PA fought a war over disputed land from the original charter definition? Can you name it? Again, no cheating!

I can't name the war but I do know that CT settlers moved to northeastern PA to Native American Lenape-controlled land, looting and burning some of the Lenape leaders alive (allegedly). Ultimately the Lenape were evicted to Oklahoma. I'm assuming that's the war.

Bogie is good, we're talking about the same thing.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I know there was a dispute over the Wyoming Valley in Pennsylvania. Is that it?

If so, I'd have to ask Joe Biden for the details. He hails from that area and he was probably around then.

Wow, I thought I'd at least get an "atta boy" from you for beating all the PL posters to the Western Reserve answer! xsmiley_wix

And yes, the dispute was over the Wyoming Valley, the Pennamite War.

http://colonialwarsct.org/1769.htm

A few years back, UNH had a kicker from Forty Fort, PA and I always thought that was an odd name for a town. When searching for a link to post about the Pennamite War, I found this article which also stated how Forty Fort got its name. Never ceases to amaze me what one learns being involved with AGS!!!! xbowx

BTW Bogie, I'm waiting to learn more PL beer history on the UNH-Lafayette thread. xnodx

[carney2]

Still think a brass keg is the most apt trophy. Loser gets to fill it each year for the winner

I'm sticking with my original suggestion, The Olde Leather Helmet. Get an old leather helmet, bronze it and mount it on a pedestal where the score of each year's game can be engraved. It would require cooperation (and $$, but I'm guessing not much) between the alumni associations of the two schools. The original presentation at this year's 150th would make it special.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Wow, I thought I'd at least get an "atta boy" from you for beating all the PL posters to the Western Reserve answer! xsmiley_wix

And yes, the dispute was over the Wyoming Valley, the Pennamite War.

http://colonialwarsct.org/1769.htm

A few years back, UNH had a kicker from Forty Fort, PA and I always thought that was an odd name for a town. When searching for a link to post about the Pennamite War, I found this article which also stated how Forty Fort got its name. Never ceases to amaze me what one learns being involved with AGS!!!! xbowx

BTW Bogie, I'm waiting to learn more PL beer history on the UNH-Lafayette thread. xnodx


OK, the "atta boy" was implied and now is expressly given. xbowx

On "Forty Fort," I have no idea but my guess is that it has to do with the 40th parallel which I believe was the lower boundary of the Western Reserve.

[Bogus Megapardus]

This discussion clearly belongs in the Lafayette at New Hampshire thread.

Also, I will be completing the beer history once I am less distracted. I have all the labels.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Wow, I thought I'd at least get an "atta boy" from you for beating all the PL posters to the Western Reserve answer! xsmiley_wix

And yes, the dispute was over the Wyoming Valley, the Pennamite War.

http://colonialwarsct.org/1769.htm

A few years back, UNH had a kicker from Forty Fort, PA and I always thought that was an odd name for a town. When searching for a link to post about the Pennamite War, I found this article which also stated how Forty Fort got its name. Never ceases to amaze me what one learns being involved with AGS!!!! xbowx

BTW Bogie, I'm waiting to learn more PL beer history on the UNH-Lafayette thread. xnodx

The page is good but it airbrushes the Lenape and the Native Americans out of the picture, IMO. I was under the impression most of the people living in the Wyoming Valley when the first CT settlers came there were Lenape. Wyoming was one of their strongholds after they were forced out of the Lehigh Valley after the Walking Purchase.

Though it does seem like the CT settlers had a better claim on the land.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Nope, I'm wrong on both counts as to "Forty Fort." I just looked it up. It's the 41st parallel and the "Forty" has an entirely different meaning.

[RichH2]

Is this thread an AP one. Do we get extra credit ?xrolleyesx

[Bogus Megapardus]

Is this thread an AP one. Do we get extra credit ?xrolleyesx

Only if you get some of your Supply Logistics grads to map the Lafayette - New Hampshire thread from beginning to end and provide tactical solutions for the loose ends.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A few years back, UNH had a kicker from Forty Fort, PA ..

This season, we have a kid from Forty-Fort:


Michael Baur TE 6-4/210 Forty Fort, Pa./Wyoming Valley West Engineering

Proving conclusively that this ought to be moved to the Lafayette at New Hampshire thread, Baur is the nephew of "he who shall not be named". Hint: he wore spots in college.

[Bogus Megapardus]

This season, we have a kid from Forty-Fort:



Proving conclusively that this ought to be moved to the Lafayette at New Hampshire thread, Baur is the nephew of "he who shall not be named". Hint: he wore spots in college.

Sheesh. Can't be all that dramatic. It's not like his Uncle Frank he made the cover of Sports Illustrated at Lehigh's expense or anything . . . xpeacex

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Nope, I'm wrong on both counts as to "Forty Fort." I just looked it up. It's the 41st parallel and the "Forty" has an entirely different meaning.

You didn't read the linked article. The Forty refers to the 40 Connecticut Yankees who took up residence at the fort. xrotatehx

And because this is my 4K post, I have to embellish it a tad. Nothing as grand as my kidnapping of Citdog saga with my 2K post mind you! But even after that post, I sit at 4K posts and I've still not been called a Scalliwag or Yankee Scum by Citdog. I guess I'm not trying hard enough!! xlolx xlolx Re-reading that epic post reminded me how many friends I've made on AGS and how well I got to know some of the cast of characters who call AGS home!! xbowx And I still can't believe I wrote that long piece and forget to include Mr. Klean leading a group from Statesboro.

And in the spirit of the thread and of the Brice-Cowell Musket, yes Lehigh-Lafayette should have a trophy!!

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

The page is good but it airbrushes the Lenape and the Native Americans out of the picture, IMO. I was under the impression most of the people living in the Wyoming Valley when the first CT settlers came there were Lenape. Wyoming was one of their strongholds after they were forced out of the Lehigh Valley after the Walking Purchase.

Though it does seem like the CT settlers had a better claim on the land.

I've read a few articles this morning from my Google search of the Pennamite Wars and I've yet to see the Lenape mentioned. I'll keep reading. Saw one reference to nobody settling into the area until the Native Americans were no longer a "threat".

FWIW, I learned about the Pennamite Wars when I purchased and read the book "Shapes of our States" after seeing the original show on the History Channel.

[Bogus Megapardus]

You didn't read the linked article. The Forty refers to the 40 Connecticut Yankees who took up residence at the fort. xrotatehx

And because this is my 4K post, I have to embellish it a tad. Nothing as grand as my kidnapping of Citdog saga with my 2K post mind you! But even after that post, I sit at 4K posts and I've still not been called a Scalliwag or Yankee Scum by Citdog. I guess I'm not trying hard enough!! xlolx xlolx Re-reading that epic post reminded me how many friends I've made on AGS and how well I got to know some of the cast of characters who call AGS home!! xbowx And I still can't believe I wrote that long piece and forget to include Mr. Klean leading a group from Statesboro.

And in the spirit of the thread and of the Brice-Cowell Musket, yes Lehigh-Lafayette should have a trophy!!

Congrats on # 4,000!

Did you know that "Scalliwag" is "Lilac Swag" spelled sideways? That's citdog's favorite kind. I think you know where I'm going with this . . . . xnodx

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'm sticking with my original suggestion, The Olde Leather Helmet. Get an old leather helmet, bronze it and mount it on a pedestal where the score of each year's game can be engraved. It would require cooperation (and $$, but I'm guessing not much) between the alumni associations of the two schools. The original presentation at this year's 150th would make it special.

It would get stolen, defaced and tarnished. Maybe even worn in certain instances. But perhaps that's the point. There's simply no way that the populations of Lafayette and Lehigh, given their geographical proximity and genetic predisposition toward animosity, would leave well enough alone.

Maybe if we could find a leather helmet that actually was worn in one of the historic games and put it in a glass box with a GPS tracker. Don't bronze it - just put it in a super-strong sealed case in an anoxic, humidity controlled environment with an inert gas atmosphere like Argon or whatever to keep the organic material from decaying. We have people in labs who can do this easily.

But where does it get displayed? At Lafayette, you can't just keep it burrowed away in the the Bourger Frankosaurium under Tavani's watchful eye. It really belongs to everyone at Lafayette.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I've read a few articles this morning from my Google search of the Pennamite Wars and I've yet to see the Lenape mentioned. I'll keep reading. Saw one reference to nobody settling into the area until the Native Americans were no longer a "threat".

FWIW, I learned about the Pennamite Wars when I purchased and read the book "Shapes of our States" after seeing the original show on the History Channel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teedyuscung


Teedyuscung left the Moravian settlement in 1754 and settled farther north in the Wyoming Valley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyoming_Valley).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teedyuscung#cite_note-explore-2) It was while living among other displaced Indians that Teedyuscung would declare himself "King of the Delawares" and assume a vital role in the negotiations between the Natives of Pennsylvania and the colonial government inPhiladelphia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teedyuscung#cite_note-indians-3)

Teedyuscung encountered opposition in the talks at Easton and in the period following the talks with the family of William Penn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Penn) and the Iroquois Confederacy that he claimed to "represent" in the negotiations.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teedyuscung#cite_note-indians-3) The powerful Iroquois Confederacy claimed the Wyoming Valley and that the Lenape simply lived there with its permission. A combination of competing interests lead to the eventual demise of Teedyuscung and his settlement at Wyolutimunk.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teedyuscung#cite_note-call-1)

The Colonies of Virginia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_of_Virginia) and Connecticut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connecticut_Colony) settled lands in Pennsylvania that were part of their charters.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teedyuscung#cite_note-call-1)The competing interests of the Iroquois, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, and Virginia did not allow Teedyuscung and his people to live in the peace that was promised.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teedyuscung#cite_note-call-1)
Teedyuscung was a casualty of the peace that brought about the end of the French and Indian War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_and_Indian_War) in Pennsylvania. The colonists agreed to pull back from settlements in the Ohio country in exchange for peace east of the Appalachians. The Iroquois refused to grant a permanent home for Teedyuscung and his people in the Wyoming Valley.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teedyuscung#cite_note-call-1) The promised investigation into the Walking Purchase was passed from the colonial government in Philadelphia to the British government in London (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London) where it was eventually dropped. Teedyuscung was left unsupported and unprotected. On April 19, 1763 his cabin and the village of Wyolutimunk was burned to the ground byarsonists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsonist). Teedyuscung was asleep in his cabin at the time and perished in the blaze.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teedyuscung#cite_note-call-1) The residents of Wyolutimunk fled and settlers from the Susquehanna Company of Connecticut (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Susquehanna_Company_of_Connecticut&action=edit&redlink=1) soon took their place. Teedyuscung's dream of a Lenape home in the Wyoming Valley ended with his death.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teedyuscung#cite_note-call-1)


I don't think Wikipedia has that Iroquois part right. They were pissed, but they had to begrudgingly call the Lenape their own tribe. But obviously there were a lot of competing interests for that territory, and not only the CT settlers and PA settlers.

[Bogus Megapardus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teedyuscung

I don't think Wikipedia has that Iroquois part right. They were pissed, but they had to begrudgingly call the Lenape their own tribe. But obviously there were a lot of competing interests for that territory, and not only the CT settlers and PA settlers.


Transferring this to the Lafayette - New Hampshire Thread!

[van]

You didn't read the linked article. The Forty refers to the 40 Connecticut Yankees who took up residence at the fort. xrotatehx

And because this is my 4K post, I have to embellish it a tad. Nothing as grand as my kidnapping of Citdog saga with my 2K post mind you! But even after that post, I sit at 4K posts and I've still not been called a Scalliwag or Yankee Scum by Citdog. I guess I'm not trying hard enough!! xlolx xlolx Re-reading that epic post reminded me how many friends I've made on AGS and how well I got to know some of the cast of characters who call AGS home!! xbowx And I still can't believe I wrote that long piece and forget to include Mr. Klean leading a group from Statesboro.

And in the spirit of the thread and of the Brice-Cowell Musket, yes Lehigh-Lafayette should have a trophy!!

Glad to see you know it's Lehigh-Lafayette, more prestigious school always noted first!

[Bogus Megapardus]

Glad to see you know it's Lehigh-Lafayette, more prestigious school always noted first!

It's not, and you know it.


The OFFICIAL Patriot League Policies and Procedures Manual describes it as "Lafayette - Lehigh"

The 150th Game Logo describes it at "Lafayette - Lehigh"

Lafayette is the older school - by far

Lafayette has played football longer

Lafayette has won more games in The Rivalry

Lafayette comes first alphabetically

Lafayette has won three college football national championships at the highest level. Lehigh has one Division II championship

There is no argument, and there are no facts, which would make it otherwise.

Ever.

[RichH2]

Aw Bogie. The usual nyah, nyah.... claims. Always , the most insecure who shouts the longest and loudest.
It's really simple. Lehigh Lafayette is correct ,The NY Times says so. :)

[Bogus Megapardus]

Aw Bogie. The usual nyah, nyah.... claims. Always , the most insecure who shouts the longest and loudest.
It's really simple. Lehigh Lafayette is correct ,The NY Times says so. :)

Nonsense.

Besides, Lehigh was my Safety School. xblehx

[ngineer]

It's not, and you know it.


The OFFICIAL Patriot League Policies and Procedures Manual describes it as "Lafayette - Lehigh"
The 150th Game Logo describes it at "Lafayette - Lehigh"
Lafayette is the older school - by far
Lafayette has played football longer
Lafayette has won more games in The Rivalry
Lafayette comes first alphabetically
Lafayette has won three college football national championships at the highest level. Lehigh has one Division II championship

There is no argument, and there are no facts, which would make it otherwise.

Ever.

Really? Some subjective opinion by a writer or two for some Gazette makes for some legitimate chest beating at the bar, but it was not "won". Lehigh is the only one who has "won" a national championship.

[Go...gate]

This discussion clearly belongs in the Lafayette at New Hampshire thread.

Also, I will be completing the beer history once I am less distracted. I have all the labels.

Indeed.

[Go...gate]

It's not, and you know it.


The OFFICIAL Patriot League Policies and Procedures Manual describes it as "Lafayette - Lehigh"
The 150th Game Logo describes it at "Lafayette - Lehigh"
Lafayette is the older school - by far
Lafayette has played football longer
Lafayette has won more games in The Rivalry
Lafayette comes first alphabetically
Lafayette's primary color is Maroon
Lafayette has won three college football national championships at the highest level. Lehigh has one Division II championship

There is no argument, and there are no facts, which would make it otherwise.

Ever.

Fixed it for you. What would you expect from a Colgate grad?

[Sader87]

BC-Holy Cross farts in Lafayette-Lehigh's general direction.....xrotatehx

[Bogus Megapardus]

BC-Holy Cross farts in Lafayette-Lehigh's general direction.....xrotatehx





http://www.thorninpaw.com/u/htdocs/thorni/image/grail131.jpg



I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper.

[ngineer]

BC-Holy Cross farts in Lafayette-Lehigh's general direction.....xrotatehx

Now that's a nasty crack!