Does URI AD Thorr Bjorn know something about PL scholarships?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.projo.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=URI&Number=908999&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&part=9&vc=1


I would have preferred URI going to the Patriot League, but Thorr said URI couldn't compete with no scholarships. He did say that the PL will be offering them soon. Maybe that could open the door at some point, for URI to join that league, along with UNH and UMaine. That would be a while before that could happen, though.

WHOA! xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx

[Bogus Megapardus]

I think good ol' Thorr has been reading Any Given Saturday (or maybe even Lehigh Football Nation!). What's his screen name?

EDIT: But LFN, investigative journalist that you are, can't you get your Mountain Hawk talons around that email for us?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Well, we can cross off MplsBison off that list... xlolx

[Bogus Megapardus]

From Projo.com (http://www.projo.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=URI&Number=908999&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&part=11&vc=1):


Posted by Boston (journeyman) on 7/8/10 09:51 AM:

How come they can't try and join the Patriot League? I have no knowledge as to why offering no scholarships at this point in-time matters (other than playing for I-AA championship but moving down to NEC does the same thing indirectly).

It appears the schools in that league are more prestigious and field a football team to enhance the quality campus life.

as opposed to . . .


Posted by SurfRI72 (old hand) on 7/8/10 09:53 AM:

I'd take the NEC over the Patriot League. Why don't we just stay where we are and spend some money on the team and facilities. There is a thing called fundraising, not to mention the [money] games against FBS teams with guaranteed payouts.

Discuss.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/07/rhodys-caa-rethink-part-three-patriot.html


Today, I'll talk about whether the Patriot League is affected at all by this move by Rhode Island - because as things stand right now with the league and their stance on offering largely need-based aid, it doesn't appear to be.

The problems are neatly summed up by a member of the Providence Journal's URI Forum, a meeting place for fans of the URI program. Reaction to the Rams' football move to the NEC have been mixed there, and some members were motivated to ask the Rams' athletic director, Thorr Bjorn, about his thought process. He was specifically asked, "why the NEC? Wouldn't the Patriot League be a better option for URI, with games versus A-10 leaguemate Fordham and nearby Holy Cross?"

A call to arms. If the Patriot League presidents aren't on a conference call talking about this right now, they're crazy.

[DFW HOYA]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/07/rhodys-caa-rethink-part-three-patriot.html
A call to arms. If the Patriot League presidents aren't on a conference call talking about this right now, they're crazy.

It's not even on the radar. Remember, the PL presidents try to keep this to a twice-a-year discussion.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's not even on the radar. Remember, the PL presidents try to keep this to a twice-a-year discussion.

I hope that's not the case, since this could be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for the PL to expand with some very good schools.

I find it highly interesting that Mr. Bjorn said that the PL re: scholarships will be "offering them soon". He didn't get that impression by reading it from any internet forum or press reports that I've been looking at.

[Bogus Megapardus]

He didn't get that impression by reading it from any internet forum or press reports that I've been looking at.

But he could have gotten that impression from the general tenor of this forum (or others similar) especially if the email from the reader (quoted in the post) perhaps was not as well thought out as it could have been.

Then again, I believe (based on no concrete information whatsoever) that the PL presidents already have made a decision to allow scholarships incrementally, contingent upon a number of variables (i.e., what will UNH do? Richmond? Harvard? Penn?)

[MplsBison]

Adding scholarships is not going to be enough to get the NE public flagships to join the PL.

The AI is going to have to be abolished. It's a non-value add for the league, so it should not be a hard decision.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Adding scholarships is not going to be enough to get the NE public flagships to join the PL.

The AI is going to have to be abolished. It's a non-value add for the league, so it should not be a hard decision.

MplsBison, please get something straight: The academic index is not going to keep any New England flagship college that wants to join and adhere to the formula (including redshirting and SAT/GPA requirements) from joining the Patriot League.

Its function, obviously, is to keep you from the Patriot League. In that endeavor it has succeeded remarkably well to date.

[WestCoastAggie]

Adding scholarships is not going to be enough to get the NE public flagships to join the PL.

The AI is going to have to be abolished. It's a non-value add for the league, so it should not be a hard decision.

Wouldn't issuing Athletic Schollys make the Academic Index obsolete in a way?

On a side note, with the NCAA becoming stricter with the APR, Wouldn't the AI help keep teams in the PL from ever dropping below the 925 mark?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Wouldn't issuing Athletic Schollys make the Academic Index obsolete in a way?

On a side note, with the NCAA becoming stricter with the APR, Wouldn't the AI help keep teams in the PL from ever dropping below the 925 mark?

Not really. We're very small colleges. A very high percentage of our student bodies (something like 30%) participate in more than 20 Division I sports. While it may not seem like it, the Patriot League almost always ranks among the top conferences in the nation (yes, even the BCS conferences) in a great many "other" sports. The PL spreads the money around and the girls' sports really do get a big piece of the pie. The PL has to keep its admission standards up there because we are so small that any break for even on athlete would reflect exponentially on the schools' overall admissions profile. We don't quite have the caché of the Ivy League so any small decline in admissions profile is looked upon very disfavorably. It's an ongoing balance among the faculty, the Board of Trustees, the Department of Athletic and the students.

Scholarships are not incompatible with the AI, however. Since 2005, all PL schools have been giving basketball scholarships. All basketball players must meet the AI. PL football coaches all have agreed that they would be able to offer up to 63 scholarships and be able to adhere to the academic index at the same time. It means that students have to be recruited form all across the nation, but it can be done.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Wouldn't issuing Athletic Schollys make the Academic Index obsolete in a way?

On a side note, with the NCAA becoming stricter with the APR, Wouldn't the AI help keep teams in the PL from ever dropping below the 925 mark?

No and no. The AI just measures the academic qualifications of the incoming class - once they get in, they will either succeed or fail. True, if you had good academic numbers in high school you are likely to keep those numbers up in university, but it's not a guarantee. As for scholarships, that's just a measurement of financial need. That should have nothing to do with the academic side of the equation.

[RichH2]

Interesting but again a discussion without substance. This topic, including expansion , contraction merit aid will only become relevant when the PL announces its decision in Dec.

A side note, Bogie given the tenor of your recent posts it appears that you are aiming to displace Carney as the resident curmudgeon. The king is dead. Long live the king.

[MplsBison]

Not really. We're very small colleges. A very high percentage of our student bodies (something like 30%) participate in more than 20 Division I sports. While it may not seem like it, the Patriot League almost always ranks among the top conferences in the nation (yes, even the BCS conferences) in a great many "other" sports. The PL spreads the money around and the girls' sports really do get a big piece of the pie. The PL has to keep its admission standards up there because we are so small that any break for even on athlete would reflect exponentially on the schools' overall admissions profile. We don't quite have the caché of the Ivy League so any small decline in admissions profile is looked upon very disfavorably. It's an ongoing balance among the faculty, the Board of Trustees, the Department of Athletic and the students.

Scholarships are not incompatible with the AI, however. Since 2005, all PL schools have been giving basketball scholarships. All basketball players must meet the AI. PL football coaches all have agreed that they would be able to offer up to 63 scholarships and be able to adhere to the academic index at the same time. It means that students have to be recruited form all across the nation, but it can be done.

UNH and Maine are not going to want to recruit nationally just to they can scrap together enough kids with top level FCS talent that can also meet the AI. What a ridiculous requirement for regional, public schools.

It should be up to each school's individual admissions department. What UNH and Maine do at their own school has absolutely nothing to do with the types of kids Lehigh and Lafayette admit.

[MplsBison]

No and no. The AI just measures the academic qualifications of the incoming class - once they get in, they will either succeed or fail. True, if you had good academic numbers in high school you are likely to keep those numbers up in university, but it's not a guarantee. As for scholarships, that's just a measurement of financial need. That should have nothing to do with the academic side of the equation.

Athletic scholarships should have absolutely nothing to do with financial need.

If the starter comes from a millionaire family, it doesn't matter, he should get a full scholarship over a kid who comes from the ghetto but is a back-up.

[Gordon Shumway]

MplsBison, please get something straight: The academic index is not going to keep any New England flagship college that wants to join and adhere to the formula (including redshirting and SAT/GPA requirements) from joining the Patriot League.

Its function, obviously, is to keep you from the Patriot League. In that endeavor it has succeeded remarkably well to date.

While I seriously doubt UNH has any immediate plans to be anywhere but the CAA, I learned a long time ago to never say never. Like you, I don't see the AI being a dealbreaker if they wanted to be in the PL (scholarships yes, AI no). It isn't like UNH is going out of their way to find athletes that are not representative of the general student body. Last year they posted a 97% GSR, which was exceeded only by Notre Dame, Colgate, and the Naval Academy. I realize that only tells a part of the story, but the point is they are already committed to recruiting athletes that have a reasonable chance to succeed.

[Pard94]

I think good ol' Thorr has been reading Any Given Saturday (or maybe even Lehigh Football Nation!). What's his screen name?

EDIT: But LFN, investigative journalist that you are, can't you get your Mountain Hawk talons around that email for us?

If it's not "Thorr's Hammer" than this guy isn't PL or AGS worthy.xlolx

[DFW HOYA]

What is the magic number by which a vote on PL scholarships is both consensus and mandate?

7-0? (Sure, but highly unlikely.)
6-1? (That remaining one won't be resting easy.)
5-2? (Is that enough?)
4-3? (Certainly a majority, but not a governing one.)

[Pard94]

This is why this particular conversation gets tedious quick. UNH, perennial national powerhouse, is going to join the Patriot League? Riiiiiiiight.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This is why this particular conversation gets tedious quick. UNH, perennial national powerhouse, is going to join the Patriot League? Riiiiiiiight.

They just lost two bus ride league games, with a promise of a third one leaving in 2012. The replacements in their league schedule are in Virginia (Old Dominion) and Georgia (Georgia State). Two schools who already get a pittance from their states just saw their travel costs go up easily by six figures per year. They also saw one of their former fifty-year rivals basically announce that they are "downgrading" to the NEC at least in part to cut down on travel costs. Trust me, this is not idle chatter.

[Pard94]

They just lost two bus ride league games, with a promise of a third one leaving in 2012. The replacements in their league schedule are in Virginia (Old Dominion) and Georgia (Georgia State). Two schools who already get a pittance from their states just saw their travel costs go up easily by six figures per year. They also saw one of their former fifty-year rivals basically announce that they are "downgrading" to the NEC at least in part to cut down on travel costs. Trust me, this is not idle chatter.

OK...let's make it interesting. I'll bet you $100,000 that UNH never sees the light of Patriot League day.

[MplsBison]

While I seriously doubt UNH has any immediate plans to be anywhere but the CAA, I learned a long time ago to never say never. Like you, I don't see the AI being a dealbreaker if they wanted to be in the PL (scholarships yes, AI no). It isn't like UNH is going out of their way to find athletes that are not representative of the general student body. Last year they posted a 97% GSR, which was exceeded only by Notre Dame, Colgate, and the Naval Academy. I realize that only tells a part of the story, but the point is they are already committed to recruiting athletes that have a reasonable chance to succeed.

No offense (hey, NDSU is in the same boat!), but for public schools graduation rates really don't mean much more than making sure all the football players are in easy majors.

[Sader87]

UNH to the PL or Holy Cross joining the Big East? Which is more far-fetched???

[colorless raider]

The latter.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No offense (hey, NDSU is in the same boat!), but for public schools graduation rates really don't mean much more than making sure all the football players are in easy majors.

You know... oh, never mind. xlolx

[WestCoastAggie]

No offense (hey, NDSU is in the same boat!), but for public schools graduation rates really don't mean much more than making sure all the football players are in easy majors.

Now I know you aren't saying that it's okay to "pimp" athletes by placing them in majors that will not give them a chance to become productive citizens and only use them for their Athletic Abilities to make money for the University?

xeyebrowx

[carney2]

Bogie given the tenor of your recent posts it appears that you are aiming to displace Carney as the resident curmudgeon. The king is dead. Long live the king.

Curmudgeon is a lifetime appointment.

[dukie]

I don't understand the discussion about travel for schools who are affiliate members. Each CAA football school has only four away games each year. JMU's away games this year are Towson, Maine, Richmond and Nova.

We may not be the southern most school but we are not close to Maine, UNH or Umass. Next year we will travel to UNH and Umass. None of these trips are going to break the athletic budget. We only have to travel to these schools for football. If we were traveling for every sport, then I would understand the travel argument.

I have no idea what the northern affiliate schools will do in the coming years. My guess is they will stay in the CAA as long as they can be competitive. Time will tell how long that will be. The Southern schools are spending millions on facilities. Over time, the gap of talent in players will start to show.

Look at Appy in the So Con. They spend more $$ than any other school in that conference and they have won the last five league titles. Schools may not be able to buy a title but they sure can put themselves in real good shape by spending.

[Wildcat80]

UNH I am sure wants to continue to compete in the CAA for football. The only other sport that matters is Hockey which is its own animal. Personally I'd offset any increase in travel costs with a FBS money game every year. Travel by air to Georgia is easier on players than a 6 hour bus trip to Colgate. Plus air travel is a recruiting tool---players want to fly to games. Players want to be on ESPN playing Pittsburgh. UNH has slowly started a strategic plan to improve facilities. If this actually happens I bet we stay in the CAA. If it does not we'd almost have to drop down in schollies to 45--cause we STILL need upgraded facilities in the Patriot. Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette, Holy Cross...probably soon Bucknell... ALL have great facilities! Does UNH aspire to greatness in all things as the state university of NH? Hope so!!

[MplsBison]

I don't understand the discussion about travel for schools who are affiliate members. Each CAA football school has only four away games each year. JMU's away games this year are Towson, Maine, Richmond and Nova.

We may not be the southern most school but we are not close to Maine, UNH or Umass. Next year we will travel to UNH and Umass. None of these trips are going to break the athletic budget. We only have to travel to these schools for football. If we were traveling for every sport, then I would understand the travel argument.

I have no idea what the northern affiliate schools will do in the coming years. My guess is they will stay in the CAA as long as they can be competitive. Time will tell how long that will be. The Southern schools are spending millions on facilities. Over time, the gap of talent in players will start to show.

Look at Appy in the So Con. They spend more $$ than any other school in that conference and they have won the last five league titles. Schools may not be able to buy a title but they sure can put themselves in real good shape by spending.

Travel costs money and UNH and Maine do not pull in the revenue from football like JMU does.

[JMUNJ08]

Travel costs money and UNH and Maine do not pull in the revenue from football like JMU does.

While we do generate some revenue we are really building our alumni base and the amount of gifts each year. Besides that, our other plus is being a state university and getting state funding for things like the upgrades to bridgeforth. Its really been our schools willingness to spend the money to build athletics, not the revenue we generate as we all know at the FCS level.

[dukie]

JMU loses money on football. There is revenue generated each year but the expenses are much more than the revenue.

The state does not fund athletics in Virginia. There are no tax dollars being used for the stadium renovation. I believe it was funded by a bond offering, private funding of almost $6 mil and the university reserve fund.

The northern CAA schools can afford the travel to the four CAA away games each year. This is not a good argument for why they would leave the CAA.

NU left because they could not find a facility in the city of Boston to build a stadium that would allow them to remain competitive. HU left because their administration felt there was not enough fan/student/alumni interest to keep the program alive. These would be the reasons the remaining northern schools would leave.

[ngineer]

No offense (hey, NDSU is in the same boat!), but for public schools graduation rates really don't mean much more than making sure all the football players are in easy majors.

I can only speak to the curriculum at Lehigh, but knowing the other schools in the PL, there are no "communications majors", "recreation management majors" or other 'basket weaving" majors for athletes to hide. Indeed, we have lost a fair number of highly touted recruits over the years, who could not handle both the academic and athletic rigors. Lehigh's former wrestling coach, Greg Strobel, was recruiting the #1 heavyweight recruit and went to show him the academic buildings on campus, to which the kid responded, "Don't waste your time, I just want to wrestle." Strobel then told him that he was wasting his time considering Lehigh. The kid went on to be a two time NCAA Champion at the usual wrestling factories in the midwest....majoring in wrestling. As Strobel later said, there is no way to hide from the academics at Lehigh. The same can be said at all of the other PL schools. I am sure the PL presidents would take a close look at admitting any state university as an 'all sports' member.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The northern CAA schools can afford the travel to the four CAA away games each year. This is not a good argument for why they would leave the CAA.

NU left because they could not find a facility in the city of Boston to build a stadium that would allow them to remain competitive. HU left because their administration felt there was not enough fan/student/alumni interest to keep the program alive. These would be the reasons the remaining northern schools would leave.

NU and HU were all-sports members of the CAA, whose choice of football was either to leave the CAA entirely in order to pursue less expensive football, or remain in the CAA and drop football. UNH and Maine's situations are completely, completely different, as are URI's and UMass'. They are all associate members in CAA football only. They could pack up from CAA football tomorrow and wouldn't have to worry about a home for their basketball programs - matter of fact, URI's and UMass' home in basketball is ****ed nice in the A-10.

[MplsBison]

JMU loses money on football. There is revenue generated each year but the expenses are much more than the revenue.

The state does not fund athletics in Virginia. There are no tax dollars being used for the stadium renovation. I believe it was funded by a bond offering, private funding of almost $6 mil and the university reserve fund.

The northern CAA schools can afford the travel to the four CAA away games each year. This is not a good argument for why they would leave the CAA.

NU left because they could not find a facility in the city of Boston to build a stadium that would allow them to remain competitive. HU left because their administration felt there was not enough fan/student/alumni interest to keep the program alive. These would be the reasons the remaining northern schools would leave.

JMU's football program had almost $5 million in revenue for the 2008 season, compared to $4.7 million in expenses.
http://www.ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetails.aspx?756e697469643d3233323432332679656 1723d32303038267264743d372f31312f323031302031313a3 4353a333220414d


Compare that to UNH, Maine for the 2008 season:

UNH: $3.4 million expenses/$2 million revenue
http://www.ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetails.aspx?756e697469643d3138333034342679656 1723d32303038267264743d372f31312f323031302031313a3 4373a353120414d

Maine: $3.4 million expenses/$2.8 million revenue
http://www.ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetails.aspx?756e697469643d3136313235332679656 1723d32303038267264743d372f31312f323031302031313a3 5323a313420414d


UNH and Maine do not compete with the top CAA programs in terms of revenue generation. It's simply not there.

[MplsBison]

I can only speak to the curriculum at Lehigh, but knowing the other schools in the PL, there are no "communications majors", "recreation management majors" or other 'basket weaving" majors for athletes to hide. Indeed, we have lost a fair number of highly touted recruits over the years, who could not handle both the academic and athletic rigors. Lehigh's former wrestling coach, Greg Strobel, was recruiting the #1 heavyweight recruit and went to show him the academic buildings on campus, to which the kid responded, "Don't waste your time, I just want to wrestle." Strobel then told him that he was wasting his time considering Lehigh. The kid went on to be a two time NCAA Champion at the usual wrestling factories in the midwest....majoring in wrestling. As Strobel later said, there is no way to hide from the academics at Lehigh. The same can be said at all of the other PL schools. I am sure the PL presidents would take a close look at admitting any state university as an 'all sports' member.

Still...you have top academic schools in the country competing in the top public school athletic conferences in the country. Northwestern in the Big Ten and Stanford in the Pac 10.

Neither are winning the conference on a consistent basis, but they do win it from time to time and they aren't getting blown out of the water consistently by the Ohio State's and Oregon's.


And neither NW or Stanford lose any academic credibility because the Big Ten and Pac 10 have no AI!

[Doc QB]

And neither NW or Stanford lose any academic credibility because the Big Ten and Pac 10 have no AI!

Yes, but they have been in those conferences a long time, and they have significant history. This tradition is different in those big conferences and has stood for long periods of time. The Patriot Leauge was built on a foundation of academic achievement in a set of schools with similar backgrounds, and this foundation remains the backbone of the conference and something its athletes (and even the students) are proud of. Not everyone can go there and play ball and graduate, and it is special.

[Doc QB]

And neither NW or Stanford lose any academic credibility because the Big Ten and Pac 10 have no AI!

But, they DO lose athletes to other members of their conference all the time, guys they can not recruit or admit. They have their own, separate, institutional standards (which, is an AI without the name). Simple facts.

[MplsBison]

Yes, but they have been in those conferences a long time, and they have significant history. This tradition is different in those big conferences and has stood for long periods of time. The Patriot Leauge was built on a foundation of academic achievement in a set of schools with similar backgrounds, and this foundation remains the backbone of the conference and something its athletes (and even the students) are proud of. Not everyone can go there and play ball and graduate, and it is special.

Here's the truth of it:

Not everyone can go to Lehigh, play ball and graduate. It *is* special.
Not everyone can go to Lafayette, play ball and graduate. It *is* special.
.
.
.

It's the *school* that makes that special. It's the school that has tough academic standards and admissions policies.

If Lehigh or Lafayette joined the CAA, it would be no different. They would still have rigorous academic standards and admissions policies, they would still only recruit the top academic players and they would still have some of the best *student*-athletes in the nation.


Therefore, the AI has nothing to do with anything. It's a non-value add for the conference.

It's akin to having an anti-bear rock in your pocket. The rock is in your pocket and there aren't any bears around, right? Therefore, the rock must keep bears away.

[MplsBison]

But, they DO lose athletes to other members of their conference all the time, guys they can not recruit or admit. They have their own, separate, institutional standards (which, is an AI without the name). Simple facts.

Nothing wrong with a *school* having tough academic standards!