Patriot League Council of Presidents Meeting

[Bogus Megapardus]

They're meeting in New York City as I write. The Patriot League will define its destiny within the next forty-eight hours although the outcome of the discussions might not be made public for quite some time.

The vast majority of college students in America (all NCAA divisions and the NAIA included) play non-scholarship football. The Patriot League is the best, most competitive non-scholarship football conference in the nation (challenge me on this if you will). It's time either to face the competition head-on or to maintain the tradition that playing for a PL school is a privilege.

I have a feeling about how this will play out. These are conservative institutions. Make the wrong choice and there's no going back. The correct choice will solidify and enhance the viability of these colleges for years to come.

Vote with your heads; vote with your hearts. Either way, please make the correct decision.

[jimbo65]

I hope they allow schollies. Based on zero information, my guess is that they will not. I hope I am wrong.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I hope they allow schollies. Based on zero information, my guess is that they will not. I hope I am wrong.

I am so hoping that Fordham remains in the Patriot League. I recognize the criticism (particularly on the Fordham message board), but this is where Fordham belongs.

[Go...gate]

Agreed that it is time for FB scholarships. Otherwise I cannot see the conference surviving.

[CrusaderBob]

With a lame duck and and acting President at Bucknell and Colgate respectively and new Presidents starting July 1 at both, I don't expect anything from this meeting, though it would be a nice surprise to be wrong.

Based on nothing, I suspect that at this meeting, whatever committee has been looking at the situation since last year will report out on their findings with a final proposal on implementing scholarships. That will be the plan the Presidents take back to their respective boards for approval at the Fall BOT meetings at each school, which will determine the final vote to be taken at the December meeting this year.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Agreed that it is time for FB scholarships. Otherwise I cannot see the conference surviving.

Life without Colgate among us is an undeserving destiny. My hope remains; not only as to football, but as well in those contests our institutions have suffered for more than a hundred years - win or lose. Long live.

[Go...gate]

Life without Colgate among us is an undeserving destiny. My hope remains; not only as to football, but as well in those contests our institutions have suffered for more than a hundred years - win or lose. Long live.

I'm with you, Bogus; IMO, Colgate has a strange split in that one on hand, they have a lot of people, mostly alumni (including myself), who see scholarships as a mere ratification of what went on under the table for years and years with "equivalencies"; on the other hand, they seem to have a growing cadre of faculty, students and a small core of more recent alumni that want the place to be like Williams, Amherst or Bates and would have no issue with us being Division III. My fervent hope is that the former group (which seems to be well represented on our BOT) prevails.

[Bogus Megapardus]

With a lame duck and and acting President at Bucknell and Colgate respectively and new Presidents starting July 1 at both, I don't expect anything from this meeting, though it would be a nice surprise to be wrong.

Based on nothing, I suspect that at this meeting, whatever committee has been looking at the situation since last year will report out on their findings with a final proposal on implementing scholarships. That will be the plan the Presidents take back to their respective boards for approval at the Fall BOT meetings at each school, which will determine the final vote to be taken at the December meeting this year.

Crusader Bob - Hamilton, Lewisburg and the Lafayette Valley are an arduous trek for a PL student. Everyone knows that. Let's find a way to make that journey more pleasant, palatable and efficient for a Holy Cross athlete. This is how our efforts are better employed.

Geographically, Cambridge, New Haven and Hanover row in the same boat as Worcester. We can do better by them as well.

[Sader87]

Any chance we can still get in the Big East?????

[crusader11]

Any chance we can still get in the Big East?????

Shut it indian. Give it a rest.

[Sader87]

Have to laugh (or you'd cry).

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'm with you, Bogus; IMO, Colgate has a strange split in that one on hand, they have a lot of people, mostly alumni (including myself), who see scholarships as a mere ratification of what went on under the table for years and years with "equivalencies"; on the other hand, they seem to have a growing cadre of faculty, students and a small core of more recent alumni that want the place to be like Williams, Amherst or Bates and would have no issue with us being Division III. My fervent hope is that the former group (which seems to be well represented on our BOT) prevails.

Go...Gate: we are Williams, Amherst and Bates - only more. Much more, IMHO. We have the same academic profile and an even broader demographic. They want to seem more deserving because they eschew Division I athletics. Conversely, we know that we strive for more by including top athletes among our profile - thereby including a group of candidates with the potential to do far more for the common good. We have shown that our student athletes go on the become the very best. Let's include, selectively, all of society and not simply certain elitists, shall we?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Any chance we can still get in the Big East?????

Go for it, Sader.

[WestCoastAggie]

Just thank god that the PL doesn't have the issues that the MEAC or SWAC have.

[DFW HOYA]

Based on nothing, I suspect that at this meeting, whatever committee has been looking at the situation since last year will report out on their findings with a final proposal on implementing scholarships. That will be the plan the Presidents take back to their respective boards for approval at the Fall BOT meetings at each school, which will determine the final vote to be taken at the December meeting this year.

Georgetown would not require board-level approval whether to add scholarships in a sport, as it remains more of a budget issue than a philosophical one.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Just thank god that the PL doesn't have the issues that the MEAC or SWAC have.

WestCoastAggie - the members of the Patriot League are not directly beholden to governmental budget-wielding authorities but they are subject to boards of trustees whose "day jobs" typically mandate supervision over the very financial markets upon which all govermentally-authorized financial agencies rely. So the PL is prone to greater (and more sensitive) subjective deviation than the more publicly transparent finances of the MEAC and SWAC. It can be a much tougher job, IMHO.

[carney2]

They're meeting in New York City as I write. The Patriot League will define its destiny within the next forty-eight hours although the outcome of the discussions might not be made public for quite some time.

Bogie, you appear to be yet another who thinks that something substantive is going on at these meetings. Not me. That is not to say that there won't be cocktail party and water cooler conversations, but my 6th sense - and 7th and 8th - tell me that there is nothing going on here that can be termed "destiny." My recollection is that these people said December, and I believe that they actually meant December - or later if they can get away with it.

On another not unrelated note, didn't Carolyn the Femovich state at one point that we might hear something about League expansion as early as June, 2010?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Georgetown would not require board-level approval whether to add scholarships in a sport, as it remains more of a budget issue than a philosophical one.

None of the Patriot League members necessarily requires philosophical approval because all allow scholarships in at least one sport. My hope remains that Georgetown stays in the fold, that's all. It's critical that Georgetown remains a PL football member.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Bogie, you appear to be yet another who thinks that something substantive is going on at these meetings. Not me. That is not to say that there won't be cocktail party and water cooler conversations, but my 6th sense - and 7th and 8th - tell me that there is nothing going on here that can be termed "destiny." My recollection is that these people said December, and I believe that they actually meant December - or later if they can get away with it.

On another not unrelated note, didn't Carolyn the Femovich state at one point that we might hear something about League expansion as early as June, 2010?

Carney2 - I am of a mind that the cocktail-influenced participants largely will have have made up their minds prior to tomorrow afternoon's Happy Hour but that they will not declare their determinations until sobriety grasps firm reign later in the year.

I second your recollection that an expansion announcement is due imminently.

[CrusaderBob]

Georgetown would not require board-level approval whether to add scholarships in a sport, as it remains more of a budget issue than a philosophical one.

It is not a philosophical issue at any school as thay all offer athletic schoalrships in at least one sport - most in more than one sport. It is clearly a budget issue at every school and in some cases a Title IX issue.

And though it may not require outright approval of the BOT, I find it hard to believe that a decision at GU that requires an increase in budget of $1 - $2 million (about a 6% increase in overall athletic budget and a 60% - 125% increase in FB budget) doesn't need some form of buy in from the board.

Regardless, I'd still be surprised if anything is announced on Tuesday or Wednesday.

[Ken_Z]

cannot see how they announce expansion without a decision on scholarships one way or the other. unless of course they expand with schools without football programs e.g. Loyola, Fairfield which would make no sense.

my prediction for announcements from this meeting:
- "we had some excellent discussion on the issue of how we will respond to Fordham's decision to institute merit aid. we remain on target for a decision by December of this year."
- "we are also pleased to announce that discussions with the Ivy League have proved fruitfull and we have reached an informal scheduling arrangement going forward. this agreeement includes all Ivy schools, all Patriot schools including our football affiliates, and school X&Y"

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'd still be surprised if anything is announced on Tuesday or Wednesday.

Beyond shocked if anything is announced right away.

[Bogus Megapardus]

- "we are also pleased to announce that discussions with the Ivy League have proved fruitful and we have reached an informal scheduling arrangement going forward."

How foretelling would that be?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I have a funny feeling much of the discussion will involve Army and Navy and their commitment to the conference. If Notre Dame joins the Big Ten, there may be overtures to join the Big East, ACC or "other" in all sports. Heck, they've already been rumored to be moving to an "ACC-16" in the future.

Realignment is the discussion happening in every other conference meeting around the country, and the PL will be no different. I hope. Because I want Army and Navy in the PL.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I want Army and Navy in the PL.

Me too. Other than football, it remains their best option.

[RichH2]

Crusader is correct that the only decision from this meeting will be the merit aid format, if adopted from committee that will be brought back to each school for ratification. Final decision will be in Dec. I fluctuate back and forth as to whether any decision will ultimately be made. I still feel it is an absolute necessity for the PL to adopt merit aid, if we ever hope to exist as a real football league not just that other academic conference for those who couldn't get into the Ivies.

Army and Navy , even w/o votes are key players in this situation. I hope postitively but with all the FBS chaos they may not be as postive being more interested in where else they could fit in in the new FBS ( For Bucks Solely) world

[Bogus Megapardus]

Crusader is correct that the only decision from this meeting will be the merit aid format, if adopted from committee that will be brought back to each school for ratification. Final decision will be in Dec. I fluctuate back and forth as to whether any decision will ultimately be made. I still feel it is an absolute necessity for the PL to adopt merit aid, if we ever hope to exist as a real football league not just that other academic conference for those who couldn't get into the Ivies.

Army and Navy , even w/o votes are key players in this situation. I hope postitively but with all the FBS chaos they may not be as postive being more interested in where else they could fit in in the new FBS ( For Bucks Solely) world

Army and Navy, as full PL members, have votes in the process I believe. They have a vested interest in PL basketball/lacrosse/baseball/soccer. I doubt they want to mess with the format. So does American U. (though I still can't figure out what sports American actually plays).

Any proclamation regarding merit aid doubtless will await December but I think the die will be cast by tomorrow afternoon. We just won't know what the decision is until the end of the year.

The good folks on the Ivy board complain that they lose recruits to the PL every year, so it goes both ways in that regard. One thing I think might happen (as previously noted by Ken Z) is a re-formalization of the Ivy-Patriot football schedule along the lines of the format established when the PL was initiated. That will keep a check on the number of full rides and will keep the academic index in place.

[Pard94]

Put me in the "nothing will come from this meeting" camp. And given the current economic conditions maybe that isn't the worst thing. I thing the finacnical landscape favors the eggheads who say scholarships are bad. And if a gun is put to the league's head I can see them making the bad but easy, knee jerk choice of re-committing themselves against schollies. Maybe no news is good news.

[RichH2]

Bogus,


Army and Navy are full members? It is amusing to see IL complain about the few players we get over them. By a huge margin the IL wins head to head recruiting battles with PL. While not scientific reviewing my notes from this yr's recruiting, IL got at least 3 of 4 kids that listed an IL school and a PL school as offering

[DFW HOYA]

One thing I think might happen (as previously noted by Ken Z) is a re-formalization of the Ivy-Patriot football schedule along the lines of the format established when the PL was initiated. That will keep a check on the number of full rides and will keep the academic index in place.

A little frustration here, but can someone explain how keeping the AI makes Georgetown any more competitive for recruits than it is already not getting with kids right now? It doesn't.

The AI is the league's way of saying it's happy to accept the players the Ivy leaves behind.

[LUHawker]

Army and Navy, as full PL members, have votes in the process I believe. They have a vested interest in PL basketball/lacrosse/baseball/soccer. I doubt they want to mess with the format. So does American U. (though I still can't figure out what sports American actually plays).




I believe that when we were all discussing this ad nauseaum last year, there was some research done that said that only the football playing members got a vote - doesn't mean they won't have any input or influence, but not a formal vote, so Army, Navy and AU don't get a say. I can't recall how GTown and Fordham are treated with respect to voting as associate members for football.

[CrusaderBob]

I remember the same thing Hawker and the policy & procdure manual is available on the PL Web Site is someone is so inclined do the research again.

And though I'm pretty sure they do not have a vote in the FB scholarship decision, they can certainly hold sway over the decision by indicating a decision to explore other conference affiliation should the league not be able to expand. And as FBS schools, it would seem that there are definitely possibilities out there for Army & Navy.

And I know associate members get an equal vote in matter pertaining to the sport(s) in which they compete, so Fordham & Georgetown have the same say as as any of the other FB playing members.

[Franks Tanks]

I remember the same thing Hawker and the policy & procdure manual is available on the PL Web Site is someone is so inclined do the research again.

And though I'm pretty sure they do not have a vote in the FB scholarship decision, they can certainly hold sway over the decision by indicating a decision to explore other conference affiliation should the league not be able to expand. And as FBS schools, it would seem that there are definitely possibilities out there for Army & Navy.

And I know associate members get an equal vote in matter pertaining to the sport(s) in which they compete, so Fordham & Georgetown have the same say as as any of the other FB playing members.

Army got destroyed when they played in Conference USA a few years back-- I dont think they will repeat that mistake.

[CrusaderBob]

Army got destroyed when they played in Conference USA a few years back-- I dont think they will repeat that mistake.

I don't disagree on Army but Navy's in the equation too and they've been OK. If both or either decides to invest more into the FB program - perhaps as a means to attract potential students, they have options.

I do think the PL is the best spot for Army and Navy in all other sports sports, but it doesn't matter what I think, if either thinks there is a better situation for them than a status quo PL and either acts on it, I'm not sure the PL survives.

[RichH2]

A & N leaving would certainly hurt lacrosse and to a lesser extent Bball , the rest ?? PL would not fold up if they left but it would make us rather less relevant nationally. Status quo leaves PL very few options to maintain itself much less expand. Lets not forget PL pretty good last yr with 3 in the top 25 at the end of the season. Hard to put forward a valid argument that any change at all is necessary, but for Fordham leaving.

[carney2]

It's Wednesday the 9th, one day after the conclusion of the spring Patriot League meeting. I ran to get my morning newspaper and tore into it to find the sports page. Nothing. Late breaking story, said I, so I went to the internet. Nothing. C'mon you AGS pundits, you promised.

[ngineer]

If anything is "announced" it may be the addition of another school. As Carney said, and I too recall, Femovich stated or indicated a decision in the 'expansion' area in June. If such a decision is announced, that could well spell where the 'scholarship' decision will be headed. I also agree that no 'formal' decision on scholarships will occur this week. The most we can hope is a resolution supporting the concept to be taken to the respective BOTs in the fall.

[ngineer]

It's Wednesday the 9th, one day after the conclusion of the spring Patriot League meeting. I ran to get my morning newspaper and tore into it to find the sports page. Nothing. Late breaking story, said I, so I went to the internet. Nothing. C'mon you AGS pundits, you promised.

The deep dark hole known as Coopersburg lurks. I would suspect something gets released soon, but many times the 'timing' of such announcements are planned for particular reasons, calendars/schedules. Tick, tick, tick....

[DFW HOYA]

If anything is "announced" it may be the addition of another school. As Carney said, and I too recall, Femovich stated or indicated a decision in the 'expansion' area in June.

Are there really any serious candidates out there? NJIT doesn't count.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If anything is "announced" it may be the addition of another school. As Carney said, and I too recall, Femovich stated or indicated a decision in the 'expansion' area in June. If such a decision is announced, that could well spell where the 'scholarship' decision will be headed. I also agree that no 'formal' decision on scholarships will occur this week. The most we can hope is a resolution supporting the concept to be taken to the respective BOTs in the fall.

The thing is if some agreement on expansion were agreed it would be inevitable that it would be seen through the prism of football scholarships.

Announcement from PL Office

"Villanova, Richmond Join PL in 2014" --> read: scholarships are coming this December, if not sooner

"Marist, Loyola (MD) Join PL in 2014" --> read: scholarships are deader than doornails

"Baylor, Iowa State Join PL in 2014" --> read: start stockpiling canned goods and bottled water

More seriously, I have to believe all this conference shuffling talk, if anything, isn't a good think for expansion talk either. Like everyone else, they're probably waiting to see what the big money conferences do before doing anything.

[Model Citizen]

Are there really any serious candidates out there? NJIT doesn't count.


San Diego





Oh...serious candidates. Never mind.

[Go...gate]

San Diego


Oh...serious candidates. Never mind.

Why the hell not? It would be a nice road trip every other year.

[CrusaderBob]

It's Wednesday the 9th, one day after the conclusion of the spring Patriot League meeting. I ran to get my morning newspaper and tore into it to find the sports page. Nothing. Late breaking story, said I, so I went to the internet. Nothing. C'mon you AGS pundits, you promised.

Patience carney. I checked the Pl archives and this board's archives. From what I've pieced together, last year, the CoP met on Monday June 1 and Tuesday June 2. The announcement of Fordham scholarships and PL scheduling came Friday June 5.

In 2008, I have not yet figured out when the CoP met, but the announcement of the changes to the AI came on Friday June 13. Being creatures of habit, I bet the Presidents met on Monday June 9 & Tuesday June 10.

If anything is to be announced, expect it to come on Friday.

[Model Citizen]

Why the hell not? It would be a nice road trip every other year.

From our standpoint, it would make no difference. We already travel all over the place. We might be able to add a bit of athletic money to aid packages.

However, DFW HOYA is making me nervous about the AI. Would USD want to get itself into those kind of restrictions?

[Fordham]

...

"Baylor, Iowa State Join PL in 2014" --> read: start stockpiling canned goods and bottled water
...

xlolx

[Bogus Megapardus]

From our standpoint, it would make no difference. We already travel all over the place. We might be able to add a bit of athletic money to aid packages.

However, DFW HOYA is making me nervous about the AI. Would USD want to get itself into those kind of restrictions?

Georgetown does not have to comply with the AI in any sport except football. Should San Diego (or any other school) participate as a PL member in football only, the AI would apply only to that sport. I'm pretty confident that the AI is in the PL to stay, however. I can certainly see how playing in the PL and complying with the AI would not appeal to a lot of schools. I support it, but I know I'm in the minority in that regard.

[Go...gate]

Sometimes they sneak something on to the PL website, which many (such as moi) delete from our favorites come Spring. Maybe I'll check it out....

(Update) nothing on the PL website, save a rumor that Notre Dame has finally seen the error of its ways and has called Femovich seeking all-sports membership in our conference. ; )

[colorless raider]

I wager tha Nothing of note happened. Now on to December, no more excuses.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I wager tha Nothing of note happened. Now on to December, no more excuses.

If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it . . . .

[DFW HOYA]

Rhetorical question: what if the presidents do not act in December? Sure, they said they'd come to a resolution by December, but what happens if the resolution is that there is no consensus and to simply continue the discussion?

[Pard94]

Rhetorical question: what if the presidents do not act in December? Sure, they said they'd come to a resolution by December, but what happens if the resolution is that there is no consensus and to simply continue the discussion?

I would be shocked if that wasn't the outcome. To act requires balls. And I'm not talking about footballs.

[colorless raider]

A bunch of the better coaches in the league will be mailing resumes!

[carney2]

Rhetorical question: what if the presidents do not act in December? Sure, they said they'd come to a resolution by December, but what happens if the resolution is that there is no consensus and to simply continue the discussion?

I'm with 94. This is a very real possibility. For it to be otherwise there would have to be some leadership. Consider:

BUCKNELL - A new President feeling his way. Will not/cannot grab the reins.

COLGATE - An athletic department that has gone on record as being in favor, but another new kid on this block. See Bucknell.

FORDHAM - They who create the chaos are rarely in a position to lead others to a better place.

GEORGETOWN - Praying for this to go away.

HOLY CROSS - See Georgetown.

LAFAYETTE - See Georgetown and Holy Cross.

LEHIGH - Another athletic department that is apparently in favor, but a President who may not be on the same page.

If there's a leader in this bunch I don't see him/her.

[Go...gate]

Rhetorical question: what if the presidents do not act in December? Sure, they said they'd come to a resolution by December, but what happens if the resolution is that there is no consensus and to simply continue the discussion?

That could happen; according to Robert's Rules of Order, the issue could be tabled.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm with 94. This is a very real possibility. For it to be otherwise there would have to be some leadership. Consider:

BUCKNELL - A new President feeling his way. Will not/cannot grab the reins.

COLGATE - An athletic department that has gone on record as being in favor, but another new kid on this block. See Bucknell.

FORDHAM - They who create the chaos are rarely in a position to lead others to a better place.

GEORGETOWN - Praying for this to go away.

HOLY CROSS - See Georgetown.

LAFAYETTE - See Georgetown and Holy Cross.

LEHIGH - Another athletic department that is apparently in favor, but a President who may not be on the same page.

If there's a leader in this bunch I don't see him/her.

Three comments:

1) I think there are presidents and BOTs that are more on board for this than you think. Yes, there's uncertainty. But then again, there's no indication that at (say) Lehigh that our president wouldn't act on our AD's recommendation, either. The same certainly goes at Colgate, and probably at other PL schools, too.

2) Fordham doesn't have a dog in this hunt. They have made their decision. In a way, they have already *shown* leadership - they've made the plunge and said "Follow us if you dare". They don't need to really say anything.

3) Watch out for Bucknell's new president, a Stanford guy who appears to be quite pro-athletics (http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/05/spring-season-wrapup-bucknell.html). Oddly enough he might qualify as such a leader.

[ngineer]

Lehigh's President, Alice Gast, went on record a couple months ago supporting the scholarship model. She does not strike me as a 'leader' on this however, though Sterrett might if they allow the ADs to be involved as surrogates. I also agree on LFN's observaton of Bucknell's new prez. If Colgate, Lehigh, Bucknell go in that direction, with Fordham already on the road, then seems that LC, HC and GU either get sucked along or bail. I just don't have a 'gut feeling' that anything definitive will occur before December.

[DFW HOYA]

These football scholarships are getting more expensive all the time...

"Sequim High's Thomas Gallagher won a full-ride, $228,000 scholarship to Georgetown."

http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/article/20100609/news/306099986/sequim-graduates-awarded-21-million-in-scholarships

[RichH2]

Lets not forget that GU did not write the kid a check, they're just not charging him for playing for GU. An impressive loss of income tho.

[ngineer]

"Hello darkness my old friend, I've come to talk to you again..."



xbangxxbangxxbangxxbangxxbangxxbangxxbangxxbangxxb angx

[DFW HOYA]

But look at the bright side--it's not like half the league is looking to leave and join the CAA...

[Go...gate]

But look at the bright side--it's not like half the league is looking to leave and join the CAA...


Not yet, anyway.....

[Fordham]

...
FORDHAM - They who create the chaos are rarely in a position to lead others to a better place.


so the 2nd one to stick their necks out is the one showing leadership? xconfusedx



certainly will be interesting to see how all of this plays out.

[superman7515]

Okay, I'm clearly not a PL fan, but I have a theoretical question regarding Army/Navy. With the Mountain West Conference picking up Boise State (and depending on the situation with the Big 12 collpase also adding Kansas, Kansas State, Mizzou, [and Iowa State if they feel generous]), this could put the Mountain West Conference in a very very good position to be a BCS conference and take the place of the defunct Big 12. With Air Force then being in a BCS conference, and again this is all theoretical, and being the only service academy that would have a legit shot at making the BCS title game because of their conference affiliation, do you think Army and/or Navy would seek full membership in the Big East, the most logical BCS conference for their location?

[carney2]

Okay, I'm clearly not a PL fan, but I have a theoretical question regarding Army/Navy. With the Mountain West Conference picking up Boise State (and depending on the situation with the Big 12 collpase also adding Kansas, Kansas State, Mizzou, [and Iowa State if they feel generous]), this could put the Mountain West Conference in a very very good position to be a BCS conference and take the place of the defunct Big 12. With Air Force then being in a BCS conference, and again this is all theoretical, and being the only service academy that would have a legit shot at making the BCS title game because of their conference affiliation, do you think Army and/or Navy would seek full membership in the Big East, the most logical BCS conference for their location?

As LFN pointed out in this thread a few days ago, Army and Navy are, and should be, a concern to the Patriot League. This is a prime example that our little FCS world is not a protected observer of the current FBS round of musical chairs. We are potential collateral damage. And it wouldn't take something as obvious as Air Force being in a BCS eligible conference to get things moving. Both of the academies would have some trouble adapting most of their other sports to a higher level of competition and a wider geographic spread, but we all know that football is driving all of this.

[DFW HOYA]

With Air Force then being in a BCS conference, and again this is all theoretical, and being the only service academy that would have a legit shot at making the BCS title game because of their conference affiliation, do you think Army and/or Navy would seek full membership in the Big East, the most logical BCS conference for their location?

USMA and USNA are very much against joining the Big East. The academies see a national mission and national recruiting is better served as an independent thaqn playing in the same cities every year. Army's experience in C-USA (competitively and recruiting-wise) was a bitter lesson.

Whether they are happy in the PL is another question. Cleaarly, there are other options (the MAAC is a much more regional conference to West Point), and the academies participated in the Heptagonals (Ivy League track) for many years before joining the PL. Since sports at the academies outside football have a different mission and focus, whether they are in the PL, another conference, or as independents doesn't carry the same weight it does at other schools, I think their place in the PL is secure. Of course, given the PL's inability to find schools to expand, the loss of USMA and USNA would damage the conference as a whole.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Okay, I'm clearly not a PL fan, but I have a theoretical question regarding Army/Navy. With the Mountain West Conference picking up Boise State (and depending on the situation with the Big 12 collpase also adding Kansas, Kansas State, Mizzou, [and Iowa State if they feel generous]), this could put the Mountain West Conference in a very very good position to be a BCS conference and take the place of the defunct Big 12. With Air Force then being in a BCS conference, and again this is all theoretical, and being the only service academy that would have a legit shot at making the BCS title game because of their conference affiliation, do you think Army and/or Navy would seek full membership in the Big East, the most logical BCS conference for their location?

A good observation - however, USMA and USNA arguably have behind the eight-ball against Air Force for years simply due to their MVC membership, so if the MVC upgrades by itself I don't see that being an issue.

To me, the biggest factor to USMA and USNA possibly joining a conference is Notre Dame. They are the only three independents left, and for all practical purposes IMO they are joined at the hip. If Notre Dame joins a conference, who will USMA and USNA play? You know the first thing the Irish will drop is Navy off their schedule - if Texas and TAMU aren't a big enough rivalry to protect a relationship, certainly Irish/Navy isn't. The same arguments apply to Army and Navy as apply to the Irish; a need to protect some bowl cred, scheduling, exposure, money.

If things get too crazy, and Notre Dame is "forced" into a conference, I will officially become very, very worried. But as of right now the Irish seem steadfast in remaining independent. And that's the best situation for the Patriot League - the Irish, USMA and USNA remaining independent in football and in the Big East/PL in all other sports.


USMA and USNA are very much against joining the Big East. The academies see a national mission and national recruiting is better served as an independent thaqn playing in the same cities every year. Army's experience in C-USA (competitively and recruiting-wise) was a bitter lesson.

Whether they are happy in the PL is another question. Cleaarly, there are other options (the MAAC is a much more regional conference to West Point), and the academies participated in the Heptagonals (Ivy League track) for many years before joining the PL. Since sports at the academies outside football have a different mission and focus, whether they are in the PL, another conference, or as independents doesn't carry the same weight it does at other schools, I think their place in the PL is secure. Of course, given the PL's inability to find schools to expand, the loss of USMA and USNA would damage the conference as a whole.

Losing the USMA and USNA would be devastating, IMO, to the PL. They remain the league's only no-doubt-about-it nationwide institutions, and their presence gives things like Patriot League lacrosse and basketball a reason to be televised to casual observers. Lose them, and who's watching Lehigh play Bucknell and Colgate in those sports? (Aside from me, I mean.)

Again, I think they wish things the way they are right now: PL in all sports except football, where they can be independents and "recruit nationally". But being an FBS independent is certainly an endangered species these days, and may very well become extinct after the next round of realignment. That's why I'm following this so closely.

[ngineer]

Above posts by DFW and LFN are on point, imo. Army and Navy will be 'national' football players since that is what the Brass want. Therefore, they will do what they can to remain independent in football. Makes scheduling difficult at times, but it can be done. Army and Navy belong in the PL for all other sports. They are competitive but do not dominate. Indeed, Bucknell is the dominant school for all sports combined. Hmmm, maybe we can get the Coast Guard Academy to step up from D-III and join the PL??

[ngineer]

I emailed one of the local sports columnists to see if he had heard anything coming out of these meetings and his response was "negative". He did say he was going to follow up with the PL office this coming week, but as usual, they are pretty 'tight lipped' over in Center Valley. The fact that the League has not issued on its own press release by now does not lend one to believe anything of substance has occured.xsmhxxsmhx

[RichH2]

Or that some decisions were made but no announcement until school or schools concerned accept offers. On schollies, perhaps that will be our christmas present.

[ngineer]

Or that some decisions were made but no announcement until school or schools concerned accept offers. On schollies, perhaps that will be our christmas present.

..or a lump of coal.xeyebrowx

[carney2]

Or that some decisions were made but no announcement until school or schools concerned accept offers. On schollies, perhaps that will be our christmas present.

Rich, these bozos are doing everything they can to do nothing.

[Bogus Megapardus]

[/B]

..or a lump of coal.

. . . so you're saying it will be a new member from the coal region, are you? Now there's a rumor I can grab hold of and disseminate indiscriminately.

[Go...gate]

I still have a feeling that when the smoke clears, we will not have FB scholarships and a lot of decisions will have to be made by each institution.

[DFW HOYA]

I still have a feeling that when the smoke clears, we will not have FB scholarships and a lot of decisions will have to be made by each institution.

If that's the case (and I'm not sure if that will be the final decision), there won't be many decisions, but one: if your school wants to stay in the PL, it abides; if not, it gives notice.

The presidents really have two options: 1) get consensus from the full league members to hold the line on scholarships and wish Fordham well, or 2) offer the "to each his own" scholarship option and hope they haven't sown the seeds of the league's eventual demise. The competitive gap (60 scholarships overnight for some vs. 0-15 by others) would be extreme.

A third option (mandating scholarships at all schools) seems unlikely, inasmuch as the PL doesn't want to burn bridges with the Ivy and not all schools would choose to commit to it.

[ngineer]

. . . so you're saying it will be a new member from the coal region, are you? Now there's a rumor I can grab hold of and disseminate indiscriminately.

Well...that would leave us U of Scranton, currently without football; Wilkes College at D-III; although Duquesne is near the 'soft coal' belt, as well as Washington & Jefferson, Clarion, and good ol' Slippery Rock!

[ngineer]

If that's the case (and I'm not sure if that will be the final decision), there won't be many decisions, but one: if your school wants to stay in the PL, it abides; if not, it gives notice.

The presidents really have two options: 1) get consensus from the full league members to hold the line on scholarships and wish Fordham well, or 2) offer the "to each his own" scholarship option and hope they haven't sown the seeds of the league's eventual demise. The competitive gap (60 scholarships overnight for some vs. 0-15 by others) would be extreme.

A third option (mandating scholarships at all schools) seems unlikely, inasmuch as the PL doesn't want to burn bridges with the Ivy and not all schools would choose to commit to it.

I still think there is a chance at a 'gradual' implementation of scholarships over several years...but nothing will be confirmed until December as everyone has to get 'advice and consent' from their BOTs.

[Sader87]

This league sucks. There, I said it....again.

[Bogus Megapardus]

This league sucks. There, I said it....again.

I like the Patriot League. There, I said it . . . again.

[carney2]

This is now officially the Seinfeld thread. We have 79 posts about absolutely nothing.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If that's the case (and I'm not sure if that will be the final decision), there won't be many decisions, but one: if your school wants to stay in the PL, it abides; if not, it gives notice.

The presidents really have two options: 1) get consensus from the full league members to hold the line on scholarships and wish Fordham well, or 2) offer the "to each his own" scholarship option and hope they haven't sown the seeds of the league's eventual demise. The competitive gap (60 scholarships overnight for some vs. 0-15 by others) would be extreme.

A third option (mandating scholarships at all schools) seems unlikely, inasmuch as the PL doesn't want to burn bridges with the Ivy and not all schools would choose to commit to it.

You're right, but I think it's worth amending a little:

1) get consensus from the full league members to hold the line on scholarships, hope Marist and/or Loyola (MD) replace Fordham and wish Fordham well,

2) offer the "to each his own" scholarship option, give up on expansion for now, and maybe the forseeable future and hope they haven't sown the seeds of the league's eventual demise, or

3) mandating scholarships at all schools and praying that the CAA falls apart and Villanova and Richmond will somehow come-a-knocking.

THIS is why this isn't exactly an easy thing to make a decision on. Right now to me odds are on option 2) because it's the closest thing to not making any decision at all.

There is also the possibility that moving to football scholarships - with the existing AI - may not wreck interleague competitiveness as much as folks think it might. It's not at all a given that Fordham's move to scholarships will have them dominate the PL the way Holy Cross did in the infant days of the league. If that's the case, you'd have to think Georgetown would stick around, right?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This is now officially the Seinfeld thread. We have 79 posts about absolutely nothing.


Patriot League Council of Presidents Meeting


xlolx xcoolx

[Franks Tanks]

This league sucks. There, I said it....again.

Then join the MAAC. That will really raise the profile of Holy Cross basketball. xlolx

[crusader11]

Then join the MAAC. That will really raise the profile of Holy Cross basketball. xlolx

Ignore Sader87. He blows exponentially more hot wind over on Crossports than he does here.

[Franks Tanks]

Ignore Sader87. He blows exponentially more hot wind over on Crossports than he does here.

He's a bit bitter is he not?

[RichH2]

Much ado about ........ ????? I expect as the blackout from Center Valley continues this thread will die somewhere around 100 posts only to resurface again periodically until August when camps open when we can go back to talking football and the pending merger of the BCS with the NFL. Altho, I heard the stumbling block there is revenue sharing as BCS has lots more $$$xwhistlex

[Sader87]

He's a bit bitter is he not?

Very bitter.... as I sit in the now mostly empty Fitton Field stands to watch non-scholarship FCS football which is only a half-step above NESCAC football.

[Franks Tanks]

Very bitter.... as I sit in the now mostly empty Fitton Field stands to watch non-scholarship FCS football which is only a half-step above NESCAC football.

Please the blame squarely on yourselves and not the other members of the Patriot League.

The Patriot league is about 1o steps above NESCAC football and if you dont know that you know little about college football.

[Sader87]

It's not that much better...we (the PL) are much closer to the NESCAC teams in overall ability than we are to the BC's and UConn's of the college football world.

[Franks Tanks]

It's not that much better...we (the PL) are much closer to the NESCAC teams in overall ability than we are to the BC's and UConn's of the college football world.

Not necessarily. The avergae FCS team competes about as well with the big boys as D-III can compete with FCS.

The NESCAC has some good players, but they would get absolutly destroyed by a PL team. The Lafayette JV team typically scrimages the Muhelenberg JV team. The Mules are a solid D-III program that has won their league title several times in the last decade. They are at least as good as NESCAC teams. My freshman year the scrimmage was so one sided I felt bad for the Muhlenberg kids. We were absolutely destroying the D-line by running simple running plays. Putting kids on their back every play, killing their LB's etc. I thought our D was going to kill their poor QB. We played so vanilla and it wasnt even close. People like you and Bill Simmons have no idea how different PL football is vs. the NESCAC.

[RichH2]

So, you think we should be an ACC or Big East type conference. Given the size and academic requirements of all our schools, how can you seriously believe the PL could even approach that level. Moreover why would we want to? Where we fit between the BCS and NESCAC is really rather irrelevant. How we compete with FCS schools is the real issue and that is what needs to be addressed not tilting at windmills of the past.

[Pard94]

Very bitter.... as I sit in the now mostly empty Fitton Field stands to watch non-scholarship FCS football which is only a half-step above NESCAC football.


OK. I'll ask the obvious question...why in the hell do you bother attending and/or following the games? Just move on man. The glory days of HC being a national powerhouse in any sport are gone forever. They're not coming back. Accept it and learn to appreciate what you have (could be a whole lot worse see Hoftra, Northeastern, etc.) or move on and take up needlepoint or something. Jeez.

[carney2]

It's not at all a given that Fordham's move to scholarships will have them dominate the PL the way Holy Cross did in the infant days of the league.

Good Point. There is no early indication that the Rams have bolted out of the gate into the world of scholarship football. In fact, and I hope not for their sake, there is no indication that they have not booked through the same travel agent that took their basketball program on a similar excursion to greater glory some 20 years ago. It's way too early here, but I honestly expected to see better after a year in play-for-pay land.

[Sader87]

Not necessarily. The avergae FCS team competes about as well with the big boys as D-III can compete with FCS.

The NESCAC has some good players, but they would get absolutly destroyed by a PL team. The Lafayette JV team typically scrimages the Muhelenberg JV team. The Mules are a solid D-III program that has won their league title several times in the last decade. They are at least as good as NESCAC teams. My freshman year the scrimmage was so one sided I felt bad for the Muhlenberg kids. We were absolutely destroying the D-line by running simple running plays. Putting kids on their back every play, killing their LB's etc. I thought our D was going to kill their poor QB. We played so vanilla and it wasnt even close. People like you and Bill Simmons have no idea how different PL football is vs. the NESCAC.

I have seen Williams, Tufts, Trinity and Amherst play in person within the last couple of years and I really don't see a huge difference between them and PL play. The PL is better no doubt, but it's not the wide divide you make it out to be.

As for why I included BC and UConn, they could potentially be schools we could play on occasion if we were a scholarship program, not that I think we should be in the ACC or BE.

[carney2]

I have seen Williams, Tufts, Trinity and Amherst play in person within the last couple of years and I really don't see a huge difference between them and PL play.

I have seen two, but not all four, of these play. I'll give you any of the four and 2 TDs against Georgetown. The odds get A LOT longer against anyone else in the Patriot League. BIG difference in the lines - and speed.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As for why I included BC and UConn, they could potentially be schools we could play on occasion if we were a scholarship program, not that I think we should be in the ACC or BE.

This is where the ignorance really shows. So in your world Holy Cross competes in FBS football but not in the Big East or ACC.

So, praytell, where would they play?

The MAC, with like institutions like... Eastern Michigan and Temple? Holy Cross' president would choke trying to make that sell. And if you think replacing Mountain Hawks with Chippewas are going to pump life into Holy Cross football... don't make me laugh.

The Sun Belt? Conference USA? Don't laugh; those are the two closest conferences to Holy Cross after that. If you think those are serious options, you need some serious help. Academically, the Cross would be slumming with such "like-minded institutions" as Louisiana-Monroe or Middle Tennessee State. Good luck with those.

Compete as an FBS independent? Brother, please. Notre Dame is hanging onto its independence by a thread - independents are an endangered species. And you think HC might have a chance at a bowl as an indy without the name recognition of Notre Dame, the USMA or USNA?

At least apply some brainpower before posting next time.

[Sader87]

This is where the ignorance really shows. So in your world Holy Cross competes in FBS football but not in the Big East or ACC.

So, praytell, where would they play?

The MAC, with like institutions like... Eastern Michigan and Temple? Holy Cross' president would choke trying to make that sell. And if you think replacing Mountain Hawks with Chippewas are going to pump life into Holy Cross football... don't make me laugh.

The Sun Belt? Conference USA? Don't laugh; those are the two closest conferences to Holy Cross after that. If you think those are serious options, you need some serious help. Academically, the Cross would be slumming with such "like-minded institutions" as Louisiana-Monroe or Middle Tennessee State. Good luck with those.

Compete as an FBS independent? Brother, please. Notre Dame is hanging onto its independence by a thread - independents are an endangered species. And you think HC might have a chance at a bowl as an indy without the name recognition of Notre Dame, the USMA or USNA?

At least apply some brainpower before posting next time.

I never said HC should be FBS...just that with scholarships they could play BC, UConn, Army etc.....hell, UMass is playing at Michigan this year. The PL is doomed to indifference from most (and so-so football at best) until it gives out football scholarships.

[DFW HOYA]

I never said HC should be FBS...just that with scholarships they could play BC, UConn, Army etc.....hell, UMass is playing at Michigan this year. The PL is doomed to indifference from most (and so-so football at best) until it gives out football scholarships.

Indifference is not always solved by adding scholarships. Ask the NEC.

[ngineer]

Do you think the Presidents wear hoods and sit in dimly lit Packer Hall dining room with candles and a gregorian chant in the background when they meet?
Carolyn Femovitch stirring the cauldron on the side? "BTW, President Weiss," says President A.Gast, "have you read any good entrails lately?"xrotatehxxrotatehx

[Bogus Megapardus]

Do you think the Presidents wear hoods and sit in dimly lit Packer Hall dining room with candles and a Gregorian chant in the background when they meet?

As a matter of fact, I do think that. I'd have difficulty conjuring a vision otherwise.

[DFW HOYA]

Do you think the Presidents wear hoods and sit in dimly lit Packer Hall dining room with candles and a gregorian chant in the background when they meet?

With apologies to The Simpsons...

"Who controls the British crown?
Who keeps the metric system down?
We do! We do!
Who leaves Atlantis off the maps?
Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do! We do!
Who holds back the electric car?
Who makes Steve Gutenberg a star?
We do! We do!
Who robs cave fish of their sight?
Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do! We do!"

[WestCoastAggie]

http://blog.usaseopros.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/homer-stonecutter-pulpit.jpg

[crusader11]

I have seen Williams, Tufts, Trinity and Amherst play in person within the last couple of years and I really don't see a huge difference between them and PL play. The PL is better no doubt, but it's not the wide divide you make it out to be.


I have had friends who didn't even get that much time on my high school team and they are seeing the field at schools such as Middlebury and Hamilton. If you truly followed Holy Cross football and appreciated the level of play you would realize HC and any other PL team would beat a NESCAC school by 50.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

So, praytell, where would they play?

The MAC, with like institutions like... Eastern Michigan and Temple? Holy Cross' president would choke trying to make that sell. And if you think replacing Mountain Hawks with Chippewas are going to pump life into Holy Cross football... don't make me laugh.


Of all the schools in the MAC you had to go with Temple? Fellow Temple alums don't like the association with the MAC schools for the most part either. Outside of Miami(OH), Ohio U. and Buffalo the directional schools are academic misfits for the most part.

This is why Temple is quite happy being in the A10 for basketball and the rest of our sports programs. The A10 conference as a whole is an outstanding academic conference with the likes of Richmond, George Washington, Fordham, Dayton, St. Louis and the major state schools Umass, URI, Temple and Charlotte. You honestly don't believe HC fans wouldn't jump at the chance to join the A10?

The MAC offered Temple a spot in their conference to help revive our program after is was almost disbanded. Hopefully our stay does not last too long. Most feel we have 2 or 3 years left before the conference asks us to become an all sport member or get out. The alums are completely against that option which will make for an interesting situation. The hope is we can join an all sports league with some of the Big East teams in the future. A lot depends on how much schuffling there is with the ongoing realignment

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Of all the schools in the MAC you had to go with Temple? Fellow Temple alums don't like the association with the MAC schools for the most part either. Outside of Miami(OH), Ohio U. and Buffalo the directional schools are academic misfits for the most part.

Point well taken. Temple is much better academically than the rest of the MAC.

[DFW HOYA]

Quick question, since someone brought the Crusaders up: if Temple is one of the four Big East additions under the proposed "12/20" scenario (12 I-A schools for a conference championship game, 20 schools overall in four divisions), is Holy Cross an interested candidate for a vacancy in the A-10?

[ngineer]

As a matter of fact, I do think that. I'd have difficulty conjuring a vision otherwise.

Yes, I have had this vision, hence the post. We need to find some 'eye of newt'...and no, this is not a political post.;)

[carney2]

The NCAA requires that all varsity sports for a given institution be in the same division. Does anyone know if there has ever been any discussion of allowing non-revenue sports to compete at a lower level. In D-1, be it BCS or FBS, it is quite an expense and quite an undertaking to schlep a tennis, swimming or field hockey team across hundreds of miles and thru multiple states for a competition. Why not allow the revenue sports (defined, perhaps, differently from institution to institution) to perform at one level and "minor sports" at another. And, really, aren't there already exceptions? How about Johns Hopkins who participates at D-1 in lacrosse, but at D-3 in everything else?

[carney2]

Quick question, since someone brought the Crusaders up: if Temple is one of the four Big East additions under the proposed "12/20" scenario (12 I-A schools for a conference championship game, 20 schools overall in four divisions), is Holy Cross an interested candidate for a vacancy in the A-10?

"Sign us up!" says sader87. "We can follow Fordham hoops down that trail of glory."

[RichH2]

Carney, the issue of non revenue sport exceptions has been raised a number of times and never made it past committee with the NCAA

[DFW HOYA]

The NCAA requires that all varsity sports for a given institution be in the same division. Does anyone know if there has ever been any discussion of allowing non-revenue sports to compete at a lower level... And, really, aren't there already exceptions? How about Johns Hopkins who participates at D-1 in lacrosse, but at D-3 in everything else?

Division III no longer allows non-DIII teams playing in its ranks nor DIII schools from playing up, but agreed to a waiver for Hopkins and a few of its closest friends (Hobart lacrosse, RPI hockey, etc.). If these schools ever move down to DIII in these sports that cannot move up again.

http://www.jhu.edu/news/univ04/jan04/ncaavote.html

[Franks Tanks]

The NCAA requires that all varsity sports for a given institution be in the same division. Does anyone know if there has ever been any discussion of allowing non-revenue sports to compete at a lower level. In D-1, be it BCS or FBS, it is quite an expense and quite an undertaking to schlep a tennis, swimming or field hockey team across hundreds of miles and thru multiple states for a competition. Why not allow the revenue sports (defined, perhaps, differently from institution to institution) to perform at one level and "minor sports" at another. And, really, aren't there already exceptions? How about Johns Hopkins who participates at D-1 in lacrosse, but at D-3 in everything else?

Well D-I basketball is the kicker. The NCAA doesnt want a school to run a terrible bare bones athletic department, and also play D-I basketball and potentially share in the tourney money.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Division III no longer allows non-DIII teams playing in its ranks nor DIII schools from playing up, but agreed to a waiver for Hopkins and a few of its closest friends (Hobart lacrosse, RPI hockey, etc.). If these schools ever move down to DIII in these sports that cannot move up again.

http://www.jhu.edu/news/univ04/jan04/ncaavote.html

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe that Hobart lacrosse plays in DI without scholarships. Hobart did not move to DI until 1995 so it cannot be grandfathered like Hopkins. It's the Blue Jays that are the thorn in everyone's side - a huge institution with a multi-billion dollar endowment that gets away with full scholarship DI lacrosse yet plays football in the Centennial Conference against a host of indistinguishable little LACs like Juniata and Ursinus. No one can tell me with a straight face that Hopkins' 44 national championships in men's lacrosse does not give it an unfair advantage in its DIII sports.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe that Hobart lacrosse plays in DI without scholarships. Hobart did not move to DI until 1995 so it cannot be grandfathered like Hopkins. It's the Blue Jays that are the thorn in everyone's side - a huge institution with a multi-billion dollar endowment that gets away with full scholarship DI lacrosse yet plays football in the Centennial Conference against a host of indistinguishable little LACs like Juniata and Ursinus. No one can tell me with a straight face that Hopkins' 44 national championships in men's lacrosse does not give it an unfair advantage in its DIII sports.

Or its athletics facilities, which was the dealbreaker for Dayton continuing to compete at D-III for football. All Dayton people needed to do for recruiting was to get their football recruits into a basketball game - and their strength & conditioning (and presumably academic support programs) that D-III programs could only dream about.

The Dayton rule won't be overturned anytime soon. It gives a competitive advantage over other schools. As a great example, take Lafayette. You can't tell me if they chose to demote lacrosse to a D-III sport that they wouldn't dominate that level due to their "death star" athletic facility.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe that Hobart lacrosse plays in DI without scholarships. Hobart did not move to DI until 1995 so it cannot be grandfathered like Hopkins. It's the Blue Jays that are the thorn in everyone's side - a huge institution with a multi-billion dollar endowment that gets away with full scholarship DI lacrosse yet plays football in the Centennial Conference against a host of indistinguishable little LACs like Juniata and Ursinus. No one can tell me with a straight face that Hopkins' 44 national championships in men's lacrosse does not give it an unfair advantage in its DIII sports.

IIRC, the Middlebury led move to block D-III's from playing up happened after 1995. Your last sentence is exactly why the D-III's were against playing up, an unfair advantage! (And see LFN's post about the "Dayton Rule".) They were just as unhappy about Union, RPI, St. Lawrence, Clarkson and now RIT playing D-I ice hockey.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Well D-I basketball is the kicker. The NCAA doesnt want a school to run a terrible bare bones athletic department, and also play D-I basketball and potentially share in the tourney money.

And that's the "problem" from the D-I point of view!

[Franks Tanks]

And that's the "problem"

from the D-I point of view!

True-- without these rules you can see scenarios where many schools play one or two revenue sports in D-I, specifically basketball, and drop sports like swimming and field hockey to D-III in a mass exodus. Even big schools may be tempted to move Tennis or Track to D-III, while even the smallest school may think they can pull off D-I mens basketball.

[ngineer]

The NCAA requires that all varsity sports for a given institution be in the same division. Does anyone know if there has ever been any discussion of allowing non-revenue sports to compete at a lower level. In D-1, be it BCS or FBS, it is quite an expense and quite an undertaking to schlep a tennis, swimming or field hockey team across hundreds of miles and thru multiple states for a competition. Why not allow the revenue sports (defined, perhaps, differently from institution to institution) to perform at one level and "minor sports" at another. And, really, aren't there already exceptions? How about Johns Hopkins who participates at D-1 in lacrosse, but at D-3 in everything else?

I seem to recall that JHU has been 'grandfathered' on that requirement. Same for one or two other schools that have a similar history..may have been a couple schools who are D-I in soccer but D-III in others.

I remember at one time the NCAA required a miniumum of four D-I sports. When I was a U of Detroit for grad school, they had three other "D-I sports": Cross-Country, Fencing and Baseball in order for their Basketball team to be D-I...then coached by "Dickie V"xrolleyesx

Having read a few of the later posts, I agree with the Hobart and RPI exceptions..what I was thinking of.

[TheValleyRaider]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe that Hobart lacrosse plays in DI without scholarships. Hobart did not move to DI until 1995 so it cannot be grandfathered like Hopkins.

If I'm not mistaken, the scholarship restriction on D-III playups is actually quite new (2004-05-ish). Prior to that, any school playing up could award scholarships in accordance with D-I and conference rules. There was a big fight over a grandfather clause that would allow playups like Colorado College, RPI, Union, Clarkson and St. Lawrence to maintain scholarships in hockey (as well as other programs like JH Lax). The grandfather glause was eventually passed, but recent playups like RIT can't award scholarships IIRC

[Go...gate]

[QUOTE=Lehigh Football Nation;1525678]You're right, but I think it's worth amending a little:

1) get consensus from the full league members to hold the line on scholarships, hope Marist and/or Loyola (MD) replace Fordham and wish Fordham well,

......

I missed this post a few pages back and it offers food for thought.

While this is not the ideal option, one positive thing it would do is give us stronger numbers (10 BB and 8 FB - provided everyone still wants to stay). The recent issues with the larger FBS conferences are a cautionary tale. We certainly will be in a precarious position if Fordham leaves and we will be finished if Holy Cross does along with them.

You have to give credit where credit is due in terms of academics. Both of these schools have continued to raise their profile in this regard.

[bison137]

Quick question, since someone brought the Crusaders up: if Temple is one of the four Big East additions under the proposed "12/20" scenario (12 I-A schools for a conference championship game, 20 schools overall in four divisions), is Holy Cross an interested candidate for a vacancy in the A-10?


There would have to be a lot more than one vacancy for HC to be a candidate. To begin with, the A-10 likely wouldn't mind getting smaller anyway. No real reason to have 14 schools in a basketball league. Secondly if they did want to add a school, Siena and a few others would be more likely candidates.

Their only real chance would be for the Big East to split up and have the better A-10 schools (Xavier, Dayton, St. Louis, etc) join a Big East basketball league. Were that to happen, the A-10 would be a much weaker league and would need to add a few schools.

I don't see the Big East going to the 12/20 scenario anyway. Revenue for a Big East football championship game would only be a fraction of what it is for the SEC or Big 12 (or what the Big 10 will get). Do they really want to split all of the revenue from all sports with four more schools? Temple's best chance to get into the Big East is if a number of their football playing schools get picked off by other leagues. I think they are behind Memphis and UCF for sure and likely East Carolina as potential candidates.

Looking at it from the other perspective, would the HC administration want HC in a weaker academic league that would likely increase overall athletic costs? Particularly if their invitation came about due to the defections of the stronger A-10 members.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

There would have to be a lot more than one vacancy for HC to be a candidate. To begin with, the A-10 likely wouldn't mind getting smaller anyway. No real reason to have 14 schools in a basketball league. Secondly if they did want to add a school, Siena and a few others would be more likely candidates.

Their only real chance would be for the Big East to split up and have the better A-10 schools (Xavier, Dayton, St. Louis, etc) join a Big East basketball league. Were that to happen, the A-10 would be a much weaker league and would need to add a few schools.

I don't see the Big East going to the 12/20 scenario anyway. Revenue for a Big East football championship game would only be a fraction of what it is for the SEC or Big 12 (or what the Big 10 will get). Do they really want to split all of the revenue from all sports with four more schools? Temple's best chance to get into the Big East is if a number of their football playing schools get picked off by other leagues. I think they are behind Memphis and UCF for sure and likely East Carolina as potential candidates.

Looking at it from the other perspective, would the HC administration want HC in a weaker academic league that would likely increase overall athletic costs? Particularly if their invitation came about due to the defections of the stronger A-10 members.

The one thing that the last few weeks proved was how little basketball matters. That hurts because of Temple's strong hoops tradition. Most alums felt bball would be our selling point which obviously isn't the case.

Temple really needs to keep pushing forward with football so we can have a viable product to sell to the Big East or ACC. Interest in football at TU is increasing and Golden has stepped up recruiting which is what is needed to make us an attractive option. If Coach sticks around to finish what he started i believe we will have the prerequisites needed to join the BCS ranks in all sports.

As i said earlier, something has to happen because Temple will not join the MAC as an all sports member. Most figure the MAC will give TU another year or two before our hand is forced.

I also believe there will be deflections from the A10 sooner rather than later. Majerus has said he wants the Billikens out of the A10 and Xavier and Dayton have started to grow restless of the so called "Eastern Bias" that exists within the league. It seems quite possible that there will be another mid western bball conference formed with a core group of Marquette, DePaul, Xavier, St. Louis, Creighton, Dayton, Memphis perhaps Butler and Drake as well.

I believe something will ultimately come out of the CAA as well.

Realignment is not finished.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There would have to be a lot more than one vacancy for HC to be a candidate. To begin with, the A-10 likely wouldn't mind getting smaller anyway. No real reason to have 14 schools in a basketball league. Secondly if they did want to add a school, Siena and a few others would be more likely candidates.

Their only real chance would be for the Big East to split up and have the better A-10 schools (Xavier, Dayton, St. Louis, etc) join a Big East basketball league. Were that to happen, the A-10 would be a much weaker league and would need to add a few schools.

I don't see the Big East going to the 12/20 scenario anyway. Revenue for a Big East football championship game would only be a fraction of what it is for the SEC or Big 12 (or what the Big 10 will get). Do they really want to split all of the revenue from all sports with four more schools? Temple's best chance to get into the Big East is if a number of their football playing schools get picked off by other leagues. I think they are behind Memphis and UCF for sure and likely East Carolina as potential candidates.

Looking at it from the other perspective, would the HC administration want HC in a weaker academic league that would likely increase overall athletic costs? Particularly if their invitation came about due to the defections of the stronger A-10 members.

IMO, the Big East may not have any choice in regards to splitting. There has been tension for years between the football-playing schools (Cincy, USF) and the non-football playing schools (Providence, St. John's) with a variety of issues, not least revenue sharing.

Personally, I think the only way a Big East split would work is to put the FBS schools in one "division" and the FCS/non-FB/Notre Dame in the other "division", and creating two championships and two autobids - basically, two basketball conferences with a tight scheduling arrangement. FB teams then won't need to share bowl revenue, rivalries are more or less preserved, and there are more postseason chances for everyone. It's way better than a 20-team conference.

If this happens, the Big East would need to expand with two FBS schools (Temple, Memphis, or ECU) and two non-FBS schools (Dayton, Xavier, St. Louis), with respective dominoes in the MAC, C-USA or A-10.

But would HC be that school that might jump to the A-10? I don't think so. There are too many other attractive candidates to them like George Mason, Old Dominion, even Hofstra. What does Worcester really bring to the party?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The one thing that the last few weeks proved was how little basketball matters. That hurts because of Temple's strong hoops tradition. Most alums felt bball would be our selling point which obviously isn't the case.

Temple really needs to keep pushing forward with football so we can have a viable product to sell to the Big East or ACC. Interest in football at TU is increasing and Golden has stepped up recruiting which is what is needed to make us an attractive option. If Coach sticks around to finish what he started i believe we will have the prerequisites needed to join the BCS ranks in all sports.

As i said earlier, something has to happen because Temple will not join the MAC as an all sports member. Most figure the MAC will give TU another year or two before our hand is forced.

I also believe there will be deflections from the A10 sooner rather than later. Majerus has said he wants the Billikens out of the A10 and Xavier and Dayton have started to grow restless of the so called "Eastern Bias" that exists within the league. It seems quite possible that there will be another mid western bball conference formed with a core group of Marquette, DePaul, Xavier, St. Louis, Creighton, Dayton, Memphis perhaps Butler and Drake as well.

I believe something will ultimately come out of the CAA as well.

Realignment is not finished.

I value your thoughts on Temple, which is partially why I tend to put a lot more credence as Temple as a Big East expansion candidate than a lot of people. Folks seem to think that the Big East cast Temple permanently out of the conference, but they underestimate how much different things are now at Temple than in those bad old days.

With Temple you also get the Linc and Philadelphia. Yes, repeat after me, "Philly is a pro sports town", but Philly loves their Big Five and Temple/Nova would become even bigger than it already is.

Finally I think the argument "how little basketball matters" really doesn't hold water in the end. When the prospect of Kansas being stranded seemed to be a real possibility, no fewer than three conferences were banging on Kansas' door to get them in their conference (the Mountain West, Big East and Pac-Ten). Heck, they were willing to allow Iowa State in if it meant getting Kansas! If basketball suddenly had no value, this scenario would have not played itself out.

The money men seem to think that there is not as much potential for money growth in basketball since the product is reaching saturation point. The big untapped money vein, in their mind, is football. But that doesn't mean that there's suddenly no money in basketball. Far from it.

[carney2]

I believe that this Seinfeld thread (about absolutely nothing) has now run longer than the Seinfeld show.

[colorless raider]

This is a PL thread, so I will not go into great detail, but Georgetown literally cannot afford to be in a league with Xavier, Dayton, etc. I will take a 20 team configuration over eight CYO teams any day of the week.

As to football, here's hoping it can afford to stay in the PL.

DFW: What did Coach Kelly say in his radio interview? In adding two new coaches are they additional or replacements? Anything optimistic?

[DFW HOYA]

DFW: What did Coach Kelly say in his radio interview? In adding two new coaches are they additional or replacements? Anything optimistic?

In general:

-- He is adding two part time coaches, may be replacements. Discussed some sort of meeting with the seniors after the season.
--A senior walk on from the lacrosse team is being asked to compete for kicker. (GU recruited 5 freshmen to kick, so adding a sixth sounds like this position is not solid.)
--Talked a little about two WR transfers from Miami (OH) and FAU, though both were redshirts at these schools.
--Noted that it's difficult to recruit DC because kids want to go to school somewhere else. Noted that if the best player in the nation wanted to play at Georgetown and didn't have the right grades, they [the staff] couldn't even look at him.
--Non-committal on the MSF, people needed to "be patient". (To be fair, Kelly has never made the MSF his priority, and was probably told as much when he was hired.)

[colorless raider]

Well nothing negative and some possible good news with the transfers. I enjoyed your recent article on Hoya saxa re merit aid.

[Bogus Megapardus]

As with most things related to college sports, the NCAA itself was created by the members of the Ivy League and the Patriot League. The idea was to prevent injuries and to standardize rules. When athletic scholarships first surfaced as a way for new participants to try to compete with the likes of Harvard, Army, Lafayette and Fordham, the expanding number of colleges participating in football agreed to standardized formulae in order to thwart the emergence of professional athletes in the college ranks.

The influence of dollars took hold, and by the late 40s the Big Ten reigned sovereign over the NCAA albeit with protections in place to preserve the integrity of the game, as played by the founders. That integrity has disappeared as the ranks of the mega-universities have flourished. The innovators of college athletics now are ridiculed by enthusiasts of the state-supported behemoths and by the entrenched media, and they are left to justify their very existence.

Can it really be called "college football" any longer? ESPN thinks not - perusal of its homepage seems to identify only BCS members as its participants. References to "college football" no longer include places like Colgate, Butler and Davidson. Maybe it really is time to engender separation. Let the big dogs go semi-pro and let the rest of us just play the game simply because we want to. But be careful what you wish for.

Scholarships or not, I support the Patriot League and its ideals. Say what you will.

[ngineer]

As with most things related to college sports, the NCAA itself was created by the members of the Ivy League and the Patriot League. The idea was to prevent injuries and to standardize rules. When athletic scholarships first surfaced as a way for new participants to try to compete with the likes of Harvard, Army, Lafayette and Fordham, the expanding number of colleges participating in football agreed to standardized formulae in order to thwart the emergence of professional athletes in the college ranks.

The influence of dollars took hold, and by the late 40s the Big Ten reigned sovereign over the NCAA albeit with protections in place to preserve the integrity of the game, as played by the founders. That integrity has disappeared as the ranks of the mega-universities has flourished. The innovators of college athletics now are ridiculed by enthusiasts of the state-supported behemoths and by the entrenched media, and they are left to justify their very existence.

Can it really be called "college football" any longer? ESPN thinks not - perusal of its homepage seems to identify only BCS members as its participants. References to "college football" no longer include places like Colgate, Butler and Davidson. Maybe it really is time to engender separation. Let the big dogs go semi-pro and let the rest of us just play the game simply because we want to. But be careful what you wish for.

Scholarships or not, I support the Patriot League and its ideals. Say what you will.

****! I hate to agree with you, again... Well, stated.xthumbsupx

[Go...gate]

As with most things related to college sports, the NCAA itself was created by the members of the Ivy League and the Patriot League. The idea was to prevent injuries and to standardize rules. When athletic scholarships first surfaced as a way for new participants to try to compete with the likes of Harvard, Army, Lafayette and Fordham, the expanding number of colleges participating in football agreed to standardized formulae in order to thwart the emergence of professional athletes in the college ranks.

The influence of dollars took hold, and by the late 40s the Big Ten reigned sovereign over the NCAA albeit with protections in place to preserve the integrity of the game, as played by the founders. That integrity has disappeared as the ranks of the mega-universities have flourished. The innovators of college athletics now are ridiculed by enthusiasts of the state-supported behemoths and by the entrenched media, and they are left to justify their very existence.

Can it really be called "college football" any longer? ESPN thinks not - perusal of its homepage seems to identify only BCS members as its participants. References to "college football" no longer include places like Colgate, Butler and Davidson. Maybe it really is time to engender separation. Let the big dogs go semi-pro and let the rest of us just play the game simply because we want to. But be careful what you wish for.

Scholarships or not, I support the Patriot League and its ideals. Say what you will.

I believe Bogus has made an excellent point, though I am for scholarships.

[RichH2]

I wish I was as articulate as the Bogus. He has as usual aptly described the current $$ chase by BCS. I am afraid this will be an annual event. Next yr, Texas, New mexico, Syracuse or some other pro team will sell itself to some conference.

I love the PL but I still want schollies. If not, well will be disappointed as our ability to compete outside the PL will diminish but league competition against our longtime foes always good

[OL FU]

As with most things related to college sports, the NCAA itself was created by the members of the Ivy League and the Patriot League. The idea was to prevent injuries and to standardize rules. When athletic scholarships first surfaced as a way for new participants to try to compete with the likes of Harvard, Army, Lafayette and Fordham, the expanding number of colleges participating in football agreed to standardized formulae in order to thwart the emergence of professional athletes in the college ranks.

The influence of dollars took hold, and by the late 40s the Big Ten reigned sovereign over the NCAA albeit with protections in place to preserve the integrity of the game, as played by the founders. That integrity has disappeared as the ranks of the mega-universities have flourished. The innovators of college athletics now are ridiculed by enthusiasts of the state-supported behemoths and by the entrenched media, and they are left to justify their very existence.

Can it really be called "college football" any longer? ESPN thinks not - perusal of its homepage seems to identify only BCS members as its participants. References to "college football" no longer include places like Colgate, Butler and Davidson. Maybe it really is time to engender separation. Let the big dogs go semi-pro and let the rest of us just play the game simply because we want to. But be careful what you wish for.

Scholarships or not, I support the Patriot League and its ideals. Say what you will.


Major reps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do support scholarships (not speaking just of the PL here, that is the choice of your schools) because I witness almost every saturday during the fall that a school can grant athletic scholarships, maintain its academic integrity and promote "College football". xthumbsupx

[Sader87]

If you believe the Ivies (and other schools) were as "pure as the driven snow" vis a vis scholarships, payments to players and other sorts of illegal activities with regards to their football programs etc. through the 1920's, 30's and 40's, you are very much deluded.

I'm not advocating a return to such nefarious practices but to believe that the PL and IL are (and were) these bastions of integrity whereby football scholarships will sully their reputations is very sanctimonious imo.

[Franks Tanks]

If you believe the Ivies (and other schools) were as "pure as the driven snow" vis a vis scholarships, payments to players and other sorts of illegal activities with regards to their football programs etc. through the 1920's, 30's and 40's, you are very much deluded.

I'm not advocating a return to such nefarious practices but to believe that the PL and IL are (and were) these bastions of integrity whereby football scholarships will sully their reputations is very sanctimonious imo.

Certainly not. In 1896 Lafayette was infamous for the "Yost Affair". Fielding Yost, yes that Fielding Yost who would coach Michigan, was a player for West Virginia. Lafayette beat West Virginia and Yost decided to enroll at Lafayette mid-season and help us beat national power Penn for the mythical National Championship.

"In October 1896, after his team lost three times to Lafayette in home games played on three different fields over the course of three days,[2][3] Yost became a remarkable personification of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em." He transferred in mid-season to join Coach Parke H. Davis' national championship team at Lafayette. Just a week after playing against Davis in West Virginia, Yost was playing for Davis in Lafayette's historic 6–4 win over the Quakers.[3]

The fortuitous timing of Yost's appearance on the Lafayette roster did not go unnoticed by Penn officials. They called it "the Yost affair." The Philadelphia Ledger quoted Yost as saying that he came to Lafayette only to play football. The fact that Yost appeared in a Lafayette uniform only once... in the Penn game[4]... and that he returned to West Virginia within two weeks of the contest... did not help appearances. He assured all concerned that he would return to Lafayette for at least three years of study.[5] But 1897 found him no longer a student or a player, but a coach."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fielding_Yost

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As with most things related to college sports, the NCAA itself was created by the members of the Ivy League and the Patriot League. The idea was to prevent injuries and to standardize rules. When athletic scholarships first surfaced as a way for new participants to try to compete with the likes of Harvard, Army, Lafayette and Fordham, the expanding number of colleges participating in football agreed to standardized formulae in order to thwart the emergence of professional athletes in the college ranks.

The influence of dollars took hold, and by the late 40s the Big Ten reigned sovereign over the NCAA albeit with protections in place to preserve the integrity of the game, as played by the founders. That integrity has disappeared as the ranks of the mega-universities have flourished. The innovators of college athletics now are ridiculed by enthusiasts of the state-supported behemoths and by the entrenched media, and they are left to justify their very existence.

Can it really be called "college football" any longer? ESPN thinks not - perusal of its homepage seems to identify only BCS members as its participants. References to "college football" no longer include places like Colgate, Butler and Davidson. Maybe it really is time to engender separation. Let the big dogs go semi-pro and let the rest of us just play the game simply because we want to. But be careful what you wish for.

Scholarships or not, I support the Patriot League and its ideals. Say what you will.

The mess which is college football right now was not, as Bogus is implying, created overnight. But the sport itself - the greatest sport in the world - is not at fault per se. It's the decentralized nature of the media contracts, a problem which seems like there is no way to solve except through congressional legislation.

Fox likes broadcasting college football. It makes them boatloads of money. So does ESPN. And NBC. And CBS.

Their contracts are based on conferences, and (sometimes) individual teams.

It is in the broadcasters' best interests, therefore, to expand conferences in order to protect their broadcast rights. More teams, championship games and longer seasons equals more opportunities for revenue while shutting out competition.

Furthermore, there isn't just one broadcaster. There are multiple broadcasters, which causes constant bidding wars between them. The Big XII had Fox and ESPN televise Big XII games. And that's before the bowls, which are also split between Fox and ESPN.

Lost in all this outrage on conference realignment talk is the role of Fox, CBS and ESPN in these shenanigans. The Pac-N is a Fox conference, but when Oklahoma and Texas A&M talked about moving to the SEC (a CBS conference) and the rest talked about going to the Big East (an ESPN conference), all of a sudden Fox saw the light and felt fit to "renegotiate" their TV contract in the future with the Big XII. (And, of course Notre Dame, NBC's play in the market, did not budge.)

Athletic departments get a lot of money from this arrangement, but they lose in terms of things like integrity and mission. The idea that they are all about the fans and the student-athletes has been tirelessly proven to be a threadbare argument, of which this incident is just one of many to show the opposite.

I sometimes wonder if having the NCAA in charge of the whole matter of broadcast rights would be a better idea, like in men's basketball. But it's an academic argument - it's not going to happen. Meanwhile, the BCS piggies will eat at the trough while pretending to serve the interests of the fans and student-athletes well.

In the Patriot League, it is different. You need grades to play in the Patriot League. You need to go to class. It's extremely hard work, but when you come out of it you have a world-class education and an honest college career in football (and if you're the best you may even have a shot in the NFL, too). The Patriot League is not perfect, but with strong academic standards it "gets it" more right than any other conference in America.

xrulesx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Certainly not. In 1896 Lafayette was infamous for the "Yost Affair". Fielding Yost, yes that Fielding Yost who would coach Michigan, was a player for West Virginia. Lafayette beat West Virginia and Yost decided to enroll at Lafayette mid-season and help us beat national power Penn for the mythical National Championship.

"In October 1896, after his team lost three times to Lafayette in home games played on three different fields over the course of three days,[2][3] Yost became a remarkable personification of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em." He transferred in mid-season to join Coach Parke H. Davis' national championship team at Lafayette. Just a week after playing against Davis in West Virginia, Yost was playing for Davis in Lafayette's historic 6–4 win over the Quakers.[3]

The fortuitous timing of Yost's appearance on the Lafayette roster did not go unnoticed by Penn officials. They called it "the Yost affair." The Philadelphia Ledger quoted Yost as saying that he came to Lafayette only to play football. The fact that Yost appeared in a Lafayette uniform only once... in the Penn game[4]... and that he returned to West Virginia within two weeks of the contest... did not help appearances. He assured all concerned that he would return to Lafayette for at least three years of study.[5] But 1897 found him no longer a student or a player, but a coach."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fielding_Yost

There were other eligibility issues on that 1896 Lafayette team, notably "Babe" Rinehardt, the inventor of the football helmet. That's why 1896 is the only year that Lehigh declined to play Lafayette in "The Rivalry" - the official reason being (I believe) Reinhart, but the Yost incident had to be fresh on everyone's minds too.

[RichH2]

LFN , nice point on Fox and TV $$ controlling and fueling BCS greed. Somehow, I doubt that PL schools will ever be sullied by TV packages. Dont think TV69 has that much $$. Maybe we could get some T shirts.
Q, Does anyone know whether schools or Pl get any $$ from the occasional football games on Fox Atlantic and CBS College? What about the weeky PL games on CBS College? It would be revealing to see hw much we get from these outlets, if anything. Dont think PL needs to worry about PL being bought and controlled by TV

[Franks Tanks]

There were other eligibility issues on that 1896 Lafayette team, notably "Babe" Rinehardt, the inventor of the football helmet. That's why 1896 is the only year that Lehigh declined to play Lafayette in "The Rivalry" - the official reason being (I believe) Reinhart, but the Yost incident had to be fresh on everyone's minds too.

Lafayette was the USC of the 1890's xlolx

[ngineer]

If you believe the Ivies (and other schools) were as "pure as the driven snow" vis a vis scholarships, payments to players and other sorts of illegal activities with regards to their football programs etc. through the 1920's, 30's and 40's, you are very much deluded.

I'm not advocating a return to such nefarious practices but to believe that the PL and IL are (and were) these bastions of integrity whereby football scholarships will sully their reputations is very sanctimonious imo.

No one has said the PL teams are perfect; but at least we try to be what college football was meant to be. Real students at one school playing real students from another school.

[RichH2]

xrotatehx Good laugh thanks Tankxbowx. People forget that it was only in the 50s that Ivies got out of the "Big" time football scene. Even up until the early 60s LU, LC HC were being still in the mix.

In today'sworld, I, unlike HC board would not like to return to that level, even if it were possible. I like the FCS. For the most part it is still "college" football. Teams that are apart of the college , not like most BCS where the school merely provides a name and a stadium for a pro team. xnonox

[DetroitFlyer]

Well, if we really want to talk about one of if not the very best model of how to play college football, you have to laser focus on the University of Dayton Flyers. As a conference, I will certainly give the nod to the PL or Ivy League over the PFL, but on an individual team basis, no one if FCS does football better than the Flyers. now, I am not saying everything UD does is perfect, but on balance, the long term success of the program is among the very best.

OK, back to arguing about the PL giving scholarships.... Oh wait, news flash, according to the NCAA, the Patriot League provides athletic scholarships for football today!

Only the Ivy League and the Pioneer Football League are non-athletic scholarship for football in Division I.

[DFW HOYA]

No one has said the PL teams are perfect; but at least we try to be what college football was meant to be. Real students at one school playing real students from another school.

That's not fair to a lot of other schools. Is a football player at Kansas State not a real student, where a 2.0 high school GPA is all a student needs to be admitted (and up to 10% of the entire class can be admitted with less than this)?

Is an Ohio State football player not "real" because, in his state, a high school diploma is all he (or any Ohio student) needs to be admitted?

Or what about an HBCU like Texas Southern, with a 820 on the SAT as the minimum (the same minimum as the NCAA) for all students? TSU graduates 41% of its football players, poor by PL standards but the school itself graduates ony 12% of its freshman class. Who are the "real" students, then?

Let's not try to hold everyone to one standard. Remember, thousands of Ivy League students graduate in the bottom half of their class every year.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

That's not fair to a lot of other schools. Is a football player at Kansas State not a real student, where a 2.0 high school GPA is all a student needs to be admitted (and up to 10% of the entire class can be admitted with less than this)?

Is an Ohio State football player not "real" because, in his state, a high school diploma is all he (or any Ohio student) needs to be admitted?

If they're just there to get a shot at the NFL rather than go to class? No, they're not. Granted, not everyone at Ohio State or Kansas State are like that. But there's enough shenanigans at (say) USC to question whether they are "real students". Was O.J. Mayo a "real student"?


Or what about an HBCU like Texas Southern, with a 820 on the SAT as the minimum (the same minimum as the NCAA) for all students? TSU graduates 41% of its football players, poor by PL standards but the school itself graduates only 12% of its freshman class. Who are the "real" students, then?

Let's not try to hold everyone to one standard. Remember, thousands of Ivy League students graduate in the bottom half of their class every year.

You are 100% correct that different schools have different missions, and it's a trap to think what will work for rich private schools will also work for resource-poor schools in, say, Louisiana.

At Texas Southern, football is fulfilling missions because it 1) attracts male students at 2) their student-athletes graduate at a greater clip than the incoming classes. They have other big issues, but in terms of these two institutional goals TxSo is performing fantastically.

But the Texas', Ohio State's and USC's don't have this problem. They are practically burning money as it is. Their athletes are there to keep the money rolling in, and fans at schools like USC don't seem to much care if the family of Reggie Bush gets to live high off the hog courtesy of the athletic department, or if a basketball player decides to use the USC name to simply make a jump to the pros rather than go to class.

[ngineer]

What I was saying was that at the PL the athletic teams are supposed to mirror the student the body as opposed to the 'big time' athletics where the athletes on campus have a major deviation from the overall academic profile. Yes, other schools and conferences strive for the same goal. I did not say the PL exclusively did this; however, it is the stated purpose of the PL to strive for that standard, and I don't know how many other conferences actually have that as their mission statement.
Yes, there are real students at Ohio State who are also athletes, as there are some at Oklahoma as well. But we also know the profile of the football teams at these schools do not approach the image of the student body.

[RichH2]

A school with 20,000 or 30,000 students can of course have both student-athletes and athletes. Other than a few schools will anyone claim that the student aspect of the college experience has any real relevance to the athletic department. Remember the case of the BBall player at Creighton who sued because he couldn't read. An extreme example true but symptomanic of big time sports .
Knight commission report out today recommending among other things cutting $$ for athletic success and putting more of the playoff and TV $$ towards schools that are meeting and exceeding academic goals. A good 1st step.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Knight commission report out today recommending among other things cutting $$ for athletic success and putting more of the playoff and TV $$ towards schools that are meeting and exceeding academic goals. A good 1st step.

. . . unless the BCS just goes semi-pro like a lot of people suggest. The athletes are relieved of the burden of attending lectures or taking exams and can be awarded a state-acknowledged certificate of completion in athletics or maybe an ***ociates degree in athletics. I have no problem with that at all.

But as I said, they can't call it "college football" any more. The right to call the game "college football" should be an honor reserved to institutions that graduate at least, say, 80 % of their players with bachelor's degrees in recognized fields of academic study such as biology or economics or music or computer science.

[RichH2]

not ambulatory interdigitation? You sir are an elitist. Why should we expect some of these kids to attend cl*** ,especially since most didnot have to do so in high school.

[bison137]

OK, back to arguing about the PL giving scholarships.... Oh wait, news flash, according to the NCAA, the Patriot League provides athletic scholarships for football today!

Only the Ivy League and the Pioneer Football League are non-athletic scholarship for football in Division I.



To clarify, the NCAA does not call them athletic scholarships but rather "athletic aid" - defined as "a student-athlete who receives financial aid based in any degree on athletics ability".

Patriot League schools only give out need-based financial aid, but some players have some or all of their aid given as a grant rather than a loan - which it turns it into "athletic aid" to the extent that the grant portion is more and the loan portion less than what a non-athlete would get. No athletic scholarships however and no "athletic aid" at all to someone with rich parents.

[Go...gate]

Well, if we really want to talk about one of if not the very best model of how to play college football, you have to laser focus on the University of Dayton Flyers. As a conference, I will certainly give the nod to the PL or Ivy League over the PFL, but on an individual team basis, no one in FCS does football better than the Flyers. now, I am not saying everything UD does is perfect, but on balance, the long term success of the program is among the very best.

OK, back to arguing about the PL giving scholarships.... Oh wait, news flash, according to the NCAA, the Patriot League provides athletic scholarships for football today!

Only the Ivy League and the Pioneer Football League are non-athletic scholarship for football in Division I.


Not sure what the measuring stick is to lead to this conclusion. I heartily agree that Dayton is a fine school academically and athletically, but how does it rate ahead of everybody else in FCS? Academic progress? Graduation rates? Post graduate educational and employment opportunities? Academic All-Americans? Revenue generated? Winning percentage?

[Pard94]

Not sure what the measuring stick is to lead to this conclusion. I heartily agree that Dayton is a fine school academically and athletically, but how does it rate ahead of everybody else in FCS? Academic progress? Graduation rates? Post graduate educational and employment opportunities? Academic All-Americans? Revenue generated? Winning percentage?

You've taken the bait, Gate. This is goading on PL'ers is one of Detroit Flyers favorite passtimes. He's from Detroit afterall. Playing "Count the Crack Houses" gets old after a while.

[DetroitFlyer]

Not sure what the measuring stick is to lead to this conclusion. I heartily agree that Dayton is a fine school academically and athletically, but how does it rate ahead of everybody else in FCS? Academic progress? Graduation rates? Post graduate educational and employment opportunities? Academic All-Americans? Revenue generated? Winning percentage?

Dayton has one of the best models for playing FCS football. Our kids graduate with real majors, we traditionally have one of the highest numbers of Academic All-Americans each season, we win a ton of games, and we control our costs better than most. We are not a money making machine, we do not suffer from FBS wanabeeism like most on this board, and we can compete with playoff caliber FBS teams, (see Dayton at Fordham 2007). Dayton is able to carve out this niche partly because of the PL aid policy. We win recruiting battles against the PL for great student athletes, especially those upper middle class kids that do not qualify for much PL aid.

[colorless raider]

Pard, you are right on. I cannot ever recall a recruit who visited Gate, and was offered, ever chose Dayton.

[Pard94]

Pard, you are right on. I cannot ever recall a recruit who visited Gate, and was offered, ever chose Dayton.

The guy who plows my driveway went to Dayton. He has a degree in driveway plowing. He plows a mean driveway. I'll give him that.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The guy who plows my driveway went to Dayton. He has a degree in driveway plowing. He plows a mean driveway. I'll give him that.

The guy who plows my driveway went to Lehigh - we've been through this. I think the guy who plows his driveway might have gone to Dayton, though.

[crusader11]

Dayton has one of the best models for playing FCS football. Our kids graduate with real majors, we traditionally have one of the highest numbers of Academic All-Americans each season, we win a ton of games, and we control our costs better than most. We are not a money making machine, we do not suffer from FBS wanabeeism like most on this board, and we can compete with playoff caliber FBS teams, (see Dayton at Fordham 2007). Dayton is able to carve out this niche partly because of the PL aid policy. We win recruiting battles against the PL for great student athletes, especially those upper middle class kids that do not qualify for much PL aid.

I'll take Holy Cross over you guys any day of the week. Are my friends not graduating with "real majors?" Do we not win a ton of games and went toe-to-toe with the best team in the country this year?

Your envy of the Patriot League is comical.

[carney2]

Stop picking on Mr. Flyer. Dayton University is, after all the Harvard of...well...uh...Montgomery County, Ohio.

[Go...gate]

Back to topic. Shouldn't SOMETHING be stated by now by the Council of Presidents or the Commissioner?

[carney2]

Back to topic. Shouldn't SOMETHING be stated by now by the Council of Presidents or the Commissioner?

Only if there's something to "state" - or something that the Star Chamber wills the plebeians be apprised if. You expect way too much.

[CrusaderBob]

If there was no decision made on scholarships - or anything else substantive for that matter - the statement might read something like this ...


The PL Council of Presidents met June 7 & 8 in NYC, made no definitive decisions about anything and made no changes to any league rules. Several subcommittee reports with proposed rules were presented. Each President will bring those proposals back to their respective schools for study to determine institutional support or rejection of the proposed rule change. A vote for final approval on these proposals is anticipated at the December meeting of the Council of Presidents. If we make any changes then, look for a press release following that meeting.

PS - If the only decision we make that you care about is merit aid in football, we told you a year ago to look for a decision in December 2010. Our calendar still says June 2010. So keep your shirts on - we're 2/3's of the way through the time table we gave ourselves and still have six months to decide.


Seriously, if nothing was decided, what more is there to be said. December is the witching hour.

[ngineer]

If there was no decision made on scholarships - or anything else substantive for that matter - the statement might read something like this ...



Seriously, if nothing was decided, what more is there to be said. December is the witching hour.

...or 'which'ing hour. Yes, if anything of import was to be disseminated, we would certainly have heard by now. We shall continue to just 'twist slowly in the wind'...to borrow a phrase from Watergate days.xsmhx

Put spike in this thread.:(

[carney2]

December is the witching hour.

Again, you have high expectations of this bunch. How many ways and how many times does this need to be stated:

As a group, their dream and primary goal is to do absolutely nothing. So far they are right on schedule.

[DFW HOYA]

As a group, their dream and primary goal is to do absolutely nothing. So far they are right on schedule.

There's a quote attributed to Rev. John Brooks, S.J. over at the Crossports board which seems timely:

"You know when we first started the league and the presidents would meet, we would tell one another, 'We're building a model that others will follow.' So far, no one has followed."

[Bogus Megapardus]

There's a quote attributed to Rev. John Brooks, S.J. over at the Crossports board which seems timely:

"You know when we first started the league and the presidents would meet, we would tell one another, 'We're building a model that others will follow.' So far, no one has followed."

All in due time. When the über-libs start taxing scholarships as earned income (which they could do in a heartbeat, by the way) it'll be a whole new playing field out there.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

All in due time. When the über-libs start taxing scholarships as earned income (which they could do in a heartbeat, by the way) it'll be a whole new playing field out there.

It would be the first step towards paying college players, which is why it will never happen.

[RichH2]

No news , so we should drop this thread and start on early recruiting news and rumors until camps open. Summer started today7 weeks or so til camps start

[carney2]

we should drop this thread

Amen.

[ngineer]

Hearing Adjourned. xsmashx

[Sader87]

Agreed, but the league still sucks...booyah!!

[hawkhunter]

Maybe we should drop Sader 87.... Well maybe not, I do need a good laugh once a day.

[Franks Tanks]

Agreed, but the league still sucks...booyah!!

You have demonstrated that you know little about college football. Nothing you say carries and weight.

[OL FU]

Hearing Adjourned. xsmashx

Drinks are on ngineerxbeerchugx

[crusader11]

You have demonstrated that you know little about college football. Nothing you say carries and weight.

He is not representative of your typical Holy Cross alum, don't worry.

[Sader87]

He is not representative of your typical Holy Cross alum, don't worry.

I beg to differ crusader11....maybe I am not representative, with regards to the PL, of the "graduating post since joining the PL" HC alumni but you can't deny that there is a very large faction of HC alums/fans who have tuned out HC football since they dropped football scholarships.

I know you're very proud of what we've done under Coach Gilmore, and you should be, but don't deign to think that HC football came into existence upon his arrival at Mt St James.

[Franks Tanks]

I beg to differ crusader11....maybe I am not representative, with regards to the PL, of the "graduating post since joining the PL" HC alumni but you can't deny that there is a very large faction of HC alums/fans who have tuned out HC football since they dropped football scholarships.

I know you're very proud of what we've done under Coach Gilmore, and you should be, but don't deign to think that HC football came into existence upon his arrival at Mt St James.

Sader...virtually every college football program in the Northeast US has declined significantly in importance in the last 25-40 years. The Ivy games once truely mattered on the national stage-- now not so much. Syracuse and Army were once national powers, they are now among the worst teams in FBS and have been for years. BC has joined a premier league but nationally they are a blip on the college football rader. UCONN is the only school that has significantly upgraded its football program recently. Outside of the pie in the sky dream that Holy Cross football would be in the Big East (making HC 1/2 the size of the next smallest school in a BCS conference in Wake Forest), HC would be in a simialr position scholarship or no scholarship.

[Sader87]

I haven't advocated for HC to become FBS...what I would like to see is a return of football scholarships at HC which would allow them to play the occassional Army, Duke, BC etc. (for their bowl eligibility purposes) as well as putting them on an "even playing field" if you will with the Villanova's, the Richmond's and William&Mary's of the FCS world.

[Franks Tanks]

I haven't advocated for HC to become FBS...what I would like to see is a return of football scholarships at HC which would allow them to play the occassional Army, Duke, BC etc. (for their bowl eligibility purposes) as well as putting them on an "even playing field" if you will with the Villanova's, the Richmond's and William&Mary's of the FCS world.

A reasonable request, but also one your school doesnt seem to to pushing. If you think scholarships and playing Nova at Fitton will bring 20k fans you are mistaken. Holy Cross already gets more fans than most of teh scholarship CAA schools. Do you reasonably expect a large increase in attendance and interest in HC games if scholarships are given?

[Sader87]

A reasonable request, but also one your school doesnt seem to to pushing. If you think scholarships and playing Nova at Fitton will bring 20k fans you are mistaken. Holy Cross already gets more fans than most of teh scholarship CAA schools. Do you reasonably expect a large increase in attendance and interest in HC games if scholarships are given?

I do actually...maybe not the 20,000+ we'd occassionally attract in the 1980's but a substantial increase over the 5-10,000 that has been the norm in the non-scholarship era.

If HC were to augment its PL schedule with say UMass, Villanova, William&Mary, Harvard, Dartmouth and a rotating FBS school (Army, Navy, BC, UConn et. al.) every year, you'd win back both many disillusioned alumni and many greater Worcester fans and I could see HC drawing regularly in the 15,000 range easily.

[Franks Tanks]

I do actually...maybe not the 20,000+ we'd occassionally attract in the 1980's but a substantial increase over the 5-10,000 that has been the norm in the non-scholarship era.

If HC were to augment its PL schedule with say UMass, Villanova, William&Mary, Harvard, Dartmouth and a rotating FBS school (Army, Navy, BC, UConn et. al.) every year, you'd win back both many disillusioned alumni and many greater Worcester fans and I could see HC drawing regularly in the 15,000 range easily.

Minus the FBS game isnt that pretty much your current schedule.

[Go...gate]

I beg to differ crusader11....maybe I am not representative, with regards to the PL, of the "graduating post since joining the PL" HC alumni but you can't deny that there is a very large faction of HC alums/fans who have tuned out HC football since they dropped football scholarships.

I know you're very proud of what we've done under Coach Gilmore, and you should be, but don't deign to think that HC football came into existence upon his arrival at Mt St James.


HC had ups and downs even when it HAD scholarships, and I'm sure Fitton was not filled every week in those days, either. How about in the 1960's and 70's? HC was good but rarely great.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If HC were to... win ... I could see HC drawing regularly in the 15,000 range easily.

Put your last post in context. That's what it's really about in the end. If HC becomes a regular winner of PL championships and maybe hosts a playoff game of three, more fans will show. It's a law of the universe.

[Sader87]

Agreed, it comes down to winning but many alumni and other former HC fans don't think the school is truly commited to winning given the restraints of not having football scholarships.

There's also a difference between beating Georgetown (sorry DFW Hoya) than say an Army or a UMass.

[Ken_Z]

Agreed, it comes down to winning but many alumni and other former HC fans don't think the school is truly commited to winning given the restraints of not having football scholarships.


true, so shouldn't your mantra be Holy Cross Sucks?

[Sader87]

true, so shouldn't your mantra be Holy Cross Sucks?

The administration at HC has been misguided regarding athletics since Fr. HWSNBM S.J.

[crusader11]

Fr. HWSNBM S.J.

You're a loser. That happened 25 years ago. Move on and support the college or get out.

[Sader87]

You're a loser. That happened 25 years ago. Move on and support the college or get out.

Sometimes the truth hurts brother.

Fr Brooks is a great man but he made a mistake (we all do) on this one.

[bison137]

How about in the 1960's and 70's? HC was good but rarely great.


Boy, you're an easy grader. Wish you had been grading my papers instead of the professors I had! xlolx

The reality is that HC's football performance in the 1960's and 1970's ranged from OK to poor.

Collective record for the 1960's was 42-45-4. Collective record for the 1970's was 37-68-3. Granted the schedule was harder, with BC and Army usually on it, but it wasn't that hard that being 31 games under .500 could be considered decent.

(BTW, the typical HC schedule from the 1970's would be more challenging today since UConn and Rutgers playing at a 1-AA level back then and Villanova's program had stagnated to the point where they dropped football in 1980.)

[Sader87]

Not denying HC struggled throughout much of the 60's and 70's...in actuality HC nearly dropped football in the early 1970's. In fairness, HC was probably only really truly D1 up to about the mid 1960's. The schedules up to and through the early/mid 60's regularly had schools like Penn St., Syracuse, Rutgers, BC, Army et. al. on them.

The 1970's schedules were somewhat watered down but even during that decade HC had victories over D1 (then and now...Rutgers was D1 in the 1970's, going to a bowl in 1978) Army, BC, Temple, Rutgers and Air Force.

All I'm really saying is that the entire PL would benefit by having scholarships. By not having schollies we are really relegating ourselves to near insignificance in the college football world.

[Go...gate]

Boy, you're an easy grader. Wish you had been grading my papers instead of the professors I had! xlolx

The reality is that HC's football performance in the 1960's and 1970's ranged from OK to poor.

Collective record for the 1960's was 42-45-4. Collective record for the 1970's was 37-68-3. Granted the schedule was harder, with BC and Army usually on it, but it wasn't that hard that being 31 games under .500 could be considered decent.

(BTW, the typical HC schedule from the 1970's would be more challenging today since UConn and Rutgers playing at a 1-AA level back then and Villanova's program had stagnated to the point where they dropped football in 1980.)


I probably should have said "occasionally good but rarely great". They did play challenging schedules, as did Colgate. OTOH, BC was not as strong then, nor was Rutgers until Frank Burns came along in 1973 and began the first phase of Rutgers going "Big-Time" (and was rewarded by being fired) which was not completed until Greg Schiano came along.

I still remember HC Neil Wheelright leaving Colgate for the Holy Cross HC job after the 1975 season, complaining, amomg other things, that the best that Colgate could ever do was to be .500 and that he wanted to be someplace where the prospects of success were greater. How ironic! Except for one season, Wheelright set no worlds on fire at HC, either.

[Go...gate]

Not denying HC struggled throughout much of the 60's and 70's...in actuality HC nearly dropped football in the early 1970's. In fairness, HC was probably only really truly D1 up to about the mid 1960's. The schedules up to and through the early/mid 60's regularly had schools like Penn St., Syracuse, Rutgers, BC, Army et. al. on them.

The 1970's schedules were somewhat watered down but even during that decade HC had victories over D1 (then and now...Rutgers was D1 in the 1970's, going to a bowl in 1978) Army, BC, Temple, Rutgers and Air Force.

All I'm really saying is that the entire PL would benefit by having scholarships[B]. By not having schollies we are really relegating ourselves to near insignificance in the college football world.

On this we agree, though admittedly, I was not in favor of scholarships for many years. However, Division I athletics (including FCS) have changed and I get the feeling that if the PL must go scholarship in football or it will become a companion conference to the Pioneer, Ivy and NEC.

[Sader87]

BC was very strong some years in the 1970's...as much as it pains me to say, they beat Texas in 1976 for instance. Holy Cross also played the Burns coached Rutgers team that went to a bowl in 1978 fairly tough losing 31-21.

Colgate should also be "throwing up in their mouths" with regards to where the PL in general has brought them...compare the Red Raiders schedule from 1987 to next year's Colgate slate for instance.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Lehigh was D2 for most of the 70's and was beating Rutgers on a regular basis. They were playing Virginia, Rutgers, Army, Navy as well. In fact Lehigh, has played Rutgers 74 times which means the
Scarlet Knights are currently the Hawks second most played opponent. Bucknell and Lehigh will play for the 74th time this year. Everyone can believe what they want but there hasn't been much different between Lehigh, Bucknell, Colgate, HC and Lafayette for the last 40 years.

Holy Cross and Colgate might have been considered 1-A in the 1960's, '70's and '80's but they were playing schedules that were seriously watered down.

[DFW HOYA]

The PL teams come from three distinct traditions prior to I-AA:

--Two teams which dropped down from I-A (Colgate, HC)
--Three teams which upgraded from the small college ranks (Bucknell, Lehigh, Lafayette)
--Two teams which went from major college to nothing to club to Div. III (Fordham, Georgetown)

Because of this, the fan bases have divergent aspirations and institutional memory. The HC fans are bitter playing in the PL because, well, they used to play BC, Army, etc. Lehigh fans doen't get bitter about the year to year schedule because Week 11 will always be Lafayette and that's what counts (heaven help the PL commissioner the day when they get placed in week 4...) For Georgetown, and to a lesser extent, Fordham, there hasn't been a truly memorable game in 40 or more years and it's a lot harder to rally people to football if they've never seen a big game in their student or alumni lifetimes.



.

[Go...gate]

Lehigh was D2 for most of the 70's and was beating Rutgers on a regular basis. They were playing Virginia, Rutgers, Army, Navy as well. Everyone can believe what they want but there hasn't been much different between Lehigh, Bucknell, Colgate, HC and Lafayette for the last 40 years.

Holy Cross and Colgate might have been considered 1-A in the 1960's, '70's and '80's but they were playing schedules that were seriously watered down.


HC and Colgate went in the direction the Ivy League and nearly all of the East went in - towards deemphasis. Hell, Pitt almost dropped FB in the late 1960's because of financial concerns and lack of interest. Everybody's schedule was watered down a bit. Emphasis was more on the Lambert Trophy and few, outside of Joe Paterno, thought about serious national contention.

[Go...gate]

The PL teams come from three distinct traditions prior to I-AA:

--Two teams which dropped down from I-A (Colgate, HC)
--Three teams which upgraded from the small college ranks (Bucknell, Lehigh, Lafayette)
--Two teams which went from major college to nothing to club to Div. III (Fordham, Georgetown)

Because of this, the fan bases have divergent aspirations and institutional memory. The HC fans are bitter playing in the PL because, well, they used to play BC, Army, etc. Lehigh fans doen't get bitter about the year to year schedule because Week 11 will always be Lafayette and that's what counts (heaven help the PL commissioner the day when they get placed in week 4...) For Georgetown, and to a lesser extent, Fordham, there hasn't been a truly memorable game in 40 or more years and it's a lot harder to rally people to football if they've never seen a big game in their student or alumni lifetimes.

.


Actually, Lafayette was a I-A "Major Independent" and you could look it up. :)

[DFW HOYA]

Actually, Lafayette was a I-A "Major Independent" and you could look it up. :)

The problem is, the Middle Atlantic Conference/Middle Three was not considered then as "major" conference football.

1937-1937 NCAA College Division (Small College)
1938-1950 NCAA University Division (Major College)
1951-1972 NCAA College Division (Small College)
1973-1977 NCAA Division II
1978-20XX NCAA Division I-AA

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/patriot/lafayette/index.php

[Bogus Megapardus]

The problem is, the Middle Atlantic Conference/Middle Three was not considered then as "major" conference football.

1937-1937 NCAA College Division (Small College)
1938-1950 NCAA University Division (Major College)
1951-1972 NCAA College Division (Small College)
1973-1977 NCAA Division II
1978-20XX NCAA Division I-AA

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/patriot/lafayette/index.php

Lafayette was classified as "major college" during the same era that Georgetown and Fordham were classified as "major college." That era is long gone. The New Socialists coerced even greater shares of tax dollars from citizens in order to pay students to play at state universities instead (they couldn't possibly compete otherwise). That system remains in effect today. Those choosing not to suffer the smarmy, watered-down, politically-correct indoctrination interlaced within today's state universities must pay twice - once in taxes (from which they derive no benefit whatsoever) and once again in tuition. The New Socialists decimated America's enviable system of higher education (and forced the suspension of the teams at Fordham and Georgetown for decades), but hey - those "elected officials" got re-elected (I reformed higher education!!!) and some even got their names on campus buildings, so it was not all for naught, I suppose

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Until shortly after WW II, the idea of a "football scholarship" didn't really exist. In the early days of higher education at some rich schools the entire student body was "scholarshipped" and costs of higher education were not a large issue. It was the funding crisis after World War II - and possibly the GI bill, which created a huge influx of new collegians - that caused religious private schools to have a need to charge large tuitions that caused many schools to drop football, including Fordham and Georgetown.

Last year, the New York Post claimed that Fordham's next incoming class will be the first scholarship class since the 1930s. This is inaccurate. Fordham has never had a scholarship class.

[DFW HOYA]

There were scholarships, but the cost of tuition was relatively low (tuition at Georgetown was $450 in 1950). The cost of room and board was an issue, however. The late John Wooden recalled that he repaid his scholarship at Purdue by working as a busboy at frat houses. When a donor offered to cover his entire scholarship, Wooden declined, wondering if he could ever pay it back.

Georgetown did not drop scholarship football over the cost of scholarships but of low gate receipts and a report that enrollment would drop with the Korean War.

Also, Penn was the last Ivy to maintain scholarships in football, and held on to them as long as it could.

[bison137]

Holy Cross also played the Burns coached Rutgers team that went to a bowl in 1978 fairly tough losing 31-21.



I went to many Rutgers games in the 70's since I lived nearby and my brother is an alum. It was not high level football to say the least. The "bowl game" they went to was the first Garden State Bowl, which went defunct very quickly due to lack of interest. Rutgers was selected to try to draw some fans but it didn't help.

BTW, it wasn't that tough to lose to Rutgers by ten at that time. RU only beat a weak Bucknell team by 14 that same year. The next year, Rutgers beat HC 28-0 while edging another mediocre Bucknell team 16-14 in a game RU should have lost.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Boy, I can't wait to play Holy Cross this year. This is gonna be fun. November 13 at Noon, at the Tajmafootball in Easton. I'll be there. So should you.

[crusader11]

Boy, I can't wait to play Holy Cross this year. This is gonna be fun. November 13 at Noon, at the Tajmafootball in Easton. I'll be there. So should you.

Gonna be a dandy. Hopefully we will get a repeat of 2008.

[breezy]

Be careful what you wish for!

[Bogus Megapardus]

See what I mean? Patriot League rivalries are the best. I like these games - there's no reason why the intensity of these historic and multifaceted rivalries should not be shared by a wider audience.

[Sader87]

A billion Chinese and a lot of cranky, older HC alums couldn't care less....

[Bogus Megapardus]

A billion Chinese and a lot of cranky, older HC alums couldn't care less....

. . . which is why no one outside this forum even has heard of the College of the Holy Cross. It's not even the most popular school in Worcester anymore. That distinction has belonged to Clark University for several years now - an institution that has taken the bull by the horns and made a name for itself. Time to change your tune, Sader87. Your Big East dreams were plowed inartfully over the eastern berm of I-290 long ago. Step into the modern era of collegiate football, won't you?

[crusader11]

older HC alums couldn't care less....

You could not be more wrong.

Thanks Bogus for attempting to talk sense into him. Although, I vehemently disagree that no one outside of his forum has heard of Holy Cross (I am assuming that was just a dig at 87?).

[Bogus Megapardus]

You could not be more wrong.

Thanks Bogus for attempting to talk sense into him. Although, I vehemently disagree that no one outside of his forum has heard of Holy Cross (I am assuming that was just a dig at 87?).

It was a dig, crusader11. You know that. Of course I have the utmost respect for Clark University as well, whose charter prohibits varsity football but whose competitive lacrosse and basketball squads regularly earn more Telegram ink than do the Crusaders. It's just that I, for one, would much rather view a Holy Cross-Lafayette contest in person, live at the stadium, than watch a Nebraska-Texas game on television. Maybe it's just me.

Perhaps an uniformed Central Massachusetts population might be of a similar mind, given proper advancement.

[Go...gate]

. . . which is why no one outside this forum even has heard of the College of the Holy Cross. It's not even the most popular school in Worcester anymore. That distinction has belonged to Clark University for several years now - an institution that has taken the bull by the horns and made a name for itself. Time to change your tune, Sader87. Your Big East dreams were plowed inartfully over the eastern berm of I-290 long ago. Step into the modern era of collegiate football, won't you?


Bogus, I think you might want to reconsider that statement. Clark is a good school, but...

[Go...gate]

You could not be more wrong.

Thanks Bogus for attempting to talk sense into him. Although, I vehemently disagree that no one outside of this forum has heard of Holy Cross (I am assuming that was just a dig at 87?).


I am assuming, indeed hoping, you are correct, Crusader 11.

[Go...gate]

A billion Chinese and a lot of cranky, older HC alums couldn't care less....


I know a couple of those older alums and a youngster who is at HC now. When asked about the Patriot League, all three liked the idea that the Cross associates itself with academically strong institutions like itself (not to mention Colgate, a peer in size to HC and a respected old athletic rival). Granted, it is a small survey size, but maybe also there is a recognition of the real reason most people go to college - to get an education and better themselves for the real world.

[Fordham]

The PL teams come from three distinct traditions prior to I-AA:

--Two teams which dropped down from I-A (Colgate, HC)
--Three teams which upgraded from the small college ranks (Bucknell, Lehigh, Lafayette)
--Two teams which went from major college to nothing to club to Div. III (Fordham, Georgetown)

Because of this, the fan bases have divergent aspirations and institutional memory. The HC fans are bitter playing in the PL because, well, they used to play BC, Army, etc. Lehigh fans doen't get bitter about the year to year schedule because Week 11 will always be Lafayette and that's what counts (heaven help the PL commissioner the day when they get placed in week 4...) For Georgetown, and to a lesser extent, Fordham, there hasn't been a truly memorable game in 40 or more years and it's a lot harder to rally people to football if they've never seen a big game in their student or alumni lifetimes.



.xthumbsupx good take imo.

[ngineer]

Why is this thread still breathing?! Clearly, the topic has shifted due to the Coneheads' inability to communicate regarding their recent seance. Maybe a new thread entitled "Crusader Rabbit and the Windmill Joust"...;)

[OL FU]

Why is this thread still breathing?! Clearly, the topic has shifted due to the Coneheads' inability to communicate regarding their recent seance. Maybe a new thread entitled "Crusader Rabbit and the Windmill Joust"...;)

And when are you buying drinks. I deserve a drink. It is not easy for a southern boy to keep up with 20 pages of yankees talkingxrolleyesx

[Bogus Megapardus]

Bogus, I think you might want to reconsider that statement. Clark is a good school, but...

Just making a point, that's all.

[dakotadan]

Although, I vehemently disagree that no one outside of his forum has heard of Holy Cross (I am assuming that was just a dig at 87?).

Hockey fans in Grand Forks, NoDak have definately heard of Holy Cross! xthumbsupx

[ngineer]

And when are you buying drinks. I deserve a drink. It is not easy for a southern boy to keep up with 20 pages of yankees talkingxrolleyesx


Maybe we should do this on an 'Etch-a-Sketch'....So you can show your 'draw'l...;)