Montana and/or NDSU to the WAC?

[JBB]

The WAC is by all accounts on the verge of losing Boise State. With that real possiblility talk of a replacement, or replacements, has started.

NDSU has now officially been mentioned as a possible new WAC member:


Geographically speaking there are very few options remaining for the WAC, unless a school like Montana decides the time to jump up in competition is now. North Dakota State? The odds of any team leaving another conference for the WAC are very slim, as the WAC find themselves toward the bottom portion of the pecking order of collegiate conferences in football.

http://www.examiner.com/x-30425-College-Football-Examiner~y2010m6d2-Boise-State-Mountain-West-union-coming-soon

This comes with a dose of surprise but it is not unexpected. NDSU has had as its long-term goal full membership in an FBS all sports conference. The State of North Dakota is ripe for this type of move. The stadium we have now is small but average attendance is an FBS acceptable 18,000. Things seem to be working out in a way that would not only provide for a great new basketball arena but also a new football stadium. The football stadium wont be talked about unless an FBS all sports conference invite becomes a more realistic probability.

Its my belief that NDSU is actively seeking this type of invite. Not publicly of course but behind the scenes. The WAC would mean leaving the Summit and MVFC. The replacement in those conferences would of course be UND.

The way the basketball arena is being worked out could in the end give NDSU a new football stadium. The Fabulous Fargo Dome would be just enough to get us in but membership in an all sports FBS football conference would be the catalyst to get a new, much large football stadium with the still untouched funds under the Dome Authorities control. The FFD would probably become a hockey arena. NDSU hockey? The WCHA is going to need some members soon.

This is the first mention we have had in the "official" FBS talk. It wont be the last. I truly hope this could work out for NDSU.

[JBB]

Another thing to consider is the overall balance of the athletic programs at NDSU. We have NCAA tournament appearances in mens BB, womens softball and womens volleyball. Our track teams are very good. Our football has, in a few short years been able to beat several FBS teams and achieve a #1 ranking the FCS. The money is a big question but attendance and interest have been rising each year since our move to D1. Its not a reality yet, but membership in and all sports FBS conference is now on the table.

[NDB]

NDSU's been mentioned in some third rate article as a possibility for the WAC -TIME TO BOOK YOUR TRIP TO HONOLULU, JBB!

(Do they have direct flights from la-la-land?)

[JBB]

Current membership:

Boise State
Nevada
Fresno State
Idaho
Hawaii
Louisiana Tech
Utah State
New Mexico State
San Jose State

New WAC::

Nevada
Fresno State
Idaho
Hawaii
Louisiana Tech
Utah State
New Mexico State
San Jose State
Montana and/or
NDSU?

With the addition of both the conference has 10. Thats not a good number. Chances are they are looking for 1. Montana would certainly get an invite before NDSU, if NDSU were to be considered at all.

The mention is just what you say it is NDB, but it fits in with NDSUs long term goals for athletics. If Wyoming can play FBS football NDSU can too. We also have a good, competitive line up of D1 sports. No matter how its sliced or diced NDSU is now on the FBS radar screen. The mention is right in line with NDSUs ambitions. Thats what makes it exciting. Its just another nudge in that direction. With the changes that are undoubtably coming where there is smoke there just may be fire.

[TexasTerror]

With the addition of both the conference has 10. Thats not a good number. Chances are they are looking for 1. Montana would certainly get an invite before NDSU, if NDSU were to be considered at all.

Remember - the league is hoping La Tech finds a home. If not, they may have to come up with a few schools that bridge the gap between NM and LA.

TXST has been very interested in a WAC spot and UTSA may be as well (though I think they feel they are a better fit in C-USA).

North Texas turned one down because the WAC at the time refused to bring in Arkansas State and La-Lafayette as well. NT did not want to make long trips each time out and that makes sense.

An East Division with TXST, UTSA, NT, La Tech, ASU and ULL would be great, especially if it meant keeping NMSU out 'west' with the schools they are a better fit with.

[FargoBison]

I agree with TT, if La Tech leaves for the CUSA then it could open a window for the WAC to move northeast instead of southeast.

I do like the idea of NDSU in the WAC but it really doesn't have much to do with football. A number of our academic peers are in the WAC and also the Summit isn't a great long term option for a number of reasons. I do love the MVFC though, even if the league has been rough on us.

[LakesBison]

ILL goto hawaii, hellz ya!

lots of NDSU academic peers in the WAC.

NDSU's basketball, track, volleyball, softball, would be in the top half of the WAC, the football team would get there quickly.

[JALMOND]

For years, talk around the state of Montana about leaving the Big Sky is if one goes, the other has to go as well. In other words, if Montana moves up, Montana State must go with them. Helena has basically ended all talk by that edict, even going back to the late 70's when the Bobcats had the dominate football program.

Therefore, I'd say the chances of Montana moving to the WAC without Montana State are slim to none (and slim just walked out).

[LakesBison]

psh. thats wrong jalmond. Montana would join NDSU in a heartbeat if the 2 could goto the WAC together

[aggiemba]

Hmmm.... interesting. Out here on the West Coast we are hearing that UC Davis and Cal Poly will be replacing Boise and LA Tech in the WAC.

I guess it all depends on the bias of the local media. Will be interesting to see how this all shakes out.

Given all the WAC teams Davis has played the last few seasons, it seems we were trying out for something.

[LakesBison]

MWC would be better for NDSU with Wyoming, Colorado state as peers already in there, but WAC would work.

[JALMOND]

psh. thats wrong jalmond. Montana would join NDSU in a heartbeat if the 2 could goto the WAC together

Both the Bobcats and the Grizzlies have been down this road before and, when the dust settles, both have been in the Big Sky for over 45 years. Helena, as well as both college administrations, seem reluctant to move and leave the other school behind. Big argument against it is that the Cat-Griz game may lose some of its luster if one team was FBS and the other was FCS.

I've also been hearing more about the WAC looking strongly at Cal Poly if Boise State moves. Word is they would rather increase their exposure in California than take a chance in some less populated markets. Chances are better for the WAC to look at some of the bigger markets on the west coast (Davis, Sacramento and Portland) before looking at Missoula and Fargo as well.

[Uncle Rico's Clan]

Things are getting crazy with all this expansion talk. Over on Egriz they are saying that the Mountain West is going to give Boise St. a spot on Monday, and that the PAC-10 is looking to raid 6 teams from the Big 12. I believe the info on BSU to the MWC, but the PAC-10 expanding to 16 seems like a bit of a stretch. These next few months are going to be crazy for NCAA football, it will be i interesting to see how things are going to look once the dust settles.

[JBB]

Maybe its not how big the market is but how big you are in the market? The BSC may have found that out with their desire to gain a foothold in those markets. Its tough to compete in those markets because of the strong focus points that are already there. Is PSU going to gain any market share with membership in the WAC? On the other hand brining in Montana and NDSU gives the WAC total penetration in those states/region.

[TexasTerror]

Hmmm.... interesting. Out here on the West Coast we are hearing that UC Davis and Cal Poly will be replacing Boise and LA Tech in the WAC.

I guess it all depends on the bias of the local media. Will be interesting to see how this all shakes out.

Given all the WAC teams Davis has played the last few seasons, it seems we were trying out for something.

Hard to replace La Tech, if they do not have a place to go to after leaving the WAC... xtwocentsx

The WAC's expansion plans revolve around the ability to get La Tech out of the conference. If La Tech is successful in finding a new home, the WAC has more flexibility.

[RabidRabbit]

With UNO dropping out of the Sunbelt, why wouldn't LaTech look favorably upon joining most of their surrounding smaller D-I compatriots in the Sunbelt?

La Tech to Sunbelt just seems too logical to ignor.

Regarding NDSU to the WAC....xrolleyesxxrolleyesx

NDSU does well with their sports. They, along with the Jacks, have really taken the Summit from the get-go, and look to be dominant in many areas. However, they are over 800 miles from the nearest WAC school, and they would be adding Hawaii Travel to most of their sports 5 different sports each year? NDSU would be isolated and the school the WAC would want to shed at first chance.

IMHO, the MT schools, or Cal Poly & UC-Davis look ripe. Especially UC-Davis, but average FB attendence would need to increase dramatically.

[Big Al]

Here's a thought:

If NDSU is looking for a move up to FBS, why not court the Big XII cast-offs? They would actually be a decent fit with Iowa State, Kansas, & Kansas State.

[darell1976]

Wouldn't history play a part in inviting a team to a FBS conference. NDSU does not have the history in D1 only a D2 powerhouse.

[Redbird Ray]

I could see NDSU in the WAC, but only if Montana goes as well. Better replace the Fargodome turf though.

I tend to think Texas State is the most likely replacement for Boise State in the WAC. La Tech seems content in the WAC, so creating a geographic bridge in Texas makes sense.

I also don't think La Tech goes to CUSA, because I feel like UTSA, FIU/FAU(market/money), and WKU (bball) are better replacement candidates should CUSA get raided.

Just my thoughts though.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Hmmm.... interesting. Out here on the West Coast we are hearing that UC Davis and Cal Poly will be replacing Boise and LA Tech in the WAC.

I guess it all depends on the bias of the local media. Will be interesting to see how this all shakes out.

Given all the WAC teams Davis has played the last few seasons, it seems we were trying out for something.

This, to me, is awful interesting.

Cal Poly and Davis are really Great West schools (read: a conference of a bunch of Cali schools) that play FCS football. A change to the WAC would actually improve their profile across the board. I'm not crazy about them playing FBS ball, but if they can get the facilities, it seems to make some sense....

[JALMOND]

Maybe its not how big the market is but how big you are in the market? The BSC may have found that out with their desire to gain a foothold in those markets. Its tough to compete in those markets because of the strong focus points that are already there. Is PSU going to gain any market share with membership in the WAC? On the other hand brining in Montana and NDSU gives the WAC total penetration in those states/region.

Money is what is fueling all these talks in the FBS. Rutgers has had very little to limited success in football and basketball, yet its place in New Jersey is why the Big 10 is looking very strongly at them.

If the WAC takes Montana and not Montana State, somewhere down the road, the pressure will be too great and the Bobcats will be included in the WAC. The WAC encountered this very problem before with Boise State insisting that the conference take a strong look at Idaho almost every year the Broncos were in the WAC and Idaho was not. The conference finally gave in when Boise talked about pulling out of the WAC and the conference did not want to lose the Broncos football team (sound familiar). Will the conference be willing to take that chance again? Bringing in Montana without Montana State pretty much won't happen. Those scenarios have been played out for almost 35 years.

If the 16 team Pac-10 becomes reality, the wild card for the WAC is Baylor, a fairly good Texas school with a strong athletic program that can strengthen the conference footprint clear to Louisiana Tech. The conference will no doubt have to fight the Mountain West for the Bears. Another market for the WAC in Texas is either San Antonio or Austin. If that doesn't pan out, they will look to strengthen their ties on the west coast which would open up the markets in Sacramento and Portland, both of which are approaching 2 million in population. Both Montana and NDSU have had better success than those universities on the field, but people are revenue. Looking at potential revenue from a presence in Portland, Sacramento, San Antonio or Austin far exceeds the potential of revenue from Missoula or Fargo, especially if you can reasonably expect pressure for inclusion down the road from a Bozeman or Grand Forks. The FBS conferences are conducting these talks to primarily bring in additional revenue and you get more in a bigger market.

[NDB]

Potential revenue? Bwa-ha-ha-ha.

Portland State, Sac State, may be in larger markets, but they have don't have anything more than a negligible share of those markets.

What the WAC needs are stable/well-funded programs that don't bust the travel budgets of members.

The problem is they are on the bottom of the totem pole in the west and the pool of potential members consists entirely of FCS schools.

Any upper echelon FCS team west of the Mississippi is a possibility, but none, save Montana are anywhere close to being a good fit right now.

[goyotes]

Before lower level FBS teams and conferences react to the moves by the big boys, hopefully they take time to study the changing landscape of college sports. Most of the old D2 programs are now FCS and D2 is now rapidly becoming a collection of former NAIA schools. The BCS teams appear to be closer and closer to establishing their own super conferences - how long before they completely separate from the NCAA? It would be interesting to know what % of the non BCS teams are playing in a higher division than they were 20 years ago. Sometimes it seems like the more things change, the more they stay the same.

[darell1976]

Before lower level FBS teams and conferences react to the moves by the big boys, hopefully they take time to study the changing landscape of college sports. Most of the old D2 programs are now FCS and D2 is now rapidly becoming a collection of former NAIA schools. The BCS teams appear to be closer and closer to establishing their own super conferences - how long before they completely separate from the NCAA? It would be interesting to know what % of the non BCS teams are playing in a higher division than they were 20 years ago. Sometimes it seems like the more things change, the more they stay the same.

How about how long before the FCS joins the FBS and NCAA D1 football looks like D1 basketball?

[JALMOND]

Potential revenue? Bwa-ha-ha-ha.

Portland State, Sac State, may be in larger markets, but they have don't have anything more than a negligible share of those markets.

What the WAC needs are stable/well-funded programs that don't bust the travel budgets of members.

The problem is they are on the bottom of the totem pole in the west and the pool of potential members consists entirely of FCS schools.

Any upper echelon FCS team west of the Mississippi is a possibility, but none, save Montana are anywhere close to being a good fit right now.

I was including Davis in the Sacramento market as well. The Sacramento area is a good fit for the WAC, especially if they want to get into more of a California/West Coast presence. They already have a strong foothold around Sacramento (San Jose, Fresno, Reno) and, with the logical number one choice in Cal Poly, if they were to get both Davis and Sac State, they would have more football DI California schools than even the Pac-10. You keep the talent instate and you get the market revenue from both the central California coast (San Luis Obispo) as well as the Northern Valley (Sacramento).

Like it or not, money is behind all these moves. Money is why Missouri wants to leave the Big 12. Money is why Rutgers is being mentioned at all. Money is why the Pac-10 has been looking at the Salt Lake and Denver areas (and now, the rumor is Texas). If the WAC were to lose the Boise market, would they really choose Fargo or Missoula over Sacramento? Even during this dominance of Montana in the Big Sky, look at who left (Boise State, Nevada) and who stayed (Montana). Laugh all you want but potential revenue wins over performance.

[txstatebobcat]

I think Montana has a better football program than any school in the WAC, except for maybe Boise St. North Dakota State isn't that far behind UM either. With that said there needs to be a commitment to moving to FBS and I just don't see it with either school, at least not for this round of realignment.

In other words, instead of arguing whether to stay or go, Montana needs to be announcing which sports they will be adding, and also announce the building of the necessary infrastructure for both sports. As well as finding the money for 44 more scholarships (22 football and 22 women's sports). All this takes time (several years probably), and time is running out for this round of realignment.


I don't know much about North Dakota State except that they have a great football program and that they play in a dome that fits less than 20,000. The WAC took Idaho (dome sits 17,000) because they needed a warm body to complete the conference and not because they wanted the Vandals. While I think that NDSU has a better football than Idaho, I just don't see them going to the WAC due to geography and the fact that the WAC has more options. The only way I see NDSU in the WAC is if they get a stadium fitting 25,000+, and this is probably several years down the line.

[Saint3333]

How about how long before the FCS joins the FBS and NCAA D1 football looks like D1 basketball?

Looks to me as if it's going in the other direction. If the Big Conferences go to 16 teams each (PAC-10, Big Ten, SEC, ACC/Big East) they may break off from the NCAA for football leaving the non-BCS FBS schools merging with the better conferences in the FCS.

Could there be three tiers in division one?

[txstatebobcat]

Looks to me as if it's going in the other direction. If the Big Conferences go to 16 teams each (PAC-10, Big Ten, SEC, ACC/Big East) they may break off from the NCAA for football leaving the non-BCS FBS schools merging with the better conferences in the FCS.

Could there be three tiers in division one?

Personally I would love the idea of combining the BCS rejects with the rest of FCS. Although I wonder how many of the BCS rejects would just drop football rather than mingle with FCS schools.

[darell1976]

Looks to me as if it's going in the other direction. If the Big Conferences go to 16 teams each (PAC-10, Big Ten, SEC, ACC/Big East) they may break off from the NCAA for football leaving the non-BCS FBS schools merging with the better conferences in the FCS.

Could there be three tiers in division one?

I think that could be a possibility with No playoff system really in the current FBS, you could have a possible playoff within the Superconferences, and maybe a playoff with the "new" FBS, and then the current playoff with the FCS. So it would look like this 1. FSC (Football Super Conference) 2. FBS (Football Bowl Subdivision) 3. FCS (Football Championship Subdivision).

[darell1976]

I think Montana has a better football program than any school in the WAC, except for maybe Boise St. North Dakota State isn't that far behind UM either. With that said there needs to be a commitment to moving to FBS and I just don't see it with either school, at least not for this round of realignment.

In other words, instead of arguing whether to stay or go, Montana needs to be announcing which sports they will be adding, and also announce the building of the necessary infrastructure for both sports. As well as finding the money for 44 more scholarships (22 football and 22 women's sports). All this takes time (several years probably), and time is running out for this round of realignment.


I don't know much about North Dakota State except that they have a great football program and that they play in a dome that fits less than 20,000. The WAC took Idaho (dome sits 17,000) because they needed a warm body to complete the conference and not because they wanted the Vandals. While I think that NDSU has a better football than Idaho, I just don't see them going to the WAC due to geography and the fact that the WAC has more options. The only way I see NDSU in the WAC is if they get a stadium fitting 25,000+, and this is probably several years down the line.

What is the requirement for attendance in the FBS? I thought it was 15,000. If so NDSU has no problem with that they sellout practically every game around 19,000.

[FargoBison]

I was including Davis in the Sacramento market as well. The Sacramento area is a good fit for the WAC, especially if they want to get into more of a California/West Coast presence. They already have a strong foothold around Sacramento (San Jose, Fresno, Reno) and, with the logical number one choice in Cal Poly, if they were to get both Davis and Sac State, they would have more football DI California schools than even the Pac-10. You keep the talent instate and you get the market revenue from both the central California coast (San Luis Obispo) as well as the Northern Valley (Sacramento).

Like it or not, money is behind all these moves. Money is why Missouri wants to leave the Big 12. Money is why Rutgers is being mentioned at all. Money is why the Pac-10 has been looking at the Salt Lake and Denver areas (and now, the rumor is Texas). If the WAC were to lose the Boise market, would they really choose Fargo or Missoula over Sacramento? Even during this dominance of Montana in the Big Sky, look at who left (Boise State, Nevada) and who stayed (Montana). Laugh all you want but potential revenue wins over performance.

Only UC Davis is the right fit form the Sacramento market, Sac State is not academically up to par with other WAC schools and honestly I am being nice in wording it that way. PSU is closer, as is Texas State. Remember presidents aren't going to just add some school because of their market, for many they are also adding schools with a decent academic profile and that are well supported.

This is gets more and more true as you move up the conference totem pole, the Big 10 is moving into bigger markets but at the same time they are adding schools that are the right fit with their membership. With Boise State gone the majority of WAC schools are flagships, land grants and decently sized research universities. Remember who votes for expansion, the Presidents.

[LakesBison]

"Wouldn't history play a part in inviting a team to a FBS conference. NDSU does not have the history in D1 only a D2 powerhouse." DARREL

maybe you were sleeping in 2006 & 2007 when NDSU was #1 in the FCS and beat 3 FBS teams, get back to us when you beat a FBS team, let alone a NAIA team at home.


NDSU has softball, volleyball, track, basketball teams that would compete day 1 with all of the WAC. Football would be top tier in the WAC. Baseball has an amazing stadium and hopefully an upswing soon.

[darell1976]

"Wouldn't history play a part in inviting a team to a FBS conference. NDSU does not have the history in D1 only a D2 powerhouse." DARREL

maybe you were sleeping in 2006 & 2007 when NDSU was #1 in the FCS and beat 3 FBS teams, get back to us when you beat a FBS team, let alone a NAIA team at home.

NDSU has softball, volleyball, track, basketball teams that would compete day 1 with all of the WAC. Football would be top tier in the WAC. Baseball has an amazing stadium and hopefully an upswing soon.

2 years of being at the top during a transition period but 0-0 in the playoffs since being playoff eligible and won 9 games in those 2 years. As for other teams yes your baseball stadium (Newman Outdoor Field) great stadium but how has NDSU done in baseball (wins-losses-playoff apperances). But back to football NDSU is a newbie in the FCS would they be a fit in the FBS this soon compared to Montana who has been in the FCS (D-IAA) for how many decades including playoff appearances and a national title. I would think WAC teams would look for a competitive team not another Indiana St. (sorry Sycamores).

PS Lakes: Your opponets in '06 had a winning % of .460 (including a 5-6 D2 team), with the FBS (Ball St. 5-7), and in '07 .384 (including FBS Minn 1-11, Cent. Mich 8-6, and 2 teams that went 0-11. Not that impressive.

[NDB]

don't be a dumba$$, darell.

rule one of this whole realignment process is that the record of a team isn't going to make or break their conference affiliation. Boise could be five team repeating national champion in football and basketball - they still aren't getting into the PAC-10 because they are not of the right academic pedigree.

The CEO's at 'have institutions' who make decisions are looking at two things - institutional stature and $$$. The commissioners of have-not conferences are looking at stability at the best and survival at the worst.

There isn't a single FCS team within a hundred miles of having the institutional stature and the $$$ (especially the later) to appeal to have schools. There are a couple of schools that can serve as quality members in second rate FBS conferences. Montana is the only one in the west, imo.

But if things go bat sh#t crazy, the WAC may be looking for warm bodies. If and when that happens a second rung of schools become appealing. And nobody, I repeat nobody, except for dumba$$ fans, are going to give a hoot that a school went 3-8 in football the previous year if they bring stability.

[txstatebobcat]

What is the requirement for attendance in the FBS? I thought it was 15,000. If so NDSU has no problem with that they sellout practically every game around 19,000.


Yes, 15,000/game is the requirement and you guys got that covered already. The problem comes in that the WAC will have to expand its footprint if it accepts NDSU and that's a tough pill to swallow for current WAC members. This means NDSU would have to bring a lot to the table (by this I mean either big improvement in TV money or some sort of subsidizing travel) as far as money making opportunities to make up for the distance and at this time I just don't see it.

[darell1976]

Yes, 15,000/game is the requirement and you guys got that covered already. The problem comes in that the WAC will have to expand its footprint if it accepts NDSU and that's a tough pill to swallow for current WAC members. This means NDSU would have to bring a lot to the table (by this I mean either big improvement in TV money or some sort of subsidizing travel) as far as money making opportunities to make up for the distance and at this time I just don't see it.

They would need a good tv deal like UND cut with Fox College Sports.

[UNIFanSince1983]

Yes, 15,000/game is the requirement and you guys got that covered already. The problem comes in that the WAC will have to expand its footprint if it accepts NDSU and that's a tough pill to swallow for current WAC members. This means NDSU would have to bring a lot to the table (by this I mean either big improvement in TV money or some sort of subsidizing travel) as far as money making opportunities to make up for the distance and at this time I just don't see it.

Yeah I think the WAC is looking to get rid LA Tech already. They don't like going that far. If they can't get rid of them I do not see NDSU being a real possibility that would just cost too much travel for lots of those teams. I mean teams like San Diego State, Fresno State and San Jose State flying all the way to Fargo. When these teams also may have to fly to LA Tech, and Hawaii the same year. I just don't think that is feasible in it's current state. However, if we end up with 4 or 5 super conferences it could happen.

[NDB]

Yes, 15,000/game is the requirement and you guys got that covered already. The problem comes in that the WAC will have to expand its footprint if it accepts NDSU and that's a tough pill to swallow for current WAC members. This means NDSU would have to bring a lot to the table (by this I mean either big improvement in TV money or some sort of subsidizing travel) as far as money making opportunities to make up for the distance and at this time I just don't see it.

?

No FCS brings tv money to the table. None. Zero. Zilch.

They bring content, but revenues are not much greater than production costs for all but maybe a couple of games a year.

Travel to North Dakota is an absolute pain in the butt. But it's as easy to get to as pretty much every other school in the west that isn't located by a hub (ie 2 hour flight to denver or salt lake city, 2 hour layover, 2 hour flight to destination).

[NDB]

I was including Davis in the Sacramento market as well. The Sacramento area is a good fit for the WAC, especially if they want to get into more of a California/West Coast presence. They already have a strong foothold around Sacramento (San Jose, Fresno, Reno) and, with the logical number one choice in Cal Poly, if they were to get both Davis and Sac State, they would have more football DI California schools than even the Pac-10. You keep the talent instate and you get the market revenue from both the central California coast (San Luis Obispo) as well as the Northern Valley (Sacramento).

Like it or not, money is behind all these moves. Money is why Missouri wants to leave the Big 12. Money is why Rutgers is being mentioned at all. Money is why the Pac-10 has been looking at the Salt Lake and Denver areas (and now, the rumor is Texas). If the WAC were to lose the Boise market, would they really choose Fargo or Missoula over Sacramento? Even during this dominance of Montana in the Big Sky, look at who left (Boise State, Nevada) and who stayed (Montana). Laugh all you want but potential revenue wins over performance.

As if the Aggies, the Hornets, and UNR are going to deliver Sacramento?

As I stated in a previous post, no FCS team delivers real tv revenue. NDSU has a stranglehold on Fargo - which is a whopping 250,000 tv sets. Davis could take over Sacramento, but I doubt it. SLO is a smaller tv market than fargo.

Davis and Poly belong in the WAC of today, but the timing is not right. Their finances suck. And the WAC of tomorrow may be a footnote.

[NDB]

TV sets

Sacramento 1.5 million
Fresno 600k
El Paso 310k
Boise 300k
Reno 270k
Sioux Falls 260k
Fargo 250k
SLO 240k
Missoula 110k
Wyoming 110k
Bozeman 55k

[Green Cookie Monster]

How is the academics any different than at FSU and SJSU?

Sac State is a land grant, space grant campus and has some of the biggest and most respected programs (criminal justice, computer engineering, nursing) in the country. With 29,000 students and over 170K alumni, they must be doing something right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_University,_Sacramento

Not sure how superior NMSU, USU and Boise State (who was a JC 30 yrs. ago) make the WAC comparable to the Ivy League.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Boise State will absolutely not improve the academics of the MVC. They will bring it down.

[NDB]

Sac State is not a land-grant school.

The UC system is the designated land-grant institution in the state of California.

[Houndawg]

"Wouldn't history play a part in inviting a team to a FBS conference. NDSU does not have the history in D1 only a D2 powerhouse." DARREL

maybe you were sleeping in 2006 & 2007 when NDSU was #1 in the FCS and beat 3 FBS teams, get back to us when you beat a FBS team, let alone a NAIA team at home.


NDSU has softball, volleyball, track, basketball teams that would compete day 1 with all of the WAC. Football would be top tier in the WAC. Baseball has an amazing stadium and hopefully an upswing soon.


xrolleyesx xlolx


xnonox Polls don't matter in this division, Herbert. In this division we settle it on the field with playoffs, not polls that reward feasting on patsies. You may have heard rumors of our playoff system - you can tell Bison fans they are true and the playoffs do exist.

From which NDSU has been conspicuously absent

[FargoBison]

How is the academics any different than at FSU and SJSU?

Sac State is a land grant, space grant campus and has some of the biggest and most respected programs (criminal justice, computer engineering, nursing) in the country. With 29,000 students and over 170K alumni, they must be doing something right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_University,_Sacramento

Not sure how superior NMSU, USU and Boise State (who was a JC 30 yrs. ago) make the WAC comparable to the Ivy League.

Boise State academically is not very appealing, they are lucky to have a great football program and be in a decent market that they completely dominate because they are a sizable step behind pretty much every WAC school not name Fresno, San Jose or La Tech academically.

I won't get to deep into academics because some people value some things more than others. That said the WAC is comprised mostly of schools that are land grants or flagship schools that do over $80 million in research annually(which is sizable). Sac State did 4.39 million in research in 2008, it is not a land grant or flagship.

For the record I am not saying Sac State is bad academically but it isn't a fit at all with most of the other WAC schools. They are just different and honestly Sac State doesn't have the athletic tradition of excellence or ownership over a decent sized market that could make a president forget all about the academic side of things.

[MplsBison]

Boise State will absolutely not improve the academics of the WAC. They will bring it down.

Who cares?

The WAC doesn't market itself as an academic powerhouse.

[aggiemba]

Lots of interesting observations here:

Here is the one that probably matters, show me a team (outside of the WAC) that has played WAC teams the most over say the last five years. This is Daivs, we have clearly been on a "try-out" for the WAC, whether we passed or not is still an open question.

[darell1976]

Lots of interesting observations here:

Here is the one that probably matters, show me a team (outside of the WAC) that has played WAC teams the most over say the last five years. This is Daivs, we have clearly been on a "try-out" for the WAC, whether we passed or not is still an open question.

Our tryout starts on Sept. 2nd at Idaho.xlolx

[slostang]

Lots of interesting observations here:

Here is the one that probably matters, show me a team (outside of the WAC) that has played WAC teams the most over say the last five years. This is Daivs, we have clearly been on a "try-out" for the WAC, whether we passed or not is still an open question.

Cal Poly has played San Jose State twice, Idaho and will play Fresno State in 2010.

[NDB]

Lots of interesting observations here:

Here is the one that probably matters, show me a team (outside of the WAC) that has played WAC teams the most over say the last five years. This is Daivs, we have clearly been on a "try-out" for the WAC, whether we passed or not is still an open question.

Good try.

Then NDSU is the best position to be picked up by the Big Ten xconfusedx

[Thundar]

xrolleyesx xlolx


xnonox Polls don't matter in this division, Herbert. In this division we settle it on the field with playoffs, not polls that reward feasting on patsies. You may have heard rumors of our playoff system - you can tell Bison fans they are true and the playoffs do exist.

From which NDSU has been conspicuously absent

Why your hatred for all Bison "Fans"?? Please don't let the idiocy of 1 make you generalize all of us.

as for the WAC LOL, not going to happen anytime soon or at all. I will be totally shocked if anything came to the table soon, but I would support it to the fullest. Personally I would LOVE for a FBS MVFC move I think that conference could easily overtake the WAC.

[MplsBison]

Of the four west-coast, FCS schools the WAC could look at:

UC Davis:

New football stadium but only 10k seating (expandable to 30k).

Solid DI bball facility, 8k seating.

Brings Sac market

(also are AAU school and land-grant, which would appeal to NM St, Utah St, Nevada, Idaho and Hawaii presidents)


Sac State:

Football facility is built to host major track events, 21k seating

Bball facility is high school level, 1.2k seating

Brings Sac market

(Member of CSU system, same as San Jose St and Fresno St)


Cal Poly:

The new parts of Spanos stadium are top-notch, but the older portions need to be upgraded to match the rest. Current seating is only 11k, but I think it can be upgraded to 20k?

Bball facility is slightly above high school level, 3k seating.

Brings SLO market (minor market)

(Member of CSU system, same as San Jose St and Fresno St)


Portland State:

Football will play in renovated PGE park for MLS soccer, top capacity ~22k.

BBall plays in Stott center, high school level with ~1.5k seating.

Brings Portland market.





It's tough to look at those four as they exist now and see the clear cut winner. However, when you look at all the factors combined, it seems to me that UC Davis rises to the top for a few reasons:

- Football stadium is expandable to 30k, team has historically been a winner at DII level so there is some good support for the program, thus a FBS winner could draw well in Sac

- Only one of the schools with a legit DI bball facility (Sac St and Portland St can argue that they can play in the NBA arena, but I don't buy this as a legitimate long term solution)

- Best research and also land grant, which will win over some of the WAC presidents

[slostang]

Cal Poly's football stadium has plans to expand to 25,000.

[holycrossC]

The WAC is by all accounts on the verge of losing Boise State. With that real possiblility talk of a replacement, or replacements, has started.

NDSU has now officially been mentioned as a possible new WAC member:



http://www.examiner.com/x-30425-College-Football-Examiner~y2010m6d2-Boise-State-Mountain-West-union-coming-soon

This comes with a dose of surprise but it is not unexpected. NDSU has had as its long-term goal full membership in an FBS all sports conference. The State of North Dakota is ripe for this type of move. The stadium we have now is small but average attendance is an FBS acceptable 18,000. Things seem to be working out in a way that would not only provide for a great new basketball arena but also a new football stadium. The football stadium wont be talked about unless an FBS all sports conference invite becomes a more realistic probability.

Its my belief that NDSU is actively seeking this type of invite. Not publicly of course but behind the scenes. The WAC would mean leaving the Summit and MVFC. The replacement in those conferences would of course be UND.

The way the basketball arena is being worked out could in the end give NDSU a new football stadium. The Fabulous Fargo Dome would be just enough to get us in but membership in an all sports FBS football conference would be the catalyst to get a new, much large football stadium with the still untouched funds under the Dome Authorities control. The FFD would probably become a hockey arena. NDSU hockey? The WCHA is going to need some members soon.

This is the first mention we have had in the "official" FBS talk. It wont be the last. I truly hope this could work out for NDSU.

But that would require Montana to play up, and they just don't do that.

[MplsBison]

Cal Poly's football stadium has plans to expand to 25,000.

For selfish reasons I'd like the WAC to invite Davis and/or Poly.

1) I like to see the former GWFC rivals do well and this type of an invite would surely spur investment in both facilities as well as the athletic department overall.

Although, I guess if both Davis and Poly leave then that does leave the SUU football program basically screwed. I wish they could play football in the Big Sky, even if they stayed members of the Summit (but full Big Sky membership is the best option for them).

2) I don't want to give UND any chance at Big Sky membership because (selfishly) I want them in the Summit and MVFC with NDSU.

[slostang]

For selfish reasons I'd like the WAC to invite Davis and/or Poly.

1) I like to see the former GWFC rivals do well and this type of an invite would surely spur investment in both facilities as well as the athletic department overall.

Although, I guess if both Davis and Poly leave then that does leave the SUU football program basically screwed. I wish they could play football in the Big Sky, even if they stayed members of the Summit (but full Big Sky membership is the best option for them).

2) I don't want to give UND any chance at Big Sky membership because (selfishly) I want them in the Summit and MVFC with NDSU.

Mpls, we had fun going back and forth over the years, but I also pull for our old conference mates NDSU and SDSU.

[MplsBison]

I feel stupid for not realizing this before posting on this thread, but it looks like the NCAA bylaws require that a team average 15k in actual or paid attendance over a rolling two year period to be in FBS.

None of the four (SacSt, Davis, Poly, PSU) average that many fans and only Sac and Portland are even capable of averaging that many in the current stadiums, as they exist now.


So I wonder what effect that has? I think if the WAC was serious about making an offer to Davis or Poly, then the football stadiums would quickly be upgraded to meet the 15k min seating requirements. And I think both are capable of getting that many fans out...but I wonder if the NCAA would require them to already be meeting that requirement before moving up? Or would they give them a break due to special circumstances?


Why even have that rule?

If a school is capable and willing to meet the other rules set by the NCAA for FBS membership (16 varsity sports min (6 male min, 8 female min), 200 grants-in-aid for athletes, min of 90% of the max grants-in-aid for football) and there is an established FBS conference that wants to invite them (thus rendering the scheduling requirements null) then why should they have to meet any minimum attendance requirements?

[NDB]

and let's not forget that there is moratorium on moves.

right now - nobody is going anywhere.

but who's to say the rules won't change in a year or two.

my guess is that even if all hell breaks lose in FBS, there aren't going to be that many openings, if any.

[NoCoDanny]

I think there are a dozen schools in CA and TX that will go into the WAC before ND State.

[NDB]

That's funny.

Even if there wasn't a moratorium, there isn't a single school in California or Texas that would qualify.

[darell1976]

I feel stupid for not realizing this before posting on this thread, but it looks like the NCAA bylaws require that a team average 15k in actual or paid attendance over a rolling two year period to be in FBS.

None of the four (SacSt, Davis, Poly, PSU) average that many fans and only Sac and Portland are even capable of averaging that many in the current stadiums, as they exist now.


So I wonder what effect that has? I think if the WAC was serious about making an offer to Davis or Poly, then the football stadiums would quickly be upgraded to meet the 15k min seating requirements. And I think both are capable of getting that many fans out...but I wonder if the NCAA would require them to already be meeting that requirement before moving up? Or would they give them a break due to special circumstances?


Why even have that rule?

If a school is capable and willing to meet the other rules set by the NCAA for FBS membership (16 varsity sports min (6 male min, 8 female min), 200 grants-in-aid for athletes, min of 90% of the max grants-in-aid for football) and there is an established FBS conference that wants to invite them (thus rendering the scheduling requirements null) then why should they have to meet any minimum attendance requirements?

Just ask some of the MAC teams that fall below this minimum like Ball St., Bowling Green, Eastern Michigan (avg attendance 5016!!!) Miami (OH), N. ILL. Others are Rice, W. Kentucky, FIU, Idaho. The Mac as a whole averaged 15,317 in 2009 the worst in the FBS... 11 FCS teams did better than the 15,000 minimum including Montana and NDSU. Both UC Davis and Cal Poly avg around 9900 so that a good start too. I say maybe some MAC schools need to go down to the FCS if they can't meet these requirements.

http://www2.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/94f3dd004181e04f987bd8734e8667f6/Awide_FB+ATT+lists.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=94f3dd004181e04f987bd8734e8667f6

[slostang]

Part of an WAC invite to Cal Poly or UC Davis would come with the stipulation that they increase the size of their stadiums.

[MplsBison]

and let's not forget that there is moratorium on moves.

right now - nobody is going anywhere.

but who's to say the rules won't change in a year or two.

my guess is that even if all hell breaks lose in FBS, there aren't going to be that many openings, if any.

Well we know there is going to be an opening in the WAC for a FBS school for sure. Boise is going to the MWC.

I think all we're going to see after the moratorium is lifted is that new FBS schools have to be invited by an established FBS conference and there's going to be a big fee (millions) to move-up.

But otherwise, I don't see any of the other requirements going away, although the min attendance thing should in my opinion.

[MplsBison]

Just ask some of the MAC teams that fall below this minimum like Ball St., Bowling Green, Eastern Michigan (avg attendance 5016!!!) Miami (OH), N. ILL. Others are Rice, W. Kentucky, FIU, Idaho. The Mac as a whole averaged 15,317 in 2009 the worst in the FBS... 11 FCS teams did better than the 15,000 minimum including Montana and NDSU. Both UC Davis and Cal Poly avg around 9900 so that a good start too. I say maybe some MAC schools need to go down to the FCS if they can't meet these requirements.

http://www2.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/94f3dd004181e04f987bd8734e8667f6/Awide_FB+ATT+lists.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=94f3dd004181e04f987bd8734e8667f6

Why?

Like I already asked, if they can meet the requirements for the number of sports sponsored and the number of scholarships given out...why does the NCAA care how many fans come to the games?

[MplsBison]

Part of an WAC invite to Cal Poly or UC Davis would come with the stipulation that they increase the size of their stadiums.

They'd have to for sure.


Question is, how quickly could Poly or Davis raise the funds needed to expand the stadiums?

[slostang]

They'd have to for sure.


Question is, how quickly could Poly or Davis raise the funds needed to expand the stadiums?

The fact that all three are starting to express public interest tells me they think they can. My guess is they are hitting up potential big donars now to see if it is possible. I am sure they all have at least conceptual drawings and are busy trying to drum up support behind the scene.

[darell1976]

Why?

Like I already asked, if they can meet the requirements for the number of sports sponsored and the number of scholarships given out...why does the NCAA care how many fans come to the games?

Its their rule.

[NDB]

The fact that all three are starting to express public interest tells me they think they can. My guess is they are hitting up potential big donars now to see if it is possible. I am sure they all have at least conceptual drawings and are busy trying to drum up support behind the scene.

the current rule require butts in seats.

my guess is (that poly isn't lead by a bunch of nimrods and) that they have had plans for a stadium with 20,000+ seats for a decade and that they've been working donors since the school was established.

[Green Laser]

Of the four west-coast, FCS schools the WAC could look at:

UC Davis:

New football stadium but only 10k seating (expandable to 30k).

Solid DI bball facility, 8k seating.

Brings Sac market

(also are AAU school and land-grant, which would appeal to NM St, Utah St, Nevada, Idaho and Hawaii presidents)


Sac State:

Football facility is built to host major track events, 21k seating

Bball facility is high school level, 1.2k seating

Brings Sac market

(Member of CSU system, same as San Jose St and Fresno St)


Cal Poly:

The new parts of Spanos stadium are top-notch, but the older portions need to be upgraded to match the rest. Current seating is only 11k, but I think it can be upgraded to 20k?

Bball facility is slightly above high school level, 3k seating.

Brings SLO market (minor market)

(Member of CSU system, same as San Jose St and Fresno St)


Portland State:

Football will play in renovated PGE park for MLS soccer, top capacity ~22k.

BBall plays in Stott center, high school level with ~1.5k seating.

Brings Portland market.





It's tough to look at those four as they exist now and see the clear cut winner. However, when you look at all the factors combined, it seems to me that UC Davis rises to the top for a few reasons:

- Football stadium is expandable to 30k, team has historically been a winner at DII level so there is some good support for the program, thus a FBS winner could draw well in Sac

- Only one of the schools with a legit DI bball facility (Sac St and Portland St can argue that they can play in the NBA arena, but I don't buy this as a legitimate long term solution)

- Best research and also land grant, which will win over some of the WAC presidents


FYI Sac State is already a member of the WAC in two sports, Baseball and Gymnastics, have been for a long time. Our administration and AD seem in favor of at least exploring a move. Hornet Stadium seats over 20,000, our basketball facility is not currently suitable although there are plans for a new on campus arena. Until that is done we would have two possible venues Memorial Auditorium which is about 3 miles from campus and ARCO Arena the home of the Kings, we have used both before.
I am not totally sold on a possible move, it depends on who is left in the WAC.
If Fresno State, Nevada Reno and San Jose State are still there it would be great as all three are within 200 miles of Sacramento. There would be a lot of regional interest! If the leftovers of the WAC were spread out all over the west and southwest it might be better to pass.

[slostang]

the current rule require butts in seats.

my guess is (that poly isn't lead by a bunch of nimrods and) that they have had plans for a stadium with 20,000+ seats for a decade and that they've been working donors since the school was established.

True, but the possibly of moving up has never been this close before. As coach Walsh said in today's Telegram Tribune article, "the window will open up and the window will close, we better be ready with our answer".

[Thundar]

True, but the possibly of moving up has never been this close before. As coach Walsh said in today's Telegram Tribune article, "the window will open up and the window will close, we better be ready with our answer".


I wonder what the timeline would be to get facilities up to par or at least groundbroken on construction etc... if a invite was extended to any FCS school in the west?

NDSU would certainly need the BBall facility to be a DONE deal. Poly or UC-Davis the FB stadiums, Montana??? what if anything would they need updated

[LakesBison]

MONTANA and NDSU to the NEW BIG 12 !!! thats what this THREAD should be called now!

http://www.collegefootballcafeteria.com/analysis/could-conference-expansion-bump-any-fcs-schools-to-fbs/?wpc=dlc#comment-592

So if I had to make a prediction, here’s how I would see things going. The Big Ten is making the first move in this expansion stuff, hands down. When they do, everyone else will make their moves. Chances are some of the Big 12 is going to the Big Ten. That means either the Big 12 has all of its teams poached, or they try to stay alive by getting some MWC teams or an FCS team or two. In that instance, its definitely Montana or North Dakota State

[FargoBison]

I wonder what the timeline would be to get facilities up to par or at least groundbroken on construction etc... if a invite was extended to any FCS school in the west?

NDSU would certainly need the BBall facility to be a DONE deal. Poly or UC-Davis the FB stadiums, Montana??? what if anything would they need updated

Montana would need to add two sports to get to 16, don't think we need anything updated though.

[MplsBison]

NDSU sponsors every sport the WAC has except men's and women's tennis and women's gymnastics (most of the WAC schools don't have this either).

We meet the 16 sport minimum and the 8 women's sport minimum (just meet it by using XC, indoor and outdoor track as 3 separate sports).

[JBB]

Lakes, you are right on. This was brought up for speculation some time ago on bsionsports.net. There will be an opportunity for the left over Big 12 schools to add from the FCS. There are a lot of choices for them but NDSU certainly has to be considered. To see them on the list is exciting. I like the refurbished Big 12 more than the WAC because geographically its better and these schools are neighbors in many senses of the word. i know this is a terribly arrogant post but please dont hold it against all the "good" NDSU fans.

[darell1976]

Lakes, you are right on. This was brought up for speculation some time ago on bsionsports.net. There will be an opportunity for the left over Big 12 schools to add from the FCS. There are a lot of choices for them but NDSU certainly has to be considered. To see them on the list is exciting. I like the refurbished Big 12 more than the WAC because geographically its better and these schools are neighbors in many senses of the word. i know this is a terribly arrogant post but please dont hold it against all the "good" NDSU fans.

You do know that is a list of teams that average over 15,000 not a list of teams to be considered for FBS membership into the Big 12.

[F'N Hawks]

Lakes, you are right on. This was brought up for speculation some time ago on bsionsports.net. There will be an opportunity for the left over Big 12 schools to add from the FCS. There are a lot of choices for them but NDSU certainly has to be considered. To see them on the list is exciting. I like the refurbished Big 12 more than the WAC because geographically its better and these schools are neighbors in many senses of the word. i know this is a terribly arrogant post but please dont hold it against all the "good" NDSU fans.

So NDSU went from being on the WAC's short list to being on the Big 12's list of potential schools. Really?

Could we get a link to these lists? xrolleyesx

[LakesBison]

there are links in this thread, go back and find them.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

if PAC 10 and BIG 10 become PAC 16 and BIG 16.


WAC 16.

Wac East
Iowa St, Kansas, K State, Missouri, Colorado, Montana, NDSU, Idaho.(wyoming/col. st maybe if missouri/colorado are out)

Wac West
Hawaii, New mexico St, Fresno, Nevada, San Jose State, Utah State, Baylor.

[F'N Hawks]

So those two articles, one by a 22 year old and another by "Sloppy Joe" are all the information we need. Got it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So those two articles, one by a 22 year old and another by "Sloppy Joe" are all the information we need. Got it.

xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

Serious rep points!!!

[Silenoz]

Anybody that thinks an FCS team is joining the Big 12 is nuts

[FargoBison]

This Big 12 idea is crazy. Joining with some of the WAC could have some potential but NDSU will never be in a conference with Kansas.

Maybe if Kansas got into the Big 10 and left Kansas State and Iowa State something could be cobbled together. But I don't see K-State and KU seperating and if the Big 12 blows up they will cobble together a conference with Big East, CUSA, and MWC schools.

[JBB]

Not likely, but if you are an NDSU fan in favor of this kind of move its an option that has to be considered. They all look out of reach if you are being serious about it. In time a situation like this might look better. Its a nice thought and a good goal for our program to mature to the point where something like this is possible.

You either want to talk about and what it would take or not? For sure it would take a new stadium. Right now I think there is a lot of good football left in the FFD!

[NDB]

This Big 12 idea is crazy. Joining with some of the WAC could have some potential but NDSU will never be in a conference with Kansas.

Maybe if Kansas got into the Big 10 and left Kansas State and Iowa State something could be cobbled together. But I don't see K-State and KU seperating and if the Big 12 blows up they will cobble together a conference with Big East, CUSA, and MWC schools.

I'll one up you and say the Big 12 thing is completely insane.

But a year ago I bet the Jayhawks didn't think they were headed into a conference with San Diego State.

[LakesBison]

Wac attack!!! Ndsu!!! Well looks like the WAC needs a new member, as UTSA has approval to accept a CUSA invite


lots of NDSU academic peers in the WAC.

NDSU's basketball, track, volleyball, softball, would be in the top half of the WAC, the football team would get there quickly.

[TheBisonator]

Wac attack!!! Ndsu!!! Well looks like the WAC needs a new member, as UTSA has approval to accept a CUSA invite


lots of NDSU academic peers in the WAC.

NDSU's basketball, track, volleyball, softball, would be in the top half of the WAC, the football team would get there quickly.

DUDE, there's almost NO SCHOOLS in the WAC!!! Just end this nonsense already!!!!

I'm all for NDSU formulating an FBS study in the next few years just in case, but this WAC bullcrap has to STOP!!!!

[ursus arctos horribilis]

DUDE, there's almost NO SCHOOLS in the WAC!!! Just end this nonsense already!!!!

I'm all for NDSU formulating an FBS study in the next few years just in case, but this WAC bullcrap has to STOP!!!!

He's delusional & myopic. Let him twist in that cavalcade of lunacy all by himself Nator.

[Cocky]

The WAC will survive as the EAC eastern Athletic Conference...or fold.

[Hammerhead]

The WAC seems kind of iffy for any school. Every original member will be gone next year and only 2 schools in the next academic year have been members for more than 7 years.

[frozennorth]

Never join the wac, the conference is effectively dead. wouldn't be surprised to see USU in the MWC soon, and idaho in the BSC

[darell1976]

Never join the wac, the conference is effectively dead. wouldn't be surprised to see USU in the MWC soon, and idaho in the BSC

Who was the last FBS to go back to the FCS?

[LakesBison]

^^ I cant read that, but what could you possibly add to this discussion, stay out and worry about,your naia losing team

[nwFL Griz]

There are talks going around that USU and SJSU are going to the MWC, with LaTech and N. Texas going to CUSA along with UTSA. That would leave NMSU, Idaho and Texas St left in the WAC. There's almost no way the WAC will be able to survive this.

[El Gato]

There are talks going around that USU and SJSU are going to the MWC, with LaTech and N. Texas going to CUSA along with UTSA. That would leave NMSU, Idaho and Texas St left in the WAC. There's almost no way the WAC will be able to survive this.

Texas State going to the Sunbelt per Jack at bobcatreport, and LaTech to CUSA not MWC. Either way the WAC will be left with NMSU and Idaho. The conference is effectively dead.

[clenz]

Hearing that TSU is looking at going Sun Belt.


I wonder if they decision to move FBS would have been different if they'd known that'd be the outcome at TSU.

[NDB]

Texas State going to the Sunbelt per Jack at bobcatreport, and LaTech to CUSA not MWC. Either way the WAC will be left with NMSU and Idaho. The conference is effectively dead.


NDSU needs to join NOW!!!

[dgtw]

So what will become of New Mexico State and Idaho? Will the MWC take them in just to be nice?

[FargoBison]

So what will become of New Mexico State and Idaho? Will the MWC take them in just to be nice?

Would Sun Belt take in NMSU? Regardless I think Idaho is screwed but honestly they are better off in the FCS.

[NDB]

So what will become of New Mexico State and Idaho? Will the MWC take them in just to be nice?

When things in college athletics don't go our way we sue the NCAA.

[darell1976]

There are talks going around that USU and SJSU are going to the MWC, with LaTech and N. Texas going to CUSA along with UTSA. That would leave NMSU, Idaho and Texas St left in the WAC. There's almost no way the WAC will be able to survive this.

This is why they wanted Montana to join very badly to stabilize their conference, as they knew if Montana were to go MSU wouldn't be too far behind. Good move by Montana staying put.

[TheRevSFA]

Why do you think benson left? Dead *** conference

[Tod]

NMSU and Idaho should both be FCS, anyway. BSC could end up with 15 teams. Doubt it, though.

[DFW HOYA]

Who was the last FBS to go back to the FCS?

Villanova.

[superman7515]

Villanova.

Florida A&M 2004? One season out of FCS as an independent and then right back to the MEAC.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Why do you think benson left? Dead *** conference

To think. Folks laughed at me when I said WAC schools might be playing FCS ball in the future.

[frozennorth]

NMSU and Idaho should both be FCS, anyway. BSC could end up with 15 teams. Doubt it, though.

good god

[ursus arctos horribilis]

good god

Pretty unlikely but it would make the BSC a fairly marketable conference for better TV deals and so forth I think. Could easily split into two divisions and even though there is no chance of any sort of conference championship it could be a way to also really cut down the travel expenses.

[bobcathpdevil56]

Pretty unlikely but it would make the BSC a fairly marketable conference for better TV deals and so forth I think. Could easily split into two divisions and even though there is no chance of any sort of conference championship it could be a way to also really cut down the travel expenses.
And increase playoff teams

[Tod]

Pretty unlikely but it would make the BSC a fairly marketable conference for better TV deals and so forth I think. Could easily split into two divisions and even though there is no chance of any sort of conference championship it could be a way to also really cut down the travel expenses.

If the BSC (or any other) had an even number of teams in two divisions, would it not work to have a rule that all conf. teams schedule a conf. opponent for the final week, then use the first 10 games to determine the champ game the final week of the regular season? The two teams they were scheduled to play would play each other, home field determined by record, head-to-head, etc. Or, is that against the rules/stupid?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

If the BSC (or any other) had an even number of teams in two divisions, would it not work to have a rule that all conf. teams schedule a conf. opponent for the final week, then use the first 10 games to determine the champ game the final week of the regular season? The two teams they were scheduled to play would play each other, home field determined by record, head-to-head, etc. Or, is that against the rules/stupid?

No, you can't have any sort of a conference championship game and still be eligible for the playoffs. If it were allowed your layout would be cool but it is not.

[frozennorth]

Pretty unlikely but it would make the BSC a fairly marketable conference for better TV deals and so forth I think. Could easily split into two divisions and even though there is no chance of any sort of conference championship it could be a way to also really cut down the travel expenses.

i'm more thinking fiery implosions.

[Sycamore51]

I have the answer to this whole problem, and I don't think either one of these schools should move up.

New Mexico St will get a MWC bid at some point, if not they should go indy.

Idaho should go FCS and try to get in with the Big Sky, it is a natural fit. Bring North Dakota into a MVFC/Summit deal like the other Dakota schools and have 2 divisions, try to get Murray State in all MVC sports and Bob's your uncle problem solved.
East: US, ILST, SIU, YSU, WIU, Murray
West: 4 Dakotas, UNI, MoSt

Each school plays the 5 other schools in their division and rotates 3 from the other each year. That would give 8 conference games.

TxSt will be Sun Belt

[clenz]

no

[Sycamore51]

I think Murray would be a perfect fit for the MVC. It makes perfect sense, maybe a straight trade, UE for Murray. Bring in Murray and you would need to probably add another football school. Murray is a great basketball school with great academics.

[AmsterBison]

Why the obsession with the WAC from some quarters. There are plenty of other conferences for NDSU to join besides the WAC. Heck, somebody compiled a list of them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_college_football_conferences

Seriously: I really like the Missouri Valley for football and think that NDSU can help take the Summit to a higher level (that's our conference for other sports.)

[clenz]

I'm completely against bringing anyone in without anyone leaving....unless it's Butler and SLU as a package deal....which won't happen. Reports today have Butler headed to the A10 in 13/14.


I don't like a basketball league of more than 10....it doesn't allow for the "perfect" conference schedule. I'd like to have Murray State or SLU in case we do lose someone to an FBS football move causing their entire department going along with it.

Murray State, I would believe, would be all over the jump. They could move football as well.

SLU, well they seem to want nothing to do with the MVC.


As for the MVFC...honestly, I just want to dump YSU. They don't fit the footprint at all.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind dropping NDSU either (if they read this it will piss them off, because they think they should be in line for an MVC invite as well....won't happen because the MVC is very much about their footprint size)

The MVC is a lot tougher to manage than the MVFC right now, I'd believe.

With all that said, my "ideal" MVC/MVFC conferences, as of right now (assuming Butler is A10, which also takes out SLU as a possible member more than likely)....I reserve the right to change it as soon as I hit post reply....


MVC:
Northern Iowa
Creighton
Wichita State
Southern Illinois
Murray State
Illinois State
Drake
Missouri State
Murray State
Indiana State

I took Indiana State over SLU only because of the football tie in we'd lose if we didn't have them in the MVC, and the Butler issue I brought up earlier.



I like where the MVFC is right now....but YSU needs to go. WAY too far outside the footprint. If some of the CAA moves happen, I hope they go there.

MVFC:
Northern Iowa
Southern Illinois
Murray State
Indiana State
South Dakota
South Dakota State
Missouri State
Eastern Illinois
Drake



Honestly, I'd like to see Wichita State bring football back...but I firmly believe if they do that they are headed to CUSA/MWC if they do. They want to move out of the MVC badly because they feel they are above it, but without football there's no home for them. I only want Drake if they are willing to invest in the football program, and bring it up to respecatbility. I don't think that will happen any time soon, so they could be replaced by NDSU.

[AmsterBison]

Honestly, I wouldn't mind dropping NDSU either

I'm not at all surprised that you would want to drop NDSU from the Missouri Valley. Must really sting.

[Sycamore51]

Clenz, I think you and I are about on the same path here. I would love see SLU and Buttlicker in the MVC, if no othe reason than to have a home and home against those rich punks from Indy every year. I'd also like to see a straight swop, Murray for UE. I think Murray would be better in every area except maybe soccer. I'm surprised that there hasn't been much talk about YSU to the CAA. That would bring a traditional football power to the CAA and give YSU a better geographical fit. I'm not sure about EIU however unless they make facility upgrades. The highschool that I used to coach for had a bigger gym I think than EIU does. It would be nice to have another all around school, but I'm not sure SEMO wouldn't be better.

[clenz]

I don't like the big footprint...It has nothing to do with anything message board related.

Heck...if it makes you feel better drop all the Dakota schools add WIU for SDSU, SEMO for USD,

[NDB]

Swapping Drake for NDSU?

Wow. Sounds like something Farley would say.

[clenz]

Clenz, I think you and I are about on the same path here. I would love see SLU and Buttlicker in the MVC, if no othe reason than to have a home and home against those rich punks from Indy every year. I'd also like to see a straight swop, Murray for UE. I think Murray would be better in every area except maybe soccer. I'm surprised that there hasn't been much talk about YSU to the CAA. That would bring a traditional football power to the CAA and give YSU a better geographical fit. I'm not sure about EIU however unless they make facility upgrades. The highschool that I used to coach for had a bigger gym I think than EIU does. It would be nice to have another all around school, but I'm not sure SEMO wouldn't be better.Facility improvements yes....the MVC and MVFC have great facilities...but an ISUB fan talking about football stadiums needing upgrades? Really? lol

[clenz]

Swapping Drake for NDSU?

Wow. Sounds like something Farley would say.

You aren't long for the FCS anyway....so I've been lead to believe. You will be whatever is left of the WAC/MWC sooner rather than later....

[Sycamore51]

Facility improvements yes....the MVC and MVFC have great facilities...but an ISUB fan talking about football stadiums needing upgrades? Really? lol

We don't need a football stadium upgrade, we need a new stadium. In the last 3 years we've added a new video board, new turf, and new field house addition, new practice field, and a new weight room but we still need a new stadium. Everything else that we have is up to par with the rest of the league. A new stadium is in the 10 year master plan, but only time will tell if it gets built or not.

[AmsterBison]

You aren't long for the FCS anyway....so I've been lead to believe. You will be whatever is left of the WAC/MWC sooner rather than later....

So is it OK if I judge all UNI fans based on you? I mean, I've already got your measure (luckily I had a micrometer handy) and it would save some time. :)

[clenz]

I'm not basing it off of one person....it seems as though NDSU has the biggest endowments, conquered the FCS already, strongest FCS fan base.


You aren't long for the FCS....that's my honest opinion. The only thing holding you back is the fact you are in freaking Fargo.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I don't like the big footprint...It has nothing to do with anything message board related.

Heck...if it makes you feel better drop all the Dakota schools add WIU for SDSU, SEMO for USD,

There are some schools that aren't nearly as broke that can afford a travel budget. They aren't worried about the footprint.

[MplsBison]

You aren't long for the FCS anyway....so I've been lead to believe. You will be whatever is left of the WAC/MWC sooner rather than later....

Football yes. Especially if we make another deep playoff run this season. They'll be clamoring for the next step. Or at least, they should darn well be.

On the field I think we can compete with Wyoming and Colorado St (will get a chance this season!).


On the hardcourt, diamond and oly sports? Probably not. Especially not with the DII going on low-major DI bball facilities that NDSU has.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Football yes. Especially if we make another deep playoff run this season. They'll be clamoring for the next step. Or at least, they should darn well be.

On the field I think we can compete with Wyoming and Colorado St (will get a chance this season!).


On the hardcourt, diamond and oly sports? Probably not. Especially not with the DII going on low-major DI bball facilities that NDSU has.

yes, another deep playoff run and you and Lakes will be again freaking out about owning FCS, for 3 years. The teams we are talking about here have made deep playoff runs for decades.

[MplsBison]

yes, another deep playoff run and you and Lakes will be again freaking out about owning FCS, for 3 years. The teams we are talking about here have made deep playoff runs for decades.

How many deep playoff runs has Georgia St made?

And yet they're leapfrogging NDSU in national relevance. FBS is more relevant than FCS national champion. Sorry, it's true.

[clenz]

How many deep playoff runs has Georgia St made?

And yet they're leapfrogging NDSU in national relevance. FBS is more relevant than FCS national champion. Sorry, it's true.

Georgia State isn't leapfrogging anyone in National relevance....In the state of Georgia? Sure, but they were already more relevant. The only states that saw a "boost" in relevance of GaSU already had them as more relevant than NDSU.

****, I didn't even know there was a Georgia State until they joined the FCS.....FBS fans still won't even know there is a Georgia State until the buy them as a body bag game.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

How many deep playoff runs has Georgia St made?

And yet they're leapfrogging NDSU in national relevance. FBS is more relevant than FCS national champion. Sorry, it's true.

Georgia State sits in the #11 media market in the United States. NDSU is in the #219 media market. It also has twice as many student and double the endowment. One of these things is not like the other.

[MplsBison]

Georgia State isn't leapfrogging anyone in National relevance....In the state of Georgia? Sure, but they were already more relevant. The only states that saw a "boost" in relevance of GaSU already had them as more relevant than NDSU.

****, I didn't even know there was a Georgia State until they joined the FCS.....FBS fans still won't even know there is a Georgia State until the buy them as a body bag game.

I don't care that you and other fans of FCS will never admit it. I know I'm right. I know what the understanding is of the national media and others who aren't "aware" of FCS football.

[MplsBison]

Georgia State sits in the #11 media market in the United States. NDSU is in the #219 media market. One of these things is not like the other.

That's only the reason that they are going FBS. Not the reason they're leapfrogging. Being FBS is the reason.

If Montana Tech went FBS, they'd be more relevant than NDSU too.


It's too bad that you guys can't see past the field. This stuff really has nothing to do with how well the team plays.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

That's only the reason that they are going FBS. Not the reason they're leapfrogging. Being FBS is the reason.

If Montana Tech went FBS, they'd be more relevant than NDSU too.


It's too bad that you guys can't see past the field. This stuff really has nothing to do with how well the team plays.


You keep saying this relevant word. I'm not sure you know what it means.

[clenz]

If it isn't about how they play on the field how are the all of a sudden more relevant?

People in the world of academia suddenly go "Oh, their football team plays in the FBS division....their academics are now way better and they are now nationally respected more than they were"

Employers across the nation won't go "Oh, you went to a school that had FBS football, you're hired"

This doesn't make any of their other sports more relevant nationally


I'm very confused as to what you are talking about right now.

[Sycamore51]

After the beat down that the Sycamores put on WKU last year and then watching WKU almost win the Sun Belt, I am sure that the MVFC is on par with the the Sun Belt, MAC, and WAC as far as talent and performance goes. That being said, I don't think anybody who follows college football puts the lower level FBS schools above FCS schools. Most people think that SUN BELT, MAC, and WAC schools are DII just like most people think FCS schools are DII. The only reason for making the move should be if you think it is only for a little while and that some real conference will come calling.

[TheRevSFA]

If it isn't about how they play on the field how are the all of a sudden more relevant?

People in the world of academia suddenly go "Oh, their football team plays in the FBS division....their academics are now way better and they are now nationally respected more than they were"

Employers across the nation won't go "Oh, you went to a school that had FBS football, you're hired"

This doesn't make any of their other sports more relevant nationally


I'm very confused as to what you are talking about right now.

Harvard, Yale, and the rest of the Ivies want to know what Mlps is smoking

[clenz]

After the beat down that the Sycamores put on WKU last year and then watching WKU almost win the Sun Belt, I am sure that the MVFC is on par with the the Sun Belt, MAC, and WAC as far as talent and performance goes. That being said, I don't think anybody who follows college football puts the lower level FBS schools above FCS schools. Most people think that SUN BELT, MAC, and WAC schools are DII just like most people think FCS schools are DII. The only reason for making the move should be if you think it is only for a little while and that some real conference will come calling.
The MVFC, Big Sky, CAA, and SoCon are all on par/above the Sun Belt, WAC, and MAC

[Sycamore51]

The MVFC, Big Sky, CAA, and SoCon are all on par/above the Sun Belt, WAC, and MAC

I agree completely. Those conferences have no shot at a national title and he average college football fan couldn't name the school's in those conferences. The MAC plays on ESPN2 every Wednesday night and the average college fan doesn't watch and doesn't care. The only people that watch those games are people like us who already know about all of the schools and conferences and you honestly don't get any added exposure because we all know about the schools anyway. The average fan who would learn something or discover a program is watching survivor and doesn't turn their tv on until Thursday night.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I agree completely. Those conferences have no shot at a national title and he average college football fan couldn't name the school's in those conferences. The MAC plays on ESPN2 every Wednesday night and the average college fan doesn't watch and doesn't care. The only people that watch those games are people like us who already know about all of the schools and conferences and you honestly don't get any added exposure because we all know about the schools anyway. The average fan who would learn something or discover a program is watching survivor and doesn't turn their tv on until Thursday night.

You and I live in pretty much the same part of the country and KNOW that the MAC doesn't matter anywhere outside of those school's towns. Especially here, the only people pulling for Ohio or Akron are the alumni.

[clenz]

You and I live in pretty much the same part of the country and KNOW that the MAC doesn't matter anywhere outside of those school's towns. Especially here, the only people pulling for Ohio or Akron are the alumni.
Exactly this.


Outside of the MWC/CUSA and 6 BCS conferences, everything is exactly the same to anyone outside of fans of those schools/hardcore football fans.

Even then look at how disrespected the CUSA and MWC schools are by the power 6.

If you'd play "FBS or FCS" with the average football/fbs fan I'd be shocked if they finished with over 60% correct....and the ones they get right would likely only be the schools in their area.

[Sycamore51]

You are exactly correct! I think saying that you are North Dakota State, Indiana State, South Dakota, Montana, or any other name with an actual state in it would be a better recruiting tool than saying I play at Troy, Ball State, Bowling Green, or Akron. If you're getting recruited it is better to tell your buddies that you are playing for a state school rather than some school that nobody has ever heard of in a conference that they've never heard of, even if they are technically FBS.

[BisonBacker]

I don't care that you and other fans of FCS will never admit it. I know I'm right. The world is FLAT and you won't convince me otherwise

xlolxxnodx:Dxbowx


xwhistlex

[Sycamore51]

It may be just me, but when people ask me who Indiana State is playing that week it is better to say North Dakota State, Missouri State, Illinois State, or South Dakota as opposed to Akron, Florida Atlantic, Bowling Green, Texas San Antonio, or Testical Tech.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It may be just me, but when people ask me who Indiana State is playing that week it is better to say North Dakota State, Missouri State, Illinois State, or South Dakota as opposed to Akron, Florida Atlantic, Bowling Green, Texas San Antonio, or Testical Tech.

Shhh... the Sun Belt's next expansion target! xlolx

[frozennorth]

The MVFC, Big Sky, CAA, and SoCon are all on par/above the Sun Belt, WAC, and MAC

i agree, with the caveat that the ceiling is higher for an individual team in those fbs conferences. NDSU imo was the best team in the country last year, but would have merely been in the running for the MAC (which was historically strong at the top last year) or wac title (imo they would have won the sunbelt). In the last decade boise, hawaii, nevada, fresno st, and ball st, and possibly others i've forgotten, have all fielded teams better than any fcs team ever.

[MplsBison]

After the beat down that the Sycamores put on WKU last year and then watching WKU almost win the Sun Belt, I am sure that the MVFC is on par with the the Sun Belt, MAC, and WAC as far as talent and performance goes. That being said, I don't think anybody who follows college football puts the lower level FBS schools above FCS schools. Most people think that SUN BELT, MAC, and WAC schools are DII just like most people think FCS schools are DII. The only reason for making the move should be if you think it is only for a little while and that some real conference will come calling.

Just proving my point. FBS isn't about what you've done on the field. There is no requirement that you have to win the championship at the "lower" division in order to move up. This isn't soccer.

And by the way, WKU improved quite a bit after that loss to ISU. It lit a fire under them, just ask the coach. He's quoted saying the ISU game was the turning point in the season. Would ISU have beat WKU after losing to NDSU? Doubt it. But that's getting off on a tangent.


Here's the point: how much does ISU pay Miles and his staff? How much does WKU pay the head coach and his staff in Bowling Green, KY? There's no better barometer, in my mind, of the level of a program than coaching salaries. Those schools who have the financial support, have the money to spend - spend it on getting the best coach they can. Because the best coach gets the best players, who win.

Bless Miles's heart for staying at ISU and trying to build that program back to respectability. But as soon as he has his opportunity to cash in, he's gone. It's coming.

[LakesBison]

The ONLY way the WAC survives is to Invite:

NDSU
MONTANA
MONTANA STATE
UNI (or Illinois State)

[MplsBison]

Exactly this.


Outside of the MWC/CUSA and 6 BCS conferences, everything is exactly the same to anyone outside of fans of those schools/hardcore football fans.

Even then look at how disrespected the CUSA and MWC schools are by the power 6.

If you'd play "FBS or FCS" with the average football/fbs fan I'd be shocked if they finished with over 60% correct....and the ones they get right would likely only be the schools in their area.

You're wrong. And I know I can't convince you otherwise. I'm just stating the fact, you're wrong.

National media perceives non-big time conference FBS teams higher than FCS teams. For right or for wrong. ESPN perceives them to be a better business decision than the FCS playoffs. For right or for wrong.

Maybe they all are just morons who don't know anything. But they do have to make money.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

You're wrong. And I know I can't convince you otherwise. I'm just stating the fact, you're wrong.

National media perceives non-big time conference FBS teams higher than FCS teams. For right or for wrong. ESPN perceives them to be a better business decision than the FCS playoffs. For right or for wrong.

Maybe we all are just morons who don't know anything. But they do have to make money.

FIFY

[TheRevSFA]

The ONLY way the WAC survives is to Invite:

NDSU
MONTANA
MONTANA STATE
UNI (or Illinois State)

Montana and Montana State seem pretty happy with the status quo.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

That's only the reason that they are going FBS. Not the reason they're leapfrogging. Being FBS is the reason.

If Montana Tech went FBS, they'd be more relevant than NDSU too.


It's too bad that you guys can't see past the field. This stuff really has nothing to do with how well the team plays.

No, what is too bad that you don't see the field as what is relevant. Your standard is what some fools can see on ESPN which is nice and all but it is not the American Idol standard for a lot of us.

Hell, people bitch about which ESPN channel they would be shown on because it has to be the flagship and not 2 or U.

It's as empty and shallow as a bunch of rejects standing around and thinking what smartphone they use shows how relevant they are.

[AmsterBison]

Montana and Montana State seem pretty happy with the status quo.

So is North Dakota State, despite what some people would tell you.

[clenz]

UNI is very content where we are. We know who and what we are and do what we can to thrive off of it.


Doesn't mean a junk won't be made, its been looked at. For right now, though, we are good where we are

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

[MplsBison]

No, what is too bad that you don't see the field as what is relevant. Your standard is what some fools can see on ESPN which is nice and all but it is not the American Idol standard for a lot of us.

Hell, people bitch about which ESPN channel they would be shown on because it has to be the flagship and not 2 or U.

It's as empty and shallow as a bunch of rejects standing around and thinking what smartphone they use shows how relevant they are.

Like I said, "for right or for wrong". I'm not saying it's right or that it should be right. I'm just saying how it is.

FBS is perceived as at least being at the table. Maybe way down at the far end "don't talk unless spoken to", but at the friggin table. FCS is out in the other room with DII, DIII and NAIA.


Another analogy: triple A baseball clubs. Some of them are loved in their towns, have great attendance, very nice stadiums, etc. Some are probably even better clubs than the worst MLB teams that draw flys, old stadiums, etc. But it's still the MLB vs the minor leagues. You know which is perceived as which.

[MplsBison]

So is North Dakota State, despite what some people would tell you.

This attitude is why NDSU was "content" to stay in DII until 2002, long after UNI and Montana left.

If there's one thing that will screw NDSU over, again, it's that can't fail "don't fix it if it ain't broke" North Dakota attitude.

[MplsBison]

UNI is very content where we are. We know who and what we are and do what we can to thrive off of it.


Doesn't mean a junk won't be made, its been looked at. For right now, though, we are good where we are

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

You already compete with the Hawks and Clones on the field.

Why not take your program's national perception and scholarships up to that same level? It's not like you're making money in FCS. Heck, you can't even pay your coaching staff competitive salaries. NDSU just stole your D coordinator because he could make more money as a position coach in Fargo!

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Like I said, "for right or for wrong". I'm not saying it's right or that it should be right. I'm just saying how it is.

FBS is perceived as at least being at the table. Maybe way down at the far end "don't talk unless spoken to", but at the friggin table. FCS is out in the other room with DII, DIII and NAIA.


Another analogy: triple A baseball clubs. Some of them are loved in their towns, have great attendance, very nice stadiums, etc. Some are probably even better clubs than the worst MLB teams that draw flys, old stadiums, etc. But it's still the MLB vs the minor leagues. You know which is perceived as which.

I don't disagree with your premise at all. What I am asking is why fans of these teams should give a **** about what other non fans in other locations think? I know I don't. When someone thinking that comes into town and go to a game they are blown away by how different what actually happens in Missoula on a fall Saturday differs from what they thought.

I'm glad they like it and that they were surprised and that it exceeded all expectations but I wouldn't care a bit if they hadn't been here to experience it themselves.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

You already compete with the Hawks and Clones on the field.

Why not take your program's national perception and scholarships up to that same level? It's not like you're making money in FCS. Heck, you can't even pay your coaching staff competitive salaries. NDSU just stole your D coordinator because he could make more money as a position coach in Fargo!

I've asked this a lot of times but have noticed that it doesn't get answered well. Where does this extra money come into play for these teams? We can rule out Bowl money and TV money that many have claimed and were rightly shot down once the facts have been laid out on the table. So that means the money is coming from your fans, students, and donors.

The majority of that budget is driven by the students paying for it at many colleges in the same situation as most FCS teams like UNI or NDSU or Montana would be.

[MplsBison]

I don't disagree with your premise at all. What I am asking is why fans of these teams should give a **** about what other non fans in other locations think? I know I don't. When someone thinking that comes into town and go to a game they are blown away by how different what actually happens in Missoula on a fall Saturday differs from what they thought.

I'm glad they like it and that they were surprised and that it exceeded all expectations but I wouldn't care a bit if they hadn't been here to experience it themselves.

Then you have no problem with Montana and Montana State moving down to NAIA and joining the Frontier Conference.

You'll still get your 24k a game (or whatever), since those fans are there to see Montana play ball - not the other team. You'll still have your one of a kind gameday experience. You'll have very cheap travel playing all the in-state schools. Still have The Brawl game every year. Etc.

Sounds like a win for everyone! Good choice.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Then you have no problem with Montana and Montana State moving down to NAIA and joining the Frontier Conference.

You'll still get your 24k a game (or whatever), since those fans are there to see Montana play ball - not the other team. You'll still have your one of a kind gameday experience. You'll have very cheap travel playing all the in-state schools. Still have The Brawl game every year. Etc.

Sounds like a win for everyone! Good choice.

Why would that be your summary? We make money at this level, it has a playoff where we can see other good teams from around the country match up against us and are not in a weak conference in the division. We don't need to ask the students to support our own dreams of being attached to something their school and state does not jive with budgetary wise and has nothing other than a conference championship & ONE **** bowl game that only our fans would care about no matter how good the team is that season. Right now, if our team is good enough, our fans can see several games, each with a crescendo higher than the last. It is still our fans that are watching it either way.

You take your premise to an absurd place like that and it falls apart. We are where we should be given all the circumstances and therefore I would not like to move down any more than I think than FBS is the place to be.

I do not have to like either one of the options you present. I can be very satisfied where we are at right now.

[MplsBison]

I've asked this a lot of times but have noticed that it doesn't get answered well. Where does this extra money come into play for these teams? We can rule out Bowl money and TV money that many have claimed and were rightly shot down once the facts have been laid out on the table. So that means the money is coming from your fans, students, and donors.

The majority of that budget is driven by the students paying for it at many colleges in the same situation as most FCS teams like UNI or NDSU or Montana would be.

Yes, the additional money input into the program initially comes from donors and, if so blessed, the students who vote to give themselves a fee increase.

But I would say most upper tier FCS schools and lower FBS schools have one thing in common: they come out the same on money.


So as I've said before, if you're going to come out the same on money anyway - why not go for the higher division?

[MplsBison]

Why would that be your summary? We make money at this level, it has a playoff where we can see other good teams from around the country match up against us and are not in a weak conference in the division. We don't need to ask the students to support our own dreams of being attached to something their school and state does not jive with budgetary wise and has nothing other than a conference championship & ONE **** bowl game that only our fans would care about no matter how good the team is that season. Right now, if our team is good enough, our fans can see several games, each with a crescendo higher than the last. It is still our fans that are watching it either way.

You take your premise to an absurd place like that and it falls apart. We are where we should be given all the circumstances and therefore I would not like to move down any more than I think than FBS is the place to be.

I do not have to like either one of the options you present. I can be very satisfied where we are at right now.

Of course you can be satisfied with where you are. You can be satisfied with anything. That wasn't the discussion.

The discussion was justifying FCS by saying you don't care what people think about your program.


Therefore, the logical conclusion is that you don't what people think about Montana football if it was playing Carroll and Montana Tech. Perfectly logical.

Obviously I exposed your argument.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Yes, the additional money input into the program initially comes from donors and, if so blessed, the students who vote to give themselves a fee increase.

But I would say most upper tier FCS schools and lower FBS schools have one thing in common: they come out the same on money.


So as I've said before, if you're going to come out the same on money anyway - why not go for the higher division?

Because as a fan even though the money is the same for the school it is not the same for me. It is more money for me and the payoff for me is drastically diminished. Now the fact that the school has no net gain in your scenario what exactly is doing for the school that is so great again?

Oh yeah, people that aren't fans can see us on ESPN more often...big f'n deal. People with no skin in the game can think more highly of us even though they don't go to the games or support the school...big f'n deal.

[MplsBison]

Because as a fan even though the money is the same for the school it is not the same for me. It is more money for me and the payoff for me is drastically diminished. Now the fact that the school has no net gain in your scenario what exactly is doing for the school that is so great again?

Oh yeah, people that aren't fans can see us on ESPN more often...big f'n deal. People with no skin in the game can think more highly of us even though they don't go to the games or support the school...big f'n deal.

You don't have to donate more. There just need to be more donors or more big time donors.

So like I said, your argument supports Montana moving down to play Carroll and Montana Tech.


Obviously you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You don't want to be down at NAIA or DII level, that's not good enough, but on the other hand you're trying to say you don't need FBS because you don't care if you're FCS.

Pick one way or the other.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Of course you can be satisfied with where you are. You can be satisfied with anything. That wasn't the discussion.

The discussion was justifying FCS by saying you don't care what people think about your program.


Therefore, the logical conclusion is that you don't what people think about Montana football if it was playing Carroll and Montana Tech. Perfectly logical.

Obviously I exposed your argument.

You can't really think that can you? I know you like to the old D1B tact of claiming victory and so forth when you are not making any sort of point and are in fact losing ground but you know that you did not come up with a logical conclusion don't you?

If you only understand analogies and need to make one up for you let me know and I'll do so but the my point was pretty clear there.

BTW, you took satisfied to mean I'm not disturbed when in the context of the paragraph you probably should have noticed that it meant "very happy" with where we are at. It gives a pretty good clue to your misunderstanding what appears to be a straightforward reply though.

[MplsBison]

You can't really think that can you? I know you like to the old D1B tact of claiming victory and so forth when you are not making any sort of point and are in fact losing ground but you know that you did not come up with a logical conclusion don't you?

If you only understand analogies and need to make one up for you let me know and I'll do so but the my point was pretty clear there.

BTW, you took satisfied to mean I'm not disturbed when in the context of the paragraph you probably should have noticed that it meant "very happy" with where we are at. It gives a pretty good clue to your misunderstanding what appears to be a straightforward reply though.

Wow. Completely exposed your argument and you're so upset that you have no comeback.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

You don't have to donate more. There just need to be more donors or more big time donors.

So like I said, your argument supports Montana moving down to play Carroll and Montana Tech.


Obviously you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You don't want to be down at NAIA or DII level, that's not good enough, but on the other hand you're trying to say you don't need FBS because you don't care if you're FCS.

Pick one way or the other.

You're having a lot of trouble here Simple Jack. I'd rather be FCS, not I don't care that we are FCS.

I would pay more. The ticket prices would go up along with every other cost associated with Griz football and it would cost more for a product and an outcome that I don't care AS MUCH about.

You can keep trying to say I either have to want to go FBS or want to go D2 but since it is my opinion and I have a much firmer grasp on that than you do I can tell you that I would rather be in FCS than either of those two places.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Wow. Completely exposed your argument and you're so upset that you have no comeback.

really? You're gonna try that route again? Good luck with it.

[MplsBison]

You're having a lot of trouble here Simple Jack. I'd rather be FCS, not I don't care that we are FCS.

I would pay more. The ticket prices would go up along with every other cost associated with Griz football and it would cost more for a product and an outcome that I don't care AS MUCH about.

You can keep trying to say I either have to want to go FBS or want to go D2 but since it is my opinion and I have a much firmer grasp on that than you do I can tell you that I would rather be in FCS than either of those two places.

Nope - you said "What I am asking is why fans of these teams should give a **** about what other non fans in other locations think? ". That was your argument.

You like it when it works for what you want - staying in FCS because you don't care if Montana football would have a better national perception being FBS.

You don't like it when it works against what you want - moving down to NAIA because you don't care if Montana football would have a lower national perception being NAIA.

[344Johnson]

Until the FBS is an affordable and viable option for what NDSU/Montana/etc. want, FCS does just fine. If in the future, the option of the BCS-type schools making their own subdivision and the Non-BCS schools have their own system, then yes I think a lot of NDSU/Montana/Mont St./UNI/etc. fans would support moving up. That is assuming there is a playoff.

Is that your take on it as well ursus? Without a playoff system, moving up is worthless?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Nope - you said "What I am asking is why fans of these teams should give a **** about what other non fans in other locations think? ". That was your argument.

You like it when it works for what you want - staying in FCS because you don't care if Montana football would have a better national perception being FBS.

You don't like it when it works against what you want - moving down to NAIA because you don't care if Montana football would have a lower national perception being NAIA.

I can not tell you how silly that is. I do not care if people around the country think whatever they want to. It does not work against my argument in any way because I like what we have now and the level we play at. Because I like what we have does not mean I have to want to move down just because I don't need people to look at the Griz in some certain way.

I know when you don't make your point you feel the need to keep restating the same thing but if you don't come up with a better argument then I'm sorry buddy but this one is over.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Until the FBS is an affordable and viable option for what NDSU/Montana/etc. want, FCS does just fine. If in the future, the option of the BCS-type schools making their own subdivision and the Non-BCS schools have their own system, then yes I think a lot of NDSU/Montana/Mont St./UNI/etc. fans would support moving up. That is assuming there is a playoff.

Is that your take on it as well ursus? Without a playoff system, moving up is worthless?

Dead on. It has no worth to me if you can not play it out on the field and see your team have a shot at something because the big boys are able to keep you under their thumb with the lure of some trinkets that don't mean anything.

The BCS is like the old days of boxing in that it is as much or more money driven than it is based on the pure competition of it and actually seeing who is the best in a tournament.

If what you propose were to come to fruition then I would absolutely be all for it. I wonder why MPLS has so much trouble seeing what you can clearly see even though you are both viewing the very same keystrokes?

[MplsBison]

I can not tell you how silly that is. I do not care if people around the country think whatever they want to. It does not work against my argument in any way because I like what we have now and the level we play at. Because I like what we have does not mean I have to want to move down just because I don't need people to look at the Griz in some certain way.

I know when you don't make your point you feel the need to keep restating the same thing but if you don't come up with a better argument then I'm sorry buddy but this one is over.

I didn't say you wanted to move down. You said you don't want to move up. You gave a justification for why you don't want to move up.

I've simply pointed out, correctly, that the same argument can be used to justify a move down. Nothing wrong or silly, in the slightest, with doing that. The point I'm making is you *DO* care what people not affiliated with Montana think about the program. This is very obvious from your replies.

[MplsBison]

Dead on. It has no worth to me if you can not play it out on the field and see your team have a shot at something because the big boys are able to keep you under their thumb with the lure of some trinkets that don't mean anything.

The BCS is like the old days of boxing in that it is as much or more money driven than it is based on the pure competition of it and actually seeing who is the best in a tournament.

If what you propose were to come to fruition then I would absolutely be all for it. I wonder why MPLS has so much trouble seeing what you can clearly see even though you are both viewing the very same keystrokes?

What good is being the champion of FCS, via winning the playoffs, if the division is watered down by the good teams leaving?

Is it any better than being champion of DII and their grand 32 team playoff? I would argue, no it's not.


FBS will shortly have a playoff. The top 4 ranked teams in the nation will compete for the national championship in a playoff. All Montana has to do is be ranked in the top 4 and you'll be in the playoff.

Glad you're on-board now.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

What good is being the champion of FCS, via winning the playoffs, if the division is watered down by the good teams leaving?

Is it any better than being champion of DII and their grand 32 team playoff? I would argue, no it's not.


FBS will shortly have a playoff. The top 4 ranked teams in the nation will compete for the national championship in a playoff. All Montana has to do is be ranked in the top 4 and you'll be in the playoff.

Glad you're on-board now.

The top 4 ranked teams will always be in the BCS. They have always kept Boise at arms length. If it's top 4 then the "upstarts" will be 5 and below.

[darell1976]

What good is being the champion of FCS, via winning the playoffs, if the division is watered down by the good teams leaving?

Is it any better than being champion of DII and their grand 32 team playoff? I would argue, no it's not.


FBS will shortly have a playoff. The top 4 ranked teams in the nation will compete for the national championship in a playoff. All Montana has to do is be ranked in the top 4 and you'll be in the playoff.

Glad you're on-board now.

Get a playoff first then start talking about moving up. Not the other way around. Plus is the WAC really where you want NDSU to be? I am sure Idaho wishes they can bale on it. What good teams have left the FCS that it is so watered down? Look at the teams that has left in the last few years...Georgia State, UMass, Texas State, South Alabama, UTSA, Western Kentucky. Only 2 of those teams has won a National title (UMass and Western Kentucky) and UMass has lost 2 NC games. GSU 9-13 overall FCS record, Texas State 2 Southland Conference titles, South Alabama 6-4 in 2011, UTSA 4-6 in 2011, and Western Kentucky 11 conference championships. IMO not a whole lot of success in the FCS besides UMass, WKU, and Texas St. Did App St leave? Did Montana leave? Did losing DII teams join the FCS to water it down? Please state examples of the watered down FCS.

[dgtw]

So what's wrong with being happy where you are? Why do you care that one Montana fan on a message board doesn't want his team to move to the FBS? Given that his team's only option would be a very desperate WAC, do you really blame him? I don't know Ursus personally, but I doubt he has any say so in what Montana eventually decides to do, so what does his opinion really amount to, anyway?

GSU (both of them), Appy State and UNCC are in an area of the country where they have two decent FBS leagues that may be interested in them. Montana is in the MWC's footprint, but I don't see them going after FCS call-ups.

[MplsBison]

The top 4 ranked teams will always be in the BCS. They have always kept Boise at arms length. If it's top 4 then the "upstarts" will be 5 and below.

Maybe.

You could also make the argument that no team ever ranked outside the top 10 in the pre-season poll can ever really climb up into the top 4, no matter what happens. So there are plenty of BCS teams that likely never have a shot.


Nonetheless, the opportunity is there - just as it technically is today. Make the top whatever ranking and earn your spot. Boise is going to have to schedule up to ever make it.

[MplsBison]

So what's wrong with being happy where you are? Why do you care that one Montana fan on a message board doesn't want his team to move to the FBS? Given that his team's only option would be a very desperate WAC, do you really blame him? I don't know Ursus personally, but I doubt he has any say so in what Montana eventually decides to do, so what does his opinion really amount to, anyway?

GSU (both of them), Appy State and UNCC are in an area of the country where they have two decent FBS leagues that may be interested in them. Montana is in the MWC's footprint, but I don't see them going after FCS call-ups.

This is just banter. For entertainment.

That's the only purpose of AGS. None of us have a bee's fart worth of say in what actually happens. This is only place we can make our useless thoughts heard.


Go rain on someone else's parade.