Georgetown Announces Recruiting Class

[breezy]

Here it is:

http://www.guhoyas.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/052610aaa.html

Time for Carney to sharpen his pencil.

[Ivytalk]

Where's Bill Clinton?:D

[carney2]

It will take a while to get through 34 of them.

[MplsBison]

So lets get this straight.

Georgetown, a university in Washington DC, gives its football coaching staff a large enough recruiting budget to recruit players from the following locations:

Texas
New Jersey
Pennsylvania
Georgia
California
Illinois
Ohio
Maryland
Florida
Washington (state)
Massachusetts
Minnesota
Michigan
New York
Washington DC


but it does not have enough resources to fully fund the "scholarship equivalency" program to even 50% of the top Patriot League teams or construct facilities that meet most high school standards?


xthumbsdownx xcoffeex

[Franks Tanks]

It is much cheaper to send a coach to Cali to recruit a few kids than to fork over 40-50k for a scholly equivilant.

[401ks]

It is much cheaper to send a coach to Cali to recruit a few kids than to fork over 40-50k for a scholly equivilant.

The fact is that in most cases these student-athletes actively seek out Georgetown because of its outstanding academic reputation. Georgetown generally does not send coaches out to places like California or Texas (unless the AFCA convention happens to be in California or Texas).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So lets get this straight.

Georgetown, a university in Washington DC, gives its football coaching staff a large enough recruiting budget to recruit players from [across the country],
but it does not have enough resources to fully fund the "scholarship equivalency" program to even 50% of the top Patriot League teams or construct facilities that meet most high school standards?

xthumbsdownx xcoffeex

That's because there are not nearly enough football players from the Maryland/DC/Virginia area that can play Division I football and meet the stringent academic standards of the Patriot League. All the members of the Patriot League - and the Ivy League, against whom they compete directly for recruits - have to recruit nationally to get enough players.

[MplsBison]

Nonsense.

There are surely 80 kids in DC, Virginia and Maryland alone who would glad enroll at Georgetown and meet the academic requirements, with enough athletic ability to play football.


That's the point. GU refuses to give the football program enough money to compete...yet they let the team pretend like they're trying hard to get the players they need to win.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Nonsense.

There are surely 80 kids in DC, Virginia and Maryland alone who would glad enroll at Georgetown and meet the academic requirements, with enough athletic ability to play football.


That's the point. GU refuses to give the football program enough money to compete...yet they let the team pretend like they're trying hard to get the players they need to win.

Lehigh and Lafayette can't do it in football-rich Pennsylvania, either. For that matter, neither can Villanova. I'm assuming that national champion Villanova "tried hard enough to get the players they needed to win."

[ngineer]

Nonsense.

There are surely 80 kids in DC, Virginia and Maryland alone who would glad enroll at Georgetown and meet the academic requirements, with enough athletic ability to play football.


That's the point. GU refuses to give the football program enough money to compete...yet they let the team pretend like they're trying hard to get the players they need to win.


With need based grants there are going to be a lot of kids who would love to go to Gtown, but can't afford the difference between what Gtown can offer them based on the financial need formula. Hoyas are the most expensive of the PL schools last time I looked. So a good kid who may be accepted to Gtown but only qualifies for $10k of aid, has to come up with another $40+K, as opposed to taking a full ride to Richmond, which while not Gtown, has an excellent academic reputation.

[MplsBison]

But if the GU football program only has 20 scholarship equivalencies to work with in the first place, you're basically walking into players' living rooms and telling their parents "we can get him into school...but you're going to have to hope he qualifies for school aid, the football program can only give him a 5K grant this year".


You can't win like that.

[DetroitFlyer]

But if the GU football program only has 20 scholarship equivalencies to work with in the first place, you're basically walking into players' living rooms and telling their parents "we can get him into school...but you're going to have to hope he qualifies for school aid, the football program can only give him a 5K grant this year".


You can't win like that.

Of course you can, Dayton has been doing it for years! The difference is that kids WANT to attend Georgetown, (or Dayton). It is not like trying to recruit some kid to go play at good ole backwater state u in the middle of nowhere.... A Georgetown degree is actually a good investment. A degree from backwater state u is also a good investment, but not anywhere close to a Georgetown degree. Trust me, there are virtually ZERO kids that choose to play at either Georgetown or backwater state u. It is a completely different kid that is recruited at both places. Backwater state u provides a place for the minimum qualifiers to get into college and have a great shot at a very good life. Kids that choose to attend Georgetown are already great students and typically a cut above academically which means they can be successful at Georgetown and go on to become the shakers and movers of our society. There is NOTHING wrong with either model. Both work well for their respective institutions. Not everybody has to do everything the exact same way and success or lack thereof is not a foregone conclusion regardless of the model employed. This really in not rocket science. Honestly, you do not need a Georgetown or Dayton degree to understand this concept.... Well, maybe some do....

[Rob Iola]

Hellooooo 2 and 9...

[DFW HOYA]

But if the GU football program only has 20 scholarship equivalencies to work with in the first place, you're basically walking into players' living rooms and telling their parents "we can get him into school...but you're going to have to hope he qualifies for school aid, the football program can only give him a 5K grant this year". You can't win like that.

First, I don't think it's even close to 20. That's a problem all its own.

Second, to be a consistent program a coach must do four things: attract, recruit, sign, and develop talent. Georgetown needs help on all of these right now.

1. It attracts plenty of out of state kids, but suffers locally because of disinterest by local HS coaches and facilities that are, in most cases, below that of the high schools, and a GU student body that has very little local representation (3%). An earlier post from the Bison suggested there are 80 local kids who would be glad to play at GU...and a count of 14 Ivy and PL rosters counted 78 kids from DC/Md/Va at these schools but only 7 at Georgetown. Three PL schools have more area kids than does Georgetown.

2. Next, you've got to recruit them. THe PL recruiting rules basically limit the national football recruiting pool to the top 10-12% by grades, not talent. If those top 10-12% aren't already staying closer to home, offered a I-A grant, or a free ride at another I-AA school, or a near-free ride at the other 14 Ivy/PL schools, then they're in Georgetown's admission pool. But if they don't have the minimum scores assigned by the PL (and Georgetown had higher index scores to reach than any other PL school) , they aren't even recruitable. If the next Tim Tebow didn't have the "academic index" mandated by the PL for GU's recruits, he couldn't be recruited by GU even if he offered to pay the full tuition. Which leads to...

3. Sign the recruits. Every other Pl school has 2x and 3x the equivalencies to offer that Georgetown does not. Six or seven Ivy schools can otherwise waive financial need for households earning under $50,000. You can get a great education at UR and W&M for $0 and be two hours from home...and what's the school's W/L record over the last four years?? That's an increasingly tough sell. Oh, the cost of tuition, room, and board topped $51,000 for 2010-11. It's a great education, but that's not always the first thing on the mind of a 17 year old with 30 schools trying to sign him.

4. Then, there's the need to develop. Every year, we read how the recruiting class might have turned the corner...and two years later opponents remark how not more than one or two GU starters could even start on their team. The Hoyas will have a DE or LB each year that will get attention within the conference, but haven't had an offensive threat in almost seven years. It's one thing to lose and be in the middle of the offensive ratings, but to be consistently at the bottom of total offense and scoring offense nationally (i.e..scoring 9.6 points per game) sends a bad message to potential recruits and their high school coaches.


Each of these issues on its own is not an absolute impediment to succeeding in a confernece, albeit one in some decline since 2003. Together, it's a tremendous challenge to fight through and perhaps, one of the reasons Kevin Kelly's 5-38 record has not been as toxic as it would be at other schools. But challenges are made to be overcome, even if the odds aren't always in one's favor.

[DetroitFlyer]

Of course you can, Dayton has been doing it for years! The difference is that kids WANT to attend Georgetown, (or Dayton). It is not like trying to recruit some kid to go play at good ole backwater state u in the middle of nowhere.... A Georgetown degree is actually a good investment. A degree from backwater state u is also a good investment, but not anywhere close to a Georgetown degree. Trust me, there are virtually ZERO kids that choose to play at either Georgetown or backwater state u. It is a completely different kid that is recruited at both places. Backwater state u provides a place for the minimum qualifiers to get into college and have a great shot at a very good life. Kids that choose to attend Georgetown are already great students and typically a cut above academically which means they can be successful at Georgetown and go on to become the shakers and movers of our society. There is NOTHING wrong with either model. Both work well for their respective institutions. Not everybody has to do everything the exact same way and success or lack thereof is not a foregone conclusion regardless of the model employed. This really in not rocket science. Honestly, you do not need a Georgetown or Dayton degree to understand this concept.... Well, maybe some do....

More on the value of a degree from schools like Georgetown and Dayton:

http://www.milligan.edu/news/USNews_deals.pdf

Georgetown is ranked at 24 while Dayton is ranked at 36. Where exactly does MplsBison's rank?

As I stated above, STUDENT/athletes actually WANT to attend these schools and it is a good OVERALL value for those STUDENT/athletes.

[Model Citizen]

THe PL recruiting rules basically limit the national football recruiting pool to the top 10-12% by grades...

Would Georgetown's admissions be less restrictive without the league rules? I seem to remember the Hoyas beating more Patriot League teams in their MAAC days.

[Franks Tanks]

Would Georgetown's admissions be less restrictive without the league rules? I seem to remember the Hoyas beating more Patriot League teams in their MAAC days.

Interesting questions. The Hoya's did have pretty good success vs. PL schools before joining the PL.

Even without the AI Georgetown's standards are incredibly high, and have raised quite a bit over the last decade.

I think the difference was good coaching in the late 90's Benson was building a very good program at the time. He stumbled a bit and got the axe. The Hoya's have gotten progressively worse each year under Kelly.

[MplsBison]

First, I don't think it's even close to 20. That's a problem all its own.

Second, to be a consistent program a coach must do four things: attract, recruit, sign, and develop talent. Georgetown needs help on all of these right now.

1. It attracts plenty of out of state kids, but suffers locally because of disinterest by local HS coaches and facilities that are, in most cases, below that of the high schools, and a GU student body that has very little local representation (3%). An earlier post from the Bison suggested there are 80 local kids who would be glad to play at GU...and a count of 14 Ivy and PL rosters counted 78 kids from DC/Md/Va at these schools but only 7 at Georgetown. Three PL schools have more area kids than does Georgetown.

2. Next, you've got to recruit them. THe PL recruiting rules basically limit the national football recruiting pool to the top 10-12% by grades, not talent. If those top 10-12% aren't already staying closer to home, offered a I-A grant, or a free ride at another I-AA school, or a near-free ride at the other 14 Ivy/PL schools, then they're in Georgetown's admission pool. But if they don't have the minimum scores assigned by the PL (and Georgetown had higher index scores to reach than any other PL school) , they aren't even recruitable. If the next Tim Tebow didn't have the "academic index" mandated by the PL for GU's recruits, he couldn't be recruited by GU even if he offered to pay the full tuition. Which leads to...

3. Sign the recruits. Every other Pl school has 2x and 3x the equivalencies to offer that Georgetown does not. Six or seven Ivy schools can otherwise waive financial need for households earning under $50,000. You can get a great education at UR and W&M for $0 and be two hours from home...and what's the school's W/L record over the last four years?? That's an increasingly tough sell. Oh, the cost of tuition, room, and board topped $51,000 for 2010-11. It's a great education, but that's not always the first thing on the mind of a 17 year old with 30 schools trying to sign him.

4. Then, there's the need to develop. Every year, we read how the recruiting class might have turned the corner...and two years later opponents remark how not more than one or two GU starters could even start on their team. The Hoyas will have a DE or LB each year that will get attention within the conference, but haven't had an offensive threat in almost seven years. It's one thing to lose and be in the middle of the offensive ratings, but to be consistently at the bottom of total offense and scoring offense nationally (i.e..scoring 9.6 points per game) sends a bad message to potential recruits and their high school coaches.


Each of these issues on its own is not an absolute impediment to succeeding in a confernece, albeit one in some decline since 2003. Together, it's a tremendous challenge to fight through and perhaps, one of the reasons Kevin Kelly's 5-38 record has not been as toxic as it would be at other schools. But challenges are made to be overcome, even if the odds aren't always in one's favor.

GU obviously has no problem playing bball in the Big East.

That means the administration is open to being in conferences with schools that are "beneath" them in terms of academics.



Therefore, the only logical conclusion is to join a conference in football that does not have such arbitrary recruiting limitations.


GU is not as good academically as Northwestern (Chicago) and they certainly are able to attract good football players without arbitrary recruiting limitations. They aren't exactly signing morons either.

[onbison09]

Good luck Shannon "Hitman" Adams!

[carney2]

There have been some absolutely absurd comments made so far in this thread, so I'm not sure why I'm bothering but here goes anyway:

1. DFW is the best source of information on this that we have. He has spoken. Read it.

2. Georgetown is in over its football head, even in the lowly Patriot League. They have so far chosen not to remedy the situation, and their lack of any other actions indicates that they are not enamored with their options.

3. The day of reckoning may be at hand. IF the Patriot League moves forward with football scholarships, the powers that be in Hoyaland may be forced to get off the fence.

Beyond that, why are we continuing to bounce this ball?

[jimbo65]

I don't mean this as a dig at the fball program or to Gtown for that matter but if they wish to have a successful fball program, lower the admission standards to that of their basketball program. I suppose the argument would be that PL rules would not allow that. True, but that is a dodge. The standards are bent ,if not broken, to make bball $s. The admin. doesn't care about fball. If they did, they would find the means to field a more competitive fball program. As I've written previously, until the recent "reemphasis" plus $s on Fordham bball, our bball program was llike GTown fball, generally disastorous. The difference being that Fordham wasted literally millions on bball with almost zero results i.e., 5 total wins in thew last two seasons. The administration at Fordham is inept. Gtown bball likely won that many or more in a week or so.

IMO what is not going to happen is any significant number of fball players, wiith PL talent, are going to take $5K plus something based on need and incur, or put on their parents, $35 K a year minimum for four years. Only way that happens is if the family is well off.

[MplsBison]

So the problem is really two fold:

1) GU won't give their players money to play football

2) The PL won't let them go after kids that schools like Northwestern, Stanford, Duke, etc. are allowed to go after (which of course is absurd).

[DFW HOYA]

So the problem is really two fold: 1) GU won't give their players money to play football 2) The PL won't let them go after kids that schools like Northwestern, Stanford, Duke, etc. are allowed to go after (which of course is absurd).

No, these are symptoms of the larger issues, not the issues themselves. The ability to recruit kids with a 1050 SAT instead of a 1250 doesn't really move the balance of power if these kids can't or won't go there in the first place.

I would argue that there are five factors, somewhat interdependent of each other, that are in play.

1. An insufficient revenue base to support a budget to cover athletic scholarships. Georgetown is not philosophically opposed to atheltic grants (before it dropped major college football, GU funded football 81 scholarships a year), but it is not bringing in the kind of money in football to cover this expenditure.

2. A recruiting gap based on the inability to compete on financial aid/support offers of peer institutions and exacerbated by a march towards full-ride giving (scholarship or otherwise) by Ivy and PL schools.

3. An overall lack of any gameday, practice, or training facilities comparable at the NCAA Division I or II level, which affects recruiting, training, and overall strength of the program.

4. Poor gameday results. Georgetown has won six PL games in nine years, and only one in the last four. Aside from Bucknell, it has been increasingly non-competitive against league opponents.

5. A lack of tangible progress on #1-4 above, which feeds misperceptions that the school does not support the sport (despite football having the second largest budget in the athletic department).

Carney's post on the previous page hits the proverbial nail on the head, however. "If the Patriot League moves forward with football scholarships," he writes, "the powers that be in Hoyaland may be forced to get off the fence." Well, maybe, maybe not. If these five issues above aren't solved, what really is going to change?

[MplsBison]

I think he meant that they would be forced to correct problem #1 - the school has to give football players more money.

That should take care of problem #2.



Then, if you assume the administrators are business people, then they aren't going to be wanting to dump a bunch of money into football player aid if they don't have the facilities to complete. Money will be raised to build good practice facilities and a deal cut to play games in RFK.

That should take care of problems #3.


With those two solved, problem #4 should reverse itself and GU will be as competitive as the rest of the PL.


Then once the PL drops their ridiculous ideology on recruiting limitations, GU could be competitive with the rest of FCS.

[LBPop]

I have offered my perspective in years past, but maybe I should update it a bit. About 6 1/2 year ago we faced the dilemma that DFW and others have described. Our son had I-AA talent and Ivy/PL academic credentials. We had coaches from both leagues come to our home and say, "Come play for us and get a great education." And when Dad (that's me) asked, "What about money?", I was told to fill out the form and submit my tax returns. Well, we are fortunate enough to not qualify for financial aid, but $50,000 (after tax) per year hurt a lot.

So LBKid fell in love with Georgetown and we still feel the effect of funding his education. But I would do it again. He was recruited to Wall Street by a firm that only recruits at five schools in the country. He is doing great and that's what we paid for. But think of the limited population from which Georgetown and similar Ivy/PL schools can draw. The kid has to meet the following:

1. Have at least I-AA talent
2. Have Georgetown academic credentials
3. Be from a family who is wealthy; be from a family who can scrape up the cost, but not qualify for aid (that's us); or be from a family that can afford very little and qualify for aid.

Those are very limiting requirements and if a family falls into the middle category, as we do, they need to be willing to make the sacrifice and the kid needs to feel OK allowing them to make that sacrifice. This was a real topic of discussion in our house as LBKid was receiving both football and academic partial scholarship offers.

Now having said all that, I will reiterate my opinion about what Georgetown needs. If they can find a young, bright, high energy football junkie to run this program they can overcome all of this. Yes, Georgetown is an expensive product to sell, but it's a great product to sell. And the right guy can find enough rich kids, not so rich kids, and some that fall in the middle but with parents dumb enough to stretch like crazy to field a competitive team. Now they have to go get that guy.

[MplsBison]

Or they could give 63 scholarship equivalencies worth of aid to the football players.

That would help.

[ngineer]

I have offered my perspective in years past, but maybe I should update it a bit. About 6 1/2 year ago we faced the dilemma that DFW and others have described. Our son had I-AA talent and Ivy/PL academic credentials. We had coaches from both leagues come to our home and say, "Come play for us and get a great education." And when Dad (that's me) asked, "What about money?", I was told to fill out the form and submit my tax returns. Well, we are fortunate enough to not qualify for financial aid, but $50,000 (after tax) per year hurt a lot.

So LBKid fell in love with Georgetown and we still feel the effect of funding his education. But I would do it again. He was recruited to Wall Street by a firm that only recruits at five schools in the country. He is doing great and that's what we paid for. But think of the limited population from which Georgetown and similar Ivy/PL schools can draw. The kid has to meet the following:

1. Have at least I-AA talent
2. Have Georgetown academic credentials
3. Be from a family who is wealthy; be from a family who can scrape up the cost, but not qualify for aid (that's us); or be from a family that can afford very little and qualify for aid.

Those are very limiting requirements and if a family falls into the middle category, as we do, they need to be willing to make the sacrifice and the kid needs to feel OK allowing them to make that sacrifice. This was a real topic of discussion in our house as LBKid was receiving both football and academic partial scholarship offers.

Now having said all that, I will reiterate my opinion about what Georgetown needs. If they can find a young, bright, high energy football junkie to run this program they can overcome all of this. Yes, Georgetown is an expensive product to sell, but it's a great product to sell. And the right guy can find enough rich kids, not so rich kids, and some that fall in the middle but with parents dumb enough to stretch like crazy to field a competitive team. Now they have to go get that guy.

I agree with all you say, but there also has to be more of commitment to their facilities. Their grand plan for the stadium looked great on paper four years ago. Where is that going? The recruitment will only go so far if the facilities are too inferior to the rest of those same quality schools recruiting the same kids. They don't have to be the best, but they need to upgrade to make it a non-issue to the real decision makers.

[CFBfan]

I have offered my perspective in years past, but maybe I should update it a bit. About 6 1/2 year ago we faced the dilemma that DFW and others have described. Our son had I-AA talent and Ivy/PL academic credentials. We had coaches from both leagues come to our home and say, "Come play for us and get a great education." And when Dad (that's me) asked, "What about money?", I was told to fill out the form and submit my tax returns. Well, we are fortunate enough to not qualify for financial aid, but $50,000 (after tax) per year hurt a lot.

So LBKid fell in love with Georgetown and we still feel the effect of funding his education. But I would do it again. He was recruited to Wall Street by a firm that only recruits at five schools in the country. He is doing great and that's what we paid for. But think of the limited population from which Georgetown and similar Ivy/PL schools can draw. The kid has to meet the following:

1. Have at least I-AA talent
2. Have Georgetown academic credentials
3. Be from a family who is wealthy; be from a family who can scrape up the cost, but not qualify for aid (that's us); or be from a family that can afford very little and qualify for aid.

Those are very limiting requirements and if a family falls into the middle category, as we do, they need to be willing to make the sacrifice and the kid needs to feel OK allowing them to make that sacrifice. This was a real topic of discussion in our house as LBKid was receiving both football and academic partial scholarship offers.

Now having said all that, I will reiterate my opinion about what Georgetown needs. If they can find a young, bright, high energy football junkie to run this program they can overcome all of this. Yes, Georgetown is an expensive product to sell, but it's a great product to sell. And the right guy can find enough rich kids, not so rich kids, and some that fall in the middle but with parents dumb enough to stretch like crazy to field a competitive team. Now they have to go get that guy.

LBPop I agree 100% with you. I am now living exactly what you describe here....exactly, and after 3 years of "observing" I fully beleive that the biggest issue BY FAR with the wins and losses (occasional and infrequent wins) is the COACHING STAFF!!!! Like anything else it starts at the top! and it trickles down! I could go on here but will leave it at this. It is more than any ohter issue the staff!!

[LBPop]

I agree with all you say, but there also has to be more of commitment to their facilities. Their grand plan for the stadium looked great on paper four years ago. Where is that going? The recruitment will only go so far if the facilities are too inferior to the rest of those same quality schools recruiting the same kids. They don't have to be the best, but they need to upgrade to make it a non-issue to the real decision makers.

It all matters, Mr. Engineer, Sir. But nobody will contribute serious money until they start to win a few games. Manipulating the famous quote from Field of Dreams, "Win a few and they will build it". And finding that young coach will be far easier than finding $10 million, I'm afraid.

[MplsBison]

What about Oklahoma State? Pickens dropped a lot of millions to make that place something else and they haven't won many titles.

You get some guy who is loaded and loves his school, winning doesn't matter as much.


You're telling me Georgetown doesn't have some of those guys? Maybe not $165 million, but sheesh even $20 million would build something decent. Better than a middle school facility anyway.

[LBPop]

You're telling me Georgetown doesn't have some of those guys? Maybe not $165 million, but sheesh even $20 million would build something decent. Better than a middle school facility anyway.

Frankly, I am not telling you anything, because I don't know. I assume that Bill Clinton, Paul Tagliabue, Patrick Ewing and others know about the football team. And I have heard that there have been offers of large contributions conditioned upon other large contributions sufficient to get the job done. But I have no evidence of that...perhaps DFW can enlighten us, as always.