Going Down? Several FCS Look to Div II?

[TexasTerror]

What was Ted DiBiase's old theme song...? "Money, money, money, money..."

College athletics has become a game of dollar and cents. There are so many questions that come about when it comes to how schools fund their athletic department.

Will schools help athletic departments through the general fund?
How much are students willing to give?
How does the state limit schools as it pertains to athletic funding?
Can schools even bring about a student athletic fee?

The more this goes on, the more there is talk of schools moving down in classification. Though only a few schools in recent years have done it or discussed it, could there be more there?

Sports are being eliminated, including those football programs at Northeastern and Hofstra. Is that enough? Are things going to get better with those cuts? What about schools that want to maintain football, but need to find some savings?

Is Division II a cheaper alternative for some of those schools struggling to get by as a FCS? Fewer scholarship dollars. In some cases, less travel because of the amount of Div II schools in the area. You can cut a few sports as well, since the levels are lower in terms of sports required. And most certainly, fewer competitive dates allowed.

Is Division III a better route? Scholarships are big money. Eliminate those. BOOM! Salaries go down. Enrollment can go up (ask Birmingham Southern).

Thoughts?

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Which schools are looking at dropping down?

[TexasTerror]

Which schools are looking at dropping down?

You tell me... xnodx

Several schools are eliminating sports, several schools are having problems keeping their doors open (just look at the list in the Louisiana budget thread of schools that could be closed if the worst were to happen)....

Academics is a priority, athletics is not even a necessary evil...just ask Northeastern and Hofstra about football...

[superman7515]

Everybody's got a price for the BCS... I mean Million Dollar Man.

[DFW HOYA]

There is nothing about Division II that is appeaking to I-AA teams at the expense of possible NCAA basketball tournament monies. Usually the choice is cutting sports to stay where they are.

Outside of Birmingham-Southern and UNO, when was the last Div. I school to go down this route in all sports? I can think of only three: Washington & Lee, Trinity (TX), and Hardin-Simmons, which might have been the last one in the mid-1980's.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

You tell me... xnodx

Several schools are eliminating sports, several schools are having problems keeping their doors open (just look at the list in the Louisiana budget thread of schools that could be closed if the worst were to happen)....

Academics is a priority, athletics is not even a necessary evil...just ask Northeastern and Hofstra about football...

You tell me. You started the thread with the teaser in the subject line.

I can't imagine a single school in this region that would be considering this. Too much potential revenue from NCAA hoops.

[TexasTerror]

.Outside of Birmingham-Southern and UNO, when was the last Div. I school to go down this route in all sports? I can think of only three: Washington & Lee, Trinity (TX), and Hardin-Simmons, which might have been the last one in the mid-1980's.

Centenary. Wasn't there a New York school as well in the 1980s?


You tell me. You started the thread with the teaser in the subject line.

I can't imagine a single school in this region that would be considering this. Too much potential revenue from NCAA hoops.

I don't know, perhaps in the next few years, we can revisit this subject...

It's a hard knock life to be in collegiate athletics, even if you have the 'golden egg' of Div I.

[UAalum72]

Centenary. Wasn't there a New York school as well in the 1980s?

Not in football. Utica College was Division I in basketball for seven years until 1987 (former Milwaukee Bucks coach Larry Costello was their coach) but I don't think they D-I in anything else.

Buffalo was major college football before droppng it in 1970. They were then D-III in all sports until beginnning to upgrade in the late 80s.

The Violets of New York University were also a D-I basketball team until 1981.

[Sader87]

Sticking with bball...Catholic U was D1 for a brief period in the late 70's and early 80's. Wasn't the University of Rochester once D1 in hoops too?

Agree with others though, we'd (HC) drop football before going D2 or D3.

[Go...gate]

Not in football. Utica College was Division I in basketball for seven years until 1987 (former Milwaukee Bucks coach Larry Costello was their coach) but I don't think they D-I in anything else.

Buffalo was major college football before droppng it in 1970. They were then D-III in all sports until beginnning to upgrade in the late 80s.

The Violets of New York University were also a D-I basketball team until 1981.

Actually, 1971.

[UAalum72]

Actually, 1971.
You mean Wikipedia can actually be wrong?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_University_Violets#History xoopsx

[whoanellie]

There is nothing about Division II that is appeaking to I-AA teams at the expense of possible NCAA basketball tournament monies. Usually the choice is cutting sports to stay where they are.

Outside of Birmingham-Southern and UNO, when was the last Div. I school to go down this route in all sports? I can think of only three: Washington & Lee, Trinity (TX), and Hardin-Simmons, which might have been the last one in the mid-1980's.

Winston Salem ST decided to move back to CIAA this fall.

[TexasTerror]

Not in football. Utica College was Division I in basketball for seven years until 1987 (former Milwaukee Bucks coach Larry Costello was their coach) but I don't think they D-I in anything else.

Buffalo was major college football before droppng it in 1970. They were then D-III in all sports until beginnning to upgrade in the late 80s.

The Violets of New York University were also a D-I basketball team until 1981.

Is it the College of New Jersey that I am thinking about?

[Twentysix]

There is nothing about Division II that is appeaking to I-AA teams at the expense of possible NCAA basketball tournament monies. Usually the choice is cutting sports to stay where they are.

Outside of Birmingham-Southern and UNO, when was the last Div. I school to go down this route in all sports? I can think of only three: Washington & Lee, Trinity (TX), and Hardin-Simmons, which might have been the last one in the mid-1980's.

Centenary College in Shrieveport (SP?) LA They are going D3.

Oral Roberts went from D1 to NAIA but are D1 again.

[UAalum72]

Is it the College of New Jersey that I am thinking about?
No, not the former Trenton State (until 1996), nor Rowan (former Glassboro State).

[DFW HOYA]

Centenary College in Shrieveport (SP?) LA They are going D3.

Oral Roberts went from D1 to NAIA but are D1 again.

The original question was the last D-I team with football to take football and all other sports to D-III...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You've asked three different questions.


College athletics has become a game of dollar and cents.

The more this goes on, the more there is talk of schools moving down in classification. Though only a few schools in recent years have done it or discussed it, could there be more there?

Maybe.


Sports are being eliminated, including those football programs at Northeastern and Hofstra. Is that enough? Are things going to get better with those cuts? What about schools that want to maintain football, but need to find some savings?

Football costs will save some money, but not nearly as much as Hofstra's president would have you believe. And frequently the president's own salary could be reduced by one ivory backscratcher to pay for the entire program for an entire year.


Is Division II a cheaper alternative for some of those schools struggling to get by as a FCS? Is Division III a better route?

D-II makes no sense because you'd still have significant scholarship expenses but with none of the benefits of D-I membership. D-III would make the most sense in terms of potentially saving money, but you would cease to exist on ESPN and many major media outlets. You'd become a Swarthmore - probably not the goal of many of these ADs.

[doolittledog]

I can't find the link anymore. But, Iowa Wesleyan did a study and found that the average D3 school gives more in finantial aid per student than what your average NAIA and D2 school gives in athletic scholarships and aid per student. So, potentially, you aren't necessarily saving money by going the D3 route. You are correct though, that you would cease to exist on ESPN and most major media outlets by going D3. Other than the D3 football championship game being on ESPN. Though it was just a year or two ago the D3 championship game had a higher rating that the FCS and D2 championship games, so there you go.

[TexasTerror]

I can't find the link anymore. But, Iowa Wesleyan did a study and found that the average D3 school gives more in finantial aid per student than what your average NAIA and D2 school gives in athletic scholarships and aid per student. So, potentially, you aren't necessarily saving money by going the D3 route.

If someone can find this study, it would be much appreciated! First I've heard of it, but it makes a valid point...

Saw they announced intentions to study a move from NAIA to Div III. From scholarship to non-scholarship. Then, said they were staying put.

[Franks Tanks]

The original question was the last D-I team with football to take football and all other sports to D-III...

West Texas A&M went to D-II in all sports including football. I dont know of any school with football that moved their entire athletic department down to D-III.

[Panther88]

It won't be long before lamar university returns to it's olden ways of obscurity by disbanding its football team yet again. :D xbowx

I detect(ed) instability about their athletic department. Since their basketball team of the early 80s hit the skids, you really don't hear anything about those people.

[WileECoyote06]

Winston Salem ST's president decided to move back to CIAA this fall.

Corrected that for you. To hear their alumni tell it, it wasn't a popular move and the president never took time to outline what had to be done (financially) to maintain their transition.

WSSU's football team is suffering as their players transfer en masse. Good luck to Coach Maynor.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

As long as you have schools playing whatever combination of D-I Football, Basketball, Baseball, Softball, Ice Hockey (M/W) and Lacrosse (M/W) (M/W = men's and/or women's) and NCAA regulations require football to be played at the D-I level, you won't see programs dropping down. Reduced scholarship, non-scholarship or eliminating football will happen first.

[DFW HOYA]

UNO's "drop down, add football" approach seems to mirror what former TAAC school Hardin-Simmons did in the late 1980's.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=fbALAAAAIBAJ&sjid=bFYDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3577,5422523&dq=hardin+simmons+division+iii&hl=en

The last school with football to drop down might just be West Texas State.

[TexasTerror]

UNO's "drop down, add football" approach seems to mirror what former TAAC school Hardin-Simmons did in the late 1980's.

Or Birmingham Southern...??? They were not in Division I long, but they have since added football, amongst other sports. It has in fact had a positive effect on their enrollment and the school's diversity.

[centexguy]

It won't be long before lamar university returns to it's olden ways of obscurity by disbanding its football team yet again. :D xbowx

I detect(ed) instability about their athletic department. Since their basketball team of the early 80s hit the skids, you really don't hear anything about those people.

You are really clueless about Lamar. xrotatehx

[Panther88]

You are really clueless about Lamar. xrotatehx

No! I'm knowledgeable enough to know that I have a deep-seated hatred for lamar that is more real than you can ever imagine. :D I wish the worst on that school @ all costs. :D xhurrayxxbowx

[TheBisonator]

UNO's "drop down, add football" approach seems to mirror what former TAAC school Hardin-Simmons did in the late 1980's.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=fbALAAAAIBAJ&sjid=bFYDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3577,5422523&dq=hardin+simmons+division+iii&hl=en

The last school with football to drop down might just be West Texas State.

If you talk to a lot of the WTAM alumni, you'll find that most of them yearn for the old DI days. (I lurk on WTAM threads on d2football.com, cause I have a big fascination with that school) Back in the 60's and 70's, they were in the equivalent level of today's non-BCS FBS. Problem is that their athletic budget is less than 5 million dollars per year, and they might have to triple that if they want to just be competitive in FCS.

WTAM used to be part of a I-A Missouri Valley Conference in football. Their rivals once included Louisville, New Mexico State, and OOC, Oklahoma State.

[TexasTerror]

Problem is that their athletic budget is less than 5 million dollars per year, and they might have to triple that if they want to just be competitive in FCS.

That budget is not too far south of Nicholls' budget. Of course, with guarantees and some of the other things afforded Div I schools, they could easily find their way into the SLC with a $6-7M budget.

Tarleton State wants to move up as well, same league.

[Catsfan2]

Whether it is true, or justified, I couldn't say, but many people outside of athletics (e.g., hiring managers, corporate recruiters, high school guidance counselors, etc.) view Division II schools as academically inferior. In a similar fashion, the Division III schools are viewed as academically rigorous. I think a decision to move from D I to D II or D III will encompass a lot more than the athletic budget.

[TheBisonator]

That budget is not too far south of Nicholls' budget. Of course, with guarantees and some of the other things afforded Div I schools, they could easily find their way into the SLC with a $6-7M budget.

Tarleton State wants to move up as well, same league.

I see your point. And the only conference that would probably invite them would be the SLC. But I still think in order to be competitive, they would have to get close to doubling their budget. Hell, NDSU has the 2nd largest budget in the Summit League at just under $14 million this past year, and we've struggled to compete in the conference in a lot of sports (both basketballs and baseball, for example) this year. (Although one of the potential championships was choked away by the volleyball team)

Let's just say that with the 2nd largest budget in the conference, our men's teams finished 7th out of 10 in the all-mens standings for the end of the year.

(And let's not forget with the largest football budget in the MWFC, NDSU football has severely underperformed in the past 2 years)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If UTSA and Texas State go to, say, the WAC, then wouldn't Tarleton State and WTAMU be prime candidates then to take their place? Both play football, too, so you could make a case that the Southland would be strengthened, especially in football.

[TexasTerror]

If UTSA and Texas State go to, say, the WAC, then wouldn't Tarleton State and WTAMU be prime candidates then to take their place? Both play football, too, so you could make a case that the Southland would be strengthened, especially in football.

I've always included Tarleton State near the top of my list, along with Delta State, as possible additions to the SLC.

Though non-football, Houston Baptist would make a great addition, but their facilities severely lag behind most of the LSC and GSC - the homes for Tarleton and DSU, respectively.