Patriot League Recruiting - Colgate

[carney2]

COLGATE = 19

This is bad by Colgate standards. This is bad by Patriot League standards.

QUALITY = 1: Details, and a comparison with prior years:
2010: 1 rated player (4% of the class). Repeat: ONE rated player. No stars from either rating service.
2009: 6 rated recruits (19%); no 2 stars
2008: 10 rated recruits (31%); no 2 stars
2007: 8 rated recruits (28%); no 2 stars

CLASS SIZE = 4: 23 recruits. Transfers are not included in Patsy Ratings.

DISTRIBUTION = 8: No TE. (Is the tight end headed for extinction?)

SPEED = 0: The usual disclaimer: there is limited information for this category, and even that information is questionable.

TRIGGER = 0: 1 QB recruit; no rating from either recruiting service.

JUMBO = 4: 3 OL, 2 @ 270+; 5 DL, 2 @ 250+

NEEDS = 2

DL = 1 (of 5): 5 recruits, 2 Jumbos, none rated. A mercy point has been awarded – for quantity, I guess.
DB = 1 (of 4): 3 recruits, 1 rated.
LB = 0 (of 3): 3 recruits; none rated.

THE COMMITTEE’S ADJUSTMENTS = 0: The Committee considered deductions, but concluded that the Patsy Point totals tell the story. This is the lowest Patsy Point total ever awarded. Ever! A respondent to another post at AGS concluded that Coach Biddle knows what he’s doing and deserves a pass. I’m sure there is a lot of that delusional thinking going on in Hamilton, but, frankly, The Committee would not award a pass to Vince Lombardi for this group.

THE RATINGS RACE With 2 To Go:

81 Lehigh
74 Holy Cross
60 Lafayette
28 Fordham*
19 Colgate
*Fordham has gone full scholarship. Patsy Rating methodology may not be appropriate for scholarship football.

[Andy]

Man, I dont know: the 2 tall WRs, Laskowski, Semanchik, Watts are all players any PL team would welcome. The video of the transfer fullback demands 15 points alone. He scares me. They seem to be going back to speed over size in the LB group.

[carney2]

Man, I dont know: the 2 tall WRs, Laskowski, Semanchik, Watts are all players any PL team would welcome. The video of the transfer fullback demands 15 points alone. He scares me. They seem to be going back to speed over size in the LB group.

Keep it up. You'll talk yourself into it eventually. I'm sure there are some very useful pieces here, but do you honestly believe that once Sullivan and Eachus have moved on there is enough showing in this hand to win the League?

[breezy]

I'm not sure that there is only one rated recruit. From my limited research (which is unfortunately at home), I seem to recall that the California DB, Laskowski and Stup (and perhaps one or two other recruits) were rated by at least one rating service. Also, Scout now seems to be listing recruits at "NR" when they had previously been listed at 1*. I had Stup on my list as being interested in Holy Cross, and he was listed at 1* by Scout and also listed on Yahoo/Rivals (without any stars), where he was shown to have 4.6 speed.

[RichH2]

I did suggest a pass for Gate given Biddle's track record. My feeling is that he sees more here than we do. Maybe he is saving his slots for schollie kids next year.xrolleyesx
I really did not see much in this class . Some solid kids OL and DL . Perhaps there is potential here but I do not see any difference makers in this group.

[Andy]

Keep it up. You'll talk yourself into it eventually. I'm sure there are some very useful pieces here, but do you honestly believe that once Sullivan and Eachus have moved on there is enough showing in this hand to win the League?

Who knows? What did the Patsy system "show" three years ago for the lightly recruited, no stars Sullivan? Biddle just referred to him as one of the best in the history of Colgate football. We need the results of that promised evaluation of the Patsy system. Any day now.....;)

[RichH2]

Sullivan was A-S , dont recall whether he had any ratings

[401ks]

I'm not sure that there is only one rated recruit. From my limited research (which is unfortunately at home), I seem to recall that the California DB, Laskowski and Stup (and perhaps one or two other recruits) were rated by at least one rating service. Also, Scout now seems to be listing recruits at "NR" when they had previously been listed at 1*. I had Stup on my list as being interested in Holy Cross, and he was listed at 1* by Scout and also listed on Yahoo/Rivals (without any stars), where he was shown to have 4.6 speed.

The change at Scout.com is a fact.

A change in the data would appear to require a change in the calculation method.

xtwocentsx

[breezy]

Now at home. My research shows Bellamy listed at Yahoo/Rivals (and ESPN, which Carney does not use); Laskowski listed on Scout (and ESPN), and Stup listed on all three services.

However, as in the past, I defer to the wisdom of Carney and the committee.

(I was relieved to see that QB recruit McCARNEY did not stir any unusual reaction.)

Cornish and Morrison were listed only on ESPN.

[Go...gate]

Carney may have a point - God knows Colgate admissions does not often seem very helpful to Colgate football. This may have been the best Biddle could have done.

[carney2]

Now at home. My research shows Bellamy listed at Yahoo/Rivals (and ESPN, which Carney does not use); Laskowski listed on Scout (and ESPN), and Stup listed on all three services.

However, as in the past, I defer to the wisdom of Carney and the committee.

(I was relieved to see that QB recruit McCARNEY did not stir any unusual reaction.)

Cornish and Morrison were listed only on ESPN.

Would be interested in anything you can supply as to resources. I get neither Laskowski nor Stup in my searches.

[breezy]

This is Laskowski on Scout.com --

http://recruiting.scout.com/a.z?s=73&p=9&c=11&cfg=null&sFirstName=&sLastName=Laskowski&yr=2010


This is Stup on Scout.com --

http://recruiting.scout.com/a.z?s=73&p=9&c=11&cfg=null&sFirstName=&sLastName=Stup&yr=2010


This is Stup on Yahoo/Rivals --

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/recruit-search-results?year=2010&sport_id=1&sport=football&keywords=Stup


Although it has been said often by various posters, thanks again for all your research. The Patsy Ratings have become a spring feature for fans of Patriot League football.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Carney may have a point - God knows Colgate admissions does not often seem very helpful to Colgate football. This may have been the best Biddle could have done.

Biddle's fight against admissions arguably is as tough as it will be against Syracuse in September. But it's not just admissions - it's sniping, hand-wringing tenured faculty members as well. Not all, or even most faculty, but a select few whose voices seem far greater than their numbers. It's the "Swarthmore effect" and it remains pervasive on PL campuses. Unless the least academically-qualified athlete has the measurables to be a full-ride presidential scholar just about anywhere else, they're going to complain.

[RichH2]

Those parts of academia opposed to athletics have been around forever with varying degreesof negative success. I recall when LU deemphsized football in 1963. Unaware of that I came in to play. We had 3 or 4 very good players , afew solid players and lots of walk ons. It took over a decade to recover from that debacle. Dunlap did a magnificent job with very little to start with.
Those same forces are still here.

[jimbo65]

COLGATE = 19

THE RATINGS RACE With 2 To Go:

81 Lehigh
74 Holy Cross
60 Lafayette
28 Fordham*
19 Colgate
*Fordham has gone full scholarship. Patsy Rating methodology may not be appropriate for scholarship football.
I hope you are correct about Fordham. How could be so low giving full scholarships. If not, we'll have to resort to recruiting ex-NFL ers and provide disguises.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I hope you are correct about Fordham. How could be so low giving full scholarships. If not, we'll have to resort to recruiting ex-NFL ers and provide disguises.

I think part of the issue with using the "Patsy Ranking System" (or PRS for short) for a scholarship school is that when you go from "announcing all recruited athletes" to "only announcing those athletes on scholarship" you don't announce everybody in the incoming class. Fordham does not only have 19 bodies entering the program, though that's what they announced: they actually have other bodies taking those slots. Some are partial scholarship players; some are not getting any aid at all; but none of them are rated by the PRS, though they can (and often do) become productive college players.

[Andy]

Sullivan was A-S , dont recall whether he had any ratings

No ratings so no "credit" in the system although he was the NY State POY. As was their QB Pitcher from a few years prior whom I believe didnt do much at gate.

Actually, I'd prefer a good rating from a competent evaluator over HS-performance-based post season awards (the NJ Group 4 AS QB from a few years back stood 5-6 150) so I believe carney is on the right track. It's just that so few of our kids ever actually get evaluated and I'm not sure merely being listed is worth anything at all.

Right now, our best indicator of quality for non-rated kids would be offers (would you agree, Rich), but they're tough to determine.

[carney2]

I hope you are correct about Fordham. How could be so low giving full scholarships. If not, we'll have to resort to recruiting ex-NFL ers and provide disguises.

Any number of explanations:

1. The Patsy Ratings only consider high school recruits.

2. A new scholarship program is focusing on transfers to hit the ground running.

[carney2]

Who knows? What did the Patsy system "show" three years ago for the lightly recruited, no stars Sullivan? Biddle just referred to him as one of the best in the history of Colgate football. We need the results of that promised evaluation of the Patsy system. Any day now.....;)

Sullivan was not rated coming out of high school. So, what are you saying, Andy?

The Patsy Rating system is seriously flawed.

Ratings (the star system) are unreliable at levels below 3 stars.

Recruiting at the Patriot League level is a bit of a crap shoot with a lot of intuition required from the coach/recruiter and a lot of luck and hard work required from the recruits.

All of it is old news. If you have something better - and at least as objective - we're listening.

[carney2]

This is Laskowski on Scout.com --

http://recruiting.scout.com/a.z?s=73&p=9&c=11&cfg=null&sFirstName=&sLastName=Laskowski&yr=2010


This is Stup on Scout.com --

http://recruiting.scout.com/a.z?s=73&p=9&c=11&cfg=null&sFirstName=&sLastName=Stup&yr=2010


This is Stup on Yahoo/Rivals --

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/recruit-search-results?year=2010&sport_id=1&sport=football&keywords=Stup

Although it has been said often by various posters, thanks again for all your research. The Patsy Ratings have become a spring feature for fans of Patriot League football.

Amazing! Live and learn. If you, for instance, search for Robert Stup as the information was released by the Colgate athletic department, you get nothing. If, on the other hand, you search under the diminutive, Bobby Stup, or just Stup, up comes the information you found. I shall recalculate and re-release.

[RichH2]

Andy,

Offers would be an excellent barometer. I have not seriously tracked them but I will add them in to my research as I find them. Very few reliable sources except for very few kids ( Ohio does a great job across the board with offers for kids). Rival and scout for most of our kids list only those schools the kid is interested in not who has offered. It is clear that over the years many unrated recruits are stars and rated kids zip. Going forward I would give less weight to Scout * rating particularly on their HS sites as they appear to be given out like candy. Rivals a bit less so.
ESPN/SCOUT prettygood but do not get many of our kids. ** and up are pretty reliable. Of course if Carney were really serious he could subscribe to one of the scouting combines that our coaches use. I think they go for about a couple of thousand per yr.xrolleyesx

We have talked a bunch about doing a history of classes going back to the 1st yr to see how classes actually performed . I will be glad to help.

[DFW HOYA]

It will be interesting to see how Rivals/Scout numbers play into the Bucknell and Georgetown ratings.

Bucknell has one two-star recruit and three overall on the Rivals scale. Georgetown has one recruit on the Rivals scale (no stars) in 2010 compared with 12 in 2008, a number that led Carney to give the Hoyas 79 points on his 2008 ratings. Of those 12, one was on the two-deep at the end of last season.

So it is the chicken or the egg? Ratings aren't the measure of the man, but in the PL, there are fewer opportunities for diamonds in the rough than other conferences, strictly on depth. If you're signing one rated player in a year, the rest of the recruiting had better be outstanding, but the numbers don't always suggest this. And this is one of the issues the PL leadership doesn't address: it's not as deep as other leagues and that where it suffers in comparison.

[carney2]

REVISED

COLGATE = 25

Even with the revisions: this is bad by Colgate standards; this is bad by Patriot League standards.

QUALITY = 3: Details, and a comparison with prior years:
2010: 3 rated players (13% of the class). No stars from either rating service.
2009: 6 rated recruits (19%); no 2 stars
2008: 10 rated recruits (31%); no 2 stars
2007: 8 rated recruits (28%); no 2 stars

CLASS SIZE = 4: 23 recruits. Transfers are not included in Patsy Ratings.

DISTRIBUTION = 8: No TE. (Is the tight end headed for extinction?)

SPEED = 3: The usual disclaimer: there is limited information for this category, and even that information is questionable.

TRIGGER = 0: 1 recruit; no rating from either recruiting service.

JUMBO = 4: 3 OL, 2 @ 270+; 5 DL, 2 @ 250+

NEEDS = 3

DL = 1 (of 5): 5 recruits, 2 Jumbos, none rated. A mercy point has been awarded – for quantity, I guess.
DB = 1 (of 4): 3 recruits, 1 rated.
LB = 1 (of 3): 3 recruits; 1 rated.

THE COMMITTEE’S ADJUSTMENTS = 0: The Committee still considered deductions, but concluded that the Patsy Point totals tell the story. A respondent to another post at AGS concluded that Coach Biddle knows what he’s doing and deserves a pass. I’m sure there is a lot of that delusional thinking going on in Hamilton, but, frankly, The Committee would not award a pass to Vince Lombardi for this group.

THE RATINGS RACE With 2 To Go:

81 Lehigh
74 Holy Cross
60 Lafayette
28 Fordham*
25 Colgate
*Fordham has gone full scholarship. Patsy Rating methodology may not be appropriate for scholarship football.

[ngineer]

It will be interesting to see how Rivals/Scout numbers play into the Bucknell and Georgetown ratings.

Bucknell has one two-star recruit and three overall on the Rivals scale. Georgetown has one recruit on the Rivals scale (no stars) in 2010 compared with 12 in 2008, a number that led Carney to give the Hoyas 79 points on his 2008 ratings. Of those 12, one was on the two-deep at the end of last season.

So it is the chicken or the egg? Ratings aren't the measure of the man, but in the PL, there are fewer opportunities for diamonds in the rough than other conferences, strictly on depth. If you're signing one rated player in a year, the rest of the recruiting had better be outstanding, but the numbers don't always suggest this. And this is one of the issues the PL leadership doesn't address: it's not as deep as other leagues and that where it suffers in comparison.

That is the primary 'separator' between the PL and other FCS conferences--Depth. Frequently, it is in the second half when we can keep up or have the inability to rally against most CAA or SoCon teams. I remember our great game at Delaware a few years back when we were leading by two TDs in the fourth quarter, only to lose in OT. I remember Lembo lamenting that our inability to rotate fresher players, without losing much in ability, was the single biggest factor in not being able to consistently play at that level. We can win the occasional game, but not on a weekly basis. Football is an attrition game. Lots of injuries, and if you don't have the depth with similar skill, it will fall apart.

[breezy]

When Coach Gilmore arrived at Holy Cross, he stated that one major goal was to improve the depth of the team. He has made significant progress in that area, and it is one of the primary reasons that HC has risen to the top level in the Patriot League. I know there are some who feel that HC's rise was due solely to the outstanding Dom Randolph, and there is no denying that he was a major talent in a key position. However, I believe that HC will continue to compete for the PL title even without Randolph because there is much better depth today at each position than was the case several years ago.

[RichH2]

Depth will continue to be a problem for all PL. Whether schollies will alleviate issue not definite as there remain many other restrictions. AI, no redshirts , except medical , size, $$ , facilities etc
None of us could compete weekly in the CAA on a year to year basis. We can win occasionally and on occasion we have a team that could challenge in CAA or SoCon. Schollies will raise the overall talent level and hopefully depth.
Ratings are never an exact science and the Patsy are certainly inexact given the slim available comparisons that Carney can use. Compare that however to National ratings for BCS recruits, they do not appear to me to be any more successful

[Andy]

Depth will continue to be a problem for all PL. Whether schollies will alleviate issue not definite as there remain many other restrictions. AI, no redshirts , except medical , size, $$ , facilities etc
None of us could compete weekly in the CAA on a year to year basis. We can win occasionally and on occasion we have a team that could challenge in CAA or SoCon. Schollies will raise the overall talent level and hopefully depth.
Ratings are never an exact science and the Patsy are certainly inexact given the slim available comparisons that Carney can use. Compare that however to National ratings for BCS recruits, they do not appear to me to be any more successful

If there is a high correlation between a multi "star rating" and desirability/recruiting interest/competition, then any system that tallies the stars should indicate a good or successful recruiting year. (having won the battles) That IS different from predicting success on the field. I look to the Patsys and such as indicators of successful recruiting, but as we all agree, we are at a disadvantage in trying to do that in the PL because so few of our kids are rated.

[colorless raider]

And the ones that are rated are often offered scholarships OR don't make the AI hurdle. Tough.