One More Time: PL Scholarships

[carney2]

Keith Groller the Lehigh beat writer for the Alientown paper, said today that at Lembo's first news conference at Elon, he stated that Lehigh gave out over $2 million in "need based" scholarship aid to football recruits last year, and that the total came to over 50 football scholarship equivalencies. He was, of course, trying to make the point that he is not really new to "scholarship recruiting," but that he was grateful that he would no longer have to concern himself with the family's income when offering a scholarship.

Anyway, many of you guys are into this a lot further than I, and even foresee football scholarships in the PL in the near future. My question is: How do the other PL schools stack up with that "50+" equivalency figure at Lehigh?

[OL FU]

What are the income limitations for scholarships?
Are they low enough that they actually limit recruiting?

Sorry I am sure this has been discussed before but I either don't remember or did not see.

PL schools are not cheap so from a common sense standpoint it would not be hard to justify some sort of assistance for most students.

FU is 20K+ per year and I have heard in the past that up to 60% of the student body receives some sort of financil aid.

[colgate13]

My question is: How do the other PL schools stack up with that "50+" equivalency figure at Lehigh?

Most are equal. Take a wild guess at which programs are not!

Colgate's in the 55 range. I think everyone else is close to 50 if not as high as Colgate.

The only outlier is Georgetown, who I think is roughtly half of what everyone else is.

[colgate13]

What are the income limitations for scholarships?
Are they low enough that they actually limit recruiting?

Sorry I am sure this has been discussed before but I either don't remember or did not see.

PL schools are not cheap so from a common sense standpoint it would not be hard to justify some sort of assistance for most students.

FU is 20K+ per year and I have heard in the past that up to 60% of the student body receives some sort of financil aid.

There is no 'limit' per se. Students with income ranges from $0-$225K or more can qualify for aid. PL schools are very expensive but they also offer some of the most financial aid of all schools.

I've heard it on more than one occasion that the biggest hurdle for recruiting in the PL is not the lack of traditional scholarships but rather the Academic Index - which is the PL's way of saying who you can recruit academically to your school. The better your school's SATs and GPA and class rank, the better your recruit has to be academically. THat is not to say that a move to traditional football scholarships wouldn't help the PL. Right now we miss a chunk of families who make a lot of money but not so much money that a $40K check is not a big deal. Usually families making less than $100K can get enough aid that the cost isn't so much that it scares them away to a scholarship. It's that $100K-$200K group that are being asked to pay alot and dont want to.

[blukeys]

Oh no not Again! :deadhorse :deadhorse

I lived in the same apartment building with 2 UD linemen during UD's "Needs grant" era. Their families to all appearances were solidly upper middle class.

I know that Colgate 13 will be here with a more detailed information but in a extremely simplified manner the process is close to this.

A candidate's family fills out a financial statement that determines the level of aid the player can get. This can be in the form of grants or loans and in most cases is in the form of loans. As stated earlier most Private school students receive some form of aid typically loans.

The difference between an athlete and a non athlete is that where a regular student may qualify for a $15,000 loan with of course the requirement to pay it back, the athlete is given a "grant" to cover the cost of the loan and not have to pay it back.

Lembo's comments just reiterates the point of many that the Needs grants programs are not as significantly different from scholarship programs as some in the media would have you believe.

[blukeys]

There is no 'limit' per se. Students with income ranges from $0-$225K or more can qualify for aid. PL schools are very expensive but they also offer some of the most financial aid of all schools.

I've heard it on more than one occasion that the biggest hurdle for recruiting in the PL is not the lack of traditional scholarships but rather the Academic Index - which is the PL's way of saying who you can recruit academically to your school. The better your school's SATs and GPA and class rank, the better your recruit has to be academically. THat is not to say that a move to traditional football scholarships wouldn't help the PL. Right now we miss a chunk of families who make a lot of money but not so much money that a $40K check is not a big deal. Usually families making less than $100K can get enough aid that the cost isn't so much that it scares them away to a scholarship. It's that $100K-$200K group that are being asked to pay alot and dont want to.

Figures 13 beat me to it.

I think scholarships would help PL some but not as much as many PL fans think. UD switched to scholarships in the 80's and this was not a great decade for the program.

[OL FU]

Figures 13 beat me to it.

I think scholarships would help PL some but not as much as many PL fans think. UD switched to scholarships in the 80's and this was not a great decade for the program.

But the '80's also coincided with the move form DII to DI-AA?

[Fordham]

gate13 - as always, great info. a few questions that i wonder if you know the answers to:

*is aid gauranteed for 4 years or can it change?

*what kind of paperwork load is placed on the families to get financial aid v. getting a scholarship?

*are portions of scholarships given out to athletes? it's my understanding that need based aid allows PL schools to give aid out to more numbers of kids since the amounts may not add up to 100% of tuition.

*it's also my sense that alot of those families that make $100K that get most of the tuition covered on need based aid are still much more likely to opt for the scholarship route since they won't have to pay anything v. even a nominal amount. True (iyo)?

*other than tuition, what is covered in a traditional full-ride scholarship offer? Books, meal plan, housing, etc.? follow-up (assuming more than just tuition is included), for a $30K per year scholarship, what is average annual total cost of that scholarship?

Interesting thread ... as always.

[blukeys]

But the '80's also coincided with the move form DII to DI-AA?


First I-AA Season was 1980. Delaware made the playoffs that year and went to the championship game in 1982 losing to E. Kentucky 17-14 using the needs grants system.

Delaware switched to scholarships upon their entry into the Yankee Conference as it was a conference requirement.

Delaware would have continued to do well with the grants system in I-AA if they chose to use it. I'm glad they switched but the windfall of victories that many UD fans thought would occur with the switch didn't happen. There were also some incredibly stupid decisions made by the Board of Trustees at this time that effected the football program that were subsequently reversed.

[carney2]

I've heard it on more than one occasion that the biggest hurdle for recruiting in the PL is not the lack of traditional scholarships but rather the Academic Index - which is the PL's way of saying who you can recruit academically to your school. The better your school's SATs and GPA and class rank, the better your recruit has to be academically.

Let me read between the lines here:

You are saying that, even with scholarships, PL talent levels will not be increased appreciably. Is that correct?

You are also saying that the PL needs to be very careful about any schools considered for membership because lower academic standards would potentially lead to a huge advantage in athletic recruiting. Schools like Marist and Duquesne, for instance, would not be a match. I could never understand the Towson thing.

[colgate13]

*is aid gauranteed for 4 years or can it change?

Can and does change every year. That's why it is need based. YOu have to reapply each year. If things change in the family, aid goes up or down.


*what kind of paperwork load is placed on the families to get financial aid v. getting a scholarship?

Not too bad and IMO slightly more than just getting a scholarship. Mostly it is two forms and some taxes. Scholarships have their forms too though, mostly just reading and signing as opposed to filling out with personal information. The need based just hits you on the front end with a lot of schools


*are portions of scholarships given out to athletes? it's my understanding that need based aid allows PL schools to give aid out to more numbers of kids since the amounts may not add up to 100% of tuition.

No difference between need based and scholarship here. Schools can give 50% or 60% or 100% scholarships. So in the current scheme, say a school has 15 need based scholarships to divide among 20 kids. The same thing can happen with regular scholarships.


*it's also my sense that alot of those families that make $100K that get most of the tuition covered on need based aid are still much more likely to opt for the scholarship route since they won't have to pay anything v. even a nominal amount. True (iyo)?

Not true IMO. You have to go to a higher income than that usually, more like $120K plus. Do a calculation yourself online somewhere like at the College Board. A family making $80-$100K is being asked to pay something like maybe $10-$12k per year and getting $30K plus in need based scholarship. That price is in line with or cheaper than a state school. A coach can sell parents on paying 1/4 the price of an education at a PL school fairly well. It's when they're being asked to pay $20K or more that the drop off is noticeable.

I know for a fact of some VERY good players at Colgate in the past who turned down scholarships to pay $10K a year. Most families aren't necessarily looking for an all and all out free ride at a PL school. They just want some help to make it affordable.


*other than tuition, what is covered in a traditional full-ride scholarship offer? Books, meal plan, housing, etc.?

Scholarships can only cover tuition, fees, meal plan, housing and books. No personal expenses whatsoever. There is no stipulation on personal expenses like that with need based scholarships.


follow-up (assuming more than just tuition is included), for a $30K per year scholarship, what is average annual total cost of that scholarship?

Not sure I get the question here.

[colgate13]

You are saying that, even with scholarships, PL talent levels will not be increased appreciably. Is that correct?

Not saying that at all. I'm just saying don't expect them to be a windfall of superstars.

The real key with scholarships as they pertain to the PL is that they can allow you to recruit a better student (sell that one to Art!). Let's all be honest about the demographics here: generally the richer you are, the better ON PAPER you appear to be academically - whether it's test prep, private schools, more parent involvement (or grade inflation!). There are plenty of kids who are perfect academically for the PL but are either a) going to the Ivy because of academic prestige or b) going to the A-10/SoCon/I-A etc because of the scholarship offer. They are not sold on paying $170-$180K on a school when someplace like say, W&M or JMU or Northeastern is free or that $180K gets them Harvard.

PL scholarships opens up about a third of the recruiting pool that has generally been off limits to us. We will get some better players for sure; the place you will notice it is in depth mostly. We have some great stars here already. The supporting cast will improve the most IMO.

But to be certain, the other ingredients must be in place for a football program to succeed, with or without scholarships. They are not a band aid or a quick fix. Programs like Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette would benefit most off the bat from scholarships because of their recent history of success and appparent support from their institutions. Everyone else will benefit too, but they will need support from other areas too.


You are also saying that the PL needs to be very careful about any schools considered for membership because lower academic standards would potentially lead to a huge advantage in athletic recruiting. Schools like Marist and Duquesne, for instance, would not be a match. I could never understand the Towson thing.

Yes and no. Lower standards tend to also mean lower ranking/perceived academic strength. The recruiting goes both ways in this case. The really good football player can be both really smart and average. The average kid maybe can't get into LC, but he could as Marist. The really smart kid can get into both, but would rather go to the 'better' school in LC.

Again, there are many pieces to the puzzle. If winning the PL was inversely proportional to Academic Index strength, Fordham would be on top and Colgate (next to Georgetown) would be on bottom. It's just not that simple.

[Fordham]

gate13 - thanks. After re-reading, I worded that last one poorly so it sounds more like a brain teaser - what I meant was 'what is the full cost of a scholarship at a school w/$30K/year tuition'. I often see the number for tuition thrown out as the cost of a scholarship by people and even though it's the biggest part of the number, the other stuff adds up too.

I also wonder if you have 20 full rides given to Colgate, how many scholarships do you get at a state school like Towson (just using them as an example of a state school) for the same amount of money? Not asking for the answer to this since it's something that can clearly be done with some research but it's interesting.

Also, the uncertainty over whether or not the need based aid will be consistent for all 4 years is something that must turn parents off, no?

[blukeys]

Not saying that at all. I'm just saying don't expect them to be a windfall of superstars........................................ .....................

The supporting cast will improve the most IMO.

But to be certain, the other ingredients must be in place for a football program to succeed, with or without scholarships. They are not a band aid or a quick fix. Programs like Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette would benefit most off the bat from scholarships because of their recent history of success and appparent support from their institutions. Everyone else will benefit too, but they will need support from other areas too.


That is pretty much what I have seen from the Delaware example. I also think that in the long term scholarships make the overall conference more competitive with the lower teams rising the most. Certain schools just seem to have a real handle on how to recruit successfully in a needs grant environment.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Fordham,

I don't have the specific numbers for you and besides the number would vary depending on the tuition at each respective state university. UNH has higher tuition than most public and hence wouldn't get as much "bang for the buck" as a lower cost public peer. But, there's no doubt that even UNH would get a few more scholarships for the same amount of money because its tuition is still lower than at PL schools.

It is my understanding that well over a decade and a half ago, the beancounters in NH thought they could save a boatload of money if UNH's football program moved to the Patriot League (or whatever version of it existed at the time). Like so many do, they didn't truly understand how the equivalencies were doled out and that expenses really wouldn't have been decreased. And it is my understanding that the "PL teams" wanted no part of a "State U." because they could get that "more bang for the same buck". Even one such as UNH that can't rely on in-state kids for their football program and has high tuition was viewed as having an unfair advantage.

[colgate13]

'what is the full cost of a scholarship at a school w/$30K/year tuition'. I often see the number for tuition thrown out as the cost of a scholarship by people and even though it's the biggest part of the number, the other stuff adds up too.

For Colgate, it would be over $41,000 this current year. You have to look at something called the 'cost of attendance' and then take out the personal expenses. Looking at Fordham (http://www.fordham.edu/Tuition__Financial_A/Tuition_Rates__Fees_/Cost_of_Attendance_B_15956.html), it appears a full scholarship this year would be around $40,000. You have to take out the Travel and Misc expenses in the cost of attendance and you're within $1,000 + or - of a full scholarship.


I also wonder if you have 20 full rides given to Colgate, how many scholarships do you get at a state school like Towson (just using them as an example of a state school) for the same amount of money? Not asking for the answer to this since it's something that can clearly be done with some research but it's interesting.

No question it is cheaper to fund at a state school, but keep in mind the different tuition costs for out of state students. I bet our W&M friends can speak to the scholarship costs of in-state vs. out of state. (edit: or UNH!)


Also, the uncertainty over whether or not the need based aid will be consistent for all 4 years is something that must turn parents off, no?

kind of; but most if not all PL schools make the committment to 'meet your demonstrated need' for all four years, basically saying that if your situation stays the same, your aid will.

In reality though, most families are ignorant to the details and don't read the fine print!

[carney2]

I've read all of this stuff. My head hurts. Sorry I asked.

[henfan]

I've said it before and I'll say it yet again, an equivalancy is an equivalancy is an equivalancy. Don't care if your school calls it an athletic scholarship, need-based aid or the Purple Nurple Victory Grant. In the end, it ends up being the same thing: money awarded to a student-athlete for them to study and play X sport. Both the athletic scholarship and financial grant are renewable after each school year and the grantee must meet certain academic (and, in the case of need-based equivalancies, financial) requirements to continue to be eligible. The school determines the amount of academic and financial flexibility (within reason) it will allow in dolling out those grants. Some schools are less flexible than others.

An old UD coach used these terms to explain the philosophy behind equivalancies based on (financial) need. "We need a quarterback. We need a running back. We go out and get those players."

[DFW HOYA]

Most are equal. Take a wild guess at which programs are not! The only outlier is Georgetown, who I think is roughtly half of what everyone else is.

Not even close to half.

[colgate13]

Not even close to half.

In total, I'll agree. But the most recent trend puts them higher.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I've said it before and I'll say it yet again, an equivalancy is an equivalancy is an equivalancy. Don't care if your school calls it an athletic scholarship, need-based aid or the Purple Nurple Victory Grant. In the end, it ends up being the same thing: money awarded to a student-athlete for them to study and play X sport. ... The school determines the amount of academic and financial flexibility (within reason) it will allow in dolling out those grants. Some schools are less flexible than others....

Regarding on your point, here's the paradox. When "true" free rides were given in basketball in the PL, they actually found that the academic standing of the athletes they recruited acutally went up instead of down. By allowing scholarships, the school was actually allowed to get a larger pool of athletes - athletes who actually have a higher athletic profile. So "grants" and "full schollies" ARE different.

(This approach is rife with landmines - new regulations and fact-checking that's necessary - witness the Joe Knight debacle at Lehigh. However, to my knowlege Knight's not a dummy, and he's hacking it at Lehigh currently, or else he wouldn't be eligible to play this year at all.)

In a nutshell: PL schools are basically going after Ivy league-style academic players, which already limits their flexibility in who they can recruit. Offering "full rides" would actually increase the pool of players that they could get. There will always be players and students who want the school to pay 100% and not 90%. With schollies, you'll get the 90%-ers as well as the 100%-ers.

[OL FU]

I assume that equivalencies are given in order to make sure that the colleges don't turn into football machines (not the right phrase I realize). Therefore a school does not want to jeopardize its academic integrity in order to fill up the roster with great but dumb athletes. So in order to provide for competitiveness they align themselves with other schools with similar philosphies. Correct?

Seems to be that is pretty much a BS way of doing it. If that is the purpose just use the academic standard talked about earlier and let the individual institutions decide how the scholarships are handed out. I realize that different schools will have different academic standards but that is life. I would guess from the list I have seen all of the schools in the PL have high standards so a variation here and there is not going to matter much.

As in bluekey's signature line and so aptly stated by my favorite existential philosopher

This college is a failure! The trouble is, we're neglecting football for education!!
Professor Quincy Adams Wagstaff in "Horsefeathers"

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I assume that equivalencies are given in order to make sure that the colleges don't turn into football machines (not the right phrase I realize). Therefore a school does not want to jeopardize its academic integrity in order to fill up the roster with great but dumb athletes. So in order to provide for competitiveness they align themselves with other schools with similar philosphies. Correct?

That's the "theory". Of course, Duke and N.C. St. coexist peacefully in the ACC, and last I checked Duke didn't "dumb down" their academic standards.

I don't know if it's obvious, but I'm of the school that should Lehigh all of a sudden offer classic "scholarships", we're not going to all-of-a-sudden have Dexter Manley's and Ken Stabler's running on our football fields. I want the Patriot League to always be a league with the highest academic reputation, and I don't think full schollies do that.

[kardplayer]

I assume that equivalencies are given in order to make sure that the colleges don't turn into football machines (not the right phrase I realize). Therefore a school does not want to jeopardize its academic integrity in order to fill up the roster with great but dumb athletes. So in order to provide for competitiveness they align themselves with other schools with similar philosphies. Correct?

Seems to be that is pretty much a BS way of doing it. If that is the purpose just use the academic standard talked about earlier and let the individual institutions decide how the scholarships are handed out. I realize that different schools will have different academic standards but that is life. I would guess from the list I have seen all of the schools in the PL have high standards so a variation here and there is not going to matter much.

As in bluekey's signature line and so aptly stated by my favorite existential philosopher

This college is a failure! The trouble is, we're neglecting football for education!!
Professor Quincy Adams Wagstaff in "Horsefeathers"

I think part of it in the PL is just that the overall philosophy of giving money to students is to give to the neediest, not the wealthiest. This just keeps the student-athletes in line with the general population.

To that point though, I have no idea how the Violin/Math/Chemical Engineering/Drama Scholarships are handled at PL schools.

[OL FU]

That's the "theory". Of course, Duke and N.C. St. coexist peacefully in the ACC, and last I checked Duke didn't "dumb down" their academic standards.

I don't know if it's obvious, but I'm of the school that should Lehigh all of a sudden offer classic "scholarships", we're not going to all-of-a-sudden have Dexter Manley's and Ken Stabler's running on our football fields. I want the Patriot League to always be a league with the highest academic reputation, and I don't think full schollies do that.

I don't think full schollies detract from it either. Without them the perception is what you are creating but there is no reason a school cannot maintain its academic requirements with athletic scholarships.

This is a guess and only a guess. I imagine that Furman's academic requirements for athletic scholarships are below their typical academic requirements (but still higher than most). But I am not sure that is a bad thing.

[OL FU]

I think part of it in the PL is just that the overall philosophy of giving money to students is to give to the neediest, not the wealthiest. This just keeps the student-athletes in line with the general population.

To that point though, I have no idea how the Violin/Math/Chemical Engineering/Drama Scholarships are handled at PL schools.

Interesting point, I think most private schools provide scholarships for financial reasons or for the extremely talented in their field. It is understandable that chemistry and art are academic, while football is not, in nature. It just seems strange to an old southern boy

[Doc QB]

Henfan had it the most simple and most correct. When I played at Lehigh, they were allowing 13 equivs a year (13 x $22,000K), the most allowed by PL rules. I knew guys getting the whole boat, or some fraction thereof (tuition, like me). It allowed me to pick them between official vists to Richmond, JMU, W&M, URI, and Holy Cross (just coming OFF full unrestricted rides, but far fewer equivs than Lehigh at the time). UPenn and Cornell seemed like just regular aid at the time, or they did not want to pony up grant only aid for me.

Over time, the number of equivs may have increased, as in Lembo news comment that he had "around 50 to give at LU." Over all, like it or not PL-folks, the A-10 may still appeal more to the better I-AA players, and those schools (sorry A-10 guys) are just a hair below PL's academic requirements, and can get more players. However, by seeing increasing competitivenss with PL versus the A-10, I can not help but feel it is due not only to broader geographic recruiting boundries the PL now explores, but to having more equivs to burn with the expanding recruiting travel budgets. An article a fews years back in Bethlehem's Globe Times rag detailed who spends the most, and it COMPLETELY correlated with success on the field. Interesting post, overall.

[Marcus Garvey]

However, by seeing increasing competitivenss with PL versus the A-10, I can not help but feel it is due not only to broader geographic recruiting boundries the PL now explores, but to having more equivs to burn with the expanding recruiting travel budgets. An article a fews years back in Bethlehem's Globe Times rag detailed who spends the most, and it COMPLETELY correlated with success on the field. Interesting post, overall.

Amen about the recruiting boundries. That's how the Ivy stays competitive with the Patriot, espeicially based upon your Cornell and Penn comments. Let's face it, the Ivies have a much larger national reach than any PL school. If I were to ask 10 high school seniors in Tucson who the PL schools were, I'd get a blank look from at least 8 of them, but I'm sure they'd be able to name at least half the Ivies.

BTW, that's got to be the first time I've seen the Globe Times mentioned on this board.... When I moved out here and first read the Arizona Daily Star, the first paper I compared it to was the GT.