Holy Cross FB Games Without a Radio Home

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://s2.excoboard.com/Crossports/33741/2186271?page=1#6766620


Word out of Worcester today is that 100.1 FM "The Pike" will not carry Holy Cross athletic events this season. It will be purely music and Patriots for the station.

Holy Cross may move back to WTAG, but it is unclear.

The Crusaders are looking for a new home for broadcasts, just not sure where that may be.

Sad day for Holy Cross. Hopefully their broadcast team will find a new home. Personally I was a big fan of their broadcasts especially since they were free and enabled me to follow games that I couldn't get for free elsewhere.

[DFW HOYA]

Only four of the six PL schools with AM or FM coverage? Not good.

[Franks Tanks]

Its fine for the schools that have fans and radio coverage. Once again this is a Georgetown problem is not a Patriot League problem.

[DFW HOYA]

Once again this is a Georgetown problem is not a Patriot League problem.

If HC retreats to an Internet only broadcast like GU it is a Patriot League problem. Minimizing local publicity and awareness cannot help but impact attendance and general interest.

Maybe if the league would take a peek outside the Allentown-Easton corridor, they'd see the opportunity to build and grow, and radio and TV broadcasts are one way to do so.

[Pard94]

If HC retreats to an Internet only broadcast like GU it is a Patriot League problem. Minimizing local publicity and awareness cannot help but impact attendance and general interest.

Maybe if the league would take a peek outside the Allentown-Easton corridor, they'd see the opportunity to build and grow, and radio and TV broadcasts are one way to do so.


I have no idea about the inner workings of radio/TV contracts but I do believe Lafayette has one hell of a package which includes radio coverage, interent coverage and TV for every single game. This, as I understand it, was achieved through the sole efforts of the college. While it would be great if all PL schools had such coverage I do believe the responsibility lies squarely at the feet of the colleges/universites. Again, in a perfect world, sure...let the league negotiate league wide media coverage. In reality I have to imagne HC's or GU's media coverage is pretty far down on the list of league priorities.

[Franks Tanks]

If HC retreats to an Internet only broadcast like GU it is a Patriot League problem. Minimizing local publicity and awareness cannot help but impact attendance and general interest.

Maybe if the league would take a peek outside the Allentown-Easton corridor, they'd see the opportunity to build and grow, and radio and TV broadcasts are one way to do so.

I believe Holy Cross games are on local TV. This appears to be a station changing priorities, and nothing indicates HC will be without a radio home.

It is not the PL's job to generate local interest in Georgetown football.

[Sader87]

There's no interest for the PL in the Worcester/CMass area, thus no local radio coverage....and yes, we should have joined the Big East.

[Franks Tanks]

There's no interest for the PL in the Worcester/CMass area, thus no local radio coverage....and yes, we should have joined the Big East.

Yup it's all the Patriot League's fault. Do you think a FB game againt Maine in Worshester instead of Lehigh would make Holy Cross the talk of the town?? No- people dont really care about FCS football in New England whether it Ivy, CAA, or PL football.

[DFW HOYA]

It is not the PL's job to generate local interest in Georgetown football.

It is, however, the PL's job to generate interest in PL football, to which it has done next to nothing in the Washington area to facilitate this. The lack of awareness of the league in Washington (for Georgetown or for AU in other sports) is minimal and the league does not seem to know how to build its brand identity in markets larger than, say, Lewisburg and Hamilton.

The skeptic in me says the PL sees Georgetown as six opponent wins, autobid insurance, and little else. The optimist says the PL hasn't figured out how to leverage a nationally known university within its own framework to its ultimate benefit.

[Franks Tanks]

It is, however, the PL's job to generate interest in PL football, to which it has done next to nothing in the Washington area to facilitate this. The lack of awareness of the league in Washington (for Georgetown or for AU in other sports) is minimal and the league does not seem to know how to build its brand identity in markets larger than, say, Lewisburg and Hamilton.

The skeptic in me says the PL sees Georgetown as six opponent wins, autobid insurance, and little else. The optimist says the PL hasn't figured out how to leverage a nationally known university within its own framework to its ultimate benefit.

Perhaps because marketing efforts would be futile. How is Ivy league football doing in NYC and Philly? Not quite bringing in the fans and media attention. FCS football is a tough draw in the major NE cities.

Georgetown cant even finish a stadium, but you want the PL to in essence advertise Georgetown football within the framework of the PL? Doesnt sound like a good ROI to me.

Their has to be some interest in Georgetown football before "Patriot League" football can be branded in DC.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Perhaps because marketing efforts would be futile. How is Ivy league football doing in NYC and Philly? Not quite bringing in the fans and media attention. FCS football is a tough draw in the major NE cities.

This is circular logic. "Penn football doesn't draw well. Therefore, marketing them is futile. Since marketing sucks for Penn, they don't draw well."

Marketing football in markets where there is a lot of competition is a challenge for sure. But it's not futile. Plenty can be done IMO, with some creativity.

[Franks Tanks]

This is circular logic. "Penn football doesn't draw well. Therefore, marketing them is futile. Since marketing sucks for Penn, they don't draw well."

Marketing football in markets where there is a lot of competition is a challenge for sure. But it's not futile. Plenty can be done IMO, with some creativity.

But I didnt say what you say I said! Marketing may not be futile but it will produce limited ROI IMO. TV or radio adds are more expensive in D.C, NYC, or Philly and it has been demonstarted over and over that these markets arent the best for FCS football. The national champs dont even draw well! A tremendous marketing push will put buts in the seats, but is it worth the expense??

[Sader87]

People aren't going to listen/watch HC in great #'s anymore but they would be bigger #'s for games against UMaine, UNH, Villanova et.al. than PL games.

The PL brand is absolutely non-existent in Massachusetts, just as I'm sure the average Lehigh Valley dweller has probably never ventured to Worcester in his or her life.

[ngineer]

A good product will produce people in the seats. Lafayette has shown that with their improvement over the past 6 years. Similarly, Lehigh's recent slump has resulted in 30% less fans in the stands. In today's environment and competition for attention, a competitive team that is fun to watch will attract sufficient fans. Realize, the PL schools are small so the student base and what alumni still live in the region of the school won't be sufficient to justify a lot of media coverage. There has to be a greater interest from the community or it won't happen (unless the school wants to underwrite the exposure).

[Sader87]

HC's attendence has dropped ever since it joined the PL....we could win 50 PL football games in a row and it wouldn't matter.

The PL has basically killed interest for HC football in Massachusetts.

[Franks Tanks]

HC's attendence has dropped ever since it joined the PL....we could win 50 PL football games in a row and it wouldn't matter.

The PL has basically killed interest for HC football in Massachusetts.

I would be willing to wager that attendance at Harvard, Yale, Brown, and Dartmouth has decreased at a similar or greater rate. Its not the PL, FCS football in the NE area is just not the event it once was.

You are really pathetic with your critiques of the PL. Has the Horizon league held Butler back from making the Final Four? Has the WAC made it impossible for Boise State to gain a national rep? Yes league affiliation is important and can have certain benefits and drawbacks, but it is ultimately up to the individual school to get the job done. You can have great teams from mediocre leagues, and terrible teams in great leagues. You are basically saying "its not us its them", when it is all you. Holy Cross can be a relevant as they want to be while maintaining PL membership.

[Ken_Z]

HC's attendence has dropped ever since it joined the PL....we could win 50 PL football games in a row and it wouldn't matter.

The PL has basically killed interest for HC football in Massachusetts.


HC should leave the PL. you have so many better options i don't understand why you don't just do it immediately. of course the rest of the league would suffer, but it is unfair of us to continue to hold HC back from its destiny of national prominence.

[DFW HOYA]

HC should leave the PL. you have so many better options i don't understand why you don't just do it immediately. of course the rest of the league would suffer, but it is unfair of us to continue to hold HC back from its destiny of national prominence.

The PL needs HC, Fordham, yes, even Georgetown---it can't be a four team league.

More than any PL fan base, there are those at HC who remember better days at Fitton Field when the product was not as watered down as it is today. In 1980, while Lafayette was scheduling Davidson and the Merchant Marine Academy, while Bucknell was playing Slippery Rock and West Chester, and Georgetown was playing on the roof of the fitness center against Washington & Lee, here was Holy Cross' non-Ivy opponent schedule:

Rhode Island
Army
Colgate
UConn
UMass
Villanova
Boston College

Is there some "good old days" syndrome among some HC fans? Sure. But it is easier to stomach today's PL football schedules if you never knew better, than for those 2,897 people show up to see HC play Sacred Heart and remember when Holy Cross' JV wouldn't play Sacred Heart.

[Franks Tanks]

The PL needs HC, Fordham, yes, even Georgetown---it can't be a four team league.

More than any PL fan base, there are those at HC who remember better days at Fitton Field when the product was not as watered down as it is today. In 1980, while Lafayette was scheduling Davidson and the Merchant Marine Academy, while Bucknell was playing Slippery Rock and West Chester, and Georgetown was playing on the roof of the fitness center against Washington & Lee, here was Holy Cross' non-Ivy opponent schedule:

Rhode Island
Army
Colgate
UConn
UMass
Villanova
Boston College

Is there some "good old days" syndrome among some HC fans? Sure. But it is easier to stomach today's PL football schedules if you never knew better, than for those 2,897 people show up to see HC play Sacred Heart and remember when Holy Cross' JV wouldn't play Sacred Heart.

In 1980 Lafayette was also scheduling I-A Penn, Colgate and Columbia as well as Maine and UNH. Lafayette played Rhode Island and Army in 1982. Holy Cross certainly had a better schedule than Lafayette in th early 80's, but the divide isnt as drastic as you would make it appear.

Lafayette is still Rutger's 3rd most played opponent after Princeton and Lehigh (Lehigh played Rutgers once or twice more). Lafayette, Lehigh, and Princeton dont blab on constantly about playing Rutgers like in the old days. We realize times have changed, so much Holy Cross.

[grayghost06]

Just curious. Do you (or anyone else) happen to know what HC was drawing to Fitton in the 80s? I know they filled the place up for BC games, but have no idea what they drew for others or averaged per season. There were some extremely talented teams back then, even National Championship caliber had they been allowed to play.

[Franks Tanks]

Just curious. Do you (or anyone else) happen to know what HC was drawing to Fitton in the 80s? I know they filled the place up for BC games, but have no idea what they drew for others or averaged per season. There were some extremely talented teams back then, even National Championship caliber had they been allowed to play.

I believe they would get 10-15 k for a normal game at Fitton in the 80's. The Ivies had that kind of attendance as well.

[carney2]

Only four of the six PL schools with AM or FM coverage? Not good.

It's 7, dammit. I wish people weren't so all-fired anxious to show Fordham the door.

[DFW HOYA]

Duly noted--the Fordham people seem to have a foot out the door already, though.

[UAalum72]

I believe they would get 10-15 k for a normal game at Fitton in the 80's. The Ivies had that kind of attendance as well.
Ivy League attendance averaged 13-15,000 in the mid-80s (league games only, down from 20,000 in the 50s and 60s). For the last five years they've been under 10,000 (all games).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

People aren't going to listen/watch HC in great #'s anymore but they would be bigger #'s for games against UMaine, UNH, Villanova et.al. than PL games.

The PL brand is absolutely non-existent in Massachusetts, just as I'm sure the average Lehigh Valley dweller has probably never ventured to Worcester in his or her life.

The problem is the following.

In the 1970s and 1980s there was a wide swathe of schools in Mass:

Holy Cross, BC, Harvard ("big-time". BC and HC were independents)
UMass, BU, Northeastern ("Yankee Conference")
NESCAC ("Little Three")

You had big-time football, medium local-area football, and the "little three". You had pretty much whatever level of football you liked - and, crucially, you had important games at every level going into November (with the Harvard/Yale and BC/HC games closing the schedule every year).

Fast forward to 2010. Now you have:

BC ("big time", with Virginia schools as their closest rivals)
Harvard ("Ivy", insulated from the rest of Division I)
UMass ("CAA", plays some local teams but play a lot of Virginia schools)
HC ("Patriot", plays some local teams out-of-conference but play a lot of Pennsylvania schools)
NESCAC ("Little Three")

There is no theme to the pudding that is Massachusetts football. BU and Northeastern's choice to abandon football crippled everything, for starters, but all the Division I Mass. schools suffer since they have zero regional rivalries. A BC/UNC game or HC/Georgetown game was never going to get as much interest as a BC/HC game.

BC, Harvard, UMass and HC are pursuing four very, very different athletic paths with three sprawled-out football conferences (ACC, Patriot, CAA) and one insular conference (Ivy). You say the PL brand is non-existent in Mass, but I'd say all the brands - CAA, ACC, Ivy AND Patriot - are "non-existent". The challenge the Patriot League has and the ACC has in Mass. is the same - on a different scale, sure, but the same nonetheless.

[Sader87]

I believe they would get 10-15 k for a normal game at Fitton in the 80's. The Ivies had that kind of attendance as well.

I don't have the hard figures but I would guess HC averaged closer to 15K than 10K throughout the 80's. Were there some smallish crowds (>10,000)? Yes, but they were in the distinct minority. There were also several +20,000 that were not HC-BC affairs...mostly Homecomings, but also big games against Colgate, Harvard and UMass.

Actually HC drew better in the 80's than they did when they were 1-A in the 1970's when Rutgers, Temple, Syracuse etc. as well as BC regularly made trips to Fitton.

[Franks Tanks]

I don't have the hard figures but I would guess HC averaged closer to 15K than 10K throughout the 80's. Were there some smallish crowds (>10,000)? Yes, but they were in the distinct minority. There were also several +20,000 that were not HC-BC affairs...mostly Homecomings, but also big games against Colgate, Harvard and UMass.

Actually HC drew better in the 80's than they did when they were 1-A in the 1970's when Rutgers, Temple, Syracuse etc. as well as BC regularly made trips to Fitton.


You still get to play Colgate, Harvard, and UMASS as part of the Patriot League. Same teams but less interest.. is that really a result of Patriot League mambership?

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Just for the record, the MA collegiate gridiron scene also includes:

http://www.a2zcolleges.com/sports/football/#MA (not sure how up to date this is)

American International
Assumption
Bentley
Bridgewater State
Curry
Fitchburg State
Framingham State
MA Maritime
Merrimack
MIT
Mount Ida
Nichols
Springfield
Stonehill
Tufts
UMass-Boston
UMass-Dartmouth
UMass-Lowell
Western New England
Westfield State
Worcester State
Worcester Poly (WPI)

Another example of how attendance gets carved up!!

[Sader87]

I think it's really a result of not having scholarships. The players, in toto, are nowhere near the ability they were from 1981-1991 and just as important (maybe moreso), not having scholarships means that HC can't schedule Army, BC etc. anymore and thus renders them as being perceived as being "small time" and not worth the effort in checking out a game.

[Franks Tanks]

I think it's really a result of not having scholarships. The players, in toto, are nowhere near the ability they were from 1981-1991 and just as important (maybe moreso), not having scholarships means that HC can't schedule Army, BC etc. anymore and thus renders them as being perceived as being "small time" and not worth the effort in checking out a game.

But you still play UMASS, Northeastern (when the existed) and certain Ivies. Same teams, and some with scholarships. How is it the fault of the PL that attendance is down?

[Sader87]

But you still play UMASS, Northeastern (when the existed) and certain Ivies. Same teams, and some with scholarships. How is it the fault of the PL that attendance is down?

It's the PL's fault (and I realize this can all be blamed on ourselves) in that most people in Massachusetts equate PL football (being non-scholarship) as being really no different than the type of football being played at say a non-scholarship Williams.

You and I know this isn't the case but you could throw all the Patriot League schools and NESCAC schools together and most wouldn't know which school was in which league.

[Franks Tanks]

It's the PL's fault (and I realize this can all be blamed on ourselves) in that most people in Massachusetts equate PL football (being non-scholarship) as being really no different than the type of football being played at say a non-scholarship Williams.

You and I know this isn't the case but you could throw all the Patriot League schools and NESCAC schools together and most wouldn't know which school was in which league.

I though nobody in Mass knew about the PL!

[Go...gate]

In 1980 Lafayette was also scheduling I-A Penn, Colgate and Columbia as well as Maine and UNH. Lafayette played Rhode Island and Army in 1982. Holy Cross certainly had a better schedule than Lafayette in th early 80's, but the divide isnt as drastic as you would make it appear.

Lafayette is still Rutger's 3rd most played opponent after Princeton and Lehigh (Lehigh played Rutgers once or twice more). Lafayette, Lehigh, and Princeton dont blab on constantly about playing Rutgers like in the old days. We realize times have changed, so much Holy Cross.

In those days, the Division I "Major Independents", including Holy Cross, Lafayette and Colgate, played a much stronger sked overall, even with the occasional "gimme" type game. Lafayette played Army, Navy, William & Mary, Hofstra, C.W. Post (a very strong Division II in those days); Colgate played Rutgers, Syracuse, Penn State, Wyoming, The Citadel, Army, Navy, William & Mary and Boston University. Cross also played a very tough schedule as set forth above, along with Dartmouth, Yale and Brown, which were tough, traditional regional oppoennts. Lehigh and Bucknell also played very strong teams such as Rutgers, Penn, William & Mary, Temple and Delaware (which, IMO, should have been Division I then and should be now).

Just my xtwocentsx

[Sader87]

I though nobody in Mass knew about the PL!

??????

[Go...gate]

It's the PL's fault (and I realize this can all be blamed on ourselves) in that most people in Massachusetts equate PL football (being non-scholarship) as being really no different than the type of football being played at say a non-scholarship Williams.

You and I know this isn't the case but you could throw all the Patriot League schools and NESCAC schools together and most wouldn't know which school was in which league.

I'm afraid this is a worsening problem. Not good for the Patriot League in general.

[Sader87]

In those days, the Division I "Major Independents", including Holy Cross, Lafayette and Colgate, played a much stronger sked overall, even with the occasional "gimme" type game. Lafayette played Army, Navy, William & Mary, Hofstra, C.W. Post (a very strong Division II in those days); Colgate played Rutgers, Syracuse, Penn State, Wyoming, The Citadel, Army, Navy, William & Mary and Boston University. Cross also played a very tough schedule as set forth above, along with Dartmouth, Yale and Brown, which were tough, traditional regional oppoennts. Lehigh and Bucknell also played very strong teams such as Rutgers, Penn, William & Mary, Temple and Delaware (which, IMO, should have been Division I then and should be now).

Just my xtwocentsx

Only Colgate and HC were ever D1 or 1-A in football.

[Go...gate]

Only Colgate and HC were ever D1 or 1-A in football.

Seemed to me that LC was Division I and not Division II. Pard posters?

[Sader87]

Lafayette was "Major College" or "University Division" (that era's D1) from 1938-50....I stand corrected.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's the PL's fault (and I realize this can all be blamed on ourselves) in that most people in Massachusetts equate PL football (being non-scholarship) as being really no different than the type of football being played at say a non-scholarship Williams.

You and I know this isn't the case but you could throw all the Patriot League schools and NESCAC schools together and most wouldn't know which school was in which league.

But how many know how BC is doing in the ACC? How UMass is doing in the CAA? Harvard in the Ivy? It's not the case that BC is doing incredibly well and everyone else is doing terribly - everyone is suffering across the board for the reasons I've mentioned: four flagship teams, no big local rivalries.

[Franks Tanks]

Lafayette was "Major College" or "University Division" (that era's D1) from 1938-50....I stand corrected.

We were college division for a while, but played University Division schools for at least half of the schedule.

As I said Holy Cross and Colgate had better overall schedules without a doubt, but Lafayette and Lehigh didnt play the sisters of the poor.

[Sader87]

But how many know how BC is doing in the ACC? How UMass is doing in the CAA? Harvard in the Ivy? It's not the case that BC is doing incredibly well and everyone else is doing terribly - everyone is suffering across the board for the reasons I've mentioned: four flagship teams, no big local rivalries.

I don't disagree LFN but I don't completely agree either.

BC has become in many ways the only show in town...many do know how BC is faring in the ACC (or at least how they're doing overall). Is it SEC or Penn St fanaticism? No, but they are covered very well by the Boston media and sell out their games fairly regularly.

UMass has always been the sort of "step-child" in that they are located in Western Mass...but they remain relevant in that they've done well during the last decade and do play FBS schools...they open their season at Michigan this year.

Harvard is Harvard...

I understand your thesis but I would argue that HC's biggest rivals right now are Harvard and then probably UMass but they don't reciprocate that rivalry (as our primary rival anyway).

As I've stated, it's all about scholarships....until the PL ok's them for football, HC is considered the poor cousin in college football circles in New England and beyond.

[Ken_Z]

As I've stated, it's all about scholarships....until the PL ok's them for football, HC is considered the poor cousin in college football circles in New England and beyond.

perhaps HC should take the lead pushing for scholarships rather than fighting them. perhaps HC should have pushed to add Northeastern accepted by the PL rather than vetoing them. HC's administration is hurting HC more than the PL is as far as athletics goes.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

perhaps HC should take the lead pushing for scholarships rather than fighting them. perhaps HC should have pushed to add Northeastern accepted by the PL rather than vetoing them. HC's administration is hurting HC more than the PL is as far as athletics goes.

Holy schneikies does this raise my eyebrows. xeyebrowx Northeastern joining the PL would have changed an awful lot about the athletics landscape, and not just in football. This makes it seem like HC actively wants to have no rivals in the state or even close by.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

BC has become in many ways the only show in town...many do know how BC is faring in the ACC (or at least how they're doing overall). Is it SEC or Penn St fanaticism? No, but they are covered very well by the Boston media and sell out their games fairly regularly.

BC averaged 35,716 per game last year, putting them a tiny bit above Air Force and it tiny bit behind UConn.

Alumni's stadium capacity is 44,500.

Not bad, but not "selling out their games fairly regularly" either. And they are very much "middle of the pack" in terms of FBS attendance in general. I maintain that most of Boston couldn't care less about BC's progress unless they're going for a crystal championship.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Holy schneikies does this raise my eyebrows. xeyebrowx Northeastern joining the PL would have changed an awful lot about the athletics landscape, and not just in football. This makes it seem like HC actively wants to have no rivals in the state or even close by.

Lafayette and Lehigh fans can attest that a close-by rivalry makes things infinitely better (even if the other campus' statuary is defaced once in a while). I would have to imagine that Holy Cross would invite a nearby rivalry. I just I think that rivalry has to be Boston College, which went from being a shop-worn, unregarded safety school to national prominence overnight by accident of Doug Flutie. I truly understand Sader87's sentiment about differentiation in the public's mind between the PL and NESCAC. It is truly mind-boggling to consider how much college football is played, per square mile, in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

Would a scholarship Patriot League net Holy Cross games against UConn and Boston College? Or will Holy Cross have to ditch the Patriot League (and its strangling academic benchmarks) in favor of a new conference to be named later?

[Franks Tanks]

BC averaged 35,716 per game last year, putting them a tiny bit above Air Force and it tiny bit behind UConn.

Alumni's stadium capacity is 44,500.

Not bad, but not "selling out their games fairly regularly" either. And they are very much "middle of the pack" in terms of FBS attendance in general. I maintain that most of Boston couldn't care less about BC's progress unless they're going for a crystal championship.


35k per game is pretty poor for FBS. I have been to nearly every FBS venue in the Northeast-- Army, Navy, Syracuse, Rutgers, Penn State, Temple at the Linc, and Pitt (in old Pitt Stadium). We considered BC as well but always heard it isnt a great game day atmosphere. From what I understand tailgaiting is not allowed and parking is horrendous (which is understandable). BC has had some very good teams over the year, but overall they are really somewhat of a blip of the FBS rader.

[DFW HOYA]

Lafayette and Lehigh fans can attest that a close-by rivalry makes things infinitely better (even if the other campus' statuary is defaced once in a while). I would have to imagine that Holy Cross would invite a nearby rivalry. I just I think that rivalry has to be Boston College, which went from being a shop-worn, unregarded safety school to national prominence overnight by accident of Doug Flutie.

It wasn't Flutie, it was Rev. Donald Monan, who kept BC from being closed in the early 1970's (yes, closed) and put it on the fast track financially while Rev. John Brooks was taking HC in another direction.

But at least Holy Cross has a rival....



Or will Holy Cross have to ditch the Patriot League (and its strangling academic benchmarks) in favor of a new conference to be named later?

Who's in this conference? xlolx

[RichH2]

Very surprised to see that HC vetoed N'eastern. If true, an extremely shortsighted move. Local rivalries particularly in Conference cannot help but boost interest and attendance.

[Bogus Megapardus]

it was Rev. Donald Monan, who kept BC from being closed in the early 1970's (yes, closed) and put it on the fast track financially while Rev. John Brooks was taking HC in another direction.


Thirty years' hence I'd still rather have a sheepskin from Holy Cross than from Boston College.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

But at least Holy Cross has a rival....

Hey, you guys have had rivals in football:

* Columbia Athletic Club (haven't played since 1894, when college teams basically stopped playing professional teams)

* Gallaudet (this school for the hard-of hearing historically opened the season against Georgetown in the early years, and just recently returned - happily, I might add- to D-III football)

* Virginia (had a great thing going until 1913, when they accused you of stealing their players and you haven't played since)

* George Washington (was a nice rival until they disbanded in 1950)

* Catholic (had a nice thing going until you went to D-I)

* Johns Hopkins (ditto)

* Washington & Lee (had a nice thing going until you went to D-I, and you even played your last game against them in Bermuda!)

* Howard (seemed to be a great idea, until the Bison pulled the plug last year)

It would be great if Hopkins finally grew a pair and joined Division I, but short of that happening it's hard to see Georgetown's natural football rival. Looking over the landscape again, Washington & Lee also looks like it could be a great eventual PL rival, but they also don't seem like they're too interested. (Plus Wilson stadium, with the ability to host 4,000, ain't going to hack in at Division I.) Gettysburg is another one that has the same problem.

[MDFAN]

Bucknell played in the orange bowl!!!

Oh how I miss the old days.

[DFW HOYA]

Hey, you guys have had rivals in football:
* Columbia Athletic Club (haven't played since 1894, when college teams basically stopped playing professional teams)
* Gallaudet (this school for the hard-of hearing historically opened the season against Georgetown in the early years, and just recently returned - happily, I might add- to D-III football)
* Virginia (had a great thing going until 1913, when they accused you of stealing their players and you haven't played since)
* George Washington (was a nice rival until they disbanded in 1950)
* Catholic (had a nice thing going until you went to D-I)
* Johns Hopkins (ditto)
* Washington & Lee (had a nice thing going until you went to D-I, and you even played your last game against them in Bermuda!)
* Howard (seemed to be a great idea, until the Bison pulled the plug last year)


Playing a team does not a rivalry make. A good rivalry either needs:

1) proximity to recruit the same students (e.g, Leh vs. Laf)
2) schools of similar academic philosophy (pre-1985 HC vs. BC) or
3) sustained annual competition with atheltic excellence (ND-USC)

Obviously, there are no local schools outside Howard to play. Having gone to Georgetown in the days of games with Catholic, Hopkins, and W&L, none were rivals because they engendered zero sustained interest from students. Georgetown's rivals were, in order, 1) Syracuse, 2) Villanova, 3) BC, and 4) St. John's, whatever interest of which went south when the Redmen dropped football.

But because Syracuse and BC (or even Villanova, which steadfastly does not want to play) aren't calling, students see games with Wagner and Sacred Heart and yawn. If Georgetown could get just one decent game on the schedule I think students would respond, but it's hard because it does not play its athletic peers. A lot of students did go to the Howard game last year but frankly were so disgusted by the play on both sides of the ball (244 yards in penalties, 2-17 on third down) that they left en masse.

[ngineer]

Bucknell played in the orange bowl!!!

Oh how I miss the old days.

Yeah, I thought I saw you there!xlolx

[ngineer]

Well, less than two months to when the PL Presidents meet and suck on the communal bong. I'd love to a fly on the wall for that seance....xrolleyesx

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Well, less than two months to when the PL Presidents meet and suck on the communal bong. I'd love to a fly on the wall for that seance....xrolleyesx

Indeed!!! I've got to think that if the Big Ten to 16 explosion occurs, that the PL decision (or non-decision) will be a major factor in the fallout re-alignment.

I just realized that I'm in a Holy Cross radio thread xeekx :p xbangx .......... is the thread about PL scholarships still active? xlolx

[Go...gate]

perhaps HC should take the lead pushing for scholarships rather than fighting them. Perhaps HC should have pushed to add Northeastern accepted by the PL rather than vetoing them. HC's administration is hurting HC more than the PL is as far as athletics goes.

Never realized HC vetoed NU....

[carney2]

Well, less than two months to when the PL Presidents meet and suck on the communal bong. I'd love to a fly on the wall for that seance....xrolleyesx

The original yammerings from the League office stated that things might move in 2010, but that does not necessarily mean at the next meeting. I'm betting that you are getting everyone's hopes up for no reason. At this point there is absolutely no indication that any of the prerequisites for a decision have been set in motion. Some (most?) schools, for instance, require some sort of formal action by the Board of Trustees or other governing body before their President, AD or other representative can even engage in meaningful discussions. To the best of my knowledge, there is no indication of this happening in even one instance, let alone League wide.

Does anyone have any indications that any of this has occurred? "I think our president is in favor" and/or "our AD has said" do not count. Let's hear about formal school decisions on this.

[RichH2]

If PL meet approves merit aid only then will issue go to Trustee boards for decisions on what each school will do or not do. It is a majority vote only to approve concept of schollies for PL football. Even if issue not tabled ( likely), implementation will be at a glacial pace. When does each school's Board meet? Academic movement is timed in epochs not years. xthumbsdownx

As to Big 10. Wow what a mess FBS will be. Overweaning greed is an amazing and insidious destroyer. Probably right tho that Big 10 moves might drive PL issues off the front page.;) Will end Big East as a viable football conference.

How will FBS chaos impact on us in the FCS?

[PantherRob82]

It is, however, the PL's job to generate interest in PL football, to which it has done next to nothing in the Washington area to facilitate this. The lack of awareness of the league in Washington (for Georgetown or for AU in other sports) is minimal and the league does not seem to know how to build its brand identity in markets larger than, say, Lewisburg and Hamilton.

The skeptic in me says the PL sees Georgetown as six opponent wins, autobid insurance, and little else. The optimist says the PL hasn't figured out how to leverage a nationally known university within its own framework to its ultimate benefit.

Why doesn't Georgetown use it's basketball program to get the football program better coverage? Package the deal. Seems like Georgetown is the issue, not the PL.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

But because Syracuse and BC (or even Villanova, which steadfastly does not want to play) aren't calling, students see games with Wagner and Sacred Heart and yawn. If Georgetown could get just one decent game on the schedule I think students would respond, but it's hard because it does not play its athletic peers. A lot of students did go to the Howard game last year but frankly were so disgusted by the play on both sides of the ball (244 yards in penalties, 2-17 on third down) that they left en masse.

If that's truly the case, Georgetown had better march up to Patriot League headquarters and demand that they be allowed to offer athletic scholarships. If you played with 63, you'd get those games with Syracuse or BC - or Maryland. (Syracuse has an opening right now for a game, which will very likely be filled by an FCS opponent that won't be Georgetown.)

It's a shame that the Howard thing never really worked out, though it's not like HU is a hotbed of football activity either. HU balances its books through the occasional "Classic" and a traditional sellout on homecoming, but aside from that home games can really be lacking for fans.

When you say "athletic peers", too, that language means different things to different people. Ask Arthur Rothkopf and he'd say Harvard, Yale... and Swarthmore. Ask Dave Roche and he'd (probably) say Cornell, UMass... and Syracuse. This goes back to the old chestnut: what does the Patriot League want to be?

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

How will FBS chaos impact on us in the FCS?

If the BCS evolves into some form of the greedy 64 who then evolve into a separate entity:


Does FBS then become the remaining schools plus some of the full scholly FCS schools?
Does D-I become two groups (scholarship as well as non and reduced scholarship) since BCS is off in their own universe?
Does the implosion of leagues like the A-10 and Big East cause schools like UMass, Richmond, URI, Villanova, Georgetown, etc. to make difficult decisions about football and their conference affiliation?


Villanova and Georgetown won't be part of the "BCS 64" because they don't play FBS Football. Will they accept basketball in a Parochial Big East and remain football affiliates or will they opt for all sports leagues where their football fits?

UMass, URI and Richmond won't be part of the "BCS 64" either. Will there be some fallout league where they'll land that allows them to play football elsewhere? Or will they too have to decide to upgrade football to be part of new or existing leagues? Or will they have to align with regional schools in a FCS centric league for all sports? Can UMass pony up the money to join Temple, Buffalo, YSU, JMU, ODU, Charlotte or others of that ilk in a new or existing FBS league? I'd say that URI and Richmond definitely can't or won't. URI might not have too many options other than reducing scholarships and going NEC football affiliate in order to play hoop elsewhere or drop football so they can align based on hoop only or just settle in with Maine, UNH, Albany, etc. in an all sports league. Richmond with a 9K stadium isn't going FBS but they'll have options (Patriot, SoCon now without ASU and GaSoU, or all sports with the remaining AE/CAA football schools, etc.)

If the 64 isolate themselves, then there won't be the same obscene money from hoop going elsewhere. That might change the direction of many an athletic department!!! FWIW, I've heard examples of the 64 being four sixteen team leagues so there would be four champions. Two semi-final games and one national championship game. No slumming with anyone from the Sun Belt, MAC, C-USA, etc. required in a playoff system!!!!!

Yeah, this chaos could impact FCS.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Playing a team does not a rivalry make. A good rivalry either needs:

1) proximity to recruit the same students (e.g, Leh vs. Laf)
2) schools of similar academic philosophy (pre-1985 HC vs. BC) or
3) sustained annual competition with atheltic excellence (ND-USC)

Obviously, there are no local schools outside Howard to play. Having gone to Georgetown in the days of games with Catholic, Hopkins, and W&L, none were rivals because they engendered zero sustained interest from students. Georgetown's rivals were, in order, 1) Syracuse, 2) Villanova, 3) BC, and 4) St. John's, whatever interest of which went south when the Redmen dropped football.

But because Syracuse and BC (or even Villanova, which steadfastly does not want to play) aren't calling, students see games with Wagner and Sacred Heart and yawn. If Georgetown could get just one decent game on the schedule I think students would respond, but it's hard because it does not play its athletic peers. A lot of students did go to the Howard game last year but frankly were so disgusted by the play on both sides of the ball (244 yards in penalties, 2-17 on third down) that they left en masse.

Georgetown and Villanova are both all sports members of the Big East. You play basketball as well as a myriad of Olympic sports against each other. You're about a two hour bus ride apart. You're both play football at the FCS level. And Villanova won't play you in football? xoopsx xrolleyesx Do all Big East Conference mates have such a contentious relationship?

Like LFN said, Georgetown should vote for scholarships and schedule two money games with the likes of Maryland, Boston College, UConn, Rutgers, Pitt, WVU, Syracuse, etc. You'd have two games that attracted the students and made some money. And it might even shame Villanova into giving you a game. xrotatehx xsmhx xsmhx xsmhx

[Sader87]

Sooo...have we found a new radio station home yet????

[RichH2]

87, you are being rude to try to redirect this thread back along such a parochial theme:D

Rule apparently is once a thread has been hijacked it is impolite to re hijack it to the original topic. You may however hijack it to a new topicxsmiley_wix

[Sader87]

I know it's a different media universe today but in the late 70's/early 80's Holy Cross football games were often the regional college football of the week on ABC, nearly every home game was on (if tape delayed) the local TV station Channel 27 and there were multiple radio and newspapers covering their games. The basketball team was covered in a much similar fashion as well...HC games often being the NBC ECAC game of the Week, Channel 27 covered most games, both home and away, live etc. etc.

Much of this is our own doing but all I'm saying is that to the general public HC athletics has nearly disappeared off the face of the earth.