Patriot League Strength of Schedules and Potential for a 2nd Bid

[LUHawker]

Despite the fact that the PL hasn't had 2 teams in the playoffs since 2004, the PL was close to putting two in last year, but for Lehigh's defeat of Lafayette in the season finale and Colgate's weak SOS (Colgate was 9-2 and LC 8-3). Those two teams plus the League winner, Holy Cross, all finished in the Top 25, so getting two in is not totally out of the question. The big issue is the quality and strength of schedule. To streamline the conversation, I am ignoring both G'town and Bucknell as unlikely to even be in the conversation. Because of all of the jockeying surrounding scholarships in the PL, the only way that Fordham can get into the playoffs is through an at-large bid, since it is ineligible to get the auto bid. Assuming that each of these teams has a good in league record, but doesn't win the auto-bid, I size up their chances of an at-large.

With that out of the way, here are the OOC schedules:

Colgate:

Sep 4 - vs. Monmouth, 6:00 PM
Sep 11 - at Furman, TBA
Sep 18 - vs. Dartmouth, 1:00 PM
Oct 9 - at Princeton, TBA
Oct 16 - at Cornell, TBA

Not a bad OOC. Furman is a major player and Monmouth has turned some heads recently. While all PL teams have a healthy dose of Ivy competition, this is not the best of the bunch on Colgate's list. Dartmouth is terrible, Princeton has a new HC and has been mediocre and remember this is Cornell's football team, not its hoops team, so also not great. 5-0 probably gets them in. Going 4-1 with a loss to Furman still probably leaves them at home.

Fordham:

Sep 4 - at Bryant, 3:00 PM
Sep 11 - vs. Rhode Island, TBA
Sep 18 - at Columbia, TBA
Sep 25 - vs. Assumption, 1:00 PM
Oct 16 - at Yale, TBA

This is likely not an OOC that will impress too many people. Yes, there is scholly URI on there, but they are a CAA bottom-feeder. Yale is solid, but Assumption, really? Bryant and Columbia are yawns. The Rams need to go 5-0 to even get a sniff.

Holy Cross:

Sep 4 - vs. Howard, TBA
Sep 11 - at Massachusetts, TBA
Sep 18 - at Harvard, TBA
Oct 9 - vs. Brown, TBA
Oct 16 - at Dartmouth, TBA

Not bad OOC, not compelling either. Umass is tough and Harvard always good. Howard, Brown and Dartmouth, individually and collectively a weak. 4-1 might get them a look, but if loss is to UMass, leaves little to get excited about. 3-2, no shot.


Lafayette:

Sep 18 - at Penn, TBA
Sep 25 - at Princeton, TBA
Oct 2 - vs. Harvard, 12:00 PM
Oct 9 - at Columbia, TBA
Oct 16 - vs. Stony Brook, 1:00 PM

Not great, but not bad OOC either. Penn is a legitimate contender and Harvard is always vying for the Ivy title. Stony Brook is solid, but still not a marquee OOC name. The problem for LC is that 4 of these teams are from the Ivy League, which doesn't have great cred among the Selection Committee. Going 5-0 here would get the Leopards a serious look and a likely bid. 4-1 with a loss to Penn or Harvard might do the trick, but not a gimme either. Anything less than that will have them on the outside looking in.

Lehigh:

Sep 4 - at Drake, 7:00 PM
Sep 11 - vs. Villanova, TBA
Sep 18 - vs. Princeton, TBA
Sep 25 - at New Hampshire, TBA
Oct 16 - vs. Harvard, TBA

Not a biased comment, but easily the toughest OOC schedule in the PL - heck this would be a worth OOC for most any team. National Champion Villanova and Semi-finalist New Hampshire mean that Lehigh has its work cut out. Ditto the comments in the LC section on Harvard. Princeton is mediocre and Drake is a respectable Pioneer foe. If Lehigh goes 4-1 here, they are in, doesn't matter who the loss is. 3-2 becomes much more difficult. A loss to both VU and UNH doesn't really do much for them. 3-2 with a win over either just might get them a look, but that may be all. 2-3 fuggetaboutit!

Overall, Lehigh has the toughest path to an at-large bid if they don't win the league. Colgate Fordham and Lafayette all have easier paths, but weak OOC SOS may hold them up. Team with the best shot at at at-large is Lafayette IMO, if they don't win the league.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Not a biased comment

xeyebrowx

[jimbo65]

I have a ?.

Does the NCAA have to honor the PL's rule re. FU unable to win the league championship. For instance, lets say FU defeats all the PL opponents. Now the NCAA could give them an at lagre but do they have to take the "runner up", say Lehigh with three losses, one to FU and two others ooc, if the Mtn Hawks are the "League Champion"? Even odder, say Lehigh won all PL games and lost all ooc games. Do they still get a bid?

Hopefully, but not necessarily, all this has been thought out before.

Personally, I find the present situation a plus to FU in the short term (good teams to play) and a minus to the PL in both the long & short term(unless the league goes scholley).

[DFW HOYA]

I am ignoring both G'town and Bucknell as unlikely to even be in the conversation.

Well, they are in the conversation because league-wide SOS will figure into the discussion and if these two go o-fer in the nonconference, that will reflect poorly on the PL's second bid potential. That having been said, the schedules:

Bucknell (4-7 last season)
Opponent Record, 2009: 20-22 (.476)

09/04: at Duquesne
09/18: TBA
09/25: at Marist
10/02: Cornell
10/09: Pennsylvania

Three winnable games for the Bison, with a toss-up at Duquesne, a likely win over Marist, and a fighting chance at home against Cornell. Not too much hope against Penn, however.

Georgetown (0-11 last season)
Opponent Record, 2009: 22-30 (.423)

09/04: at Davidson
09/18: at Yale
10/09: Wagner
10/23: at Sacred Heart
11/20: Marist

Whatever the circumstances really were, Georgetown lost three scholarship opponents from 2009 (and a potential fourth in ND State) for a slate that is arguably the weakest of any team in an autobid conference. Yes, Georgetown could conceivably win all five but no one will stake a claim on that: Georgetown has lost nine straight to Ivy teams since 2003 (last two games against Yale, a combined score of 78-17) and hasn't won a game outside DC in almost four years.

And if they won all five, it still wouldn't mean much if they cannot be competitive in the PL, where Kevin Kelly is 1-22 against conference opponents, 18 of which were by double figures.

[Franks Tanks]

I have a ?.

Does the NCAA have to honor the PL's rule re. FU unable to win the league championship. For instance, lets say FU defeats all the PL opponents. Now the NCAA could give them an at lagre but do they have to take the "runner up", say Lehigh with three losses, one to FU and two others ooc, if the Mtn Hawks are the "League Champion"? Even odder, say Lehigh won all PL games and lost all ooc games. Do they still get a bid?

Hopefully, but not necessarily, all this has been thought out before.

Personally, I find the present situation a plus to FU in the short term (good teams to play) and a minus to the PL in both the long & short term(unless the league goes scholley).

Yes-- the NCAA gives the automatic bid to whomever the PL awards the championship. In your scenario above Lehigh would be crowned champs and recieve the automatic bid. Fordham gets nothing and must hope to recieve an at large from the commitee.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Because the Ivy League plays so few OOC games that don't involve the Patriot League, it is very difficult to gauge their relative strength. I understand these games are historical, long standing series, but they don't help a Patriot team obtain national recognition. Another factor to this pollster, is the "AGS" factor of one game. I don't read too much into one big win (or loss), but temper it until additional results can be added. Based on that, a Furman win by Colgate needs to be supplemented by a very, very solid win over Monmouth to make a serious impression on this pollster. xtwocentsx

BTW, you neglected to list the Holy Cross OOC schedule. And frankly, the Bucknell and Georgetown OOC schedules count too. If they have a good showing in those games, it impacts the PL's perception. Much like I read a lot into the sizeable Hofstra (lower CAA team) win at Bucknell two years ago (IIRC).

[DFW HOYA]

Rhetorical question, but some of you may figure out what I'm asking: is there a minumum number of PL schools that must be eligible to compete for the title?

[UNHWildCats]

Rhetorical question, but some of you may figure out what I'm asking: is there a minumum number of PL schools that must be eligible to compete for the title?
I think the min for auto bid is 6 teams.

[MplsBison]

Rhetorical question, but some of you may figure out what I'm asking: is there a minumum number of PL schools that must be eligible to compete for the title?

The Patriot League: 10 football members but only 2 are eligible to be champions! xlolx

[MplsBison]

I think the min for auto bid is 6 teams.

Yeah but that just means there has to be 6 teams considered members of the conference.

[LUHawker]

BTW, you neglected to list the Holy Cross OOC schedule. And frankly, the Bucknell and Georgetown OOC schedules count too. If they have a good showing in those games, it impacts the PL's perception. Much like I read a lot into the sizeable Hofstra (lower CAA team) win at Bucknell two years ago (IIRC).

Air-balled on the HC schedule. Agree that BU and GU schedules count for perception, but disagree that they affect how these other 4 would be evaluated.

GTown sucking in-league and out of conference not likely to impact the evaluation of the merits of the others.

[LUHawker]

xeyebrowx

Do you disagree with the rationale?

[Fordham83]

Fordham is playing Assumption - partly due to A's Head Coach is a former fordham ftbl player.

in 2011 Fordham @ U Conn -- and going forward FU will be playing a "1A " school each year. which will obv. improve OOC schedule. imagine URI, Columbia will be annual games as well.

in unrelated tidibts.. altho FU offers scholly's we cannot redshirt or bring in 5th yr transfers (PL rules). I spoke to asst. Rich Wallinger sp. this morning.. in addition, he said no clue as far as PL deciding to go scholly or not. my take on that was continued feet dragging and indecision..

[DFW HOYA]

GTown sucking in-league and out of conference not likely to impact the evaluation of the merits of the others.

If so, why not just forfeit the six games a year and focus on playing the non-conference games? Wouldn't impact the merits of others, would it?

As long as Georgetown is in the PL, what it does in these games does matter to other schools. At least it ought to.

[Franks Tanks]

Yeah but that just means there has to be 6 teams considered members of the conference.

Without Fordham the PL still has 6 FB playing members.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Holy Cross:

Sep 4 - vs. Howard, TBA
Sep 11 - at Massachusetts, TBA
Sep 18 - at Harvard, TBA
Oct 9 - vs. Brown, TBA
Oct 16 - at Dartmouth, TBA

Not bad OOC, not compelling either. Umass is tough and Harvard always good. Howard, Brown and Dartmouth, individually and collectively a weak. 4-1 might get them a look, but if loss is to UMass, leaves little to get excited about. 3-2, no shot.

I think you pooh-pooh this schedule awful quickly. UMass is always a contender for the playoffs in the CAA, and Harvard will be the front-runner for the Ivy League title alongside Brown. It may not be as tough as Lehigh's, but saying that 3-2 gives them no shot at an at-large? If HC loses close games to UMass and Harvard, and loses (say) to undefeated Colgate in league play, that's not too bad a resume for an at-large bid.

Also neglected here is the effect of the 24-team playoffs, which start this year.... I'm sorry, an 8-3 Holy Cross team in the scenario above is a shoo-in for an extra at-large bid.

[carney2]

I guess, LU, you are saying without saying it that we are considering this "question" because, and only because, of the expanded and therefore watered down playoff format for 2010. I state this because the Patriot League is NOT a 2 bid league in "normal times.

Moving on, the Holy Cross OOC schedule is

Brown
Dartmouth
Harvard
Howard
UMass

They will win 2.

Moving on:

Bucknell could go 3-2, depending on who "TBA" is.

Colgate will go 3-2.

Fordham could go 4-1.

Georgetown will go 0-5.

Lafayette will go 1-4.

Lehigh will go 2-3.

Do you really see an at large bid in any of this? I don't. Fordham will go 3-3 in the League and that will be, as they say, all she wrote.

[LUHawker]

I think you pooh-pooh this schedule awful quickly. UMass is always a contender for the playoffs in the CAA, and Harvard will be the front-runner for the Ivy League title alongside Brown. It may not be as tough as Lehigh's, but saying that 3-2 gives them no shot at an at-large? If HC loses close games to UMass and Harvard, and loses (say) to undefeated Colgate in league play, that's not too bad a resume for an at-large bid.

Also neglected here is the effect of the 24-team playoffs, which start this year.... I'm sorry, an 8-3 Holy Cross team in the scenario above is a shoo-in for an extra at-large bid.

Pooh-pooh is an inaccurate characterization. "Not bad but not compelling" is more like so-so, not pooh pooh, but I digress.

I believe that it is a 20 team playoff this year, not 24. I still think that a 3-2 OOC doesn't get them in. Focus on the wins, not the losses. If you tell the committe that HC defeated Brown, Howard and Dartmouth in their OOC, do you really think that is a compelling argument as to why they should be in the playoffs? I doubt it. 3-2 OOC with losses to HU and Umass leaves HC at home.

[danefan]

Lehigh is the only team with a schedule worthy of an at-large. And to do it they'll have to beat both Villanova and UNH. The remaining 3 OOC teams aren't at-large quality wins and a loss in-conference in the PL without 2 quality OOC wins should (and will) keep them out.

[Franks Tanks]

So a 2 loss Lehigh team with say a win over UNH, and losses to the defending champs and perhaps Colgate should keep them out of a 20 team field?????

[LUHawker]

So a 2 loss Lehigh team with say a win over UNH, and losses to the defending champs and perhaps Colgate should keep them out of a 20 team field?????

This would be a high-quality problem for Lehigh to have after its 4-7 season last year. :D

[danefan]

So a 2 loss Lehigh team with say a win over UNH, and losses to the defending champs and perhaps Colgate should keep them out of a 20 team field?????

Yeah, the 20 team field will make a difference. I was thinking on history.

It all depends on what UNH and Colgate does in that situation, anyway.

For example, if UNH doesn't make the playoffs and Colgate loses to anyone but Furman OOC, then I still don't think Lehigh should make it in your hypothetical.

But even that would depend on who else is on the bubble. So a blanket statement like I made in my first post probably isn't correct in the 20 team field.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Do you disagree with the rationale?

No. Lehigh has the most challenging PL OOC schedule.


The Patriot League: 10 football members but only 2 are eligible to be champions!

Major research university, right?


altho FU offers scholly's we cannot redshirt or bring in 5th yr transfers (PL rules).

In all seriousness, why would Fordham choose to continue to follow all the strict PL rules that make it much more difficult to win? With all the upgrades to Fordham's program and the FBS schedule, I would think that Fordham would want to level the playing field.

[RichH2]

I have my Karnak hat on and I predict that PL will meet and............... oops hat fell offxnodx( Which is actually my sense of PL action on schollies)

LU clearly best OOC sched but as we have seen quality losses , which LU fans used for years and are very familiar with with Andy, will not help us with a bid unless we win the PL. A win over either Nova or UNH will keep us in the mix. If we win both I will by the Board a round.

At this point Gate has to be the favorite. If Ceech can fix the O we'll be in the fight.xhurrayx

[Bogus Megapardus]

Karnak hat

Well, if we're going to speculate about this topic again, my xtwocentsx is this - if the PL renews a formal scheduling arrangement with the Ivy (which must include quality home Ivies for Georgetown, BTW) then the PL stands pat and we pump effort into expanding the CBS College Sports television ties that already have taken hold across several sports, including renewed emphasis of featured rivalries such as Colgate-Brown, Holy Cross-Dartmouth, Lehigh-Penn, Lafayette-Princeton and Bucknell-Cornell.

If the Ivies are content with Wagner, Albany and Sacred Heart, then we will move to a scholarship formula that will allow teams that choose to do so to schedule FBS games. An in-between format would not serve the league's interests. Most of the league will say goodbye to the Ivy ties. The academic index will remain - otherwise, with 25-30% of the student body at some schools involved in varsity athletics, academic standards will creep downwards, and no one wants that. I buy into the theory that PL schools will be able to recruit more, not fewer, AI-qualified athletes with scholarships.

If the PL goes scholarship, Georgetown bolts. If the Hoyas are going to play scholarship football, they might as well play in the Big East. Fordham clearly is gone either way, so a replacement that is able to follow the AI is needed.

[carney2]

Well, if we're going to speculate about this topic again, my xtwocentsx is this - if the PL renews a formal scheduling arrangement with the Ivy (which must include quality home Ivies for Georgetown, BTW) then the PL stands pat and we pump effort into expanding the CBS College Sports television ties that already have taken hold across several sports, including renewed emphasis of featured rivalries such as Colgate-Brown, Holy Cross-Dartmouth, Lehigh-Penn, Lafayette-Princeton and Bucknell-Cornell.

If the Ivies are content with Wagner, Albany and Sacred Heart, then we will move to a scholarship formula that will allow teams that choose to do so to schedule FBS games. An in-between format would not serve the league's interests. Most of the league will say goodbye to the Ivy ties. The academic index will remain - otherwise, with 25-30% of the student body at some schools involved in varsity athletics, academic standards will creep downwards, and no one wants that. I buy into the theory that PL schools will be able to recruit more, not fewer, AI-qualified athletes with scholarships.

If the PL goes scholarship, Georgetown bolts. If the Hoyas are going to play scholarship football, they might as well play in the Big East. Fordham clearly is gone either way, so a replacement that is able to follow the AI is needed.

That's harsh. I don't understand why scholarships and one FBS game for some teams (they don't grow on trees, and you don't get them just because you want them) knocks the Ivies off the schedule. The Snooty Eight seem unwilling to branch out in the world of FBS football, and are not exactly looking at a lot of attraction scheduling options if they forsake their Made By Ivy Patsies.

[danefan]

Well, if we're going to speculate about this topic again, my xtwocentsx is this - if the PL renews a formal scheduling arrangement with the Ivy (which must include quality home Ivies for Georgetown, BTW) then the PL stands pat and we pump effort into expanding the CBS College Sports television ties that already have taken hold across several sports, including renewed emphasis of featured rivalries such as Colgate-Brown, Holy Cross-Dartmouth, Lehigh-Penn, Lafayette-Princeton and Bucknell-Cornell.

If the Ivies are content with Wagner, Albany and Sacred Heart, then we will move to a scholarship formula that will allow teams that choose to do so to schedule FBS games. An in-between format would not serve the league's interests. Most of the league will say goodbye to the Ivy ties. The academic index will remain - otherwise, with 25-30% of the student body at some schools involved in varsity athletics, academic standards will creep downwards, and no one wants that. I buy into the theory that PL schools will be able to recruit more, not fewer, AI-qualified athletes with scholarships.

If the PL goes scholarship, Georgetown bolts. If the Hoyas are going to play scholarship football, they might as well play in the Big East. Fordham clearly is gone either way, so a replacement that is able to follow the AI is needed.

Why would the Ivy's schedule scholarship NEC teams and not scholarship Patriot League teams?

If anything, the Ivy's will likely move towards scheduling more PFL teams.

[Sader87]

A lot of HC alumni (and fans) care more about the non-league Ivy football games than the PL games.

[Bogus Megapardus]

That's harsh. I don't understand why scholarships and one FBS game for some teams (they don't grow on trees, and you don't get them just because you want them) knocks the Ivies off the schedule. The Snooty Eight seem unwilling to branch out in the world of FBS football, and are not exactly looking at a lot of attraction scheduling options if they forsake their Made By Ivy Patsies.

It doesn't knock them out, but the scheduling preferences that the PL always has received with the Ivies won't be the same. There is reasonable parity between the IL and PL now. The IL still has the win advantage in general, but Lafayette's blowing through the upper echelon of the league last season cannot have sat well with the good folks over on Alexander Street. Scholarships will be perceived as disrupting that parity, AI or not, don't you think?

I know, people say, "who else are they going to play?" I suppose that's true.

But as for scholarships, I think the PL is going to go all the way or nothing, but who knows. I guess we'll all be in for a surprise.


A lot of HC alumni (and fans) care more about the non-league Ivy football games than the PL games.

Not surprising, since most HC fans (like Fordham fans) can't stand the PL and would rather be anywhere else.

[Sader87]

Bogus...just telling it like it is. Obviously the PL games carry more import "season-wise" but a vast segment of the alumni base at HC would take wins over Harvard, Dartmouth and Yale over say Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell in any given year.

[DFW HOYA]

It's threads like this, to the PL outsiders like MplsBison, must make it seem that the league is one dysfunctional family...that there are really only four schools that want to be in the league, with two that are hanging around for scheduling purposes and one in purple that just hasn't got a better offer from another conference.


If the Ivies are content with Wagner, Albany and Sacred Heart, then we will move to a scholarship formula that will allow teams that choose to do so to schedule FBS games. An in-between format would not serve the league's interests. Most of the league will say goodbye to the Ivy ties. The academic index will remain - otherwise, with 25-30% of the student body at some schools involved in varsity athletics, academic standards will creep downwards, and no one wants that. I buy into the theory that PL schools will be able to recruit more, not fewer, AI-qualified athletes with scholarships.

Why would that be? I argue that the AI is a sop to keep the Ivies happy: that they have willing opponents that, frankly, they can beat. But why would no AI signal the end of academic standards? Each school would still be under the authority to accept who they choose--Holy Cross is not going to be starting a woodworking major to get kids from Southern Worcester Vo-Tech to play football any more that Lehigh would be bringing in dozens of at-risk kids a year. They aren't compromising the integrity at places like Villanova, Richmond, or W&M, none of whom use an AI, so why would things summarily collapse at PL schools?


If the PL goes scholarship, Georgetown bolts. If the Hoyas are going to play scholarship football, they might as well play in the Big East. Fordham clearly is gone either way, so a replacement that is able to follow the AI is needed.

Again, why would that be? The person who would recommend that decision isn't even employed by the school, as its AD position remains vacant for an 11th month. The problem is not the concept but the volume--Georgetown has a lot of scholarship sports, but next to none are fully funded. If the new, Fordham-friendly PL wants Georgetown at 63 scholarships or else, than it's got a problem. If it's content to see Georgetown tag along, whatever the number (even if it's 10 or 12), then it'll be status quo.

And after all these years of discussion on this board, there have not been any realistic candidates offered that are willing to spend $3-4 million a year and impose an AI. Maybe the PL doesn't really have any expansion candidates on the horizon.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Bogus...just telling it like it is. Obviously the PL games carry more import "season-wise" but a vast segment of the alumni base at HC would take wins over Harvard, Dartmouth and Yale over say Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell in any given year.

I remember that Lafayette-Holy Cross game last year was a real snooze fest. It's not like half your stadium stormed the field or anything.

Lafayette plays an Ivy game or two on rare occasion as well, and the fans certainly enjoy them. I guess the difference is that Lafayette fans do not deride the fact that Lafayette is "forced" to play Holy Cross every year.

Like I say, Sader87, you shoulda been in the Big East. Then the PL could be safely disregarded and none of this would be a problem.

[Sader87]

I'm not deriding the fact that we "have" to play Lafayette just that in terms of historical and geographic importance, the Harvard or Dartmouth game carries much more weight to many HC alums than the Bucknell or Lehigh game.

[Bogus Megapardus]

But why would no AI signal the end of academic standards?

A place like Lafayette is so small, and athletes make up such a large portion of the student population, that some feel that downward creep would be inevitable without an externally-impose, objective floor for athletes. Of course each school could discipline its own standards, but I'm fairly certain (without actually knowing) that the faculty at several of the schools absolutely insist on the AI. There is concern of a Binghamton-like fiasco as well, absent league-imposed standards.


If the new, Fordham-friendly PL wants Georgetown at 63 scholarships or else, than it's got a problem. If it's content to see Georgetown tag along, whatever the number (even if it's 10 or 12), then it'll be status quo.

I should have been more clear. If the PL goes Fordham-friendly full scholarship, then Georgetown is gone. I tend to think the PL will go all or nothing; most folks quite rationally disagree and see a 15-20 scholarship compromise (but without a minimum) which Georgetown might accept. Fordham is gone no matter what happens. I personally think the PL will stand pat under pressure of the economy and faculties but I certainly could be (and probably am) wrong. With the philosophical hurdle of the last holdout (Lafayette) now overcome, it becomes a less complicated decision, to be sure.


Maybe the PL doesn't really have any expansion candidates on the horizon.

If the unwritten bias against sate colleges abides, you're probably correct. I'd love to have a scholarship PL that included perhaps URI or Maine, for example, but that's likely too much to hope for. The "should have been" private schools of the CAA will never come to pass, and I doubt places like Duquesne or Marist wish to spend $3-4 million just to play in a league with a bunch of other little colleges that even several of its own members have very little regard for.

[Franks Tanks]

I'm not deriding the fact that we "have" to play Lafayette just that in terms of historical and geographic importance, the Harvard or Dartmouth game carries much more weight to many HC alums than the Bucknell or Lehigh game.

And Lafayette alums care more about games vs. Penn, Princeton, Bucknell and naturally Lehigh than Holy Cross (unless league title implications are present).

[Sader87]

And Lafayette alums care more about games vs. Penn, Princeton, Bucknell and naturally Lehigh than Holy Cross (unless league title implications are present).

Completely agree...the thing is, HC is just a very poor fit in the PL. We have hardly any commonalities with the Pennsylvania schools...in many ways we have a lot more in common with UNH, UMass and URI than the Pennsylvania trio of the PL.

[Redbird Ray]

Let's be realistic here. You guys are lucky to even have an auto-bid each year. Don't push your luck trying to become a multi-bid league year in and year out.

[PantherRob82]

I think you pooh-pooh this schedule awful quickly. UMass is always a contender for the playoffs in the CAA, and Harvard will be the front-runner for the Ivy League title alongside Brown. It may not be as tough as Lehigh's, but saying that 3-2 gives them no shot at an at-large? If HC loses close games to UMass and Harvard, and loses (say) to undefeated Colgate in league play, that's not too bad a resume for an at-large bid.

Also neglected here is the effect of the 24-team playoffs, which start this year.... I'm sorry, an 8-3 Holy Cross team in the scenario above is a shoo-in for an extra at-large bid.

Not if they lose to UMass and Harvard. xwhistlex

[Bogus Megapardus]

Let's be realistic here. You guys are lucky to even have an auto-bid each year. Don't push your luck trying to become a multi-bid league year in and year out.

Being realistic, the Patriot League's auto-bid is due in greater measure to application of NCAA policies than it is to luck, I imagine. I see no fault in devoting any residual luck from that process to securing a second, at-large bid now and then. It is not wholly unprecedented.

[Franks Tanks]

Let's be realistic here. You guys are lucky to even have an auto-bid each year. Don't push your luck trying to become a multi-bid league year in and year out.


The PL competes exponentially better in the FCS football playoffs than many auto bid leagues and teams in other sports. For example PL football teams win much more often in the FB tourney, than lower level leagues win in basketball, baseball, soccer etc. If you say the PL football bid is in jeopardy than you have to take away the auto-bids for dozens of conferences in dozens of sports,

Also the PL was won more games recently than the OVC and MEAC so we are at least as deserving as those conferences.

[aceinthehole]

Of course each school could discipline its own standards, but I'm fairly certain (without actually knowing) that the faculty at several of the schools absolutely insist on the AI. There is concern of a Binghamton-like fiasco as well, absent league-imposed standards.

Are you saying some PL schools, if left to their own devices, would risk their institutional reputation to admit some very questionable football players? Are you suggesting that the high academic standards for admission are just a corporate PL mechanism, and not a value that the member schools would adhere to individually?


If the unwritten bias against sate colleges abides, you're probably correct. I'd love to have a scholarship PL that included perhaps URI or Maine, for example, but that's likely too much to hope for. The "should have been" private schools of the CAA will never come to pass, and I doubt places like Duquesne or Marist wish to spend $3-4 million just to play in a league with a bunch of other little colleges that even several of its own members have very little regard for.

How could you even suggest UMass or URI, who both that regularly uses Prop 48 and redshirt players, as 'ideal' candidates for the PL? Just a few years ago, many previous PL fans outright dismissed even considering schools like Monmouth or Marist based on the 'academic standards.' It seems like the tune is changing.

[Redbird Ray]

The PL competes exponentially better in the FCS football playoffs than many auto bid leagues and teams in other sports. For example PL football teams win much more often in the FB tourney, than lower level leagues win in basketball, baseball, soccer etc. If you say the PL football bid is in jeopardy than you have to take away the auto-bids for dozens of conferences in dozens of sports,

Also the PL was won more games recently than the OVC and MEAC so we are at least as deserving as those conferences.

Agreed, the those two leagues suck as well. Every now and then you have a PL, OVC, or MEAC team make a deep run, but for the most part, you're stealing a bid from a more deserving team from the MVFC, Southland, Big Sky, or Southern.

But don't get me wrong, I'm glad the FCS tourney has representation from many leagues to have a true class championship field. I just think the second best PL team would get trounced by the fourth best MVFC team in most years.

[LUHawker]

How could you even suggest UMass or URI, who both that regularly uses Prop 48 and redshirt players, as 'ideal' candidates for the PL? Just a few years ago, many previous PL fans outright dismissed even considering schools like Monmouth or Marist based on the 'academic standards.' It seems like the tune is changing.

I seriously doubt the tune is changing among the league Presidents who still focus on academic standards.

While the odds are not in our favor, I'd really like to see what happens in the new potential membership realm if the PL permitted schollies. I, for one, think Villanova is a high probability candidate over the next few years and particularly when Talley steps down.

[Fordham]

It's threads like this, to the PL outsiders like MplsBison, must make it seem that the league is one dysfunctional family...that there are really only four schools that want to be in the league, with two that are hanging around for scheduling purposes and one in purple that just hasn't got a better offer from another conference. Agreed and well put.

Why would that be? I argue that the AI is a sop to keep the Ivies happy: that they have willing opponents that, frankly, they can beat. But why would no AI signal the end of academic standards? Each school would still be under the authority to accept who they choose--Holy Cross is not going to be starting a woodworking major to get kids from Southern Worcester Vo-Tech to play football any more that Lehigh would be bringing in dozens of at-risk kids a year. They aren't compromising the integrity at places like Villanova, Richmond, or W&M, none of whom use an AI, so why would things summarily collapse at PL schools? I don't think standards would collapse at all but there may be some slippage if the AI was removed completely. I don't even know that this would/should be a huge deal (likely depends on how far of a slip takes place) but I do know that whoever would win the title in an AI-free PL would immediately be accused of reducing admission standards.

I do think the AI is a sop to the Ivies but as long as that keeps the PL as the primary OOC opponent it may be worth it (even if Fordham benefits the least from that 'special relationship').

The other consideration is the faculty. On the surface the AI separates the PL & Ivies from the rest of the knuckle draggers. It takes time and effort to engage them in more in depth discussion and I don't think any school has interest in having it.

The AI also has some decent marketing-schtick appeal for the same reason. On the surface it allows the parent of a kid who receives 50% financial aid to still feel good about themselves when writing that $25K check every year since they can bring up the AI when they talk to their neighbor who's kid goes for free to 'Nova. "Our school still has standards!".


... If the new, Fordham-friendly PL wants Georgetown at 63 scholarships or else, than it's got a problem. If it's content to see Georgetown tag along, whatever the number (even if it's 10 or 12), then it'll be status quo. Again, if you could show me how we can get to 63 without spending a dime more than we are today, I agree that we're headed toward 63; otherwise, we're sticking with right where we're at b/c this whole decision has had nothing to do with committing more resources to the program or forcing other schools to spend the same as us ... it's just a much more effective way to spend the $$'s that we were already spending.

And after all these years of discussion on this board, there have not been any realistic candidates offered that are willing to spend $3-4 million a year and impose an AI. Maybe the PL doesn't really have any expansion candidates on the horizon. there's the rub. Evcen if Fordham prefered a new conference over a non-scholarship PL, where are we going to go? As much as the PL may want to show us the door, who are they going to pursue to replace us? Until there is more consensus it looks like everyone's best option to stay together for the kids.

FWIW, it's good to see Bogus hasn't stopped speaking out of the wrong hole when it comes to definitive statements about G-town or Fordham that are really nothing more than opinion. The more things change ... xbangx


If the PL goes scholarship, Georgetown bolts. If the Hoyas are going to play scholarship football, they might as well play in the Big East. Fordham clearly is gone either way, so a replacement that is able to follow the AI is needed.

Not surprising, since most HC fans (like Fordham fans) can't stand the PL and would rather be anywhere else.

Great OOC schedule by Lehigh, btw. And very good ones by 'Gate, HC and LC as well.

[Doc QB]

I think the patrons of the MVFC that have added posts here are probably correct and that we PL fans should really look at OOC strength of schedule a bit differently.

I have thought for a very long time that a strong OOC schedule would help the PL in numerous ways. One can compare themselves to stronger conferences and opponents, ones typically in the playoffs. But more importantly, it gives some more street cred to the PL winner and auto-bid rep by having some quality contests (not necessarily wins or "good" losses). Any autobid coming from a top heavy conference with weak OOC foes will always be viewed as suspect nationally and by AGS posters on this board on selection sunday, and an early round exit does nothting to help that cause. So why not bolster that rep by not scheduling OOC programs who do not have that national and playoff presence?

You strengthen that OOC schedule across the entire league a few years, perform well, and yes, maybe then we PL fans could clamour for consideration for a second league bid with some clout. But not yet, regardless of whether or not we have two teams in the top 25 at years end.

That being said, while I am extremely happy with LU and their OOC sched this year, it could be a year where we are in league contention with those two playoff teams giving us two "quality losses" and talk of possible playoff sucesses, or worse, two horrendous losses to programs where we want to be, on top of a bad league performance (and a for sale sign on Andy's front lawn). Should be an awesome season to watch either way.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Are you saying some PL schools, if left to their own devices, would risk their institutional reputation to admit some very questionable football players? Are you suggesting that the high academic standards for admission are just a corporate PL mechanism, and not a value that the member schools would adhere to individually?

How could you even suggest UMass or URI, who both that regularly uses Prop 48 and redshirt players, as 'ideal' candidates for the PL? Just a few years ago, many previous PL fans outright dismissed even considering schools like Monmouth or Marist based on the 'academic standards.' It seems like the tune is changing.



Academic, geographic, financial, philosophic, and historic factors seem to influence Patriot League membership and scheduling patterns, in varying degrees. According to its Charter, the PL should maintain high academic standards for athletes and maintain superior graduation rates and the realistic potential for post-graduation career success for athletes. The Charter also instructs league members to include athletes (in all sports) that are broadly representative of each institution’s - and the league’s - total enrollment. Travel costs are contained in a rational manner while philosophic mores dictate scholarship availability and time-away-from-class concerns.

Sader87 is correct in that the PL is geographically imbalanced (at least from a northeastern standpoint). That anomaly ought to be corrected because Holy Cross is a valued and desired league participant with an athletic story that is second to none in college sports. A PL that included more New England members (including perhaps some present CAA members) would help resolve that concern. It would address academic-time concerns and would moderate the game-opponent homogenization that sometimes tempers ongoing fan interest.

Overarching league-wide constraints limit the authority of each member but they also serve to balance internal competitiveness. Those constraints mitigate win-at-all-cost competitiveness so the PL for certain is not to everyone’s liking. There is a built-in bias in favor of maintaining the franchise of smaller colleges, for sure. No institutionally-delimiting factor would prevent a state university from membership. UNH, for example, would be an exemplary member in all respects as it stands now - but as a top-tier CAA program, why would it want to join? It wouldn’t. The current prospect of college athletics might possibly influence other New England state universities to explore membership. I have no idea if such consideration is even a possibility (though I think it would be nice if it were).

Complicating all of this is the historic relationship amongst the PL members and their principal OOC opponents, especially those of the Ivy League. That history far precedes the formation of either league. These are the places that literally invented college football. I suspect there remains some interest amongst fans and the institutions themselves - and even within the NCAA - in maintaining this history. I also suspect that history to a greater extent underlies PL members’ ongoing participation in Division I athletics.

Balancing of all those intertwined factors assuredly impacts the ability of the PL to obtain more than one FCS bid on a year-in, year-out basis. But given the size, history and identity of the PL’s member institutions, I maintain that they have performed admirably (though certainly not faultlessly) to date. Best of all, the PL holds plenty of room for measured advancement. It’s something that I look forward to.


* * * * * * * * * *

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Completely agree...the thing is, HC is just a very poor fit in the PL. We have hardly any commonalities with the Pennsylvania schools...in many ways we have a lot more in common with UNH, UMass and URI than the Pennsylvania trio of the PL.

I would have thought that being another private school would give some commonality? I mean you have so much in common with UNH that we've played how many football and basketball games in the last 25 years despite being an hour and a half apart? (I think I'm going to have fingers left on one hand when I count the games.) How many have you played with UMass and URI?

I'm just not sure where you see Holy Cross being a good fit? That Big East thing was 30 years ago. You're a parochial school and you don't have many peers who play FCS football. Are you looking for an all sports league with other parochials then play as a football affiliate? Do you and Fordham want to join America East, jump start AE Football and be associated with Maine, UNH, Albany, Stony Brook and probably Central CT? You do realize that this would also mean rubbing shoulders with two BU's? That would be the Comm. Ave. Terriers as well as the Southern Tier NY institution that is probably destined for NCAA penalties.

Sorry, I just have difficulty seeing a better option for Holy Cross than the Patriot. But that's just an outsider's view.

[DFW HOYA]

I'm just not sure where you see Holy Cross being a good fit? That Big East thing was 30 years ago. You're a parochial school and you don't have many peers who play FCS football.

Absent some initiative on its part, when Northeastern dropped out of CAA football, Holy Cross should have been first in line. The opportunity of HC to rebuild its proud football tradition alongside Maine, UNH, UMass, URI, and even Villanova would have been transformative.

[bison137]

Absent some initiative on its part, when Northeastern dropped out of CAA football, Holy Cross should have been first in line. The opportunity of HC to rebuild its proud football tradition alongside Maine, UNH, UMass, URI, and even Villanova would have been transformative.


Don't forget that would also have meant HC would have to drop out of the Patriot League in all other sports. I'm not sure that joining America East or the MAAC would be a positive step for them, and I doubt that the HC administration would view that as a positive step.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If you tell the committee that HC defeated Brown, Howard and Dartmouth in their OOC, do you really think that is a compelling argument as to why they should be in the playoffs? I doubt it. 3-2 OOC with losses to HU and Umass leaves HC at home.

This has been the problem with the Patriot League OOC schedule for a generation. The Ivy League does such a terrible job shopping their product nationally that we need to "sell" the committee that a win over a 7-3 Brown team with, say, a losses to HC, URI and Harvard as a good win. That WOULD be a good win, period, and IL and PL folks know it. But nobody else does, and that hurts the PL.

While I enjoy the affiliation with the IL and enjoy those games, I think aligning ourselves too closely with the IL is not right either. As a national FCS fan, I'm a lot more enthused by OOC games against Villanova and UNH than I am against Yale or Cornell. I think the way Lehigh has their schedule now is just right.


I have thought for a very long time that a strong OOC schedule would help the PL in numerous ways. One can compare themselves to stronger conferences and opponents, ones typically in the playoffs. But more importantly, it gives some more street cred to the PL winner and auto-bid rep by having some quality contests (not necessarily wins or "good" losses). Any autobid coming from a top heavy conference with weak OOC foes will always be viewed as suspect nationally and by AGS posters on this board on selection sunday, and an early round exit does nothting to help that cause. So why not bolster that rep by not scheduling OOC programs who do not have that national and playoff presence?

You strengthen that OOC schedule across the entire league a few years, perform well, and yes, maybe then we PL fans could clamour for consideration for a second league bid with some clout. But not yet, regardless of whether or not we have two teams in the top 25 at years end.

Again, the problem here is the fact that the PL has loaded up on IL opponents since their inception, and when the PL hitches their wagon to the IL so closely their inability to shop their football product nationally hurts us, too. A win over Harvard would mean a lot more nationally if they upset Delaware in the Tub the week before - or even if they gave Villanova a first-round scare in the playoffs the year before.

I think the key for any PL school is to schedule a variety of the best Eastern regional schools, period. Lehigh's schedule is a really nice balance of that, with an interesting out-of-region game to Drake as a bonus.

[Franks Tanks]

Absent some initiative on its part, when Northeastern dropped out of CAA football, Holy Cross should have been first in line. The opportunity of HC to rebuild its proud football tradition alongside Maine, UNH, UMass, URI, and even Villanova would have been transformative.

You are assuming the CAA desired to add a new member.

I others have pointed out where does Holy Cross want to go? Who do they want to associate themeslves with?

Despite the location Holy Cross has a lot in common with Colgate, Lafayette and the other PL liberal arts college. The Cross is uniquely positioned as a catholic liberal arts college, but also gives them a bit of an identity crisis.

Do they identify with the PL (small, selective schools playing D-I)?

Do they identify with other Catholic Colleges who want to focus on basketball (what about football)?

Do they indetify with other schools in New England?

I dont think they have a plan or a consensus.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Completely agree...the thing is, HC is just a very poor fit in the PL. We have hardly any commonalities with the Pennsylvania schools...in many ways we have a lot more in common with UNH, UMass and URI than the Pennsylvania trio of the PL.

Not academically you don't. (Well, maybe with UNH.)

What's frustrating is that Bryant was a perfect choice for PL membership in a lot of ways - up-and-coming private school, a new footprint for the PL - and also would have provided a potential travel/rivalry partner for Holy Cross. But nothing came of it, and instead Bryant went to the NEC. HC has needed a northern partner for a long, long time, yet when a decent candidate comes down the pike the PL presidents sit on their hands.

The same could be said down south for Navy (and G'Town in football). VMI seems like a perfect fit in so many ways in all sports. Why not pursue them? Loyola (MD) doesn't offer football - but could, and would bolster all sports in the PL. Why not consider them?

This goes back to the same old chestnut that LUHawker and I constantly keep kicking around every third thread. He thinks we need to just stand pat and last year's national champions will suddenly come to the conclusion that a restrictive AI and a weaker conference schedule is exactly what they want, and will come running into our arms if we just wait. I think the PL needs to expand, or die, and we need to bring in the VMI's, Loyola's, Bryant's - or even UNH and Maine, if something happens to the CAA. And if Bogus' thesis is true - that Fordham is basically gone - it's even more crucial that the PL expand.

[Fordham]

And if Bogus' thesis is true - that Fordham is basically gone - it's even more crucial that the PL expand. xbangxxbangxxbangx

[Bogus Megapardus]

Excellent, thoughtful posts above by Fordham and LFN. I think everyone agrees that historic IL and PL contests ought to be preserved, but that the IL and PL (to a lesser extent) are excessively insular. As it now stands, PL teams schedule five OOC games and IL teams schedule three (the latter with a ten-game slate). An ideal schedule for PL and IL teams would be similar to Lehigh’s upcoming games. If the IL simply would take advantage of its unperfected AQ eligibility, and if both leagues would schedule more or less uniformly against better full-scholarship competition across the country (two such games for PL, one for IL), the existing questions about PL and IL worthiness largely would be resolved.

I commend Fordham on taking a stand on PL scholarships. We are all Division I colleges and we ought to play up like everyone else or get out. It’s that simple. It is my unique opinion that Fordham is a prototypical PL member whose PL allegiance can serve only to increase the league’s stature; whose particular, storied record serves to better the PL as a whole. Like Holy Cross, Fordham possesses a student-athlete legacy that transcends the rest of the PL and an alumni base that ought to be the envy of any institution that considers itself amongst the most academically competitive anywhere. I wish that Fordham would participate in the PL in all sports.

I stray because of my personal, idiosyncratic impression (which I do tend to express on this board) that a vocal cross-section of Fordham supporters tend to liken the PL to an albatross that drags Fordham down and preys upon the remnants of its affiliation. The preferred perception from my chair would be a uniquely and specially competitive Fordham program that both revels in PL competition and serves to elevate the level of other PL members. My cumulative assessment of the anecdotes directed at my expressed views leads me a contrary conclusion, however. Again, this is nothing but a personal view, expressed on this board. In no way does it reflect the opinion of PL supporters in general.

Fordham has shown that it can underwrite a full complement of football scholarships. This ought to be praised, not derided. Others in the PL have not matched that ante. The question is whether Fordham ought to play its hand despite the league’s current preference. I suppose I would rather play at a table where the other can play all-in to make a game of it. My perception (for better or for worse) is that Fordham views it otherwise. I don’t know if the rest of the PL will toss a nickel in but Fordham seems to be unwilling to sit down and drain a beer while the others count their change. That’s their prerogative, of course. Maybe it will prompt some action, or maybe not. My personal take is that Fordham has picked up its cards and moved on to a different game.



* * * * * * * * *

[ngineer]

Fordham is playing Assumption - partly due to A's Head Coach is a former fordham ftbl player.
in 2011 Fordham @ U Conn -- and going forward FU will be playing a "1A " school each year. which will obv. improve OOC schedule. imagine URI, Columbia will be annual games as well.

in unrelated tidibts.. altho FU offers scholly's we cannot redshirt or bring in 5th yr transfers (PL rules). I spoke to asst. Rich Wallinger sp. this morning.. in addition, he said no clue as far as PL deciding to go scholly or not. my take on that was continued feet dragging and indecision..

Is that an assumption?

[Redbird Ray]

Let me just add one more thing. I think the history and pagentry of the Patriot League is awesome, and I'm glad that the league champ is invited to the playoffs. I wish more PL and IVY games were on national TV, just because I think it's such a unique demo (although I think this about most FCS football as well).

It would be nice to see PL/IVY teams play out of their conferences every now and then. I would love to have an IVY or PL team come to Hancock during the regular season. (I would also love to see a HBCU come here as well). And vice-versa (playing on the road at PL/HBCU). I know this goes against the storied rivalries these leagues have with each other, but it would definitely establish more credibility, and offer some fun match-ups for all us normal state schools.

[Franks Tanks]

Is that an assumption?

With Notre Dame current schedule they will be playing Assumption soon. Their HC is a Assumption alum so I guess they will use that excuse as well!

[Fordham83]

Fordham plays UConn in 2011, Navy and Villanova in '12 , Army 2014 and 15. It is rumored we inquired to play one of the following teams Rutgers, Bowling Green , Duke in 2013. BG head coach is former Fordham HC (Dave Clawson).. u can tease us about our OOC but not much longer. its also expected (but not in stone) FU would like to keep annual games with URI and Columbia..

[LUHawker]

Not academically you don't. (Well, maybe with UNH.)

What's frustrating is that Bryant was a perfect choice for PL membership in a lot of ways - up-and-coming private school, a new footprint for the PL - and also would have provided a potential travel/rivalry partner for Holy Cross. But nothing came of it, and instead Bryant went to the NEC. HC has needed a northern partner for a long, long time, yet when a decent candidate comes down the pike the PL presidents sit on their hands.

The same could be said down south for Navy (and G'Town in football). VMI seems like a perfect fit in so many ways in all sports. Why not pursue them? Loyola (MD) doesn't offer football - but could, and would bolster all sports in the PL. Why not consider them?

This goes back to the same old chestnut that LUHawker and I constantly keep kicking around every third thread. I think the PL needs to expand, or die, and we need to bring in the VMI's, Loyola's, Bryant's - or even UNH and Maine, if something happens to the CAA. And if Bogus' thesis is true - that Fordham is basically gone - it's even more crucial that the PL expand.

LFN - I appreciate you trying to speak for me "He thinks we need to just stand pat and last year's national champions will suddenly come to the conclusion that a restrictive AI and a weaker conference schedule is exactly what they want, and will come running into our arms if we just wait."; however, I am more than capable and have never said we should just stand pat or that VU will suddenly come running. I don't think that we disagree that the PL needs to be proactive and do something. Where we disagree seems to revolve around which schools to pursue. I do not think the PL needs schools like Marist or Monmouth or Bryant nor do I think it needs to rush to add members. I do, however, believe that it needs to add scholarships and see what opportunities that may open - fully recognizing that the PL's most attractive prospects are most likely unavailable (at least currently). I, for one, am in the camp of making sure to make the right choice for additional members, even if that takes longer, while it appears that you come down more on the side of get some school into the league very soon, even if it is only a marginal fit. It's ok that we disagree. xsmiley_wix

[Go...gate]

A lot of HC alumni (and fans) care more about the non-league Ivy football games than the PL games.

Same at Colgate....