FCS Academic Endowments

[DFW HOYA]

The largest: Harvard ($25 billion)
The smallest: Austin Peay St. ($5 million)

http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/research/2009_NCSE_Public_Tables_Endowment_Market_Values.pd f

[Bogus Megapardus]

Looks like Austin Peay has two separate endowments listed totaling about $13.5 million. The smallest private endowment seems to be Bobby Mo at about $16 million. Marist is marginally better at $18.6 million. Some private high schools are higher.

Georgetown is about the same as Lehigh, IIFC.

[CFBfan]

The largest: Harvard ($25 billion)
The smallest: Austin Peay St. ($5 million)

http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/research/2009_NCSE_Public_Tables_Endowment_Market_Values.pd f

i am off by thinking that with such a "household name", national footprint and academic reputation, Georgetown should be quite a bit higher than it is??

[Bogus Megapardus]

i am off by thinking that with such a "household name", national footprint and academic reputation, Georgetown should be quite a bit higher than it is??

xlolx That's what the Lehigh people like to think, too.

[ngineer]

Lehigh has had the 'misfortune' of being founded by a railroad tycoon with alot of its assets related to the LVRR and then, later, Bethlehem Steel. Considering the demise of both, the institution has done quite well. Indeed, when I was in school there, 40 years ago, the endowment was quite piddling compared to peer schools.

[bluehenbillk]

Pretty steep drop in those #'s in one year, schools see their totals go down by a fifth or a quarter or more........

[CFBfan]

Pretty steep drop in those #'s in one year, schools see their totals go down by a fifth or a quarter or more........



With exotic strategies and illiquid investments, the endowments racked up the following investment losses in their latest fiscal year:

Harvard: 27%
Columbia: 16%
Princeton: 24%
MIT: 17%
Cornell: 26%
Brown: 23%
Those losses compare to the 18% drop for the median large endowment.

[MplsBison]

Out of morbid curiosity and having zero background in finance....what sort've things are these 'endowments' invested in?

Stocks? Bonds? Real estate?

???

[Bogus Megapardus]

Out of morbid curiosity and having zero background in finance....what sort've things are these 'endowments' invested in?

Stocks? Bonds? Real estate?

???

Peruvian frozen concentrated orange juice futures.

[bostonspider]

I am happy to see that the Spiders have the highest "non Ivy" Academic Endowment of all the FCS schools. Richmond also has an Athletic Endowment in the 100M range, do many other schools have something like this as well?

[Big Al]

Out of morbid curiosity and having zero background in finance....what sort've things are these 'endowments' invested in?

Stocks? Bonds? Real estate?

???

In a fashion, yes. Since they're dealing with such large numbers, it's going to be in hedge funds and the like, which will invest in stocks, bonds, REITs, derivatives and any number of financial products.

[Franks Tanks]

In a fashion, yes. Since they're dealing with such large numbers, it's going to be in hedge funds and the like, which will invest in stocks, bonds, REITs, derivatives and any number of financial products.

Yes, and mortgage backed securites were purchased by "institutional" investors such as colleges.

[danefan]

In a fashion, yes. Since they're dealing with such large numbers, it's going to be in hedge funds and the like, which will invest in stocks, bonds, REITs, derivatives and any number of financial products.

They are essentially their own hedge funds and are run by guys that would otherwise be running hedge funds.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Everyone here probably donates, to a greater or lesser extent, to a college. With the massive endowment losses it make it difficult to give any money at all to a college because it might well simply disappear, never to benefit either your family or your college.

[CFBfan]

Everyone here probably donates, to a greater or lesser extent, to a college. With the massive endowment losses it make it difficult to give any money at all to a college because it might well simply disappear, never to benefit either your family or your college.

if you look back there are years where they had substantial market gains, it's not all bad Bogus!

[Bogus Megapardus]

if you look back there are years where they had substantial market gains, it's not all bad Bogus!

So it's better to have had it and lost it than not to have had it at all . . . . xrolleyesx

[Big Al]

They are essentially their own hedge funds and are run by guys that would otherwise be running hedge funds.

Yes, this is especially true for the large schools and schools with large endowments.

[Big Al]

Everyone here probably donates, to a greater or lesser extent, to a college. With the massive endowment losses it make it difficult to give any money at all to a college because it might well simply disappear, never to benefit either your family or your college.

Do you still put $$ into your IRA and 401(k)? It's the same sort of risk.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Everyone here probably donates, to a greater or lesser extent, to a college. With the massive endowment losses it make it difficult to give any money at all to a college because it might well simply disappear, never to benefit either your family or your college.


if you look back there are years where they had substantial market gains, it's not all bad Bogus!


Yes, this is especially true for the large schools and schools with large endowments.

To put this in a bit of perspective: Harvard's endowment went from 36.5 BILLION to 25.5 BILLION dollars from 2008 to 2009. I can see Bogus' point: your $100 contribution seems like a drop in the ocean when the loss is 11 BILLION dollars.

[colorless raider]

Out of morbid curiosity and having zero background in finance....what sort've things are these 'endowments' invested in?

Stocks? Bonds? Real estate?

???

I don't think you are going to make the Academic Index.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I don't think you are going to make the Academic Index.

^^^ Academic Windex

[Redwyn]

The largest: Harvard ($25 billion)
The smallest: Austin Peay St. ($5 million)

http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/research/2009_NCSE_Public_Tables_Endowment_Market_Values.pd f

I don't think these are the university's full endowments, so hard to totally judge. SBU's by even modest estimates is nearly triple what's listed here. Harvard's budget also looks a bit small (if that's even feasible!)

My guess would be this is only a single category within the larger athletic budget sphere. Could be wrong, but a few of these numbers just don't make sense.

[RichH2]

Amazing the vast sums of $$$ in endowments for colleges when consideredas a whole segment of the economy. I know LU has recovered most of the $$ lost in the meltdown. I would expect that it will take most of this decade before most go positive

[DFW HOYA]

I don't think these are the university's full endowments, so hard to totally judge. SBU's by even modest estimates is nearly triple what's listed here. Harvard's budget also looks a bit small (if that's even feasible!)


These are the numbers from the National Association of College and University Business Officers and I think they're fairly on target after the losses in the stock market. The SBU numbers look consistent if the school has only began large scale endowment investing in the last 20 years--remember, a $200 million campaign doesn't add $200 million to an endowment. Georgetown had a $1 billion campaign from 1998-2003 which added only a third of that to the endowment and the rest was paying the bills.

Another interesting number not on this link is endowment by student. Let's rank the Patriot League foorball schools on endowment:

1. Lehigh ($886M)
2. Georgetown ($883M)
3. Colgate ($560M)
4. Lafayette ($535M)
5. Holy Cross ($489M)
6. Bucknell ($444M)
7. Fordham ($330M)

Rank them by endowment per student, and it's a different story:

1. Colgate ($203,966 per student)
2. Lafayette ($192,517)
3. Holy Cross ($173,805)
4. Bucknell ($124,957)
5. Lehigh ($124,209)
------------
6. Georgetown ($57,656)
7. Fordham ($22,512)

Finally, take a 5% return on what the endowment is returning annually per student and you can see that the associate members are heavily tuition dependent and less able to use the endowment to fund expansion:

1. Colgate ($10,198 per student per year)
2. Lafayette ($9,625)
3. Holy Cross ($8,690)
4. Bucknell ($6,247)
5. Lehigh ($6,210)
------------
6. Georgetown ($2,882)
7. Fordham ($1,125)

[MplsBison]

Yeah but most of the Patriot schools are just small liberal arts colleges, not major research universities.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Yeah but most of the Patriot schools are just small liberal arts colleges, not major research universities.

xnodx

I love it when someone uses the term, "major research university." I hear/read it all the time - sort of like "leadership qualities" and "crisis management." Does anyone even know what that means? And why would an institution really want to be one? For that matter, which is "major," the research or the university? Are there places where the sort of research performed is other than "major?" How about a "minor research college?" Surely no one would go there. So do tenured doctorate faculty at PL colleges do less research, more insignificantly than is done elsewhere? Do you even know?

BTW - the members of the Patriot League are generally better known as engineering/hard science institutions than they are as liberal arts colleges. In other words, they do the "search" so others can "research." But they're fine liberal arts places too, if that's what floats your boat.

[superman7515]

I noticed some schools aren't even listed. Does this imply they have no endowment at all, or simply didn't take the time to fill out the information?

[RichH2]

Bison has expanded his spew of misinformation. Clearly knows little of the PL to state that they are "little liberal arts"colleges. Gosh almighty, I wish he would just stop.

Lu's increased size certainly a detriment in per student endowment totals. Lastfund raiser will put some $$ towards endowment but most is for identified projects .

[Ivytalk]

With exotic strategies and illiquid investments, the endowments racked up the following investment losses in their latest fiscal year:

Harvard: 27%
Columbia: 16%
Princeton: 24%
MIT: 17%
Cornell: 26%
Brown: 23%
Those losses compare to the 18% drop for the median large endowment.

Way to go, Harvard! Biggest wins, biggest losses! FIRE THE ENDOWMENT MANAGER! FOR HE IS POORLY ENDOWED!!:p:p

[DFW HOYA]

I love it when someone uses the term, "major research university." I hear/read it all the time - sort of like "leadership qualities" and "crisis management." Does anyone even know what that means?

I've seen "major" defined as a minimum of $40 million in federally funded research. It may also include a certain number (100?) of doctorate-level degree candidates annually.

[Sader87]

xnodx

I love it when someone uses the term, "major research university." I hear/read it all the time - sort of like "leadership qualities" and "crisis management." Does anyone even know what that means? And why would an institution really want to be one? For that matter, which is "major," the research or the university? Are there places where the sort of research performed is other than "major?" How about a "minor research college?" Surely no one would go there. So do tenured doctorate faculty at PL colleges do less research, more insignificantly than is done elsewhere? Do you even know?

BTW - the members of the Patriot League are generally better known as engineering/hard science institutions than they are as liberal arts colleges. In other words, they do the "search" so others can "research." But they're fine liberal arts places too, if that's what floats your boat.

Yet another reason why HC doesn't belong in the PL.

[Bogus Megapardus]

federally funded research

Does it count as research if it's not on the dole? Just wondering . . .


Yet another reason why HC doesn't belong in the PL.

I know you guys will come up with a few more reasons once you get your heads together. You always do.

[TheValleyRaider]

BTW - the members of the Patriot League are generally better known as engineering/hard science institutions than they are as liberal arts colleges. In other words, they do the "search" so others can "research." But they're fine liberal arts places too, if that's what floats your boat.

They are? xconfusedx

[Bogus Megapardus]

They are? xconfusedx

Colgate's engineering program is a 3-2 in conjunction with Columbia or RPI (Holy Cross has a 3-2 paired with Dartmouth) but it certainly has more hard science than a typical liberal arts college. Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, Navy and Army all have substantial, well-regarded engineering programs and facilities.

The point is that PL members in general are not known as "just small liberal arts colleges" as the poster implied. Yet several of them (including Colgate) do fit that description in the accepted definition - they are comparatively smaller in population, tend to have full, doctorate-holding professors rather than TAs doing undergraduate instruction, are principally (i.e. > 95%) residential and their majors focus on classical arts and sciences rather than vocational needs.

I suppose I was reacting to the poster's pejorative tone more than anything else. The PL gets bashed around a lot here and I tend to defend its good points when I can.

[CFBfan]

Originally Posted by MplsBison
Yeah but most of the Patriot schools are just small liberal arts colleges, not major research universities.



I love it when someone uses the term, "major research university." I hear/read it all the time - sort of like "leadership qualities" and "crisis management." Does anyone even know what that means? And why would an institution really want to be one? For that matter, which is "major," the research or the university? Are there places where the sort of research performed is other than "major?" How about a "minor research college?" Surely no one would go there. So do tenured doctorate faculty at PL colleges do less research, more insignificantly than is done elsewhere? Do you even know?

BTW - the members of the Patriot League are generally better known as engineering/hard science institutions than they are as liberal arts colleges. In other words, they do the "search" so others can "research." But they're fine liberal arts places too, if that's what floats your boat.
Bogus, why do you even waste time responding to this.....have you read even one comment from him that was worth while to discuss???

[MplsBison]

xnodx

I love it when someone uses the term, "major research university." I hear/read it all the time - sort of like "leadership qualities" and "crisis management." Does anyone even know what that means? And why would an institution really want to be one? For that matter, which is "major," the research or the university? Are there places where the sort of research performed is other than "major?" How about a "minor research college?" Surely no one would go there. So do tenured doctorate faculty at PL colleges do less research, more insignificantly than is done elsewhere? Do you even know?

BTW - the members of the Patriot League are generally better known as engineering/hard science institutions than they are as liberal arts colleges. In other words, they do the "search" so others can "research." But they're fine liberal arts places too, if that's what floats your boat.

Major as in hundreds of millions of dollars in research per year.

Sure there are tons of schools that still do research at a level below that.


Here's a couple lists for your information:

(BTW these are for the 2008 fiscal year and they were just released by the NSF this month)

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf10311/pdf/tab34.pdf
http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf10311/pdf/tab35.pdf


You'll find the Patriot schools except Gtown in the 2nd link (rankings for universities without a med school). They are all pretty low on the rankings. Lehigh was I think the highest in the rankings at 90 with ~40 million dollars. For comparison, NDSU was ranked 39th with ~115 million dollars.


Georgetown is lower that I expected. Still pretty good with ~150 million dollars but I was expecting something closer to NYU for some reason, not sure why.



Colorado State has probably broken the 300 million dollar mark by now. I would expect in this next round of conference realignments that if they can get into the Big XII they'll probably be considered for AAU status.

[Bogus Megapardus]

They are all pretty low on the rankings.

Darn. I knew I shoulda gone to North Dakota.

[bison137]

Darn. I knew I shoulda gone to North Dakota.


Fortunately the graduates of the "small liberal arts colleges" of the Patriot League on average make a lot more money than the graduates of almost all of the so-called major research universities.

[DFW HOYA]

Fortunately the graduates of the "small liberal arts colleges" of the Patriot League on average make a lot more money than the graduates of almost all of the so-called major research universities.

Yes and no.

Since many of the major research universities have non-graduates or people that settle for lesser paying jobs the average salaries tend to be lower. However, in the specialized research fields, these schools tend to score at a much higher rate of success than liberal arts, e.g., the kid that went to Tennessee and burned out after two years may not be making at Sears what a Holy Cross alum does, but the Tennessee Ph.D. in the applied sciences working at Google is probably well past the liberal arts grads by now.

[Franks Tanks]

Yes and no.

Since many of the major research universities have non-graduates or people that settle for lesser paying jobs the average salaries tend to be lower. However, in the specialized research fields, these schools tend to score at a much higher rate of success than liberal arts, e.g., the kid that went to Tennessee and burned out after two years may not be making at Sears what a Holy Cross alum does, but the Tennessee Ph.D. in the applied sciences working at Google is probably well past the liberal arts grads by now.

And the "liberal arts" school grads dont have PHD's? This is about undergraduate education. The quality of education a freshman Chemistry major will recieve has no correlation with the amount of research done at the school.

Also check your facts. Lafayette and Bucknell and Colgate graduate as many Biology, Engineering, and Chem majors as they do English and History.

[Franks Tanks]

Major as in hundreds of millions of dollars in research per year.

Sure there are tons of schools that still do research at a level below that.


Here's a couple lists for your information:

(BTW these are for the 2008 fiscal year and they were just released by the NSF this month)

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf10311/pdf/tab34.pdf
http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf10311/pdf/tab35.pdf


You'll find the Patriot schools except Gtown in the 2nd link (rankings for universities without a med school). They are all pretty low on the rankings. Lehigh was I think the highest in the rankings at 90 with ~40 million dollars. For comparison, NDSU was ranked 39th with ~115 million dollars.


Georgetown is lower that I expected. Still pretty good with ~150 million dollars but I was expecting something closer to NYU for some reason, not sure why.



Colorado State has probably broken the 300 million dollar mark by now. I would expect in this next round of conference realignments that if they can get into the Big XII they'll probably be considered for AAU status.

Again the amount of research performed at a university has virtually no correlation to the quality of the undergrad education. Many of the folks engaging in this research never teach a class. It is simply a research center on a college campus. The Phd profs at many of these places never, ever teach an undergrad class. TA's who are essentially research assistants teach the undergrad classes.

PL school have profs with Phd's teach all undergrad classes. These are very bright and highly qualified folks who also love to teach. What a novel concept.. a school employing faculty that actually enjoys to teach.

[Bogus Megapardus]

PL school have profs with Phd's teach all undergrad classes.

That was the first and foremost factor in my undergraduate college decision. You can look up the tenured faculty and assess their qualifications before deciding where to attend. You can't do the same with a graduate teaching assistant. It's pure luck of the draw. You have no idea whatsoever who will be instructing you or what their level of insight might be.

Many years after my graduation, I still keep in contact with those professors and they still teach at the College. I have made referrals, received guidance and and have been plugged into the right networks as a result. In fact, it's encouraged. Because it's a small place, the faculty will absolutely remember who you are. There's something to be said about that as well.

[MplsBison]

Again the amount of research performed at a university has virtually no correlation to the quality of the undergrad education. Many of the folks engaging in this research never teach a class. It is simply a research center on a college campus. The Phd profs at many of these places never, ever teach an undergrad class. TA's who are essentially research assistants teach the undergrad classes.

PL school have profs with Phd's teach all undergrad classes. These are very bright and highly qualified folks who also love to teach. What a novel concept.. a school employing faculty that actually enjoys to teach.

How do you measure the quality of undergrad education?

[Franks Tanks]

How do you measure the quality of undergrad education?

Its is a bit intangible. How do you measure the value of any education???

My point is that the undergrad students dont have access to this research, nor are they particulary benefited by it.

Would you rather have a prof with 20 years teaching experience and a Phd. teaching a class of 35 students in Chem 101, or 250 students and a TA more concerned about his work in the lab?

[MplsBison]

Its is a bit intangible. How do you measure the value of any education???

My point is that the undergrad students dont have access to this research, nor are they particulary benefited by it.

Would you rather have a prof with 20 years teaching experience and a Phd. teaching a class of 35 students in Chem 101, or 250 students and a TA more concerned about his work in the lab?

Having a PhD doesn't mean you're a better teacher. Again, it's related to research. If you're a good researcher who can bring grants to the school, you're worth your weight in gold to the university.

I'm not so sure that I want an award-winning nanotechnology researcher trying to explain covalent bonds to my 19 year old.


To major research universities, undergrads are more or less just there to pay the bills. They will graduate with a diploma from a university with a national reputation in exchange for footing the school's budget.

A kid applying for an engineering job in Minneapolis with an undergrad degree from Penn State is going to get a lot of call-backs whereas a kid with an undergrad degree from Lehigh or Bucknell is probably going to get a lot of questions like "where is that school and does it have an accredited program?".

Likewise, a kid applying for an engineering job in Philadelphia with an undergrad degree from the U of Minn is going to get a lot of call-backs whereas a kid with an undergrad degree from St. Thomas is probably going to get a lot of questions like "where is that school and does it have an accredited program?".

[Franks Tanks]

Having a PhD doesn't mean you're a better teacher. Again, it's related to research. If you're a good researcher who can bring grants to the school, you're worth your weight in gold to the university.

I'm not so sure that I want an award-winning nanotechnology researcher trying to explain covalent bonds to my 19 year old.


To major research universities, undergrads are more or less just there to pay the bills. They will graduate with a diploma from a university with a national reputation in exchange for footing the school's budget.

A kid applying for a engineering job in Minneapolis with an undergrad degree from MIT is going to get a lot of call-backs. A kid with an undergrad degree from Lehigh or Bucknell is probably going to get a lot of questions like "where is that school and does it have an accredited program?".

Bucknell and Lehigh have some of the most respected engineering programs in the U.S. at the undergarduate level. M.I.T is not a good example because nobody really compares with MIT, but I can assure you that Bucknell engineering grads are doing just fine.

Also no crap having a PHd does not automatically qualify someone as being a good teacher. Missed the point again--- these PHD's are at colleges like Bucknell because they desire to teach students, just not perform research.

[MplsBison]

I changed the example to Penn State, there happy?


I also looked at the ECE faculty listings for Lehigh and I see Professor PhD's from Ohio State, Carnegie Mellon (2), Cal Tech, Cornell, Johns Hopkins and Penn. All are major research universities.

http://www.ece.lehigh.edu/index.php?page=faculty (note I only checked those with the title "Professor").

Have no doubt about it: all of these professors are doing research. They may not be pulling down multi-million dollar NSF grants, but they are doing funded research.


NDSU has a well respected engineering program too, but my point is that no one outside of the upper midwest knows about it because NDSU is not a major research university with a national reputation. We do have a pretty good research program going, though.

[Sader87]

That was the first and foremost factor in my undergraduate college decision. You can look up the tenured faculty and assess their qualifications before deciding where to attend. You can't do the same with a graduate teaching assistant. It's pure luck of the draw. You have no idea whatsoever who will be instructing you or what their level of insight might be.

Many years after my graduation, I still keep in contact with those professors and they still teach at the College. I have made referrals, received guidance and and have been plugged into the right networks as a result. In fact, it's encouraged. Because it's a small place, the faculty will absolutely remember who you are. There's something to be said about that as well.

Holy Cross is very much the same vis a vis its undergraduate education and its networking later on (through both professors and fellow alumni).

[Flames Fan 10]

Liberty isn't on the list.

[lucchesicourt]

Mplsbison, we at UCD now you have a very good engineering program. So, there are some who recognize your school's achievements outside your local area.

[MplsBison]

Mplsbison, we at UCD now you have a very good engineering program. So, there are some who recognize your school's achievements outside your local area.

Thanks. But you see my point...we don't and probably never will have the nationwide academic reputation of a Big Ten school or a U of Chicago, etc. Same thing for the Patriot League schools. They're great academically, but don't have a national academic reputation.

[GannonFan]

I am happy to see that the Spiders have the highest "non Ivy" Academic Endowment of all the FCS schools. Richmond also has an Athletic Endowment in the 100M range, do many other schools have something like this as well?

Delaware's got the highest, non-Ivy Academic Endowment of all "public" FCS schools, but that and a nickel doesn't buy very much these days. xlolx

[lucchesicourt]

Mplsbison,

UCD doesn't get the notoriety for its achievements by many, especially back east. I tell people (around New England-my original home state) I attended UC Davis, and the response is "who is that". I usually have to say a branch of the University of California, which has UCLA and Cal as its most popular schools. They seem to think of it as a lesser academic institution . I tell them UCD has just as high academic requirements, as do all UC's.

[JD51]

Thanks. But you see my point...we don't and probably never will have the nationwide academic reputation of a Big Ten school or a U of Chicago, etc. Same thing for the Patriot League schools. They're great academically, but don't have a national academic reputation.

I would see the Big Ten as having more national name recognition over UND as opposed to academic reputation (save a Michigan or Northwestern). Granted, I don't live anywhere near the area and don't have a lot to base that on other than that in my field we hear an awful lot about UND's Energy and Environmental Research Center.

I do see your point, but I had to throw a plug in for the EERC which has a solid global reputation.

[Sader87]

Thanks. But you see my point...we don't and probably never will have the nationwide academic reputation of a Big Ten school or a U of Chicago, etc. Same thing for the Patriot League schools. They're great academically, but don't have a national academic reputation.

That's just not true....Holy Cross has a very, very strong alumni network (and reputation) throughout the Midwest and the West Coast.

[poly51]

[QUOTE=Franks Tanks;1517332]Bucknell and Lehigh have some of the most respected engineering programs in the U.S. at the undergarduate level. M.I.T is not a good example because nobody really compares with MIT, but I can assure you that Bucknell engineering grads are doing just fine.

Here is where it really matters.

Best Engineering Colleges By Salary Potential - Full List
Best Engineering Colleges Starting Median Salary Mid-Career Median Salary

Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) $71,100 $126,000

Harvey Mudd College $71,000 $125,000

Stanford University $67,500 $124,000

Bucknell University $56,100 $116,000

Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (RPI) $62,500 $116,000

California Institute of Technology (CIT) $69,700 $115,000

Polytechnic Institute of New York University $62,700 $114,000

Lehigh University $57,400 $114,000

Carnegie Mellon University (CMU) $65,300 $113,000

University of California, Berkeley $57,100 $112,000

Worcester Polytechnic Institute (WPI) $61,100 $110,000

Colorado School of Mines $60,000 $109,000

Cornell University $58,000 $106,000

Georgia Institute of Technology $58,900 $105,000

New Jersey Institute of Technology (NJIT) $55,100 $104,000

Cooper Union $61,100 $102,000

California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo (CalPoly) $57,000 $102,000

Stevens Institute of Technology $59,400 $101,000

University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC) $53,900 $99,700

Villanova University $56,700 $99,000

Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology (RHIT) $61,100 $98,800

Clarkson University $55,400 $98,500

Drexel University $54,100 $98,000

Cal Poly number 17. Not bad for a school not allowed to give doctorates by state law.
http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/best-engineering-colleges.asp

[OhioHen]

Pretty steep drop in those #'s in one year, schools see their totals go down by a fifth or a quarter or more........

They're investing in the same market the rest of us use.

[Bogus Megapardus]

It's the income from market-invested endowments that makes life easier especially for private colleges. (Some endowment money has investment restrictions.) No one has been doing especially well. I wonder what the current numbers are and how investment profiles have changed? Are colleges looking more at foreign currencies? Less US industrials? Investment-backed real estate securities in Dubai? I hope no one's actually bought into Al Gore Carbon Credit Futures.

[Franks Tanks]

[QUOTE=Franks Tanks;1517332]Bucknell and Lehigh have some of the most respected engineering programs in the U.S. at the undergarduate level. M.I.T is not a good example because nobody really compares with MIT, but I can assure you that Bucknell engineering grads are doing just fine.

Here is where it really matters.

Best Engineering Colleges By Salary Potential - Full List
Best Engineering Colleges Starting Median Salary Mid-Career Median Salary

Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) $71,100 $126,000

Harvey Mudd College $71,000 $125,000

Stanford University $67,500 $124,000

Bucknell University $56,100 $116,000

Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (RPI) $62,500 $116,000

California Institute of Technology (CIT) $69,700 $115,000

Polytechnic Institute of New York University $62,700 $114,000

Lehigh University $57,400 $114,000

Carnegie Mellon University (CMU) $65,300 $113,000

University of California, Berkeley $57,100 $112,000

Worcester Polytechnic Institute (WPI) $61,100 $110,000

Colorado School of Mines $60,000 $109,000

Cornell University $58,000 $106,000

Georgia Institute of Technology $58,900 $105,000

New Jersey Institute of Technology (NJIT) $55,100 $104,000

Cooper Union $61,100 $102,000

California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo (CalPoly) $57,000 $102,000

Stevens Institute of Technology $59,400 $101,000

University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC) $53,900 $99,700

Villanova University $56,700 $99,000

Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology (RHIT) $61,100 $98,800

Clarkson University $55,400 $98,500

Drexel University $54,100 $98,000

Cal Poly number 17. Not bad for a school not allowed to give doctorates by state law.
http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/best-engineering-colleges.asp


Those are just "engineering schools". Here is how teh Liberal Arts schools of the PL stack up.

Colgate University $51,900 $122,000

Bucknell University $56,100 $116,000

Swarthmore College $55,900 $110,000

Amherst College $54,900 $109,000

Haverford College $46,200 $109,000

Bowdoin College $52,700 $106,000

Lafayette College $53,700 $106,000

Dickinson College $44,000 $105,000

Carleton College $45,400 $104,000

Washington and Lee University $51,800 $104,000

College of the Holy Cross $46,600 $104,000

Davidson College $45,800 $103,000

[Bogus Megapardus]

Here is how the Liberal Arts schools of the PL stack up.

Sorry, FT. No one ever heard of any of those places.

[MplsBison]

That's just not true....Holy Cross has a very, very strong alumni network (and reputation) throughout the Midwest and the West Coast.

Sorry, I don't buy it.

[bison137]

Thanks. But you see my point...we don't and probably never will have the nationwide academic reputation of a Big Ten school or a U of Chicago, etc. Same thing for the Patriot League schools. They're great academically, but don't have a national academic reputation.


Many of the PL schools have developed a national reputation at the top academic high schools all across the country. For example, one of Bucknell's top five states for incoming freshmen is California.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Thanks. But you see my point...we don't and probably never will have the nationwide academic reputation of a Big Ten school or a U of Chicago, etc. Same thing for the Patriot League schools. They're great academically, but don't have a national academic reputation.

I know better than to respond to this, but that's just baloney. The PL absolutely has a national reputation, in both engineering and liberal arts. Not as great as Harvard or Yale, sure, but they are right there in terms of national - and even international - recognition.

[Franks Tanks]

Many of the PL schools have developed a national reputation at the top academic high schools all across the country. For example, one of Bucknell's top five states for incoming freshmen is California.

Exactly. Important people and academic types are aware of the Patriot League schools and that is what counts.

Sven who works at a Pig farm in North Dakota may not know who Colgate or Lehigh is but that is completely irelevant.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Sven who works at a Pig farm in North Dakota may not know who Colgate or Lehigh is but that is completely irelevant.

Not to the PL guy who makes a bundle trading hog futures on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, it isn't. xrolleyesx

[OL FU]

Prior to paying attention to FCS boards, I was familiar with all of the schools in the Ivy league and the Patriot League. Can't say that for any any other conference (except the SoCon of course). My familiarity was not due to athletics. Not that I am the end all for that type of information, but if I know I can assure you that many others do.
















We are still going to kick Colgate's butt in the fallxsmiley_wix

[MplsBison]

Many of the PL schools have developed a national reputation at the top academic high schools all across the country. For example, one of Bucknell's top five states for incoming freshmen is California.

Maybe.

But I was referring more to the general public anyway. Ok, I get it, Bucknell is only for the elites.

But I seriously doubt 99% of the Twin Cities high school graduating seniors have ever heard of it.

[Franks Tanks]

Maybe.

But I was referring more to the general public anyway. Ok, I get it, Bucknell is only for the elites.

But I seriously doubt 99% of the Twin Cities high school graduating seniors have ever heard of it.

Bucknell doesnt need for 99% of kids in the Twin Cities to know of them, their not the University of Minnesota.

The need a few bright kids who are looking for a school like Bucknell to apply and attend.

[Bogus Megapardus]

But I seriously doubt 99% of the Twin Cities high school graduating seniors have ever heard of it.

This is silly. They probably haven't heard of Carnegie Mellon, Cooper Union or Harvey Mudd, either. But 100% of their guidance counselors certainly are aware of such places, and you'd thank your lucky stars to be admitted there. Sort of a "need to know basis" I suppose. As for being limited to "elites?" You might want to check the tuition rates at Cooper Union.