The More Things Change...

[DFW HOYA]

Here's an article from the Daily Pennsylvanian discussing the steep decline in Ivy football attendance.

The Penn AD is quoted as saying: ""I think we're in flux. I think the next five years or so will probably determine whether the Ivies continue to drift in football or take some tangible action to improve itself."

The article was written in 1997.

http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/node/9465

[MplsBison]

Over/under on scholarship football in the Ivy League?

10 years? 20 years? Never?

[Go...gate]

Can't help noting the many comments from David Roach, Brown's AD during that period and now Colgate's AD. If anything, Roach's marketing approach has driven fans away. He is arguably Colgate's worst AD ever.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The article was written in 1997.

Great minds contemplate at a very deliberate pace. These things take time . . . .


Over/under on scholarship football in the Ivy League?

10 years? 20 years? Never?

It's a thirteen year old student-written piece. Try to put it in context before predicting a sea-change.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

"The Ivy League needs to do a better job in promoting and marketing the league," Roach said. "One of the things we need to have is a T.V. package. By having a T.V. package and game of the week, what it does for the public is to give us more credibility."

Thirteen years later, the Ivy League (and the Patriot League, NEC, PFL, MVFC, SoCon...) are still waiting for such a TV deal to materialize. The MEAC and SWAC have a sort-of half-a deal with ESPN, and only the CAA has a workable "game of the week" TV package, though it's only through a network of local providers. Everyone else leaves it up to the individual schools to make and produce their own broadcasts and find distributors.

Since this is a 1997 article, of course, it fails to talk about the surge in live games available over the internet these days. I think today if you asked the question you may see that an Internet broadcast deal may be seen as more important than a network TV package.

[RichH2]

I am old enuf to recall that IL used to have a game of the week, at least in the NYC area. The noted article was only written during the last decade. It wont hit IL President's calendar until next decade. at which point it will be ignored. If H-Y game attendance falls below 20,000, then they'll have an 11th game and the playoffs promptly.

[Bogus Megapardus]

As available bandwidth increases and the alienation between digital broadband access and television receivers decreases, we'll all be able to watch any darn thing we please - it's almost that way now. Production qualities will become more important. Top journalism/media communications schools such as Syracuse, Boston University or Columbia are amply well-equipped to produce a broadcast looking and sounding as good or better than anything ESPN does.

Then nobody will even have to go to the games anymore - unless production values make the school and the venue look like a fun place you'd want to be on a Saturday afternoon.

[UAalum72]

The article repeats the excuse that the move to I-AA was a factor (if not cause) of the attendance decline from the 'pinnacle' of the 1980s. In fact the (league-only) attendance average when the Ivy League formed in the mid-1950s was around 21,000 and was still about 20,000 in 1970. The steep decline began then, falling to 13,000 by 1980. Relegation to I-AA didn't cause the attendance decline, it was an accurate reflection of Ivy football at the time.

Home attendance for all Ivy games last year was 9,008 - an all-time low, but it's been under 10,000 for seven of the last eight years.

[Ivytalk]

Back in the 1997 area, the Harvard-Yale game drew small crowds. I attended the '97 Game and the attendance was under 30,000. The Game at Harvard the year before or the year after was around 25,000. Now, The Game sells out at Harvard (30K) and usually hits 50K at Yale.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Those Brown at Columbia matches can be a tad sparse at times, though . . . .

[Gringer1]

Thirteen years later, the Ivy League (and the Patriot League, NEC, PFL, MVFC, SoCon...) are still waiting for such a TV deal to materialize.

The SoCon has a deal with SportSouth. They feature a Southern Conference football game every weekend in what they call "SoCon Saturday."

[DFW HOYA]

I am old enuf to recall that IL used to have a game of the week, at least in the NYC area. The noted article was only written during the last decade. It wont hit IL President's calendar until next decade. at which point it will be ignored. If H-Y game attendance falls below 20,000, then they'll have an 11th game and the playoffs promptly.

Give H-Y credit for keeping the rivalry relevant. Games like Dartmouth-Cornell (3,706 last year), Brown-Columbia (4,390) and even Penn-Princeton (14,027) are cratering in attendance. In consecutive weeks hosting Yale and Harvard, Columbia drew 2,461 and 2,896, respectively.

Look at this chart on average attendance at Princeton:

http://blogs.princeton.edu/paw/fball_attend.jpg


TV won't bring the crowd in per se but it adds an air of legitimacy to the game--e.g., if it's on TV, it might be worth going to, and there 's no good reason why an Ivy Game of the Week could not be marketed nationally.

(I wouldn't go that far with a PL game of the week, which won't happen due to the fact that Lehigh and Lafayette will not commit to a league-wide TV package.)

[Sader87]

I don't think Ivy attendence peaked in the 1980's....fairly certain league-wide, they had much larger attendences in the 1960's than they did in 1984.

Holy Cross is in the same boat (with some differences...poor league affiliation etc). There were regularly crowds in the 20,000 range at Fitton (non-BC games as well) in the 1980's. A good crowd now is considered anything above 7,000.

[Bogus Megapardus]

...poor league affiliation etc

xmadxxnonono2xxnonox

. . . . shoulda been in the Big East.

[Sader87]

Yes... we should have.

[UAalum72]

I don't think Ivy attendence peaked in the 1980's....fairly certain league-wide, they had much larger attendences in the 1960's than they did in 1984.
I pulled some numbers from this http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/documents/09fb-series.pdf and plugged them in to show the Ivy trend
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15068&stc=1&d=1269913708 Thru '87 are averages of league games; after 1998 are for all games, from ncaa.org

[Sader87]

The drop in attendence figures from the 50's& 60's (into into the early 70's) to attendence figures of the mid/late 80's can be attributed mainly to the drop in the level of play of the Ivy League overall. Remember, Yale and Dartmouth teams were ranked nationally into the late 60's and early 70's.

The drop from the late 80's to today is more societal imo i.e. the weekend football game has less import to alumni and students alike, more options (TV, internet) etc. etc.

[aceinthehole]

Thirteen years later, the Ivy League (and the Patriot League, NEC, PFL, MVFC, SoCon...) are still waiting for such a TV deal to materialize. The MEAC and SWAC have a sort-of half-a deal with ESPN, and only the CAA has a workable "game of the week" TV package, though it's only through a network of local providers. Everyone else leaves it up to the individual schools to make and produce their own broadcasts and find distributors.


Not that its a great deal, but the NEC has had a TV deal for football games with regional cable sports networks for the past 7 years.


The 2009 season marks the seventh straight that the NEC has aired football games as part of its extensive regional sports package. This coming winter, the league will air more than 20 men’s and women’s basketball games.
http://www.northeastconference.org/news/fball/2009/7/27/fb-tvschedulerel.asp?path=fball

[Franks Tanks]

Yes... we should have.

You guys dont even do all that well in the Patriot League (all sports) so how would you compete in the Big East? You won your first football championship in well over a decade, and you certainly dont dominate in basketball.

Go join the Big East and be like Providence and Seton Hall. Put all your hopes in basketball and suck terribly at the 8 other sports they sponsor and drop football. Oh-- Seton Hall, Providence, and St. Johns have sucked in basketball for some time-- they cant stay relevant either.

So join the Big East and drop football and suck at basketball. Have fun.

[Franks Tanks]

Yes... we should have.


Give H-Y credit for keeping the rivalry relevant. Games like Dartmouth-Cornell (3,706 last year), Brown-Columbia (4,390) and even Penn-Princeton (14,027) are cratering in attendance. In consecutive weeks hosting Yale and Harvard, Columbia drew 2,461 and 2,896, respectively.

Look at this chart on average attendance at Princeton:

http://blogs.princeton.edu/paw/fball_attend.jpg


TV won't bring the crowd in per se but it adds an air of legitimacy to the game--e.g., if it's on TV, it might be worth going to, and there 's no good reason why an Ivy Game of the Week could not be marketed nationally.

(I wouldn't go that far with a PL game of the week, which won't happen due to the fact that Lehigh and Lafayette will not commit to a league-wide TV package.)



Princeton's drop in attendance has really hurt the Ivy league. I looked back just for curiuosity. In 1999 we played Princeton on a beautiful day, and I remember the stadium being very full. The attendance was right around 15,000. When was the last time Princeton got a crowd like that?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Haven't you read, FT? The decline of Holy Cross sports from the Glory Years is because of the Patriot League. It's entirely the league's fault. If the PL would just curl up in a corner and shoot itself, HC once again would dominate in everything, "just like before."

[DFW HOYA]

You guys dont even do all that well in the Patriot League (all sports) so how would you compete in the Big East? You won your first football championship in well over a decade, and you certainly dont dominate in basketball.

Had Holy Cross accepted the Big East offer, they would be to the BE what Wake Forest is to the ACC, which isn't bad-- a solid if not spectacular NCAA entrant in basketball, a competitive baseball program, and the kind of football program that competes for a title (and now, for a BCS berth) every 10-15 years. (Wake has only 4400 students but is probably the third best school academically in the ACC).

Wake plays in a 32,000 seat stadium not larger than Fitton, and in an off-campus arena for basketball. Could Fitton have been expanded to 32,000 and be renovated for today's I-A landscape? Sure. Did it happen? Well, no.

[Franks Tanks]

Haven't you read, FT? The decline of Holy Cross sports from the Glory Years is because of the Patriot League. It's entirely the league's fault. If the PL would just curl up in a corner and shoot itself, HC once again would dominate in everything, "just like before."


But Bogus they won a NC in 1947! I saw a comment by a Holy Cross fan on a ESPN comment board expressing dis-belief that Holy Cross wasnt on CBS since they won the 47 title and all.

Guess what Holy Cross fans CCNY, LaSalle, Loyola (IL), and USF were also powers way back in the day. They all stink now and it will never be like to good old days for these programs.

Also I guess the evil empire of Lafayette, Lehigh, Bucknell and Colgate forced Holy Cross to join the Patriot League.

[Franks Tanks]

Had Holy Cross accepted the Big East offer, they would be to the BE what Wake Forest is to the ACC, which isn't bad-- a solid if not spectacular NCAA entrant in basketball, a competitive baseball program, and the kind of football program that competes for a title (and now, for a BCS berth) every 10-15 years. (Wake has only 4400 students but is probably the third best school academically in the ACC).

Wake plays in a 32,000 seat stadium not larger than Fitton, and in an off-campus arena for basketball. Could Fitton have been expanded to 32,000 and be renovated for today's I-A landscape? Sure. Did it happen? Well, no.

Do you seriously think Holy Cross would be playing Big East football? People in NC love college football and basketball. In Mass. its all about pro sports. Wake is also twice the size of Holy Cross.

I believe that if Holy Cross joined the Big East, and from some articles I read they were never oficially invited, they would be another Seton Hall or Providence. No football, terrible at just about every sport they offer, and a few good years in basketball here and there.

[DFW HOYA]

If the scenario was that Holy Cross had joined the Big East, stayed in I-A, and the conference was adding football, yes. Otherwise, HC would be where Villanova is now in the CAA, although not necessarily with a I-AA title as a result.

Then again, if Seton Hall had kept football in the 1980's, would they be in the PL today?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Do you seriously think Holy Cross would be playing Big East football? People in NC love college football and basketball. In Mass. its all about pro sports. Wake is also twice the size of Holy Cross.

That was not always true. The NFL Patsies used to be a real sad sack of a team playing in a low-grade college-like stadium. A refurbished Fitton could have given their old stadium a run for its money, IMO. Yes, the Red Sox and Celtics were a constant distraction from the joys of eastern college football, but it was never just a pure pro sports town.


I believe that if Holy Cross joined the Big East, and from some articles I read they were never oficially invited, they would be another Seton Hall or Providence. No football, terrible at just about every sport they offer, and a few good years in basketball here and there.

I sometimes wonder if BC would have never allowed Holy Cross to become a member of the Big East anyway at that time. Their relationship was strained in the mid-1980s and continues to this day.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Or, HC would have been in the Big East except for football, which would have been PL (like some schools we know). Seton Hall - many alums want to re-start football and play home games at Newark Schools Stadium. Now that they've dropped track (once a signature sport) I'm surprised the Pirates are still alive. Still, The Hall has many influential donors and a lot of political clout in NJ. After all, it is the college of choice of Tony Soprano (although James Gandolfini himself went to Rutgers).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If the scenario was that Holy Cross had joined the Big East, stayed in I-A, and the conference was adding football, yes. Otherwise, HC would be where Villanova is now in the CAA, although not necessarily with a I-AA title as a result.

Then again, if Seton Hall had kept football in the 1980's, would they be in the PL today?

As you know DFW, Georgetown took a circuitous path to PL football, one that St. John's and Seton Hall (and, for that matter, LaSalle and Duquesne) could have followed as well but instead chose to discontinue (or, in the case of the Dukes, pursue NEC football). PL football, though, was never the ultimate destination for football for Georgetown - it was a series of decisions, first to continue non-scholarship ball (first as D-III, then and D-I non-scholarship) and then the PL model and a hoped-for relationship with the Ivies.

All along the way almost all the D-I non-scholarship schools decided to drop football, with Title IX being given as the main excuse for dropping. Some folks even blame the decline of non-scholarship football in the northeast on the success of the Patriot League in the marketing of their league as "non-scholarship" but in actuality being closer to a limited-scholarship league.

The PL at first was meant to be its own sister all-sports league to the Ivy, including the postseason ban, academic indexes and the like. Its opening up to the wider FCS world was a slow, gradual process.

What's interesting to speculate is not so much on the decisions of the schools themselves, but to ask the question if the PL had marketed itself less as a rigid Ivy-like league but as more welcoming to associate members in football. I think especially in the early days the PL was a tight clique and unless you were a top 25 school academically or an exciting up-and-comer academically you need not apply. Even today some PL folks have that "clique mentality", and it hurts the expansion of the league. What's sad is that the PL might have been able to attract some more of these schools for football - and it would have helped the overall health of the league in all sports.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If the scenario was that Holy Cross had joined the Big East, stayed in I-A, and the conference was adding football, yes. Otherwise, HC would be where Villanova is now in the CAA, although not necessarily with a I-AA title as a result.


Or, HC would have been in the Big East except for football, which would have been PL (like some schools we know).

Actually, the PL wouldn't be in existence without Holy Cross. Not only were they the crucial 5th member, they also added Army and Navy in all sports except football.

[Bogus Megapardus]

As a PL advocate, I'm accustomed to hearing everyone else bash the league. OK, we downright suck by comparison to the rest of the FCS. I'm always saddened to hear it from our own ranks, however. I think the PL will survive as a league with a distinct identity, and not as a brand franchiser as are so many others. So no - the PL ought not to open its ranks to any comer who fills out an application and pays the processing fee.

There are so many eastern FCS schools, from Yale to Colgate to Monmouth to St. Francis, all competing for attendance, with a dwindling fan base whose attention is diverted to more immediately-gratifying forms of entertainment. All of them need marketing and other methods of retaining their relevance. The Ivy League is a powerful brand name and there would be no such thing as an "Ivy School" without football. Ivy football will remain even if attendance falls to 5,000 if only for this reason. It less requires marketing than do others. The Ivies are also very successful in sports other than football and their alumni understand and appreciate these sports even if the rest of the country never even heard of them.

Other FCS schools have decisions to make, but I don't think shifting allegiances and continual shuffling of conference members in order to "move up" is going to benefit any of them. Football scholarships, too, might soon become the exclusive domain of state-funded institutions, as more private schools recognize that a PL model can be sustained and might work best for them. This is true especially of the private schools, which do not have the luxury of simply "adding scholarships" with other people's money. So I don't agree that the PL must continually strive to expand and grow more powerful at the expense of its core purpose, just as I don't think that Ivy attendance declines are a harbinger of failure for them. As long as there's as much institutional and alumni interest in football as there is in, say, the Princeton Art Museum, the game will be on.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As a PL advocate, I'm accustomed to hearing everyone else bash the league. OK, we downright suck by comparison to the rest of the FCS. I'm always saddened to hear it from our own ranks, however. I think the PL will survive as a league with a distinct identity, and not as a brand franchiser as are so many others.

I think of myself as a PL advocate myself. I don't think we suck in comparison to the rest of FCS in any way. If we can get the best athletes and the best students, we will be competing for championships. We get a lot of them already, but if/when we allow athletic aid we'll get even more.

I think the PL does many things in the right way, especially in terms to academic requirements to be accepted into the school and some peer review between schools to make sure everyone is also competing in the right way. But while I believe that in an ideal world everyone would only pay for their education due to need (and be personally, financially invested in it), the reality is that schools are competing in a global marketplace. Scholarships in football can be used as a power for good, i.e., attracting the best academic and athletic performers to come to PL schools, and I think it should be used in that vein. When viewed along with the reality that it's the only way to compete with Ivy League schools - some of which give, in effect, full scholarships to go there for everyone, not just athletes - scholarships, IMO, are not just a luxury but a requirement.

I agree that the PL is a league with a distinct identity - the highest level of competition with stringent academic standards. But your desire to not have the PL be a "brand franchiser" misses the point. Every conference has to manage its brand, because that's what it is, a brand. It has to define what that league is, what it's about, and to get that message out to the world. If it doesn't, others will be glad to do it for you. And that's what folks have done with the Patriot League for years - "brand"-ing it as an effete, Ivy-lite conference that doesn't want to really compete at the highest level. It can take decades to undo this type of branding. I've been at this for a long time, and it's still hard to combat this mindset.


So no - the PL ought not to open its ranks to any comer who fills out an application and pays the processing fee.

There are so many eastern FCS schools, from Yale to Colgate to Monmouth to St. Francis, all competing for attendance, with a dwindling fan base whose attention is diverted to more immediately-gratifying forms of entertainment. All of them need marketing and other methods of retaining their relevance. The Ivy League is a powerful brand name and there would be no such thing as an "Ivy School" without football. Ivy football will remain even if attendance falls to 5,000 if only for this reason. It less requires marketing than do others. The Ivies are also very successful in sports other than football and their alumni understand and appreciate these sports even if the rest of the country never even heard of them.

What you say about the Ivy League is somewhat true - but then again, what precipitated this thread? A 1997 Daily Pennsylvanian article of marketing promises unfulfilled. You can't seriously say that the IL and its member schools have done a bang-up job marketing football, can you? Yes, to some degree it has a very well established brand, but they have done an extremely poor job of managing that athletic brand, especially in football. You could almost go as far as to say the "historic" aspect of the IL brand is a crutch that gives people an excuse to shrug their shoulders and do nothing.

The IL is sitting on the best brand anywhere. If there were a common goal of all eight schools to promote athletics better, I have little doubt that we'd see an Ivy League "Game of the Week" on YES, or maybe even their own regional network where Ivy League sports would be shown all the time. But nobody in the IL has the will to go ahead and set this up. In the meantime, too many IL folks are willing to piss away their brand and be displayed as a strange oddity, with ten-game schedules, no FCS playoffs, and no postseason tournament in basketball. If anyone ever chose to change those things, IL competition would be better and the athletes would have a better experience. But it probably won't happen - and it's because of brand management.


Other FCS schools have decisions to make, but I don't think shifting allegiances and continual shuffling of conference members in order to "move up" is going to benefit any of them. Football scholarships, too, might soon become the exclusive domain of state-funded institutions, as more private schools recognize that a PL model can be sustained and might work best for them. This is true especially of the private schools, which do not have the luxury of simply "adding scholarships" with other people's money. So I don't agree that the PL must continually strive to expand and grow more powerful at the expense of its core purpose, just as I don't think that Ivy attendance declines are a harbinger of failure for them. As long as there's as much institutional and alumni interest in football as there is in, say, the Princeton Art Museum, the game will be on.

Why do you automatically think that expansion would be at the expense of the PL's core purpose? What is wrong with telling Marist, VMI or Duquesne that in order to be a member you need to adhere to the Academic Index bands and be very selective with your athletes? That's not diluting the league's core purpose, that's shopping the brand and getting other schools to sign up! Who knows, maybe other schools might want to join up too?

I think there are schools that would have no problem with adhering the Patriot League's academic requirements as long as athletic aid is allowed. "No scholarships" has long been part of the PL's "brand", even though for years that has been untrue. It may be difficult to switch to scholarships for other structural reasons (like Title IX), but if it's possible and more schools will be able to become a part of the PL's "brand", why not?

Why can't anyone say "The Patriot League is a brand and in order to be a part of that brand, here's the roadmap to get you there"? The biggest problem with the Patriot League is that too many of its members and fans only want schools that already are Patriot League schools in spirit to join. I mean, of course RPI or MIT are candidates for the Patriot League if they ever cared to join! It's convincing the schools that are almost there but not quite - convincing Seton Hall to join as an associate member, or showing The Citadel and VMI that there's great value to joining up - to embrace these things! That's what makes a brand! That's what keeps a conference vibrant!

Like you, I don't think there's much to this "moving up to FBS" talk from other schools. Success stories like USF's and UConn's are rare. But I've also learned that leagues that don't look to expand their ranks have a tendency to die. You say you don't want to sully the PL's core purpose - but you have to survive to have a core purpose to defend. The only way forward for the PL is expansion of the academic model to other types of schools. Any other path leads to its demise.

[Sader87]

95% of hard-core sports fans in Massachusetts could not name all the football playing members of the Patriot League. (a hyberbolic made-up #...but you get the point).

Football and basketball-wise, the PL has destroyed whatever following HC had before it joined.

[Franks Tanks]

95% of hard-core sports fans in Massachusetts could not name all the football playing members of the Patriot League. (a hyberbolic made-up #...but you get the point).

Football and basketball-wise, the PL has destroyed whatever following HC had before it joined.

Join the Big East and go 10-22 every year like Providence.

[Bogus Megapardus]

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/4821/couldabeenbc.jpg

[Bogus Megapardus]

95% of hard-core sports fans in Massachusetts could not name all the football playing members of the Patriot League.

95% of of hard-core sports fans in Pennsylvania think that the College of the Holy Cross is a bunch of dudes in red hats in Rome who elect a Pope once in a while, but that's not the point. Fordham and Holy Cross people simply seethe with animosity toward the PL and do nothing to support or promote their own conference. I will assume that it has little to do with the other members' greater rate of success, but rather a perceived built-in bias against those schools.

[Sader87]

Join the Big East and go 10-22 every year like Providence.

That's an improvement on our 9-22 season in the PL this year!!!!

Hey, we "made our bed" and now we have to lie in it. This isn't meant to disparage the other schools in the PL (all of whom are probably superior both academically and athletically in all the minor sports), just that we were (and still are) very much a square peg in a round hole league: geographically, institutionally, historically etc. etc.

[Franks Tanks]

That's an improvement on our 9-22 season in the PL this year!!!!

Hey, we "made our bed" and now we have to lie in it. This isn't meant to disparage the other schools in the PL (all of whom are probably superior both academically and athletically in all the minor sports), just that we were (and still are) very much a square peg in a round hole league: geographically, institutionally, historically etc. etc.

The others schools in the PL grow tired of the way many HC fans feel about the PL. It does create a bit of animosity when one or two schools feel prepetually unhappy with the league.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

And your fan base was just as unhappy when in a league that made geographic sense (ECAC North Atlantic). Holy Cross to me seems more like a Patriot League school than it does a Big East school like UConn, Syracuse, Rutgers, Pitt, WVU, USF, Louisville, etc. Where does Holy Cross see itself, in an association with other parochials like Providence, Fordham, St. John's, Seton Hall, St. Joseph, LaSalle, etc.? xconfusedx Unless you're willing to significantly upgrade your athletic department and go FBS, joining BC in any affiliation is delusional.

[Franks Tanks]

And your fan base was just as unhappy when in a league that made geographic sense (ECAC North Atlantic). Holy Cross to me seems more like a Patriot League school than it does a Big East school like UConn, Syracuse, Rutgers, Pitt, WVU, USF, Louisville, etc. Where does Holy Cross see itself, in an association with other parochials like Providence, Fordham, St. John's, Seton Hall, St. Joseph, LaSalle, etc.? xconfusedx Unless you're willing to significantly upgrade your athletic department and go FBS, joining BC in any affiliation is delusional.

What league (if any) was Holy Cross in for B-Ball before the ECAC North Atlantic?

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

What league (if any) was Holy Cross in for B-Ball before the ECAC North Atlantic?

Not sure if they were in any league. xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx There really weren't a lot of leagues back then, most teams played as independents. The Ivy and Yankee are the only leagues that come to mind until they organized the ECAC into multiple divisions.

When UConn left, the Yankee fell apart as an all sports league. According to the UNH Basketball Media Guide, 1975-76 was the last year of Yankee Hoop. According to the America East website, the first year of ECAC North play was 1979-80, but they didn't have a conference schedule until 1981-82. Holy Cross was part of this group through the 82-83 season, Colgate through 89-90.

[Franks Tanks]

Thanks

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

FWIW, according to Wiki, the Eastern Collegiate Basketball League (AKA the Eastern 8) started play in 1975. The initial members were Penn State, West Virginia, Pittsburgh, Villanova, George Washington, Massachusetts, Rutgers and Duquesne.

That explains why Rhode Island also was initially in that "ECAC North" collection until they joined this ECBL in 1980.

[Go...gate]

As a PL advocate, I'm accustomed to hearing everyone else bash the league. OK, we downright suck by comparison to the rest of the FCS. I'm always saddened to hear it from our own ranks, however. I think the PL will survive as a league with a distinct identity, and not as a brand franchiser as are so many others. So no - the PL ought not to open its ranks to any comer who fills out an application and pays the processing fee.

There are so many eastern FCS schools, from Yale to Colgate to Monmouth to St. Francis, all competing for attendance, with a dwindling fan base whose attention is diverted to more immediately-gratifying forms of entertainment. All of them need marketing and other methods of retaining their relevance. The Ivy League is a powerful brand name and there would be no such thing as an "Ivy School" without football. Ivy football will remain even if attendance falls to 5,000 if only for this reason. It less requires marketing than do others. The Ivies are also very successful in sports other than football and their alumni understand and appreciate these sports even if the rest of the country never even heard of them.

Other FCS schools have decisions to make, but I don't think shifting allegiances and continual shuffling of conference members in order to "move up" is going to benefit any of them. Football scholarships, too, might soon become the exclusive domain of state-funded institutions, as more private schools recognize that a PL model can be sustained and might work best for them. This is true especially of the private schools, which do not have the luxury of simply "adding scholarships" with other people's money. So I don't agree that the PL must continually strive to expand and grow more powerful at the expense of its core purpose, just as I don't think that Ivy attendance declines are a harbinger of failure for them. As long as there's as much institutional and alumni interest in football as there is in, say, the Princeton Art Museum, the game will be on.

nice facility - and a decent place to study "back in the day".

[Sader87]

HC played essentially a "Big East" schedule before it was officially formed. The 78-79 sked included UConn, PC, Seton Hall, St John's, BC and Georgetown amoungst other Northeast powers.

The decision of HC not to join the Big East (and yes we were officially invited) was basically what led to the creation of the PL.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

HC played essentially a "Big East" schedule before it was officially formed. The 78-79 sked included UConn, PC, Seton Hall, St John's, BC and Georgetown amoungst other Northeast powers.

The decision of HC not to join the Big East (and yes we were officially invited) was basically what led to the creation of the PL.

Indeed - but, importantly, had HC accepted the invite, there would be no Patriot League since they were there for its creation. After that, for all I know Lehigh and Lafayette would have joined the Yankee Conference, Bucknell would be in the NEC and Colgate would still be angling to be the "ninth Ivy".

But to your broader point - absolutely, HC had a different background than the rest of the PL. Bucknell, Lehigh and Lafayette were "middle three" schools that were basically D-II in outlook back then. Colgate had football at the major level, but not much else. Holy Cross was a balanced (though small) athletics program that survived the cuts of the 1950s and was considered "major" enough to be listed amongst the Army and Navy's in football and the proto-Big East teams in hoops.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Back to the original point about the Ivy League, attendance and marketing of the Ivy brand. I knew that the Ivy was having a lacrosse tournament for the first time this year, but I didn't know until now that the Ivy League is acively trying to sell a sponsorship (http://laxfunews.com/2009/12/17/ivy-league-seeks-sponsor-for-lacrosse-tournament/) for its tourney.

Up until this year, the regular-season winner won the AQ to the 16-team NCAA lacrosse championships, but now the AQ will go to the winner of a 4-team commercially sponsored, and hopefully televised, league tournament. I believe this is a marketing first for the Ivy League.

Other major lacrosse-playing conferences (ACC, CAA, Patriot League) already have sponsorships and national TV packages for their lacrosse tournaments.

[MplsBison]

Back to the original point about the Ivy League, attendance and marketing of the Ivy brand. I knew that the Ivy was having a lacrosse tournament for the first time this year, but I didn't know until now that the Ivy League is acively trying to sell a sponsorship (http://laxfunews.com/2009/12/17/ivy-league-seeks-sponsor-for-lacrosse-tournament/) for its tourney.

Up until this year, the regular-season winner won the AQ to the 16-team NCAA lacrosse championships, but now the AQ will go to the winner of a 4-team commercially sponsored, and hopefully televised, league tournament. I believe this is a marketing first for the Ivy League.

Other major lacrosse-playing conferences (ACC, CAA, Patriot League) already have sponsorships and national TV packages for their lacrosse tournaments.

People watch lacrosse on TV in the east? Wow.

There has never been and never will be a viable spectator team sport for the NCAA spring season.

The season is too short.


If they extended it into August to give the northern baseball teams a chance, then maybe.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There has never been and never will be a viable spectator team sport for the NCAA spring season.

Um, try baseball? It's dying in the Northeast but thriving everywhere else, especially on the West Coast.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

People watch lacrosse on TV in the east? Wow.

There has never been and never will be a viable spectator team sport for the NCAA spring season.

The season is too short.


If they extended it into August to give the northern baseball teams a chance, then maybe.


Um, try baseball? It's dying in the Northeast but thriving everywhere else, especially on the West Coast.

And how about the 50K that will watch the NCAA Lacrosse Championships in person on Memorial Day weekend?

There must be people all over the country who watch lacrosse on TV because I've noticed multiple games broadcast already this season on a couple of cable networks.

[Franks Tanks]

And how about the 50K that will watch the NCAA Lacrosse Championships in person on Memorial Day weekend?

There must be people all over the country who watch lacrosse on TV because I've noticed multiple games broadcast already this season on a couple of cable networks.

ESPNU has televised many Lacrosse games this spring. I guarantee they get better ratings than womans freakin basketball on the U

[DFW HOYA]

Quick recap: outside of the Ivy and Yankee, almost all Division I schools were basketball independents in the East and competed for 2-4 at-large NCAA bids until 1975.

From 1975-79, the ECAC hosted a series of regional tournaments to award autobids, roughly as the ECAC North Atlantic, ECAC Upstate, ECAC Metro, and ECAC South. (For example, the 1975 ECAC South tournament was Georgetown, West Virginia, Villanova, and George Washington.)

Eight schools left the ECAC in 1976 and formed the ECBL or Eastern 8, or what is today the A-10.

In 1978, the ECAC was moving to consolidate the independents into de-factor conferences for round robin scheduling. That would mean, for instance, that Syracuse would be forced into home and home games with the other Upstate schools (Colgate, Canisius, Siena, Buffalo, Army, Bona) and regionalize its schedule, while Georgetown would give up games with St. John's and BC to be in a group with VCU, Richmond, Old Dominion, Navy, etc. Four schools (Providence, Syracuse, Georgetown, St. John's) began meetings in 1978 on a new conference around major media markets and invited four schools to join them: UConn, Holy Cross, BC, and Rutgers. HC and Rutgers turned them down, Seton Hall was added in Rutgers' place, and an invite to Villanova for the Philadelphia market followed a year later.

Formal ECAC conference play began between 1980-82. What was the ECAC North Atlantic later morphed into today's America East, the roots of the ECAC Metro became the NEC, and the ECAC South is the parent of today's CAA.

[MplsBison]

Quick recap: outside of the Ivy and Yankee, almost all Division I schools were basketball independents in the East and competed for 2-4 at-large NCAA bids until 1975.

From 1975-79, the ECAC hosted a series of regional tournaments to award autobids, roughly as the ECAC North Atlantic, ECAC Upstate, ECAC Metro, and ECAC South. (For example, the 1975 ECAC South tournament was Georgetown, West Virginia, Villanova, and George Washington.)

Eight schools left the ECAC in 1976 and formed the ECBL or Eastern 8, or what is today the A-10.

In 1978, the ECAC was moving to consolidate the independents into de-factor conferences for round robin scheduling. That would mean, for instance, that Syracuse would be forced into home and home games with the other Upstate schools (Colgate, Canisius, Siena, Buffalo, Army, Bona) and regionalize its schedule, while Georgetown would give up games with St. John's and BC to be in a group with VCU, Richmond, Old Dominion, Navy, etc. Four schools (Providence, Syracuse, Georgetown, St. John's) began meetings in 1978 on a new conference around major media markets and invited four schools to join them: UConn, Holy Cross, BC, and Rutgers. HC and Rutgers turned them down, Seton Hall was added in Rutgers' place, and an invite to Villanova for the Philadelphia market followed a year later.

Formal ECAC conference play began between 1980-82. What was the ECAC North Atlantic later morphed into today's America East, the roots of the ECAC Metro became the NEC, and the ECAC South is the parent of today's CAA.

Interesting history.


I find it equally interesting that most of the founding members of the Big East now find themselves without a seat at the table in regards to the realignment/expansion talks. GU, for example, just has to sit back and watch.

[Bogus Megapardus]

There has never been and never will be a viable spectator team sport for the NCAA spring season.


May 25, 2009. Syracuse v. Cornell NCAA finals pregame.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/NCAALaxChampionship.JPG/400px-NCAALaxChampionship.JPG



With that kind of crowd for an Ivy game, I can see why the IL is going to host a tournament and sell a sponsorship package. I guess they're giving in, finally.







* * * * * * * *

[LBPop]

People watch lacrosse on TV in the east? Wow.

There has never been and never will be a viable spectator team sport for the NCAA spring season.



I did not become a lacrosse fan until I went to Maryland. Then I came to love the sport. In the past couple of years I have observed a phenomenon with televised lacrosse that is similar to hockey. HD television really improves the TV experience. The shape of the screen and the improved ability to see that small ball moving as fast as it does, really make it a much better TV sport. I wonder if anyone else agrees and I also wonder if this might improve ratings in the years to come.

[CFBfan]

May 25, 2009. Syracuse v. Cornell NCAA finals pregame.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/NCAALaxChampionship.JPG/400px-NCAALaxChampionship.JPG







* * * * * * * *
just an aside: Max Diebold (not sure I spelled his last name correctly) All American Captain for Cornell that year spoke at my sons HS last night at their lax kickoff dinner. While my sons 1st passion is football lax is really growing (I'm in the "tri state") and most if not all the great colleges in the east have very good programs and could even possible compete with football for some kids.....look at GU for example, an nationaly ranked lax program with schollies as opposed to, well we all know about the football program!

[ngineer]

just an aside: Max Diebold (not sure I spelled his last name correctly) All American Captain for Cornell that year spoke at my sons HS last night at their lax kickoff dinner. While my sons 1st passion is football lax is really growing (I'm in the "tri state") and most if not all the great colleges in the east have very good programs and could even possible compete with football for some kids.....look at GU for example, an nationaly ranked lax program with schollies as opposed to, well we all know about the football program!

Just a matter of commitment...of course, football costs the most with roughly 100 players, and all the equipment and staff that go with them. A lacrosse squad has, what, 30-40 players? But it does show that with the necessary assets Georgetown could be a 'sleeping giant' that Pete Lembo called them about 8 years ago.

[Go...gate]

Indeed - but, importantly, had HC accepted the invite, there would be no Patriot League since they were there for its creation. After that, for all I know Lehigh and Lafayette would have joined the Yankee Conference, Bucknell would be in the NEC and Colgate would still be angling to be the "ninth Ivy".

But to your broader point - absolutely, HC had a different background than the rest of the PL. Rutgers, Lehigh and Lafayette were the "Middle Three" schools that were basically D-II in outlook back then. Colgate had football at the major level, but not much else. Holy Cross was a balanced (though small) athletics program that survived the cuts of the 1950s and was considered "major" enough to be listed amongst the Army and Navy's in football and the proto-Big East teams in hoops.

Fixed it for you.

[LBPop]

Georgetown could be a 'sleeping giant' that Pete Lembo called them about 8 years ago.

I remember reading that quote. Perhaps he should have said "comatose" rather than "sleeping". ;)xrolleyesxxsmhxxbawlingx

[DFW HOYA]

I remember reading that quote. Perhaps he should have said "comatose" rather than "sleeping". ;)xrolleyesxxsmhxxbawlingx

In football, poverty is a natural anesthetic.

[MplsBison]

In football, poverty is a natural anesthetic.

Yeah you have to feel for poor Georgetown. What, with that piddly $1 billion endowment and $29 million athletic budget.

xcoffeex

[Bogus Megapardus]

Yeah you have to feel for poor Georgetown. What, with that piddly $1 billion endowment and $29 million athletic budget.


Watch the Georgetown vs. Navy lacrosse match live tonight at 7:00 PM on CBS College Sports to see another example of how Georgetown uses its athletic budget.

[DFW HOYA]

Yeah you have to feel for poor Georgetown. What, with that piddly $1 billion endowment and $29 million athletic budget.


Yes, it's small (piddly, in your words). Because how much of that endowment is available for athletic aid? $7.3 million, or just 0.73% of the total.

Reads GUHoyas.com: "Endowed Scholarship Income provides about $368,000 in 2009-2010, approximately 2% of the Athletic Scholarship Aid provided by Georgetown University." And only a handful of students receive endowed aid--if you were to actually spread it out among every varsity athlete, that's approximately $514, or about 1% of the cost of attending college for a year.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Reads GUHoyas.com: "Endowed Scholarship Income provides about $368,000 in 2009-2010, approximately 2% of the [atheltic-related aid] provided by Georgetown University."

To put this in perspective: that's just about enough endowed income to cover half... of the men's basketball team. With numbers like that, it's not hard to see why it's so tough to get $$ for football scholarships at G'Town.

This means that G'Town is paying a lot to institutionally support every single one of its programs. Including basketball.

[DFW HOYA]

Post-script: How many endowed scholarships does Georgetown have for men's basketball?

One.

[RichH2]

Allocation of funds? People and institutions tend to be willing to pay for what they want. GU clearly does not care to spend on football. Lehigh has a billion $ endowment and just raised 508 mil on latest fund drive, of which ,if I recall correctly, some $73 mil will benefit athletics. School is willing to spend for programs. I've read most of DFW's explanation of why GU is in the fix it is. Why cant it change is the real Q. No money or no interest?

[DFW HOYA]

Allocation of funds? People and institutions tend to be willing to pay for what they want. GU clearly does not care to spend on football. Lehigh has a billion $ endowment and just raised 508 mil on latest fund drive, of which ,if I recall correctly, some $73 mil will benefit athletics. School is willing to spend for programs. I've read most of DFW's explanation of why GU is in the fix it is. Why cant it change is the real Q. No money or no interest?

Neither--the short answer is that endowment funds at GU are not fungible and there are fiduciary obligations in almost all major gifts, e.g., a $1 million gift to the medical school can't be used for the business school, etc. Put another way, 99% of the endowment is locked up in areas other than athletics.

The only way for athletics to raise money is for the athletic director to be leading the charge for athletics-specific gifts. However, the permanent AD position has been vacant for 11 months. It's not an easy search.

http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2010/03/help-wanted.html

[DetroitFlyer]

Neither--the short answer is that endowment funds at GU are not fungible and there are fiduciary obligations in almost all major gifts, e.g., a $1 million gift to the medical school can't be used for the business school, etc. Put another way, 99% of the endowment is locked up in areas other than athletics.

The only way for athletics to raise money is for the athletic director to be leading the charge for athletics-specific gifts. However, the permanent AD position has been vacant for 11 months. It's not an easy search.

http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2010/03/help-wanted.html

It certainly seems like especially for private schools, an endowment specifically for athletics should be created. It seems, however, that many schools think that an athletic specific endowment would only suck money away from other fund raising activities. Maybe that is true, but I know that when I donate to Dayton, I typically give equal amounts to football and academic departments. If I remember right, Stanford has an athletic endowment that is larger than mosts schools total endowments....

[RichH2]

Cant speak to any other school but LU very aggressive with fund raising. Heck, I worry when I dont get at least a couple a month but LU also has aggressive sports endowment and athletic partnerships efforts . Does GU have anything comparable?

[Go...gate]

Cant speak to any other school but LU very aggressive with fund raising. Heck, I worry when I dont get at least a couple a month but LU also has aggressive sports endowment and athletic partnerships efforts . Does GU have anything comparable?

Colgate's fundraising also very aggressive.

[colorless raider]

I hope you are a large donor to Maroon Council as it supports football which is about our lnly winning program and light years ahead of the others.

[Go...gate]

I hope you are a large donor to Maroon Council as it supports football which is about our lnly winning program and light years ahead of the others.

I am.

[MplsBison]

It certainly seems like especially for private schools, an endowment specifically for athletics should be created. It seems, however, that many schools think that an athletic specific endowment would only suck money away from other fund raising activities. Maybe that is true, but I know that when I donate to Dayton, I typically give equal amounts to football and academic departments. If I remember right, Stanford has an athletic endowment that is larger than mosts schools total endowments....

Selling an endowment just for athletics to a president of an academic institution would probably be about like selling the governor on putting flat screen TVs in every prison cell.

[DFW HOYA]

Selling an endowment just for athletics to a president of an academic institution would probably be about like selling the governor on putting flat screen TVs in every prison cell.

Actually, if it adds to the overall endowment (and in almost all cases would be counted in the overall university totals), most presidents would be for it, because it would lessen the need for institutional subsidies to prop up non-revenue sports.

Stanford's athletics-based endowment gifts are approximately $450 million. The interest on that amount alone (~$22.5 million) would be larger than the athletic budgets of all but eight I-AA schools (Delaware, James Madison, Georgetown, Penn, Villanova, Old Dominion, UNH, and UMass).

[RichH2]

DFW very interesting info. I wonder if there is any way to determine in PL athletic as opposed to general or other specified endowments?