Another scholarship domino? [Archive]

DFW HOYA

March 17th, 2010, 11:39 AM

A 'given' that Fordham, Colgate and Lehigh have already been on board. With the Bison joining the herd, Lafayette cannot be left hanging...which leaves the Hoyas to ***** or get off the pot.

Whether the vote is 4-3, 5-2 or 6-1, Georgetown does not have the money to invest in full scholarship football right now. Could you have a scenario with six full ride schools and one with none? Possibly. The university probably has $100 million in unfunded athletic construction projects to deal with and a number of other issues to fight through, including finding an athletic director (vacant since 4/09) and addressing the growing strain of financial aid on the school's budget. The PL leadership knows this and is not going to put pressure on Georgetown to go elsewhere and risk dropping to six schools as a result.

danefan

March 17th, 2010, 11:47 AM

Could you have a scenario with six full ride schools and one with none?

How is that any different than the status quo in the PL now?

Bogus Megapardus

March 17th, 2010, 11:53 AM

Have you guys had the new Domino's pizza? It's freakin' awesome compared to the old crap they used to put out!

Oh gosh... sorry guys. I just saw "domino" and got hungry. Carry on....

Careful - this is a Pizza Hut crowd now. Don't want to alienate the sponsors.

AppAlum2003

March 17th, 2010, 12:07 PM

Careful - this is a Pizza Hut crowd now. Don't want to alienate the sponsors.

I've always been considered an "Equal Opportunity Eater"... Pizza Hut's bread-sticks are pretty awesome, too.

MplsBison

March 17th, 2010, 12:48 PM

Whether the vote is 4-3, 5-2 or 6-1, Georgetown does not have the money to invest in full scholarship football right now. Could you have a scenario with six full ride schools and one with none? Possibly. The university probably has $100 million in unfunded athletic construction projects to deal with and a number of other issues to fight through, including finding an athletic director (vacant since 4/09) and addressing the growing strain of financial aid on the school's budget. The PL leadership knows this and is not going to put pressure on Georgetown to go elsewhere and risk dropping to six schools as a result.

"Full scholarship football", lol. I bet the PL ends up with a 40 max or something like what the NEC has.

DetroitFlyer

March 17th, 2010, 01:07 PM

Whether the vote is 4-3, 5-2 or 6-1, Georgetown does not have the money to invest in full scholarship football right now. Could you have a scenario with six full ride schools and one with none? Possibly. The university probably has $100 million in unfunded athletic construction projects to deal with and a number of other issues to fight through, including finding an athletic director (vacant since 4/09) and addressing the growing strain of financial aid on the school's budget. The PL leadership knows this and is not going to put pressure on Georgetown to go elsewhere and risk dropping to six schools as a result.

Hello PFL! I wonder if when the PFL obtains an automatic bid to the playoffs, if Georgetown would more interested in joining the conference? It is time for Georgetown to put the MAAC experience behind them and evaluate PFL membership more objectively.

DFW HOYA

March 17th, 2010, 01:15 PM

Hello PFL! I wonder if when the PFL obtains an automatic bid to the playoffs, if Georgetown would more interested in joining the conference?

No.

ngineer

March 17th, 2010, 01:15 PM

If the league goes scholly, it will likely be gradually...maybe 10-20 to start, working up to 40 or so in combination with need based grants.

MplsBison

March 17th, 2010, 01:30 PM

If the league goes scholly, it will likely be gradually...maybe 10-20 to start, working up to 40 or so in combination with need based grants.

I hope the NCAA does not allow schools to mix and match.

It should either be 100% need based or 100% scholarship.

But I doubt such a rule exists.

Bogus Megapardus

March 17th, 2010, 01:34 PM

If the league goes scholly, it will likely be gradually...maybe 10-20 to start, working up to 40 or so in combination with need based grants.

ngineer, it's either full scholarship so we can be allowed to play our traditional FBS rivals, or it's going to stay "non-scholarship." An in-between approach gets us nowhere.

By "non-scholarship," of course, I mean we'll do it the Ivy way and adopt "Ivy Accounting Principles." That means that all schools will report "zero athletic aid given" and then each will be allowed to do whatsoever it pleases. Might one endow an entire football team, by the way, and still call it "non-scholarship"?

DFW HOYA

March 17th, 2010, 01:38 PM

I hope the NCAA does not allow schools to mix and match.

It should either be 100% need based or 100% scholarship.
But I doubt such a rule exists.

Most conferences have a wide latitude of offering scholarships by sport, which is why the NCAA sets a maximum scholarship limit, not a minimum one. Very few schools can afford full scholarships in all sports.

Lehigh Football Nation

March 17th, 2010, 01:39 PM

ngineer, it's either full scholarship so we can be allowed to play our traditional FBS rivals, or it's going to stay "non-scholarship." An in-between approach gets us nowhere.

By "non-scholarship," of course, I mean we'll do it the Ivy way and adopt "Ivy Accounting Principles." That means that all schools will report "zero athletic aid given" and then each will be allowed to do whatsoever it pleases. Might one endow an entire football team, by the way, and still call it "non-scholarship"?

H-Y-P are three of the only schools that could do it, but they could.

Jackman

March 17th, 2010, 02:52 PM

Most conferences have a wide latitude of offering scholarships by sport, which is why the NCAA sets a maximum scholarship limit, not a minimum one. Very few schools can afford full scholarships in all sports.

FBS Football has a minimum scholarship limit (76.5 average over a two year period). No other NCAA sport does though.

That said, Fordham will need a minimum of 56.7 scholarships to satisfy their obligations to the FBS opponents they've scheduled, otherwise those games won't count for bowl eligibility for the FBS teams. The PL may adopt a gradual approach to scholarship limits, but I'd expect that Fordham would still be given leeway to go over the limit, they'll just continue not to be eligible for the PL autobid.

That is, of course, if the PL ends up doing anything at all.

Bogus Megapardus

March 17th, 2010, 03:02 PM

I'd expect that Fordham would still be given leeway to go over the limit, they'll just continue not to be eligible for the PL autobid.

I thought Fordham was supposed to be forming a brand-new Eastern all-scholarship conference that it could dominate for years to come, so it could bid sayonara to the PL (in a most polite and tasteful fashion, of course). Hasn't that happened yet?

danefan

March 17th, 2010, 03:08 PM

FBS Football has a minimum scholarship limit (76.5 average over a two year period). No other NCAA sport does though.

That said, Fordham will need a minimum of 56.7 scholarships to satisfy their obligations to the FBS opponents they've scheduled, otherwise those games won't count for bowl eligibility for the FBS teams. The PL may adopt a gradual approach to scholarship limits, but I'd expect that Fordham would still be given leeway to go over the limit, they'll just continue not to be eligible for the PL autobid.

That is, of course, if the PL ends up doing anything at all.

But some conferences have minimums. The Big East has minimums for every sport I believe. Its a % of the maximum allowed.

MplsBison

March 17th, 2010, 05:27 PM

ngineer, it's either full scholarship so we can be allowed to play our traditional FBS rivals, or it's going to stay "non-scholarship." An in-between approach gets us nowhere.

By "non-scholarship," of course, I mean we'll do it the Ivy way and adopt "Ivy Accounting Principles." That means that all schools will report "zero athletic aid given" and then each will be allowed to do whatsoever it pleases. Might one endow an entire football team, by the way, and still call it "non-scholarship"?

The NCAA is not fooled.

The only way an entire football team can be given full aid and still report zero scholarships is if every player earns a full ride from aid that is available to all students at the school. In other words, no aid that is available only to athletes.

MplsBison

March 17th, 2010, 05:28 PM

Most conferences have a wide latitude of offering scholarships by sport, which is why the NCAA sets a maximum scholarship limit, not a minimum one. Very few schools can afford full scholarships in all sports.

No, I mean I don't think a football program should be able to offer 40 players full scholarships and then arrange for 45 players to get part of their expenses covered by need-based grants available only to football players.

It should have to be all scholarship or nothing.

But like I said, I doubt there is such a rule. This is just me railing against the idea of "need-based" aid.

danefan

March 17th, 2010, 05:51 PM

No, I mean I don't think a football program should be able to offer 40 players full scholarships and then arrange for 45 players to get part of their expenses covered by need-based grants available only to football players.

It should have to be all scholarship or nothing.

But like I said, I doubt there is such a rule. This is just me railing against the idea of "need-based" aid.

Traditional scholarships and the grants offered by Patriot League schools are both "equivalencies" counted by the NCAA against the 63 max allowed in FCS.

They apparently aren't treated the same for Title IX purposes though (which is a crock of you know what).

MplsBison

March 17th, 2010, 06:26 PM

Traditional scholarships and the grants offered by Patriot League schools are both "equivalencies" counted by the NCAA against the 63 max allowed in FCS.

They apparently aren't treated the same for Title IX purposes though (which is a crock of you know what).

The NCAA only cares if the dollars being reported by the athletic department are available to all students or just to athletes.

If student-athlete X's cost to attend the school is $20,000 for that year and the athletic department reports that X is getting $10,000 of aid that is only available to athletes and another $10,000 of aid that is available to all students, then that counts as 0.5 of an equivalency.

How the school and athletic department arrived at those figures of aid to award X is their business.

I don't see where that money would not count against title IX, if it is only available to athletes.

RichH2

March 17th, 2010, 06:33 PM

danefan

March 17th, 2010, 06:34 PM

The NCAA only cares if the dollars being reported by the athletic department are available to all students or just to athletes.

If student-athlete X's cost to attend the school is $20,000 for that year and the athletic department reports that X is getting $10,000 of aid that is only available to athletes and another $10,000 of aid that is available to all students, then that counts as 0.5 of an equivalency.

How the school and athletic department arrived at those figures of aid to award X is their business.

I don't see where that money would not count against title IX, if it is only available to athletes.

The grants currently offered by the PL are treated by the NCAA as counting against their 63 equivalency maximum.

These grants are treated as "gender neutral" by most PL schools and are thus not included in their Title IX gender equality calculations used to satisfy one of the 3 Title IX tests. They do this based on the premise that the formula used to determine eligiblity for these grants is a gender neutral formula (I personally think this is BS, but that's the way they do it).
Fordham treats them as male expenditures only and counters them with female expenditures.

The decision to award athletics aid to football players at Fordham had little to do with economics. Unlike most institutions in the Patriot League, Fordham counted need-based aid given to football players toward its gender-equity limits under Title IX. The school already offered a comparable number of athletics scholarships to women as to men.

At most Patriot League schools, however, the need-based aid awarded to football players is not counted toward gender-equity limits. Therefore, if other institutions in the conference were to move toward awarding athletics aid in football, they also would need to award a comparable amount of athletics aid to female student-athletes to meet generally accepted Title IX requirements. For example, if a school were to offer 60 scholarships in football, it would need to offer 60 scholarships to female student-athletes as well.

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaahome?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/ncaa/ncaa/ncaa+news/ncaa+news+online/2009/division+i/patriot+league+discusses+football+scholarships_07_ 21_09_ncaa_news

Go...gate

March 17th, 2010, 06:54 PM

Careful - this is a Pizza Hut crowd now. Don't want to alienate the sponsors.

Screw the Pizza Hut. Give me a Conte's sausage, pepperoni and mushroom!

Go...gate

March 17th, 2010, 06:57 PM

I think Georgetown is a great school, but if we have six other programs that are on board for scholarships and they are not going along, they have to go. At that point, they will have affirmed their unwillingness to commit to their program. If the Pioneer wants them, so be it.

Bogus Megapardus

March 17th, 2010, 07:21 PM

Screw the Pizza Hut. Give me a Conte's sausage, pepperoni and mushroom!

Ahh . . . but how will that attitude play in Fresno, Texas should the good folks over in Olin Hall succeed in incubating another Jamaal Branch?

Go...gate

March 18th, 2010, 10:36 AM

Ahh . . . but how will that attitude play in Fresno, Texas should the good folks over in Olin Hall succeed in incubating another Jamaal Branch?

Ciro Baldino is ready to open a second location. xlolx

I'f we're gonna clone Jamaal, let's clone Doug Curtis, Mark Murphy and Kelly Robinson too. We need some good players on defense as well.

Bogus Megapardus

March 18th, 2010, 11:31 AM

Ciro Baldino is ready to open a second location.

I was at Witherspoon last night. St. Paddy's Day, though still having Pi Day celebration. I'll bet Fresno could use some Old Nassau cuisine. But if Fresno had a Conte's of their own, would they even "get it?" I mean, to give up that delicious Pizza Hut . . . .

RichH2

March 18th, 2010, 11:42 AM

Bogus,

All the talk about Pizza, I had to head out last night for a pie. Went to the City for the best. Have yet to meet a pizza out of NYC that could compare certainly not Pizza Hut.

The Holy Grail of football scholarships. A dream much like seeing Heidi Klum sitting on the hood of your car waiting just for you. Neither are likely to happen. I hopeI am wrong at least about scholarships

Lehigh Football Nation

March 18th, 2010, 11:46 AM

Have you guys had the new Domino's pizza? It's freakin' awesome compared to the old crap they used to put out!

Oh gosh... sorry guys. I just saw "domino" and got hungry. Carry on....

xnonox

http://media.www.thebrownandwhite.com/media/storage/paper1233/news/2010/03/19/Opinion/Editorial.The.Madness.Of.March-3891661.shtml

Lehigh is in the Big Dance. Our team will garner recognition from this appearance and could attract more talented recruits. Senior forward Zahir Carrington was featured on SportsCenter's top 10 plays. And Pizza Hut has offered the university 10,000 free slices of pizza if the team upsets Kansas. Sure it's a long shot, but just making it to this point has been huge for us.

:D xlolx

Bogus Megapardus

March 18th, 2010, 12:14 PM

All the talk about Pizza, I had to head out last night for a pie. Went to the City for the best. Have yet to meet a pizza out of NYC that could compare certainly not Pizza Hut.

Newark/Jersey City/Hoboken - within the Tony Soprano zone - matches or beats much NYC fare for that style of pizza IMHO. Conte's is different. It's a real Trenton "Tomato Pie" in the De Lorenzo's (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/) style. So it's like comparing . . . umm . . . sausages and mushrooms.

And they don't serve Dr. Pepper, either.

danefan

March 18th, 2010, 12:21 PM

Newark/Jersey City/Hoboken - within the Tony Soprano zone - matches or beats much NYC fare for that style of pizza IMHO. Conte's is different. It's a real Trenton "Tomato Pie" in the De Lorenzo's (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/) style. So it's like comparing . . . umm . . . sausages and mushrooms.

And they don't serve Dr. Pepper, either.

I love pizza and have tried the local pizza just about everywhere I go. I have never, ever, tasted a pizza in the US as good as the tomato pie at Palermo's on Rte. 206 in Bordentown NJ.

I can make it in an hour from Bergen County and its worth every bit of the traffic on the turnpike to get it.

Bogus Megapardus

March 18th, 2010, 12:24 PM

Pizza Hut has offered the university 10,000 free slices of pizza if the team upsets Kansas.

. . . and Pizza Hut slices each tiny, cardboardy pie into about a thousand "slices," so that's only ten pies. Chump change, LFN. The Pigeons ought to skip the tourney and eat a nice Conte's Tomato Pie instead. I can assure you the result will be more satisfying. What say you, 'gate?

DFW HOYA

March 18th, 2010, 12:32 PM

And they don't serve Dr. Pepper, either.

Their loss. xlolx

In other PL news, Georgetown will travel to Sacred Heart to fill the game cancelled by Richmond, which marks six road games scheduled by Kevin Kelly's staff in the first eight weeks for a GU team which is now 1-26 outside the District since the opening game of the 2005 season. Either GU can't get anyone to play in the MSF anymore, or, more likely, it has to take whatever it can get.

Sill no replacement for the home game cancelled by ODU on Oct. 30, which I'd guess won't be filled. It's not like the PL office will demand GU fill a game for what could be a 0-8 team by week nine, anyway.

MplsBison

March 18th, 2010, 12:32 PM

Whether "equivalencies" count for Title IX depends on school accounting. LC has some severe issues here with going schollie because they budgeted $$ but did not spend. With equal merit aid must spend the $$. Other schools counted funds spent ,less of a IX problem.

We are all premature as there is no definitive indication of what if anything the PL will do. Logically as merit aid is permitted in every other sport some schedule of merit aid s/b allowed in football. AH but when has logic ruled the decisions of academics. Besides IL pressure there is a real issue with economics. LU seems to have weathered the downturn wellbut not everyone has. Few schools have billion $$ endownments in PL.

So you're telling me that LU 'gets by' on title IX by saying that they've 'budgeted' equal money for femals, regardless if they actually get around to spending those dollars?

Or do you mean like what dane said, that they consider the funding formal to be gender-neutral and thus irrelevant to title IX?

In either case, if going scholarships does not force them to change, then I really hope they are challenged in court. They would lose and lose badly.

Bogus Megapardus

March 18th, 2010, 12:50 PM

Sill no replacement for the home game canceled by ODU on Oct. 30, which I'd guess won't be filled.

DFW, are you convinced anyone withing the (interim) AD's office is even trying? Have they gone outside the northeast and looked at Western teams/southern HBCU/Indies? And why does SH get Georgetown at home yet they travel to Hanover for Big Green when SH is playing both for the first time? I hope the SH game is home-and-home, at least.

DFW HOYA

March 18th, 2010, 02:02 PM

DFW, are you convinced anyone withing the (interim) AD's office is even trying? Have they gone outside the northeast and looked at Western teams/southern HBCU/Indies?

Can't confirm this one, but somewhere, MplsBison has just spit up his coffee...

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?t=68841

danefan

March 18th, 2010, 02:03 PM

Their loss. xlolx

In other PL news, Georgetown will travel to Sacred Heart to fill the game cancelled by Richmond, which marks six road games scheduled by Kevin Kelly's staff in the first eight weeks for a GU team which is now 1-26 outside the District since the opening game of the 2005 season. Either GU can't get anyone to play in the MSF anymore, or, more likely, it has to take whatever it can get.

Sill no replacement for the home game cancelled by ODU on Oct. 30, which I'd guess won't be filled. It's not like the PL office will demand GU fill a game for what could be a 0-8 team by week nine, anyway.

Here's your replacement for the ODU game - another away game. This time at NDSU.
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?t=68841

Bogus Megapardus

March 18th, 2010, 02:55 PM

Can't confirm this one, but somewhere, MplsBison has just spit up his coffee...

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?t=68841

Now that's what a call a PL away game! Talk about drifting outside the comfort zone. Don't quote me on this, but I think North Dakota might even be farther west than Lewisburg.

Perhaps the Pards will man up and swap home games with you this year to give you an early one at Multi-Sport Playground. It's worth a call.

CFBfan

March 19th, 2010, 07:25 AM

Now that's what a call a PL away game! Talk about drifting outside the comfort zone. Don't quote me on this, but I think North Dakota might even be farther west than Lewisburg.

Perhaps the Pards will man up and swap home games with you this year to give you an early one at Multi-Sport Playground. It's worth a call.

In this absurd carnival at Georgetown called a football program the ONLY positive thing to sat is thank God those young men are getting a wonderful education.

aceinthehole

March 19th, 2010, 08:21 AM

Let's get this done!!!

Have Wagner drop its D-II road game and sign a home/home deal with G-Town,
starting in DC this year and playing on Staten Island in 2011!!!!!!

CFBfan

March 19th, 2010, 08:29 AM

Let's get this done!!!

Have Wagner drop its D-II road game and sign a home/home deal with G-Town,
starting in DC this year and playing on Staten Island in 2011!!!!!!

that would make a lot more sense for GU then North Dakota and that is where you find the problem with your scenario.....it makes sense and GU Football doesn't seem to do things that make sense!

CFBfan

March 19th, 2010, 08:38 AM

DFW, are you convinced anyone withing the (interim) AD's office is even trying? Have they gone outside the northeast and looked at Western teams/southern HBCU/Indies? And why does SH get Georgetown at home yet they travel to Hanover for Big Green when SH is playing both for the first time? I hope the SH game is home-and-home, at least.

As a parent who has met every coach on their staff I can only say that the staff my son played for in High School was more competent than the GU Staff.....from X's and O's to running the program to how the players were treated. Most players there choose GU over other schools with much better programs and a good number also had at least as good academic options but for various reason, some of them very good ones choose GU and it is incredibly sad that they are now stuck with amateurs running the show there. (and my son plays so this is not sour grapes)

Bogus Megapardus

March 19th, 2010, 09:07 AM

As a parent who has met every coach on their staff I can only say that the staff my son played for in High School was more competent than the GU Staff.....from X's and O's to running the program to how the players were treated. Most players there choose GU over other schools with much better programs and a good number also had at least as good academic options but for various reason, some of them very good ones choose GU and it is incredibly sad that they are now stuck with amateurs running the show there. (and my son plays so this is not sour grapes)

Your son made an excellent choice to attend Georgetown and to play in the Patriot League. Georgetown spends it athletic capital on meeting Big East scholarship and travel requirements in all sports for the sake of its successful basketball program. That leaves too little to sustain competitiveness in PL football, unfortunately. Others seem to suggest that the "will" is there, just not the money. If, indeed, the "will" is absent as well, then Georgetown has a decision to make, I would think.

DFW HOYA

March 19th, 2010, 09:20 AM

Your son made an excellent choice to attend Georgetown and to play in the Patriot League. Georgetown spends it athletic capital on meeting Big East scholarship and travel requirements in all sports for the sake of its successful basketball program. That leaves too little to sustain competitiveness in PL football, unfortunately.

That's a spotty argument. Of course it spends more money on Big East programs, it is a Big East program. Notwithstanding, football ranks 3rd of 29 sports in funding, but as CFBfan and others will tell you, competitiveness is more than just about funding.

CFBfan

March 19th, 2010, 09:20 AM

Your son made an excellent choice to attend Georgetown and to play in the Patriot League. Georgetown spends it athletic capital on meeting Big East scholarship and travel requirements in all sports for the sake of its successful basketball program. That leaves too little to sustain competitiveness in PL football, unfortunately. Others seem to suggest that the "will" is there, just not the money. If, indeed, the "will" is absent as well, then Georgetown has a decision to make, I would think.

and after observing "up close" I question the will....

Bogus Megapardus

March 19th, 2010, 09:29 AM

and after observing "up close" I question the will....

But that can change. Lafayette College went through a near-catastrophic test of its will a decade ago but manage to retain - and dramatically improve - its program. Who knows what will happen?

CFBfan

March 19th, 2010, 10:03 AM

But that can change. Lafayette College went through a near-catastrophic test of its will a decade ago but manage to retain - and dramatically improve - its program. Who knows what will happen?

NOT with the current coaching staff

CFBfan

March 19th, 2010, 10:15 AM

Bogus Megapardus

March 19th, 2010, 10:21 AM

NOT with the current coaching staff

Lafayette's Frank Tavani was there throughout its "disaster" period. Most agree that he is a tremendous football coach. Our problem was a horrid AD named Eve Atkinson and a President who alienated the BOT and did not understand how PL-style athletics benefited the college. Georgetown's problem might include the coaching staff, but it probably goes much deeper. Georgetown's administration, fans and supporters will never acknowledge that, despite its brand image in basketball, it's really a PL school through and through. Yes, Hoyas, we can fix it for you, but you'll have to get with the program first . . . . xrolleyesx

DFW HOYA

March 19th, 2010, 10:57 AM

Georgetown's problem might include the coaching staff, but it probably goes much deeper. Georgetown's administration, fans and supporters will never acknowledge that, despite its brand image in basketball, it's really a PL school through and through. Yes, Hoyas, we can fix it for you, but you'll have to get with the program first . . . . xrolleyesx

Georgetown shares very little in common with PL schools. Maybe that's part of the problem, too.

MplsBison

March 19th, 2010, 11:02 AM

That's a spotty argument. Of course it spends more money on Big East programs, it is a Big East program. Notwithstanding, football ranks 3rd of 29 sports in funding, but as CFBfan and others will tell you, competitiveness is more than just about funding.

In other words, you have to spend the same amount as the top teams in the FCS to buy a real coaching staff and have a decent recruiting budget so they can go out and get the kids they need, if you want to be competitive.

If you just want to have a football team, then continue to underfund the program as you're doing now.

Bogus Megapardus

March 19th, 2010, 11:05 AM

Georgetown shares very little in common with PL schools. Maybe that's part of the problem, too.

How did I know you were going to say that? :) I hear that Ivy League invite is happening any day now, though. Any . . . day . . . now . . . .

You just have so much more in common with the ancient eight. Or make that the neolithic nine, shall we?

DFW HOYA

March 19th, 2010, 11:38 AM

How did I know you were going to say that? :) I hear that Ivy League invite is happening any day now, though. Any . . . day . . . now . . . .

Well, I wasn't referring to the Ivy in specific.

The Patriot League schools are made up, primarily, of smaller, liberal arts based colleges in smaller communities or rural locations. None are major research universities, few have extensive graduate programs, and few have a consistent national presence in intercollegiate athletics; which, frankly, is how these schools want it and that's OK.

There is a reason Georgetown and Fordham are outliers in this process--they are square pegs in the process--by size, by tradition, by outlook. Georgetown's position is clouded by divergent paths--it has the 75th largest athletic budget in the nation (1st among all I-AA schools) yet spends a considerable share on only two sports. As an esteemed dean put it, we fight above our weight class, but are committed to do so.

Some in the PL continues to live in the land of Fr. Brooks and John Feinstein, eager to earn the favor of the Ivy brahmin while eminently distrustful of those who would sully the clean, patrician features of the league (to borrow an old phrase). But that's where these schools are, and that's where it will be until one side decides to part ways. Fordham seems to be heading in that direction, eventually if not sooner. A new athletic director may set Georgetown in a different direction as well.

Lehigh Football Nation

March 19th, 2010, 11:48 AM

NOT with the current coaching staff

In other words, you have to spend the same amount as the top teams in the FCS to buy a real coaching staff and have a decent recruiting budget so they can go out and get the kids they need, if you want to be competitive.

If you just want to have a football team, then continue to underfund the program as you're doing now.

Be nice to DFW. It's rough in Hoya world right now, and no, I'm not talking about football. :(

Bogus Megapardus

March 19th, 2010, 12:28 PM

major research universities

I love this phrase. I really do. Always have. It's the educational marketing major's nirvana as it rolls off the lips so cleanly, and with such authority. I guess it means that people associated with such places do more "research" than others and get bunches of things published the East Timor Journal of Comparative Studies and such (while graduate TAs do all the undergraduate instruction). Maybe it helps to have a money-sucking, welfare-draining hospital, too, like Temple and Drexel and Rutgers and NYU and "others." Now there's a business plan.

PL colleges outpace "major research universities" by a wide margin in graduation rate, earnings, employment success, matriculation rate, endowment, alumni giving and, yes, "percentage of faculty and students engaged in academic research." Still wondering, then, which of these attributes the rest of the PL colleges ought to give up for the sake of being labeled a "major research university." Let us know, will you?

Lehigh Football Nation

March 19th, 2010, 12:55 PM

Some in the PL continues to live in the land of Fr. Brooks and John Feinstein, eager to earn the favor of the Ivy brahmin while eminently distrustful of those who would sully the clean, patrician features of the league (to borrow an old phrase). But that's where these schools are, and that's where it will be until one side decides to part ways. Fordham seems to be heading in that direction, eventually if not sooner. A new athletic director may set Georgetown in a different direction as well.

Not for nothing, but Fordham is attempting expanding their athletics programs in ways I'm having a hard time comprehending. They're already near the tops in FCS in football spending alone, and are contemplating big sports infrastructure upgrades on campus and putting more money in the pot for basketball coaches and (ostensibly) scholarship money for b-ball players. Where's the Kirby's and Stabler's of Fordham putting up the money for this? It would be challenging in the best of times, but it's coming at a time of crisis in higher education as more people need more academic aid while university endowments have shrunk immensely.

It seems like Fordham is trying to have football, however, playing by the academic rules of the Patriot League. I think those PL rules (the AI) are good rules and raise the bar for academic achievement for athletes in a significant way. An AI - with the elimination of the requirement for need-based aid - will allow all the schools of the league to get more of the next generation of Brad Maurer's and Draddy award finalists on their teams. I think that's a great goal to have - and these teams can also compete for national championships, too.

So as long as Fordham wants to adhere to the AI I'm happy to have them as members. What they do with basketball, I can continue to scratch my head. But I'm not going to bust on a team that wants to have players with great academics.

Where I agree with you DFW is that some folks seem to thing the PL needs to earn the favor of the IL. I think the PL should be proud of its links to the IL but should promote its own, separate academic brand from the IL. I don't see why offering athletic aid should preclude the PL schools from playing the IL schools when that's what H-Y-P is in effect doing already with their huge endowment.

The trouble with Georgetown is that there's this perception is that they haven't made the sort of commitment to be competitive in the Patriot League. And it's not just money and not just facilities (and not just because they're in the Big East in every other sport), but all play a big part in that perception. The Patriot League once was thought of as almost-ultra-cost-containment FCS football, but that myth was been abolished when Richmond realized that competitive PL membership wasn't going to contain costs.

If the league chooses to allow teams to offer scholarships, the schools of the PL will probably see at least a majority of the teams be able to recruit players they couldn't before. Spending - and competition for high academic scholar-athletes - will increase. Does Georgetown see the goal for football to compete for championships in this arena? Or do they see ultra-cost-containment football and a cheap way to suck up to the Ivies? In so many ways G'Town's situation is tied up with the vision of the PL.

carney2

March 19th, 2010, 04:04 PM

Has anyone really been following this thread? Talk about an infinite number of monkeys at an infinite number of keyboards:

Bucknell to support football scholarships.

Well, maybe not. It's just a rumor.

Pizza!

Scholarships vs. equivalencies vs. a mix of the two as meeting the 57 limit for qualifiers.

More pizza.

Georgetown sux.

Does not.

Does so.

You people have far too much time on your hands.

Go...gate

March 19th, 2010, 04:17 PM

But the Pizza at Conte's is great!

CFBfan

March 19th, 2010, 04:38 PM

But the Pizza at Conte's is great!

and GU does suk!

LUHawker

March 19th, 2010, 05:08 PM

Whether the vote is 4-3, 5-2 or 6-1, Georgetown does not have the money to invest in full scholarship football right now. Could you have a scenario with six full ride schools and one with none? Possibly. The university probably has $100 million in unfunded athletic construction projects to deal with and a number of other issues to fight through, including finding an athletic director (vacant since 4/09) and addressing the growing strain of financial aid on the school's budget. The PL leadership knows this and is not going to put pressure on Georgetown to go elsewhere and risk dropping to six schools as a result.

I hope the PL leadership is not held captive by the inept G'town football program and financial management.

DFW - no offense, we love G'town, but to allow one very weak member to hold up a movement to schollies would be a shame. The risk to dropping to 6 members is far less IMO than standing pat.

Go...gate

March 19th, 2010, 05:45 PM

I hope the PL leadership is not held captive by the inept G'town football program and financial management.

DFW - no offense, we love G'town, but to allow one very weak member to hold up a movement to schollies would be a shame. The risk to dropping to 6 members is far less IMO than standing pat.

xnodx

DetroitFlyer

March 19th, 2010, 06:10 PM

GT is going to join the PFL for football! After today, they may want to join the powerful A-10 in basketball and get out of the Big Least.

DFW HOYA

March 19th, 2010, 06:13 PM

MplsBison

March 19th, 2010, 07:25 PM

Since when did this discussion turn mutually exclusive? It's never been up or out.

A scholarship vote does not require a unanimous vote and besides, you don't need Georgetown's support, you need Lafayette and Holy Cross.

Because if Gtown doesn't add scholarships they'll be kicked out of the PL football conference.

401ks

March 19th, 2010, 08:00 PM

danefan

March 19th, 2010, 08:33 PM

I would just like to reiterate that Palermo's tomato pie in Bordentown might be the best pizza in the entire world. xsmiley_wix

Bogus Megapardus

March 19th, 2010, 08:53 PM

Pizza!

Carney, this is serious business. You've had the pizza at Fisher Field on game day (when they have it). It sucks. If we can't improve the pizza quality, how can we expect to recruit qualified scholarship athletes?

bison137

March 20th, 2010, 01:35 PM

Because if Gtown doesn't add scholarships they'll be kicked out of the PL football conference.

Wrong, as usual.

RichH2

March 20th, 2010, 01:37 PM

Dont even bother to tell him he is wrong. Like all idealogues he has an idea and skews the facts to his side or ignores them altogether

Bogus Megapardus

March 20th, 2010, 02:41 PM

- There's no such thing as the "PL Football Conference."

- Georgetown can't get "kicked out" of anything.

- The Hoyas are not going to the PFL. They'd just as soon drop football.

- PL football scholarships are are a crapshoot; it's anyone's guess. But the PL will survive either way.

- Forget football; Georgetown' facilities are an embarrassment even to its lacrosse team, and they know it. Something's got to give, and hopefully soon.

- I'd be more worried about Holy Cross bolting the PL.

DFW HOYA

March 20th, 2010, 03:04 PM

- There's no such thing as the "PL Football Conference." - Georgetown can't get "kicked out" of anything.

Well, yes and no. Per the PL bylaws, "Associate membership status may be revoked on notice to the institution’s President at any time and upon 30 days notice in the sole discretion of the Council of Presidents. Revocation will be effective at the conclusion of the particular sport season(s) for which an institution was granted the status of an associate member. This decision shall not be subject to review by any body or court."

That having been said, joining the NEC or being an independent is more practical than joining the Pioneer.

Forget football; Georgetown' facilities are an embarrassment even to its lacrosse team, and they know it. Something's got to give, and hopefully soon.

You mean this "facility"?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5aDKqsf1RVE/SrLuV9hxo6I/AAAAAAAAAGA/eRygpx1_2x4/s320/msf7.jpg

Seriously, I watched the GU-Delaware lacrosse game on TV and the MSF field condition has really deteriorated over its five year term. Fieldturf is supposed to last 10 years but that field now gets 12-16 hours of regular activity on it a day and it is really showing. Replacing FieldTurf isn't cheap and, of course, where will the money come from...

MplsBison

March 20th, 2010, 03:34 PM

But will the NEC take you without scholarships?

I still don't buy that no football scholarships at GU is a purely financial decision. I smell anti-football ideologies controlling the show.

Lehigh Football Nation

March 22nd, 2010, 09:58 AM

Carney, this is serious business. You've had the pizza at Fisher Field on game day (when they have it). It sucks. If we can't improve the pizza quality, how can we expect to recruit qualified scholarship athletes?

I appreciate the Domino's Pizza in the press box at Leh and Laf games. xhurrayx And in a nationwide taste test, they beat Papa Gino's! :p

Bogus Megapardus

March 23rd, 2010, 12:03 AM

You mean this "facility"?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5aDKqsf1RVE/SrLuV9hxo6I/AAAAAAAAAGA/eRygpx1_2x4/s320/msf7.jpg

Yep. I hear Pizza Hut won't even deliver to that neighborhood.

carney2

March 23rd, 2010, 11:49 AM

Carney, this is serious business. You've had the pizza at Fisher Field on game day (when they have it). It sucks. If we can't improve the pizza quality, how can we expect to recruit qualified scholarship athletes?

Now we are finally zeroing in on the real issues here. The way to a recruit's heart is through his stomach. Perhaps LC, instead of spending megabux on frivolous crapola (purchasing the contaminated site of a former gas station for $1 million, purchasing the site of an eyesore "hubcap store" at a location they legally are prevented from building on, hiring a Dean of Diversity [I kid you not!], and God knows what else) should hire a world class pizza chef and set him to work thrilling the undergrads. The Pards would probably end up with an admissions rate under 10% and a football team that could go toe to toe with Penn State.

Bogus Megapardus

March 23rd, 2010, 12:11 PM

Now we are finally zeroing in on the real issues here. The way to a recruit's heart is through his stomach. Perhaps LC, instead of spending megabux on frivolous crapola (purchasing the contaminated site of a former gas station for $1 million, purchasing the site of an eyesore "hubcap store" at a location they legally are prevented from building on, hiring a Dean of Diversity [I kid you not!], and God knows what else) should hire a world class pizza chef and set him to work thrilling the undergrads. The Pards would probably end up with an admissions rate under 10% and a football team that could go toe to toe with Penn State.

Problem is, Carney, that the cost of going toe-to-toe with Penn State will increase exponentially now that the college and its president are required to publish and disseminate an "apology" for inartful fan behavior after every game. The increase in the number of fans will necessitate a tripling of the public relations staff, not to mention the week-long seminars in groveling and obsequiousness that will be expected towards that "other place."

ngineer

March 24th, 2010, 12:06 AM

Can't confirm this one, but somewhere, MplsBison has just spit up his coffee...

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?t=68841

Just in time for Halloween!!

Lehigh Football Nation

March 24th, 2010, 12:08 AM

Now we are finally zeroing in on the real issues here. The way to a recruit's heart is through his stomach. Perhaps LC, instead of spending megabux on frivolous crapola (purchasing the contaminated site of a former gas station for $1 million, purchasing the site of an eyesore "hubcap store" at a location they legally are prevented from building on, hiring a Dean of Diversity [I kid you not!], and God knows what else) should hire a world class pizza chef and set him to work thrilling the undergrads. The Pards would probably end up with an admissions rate under 10% and a football team that could go toe to toe with Penn State.

I know how this works, carney. Lehigh will then feel obliged to beat LC, and next thing you know, the unemployment problems of ABE are fixes since everyone is getting into the pizza business. xlolx