MAC expansion and dominoes

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://bull-run.blogspot.com/2010/03/mac-conference-expansion-rumors.html


The MAC meetings are going on in Chicago, and according to a coach in attendance, there was more talk about expanding the league to 14 teams with adding Temple (Atlantic 10 for all sports but football) and Western Kentucky (Sun Belt) as full members. Temple plays a MAC schedule in football and has added MAC nonconference games for basketball. This kind of decision would be made for football, but if they did ever join the league in hoops, it would make this league even tougher and potentially put it in position to earn multiple bids (which hasn't happened since 1999).

If this were to happen, it would create some interesting domino possibilities.

1) WKU jumps to MAC and Texas State, UTSA or South Alabama jump to Sun Belch football (or two, or all three)

2) Temple jumps to MAC and Hofstra joins the A-10

3) Temple stays in the A-10 and James Madison joins the MAC

Thoughts?

[dbackjon]

South Alabama is already in the Sunbelt, and will be a football member once the two-year FCS mandate is completed.

[bluehenbillk]

Not sure Temple wants to do that. They have a deal with the MAC currently where they play a number of MAC teams in hoops, but not sure they'd wanna do it full-time.

[Franks Tanks]

MAC basketball would be a downgrade for Temple basketball and we all know Temple is a B-Ball school. I dont see that happening.

[bandit]

I sincerely doubt that Temple would agree to full-time MAC membership considering they might be first in line to replace any members the Big East loses in Big 10 expansion.

[MplsBison]

If the MAC wants to add more members, all they have to do is look at Youngstown St and Illinois St.

[Franks Tanks]

If the MAC wants to add more members, all they have to do is look at Youngstown St and Illinois St.

Would they be allowed to move up to FBS football without a "waiting period"

[GannonFan]

Agree with others - Temple isn't going to voluntarily go all MAC because they won't be willing to downgrade the men's basketball side of things. Playing in football is one thing - at the time they needed a weak conference that could provide them some W's and that's what they got. And it didn't require them to gut the basketball schedule as they only had to play so many MAC teams OOC. But the MAC is a long way from Philly and a huge step down basketball-wise (the A-10, although not a great conference in anything else, is a really strong men's basketball conference - just look at this year with the 4-5 teams getting in).

The other teams going to the MAC (WKU or JMU) wouldn't be too shocking - the latter only if no one else from the CAA decides to move up in a few years and they have to do it alone.

[danefan]

Would they be allowed to move up to FBS football without a "waiting period"

They would have to wait until 2011 under the current rules. The two year waiting period only applies to those starting football programs or transitioning from DII.

However, what the transition rules from FCS to FBS will be when the moratorium is lifted is anyone's guess.

[Franks Tanks]

They would have to wait until 2011 under the current rules. The two year waiting period only applies to those starting football programs or transitioning from DII.

However, what the transition rules from FCS to FBS will be when the moratorium is lifted is anyone's guess.


Ya, I think its reasonable to expect harder standards to move to FBS.

FBS has enough schools like Eastern Michigan and North Texas who wish they could draw as well as some FCS powers.

[MplsBison]

Ya, I think its reasonable to expect harder standards to move to FBS.

FBS has enough schools like Eastern Michigan and North Texas who wish they could draw as well as some FCS powers.

Youngstown would have plenty to gain by being in the MAC with Akron and Kent. Right now, their closest MVFC trip is to western Indiana.

Illinois St doesn't have near as much to gain, in terms of travel, but they have a stated goal of moving up to FBS from their president. The MAC is their only realistic chance and N Illinois is already in the conference and without much of a travel partner.


This of course opens up the MVFC to expansion.

[JMUDuke2002]

I sincerely doubt that Temple would agree to full-time MAC membership considering they might be first in line to replace any members the Big East loses in Big 10 expansion.

Why would the Big East take back a school they booted out in 2005? Temple to the Big East isn't happening.

[bandit]

Why would the Big East take back a school they booted out in 2005? Temple to the Big East isn't happening.


There is a different administration at Temple now who is committed to pouring resources into football. And, more importantly, if the Big East needs to expand in order to survive (which might be the case depending on what the Big 10 does), there are limited options. Temple might not get the bid, but they would certainly be in the running - - and it would be foolish beyond belief for them to commit to the MAC when the Big East's situation is unsettled.

[JMUDuke2002]

There is a different administration at Temple now who is committed to pouring resources into football. And, more importantly, if the Big East needs to expand in order to survive (which might be the case depending on what the Big 10 does), there are limited options. Temple might not get the bid, but they would certainly be in the running - - and it would be foolish beyond belief for them to commit to the MAC when the Big East's situation is unsettled.

So, when the Big Ten pulls Rutgers away, you as the Big East commish are going to tell your member schools that all is well, because we've got Temple waiting? Come on. Rutgers, Pitt and/or Syracuse leaves its going to be Memphis, BC (the ACC thing isn't working out so well) or Central Florida.

I understand your reasoning, but it still isn't happening. Temple has had one good football season in recent memory and still lost to a FCS. They are stuck in a market dominated by the Eagles and Nittany Lions, and with the recent round of state budget cuts that money you say that's been pumped into football will probably dry up. Nevermind that Al Golden is going to bolt the second a better job comes a long, and that Philadelphia isn't a college football town. Temple's future is in the MAC, CUSA or a new FBS east coast conference.

[SFspidur]

The Katz ESPN article being cited is from May 2008...that UB site seems to have been a bit slow in picking up on it. ;)

[MplsBison]

So, when the Big Ten pulls Rutgers away, you as the Big East commish are going to tell your member schools that all is well, because we've got Temple waiting? Come on. Rutgers, Pitt and/or Syracuse leaves its going to be Memphis, BC (the ACC thing isn't working out so well) or Central Florida.

I understand your reasoning, but it still isn't happening. Temple has had one good football season in recent memory and still lost to a FCS. They are stuck in a market dominated by the Eagles and Nittany Lions, and with the recent round of state budget cuts that money you say that's been pumped into football will probably dry up. Nevermind that Al Golden is going to bolt the second a better job comes a long, and that Philadelphia isn't a college football town. Temple's future is in the MAC, CUSA or a new FBS east coast conference.

In regards to BC, I actually think it will be the other way around. What traditional BCS schools left in the Big East, after the Big Ten has taken who they want, will be taken by the ACC.

[bandit]

So, when the Big Ten pulls Rutgers away, you as the Big East commish are going to tell your member schools that all is well, because we've got Temple waiting? Come on. Rutgers, Pitt and/or Syracuse leaves its going to be Memphis, BC (the ACC thing isn't working out so well) or Central Florida.

I understand your reasoning, but it still isn't happening. Temple has had one good football season in recent memory and still lost to a FCS. They are stuck in a market dominated by the Eagles and Nittany Lions, and with the recent round of state budget cuts that money you say that's been pumped into football will probably dry up. Nevermind that Al Golden is going to bolt the second a better job comes a long, and that Philadelphia isn't a college football town. Temple's future is in the MAC, CUSA or a new FBS east coast conference.

No, I never said that the commish will indicate "all is well" because Temple is waiting in the wings. Anybody that is brought in, Temple included, will obviously be insufficient to replace whoever is lost. The BE will take a hit if it loses a member. I agree that Memphis and Central Florida will also be candidates, as will East Carolina.

BC is never, ever, ever gonna happen - there is no way on earth they leave the ACC and more money to come back to the Big East, especially if the BE loses a key member to the Big 10.

Whether Temple will get the spot over Memphis, UCF or ECU is debatable, but they will be without question in the mix and under consideration. Keep in mind that the Big 10 has expressed a willingness to consider expanding beyond 12, which means the Big East may be looking to replace more than 1 member.

And as long as the Big East's situation is unsettled, and Temple is a potential candidate for Big East inclusion, they will never agree to join the MAC for all sports.

[bandit]

In regards to BC, I actually think it will be the other way around. What traditional BCS schools left in the Big East, after the Big Ten has taken who they want, will be taken by the ACC.


I agree - if the Big 10 decides to take more than 1 Big East school - say they take Rutgers and Pitt - the ACC can effectively destroy their eastern competition and add 2 quality programs at the same time by adding UCONN and Syracuse. If the Big 10 takes more than 1 BE program, I expect the BE will cease to exist in its current form, and there will be some interesting alignments and changes. It's really all in the hands of the Big 10.

[JSU02]

The Big 10, SEC, Pac-10, and ACC can effectively kill the Big-12 and Big East by expanding to 14 each if they want to. Will be interesting to see if they all "go for the jugular".

[MplsBison]

I think the Big XII is safe so long as no one takes Texas. I can see where Texas doesn't want anything to change either, they get a lot of money out of the current "arrangement".

The Big East football conference is toast. The Big Ten will at least take Rutgers or Syracuse to expand the cable network base for the Big Ten Network and the ACC will swoop in and take the leftovers, potentially up to 4 schools (say Big Ten takes Rutgers and ACC takes Pitt/West Virginia and Uconn/Syracuse). The Big East name will live on as a Catholic bball league.

[DFW HOYA]

The Big East name will live on as a Catholic bball league.

No thanks. Such a concept is a non-starter for ND, Georgetown, and Villanova.

[Cocky]

The Big Ten will take BC, Notre Dame, and Rutgers. Then the SEC will takes FSU and Miami or Texas and Texas A&M. Then the PAC 10 takes OK, Colorado, Utah and Nebraska. The ACC will take UCONN, Syracuse, or Pitt. The Big 12 will get Memphis, TCU, Wyoming, Houston, BYU, Boise, or New Mexico.
This is all factual I have the inside source from every league in the USA. JSU will end up in the SEC if any of the ones above decline the SEC invite.

[bostonspider]

No thanks. Such a concept is a non-starter for ND, Georgetown, and Villanova.

Well it will be interesting to see what those schools end up doing if the BE breaks up. Will they be invited to stay as non-football members by the likes of Syracuse and UConn? Or will they be forced to stay with Seton Hall, SJU, PC, Marquette and Depaul. Combine those with Xavier, Dayton, St. Louis and say Richmond and you have a nice 12 school conference easily divided into east and west divisions.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

As others have said Temple is not going to join the MAC as a full time member. The powers that be at Temple have made it clear that their goal is get back in to the Big East. This time as an all sports member. The school is in the process of doing a feasibility study for an on campus facility.

Temple has really stepped up their game in all areas. The campus is changing each semester, not each year.

I don't see Golden leaving until Paterno steps down. I think Al will hold out hope for the PSU job.

[PantherRob82]

The Big Ten will take BC, Notre Dame, and Rutgers. Then the SEC will takes FSU and Miami or Texas and Texas A&M. Then the PAC 10 takes OK, Colorado, Utah and Nebraska. The ACC will take UCONN, Syracuse, or Pitt. The Big 12 will get Memphis, TCU, Wyoming, Houston, BYU, Boise, or New Mexico.
This is all factual I have the inside source from every league in the USA. JSU will end up in the SEC if any of the ones above decline the SEC invite.

I LOL'd at this post. xlolx

[Bogus Megapardus]

As others have said Temple is not going to join the MAC as a full time member. The powers that be at Temple have made it clear that their goal is get back in to the Big East. This time as an all sports member. The school is in the process of doing a feasibility study for an on campus facility.

Temple has really stepped up their game in all areas. The campus is changing each semester, not each year.

I don't see Golden leaving until Paterno steps down. I think Al will hold out hope for the PSU job.

Maybe you can explain something - Like Pitt and Penn State, Temple is is a "state related" but not a state run university (the latter include West Chester, Stroudsburg, IUP, etc.). How does the athletic facility funding work at Temple, then? What would it take for Temple to have its own football stadium? My assumption always has been that Temple would have to build it entirely with private money and independent financing. Is this correct?

[rufus]

The other teams going to the MAC (WKU or JMU) wouldn't be too shocking - the latter only if no one else from the CAA decides to move up in a few years and they have to do it alone.

I don't see JMU jumping to the MAC right now, but maybe it is something that could happen in a few years if other CAA members don't quickly start making moves toward FBS. JMU's official position seems to be "We're spending $62M to expand our stadium to 25,000 seats with possible expansion to 40,000 seats to ensure that we have a high-quality FCS stadium. *Wink wink nudge nudge* We have no plans to move to FBS in the immediate future. *Wink*"

That being said, the AD has made it pretty clear that he would like to see JMU move to FBS with a collection of similar schools. As a CAA charter member, I can't see JMU being willing to walk away from the CAA in all sports for the MAC. It's not like the MAC would have any interest in JMU's horrendous basketball program anyway, so it is probably a moot point.

[MplsBison]

No thanks. Such a concept is a non-starter for ND, Georgetown, and Villanova.

Georgetown and Villanova have no seat at the table. This is about BCS football.

Notre Dame is patently happy with being an independent BCS football program and being with the Catholics in bball. They won't lift a finger if the ACC and Big Ten take the major football programs from the Big East. In fact, they'll probably be grateful that they won't be forced into the Big Ten.


Honestly, what are Gtown and 'Nova going to do about it? Tell Syracuse and UConn that they can't go to the ACC while stamping your foot? xcoffeex

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As others have said Temple is not going to join the MAC as a full time member. The powers that be at Temple have made it clear that their goal is get back in to the Big East. This time as an all sports member. The school is in the process of doing a feasibility study for an on campus facility.

Temple has really stepped up their game in all areas. The campus is changing each semester, not each year.

I don't see Golden leaving until Paterno steps down. I think Al will hold out hope for the PSU job.

This post makes a lot of sense. Temple joining the MAC doesn't really help Temple that much, though it would be a coup for the MAC. It seems - like everyone else - Temple is waiting to see what happens in the Big East and is looking to be a Plan B in case one or more schools leave the conference to form their own football league.

Here's a curveball: What if the MAC expanded with WKU in the West... and Cleveland State in the East?

It looks like, though, if Temple isn't a part of the MAC expansion it's either JMU... or someone who's behind door No. 3. Either way it doesn't affect FCS much.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

http://bull-run.blogspot.com/2010/03/mac-conference-expansion-rumors.html



If this were to happen, it would create some interesting domino possibilities.

1) WKU jumps to MAC and Texas State, UTSA or South Alabama jump to Sun Belch football (or two, or all three)

2) Temple jumps to MAC and Hofstra joins the A-10

3) Temple stays in the A-10 and James Madison joins the MAC

Thoughts?


1) South Alabama is already scheduled for the Sunbelt for football. UTSA and Texas St. are already on the Sunbelt radar. It is assumed at this point that the Sunbelt will invite these schools regardless of what happens with their current members.

2) Most A10 fans prefer to go smaller and stay at 13 if a team leaves. If the admins wanted 14, you'd see them go after stronger programs than Hofstra, like Butler (especially with SLU, Xavier and Dayton in the league). The A10 could revisit schools they've researched before such as Detroit and Boston University (since Holy Cross would likely decline). ODU is another, but said they had no interest at the time.

3) The MAC is the conference that many upgrades look at because it's the only option. If JMU were to upgrade, they would have the MAC option OR the Sunbelt. I think the Sunbelt would be a more attractive option with 2 Florida schools (recruiting).

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Why would the Big East take back a school they booted out in 2005? Temple to the Big East isn't happening.

Many reasons.
1) if there were a split and they lost Nova (Philly market) they'd need a replacement
2) The Big East that expelled Temple was a higher quality product with championship caliber programs like Miami and Virginia Tech. BC was also a member. The product is not quite the same with USF, Cincy and Louisville.
3) If the Big East were to lose 2 members like Syracuse, Rutgers or even Pitt or Uconn, AND retain sponsorship of the sport and invite all-sports members, the picking swill be slim. Football programs like UCF and ECU would be fine, but the basketball product would suffer. Memphis would help that. And all of a sudden, Temple could be on the radar.
4) If there were a split OR BE football expansion to 12 members (and replacing 1-2 members who left for B10), the Big East would need 5-6 members. Looking at the top 5-6 candidates, Temple might still be on the list (Memphis, UCF, ECU, Houston, TCU, Temple)

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Cleveland State is going to start football? I don't think the MAC is interested in any school that doesn't play FBS football.

I agree that Temple has other plans. IMO, probably the only chance that Temple went full MAC is if UMass went along. That's your curveball!! UMass and Temple have built a rivalry with all these years in the A-10. And UMass is only going that route if it's the only option left. Box UMass into a corner with no high level, full scholly FCS option, then they'll have to go FBS or "cut bait" with football.

xtwocentsx xtwocentsx xtwocentsx xtwocentsx xtwocentsx xtwocentsx

At some future date, it wouldn't shock me to see Temple, UMass and Buffalo aligned together. The question is would it be as a North Division or an East Division of a conference. xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

[CollegeSportsInfo]

This post makes a lot of sense. Temple joining the MAC doesn't really help Temple that much, though it would be a coup for the MAC. It seems - like everyone else - Temple is waiting to see what happens in the Big East and is looking to be a Plan B in case one or more schools leave the conference to form their own football league.

Here's a curveball: What if the MAC expanded with WKU in the West... and Cleveland State in the East?

It looks like, though, if Temple isn't a part of the MAC expansion it's either JMU... or someone who's behind door No. 3. Either way it doesn't affect FCS much.

Huh? No football at Cleveland St. And if they did, it would be a start-up. Why take a startup when you have FCS programs like YSU? Furthermore, if the MAC wanted a non-football member, wouldn't they just look at Butler which is a stronger program than any other in the Horizon? It would also mean that Temple was out of the MAC for football...which does the MAC little good since they have a basketball scheduling agreement with Temple that has benefited the MAC schools SOS.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

So, when the Big Ten pulls Rutgers away, you as the Big East commish are going to tell your member schools that all is well, because we've got Temple waiting? Come on. Rutgers, Pitt and/or Syracuse leaves its going to be Memphis, BC (the ACC thing isn't working out so well) or Central Florida.

I understand your reasoning, but it still isn't happening. Temple has had one good football season in recent memory and still lost to a FCS. They are stuck in a market dominated by the Eagles and Nittany Lions, and with the recent round of state budget cuts that money you say that's been pumped into football will probably dry up. Nevermind that Al Golden is going to bolt the second a better job comes a long, and that Philadelphia isn't a college football town. Temple's future is in the MAC, CUSA or a new FBS east coast conference.

Define "working out"? College sports are a business. Period. And what school is going to forfeit money and make a bad business decision? None at this level. And if BC were going to leave the ACC the year before they have a new TV contract (expecting a huge increase), why on earth would they leave for a conference that could lose 1-4 of it's members such as Syracuse, Rutgers, Pitt and UConn? The Big East would be at risk of losing their BCS spot if even 1 top football school left. BC or any other BCS school would never consider such a risk.

I'm all for speculation...but not at the risk of throwing away basic logic.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

I agree - if the Big 10 decides to take more than 1 Big East school - say they take Rutgers and Pitt - the ACC can effectively destroy their eastern competition and add 2 quality programs at the same time by adding UCONN and Syracuse. If the Big 10 takes more than 1 BE program, I expect the BE will cease to exist in its current form, and there will be some interesting alignments and changes. It's really all in the hands of the Big 10.

I concur. But I think the B10 would be best off with Rutgers and Syracuse. Uconn and Pitt then fall to the ACC. It would be a great business move by the ACC to goto 14 since with the then demise of the Big East, the ACC would actually be able to compensate their per-school revenue by expanding to 14, which is rare. But it would take a perfect stormL Big Ten would need to move first with (2) BE schools. The ACC would then react with 2 BE schools. It would be a risk if the ACC added 2 BE schools first if the Big Ten then added schools outside the BE markets like Missouri & Nebraska.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

xhurrayx
The Big Ten will take BC, Notre Dame, and Rutgers. Then the SEC will takes FSU and Miami or Texas and Texas A&M. Then the PAC 10 takes OK, Colorado, Utah and Nebraska. The ACC will take UCONN, Syracuse, or Pitt. The Big 12 will get Memphis, TCU, Wyoming, Houston, BYU, Boise, or New Mexico.
This is all factual I have the inside source from every league in the USA. JSU will end up in the SEC if any of the ones above decline the SEC invite.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Cleveland State is going to start football? I don't think the MAC is interested in any school that doesn't play FBS football.

I agree that Temple has other plans. IMO, probably the only chance that Temple went full MAC is if UMass went along. That's your curveball!! UMass and Temple have built a rivalry with all these years in the A-10. And UMass is only going that route if it's the only option left. Box UMass into a corner with no high level, full scholly FCS option, then they'll have to go FBS or "cut bait" with football.

xtwocentsx xtwocentsx xtwocentsx xtwocentsx xtwocentsx xtwocentsx

At some future date, it wouldn't shock me to see Temple, UMass and Buffalo aligned together. The question is would it be as a North Division or an East Division of a conference. xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

I can't believe I forgot about UMass. Absolutely, they're in the mix. Complicating matters for them, though, is UConn. I get the feeling that UMass, like Temple, is positioning themselves for a Big East invite and the rekindling of that rivalry with the Huskies. Only problem is: McGuirk Stadium can't pretend to be a good enough stadium for FBS football. They would need a new stadium - which will cost.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I concur. But I think the B10 would be best off with Rutgers and Syracuse. Uconn and Pitt then fall to the ACC. It would be a great business move by the ACC to goto 14 since with the then demise of the Big East, the ACC would actually be able to compensate their per-school revenue by expanding to 14, which is rare. But it would take a perfect stormL Big Ten would need to move first with (2) BE schools. The ACC would then react with 2 BE schools. It would be a risk if the ACC added 2 BE schools first if the Big Ten then added schools outside the BE markets like Missouri & Nebraska.

It's funny how the conversation about alignment now focuses on money over everything else - including possible local rivalries, logic, and reason. As a business hungry for market share, the Big 10 grabbing Rutgers (NJ market, some NYC) and Syracuse (upper and Western NY, some NYC) makes some sense. But there is no "football synergy" by adding these two schools since they offer no rivalry and no hope of developing a rivalry. They'd be barren Eastern outposts of a league whose geographic Center is in South Bend - who, incidentally, will never leave Indy status unless NBC goes bankrupt.

Meanwhile, Pitt would supply Western PA and a built-in rivalry game with Penn State. But since the Big 10 already thinks of themselves as "owning that market" in terms of eyeballs and recruiting - not to mention "competition" with Penn State - they don't want to pursue it.

The most ironic thing of all is that this "pursuit of money at all costs" has not really benefited any individual school. Boston College isn't that happy about losing UConn to gain North Carolina in any sport. The CAA, mimicking the ACC's business plan, has lost two football teams and caused a near-panic among the CAA football crowd - and opened the floor to speculation that one or more might leave the CAA at the earliest opportunity.

Still, the money is there (in the BCS, anyway) and leagues like the Pac 10, Big 10 and ACC are willing to sell themselves for cash. The question is, though, whether the "Conference TV Network model" is going to be the way going forward. When they dry up - and they probably will - things will change in a hurry.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I can't believe I forgot about UMass. Absolutely, they're in the mix. Complicating matters for them, though, is UConn. I get the feeling that UMass, like Temple, is positioning themselves for a Big East invite and the rekindling of that rivalry with the Huskies. Only problem is: McGuirk Stadium can't pretend to be a good enough stadium for FBS football. They would need a new stadium - which will cost.

But unlike the Sled Dogs, UMass won't need donated land miles from campus to build that stadium. Plenty of land around McGuirk. And it's pretty easy to see an enhancement plan where one side of McGuirk is rebuilt at a time. Add some end zone seats at one end to fill it in. As always the issue with UMass is $$$$$$. They just don't have anywhere near the support of the Mass legislature that UConn does in CT. Going to take more private money in MA than it did in CT.

The $64K question is whether they can position themselves if a BE implosion does occur. Most likely the parochial schools in the A-10 and BE will evolve together into a hoop centric league. To maintain the high level of basketball desired in Amherst, they'll have to find a new alliance and it might require a step up in football to achieve that. After all, it was maintaining the high level of basketball that was the springboard for UConn's upgrade to FBS.

[doolittledog]

If Temple is in need of a stadium solution, the Philadelphia MLS team is just completing a 19k stadium that is very nice and easily expandable to 30k. That could be an option for Temple instead of the Link. Or a solution for 'Nova...or both, I suppose.

http://www.philadelphiaunion.com/Content3.aspx?cid=4.2

That link has images, a webcam and a virtual seat finder.

[bluehenbillk]

Many reasons.
1) if there were a split and they lost Nova (Philly market) they'd need a replacement
2) The Big East that expelled Temple was a higher quality product with championship caliber programs like Miami and Virginia Tech. BC was also a member. The product is not quite the same with USF, Cincy and Louisville.
3) If the Big East were to lose 2 members like Syracuse, Rutgers or even Pitt or Uconn, AND retain sponsorship of the sport and invite all-sports members, the picking swill be slim. Football programs like UCF and ECU would be fine, but the basketball product would suffer. Memphis would help that. And all of a sudden, Temple could be on the radar.
4) If there were a split OR BE football expansion to 12 members (and replacing 1-2 members who left for B10), the Big East would need 5-6 members. Looking at the top 5-6 candidates, Temple might still be on the list (Memphis, UCF, ECU, Houston, TCU, Temple)

Being a TU alum and an Owl Club member I can tell you that saying there is zero chance of any of the above happening it'd be an exaggeration. There is a serious divide between TU & the Big East. If either side made a phone call I doubt the other side would even pick up. TU & the Big East together again is a bad pipe dream.

[bluehenbillk]

If Temple is in need of a stadium solution, the Philadelphia MLS team is just completing a 19k stadium that is very nice and easily expandable to 30k. That could be an option for Temple instead of the Link. Or a solution for 'Nova...or both, I suppose.

http://www.philadelphiaunion.com/Content3.aspx?cid=4.2

That link has images, a webcam and a virtual seat finder.

Temple, which is located in North Philly, going all the way out to Chester to play football?? Yeah, buy a map. xthumbsdownx

[Bogus Megapardus]

If you've ever been to Chester, you know North Philly is a nicer neighborhood. xthumbsdownx

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Being a TU alum and an Owl Club member I can tell you that saying there is zero chance of any of the above happening it'd be an exaggeration. There is a serious divide between TU & the Big East. If either side made a phone call I doubt the other side would even pick up. TU & the Big East together again is a bad pipe dream.

I'm a Temple alum too and am active when it comes to our athletics. I disagree with you when it comes to the rift between the BE and Temple. Temple has to find a long term home for football because it isn't in the MAC. Where do they end up in a few years? Are the Eagles going to allow Temple to renew their lease at the Linc if they're drawing 15k people in the MAC?

[MplsBison]

For what it's worth, maybe Notre Dame might just join the Big Ten in this lifetime?

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4979435

[JohnStOnge]

I think the reference to making the MAC "even tougher," as though it's an extraordinarily tough basketball conference, is a bit much. It's a mediocre basketball conference.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

It's funny how the conversation about alignment now focuses on money over everything else - including possible local rivalries, logic, and reason. As a business hungry for market share, the Big 10 grabbing Rutgers (NJ market, some NYC) and Syracuse (upper and Western NY, some NYC) makes some sense. But there is no "football synergy" by adding these two schools since they offer no rivalry and no hope of developing a rivalry. They'd be barren Eastern outposts of a league whose geographic Center is in South Bend - who, incidentally, will never leave Indy status unless NBC goes bankrupt.

Meanwhile, Pitt would supply Western PA and a built-in rivalry game with Penn State. But since the Big 10 already thinks of themselves as "owning that market" in terms of eyeballs and recruiting - not to mention "competition" with Penn State - they don't want to pursue it.

The most ironic thing of all is that this "pursuit of money at all costs" has not really benefited any individual school. Boston College isn't that happy about losing UConn to gain North Carolina in any sport. The CAA, mimicking the ACC's business plan, has lost two football teams and caused a near-panic among the CAA football crowd - and opened the floor to speculation that one or more might leave the CAA at the earliest opportunity.

Still, the money is there (in the BCS, anyway) and leagues like the Pac 10, Big 10 and ACC are willing to sell themselves for cash. The question is, though, whether the "Conference TV Network model" is going to be the way going forward. When they dry up - and they probably will - things will change in a hurry.


Money is at the top of the list in regards to logic. Money is the reason for the expansion in the first place. You can blame TV for the change in selection criteria. It wasn't that long ago when TV contracts were minimal and there were other factors that dominated the selection criteria.

But the TV contracts determine the path. For the Big Ten, Pitt adds little compared to Rutgers, Syracuse, Missouri, Nebraska, etc. Not to mention the B10 has the BTN...so they can figure out how much new revenue that network alone would generate. The days of "poke and hope" are over. Even look at the WCC. Seattle would be a good fit, along with a 10th team like Pacific (or even Denver). But the WCC TV contract isn't worth it. If they expand, they need to make enough revenue to justify it to the current members.

I will disagree about expansion with Rutgers or Syracuse. Either would become the Penn St. "rival" right away. A Penn St. at Rutgers football game would gain at worst a 7 share in the NY and Phil DMAs.

And this holds for most realignment paths: rivalries are born. We've seen schools join conferences the past few decades and form intense rivalries with schools they had none with in the past.

As for BC, they are plenty happy with the increased revenue. But I agree they would be happier if the ACC invited UConn and Syracuse.

As for the CAA...that whole move was a joke. Yes, it's the best FCS conference and I'm happy Umass is in it. But the move to add Northeastern was done ONLY to get the sponsorship leverage. NU in the CAA made no sense for all other sports. Instead of 4 football trips from the northeast to CAA campuses, they have to fly ALL their teams to EVERY CAA school. That's alot of travel. If they were still in the AE, they'd have the money to cover football. But it's no more. The CAA also expanded far south into Atlanta with Georgia St. So the CAA problems were:
1) just because a school is in a market, doesn't mean anyone knows it (NU is behind BC, Harvard, BU and UMass in Boston)
2) No TV money: the CAA TV contract wasn't enough to make it worth increasing the travel costs so much

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Being a TU alum and an Owl Club member I can tell you that saying there is zero chance of any of the above happening it'd be an exaggeration. There is a serious divide between TU & the Big East. If either side made a phone call I doubt the other side would even pick up. TU & the Big East together again is a bad pipe dream.

Temple was a non-voting football associate member under the Big East brand. WVU, Rutgers, VA Tech were in a similar spot. It's a big difference than being a voting member. Decisions are not made based on emotion, they are based on the facts. And revenue has been an important fact in the decision making process. And if you think that if Dr. Hart got a call from the Big East today, that Temple wouldn't accept all-sports membership in 5 minutes, then I don't know what to tell ya.

[bluehenbillk]

Yep, the Big Eas is just itching to call Temple. Let me explain this to you in terms someone from Massachusetts will understand. Curt Schilling has a better chance of shutting up in retirement than the Big East and TU talking again.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Yep, the Big Eas is just itching to call Temple. Let me explain this to you in terms someone from Massachusetts will understand. Curt Schilling has a better chance of shutting up in retirement than the Big East and TU talking again.

Well where do you think Temple is going to end up? Something is going to happen. We can't hold on to our associate membership in the MAC forever. I do not want our basketball program to move in to the MAC full time. Thankfully, that sentiment seems to be the concensus among TU people. Would Temple consider moving to CUSA as an all sports membership? Have litterally nothing in common with those institutions from a geographical standpoint?

If the Big East has a deflection or two i truly believe there will at least be conversation if Temple football continues to improve.

IMO, BC would be the likely candidate to return to the Big East should some one leave. Their move to the ACC has been a disaster.

[doolittledog]

Would the BC administration really care if they aren't competitive in the ACC as long as they are bringing in loads more money than they would if they were in the BE???

Northwestern often talks about scheduling games against "like minded universities" in football in scheduling Vanderbilt and Duke and others recently. Which leads to questions of them leaving the Big Ten. That will never happen because Northwestern likes the money they make by being in the Big Ten.

Anyways...with the likely shake up of FBS conferences on the near horizon. How will this affect the FCS? I've heard stories of a 12 schools per league, 8 league FCS with the MAC, Conference USA and Sun Belt moving to FCS route. Would we then see FCS do a similar move with some FCS conferences going D2? Or possibly an FCS-A and FCS-AA???

[Go...gate]

I sincerely doubt that Temple would agree to full-time MAC membership considering they might be first in line to replace any members the Big East loses in Big 10 expansion.

If Rutgers joins the Big Ten, and they are one of the teams which has been confirmed as being under consideration, Temple would certainly be considered to rejoin the Big East.

[bluehenbillk]

I'll buy whoever is left on this board a round of beers for posting a link saying at anytime in the future that the Big East & Temple are talking about conference affiliation. Believe me, it'd help TU's program, but you guys are in a parallel universe. The Big East came really close to killing the TU football program, there's no itch to re-scratch.

[bandit]

I'll buy whoever is left on this board a round of beers for posting a link saying at anytime in the future that the Big East & Temple are talking about conference affiliation. Believe me, it'd help TU's program, but you guys are in a parallel universe. The Big East came really close to killing the TU football program, there's no itch to re-scratch.


I'd say 3 things to this -

1 - this is a different Temple administration, and from everything I've read from Temple fans they are actually supporting football whereas the prior administration - which got the Owls ousted from the BE - were not interested. A different administration will also make a difference when it comes to personal relationships w/ BE schools.

2 - The BE doesn't have many attractive options to choose from and will not be in position to simply ignore a viable candidate in a major eastern market

3 - Whether Temple is going to be a serious candidate actually selected by the Big East is not the issue; as long as Temple believes they have a chance for BE membership, they are not going to accept full membership in the MAC.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I will disagree about expansion with Rutgers or Syracuse. Either would become the Penn St. "rival" right away. A Penn St. at Rutgers football game would gain at worst a 7 share in the NY and Phil DMAs.

I can't even begin to tell you how much I disagree with this. First of all, Penn State will mop the floor with Rutgers if last year is any indication. I realize the competitive gap is not THAT wide anymore, but there undoubtedly is a gap (and Rutgers is 2-22 lifetime vs. the Nittaninnies, and only winning ONCE since World War I). But Penn State and Rutgers are not even that similar in terms of institutions. Sure, both are very good academically, but Rutgers sports never have been a religion like Penn State. If anything, Rutgers lives in their Big East basketball rivalries more than anything else, whereas Penn State is first and foremost a football school.

Syracuse is a bit different, since they're the flagship athletic program of New York State and at least have some sort of history playing Penn State in football. But they've only beaten Penn State three times since 1970, too - and they've long since made football a back seat sport to basketball, too. There's just nothing really there to suggest that it will be a true "rivalry".

SU and RU, if they join the Big 10, would really be making the same mistake BC made - cheapening their overall product in order to cash a large check in one or two sports. For some folks, that's all it's about: but the real loser is the fans.

My thoughts run once again, though, to this "Big 10 Network" model of revenue. This model *will* die - it could take a while, but it *will* die. If conferences are counting on this to be the driver of revenue - or major networks, for that matter - there's going to be a BCS crisis someday. When I don't know, but it will happen.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'd say 3 things to this -

1 - this is a different Temple administration, and from everything I've read from Temple fans they are actually supporting football whereas the prior administration - which got the Owls ousted from the BE - were not interested. A different administration will also make a difference when it comes to personal relationships w/ BE schools.

2 - The BE doesn't have many attractive options to choose from and will not be in position to simply ignore a viable candidate in a major eastern market

3 - Whether Temple is going to be a serious candidate actually selected by the Big East is not the issue; as long as Temple believes they have a chance for BE membership, they are not going to accept full membership in the MAC.

Temple has another huge ace in the hole - access to the Linc for games. Put it this way: why take a different MAC team like Buffalo or an FBS start-up like UMass when Temple is already FBS and has a pro stadium to play in?

Temple offers the BE more than anybody. And that's not even including what they'd bring in basketball.

[JMUDuke2002]

It's funny how the conversation about alignment now focuses on money over everything else - including possible local rivalries, logic, and reason. As a business hungry for market share, the Big 10 grabbing Rutgers (NJ market, some NYC) and Syracuse (upper and Western NY, some NYC) makes some sense. But there is no "football synergy" by adding these two schools since they offer no rivalry and no hope of developing a rivalry. They'd be barren Eastern outposts of a league whose geographic Center is in South Bend - who, incidentally, will never leave Indy status unless NBC goes bankrupt.

Meanwhile, Pitt would supply Western PA and a built-in rivalry game with Penn State. But since the Big 10 already thinks of themselves as "owning that market" in terms of eyeballs and recruiting - not to mention "competition" with Penn State - they don't want to pursue it.

The most ironic thing of all is that this "pursuit of money at all costs" has not really benefited any individual school. Boston College isn't that happy about losing UConn to gain North Carolina in any sport. The CAA, mimicking the ACC's business plan, has lost two football teams and caused a near-panic among the CAA football crowd - and opened the floor to speculation that one or more might leave the CAA at the earliest opportunity.

Still, the money is there (in the BCS, anyway) and leagues like the Pac 10, Big 10 and ACC are willing to sell themselves for cash. The question is, though, whether the "Conference TV Network model" is going to be the way going forward. When they dry up - and they probably will - things will change in a hurry.


Actually, you need to look at your football history. Penn State (I'm a JMU and Penn State alum) had very little in common with the Big Ten, outside of being a football school and huge state U, before joining. They had played Ohio State and Michigan infrequently, in fact Penn State had more in common with the Big East due to existing rivalries with WVU, Pitt and Syracuse. The Nittany Lions have played Syracuse 70 times, WVU 57 and Pitt 96. Hell, they've even played Rutgers 24 times (more than they have played Michigan btw). And yet, PSU has fit nicely into the Big Ten by all accounts. I see no reason as to why Syracuse, Rutgers, Pitt or even WVU wouldn't be able to fit nicely as well. So, the two schools becoming eastern outposts with no rivalry in conference is just wrong. Hell, Syracuse or Pitt would fit in better than Indiana, NW and Purdue.

And as for Temple to the Big East, I stand by statement that it is a pipe dream. Why would the Big East go back to a failure. Temple may be "rising" as in they've had one winning season in nearly 20 years, but they are still a sub-.500 football team all time. Golden will bolt given a better opportunity and they can return to mediocrity. Hell, they may return to that next season. Philly doesn't care about college football. They haven't cared, ever to my knowledge. Well, maybe back when Penn was still considered FBS. The Big East will look elsewhere. Bank on it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Actually, you need to look at your football history...

Since 1970, Penn State is a combined 36-4 against both Syracuse and Rutgers. Forgive me, but to me a rivalry involves actually beating the other team more than twice each decade.

[MplsBison]

I'll buy whoever is left on this board a round of beers for posting a link saying at anytime in the future that the Big East & Temple are talking about conference affiliation. Believe me, it'd help TU's program, but you guys are in a parallel universe. The Big East came really close to killing the TU football program, there's no itch to re-scratch.

Which Big East are you talking about?

The Big East that still had BC, Miami and Virginia Tech?


Or the future Big East that won't have any traditional BCS football programs left after the Big Ten and ACC take them?

[JMUDuke2002]

Since 1970, Penn State is a combined 36-4 against both Syracuse and Rutgers. Forgive me, but to me a rivalry involves actually beating the other team more than twice each decade.

Perhaps, but that doesn't diminish that there is a history of a rivalry that has been in existence for nearly 100 years. Ask PSU alums who graduated before the Big Ten era and Syracuse will be listed as an old rival. Your earlier statement indicated that a school like Syracuse wouldn't fit in because of the lack of history. Well, you're wrong. PSU has a long history with Syracuse and Pitt. Both would fit in nicely as well as Rutgers.

As an alum, I prefer Syracuse over Pitt. The Pitt grads are going to hammer me for this but they add nothing. It isn't like the Big Ten is suffering in western PA and eastern Ohio. If you are looking to expand, you look to increase your revenue and foot print. The only reason Pitt would be invited is if political pressure comes into play, ala Virginia Tech to the ACC. Remember, Tech wasn't a part of the expansion because it didn't make sense with Virginia and Maryland already there. The ACC screwed themselves in my opinion by passing on Syracuse. Syracuse would have fit in better with BC, but instead VA governor applies pressure to UVA to get Tech an invite they didn't need but desperately wanted so they could feel better about themselves.

[jmu_duke07]

Perhaps, but that doesn't diminish that there is a history of a rivalry that has been in existence for nearly 100 years. Ask PSU alums who graduated before the Big Ten era and Syracuse will be listed as an old rival. Your earlier statement indicated that a school like Syracuse wouldn't fit in because of the lack of history. Well, you're wrong. PSU has a long history with Syracuse and Pitt. Both would fit in nicely as well as Rutgers.

As an alum, I prefer Syracuse over Pitt. The Pitt grads are going to hammer me for this but they add nothing. It isn't like the Big Ten is suffering in western PA and eastern Ohio. If you are looking to expand, you look to increase your revenue and foot print. The only reason Pitt would be invited is if political pressure comes into play, ala Virginia Tech to the ACC. Remember, Tech wasn't a part of the expansion because it didn't make sense with Virginia and Maryland already there. The ACC screwed themselves in my opinion by passing on Syracuse. Syracuse would have fit in better with BC, but instead VA governor applies pressure to UVA to get Tech an invite they didn't need but desperately wanted so they could feel better about themselves.

Honestly, Tech fits better in the SEC than the ACC.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Yep, the Big Eas is just itching to call Temple. Let me explain this to you in terms someone from Massachusetts will understand. Curt Schilling has a better chance of shutting up in retirement than the Big East and TU talking again.

You can misconstrue what the other posters are saying all you'd like. Nobody is inferring that Temple is even remotely an attractive candidate for the current Big East. But the same could be said for South Florida and Cincy not that long ago. And if the Big East lost members and needed replacements to stay afloat, they would have to look below them yet again. And once you get past Memphis for all-sports, the next tier of candidates have questionmarks on the basketball side at UCF and ECU.

There has been talk of IF the Big Ten and Pac-10 expand to 12, that the BCS criteria could include changes that would require BCS conferences to have 12 members. If that happened on top of the Big East losing 2-4 members to the Big Ten and ACC, there could very well be a need for multiple new teams in the Big East (yes, would likely be a split by that point). And if you think USM, UAB, and Houston are all more attractive candidates than Temple, then cheers to you. But the Philadelphia market would trump USM and UAB for sure.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Well where do you think Temple is going to end up? Something is going to happen. We can't hold on to our associate membership in the MAC forever. I do not want our basketball program to move in to the MAC full time. Thankfully, that sentiment seems to be the concensus among TU people. Would Temple consider moving to CUSA as an all sports membership? Have litterally nothing in common with those institutions from a geographical standpoint?

If the Big East has a deflection or two i truly believe there will at least be conversation if Temple football continues to improve.

IMO, BC would be the likely candidate to return to the Big East should some one leave. Their move to the ACC has been a disaster.

You bring up an excellent point. The eastern CUSA schools have had some resentment towards the new look of CUSA, being Texascentric. There have been rumblings of the eastern teams preferring a more eastern conferences...but it's mostly smoke to cover up the obvious desire by Memphis, ECU, UCF and Marshall to be in the Big East rather than CUSA. Unfortunately for the CUSA-East4, there aren't enough high quality programs in the region to justify leaving. And the basketball auto-bid problem. But if some time passed and there were successful upgrades in the region at a JMU, Delaware, GA St, Charlotte, etc, then perhaps then, 10 years from now, a new conference could form with Temple being included.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Would the BC administration really care if they aren't competitive in the ACC as long as they are bringing in loads more money than they would if they were in the BE???

Northwestern often talks about scheduling games against "like minded universities" in football in scheduling Vanderbilt and Duke and others recently. Which leads to questions of them leaving the Big Ten. That will never happen because Northwestern likes the money they make by being in the Big Ten.

Anyways...with the likely shake up of FBS conferences on the near horizon. How will this affect the FCS? I've heard stories of a 12 schools per league, 8 league FCS with the MAC, Conference USA and Sun Belt moving to FCS route. Would we then see FCS do a similar move with some FCS conferences going D2? Or possibly an FCS-A and FCS-AA???

Was just talking to someone the other day about Northwestern and the Ivy League rumors back in the 90's. Fast forward to 2009 and NU makes $20 million a year in TV revenue. Trying to get into the Ivy League is dead in the water on the NU side now when you've got that cash.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

I can't even begin to tell you how much I disagree with this. First of all, Penn State will mop the floor with Rutgers if last year is any indication. I realize the competitive gap is not THAT wide anymore, but there undoubtedly is a gap (and Rutgers is 2-22 lifetime vs. the Nittaninnies, and only winning ONCE since World War I). But Penn State and Rutgers are not even that similar in terms of institutions. Sure, both are very good academically, but Rutgers sports never have been a religion like Penn State. If anything, Rutgers lives in their Big East basketball rivalries more than anything else, whereas Penn State is first and foremost a football school.

Syracuse is a bit different, since they're the flagship athletic program of New York State and at least have some sort of history playing Penn State in football. But they've only beaten Penn State three times since 1970, too - and they've long since made football a back seat sport to basketball, too. There's just nothing really there to suggest that it will be a true "rivalry".

SU and RU, if they join the Big 10, would really be making the same mistake BC made - cheapening their overall product in order to cash a large check in one or two sports. For some folks, that's all it's about: but the real loser is the fans.

My thoughts run once again, though, to this "Big 10 Network" model of revenue. This model *will* die - it could take a while, but it *will* die. If conferences are counting on this to be the driver of revenue - or major networks, for that matter - there's going to be a BCS crisis someday. When I don't know, but it will happen.

Your missing the most obvious point: recruiting impact. If Rutgers were in the Big Ten, the players they'd be able to recruit would be much better than they can in the Big East. Look at USF: in CUSA they had average recruits. Once they were in the Big East, the quality of level increased.

The other point is more about semantics. You're view of a rivalry is different than others. Rivalries can just as easily be based on similarities off the field by the fanbases versus an even matchup on the field. Rivalries are often formed through regular games against each other. There are ample instances of national rivalries where one team has won virtually all games over the past 10-20 years. Yet the label "rivalry" still exists. By your definition, Ohio St. and Michigan are hardly rivals since Ohio St. has gone 8-1 vs Michigan the past 10 years. Notre Dame went 12-0-1 vs USC from '83 to '95. Did that end as a rivalry then? (and yup, USC is 8-0 since 2002)

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Actually, you need to look at your football history. Penn State (I'm a JMU and Penn State alum) had very little in common with the Big Ten, outside of being a football school and huge state U, before joining. They had played Ohio State and Michigan infrequently, in fact Penn State had more in common with the Big East due to existing rivalries with WVU, Pitt and Syracuse. The Nittany Lions have played Syracuse 70 times, WVU 57 and Pitt 96. Hell, they've even played Rutgers 24 times (more than they have played Michigan btw). And yet, PSU has fit nicely into the Big Ten by all accounts. I see no reason as to why Syracuse, Rutgers, Pitt or even WVU wouldn't be able to fit nicely as well. So, the two schools becoming eastern outposts with no rivalry in conference is just wrong. Hell, Syracuse or Pitt would fit in better than Indiana, NW and Purdue.

And as for Temple to the Big East, I stand by statement that it is a pipe dream. Why would the Big East go back to a failure. Temple may be "rising" as in they've had one winning season in nearly 20 years, but they are still a sub-.500 football team all time. Golden will bolt given a better opportunity and they can return to mediocrity. Hell, they may return to that next season. Philly doesn't care about college football. They haven't cared, ever to my knowledge. Well, maybe back when Penn was still considered FBS. The Big East will look elsewhere. Bank on it.

Great points RE: Penn st.

As for Temple, I do agree. I just think it's important to realize that the Big East that would ever invite Temple would not be the same product that you are seeing today, which is a far drop from the product back in 2002. IF the Big East HAD to look at a Temple, it means that a northeast based football conference is on life-support and desperately looking for members. Their only carrot would be their current BCS affiliation, which might be in jeopardy if they were to lose some of the current members. The one strength is that the programs that are considered the top candidates to leave for other conferences (Rutgers, Syracuse, Uconn, Pitt) are not necessarily the best football programs right now. But yes, if the Big East were to look at Temple, it means they've hit rock-bottom. I think we can all agree on that. But who would have thought that the replacements for national powers Miami and VA Tech would be Cincinnati and Louisville.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Since 1970, Penn State is a combined 36-4 against both Syracuse and Rutgers. Forgive me, but to me a rivalry involves actually beating the other team more than twice each decade.

Back to my point above. By your definition, Ohio St. and Michigan are not rivals anymore. Nor are USC and Notre Dame. That's fine if it's your opinion on what defines a "rivalry". I think it's good that we got the semantics out of the way so that we aren't opposing in opinions about something, when it's the core definition of "rivalry" that is the real issue.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Perhaps, but that doesn't diminish that there is a history of a rivalry that has been in existence for nearly 100 years. Ask PSU alums who graduated before the Big Ten era and Syracuse will be listed as an old rival. Your earlier statement indicated that a school like Syracuse wouldn't fit in because of the lack of history. Well, you're wrong. PSU has a long history with Syracuse and Pitt. Both would fit in nicely as well as Rutgers.

As an alum, I prefer Syracuse over Pitt. The Pitt grads are going to hammer me for this but they add nothing. It isn't like the Big Ten is suffering in western PA and eastern Ohio. If you are looking to expand, you look to increase your revenue and foot print. The only reason Pitt would be invited is if political pressure comes into play, ala Virginia Tech to the ACC. Remember, Tech wasn't a part of the expansion because it didn't make sense with Virginia and Maryland already there. The ACC screwed themselves in my opinion by passing on Syracuse. Syracuse would have fit in better with BC, but instead VA governor applies pressure to UVA to get Tech an invite they didn't need but desperately wanted so they could feel better about themselves.

xsmileyclapx Excellent post.


And I agree about the ACC. Virginia Tech has been an EXCELLENT ACC member, there's no argument there. But for the ACC product, I think they dropped the ball by not putting the fork in the Big East. Adding Syracuse and BC would have given the ACC two of the top D1 brands in the northeast. Instead, they have only 1 with BC. But the ACc suffers by not having a strong hold on the region. Instead, the Big East still holds the overall region and the Big Ten has it's hold due to Penn St. It's why I think if the Big Ten moves further east, that the ACC might be wise to secure it's brand by expanding to 14...something that seems inconceivable based on the current economics. An ACC "North" of BC along with 2 from Syracuse, Rutgers, Pitt and Uconn...and then Maryland, UVA, VA Tech and Miami would essentially create the northeast football league (albeit a division) that many such as JoPa wanted originally...just this one would be sans PSU.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I'll buy whoever is left on this board a round of beers for posting a link saying at anytime in the future that the Big East & Temple are talking about conference affiliation. Believe me, it'd help TU's program, but you guys are in a parallel universe. The Big East came really close to killing the TU football program, there's no itch to re-scratch.

So what do you believe will happen? Do believe Temple will move to the MAC as an all sports member? Be allowed to maintain their associate status? Move to CUSA? Move in to another conference that hasn't been formed yet?

If the MAC forced Temple's hand and said either you're all in or all out then what happens assuming we don't have another viable option for football? If it came to that i would rather Temple drop down to FCS or drop the program all together instead of taking our basketball program to the MAC.

Do you believe the Eagle's will renew TU's lease at the Linc if we're playing football in the MAC? I don't.....
Maybe that's why there has been some different discussions regarding an on campus facility?

[BearsCountry]

You bring up an excellent point. The eastern CUSA schools have had some resentment towards the new look of CUSA, being Texascentric. There have been rumblings of the eastern teams preferring a more eastern conferences...but it's mostly smoke to cover up the obvious desire by Memphis, ECU, UCF and Marshall to be in the Big East rather than CUSA. Unfortunately for the CUSA-East4, there aren't enough high quality programs in the region to justify leaving. And the basketball auto-bid problem. But if some time passed and there were successful upgrades in the region at a JMU, Delaware, GA St, Charlotte, etc, then perhaps then, 10 years from now, a new conference could form with Temple being included.

You mean East Carolina isn't happy being with the Texas schools. Marshall is tickled to death not to be in the MAC. Memphis wants to be in the BE but remember they tried to get in the SWC back in the 90's.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Indeed. Conferences change. CUSA is still a step up from the MAC...especially when it had Cincy, Louisville, USF, DePaul, Marquette, St. Louis and Charlotte. Memphis had hired Tranghese as a consultant to help their chances for the Big East. The 3 east schools of Memphis, ECU and UCF don't all just want to be in...they are just on the outside of being able to get in. Marshall on the other hand is not in such a position. I'm sure Memphis would prefer to be in the SEC or Big 12 now. But the Big East is the only conference that might have "room".

[bluehenbillk]

Lehigh TU, what do I think will happen? I think TU will stay their current course until they're hands are forced and I don't see that changing.

What traction does/would the MAC have to try to force TU's hand? There are no MAC teams that any BCS leagues would target. TU certainly is happy with the A-10 for hoops, even if their hoops TV contract blows.

I agree. I don't see them playing long-term at the Linc. They have a terrible rent deal and Banner and the boys aren't big on charity.

All that being said, they had a great year, sans the Ohio game. They should hope Golden stays for a while, hasn't been optimism on N Broad since Wayne Hardin.

[MplsBison]

Indeed. Conferences change. CUSA is still a step up from the MAC...especially when it had Cincy, Louisville, USF, DePaul, Marquette, St. Louis and Charlotte. Memphis had hired Tranghese as a consultant to help their chances for the Big East. The 3 east schools of Memphis, ECU and UCF don't all just want to be in...they are just on the outside of being able to get in. Marshall on the other hand is not in such a position. I'm sure Memphis would prefer to be in the SEC or Big 12 now. But the Big East is the only conference that might have "room".

But after the Big Ten and ACC take the Big East's historical BCS football programs, will the BE football conference be anything more than a glorified CUSA?

[JMUNJ08]

But after the Big Ten and ACC take the Big East's historical BCS football programs, will the BE football conference be anything more than a glorified CUSA?

Quite simply no if the proverbial bubble does burst.

Only a few more months til the carnage. xhurrayx Just stay put JMU! xprayx

[MplsBison]

I don't think a bubble needs to burst.

It could very well be that the Big Ten adds Notre Dame, Syracuse and Rutgers.


In that scenario, it's not at all unlikely that the BT Network could see upwards of 30+ million new cable TV subscribers who have access to the channel on their basic tier.


Then the ACC swoops in and takes UConn, Pitt and WV, thank you very much and have a nice day.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't think a bubble needs to burst.

It could very well be that the Big Ten adds Notre Dame, Syracuse and Rutgers.


In that scenario, it's not at all unlikely that the BT Network could see upwards of 30+ million new cable TV subscribers who have access to the channel on their basic tier.


Then the ACC swoops in and takes UConn, Pitt and WV, thank you very much and have a nice day.

The BTN is already on the basic tier on all the major cable companies in Pennsy, thanks to Penn State. (There may be ahandful of stragglers.) Time Warner Cable in upstate NY would add it, I guess - but there's zero guarantee that this would be a ratings slam-dunk in NYC. Oh by the way BTN is already on the basic tier nationally, too, on Verizon FIOS as well.

[MplsBison]

The BTN is already on the basic tier on all the major cable companies in Pennsy, thanks to Penn State. (There may be ahandful of stragglers.) Time Warner Cable in upstate NY would add it, I guess - but there's zero guarantee that this would be a ratings slam-dunk in NYC. Oh by the way BTN is already on the basic tier nationally, too, on Verizon FIOS as well.

Right, as I understand it the BTN's negotiating protocol is to work to get the BTN on the basic tier of all cable networks in any state that a BT school is located.

Not sure how that works for Notre Dame though...Maybe they try to work over Boston, NYC, etc.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

But after the Big Ten and ACC take the Big East's historical BCS football programs, will the BE football conference be anything more than a glorified CUSA?

Precisely. All of a sudden the Big East football schools will look like the Metro, only with WVU and perhaps others involved. It will be interesting if 2 teams leave the Big East. If it were 1, perhaps the basketball school allow Memphis in as a replacement since basketball would benefit. But if it's 2 schools leaving, perhaps that basketball schools put the kibosh on Big East football/all-sport members. They'd have the votes to say "associate members only for football".

[rufus]

Quite simply no if the proverbial bubble does burst.

Only a few more months til the carnage. xhurrayx Just stay put JMU! xprayx

I wouldn't want JMU to stay put simply for the sake of staying put. If the right opportunity presents itself, JMU should move to FBS during this shake up. If only the Sun Belt comes knocking on our door, JMU should stay right where it is. I know some JMU fans don't like it, but the move to FBS is a question of when rather than if. The administration will be watching this shake up closely to see if an opportunity presents itself. If not, JMU will likely continue to pursue the possibility of moving to FBS with other CAA schools and similar FCS institutions.

[AppMan]

Which other CAA schools could make the jump to FBS? ODU looks to be a possibility, but how is their budget situation having just added football? Delaware has a war chest few can match, so it would appear they could make the transition easily, if the alumni can convince the administration. Other than those I don't see anyone else remotely close to being ready. ASU and Charlotte offer the best possible partners for JMU, with Liberty possibly tossed in as well. But, the Charlotte folks think they are destined for the Big East, but that ain't happening.

[DFW HOYA]

Honestly, Tech fits better in the SEC than the ACC.

Georgia Tech, that is.

[MplsBison]

Georgia Tech, that is.

I wonder if the SEC would try to take Florida State and Georgia Tech from the ACC, instead of taking Big XII or Big East schools?

Then the ACC would take 4 from the Big East (say UConn, Pitt, West Virginia and Syracuse, with Big Ten taking Rutgers).

[DFW HOYA]

I wonder if the SEC would try to take Florida State and Georgia Tech from the ACC, instead of taking Big XII or Big East schools?

Then the ACC would take 4 from the Big East (say UConn, Pitt, West Virginia and Syracuse, with Big Ten taking Rutgers).

I think the old guard at the ACC would rather have the old eight team setup back and play the Big East in a title game every year rather than go to 16. Nothing says "ACC basketball" like Boston College...

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I think the old guard at the ACC would rather have the old eight team setup back and play the Big East in a title game every year rather than go to 16. Nothing says "ACC basketball" like Boston College...

That's just about what they could end up with in a 16 team league if they so desired!

ACC Purebloods: Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, Duke, NC State, Clemson, GA Tech, Wake Forest

ACC Red Headed Stepchildren: BC, UConn, Syracuse, Pitt, West Virginia, VA Tech, Miami, FL State

Still have a championship game, control all the revenue, destroy a rival league (well the parochial basketball schools would just bond together under the Big East banner, but they're not a threat to the football money), cover every major media market from Boston to Miami (well UConn and Syracuse do somewhat cover NYC, probably bring that as much as Rutgers would), etc.

It's an interesting concept. And demonstrates how sad it was that football wasn't the driving force for conference affiliation in the Northeast! Penn State, Pitt, WV, Rutgers, BC, UConn, and Syracuse should all be in the same all sports league. Temple and Buffalo make sense and could have rounded out that league. xtwocentsx Unfortunately UConn and Buffalo weren't playing FBS/I-A football when Penn State was trying to form an Eastern football league. And Villanova, Colgate, Holy Cross and others were no longer playing "major" football either.

[DFW HOYA]

ACC Purebloods: Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, Duke, NC State, Clemson, GA Tech, Wake Forest

ACC Red Headed Stepchildren: BC, UConn, Syracuse, Pitt, West Virginia, VA Tech, Miami, FL State



Georgia Tech is not a pureblood, having been an SEC (and Metro Conference) expatriate. If they really want to go old school, trade GT for founding ACC member South Carolina.

[Jackman]

Which other CAA schools could make the jump to FBS? ODU looks to be a possibility, but how is their budget situation having just added football? Delaware has a war chest few can match, so it would appear they could make the transition easily, if the alumni can convince the administration. Other than those I don't see anyone else remotely close to being ready. ASU and Charlotte offer the best possible partners for JMU, with Liberty possibly tossed in as well. But, the Charlotte folks think they are destined for the Big East, but that ain't happening.

The Big East will no longer exist by the time Charlotte is ready to move.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Georgia Tech is not a pureblood, having been an SEC (and Metro Conference) expatriate. If they really want to go old school, trade GT for founding ACC member South Carolina.

South Carolina left, by their own choice, a long, long time ago, early 70's IIRC. Most people today don't even know that South Carolina was an ACC school. They've never given any indication that they'd prefer to be in the ACC, even with the in-state rivalry with Clemson it would bring. Therefore, in my mind the only old time ACC that can be reverted to is one with Georgia Tech. That's the eight team league that many desire to return to. Frankly, in today's environment that ship has sailed. xtwocentsx

[49RFootballNow]

The Big East will no longer exist by the time Charlotte is ready to move.

And if it does exist it many not be a BCS conference anymore, or even sponsor football.xcoffeex

[MplsBison]

I think the old guard at the ACC would rather have the old eight team setup back and play the Big East in a title game every year rather than go to 16. Nothing says "ACC basketball" like Boston College...

They would be going to 14, not 16, if they lost 2 to the SEC, which would then be at 14.


I will be interested to see if 14 will be the new 12? Or will everyone be going for 12 and stopping?

All comes down to money, I guess.

[Lamar Cardinals 2010]

Quinn instead of posting 1000 times on here trying to explain expansion 101 to expansion novices just post a link to your site with the threads. With a side not of what posters know what's going on (freaked, quinn, fsa, tute, etc..) a lot of them know how it works.

http://collegesportsinfo.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=13&sid=f11524ce6764f11f247d0ddde3a603a9

[AppMan]

The Big East will no longer exist by the time Charlotte is ready to move.

Have a good friend in athletics administration at a Big East school and it is his belief the BE landscape will be vastly different in a few years. I think there will be a Big East, it just won't be as BIG as it is now.

[MplsBison]

There will be a Big East, certainly.

It will be a catholic bball conference.

[DFW HOYA]

There will be a Big East, certainly.

It will be a catholic bball conference.

Let's hope it's something mroe than that, else Georgetown and Villanova will be playing elsewhere.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

There will be a Big East, certainly.

It will be a catholic bball conference.


Let's hope it's something mroe than that, else Georgetown and Villanova will be playing elsewhere.

Where? xconfusedx Unless they upgrade their football, I doubt the "fallout league" from the BE would want them. It's going to be an all sports league with FBS Football. The ACC won't be interested. Wouldn't this Parochial Big East be the highest level hoop, all sports league without football available to both schools? What other league might evolve that would be more to Georgetown's liking? xconfusedx They could continue to play football in the Patriot or go to the Pioneer without impacting their all sports affiliation.

Now I'm not a fan of UConn by any means, but they recognized that having FBS football would keep them in the mix with big time basketball schools when/if the next round of re-alignment occurred. Their name is in the mix of all the Big 10 and ACC expansion rumors. If the BC$ continues their power move, the Sled Dogs will be part of it because they play FBS Football. Those schools don't want to share the money with anybody but the other schools that play big time hoop AND football. xtwocentsx

[DFW HOYA]

This is a point I make to people who assume Georgetown and Villanova are run just like PC, Seton Hall, etc.: GU and Nova spend a lot more money than do these schools and run more comprehensive athletic programs (Georgetown 29 sports, Villanova 24). By contrast, St. John's, Seton Hall, DePaul and Marquette run at or near the NCAA minumum of 14 programs, and Seton Hall has recently announced it is scaling back as well. These schools could theoretically play basketball together but the other sports may not have enough teams to form coherent leagues -- baseball, track, lacrosse, swimming, etc,. would all be under the minimum required to receive an autobid.

Schools look at conference affilaitions to house all its sports, not one or two, which is one of the reasons ND was confortable moving to the Big East. Their sports outside of FB used to be scattered across all sorts of conferences years ago and never got any traction.

And could we drop the Pioneer talk? Georgetown has no interest in the PFL.

[CFBfan]

This is a point I make to people who assume Georgetown and Villanova are run just like PC, Seton Hall, etc.: GU and Nova spend a lot more money than do these schools and run more comprehensive athletic programs (Georgetown 29 sports, Villanova 24). By contrast, St. John's, Seton Hall, DePaul and Marquette run at or near the NCAA minumum of 14 programs, and Seton Hall has recently announced it is scaling back as well. These schools could theoretically play basketball together but the other sports may not have enough teams to form coherent leagues -- baseball, track, lacrosse, swimming, etc,. would all be under the minimum required to receive an autobid.

Schools look at conference affilaitions to house all its sports, not one or two, which is one of the reasons ND was confortable moving to the Big East. Their sports outside of FB used to be scattered across all sorts of conferences years ago and never got any traction.

And could we drop the Pioneer talk? Georgetown has no interest in the PFL.

DFW, I understand that GU is not looking at the PFL for football BUT, if the PL does go to schollies and gives GU the boot, where else are they going to go? And, picking up NDSU isn't exactly a move that makes a lot of sense.....

[Bogus Megapardus]

gives GU the boot

The Patriot League cannot and would not "give GU the boot." Georgetown could resign its membership, but it cannot be kicked out. Nor would the PL ever consider such a thing.

[CFBfan]

The Patriot League cannot and would not "give GU the boot." Georgetown could resign its membership, but it cannot be kicked out. Nor would the PL ever consider such a thing.

got it, thanks. am earlier post presented this scenario and I was not sure.

[DFW HOYA]

See the thread linked below for a clause in the PL handbook which would give the league the ability to kick either Fordham or Georgetown out on 30 days notice; practically speaking, it would have a chilling effect on any future associate member ever considering the league again.

If Georgetown wasn't in the PL, the NEC would be in play, or being an independent a less tenable one.

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?t=68819&page=8

[MplsBison]

Let's hope it's something mroe than that, else Georgetown and Villanova will be playing elsewhere.

Allow me to correct you:

"Let's hope it's something more than that, else Georgetown and Villanova non-standard sports will be playing elsewhere.


Boo hoo...the rowing team! xcoffeex

[Redwyn]

Allow me to correct you:

"Let's hope it's something more than that, else Georgetown and Villanova non-standard sports will be playing elsewhere.


Boo hoo...the rowing team! xcoffeex

I really think you underestimate how much of a prestige sport rowing is. You'd be surprised how much a reputation improves if rowing does well.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I really think you underestimate how much of a prestige sport rowing is. You'd be surprised how much a reputation improves if rowing does well.

xlolx MIT rowing = joined PL this year. What a bonanza!

[Jackman]

It always comes back to emulating the Ivies.

Not to hijack the discussion, but why is a conference affiliation necessary for rowing, particularly in the Northeast? Out of 17 events on UMass's schedule, I think only 1 is linked to our conference. MIT can't find anyone who wants to row on the Charles?

[Bogus Megapardus]

It always comes back to emulating the Ivies.

Not to hijack the discussion, but why is a conference affiliation necessary for rowing, particularly in the Northeast? Out of 17 events on UMass's schedule, I think only 1 is linked to our conference. MIT can't find anyone who wants to row on the Charles?

It was tongue-in-cheek, son. Calm down. Rowing is good for one thing - you can put 127 students on the women's rowing team (like some schools do) and satisfy Title IX.

[MplsBison]

I really think you underestimate how much of a prestige sport rowing is. You'd be surprised how much a reputation improves if rowing does well.

The point is that if your athletic department doesn't have football, then men's bball is your marquee sport and everything else is...well....everything else. Especially in the northeast, where sports like baseball, golf, swimming, etc. are there to more or less just fill out NCAA requirements.

If you have a conference for bball, vball, etc. then you have nothing to complain about, like DFW is trying.

Cut some sports if it's such a pain in the rear. Schools have no good reason to be sponsoring 50 sports any more. That's another old tradition that needs to be cut.

[Sader87]

It was tongue-in-cheek, son. Calm down. Rowing is good for one thing - you can put 127 students on the women's rowing team (like some schools do) and satisfy Title IX.

Do you think the MIT move to the PL is connected to the PL going scholarship in football? That would be fabulous.

[DFW HOYA]

Cut some sports if it's such a pain in the rear. Schools have no good reason to be sponsoring 50 sports any more. That's another old tradition that needs to be cut.

No one sponsors 50 sports, but the number of sports that a school participates in is a criterion for NCAA divisional membership. However, too many schools skate by on the minimum (six men's sports, eight women's) in an attempt to gain all the benefits of Division I membership without providing a broad-based program.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Colleges sponsor sports for many different reasons. Some colleges sponsor football and basketball to make money, and sponsor other sports only because they "have to." Others do so to attract a broad range of students and to enhance the overall student experience, regardless of income.

[MplsBison]

No one sponsors 50 sports, but the number of sports that a school participates in is a criterion for NCAA divisional membership. However, too many schools skate by on the minimum (six men's sports, eight women's) in an attempt to gain all the benefits of Division I membership without providing a broad-based program.

That's exactly the wrong attitude for most DI athletic departments. Most DI schools can't afford to sponsor more than the NCAA minimum number of sports.


The "benefit" to being DI is men's bball and football. That's it. Those are the only sports in the entirety of the NCAA that make significant profits.

[MplsBison]

Colleges sponsor sports for many different reasons. Some colleges sponsor football and basketball to make money, and sponsor other sports only because they "have to." Others do so to attract a broad range of students and to enhance the overall student experience, regardless of income.

How does having men's golf and rowing enhance student experience? Other than for the members of those teams?

[slostang]

That's exactly the wrong attitude for most DI athletic departments. Most DI schools can't afford to sponsor more than the NCAA minimum number of sports.


The "benefit" to being DI is men's bball and football. That's it. Those are the only sports in the entirety of the NCAA that make significant profits.

I bet you Tenn. women's basketball makes money. I would bet Iowa wrestling makes money.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I bet you Tenn. women's basketball makes money. I would bet Iowa wrestling makes money.

So does hockey at Northeastern and wrestling at Lehigh and lacrosse at Johns Hopkins and Maryland, but I'm not sure that's the point. I'm saying that colleges have athletic teams for reasons other than as a direct money-making proposition.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No one sponsors 50 sports, but the number of sports that a school participates in is a criterion for NCAA divisional membership. However, too many schools skate by on the minimum (six men's sports, eight women's) in an attempt to gain all the benefits of Division I membership without providing a broad-based program.

Worthy of mention is that the NCAA most certainly does not want more teams like NJIT, SUI-E and others who barely made the minimum sports requirement, they want more broad-based sports programs. So this NCAA requirement may be a part of the new "definition of Division I" that might cause a St. John's or Seton Hall to get booted from D-I. In that way, G'Town and Villanova are much more likely to survive in D-I than some of these other tiny schools.

[UAalum72]

Current requirements are eight sports in D-III, ten in D-II, fourteen in FCS and 16 in FBS, with at least one team sport for each gender in all three seasons. If there's any increase it will probably be for FBS.

[DFW HOYA]

If the NCAA really wants to upset the apple cart, then it would make football a required sport for membership in Division I. But in theory a school could have 14 sports with neither football nor basketball and be a member.

And for those who would ask "Why would a school not have basketball?", this was actually the case at a school like Miami (it only started back its program in 1988) as well as teams dropped for a time in the 1980's at San Francisco and Tulane.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If the NCAA really wants to upset the apple cart, then it would make football a required sport for membership in Division I. But in theory a school could have 14 sports with neither football nor basketball and be a member.

And for those who would ask "Why would a school not have basketball?", this was actually the case at a school like Miami (it only started back its program in 1988) as well as teams dropped for a time in the 1980's at San Francisco and Tulane.

That would be ****ed interesting. Overnight you'd see a resurgence in the "non-scholarship MAAC/PFL model" of D-I non-scholarship football if that were the case. The MAAC would almost certainly come back into existence, with a slew of A-10 schools rejoining as affiliates.

(And MplsBison's head would explode... :p )

Something like that would also most likely cause a fundamental rethink of all of D-I football. You could see 3 or more subdivisions: BCS (bowls), FCS (scholarship playoff football, but also including the MAC and Sun Belt, perhaps) and FNS (Football Nonscholarship subdivision, with the PFL/MAAC/new Atlantic Sun and any other new non-scholarship FB league). The Ivy would be forced to either join the FCS playoffs or be content being FNS and not playing any postseason.

In conjunction with this would be what is done with schools without conference affiliation in one or more sports. Notre Dame would probably be forced to join the Big East or Big 10. Army and Navy would be a much more interesting situation: maybe affiliate membership in C-USA, and PL in all other sports?

[MplsBison]

That would be ****ed interesting. Overnight you'd see a resurgence in the "non-scholarship MAAC/PFL model" of D-I non-scholarship football if that were the case. The MAAC would almost certainly come back into existence, with a slew of A-10 schools rejoining as affiliates.

(And MplsBison's head would explode... :p )

Something like that would also most likely cause a fundamental rethink of all of D-I football. You could see 3 or more subdivisions: BCS (bowls), FCS (scholarship playoff football, but also including the MAC and Sun Belt, perhaps) and FNS (Football Nonscholarship subdivision, with the PFL/MAAC/new Atlantic Sun and any other new non-scholarship FB league). The Ivy would be forced to either join the FCS playoffs or be content being FNS and not playing any postseason.

They should be doing that now, with scholarship minimums for FCS and FBS.