Ivies cutting squads again?

[RichH2]

Seems , according to rumor ,that Ivy league is limiting football to 25 recruits per year over a 4yr rolling average. True? This would be the 2nd cutback in the last few years.

I wonder how this will impact on pending PL merit aid decision?xconfusedx

[colorless raider]

Sounds like a back room deal to me.xbawlingx

[Jackman]

Makes sense. They're only putting on a show for themselves at this point.

[CopperCat]

Makes sense. They're only putting on a show for themselves at this point.

Which brings us to this point: why in the *&$# do the basketball teams get to go to the big dance and the football teams get screwed out of the playoffs? The Ivies have put up some great teams in recent years, and probably could have done some damage. Maybe this has been discussed before, but if I'm a football player at Harvard watching the NCAA tourney where Cornell is getting in, I'm pissed.

[DFW HOYA]

Which brings us to this point: why in the *&$# do the basketball teams get to go to the big dance and the football teams get screwed out of the playoffs?

Hint: "The Game"...

[Bogus Megapardus]

Hint: "The Game"...

H-Y must be the pinnacle? Post season would detract from its importance? The other six must pay that price for continued franchise rights to the Ivy brand name?

xeyebrowx

[kdinva]

That's just that many fewer young men who won't get a chance for the 1-AA playoffs.xviolinx

[ngineer]

You know the 'academics'...It's always "the principle" of the thing, until of course it no longer fits within their mantra...We've been down this road so many times regarding the hypocracy of it all.

[EastCoast]

What the Ivies need is for their admissions officers, and Ivy rules, to let in players that can play.

It doesn't matter whether it's 25, 30 or 35 per year. Just let them get in some of the recruits that look like they can play.

They don't need the high-board, high-gpa guys that can probably get in on their own. This does litttle good. They need the tough kids, and athletic kids, who can play and make a difference.

If this is going to be the new rule, hopefully the conference and their presidents/admission officers have agreed that they'll let in my potential impact players.

[bonarae]

xnonono2x that's all I can say at this point.

[Bogus Megapardus]

What the Ivies need is for their admissions officers, and Ivy rules, to let in players that can play.

It doesn't matter whether it's 25, 30 or 35 per year. Just let them get in some of the recruits that look like they can play.

They don't need the high-board, high-gpa guys that can probably get in on their own. This does litttle good. They need the tough kids, and athletic kids, who can play and make a difference.

If this is going to be the new rule, hopefully the conference and their presidents/admission officers have agreed that they'll let in my potential impact players.

This won't happen, nor should it. The league should maintain its academic index and it should not change its admission policies for athletes. To do otherwise would presuppose that athletes, as a rule, are less academically qualified than are non-athletes. Not true. "High GPA" and "tough" are not mutually exclusive; this has been shown time and time again. All Ivy League players are guys who can "get in on their own." True, some athletes won't qualify for Ivy admission, just as some non-athletes won't. At the Ivy colleges, athletes are (in theory) representative of the student body as a whole. This will never change.

The top Ivies play much better football than most people think. Competitiveness is not their issue.

At issue is the league-wide prohibition on post-season play for football in the Ivy League. The justification for the rule is that post-season play might negatively impact final exams. But the league permits all other teams to participate in post-season play (you will see Cornell in the field of 64, for example) and it is generally thought that virtually all of the players wish to participate. This is where the Ivy way runs afoul of sensibility.

Regarding the rumor that the league might limit members to 25 recruits per year - If true, this sounds to me like an appeasement to Ivies whose name do not begin with H, Y or P, as a method of balancing competitiveness internally. Then again, at an Ivy school, it might be impossible to distinguish between a "recruit" and a "preferred walk-on." The line is fuzzy and the rule might prove unworkable.

Finally, the Ivies are rumored to be populated by some resourceful and analytical people. If there is a generally accepted notion that participation in the FCS post-season would operate to the detriment of the sanctity of the "The Game," one would imagine they would have some data to support that. "Guessing" is not their strong suit.

[DetroitFlyer]

This won't happen, nor should it. The league should maintain its academic index and it should not change its admission policies for athletes. To do otherwise would presuppose that athletes, as a rule, are less academically qualified than are non-athletes. Not true. "High GPA" and "tough" are not mutually exclusive; this has been shown time and time again. All Ivy League players are guys who can "get in on their own." True, some athletes won't qualify for Ivy admission, just as some non-athletes won't. At the Ivy colleges, athletes are (in theory) representative of the student body as a whole. This will never change.

The top Ivies play much better football than most people think. Competitiveness is not their issue.

At issue is the league-wide prohibition on post-season play for football in the Ivy League. The justification for the rule is that post-season play might negatively impact final exams. But the league permits all other teams to participate in post-season play (you will see Cornell in the field of 64, for example) and it is generally thought that virtually all of the players wish to participate. This is where the Ivy way runs afoul of sensibility.

Regarding the rumor that the league might limit members to 25 recruits per year - If true, this sounds to me like an appeasement to Ivies whose name do not begin with H, Y or P, as a method of balancing competitiveness internally. Then again, at an Ivy school, it might be impossible to distinguish between a "recruit" and a "preferred walk-on." The line is fuzzy and the rule might prove unworkable.

Finally, the Ivies are rumored to be populated by some resourceful and analytical people. If there is a generally accepted notion that participation in the FCS post-season would operate to the detriment of the sanctity of the "The Game," one would imagine they would have some data to support that. "Guessing" is not their strong suit.

Dayton has "preferred" walk-ons every year. Basically, they are kids that want to play football at Dayton but they were not actively recruited. As with most schools, there are always kids from this group that end up making the team and becoming very good players. I also believe that the Ivy League has it niche in recruiting. An Ivy League type player is not going to accept a full ride to go and play at Montana.... They WANT to go to an Ivy League school. Dayton has been pursuing top students that play football for years. I think we have a niche that allows us to get kids either just below the Ivy or PL OR kids with those kind of grades that want to play closer to home. For example, he is a summary on a recruit in this year's Dayton class. Check out this GPA and ACT score. I'm guessing that his GPA is Ivy/PL level, while his ACT while very good may be just a tad bit low.... AND, I think this kid and his family wanted to play closer to home. It is also highly likely, although I do not know for certain, that he is Catholic. Any way, check this out:

http://www.maxpreps.com/athletes/YA8OHUuRBEyLpfsIal6UFA/football-fall-09/athlete_notes-chris-cortopassi.htm

Lemming Notes: He is a competitive, tough, and aggressive high school LT. On Film–This guy plays hard until the whistle, never lets up, keeps his legs moving at all times, and has the athletic ability and burst to effectively block out on the second level. His size may dictate a move to either guard or center in college. He can dominate at times, particularly if you watch the Naperville Central game in which he graded out at 93% and recorded 8 pancake blocks. Stats–For the year he earned 1st Team All-Conference honors at LT. Other Sports–He has thrown the shot put 51' 7" and the discus 152' 8" in track. Grades–His GPA is 4.9 on a 5.0 scale and he scored a 29 on the ACT. Benches 225 19 times and has a 21" VJ. Favorite Schools–NORTHERN IL, NORTHWESTERN, IA, IN, PURDUE, and MI STATE.

If you look at his "favorite" schools, it sure looks like he wanted to play within commuting distance for his family and friends. Given his academic profile, I'm betting that he got a great aid package from Dayton that would rival a full ride anywhere else.... Mr. Lemming sure seems to think this kid is "tough" and "can play".

What I have come to learn after following FCS recruiting the last few years is that all teams and conferences have their niche for recruiting. The top Ivy, PL or PFL teams DO land great football players that also happen to be great students. It is a good niche to recruit every year. I'm telling you, that MANY of these kids are not even going to consider a YSU, Northern Iowa, Eastern Kentucky and the list goes on, full ride or not.... AND, that is OK. It is one of the things that makes FCS kinda cool IMHO.

[DFW HOYA]

Good for Dayton, but I've found more often than not that coaches that are using Maxpreps or other services do so to get a prospect admitted to a school first, and football is means to do so whether they ever play or not. A lot of these kids will never get into a two-deep but can leverage athletics to get to somewhere they want to go. That 29 on the ACT will carry him farther than grading out at 93% in a game or some all-conference honors.

And, of course, don't mistake "Favorite Schools–NORTHERN IL, NORTHWESTERN, IA, IN, PURDUE, and MI STATE" with "offers". I-A schools do a very good job of working the talent pool so that most (not all, but most) of the best prospects stay at that level.

[DetroitFlyer]

Good for Dayton, but I've found more often than not that coaches that are using Maxpreps or other services do so to get a prospect admitted to a school first, and football is means to do so whether they ever play or not. A lot of these kids will never get into a two-deep but can leverage athletics to get to somewhere they want to go.

And, of course, don't mistake "Favorite Schools–NORTHERN IL, NORTHWESTERN, IA, IN, PURDUE, and MI STATE" with "offers".


My guess would be that at best, one of the FBS schools may have offered a preferred walk-on spot. Most likely, however, is that he did not have any firm FBS offers.... I do know that the recruiting coordinator at Northwestern is a former, star, Dayton QB. I think that often if he runs across a kid that is just a bit too slow, small, etc. for a Big Ten program, AND he has the grades to get into Northwestern, he sends them our way.... There is that niche thing again. I think that one thing that REALLY helps the PFL and Dayton in general is the lack of an AI. We may have just a bit more, (OK, a lot more), flexibility in offering aid to students that play football. A 3.3 kid with a 25 ACT for example just might be able to get a 25% to 50% ride at a PFL school, while a Georgetown or Cornell would not even give the student a sniff.... Again, maybe this is OK, as we all find our niche. Dayton provides financial aid to something like 90%+ of all students. It stands to reason that this would hold true for the students that happen to play football. Of course schools like Dayton, (and MANY other FCS schools), thrive with the kids that are too slow, too small, etc. I mean come on, our starting QB, Steve Valentino is something like 5' 10", 175 lbs. He has been All-PFL as both a wide receiver and a QB. He is absolutely one of the best athletes to ever play at Dayton. No way he would have gotten a shot at an FBS school out of high school. Again, this makes FCS kinda cool to me, you see kids that were overlooked by the FBS schools that absolutely thrive in the FCS environment. Another thing that helps SOME PFL schools, we redshirt almost every freshman. That makes a world of difference.... You bring in a kid that has a ton of potential, work with him for a year, allow him to learn the system, beef up a bit through strength training, etc. and then when he hit the field in his second year, he is a "real" FCS level player. By the time that kid plays his fifth year, he may be as good as anybody in FCS. Granted, there is no guarantee that the kid will come back for year five, but programs like Dayton enjoy a very high rate of fifth year players! Not every PFL school does this.... Davidson, for example does not allow redshirts and they do not have a graduate school. So it is very, very rare to see a 5th year player at Davidson.

I think success is a combination of finding and exploiting your recruiting niche and having high level coaching in place. Make no mistake what a great coach can do at a Ivy/PL or PFL school. Remember guys like Jim Harbaugh and Mike Kelly? Unfortunately, sometimes it is very hard to hold onto these guys, (Rob Ash), as they attract attention and money from other programs. Still, it is again part of what makes FCS interesting.

Speaking of good coaches, keep an eye on SFUP over the next few seasons.... Mark my words, they will be the shocker of the NEC and be a doormat no longer.... If Cal Poly is counting SFUP as an easy win, they too may be sorely disappointed.

Wow, enough for one post....

[Bogus Megapardus]

Another thing that helps SOME PFL schools, we redshirt almost every freshman . . . . Not every PFL school does this.... Davidson, for example does not allow redshirts and they do not have a graduate school. So it is very, very rare to see a 5th year player at Davidson.

Just a reminder - freshman redshirting is not allowed at any Ivy League or Patriot League school.

[Franks Tanks]

What the Ivies need is for their admissions officers, and Ivy rules, to let in players that can play.

It doesn't matter whether it's 25, 30 or 35 per year. Just let them get in some of the recruits that look like they can play.

They don't need the high-board, high-gpa guys that can probably get in on their own. This does litttle good. They need the tough kids, and athletic kids, who can play and make a difference.
If this is going to be the new rule, hopefully the conference and their presidents/admission officers have agreed that they'll let in my potential impact players.


If the Ivies followed your logic they would need to recruit 50 guys a year because all of those low GPA guys would flunk out in 2 semesters. They need to recruit smart kids because only smart kids will be able to handle the work and football. Why would they recruit a pile a guys who wont be in school, or be eligible to play? You cant major in Phys. Ed or Leisure Studies at an Ivy (except maybe Cornell xsmiley_wix)

[CFBfan]

What the Ivies need is for their admissions officers, and Ivy rules, to let in players that can play.

It doesn't matter whether it's 25, 30 or 35 per year. Just let them get in some of the recruits that look like they can play.

They don't need the high-board, high-gpa guys that can probably get in on their own. This does litttle good. They need the tough kids, and athletic kids, who can play and make a difference.

If this is going to be the new rule, hopefully the conference and their presidents/admission officers have agreed that they'll let in my potential impact players.

this is one of the most uninformed post I've read in a while

[DetroitFlyer]

Just a reminder - freshman redshirting is not allowed at any Ivy League or Patriot League school.


Not really sure that allowing freshman redshirts is much of a recruiting advantage.... I would have to think that the Ivy or PL could certainly tell recruits that they can play right away.... Again, I think that is OK. Maybe the freshman that the Ivy and PL recruit are closer to FCS ready players. The PFL can take kids that are borderline Division I and develop them into FCS players. Again, each league has it niche. It can work if everything comes together....

Truly though, at the end of the day, the PL and Ivy League really make it a challenge recruiting wise. The challenges that both leagues have really does allow the PFL to thrive by recruiting similar kids that may not meet all of the Ivy/PL requirements, but that are still great students and great football players. Not all bad really, as kids that want to go to Yale may not want to go to Campbell.... But, there certainly could be a great STUDENT/athlete from NC that does not want to play in the Northeast, far away from home, that might choose a Davidson or Campbell.... And in the PFL, you get to travel the entire country, not just bus rides around campus. So, you can play close to home AND enjoy playing in cities all over the USA. There is that niche thing again.

[EastCoast]

This won't happen, nor should it. The league should maintain its academic index and it should not change its admission policies for athletes. To do otherwise would presuppose that athletes, as a rule, are less academically qualified than are non-athletes. Not true. "High GPA" and "tough" are not mutually exclusive; this has been shown time and time again. All Ivy League players are guys who can "get in on their own." True, some athletes won't qualify for Ivy admission, just as some non-athletes won't. At the Ivy colleges, athletes are (in theory) representative of the student body as a whole. This will never change.

.


What you said is not accurate. By definition, the Academic Index allows lower admission standards for athletes. The AI is a formula that keeps the lower standards from dipping too low. It is just not true that football players of the Ivies are not, as a whole, less academically qualified than the rest of the student body. That is not to say that they are not qualified; they are just in the lower levels of qualifications. I don't have any problem with that, because other admitted student categories also receiver the same benefit. Thousands of applicants are technically qualified, but those on the lower end of qualification don't get accepted at the same rate as those on the upper ends of qualification.

Depending on the particular school, as of a number of years ago before the SAT's test scoring changed, recruits in the lowest AI band of the school could qualify if they had SAT's under 1100 and were in the top 10 or 15% of their class. Those states don't even come close to what it generally takes to get accepted at an Ivy school these.

Only recruits in the top, or top two, AI bands could or might be able to get accepted on their own.

It's true that high GPA and tough are not mutually exclusive, but it is equally true that there are alot more very good football players in the lower GPA category.

Once you get accepted at an Ivy, you don't have to be a genius to graduate, so long as you put in reasonable effort. High academic standards are not intended to weed out people who can't make it at an Ivy; they are intended to have an extremely high academically qualified student body. Of course, there are other criteria other than just high academic qualifications.

[EastCoast]

this is one of the most uninformed post I've read in a while

Actually, what I said came directly from 3 current or former head coaches in the Ivies.

Lowering the number of recruits will hurt JV programs and perhaps even put them in jeopardy. Most freshman get their first year experience playing at the JV level. Some non-frosh also get more experience by playing JV.

[CFBfan]

Actually, what I said came directly from 3 current or former head coaches in the Ivies.

Lowering the number of recruits will hurt JV programs and perhaps even put them in jeopardy. Most freshman get their first year experience playing at the JV level. Some non-frosh also get more experience by playing JV.


I wasn't referencing the number (25) allowed, just everything else.....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I know I'm probably in the minority here, but I think I understand why the IL does this.

Suppose you're a straight-A student and you're a raw QB that can throw 35 yards downfield across your body. Harvard and Columbia both want you. Columbia can guarantee you playing time right away - probably for 4 years. Harvard has two guys above you that can throw 60 yards downfield across their body, and there's no guarantee of playing time - but, hey, they're Harvard.

Who wins that battle? Harvard wins every time - and when you add in the generous aid package that Harvard would offer, it really becomes no contest. Might becoming "the man" at Columbia be worth it for a shot at the pros? Maybe, sure. But if you're going to the IL the NFL is probably not your only goal.

Folks don't realize how large Harvard is (and, to a slightly lesser extent, Yale and Princeton) compared to the other schools in the IL. No other league has these types of size (and aid) issues. In that light, squad size adjustments make a lot more sense. Why let the top three schools be allowed to stockpile players - who are probably getting the equivalent of a "full scholarship" or ****ed close, mind you - that could be playing elsewhere?

These types of decisions, IMO, are simply moves to try to stuff back in what jumped out of Pandora's box years earlier. The IL is to some degree paying for the decision of scrapping their "one Ivy" package years ago - meaning they were standardized for the entire league. (If you got into Harvard or Columbia, you got offered the same aid package, period.) Now with the "free market" going after football talent, Harvard almost always is at or near the top because they dominate the education market.

*****

As for the effect on the PL, like everything the IL does pretty much I don't think it was done with the PL in mind, only to deal with competitiveness issues within their own ranks. So the impact to the PL is probably minimal.

It's worth noting, however, that the best possible way for the "simply rich" (Dartmouth, Cornell, Columbia) to compete with the "ultra rich" (H-Y-P) would be fiendishly simple: to allow ColDCor to offer athletic scholarships. It would level the playing field with the schools that are so rich they can afford to scholarship everybody (which is in effect what happens).

So the squad limit issue is an effort to level the IL playing field. It won't work, however, and somehow the most logical solution - scholarships for ColDCor - will elude them.

[EastCoast]

I wasn't referencing the number (25) allowed, just everything else.....

The "everything else" is what came directly from the 3 coaches.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The "everything else" is what came directly from the 3 coaches.

I can't speak for the Ivy coaches, but I know that the PL coaches certainly wish that they could recruit with scholarships and without a formal Academic Index that limits the potential pool to a tiny fraction of available candidates. It would not be the least bit surprising to hear one of them say that in a private conversation. You just won't hear it in a public comment, of course.

The reality is that these coaches know what the rules are and they live with them. Yes, things would be nicer, but that's just not the system we have.

[RichH2]

Freemarket aid in IL ensures imbalance in recruiting. Limiting rosters will not really impact that reality. Individual coaching staffs are only mode for balance. Good staff better recruits even in the IL. also, the reduction only opens up the last 5 kids in the class. Perhaps some help forsome schools but not a major impact IMHO. It may in fact have more impact in reducing any incentive by most schools in IL to schedule up in OOC games with smaller squads and for some no JV program to develop depth

[Franks Tanks]

The AI is needed and also what a wonderful concept (having athletes that are representative of their student body).

At a school like Lafayette or Colgate we only have about 1,200 or so male students. The FB has 100 memebers and that makes up a very large chunk of the males on campus. Having lower admission standards will have an impact on the overall school numbers. Also having so many kids no capable of the work of the other students puts a burden on the school and profs.

Also the high admission standards are not waste by easy classes. Some of the smartest and most motivated young people in the country apply to and attend the Ivies. They expect to be challenged in class and improve their skills. Classes move through material fast and they demand high quality work. Athletes that dont meet admission criteria simply cant keep up.

[MplsBison]

The AI is needed and also what a wonderful concept (having athletes that are representative of their student body).

At a school like Lafayette or Colgate we only have about 1,200 or so male students. The FB has 100 memebers and that makes up a very large chunk of the males on campus. Having lower admission standards will have an impact on the overall school numbers. Also having so many kids no capable of the work of the other students puts a burden on the school and profs.

Also the high admission standards are not waste by easy classes. Some of the smartest and most motivated young people in the country apply to and attend the Ivies. They expect to be challenged in class and improve their skills. Classes move through material fast and they demand high quality work. Athletes that dont meet admission criteria simply cant keep up.

There's nothing wrong with making sure the players are just as smart as the rest of the student body, so long as the school is paying them for their athletic talent. After all, it's on that athletic talent that the school's athletic department makes its money.

[RichH2]

Makes money? Not in the PL. We are not Montana or Delaware that draw over 20;000. No school profits in football or I think in any other PL sport. While I am in favorofmerit aid, I do not at our level equate it with a skary for a job

[Bogus Megapardus]

There's nothing wrong with making sure the players are just as smart as the rest of the student body, so long as the school is paying them for their athletic talent. After all, it's on that athletic talent that the school's athletic department makes its money.

PL schools do not make money on athletics and are not designed to do so. Believe it or not, the PL schools continue to hold onto the notion of "participatory athletics," where NCAA varsity lacrosse/water polo/squash/sailing/fencing and yes, even football, is something that students do in their off hours as a respite from the rigors of the academic world.

Now, I know some will say this is nonsense, but consider that, at some of our colleges, 30% or more of the student body participates in Division I athletics. That's rather "participatory." No, they're not all playing football, but they're just as devoted and they work just as hard at their sports. And more than 95% of them graduate.

Should we mess with this?

[DFW HOYA]

The AI is needed and also what a wonderful concept (having athletes that are representative of their student body).

If it is such a wonderful concept, where are all the other conferences that employ one? Or in Division II? Or in III? In fact, it exists for one reason: to maintain the relationship with the Ivy League for scheduling purposes and to continue the illusion to IL fans that their schools are competitive outside the league in I-AA football.



At a school like Lafayette or Colgate we only have about 1,200 or so male students. The FB has 100 members and that makes up a very large chunk of the males on campus. Having lower admission standards will have an impact on the overall school numbers.

Does it hurt the numbers at Furman? Or Davidson? Or even Richmond, a school in the PL's enrollment footprint?



Also having so many kids not capable of the work of the other students puts a burden on the school and profs..

Having a 1050 SAT or a 2.8 doesn't mean you're not capable of college work. A school without an AI doesn't have to have lower admissions standards per se, but they have greater flexibility on the cases at the margin at their discretion. Stanford has higher standards than any I-A school but if they choose to bring in someone below a 1050 and deal with it, the school makes that decision, not the conference.

[Franks Tanks]

If it is such a wonderful concept, where are all the other conferences that employ one? Or in Division II? Or in III? In fact, it exists for one reason: to maintain the relationship with the Ivy League for scheduling purposes and to continue the illusion to IL fans that their schools are competitive outside the league in I-AA football.



Does it hurt the numbers at Furman? Or Davidson? Or even Richmond, a school in the PL's enrollment footprint?



Having a 1050 SAT or a 2.8 doesn't mean you're not capable of college work. A school without an AI doesn't have to have lower admissions standards per se, but they have greater flexibility on the cases at the margin at their discretion. Stanford has higher standards than any I-A school but if they choose to bring in someone below a 1050 and deal with it, the school makes that decision, not the conference.


Well Davidson probably has virtually no preference for FB players.

Furman and Richmond so a great job recruiting kids with scholarships who can do the work and play some ball. I have long said the PL schools should look to them as how to run a great FCS football program at a small school.

With that being said I am sure Furman and Richmond have an instutional AI they adhere to. They can compete because they have schooly's.

[DFW HOYA]

With that being said I am sure Furman and Richmond have an instutional AI they adhere to. They can compete because they have schooly's.

Precisely--an institutional set of criteria that is administered and enforced by the schools themselves, not as a quid pro quo to appease the Ivy League.

[MplsBison]

PL schools do not make money on athletics and are not designed to do so. Believe it or not, the PL schools continue to hold onto the notion of "participatory athletics," where NCAA varsity lacrosse/water polo/squash/sailing/fencing and yes, even football, is something that students do in their off hours as a respite from the rigors of the academic world.

Now, I know some will say this is nonsense, but consider that, at some of our colleges, 30% or more of the student body participates in Division I athletics. That's rather "participatory." No, they're not all playing football, but they're just as devoted and they work just as hard at their sports. And more than 95% of them graduate.

Should we mess with this?

PL schools do make money. Lehigh's football team alone had $3,294,039 revenue for the 2008 season (http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetails.aspx?756e697469643d3231333534332679656 1723d32303038267264743d332f382f3230313020323a31303 a353520504d).


They wouldn't take in a single cent without athletically gifted players, who also can get it done in the classroom.


Secondly, if the players were paid based on their athletic talent, what part of the utopian atmosphere in the PL would change? Why?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Other than for football, Georgetown is in the same conference as South Florida. A conference-wide AI wouldn't work too well. True, "having a 1050 SAT or a 2.8 doesn't mean you're not capable of college work," but having 10% of the male students all into that category would have a radical effect on a small college's admission profile.

If given the opportunity, Georgetown would join the Ivy League and lap up its Academic Index like a stray cat at a dish of fresh milk, basketball included. But we, the "Ivy Pretenders," Ivy Lite," Poison Ivy" or whatever people call us can't quite find that gear, I suppose, so our brand of maintaining institutional academic integrity must be equally lacking in Georgetown's eyes.

Sorry you look at it that way.

[Franks Tanks]

Precisely--an institutional set of criteria that is administered and enforced by the schools themselves, not as a quid pro quo to appease the Ivy League.

That is a fair point.

Without scholarship the first thing a PL team may do to gain flexibility for recruits is lower AI. Perhaps a league wide policy wouldnt be needed with scholarships, but currently we need the AI to keep Lehigh in line.

[Franks Tanks]

PL schools do make money. Lehigh's football team alone had $3,294,039 revenue for the 2008 season (http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetails.aspx?756e697469643d3231333534332679656 1723d32303038267264743d332f382f3230313020323a31303 a353520504d).


They wouldn't take in a single cent without athletically gifted players, who also can get it done in the classroom.


Secondly, if the players were paid based on their athletic talent, what part of the utopian atmosphere in the PL would change? Why?


They must be using Enron's accountants. No school in the PL makes anything near a profit on football.

[MplsBison]

They must be using Enron's accountants. No school in the PL makes anything near a profit on football.

And? That's it?

Point: athletes make the athletic department at PL schools, just like anywhere else. Why shouldn't they be paid as athletes?

[Bogus Megapardus]

PL schools do make money. Lehigh's football team alone had $3,294,039 revenue for the 2008 season.

They wouldn't take in a single cent without athletically gifted players, who also can get it done in the classroom.

Secondly, if the players were paid based on their athletic talent, what part of the utopian atmosphere in the PL would change? Why?

Academic Index or not, I'm afraid I just don't understand your argument, Mpls. Lehigh sells tickets to its games but that covers less than the cost of its team's expenses. Financially, Lehigh would be better off not having football at all. But that's not why Lehigh has a football team.

[Model Citizen]

In fact, it exists for one reason: to maintain the relationship with the Ivy League for scheduling purposes and to continue the illusion to IL fans that their schools are competitive outside the league in I-AA football.

That's a reason and a half. xscanx

[Model Citizen]

The title of this thread is misleading. For anyone who doesn't already know, this is a discussion about the number of preferential admissions allowed. Squad sizes have not been cut and are unlikely to be cut in the future. For example, see the roster on the Brown website--108 players. If the Ivies can find student-athletes who can get through the normal admissions process, it seems they can continue to field squads in excess of 100 players.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Stanford has higher standards than any I-A school but if they choose to bring in someone below a 1050 and deal with it, the athletics department makes that decision, not the conference.

Fixed it for you, DFW. It may seem like a small point, but it really is a big one.

At Stanford, if the athletics department tells the president that he needs to bring in X athletes that are there to compete with USC/UCLA, he more often than not gets it - notably, because they want to remain part of the Pac 10 and want to continue to get extremely large checks from ABC.

At, say, Richmond, if the athletics department tells the president that he needs to bring in X athletes that are there to compete with JMU and Delaware, the president shoots back and says: "Where are we going to find the money for this? If we're spending a lot of money for these athletes, how do we know they're good kids that are going to graduate so we don't get APR violations?" Sometimes, the schools get the money and the kids; other times, they don't, largely depending on the desire of the president to have a good football team.

At, say, Colgate, the athletics department needs to fit their incoming class to some minimum standards of academic achievement in high school, and coaches and admissions offices work in tandem to get those kids. They work to get as many kids as possible to compete with Villanova, JMU and Richmond.

There's a huge difference in the way all three schools operate, but at Stanford there is so much money at stake that the money tends to run things.

[colorless raider]

Precisely--an institutional set of criteria that is administered and enforced by the schools themselves, not as a quid pro quo to appease the Ivy League.

I like your thinking on this issue DFW. Why cater to the Ivies in the first place. This AI banding is a killer(as you know btter than others).

[UAalum72]

PL schools do make money. Lehigh's football team alone had $3,294,039 revenue for the 2008 season (http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetails.aspx?756e697469643d3231333534332679656 1723d32303038267264743d332f382f3230313020323a31303 a353520504d).

2008 attendance at Lehigh was 37,709 for an average 'revenue' of $87 per ticket sold. Unless LU charges $75 per ticket that's a lot of hot dogs per spectator.

Obviously you've forgotten that these revenue figures may include 'institutional support' meaning the college provides funds to the athletic department to balance the football budget - essentially paying itself.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

2008 attendance at Lehigh was 37,709 for an average 'revenue' of $87 per ticket sold. Unless LU charges $75 per ticket that's a lot of hot dogs per spectator.

Obviously you've forgotten that these revenue figures may include 'institutional support' meaning the college provides funds to the athletic department to balance the football budget - essentially paying itself.

Wow! And we didn't even have a winning record! :p

[Bogus Megapardus]

I think tickets to a Lehigh game are about 15 bucks or so. It's the warm brie and '95 Château L'Evangile that gets them over the top. Takes the chill off.

(This ones for you, HC BBall fans! xwhistlex)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think tickets to a Lehigh game are about 15 bucks or so. It's the warm brie and '95 Château L'Evangile that gets them over the top. Takes the chill off.

(This ones for you, HC BBall fans! xwhistlex)

Obviously the Shirley Temples you guys are drinking haven't been working for you. xlolx

[MplsBison]

Academic Index or not, I'm afraid I just don't understand your argument, Mpls. Lehigh sells tickets to its games but that covers less than the cost of its team's expenses. Financially, Lehigh would be better off not having football at all. But that's not why Lehigh has a football team.

The argument is that Lehigh's athletic department should be paying it's players for their athletic talent, not their academic record, their community service, the wealth of their family, or any other number of irrelevant factors.

[MplsBison]

2008 attendance at Lehigh was 37,709 for an average 'revenue' of $87 per ticket sold. Unless LU charges $75 per ticket that's a lot of hot dogs per spectator.

Obviously you've forgotten that these revenue figures may include 'institutional support' meaning the college provides funds to the athletic department to balance the football budget - essentially paying itself.

So let me get this straight:

1) the AD has X expenses, which are not fully covered by the total revenue

2) the school gives the AD enough money to cover those expenses

3) then the school turns around and demands Y dollars from the AD to cover the tuition payments of the athletes?


Umm...what?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Someone pour Mpls some of LFN's '95 L'Evangile. He could use it.

[UAalum72]

So let me get this straight:

1) the AD has X expenses, which are not fully covered by the total revenue

2) the school gives the AD enough money to cover those expenses

3) then the school turns around and demands Y dollars from the AD to cover the tuition payments of the athletes?


Umm...what?
I think it's only steps 1 (with tuition as an expense) and 2, with this report counting '2' as athletic revenue.

[RichH2]

Heck, season tickets for Lu were $90 last year. While I am not an accountant the AD money does inlclude "revenue" from school funds, including need grants to players. CPAs aside lets not forget that grants are not checks written by the school to itself altho treated that way by CPAs it is just $$ not chargeable to a student as tuition.

[MplsBison]

I think it's only steps 1 (with tuition as an expense) and 2, with this report counting '2' as athletic revenue.

For the sake of the OPE report, I understand that.

But back in the accounting world, the school's financial office requires dollars coming in to pay the players' tuition bills.


That money comes from the athletic department if the athlete is getting aid from the athletic department. In other words, the athletic department doesn't cut a check to a player for the amount of his tuition bill and say "here ya go! I hope you pay your tuition bill!", they pay that student-athlete's tuition bill for him.



So like I alluded to, this is robbing peter to pay paul.

[RichH2]

Why is it robbery at all?

[MplsBison]

Why is it robbery at all?

It's not, that's just a saying.

[MplsBison]

Here's my guess how it works, but would appreciate someone "in the know" to verify:

'institutional support' comes from student fees. So say every student pays a fee of $500 that goes towards activities or something along those lines. 4000 students and you have 2 million dollars. The school gives the football team 2 million dollars from the fees. The football team turns around and pays the school the 2 million dollars back, plus the million they took in from ticket sales to pay for the players' aid.

Something like that.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Something like that.

Truth? An old dead guy leaves three million or so to each school every year and that covers just about everything. Been happening like clockwork for more than a century. Oddest thing.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://biggreenalertblog.blogspot.com/2010/03/clearing-things-up.html


Message board chatter has picked up lately regarding the Ivy League ending the spring recruiting period while at the same time supposedly cutting back the number of recruits from 30 to 25.

One part of that apparently is correct. One part is not.

The Ivy League did pull the carpet on the May recruiting period. Most (if not all) Ivy staffs did what they were allowed to do to make up for the lost time in February. To understand what was allowed then as well as in the spring, check out the NCAA football recruiting calendar. Look for the decision to end the spring recruiting period – largely a financial decision – to at least be revisited in the near future.

Regarding the drop in the number of recruits from 30 to 25, that has not happened. It has been discussed in the past, but given normal attrition in Ivy League programs (which do not have scholarships to hold over players' heads), how inexact recruiting is at this level and injuries, the decision was made to hold the cap at 30.

Interesting developments. The dropping of the May recruiting period might actually really help the schools that haven't announced their recruiting classes yet (Georgetown, Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross) since if football players haven't made up their minds in late Spring, the Ivy would still be an option - and no longer is, which leaves an opening for those PL schools.

As for dropping the number of recruits, what was interesting was that it was even under discussion at all. It had to be a cost-cutting move, as was the dropping of May recruiting.

[RichH2]

JustreadGreen Alert's blog. He is usually on the mark. Ban on Spring recruiting saves some $$ I guess but most staff's spend spring making contacts and travelling to get the next class set up. May have some impact on this year with kids not signed yet but will have much more impact next year.

[rcny46]

Which brings us to this point: why in the *&$# do the basketball teams get to go to the big dance and the football teams get screwed out of the playoffs? The Ivies have put up some great teams in recent years, and probably could have done some damage. Maybe this has been discussed before, but if I'm a football player at Harvard watching the NCAA tourney where Cornell is getting in, I'm pissed.


I've been asking that question for years at this point,and haven't gotten a straight answer yet.As far as I know,the Ivy League schools participate in post season play in all sports but football,including hockey,baseball and basketball.Anyway,I still can't figure it out.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I've been asking that question for years at this point,and haven't gotten a straight answer yet.As far as I know,the Ivy League schools participate in post season play in all sports but football,including hockey,baseball and basketball.Anyway,I still can't figure it out.

And lacrosse, too, which runs smack into spring exams - and is a sport in which several Ivies each year have a legitimate shot at making the finals.

[ngineer]

And lacrosse, too, which runs smack into spring exams - and is a sport in which several Ivies each year have a legitimate shot at making the finals.

And may even have to play some of those 'yucky' state schools like Towson, Penn State or Rutgers...xrolleyesx

[MplsBison]

Why don't the Ivy schools leave the NCAA and just play each other? Would that really be any different for them, both in terms of existing schedules and in terms of attendance?

[Franks Tanks]

The Ivies are very good at sports like Soccer and Lacrosse and can compete for championships in those sports.

Cornell was ranked in the top 25 in mens B-Ball this year.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Why don't the Ivy schools leave the NCAA and just play each other? Would that really be any different for them, both in terms of existing schedules and in terms of attendance?



Wow.

To begin with, the Ivy League has many sports other than football. The most participating sports of any NCAA conference. The should all just quit? Second, if the Ivies played an insular football schedule (the DIII NASCAC does that), where would that leave its existing OOC football opponents, some of whom have been playing their neighboring Ivy schools for more than a hundred years? Third, the Ivy League members were instrumental in the creation of the NCAA itself. Imagine the impact of such a decision.

I could go on, but I don't need to.

A better question: Why don't the BCS schools just leave the NCAA and just play one another? Answer - because no one would play them in any other sport.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Why don't the Ivy schools leave the NCAA and just play each other? Would that really be any different for them, both in terms of existing schedules and in terms of attendance?


A better question: Why don't the BCS schools just leave the NCAA and just play one another? Answer - because no one would play them in any other sport.

Careful what you wish for. The BCS conferences have been mulling over leaving the NCAA for some time - related to basketball - to make a FBS-like subdivision so they won't have to sully "their" tournament with little schools on the hill like North Dakota State and Lehigh. With a 96 team tourney getting serious blowback and so many teams in the NCAA's, this actually might happen.

Furthermore, IL football has entertained proposals that would in effect make the IL compete only against themselves: have a seven game season, and then a four-team playoff to determine the champion. They'll never leave the NCAA, but they could very well try to cut themselves off - in football, anyway - from the rest of the FCS world.