Future of Non-Scholarship Football

[TexasTerror]

Building on the Stetson discussion (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?t=68404), could we see non-scholarship football going back to having two conferences?

Currently, we have Jacksonville, Davidson and Campbell in the Pioneer League. They could easily be joined in the next 5-10 years by Mercer, Kennessaw State, North Florida, Florida Gulf Coast, Stetson and Winthrop. Throw in Marist, just because of location. Let's call that league the "Atlantic-Sun" for all intensive purposes. ;)

With Cleveland State (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?t=68240) discussing the start of football, can the Pioneer League then become Butler, Dayton, Drake, San Diego, Morehead State, Valparaiso and CSU? Throw in Detroit, who we have heard is discussing the sport and maybe get one of the CSU schools (FUllerton, Northridge, Irvine, Riverside) to reinstate football or start it up, could we have something?

Then the Gridiron Classic could be restored?

ATLANTIC SUN
Campbell
Davidson
Florida Gulf Coast
Jacksonville
Kennessaw State
Marist
Mercer
North Florida
Stetson
Winthrop

PIONEER LEAGUE
Butler
Cleveland State
CSU-Fullerton
Dayton
Detroit
Drake
Morehead State
San Diego
Valparaiso

[UAalum72]

Really stretching. First, if the PFL has already applied for a playoff autobid, why would they go back to the GIC? Aside from saying that football won't happen for at least 3-4 years, was there any indication that FGCU was at all interested in NON-SCHOLARSHIP football? Same for Kennesaw St. Pulling names off the defunct list is no indication of real interest at the Cal-States. There's a rumor of financial problems at Stetson. Marist is still a geographic outlier. If the "Atlantic Sun" actually forms, do you think their goal is another fake 'mid-major' championship or the real FCS one? How many people are at all interested in "restoring" the GIC - unless you want an excuse to keep a conference out of the playoffs?

ps. the phrase is "for all intents and purposes"

[TexasTerror]

Despite those rumors, Stetson is moving forward with a feasibility study...

You are right though. With the Pioneer having applied for an auto-bid, I guess a Gridiron Classic is out of a question.

The more I think about the NEC and Pioneer competing in the playoffs, the more I realize that it is just a good glimpse at the other sports, just more defined with the "non-scholarship" and "partial scholarhship" tags.

In a sport like baseball, we are not sure about the disadvantages (at least publicly) that schools in the NCAAs have of competing against those who are full-scholarship.

[Model Citizen]

Terror, your only stretch is the number of schools involved. A seven team PFL and an Altantic Sun league are realistic within the next five years. An autobid for the PFL is just talk. Under the right circumstances, they would return to the Gridiron Classic in a heartbeat.

[TexasTerror]

Terror, your only stretch is the number of schools involved. A seven team PFL and an Altantic Sun league are realistic within the next five years. An autobid for the PFL is just talk. Under the right circumstances, they would return to the Gridiron Classic in a heartbeat.

Glad that my idea was not too far off the beaten path! ;)

Would love to see two non-scholarship leagues with something legitimate to play for - a non-scholarship championship via the GIC.

[Syntax Error]

The PFL will have an AQ in short order. Mark my words. xnodx xeekx

[doolittledog]

So, these schools go non-scholarship to save money. But then they fly their teams all over the country to play games? The Des Moines Register had an article a few months back that showed Drake lost more money on their football team than UNI did. I guess I don't see the advantage of going non-scholarship unless you have a number of teams in close proximity to each other and you can bus your teams to each others place.

I also don't like the idea of having an AQ for the league. A few years back Drake went 10-1 and was making some noise they should have been invited as an at-large team. They then opened the next season against UNI and lost by about 50 points. And it really wasn't even that close of a game.

[TexasTerror]

Non-scholarship football is the ultimate cost-containment.

Some of these schools have tuition upwards of $25-30k a year. Think about how much money you save if you are not awarding 50-63 scholarships.

For $25k at 50 scholarships, that's over $1.25M on scholarships alone. I am sure their travel budget is considerably less than that, especially if they are getting guarantees to play full-scholarship FCS opponents and playing their OOC games as close as possible to home.

[danefan]

So, these schools go non-scholarship to save money. But then they fly their teams all over the country to play games? The Des Moines Register had an article a few months back that showed Drake lost more money on their football team than UNI did. I guess I don't see the advantage of going non-scholarship unless you have a number of teams in close proximity to each other and you can bus your teams to each others place.

I also don't like the idea of having an AQ for the league. A few years back Drake went 10-1 and was making some noise they should have been invited as an at-large team. They then opened the next season against UNI and lost by about 50 points. And it really wasn't even that close of a game.

Do you have a link to that article? I can't seem to find it.

Drake's budget is less than 1/3 of UNI's budget. I'd like to see how the article phrases the loss comparison and what data it was based on.

Thanks

[danefan]

Non-scholarship football is the ultimate cost-containment.

Some of these schools have tuition upwards of $25-30k a year. Think about how much money you save if you are not awarding 50-63 scholarships.

For $25k at 50 scholarships, that's over $1.25M on scholarships alone. I am sure their travel budget is considerably less than that, especially if they are getting guarantees to play full-scholarship FCS opponents and playing their OOC games as close as possible to home.

Most PFL schools have out of pocket travel budgets of $150,000 to $300,000 dollars.

Significantly less than the costs of scholarships at these small private schools, especially when you consider Title IX.

[DetroitFlyer]

Wow, after all of these years, how can you be so clueless? The PFL is non-ATHLETIC scholarship. Virtually every player on a team receives some form of aid. Do you think there is a reason that you virtually never see a minimum qualifier on a PFL team? MANY PFL players are also top students. Again, do you think it is simply luck that Dayton always has an exceptionally high number of academic All Americans? Some of you talk as though every PFL player is paying $40K to play football. Give me a break.... If you followed PFL recruiting at all you would know that the financial aid package is an absolutely critical part of the decision making process. The PFL lands MANY players that are also being recruited by other FCS schools. Again, is it just luck? NO!!!!! The aid packages of the PFL can compete with other programs. We also land FBS transfers from time to time. I could go on, but I honestly think that some here are simply not intelligent enough to understand that the PFL has a great niche in FCS and that the PFL can compete in this division as well if not better than some other conferences.

[UAalum72]

Actually, flyer, isn't it often the schools themselves that cite the full cost of attendance when arguing why they shouldn't add athletic scholarships? If they were being honest about it, shouldn't the cost of going full athletics scholarship be the total cost minus the average amount of aid given to current students (which at some schools may be 20 to 40% or more)?

[DetroitFlyer]

Actually, flyer, isn't it often the schools themselves that cite the full cost of attendance when arguing why they shouldn't add athletic scholarships? If they were being honest about it, shouldn't the cost of going full athletics scholarship be the total cost minus the average amount of aid given to current students (which at some schools may be 20 to 40% or more)?

Absolutely.

[DFW HOYA]

Wow, after all of these years, how can you be so clueless? The PFL is non-ATHLETIC scholarship. Virtually every player on a team receives some form of aid. Do you think there is a reason that you virtually never see a minimum qualifier on a PFL team? MANY PFL players are also top students.

What's the distinction with minimum qualifiers? The Pioneer has no minimum AI, so if the recruit was admitted and needed aid, they would get it.

[MplsBison]

Wow, after all of these years, how can you be so clueless? The PFL is non-ATHLETIC scholarship. Virtually every player on a team receives some form of aid. Do you think there is a reason that you virtually never see a minimum qualifier on a PFL team? MANY PFL players are also top students. Again, do you think it is simply luck that Dayton always has an exceptionally high number of academic All Americans? Some of you talk as though every PFL player is paying $40K to play football. Give me a break.... If you followed PFL recruiting at all you would know that the financial aid package is an absolutely critical part of the decision making process. The PFL lands MANY players that are also being recruited by other FCS schools. Again, is it just luck? NO!!!!! The aid packages of the PFL can compete with other programs. We also land FBS transfers from time to time. I could go on, but I honestly think that some here are simply not intelligent enough to understand that the PFL has a great niche in FCS and that the PFL can compete in this division as well if not better than some other conferences.

It's the same model used by the MIAC conference here in Minnesota. These are small, private schools with large tuitions, but like you say every player gets some form of aid.

The difference is that the aid these players are getting is available to all enrolled students. They can't get aid that is available only to players.

[MplsBison]

What's the distinction with minimum qualifiers? The Pioneer has no minimum AI, so if the recruit was admitted and needed aid, they would get it.

NCAA clearinghouse?

[doolittledog]

Schools can get creative with their aid packages. MplsBison brings up D3 football, which is basically what the non-scholarship FCS schools are. I went to a D3 school in Iowa and there were athletes that went to school for very little money. Last summer I talked to the father of a kid that started off playing football at UNI. He got a 50% athletic scholarship. He left after a year and enrolled at nearby D3 school Wartburg College. He was able to go to Wartburg for $3,000 less than his 50% ride at UNI.

[MplsBison]

Wow...UNI is expensive. $15k a year for tuition?

I thought most public schools are <$10k a year.

[Model Citizen]

NCAA clearinghouse?

Yes.

[Model Citizen]

Actually, flyer, isn't it often the schools themselves that cite the full cost of attendance when arguing why they shouldn't add athletic scholarships? If they were being honest about it, shouldn't the cost of going full athletics scholarship be the total cost minus the average amount of aid given to current students (which at some schools may be 20 to 40% or more)?

The athletics department at every school I know of is an independent enterprise. :ahem:...under the institutional control of the school. xwhistlex

[DetroitFlyer]

What's the distinction with minimum qualifiers? The Pioneer has no minimum AI, so if the recruit was admitted and needed aid, they would get it.

You just do not see many in the PFL because we recruit STUDENT/athletes, even without an AI. Top students are eligible for more academic aid.

[UAalum72]

The athletics department at every school I know of is an independent enterprise. :ahem:...under the institutional control of the school. xwhistlex
Meaning what? 90% of athletic departments lose money, don't most of them make it up with 'institutional support' from the school? So one way or another the school is going to be on the hook for the money. That's why so many of the athletic budgets balance exactly to the dollar.

[PantherRob82]

I hope the future involves more competitive scheduling. It's hard to tell how good teams are when there's no overlap. Same with the Ivies.

[DFW HOYA]

You just do not see many in the PFL because we recruit STUDENT/athletes, even without an AI. Top students are eligible for more academic aid.

Different priorities, I guess. Top students get no more aid at Georgetown than anyone else because aid is based on need not merit.

[MplsBison]

Different priorities, I guess. Top students get no more aid at Georgetown than anyone else because aid is based on need not merit.

Really? Even for academics? .... at a school?

I would think at pretty much all schools the top X% of gpa/test scores/whatever of the new undergrads would be eligible for aid that the rest are not eligible to receive.



So the last guy in, academically, for a new class at Georgetown could get more aid than the top guy in the class, just because he comes from a poor family and the top guy is from a rich family? xthumbsdownx

[Model Citizen]

Meaning what? 90% of athletic departments lose money, don't most of them make it up with 'institutional support' from the school? So one way or another the school is going to be on the hook for the money. That's why so many of the athletic budgets balance exactly to the dollar.

For that matter, why should there be accounting standards, internal controls, accrediting organizations, and other nuisances that obstruct funding the primary mission of these schools? I'm talking about football.

Beats me. After all, doesn't all financial aid come from the same source?

I think the topic is beyond the scope of this message board.

[DFW HOYA]

Really? Even for academics? .... at a school?

I would think at pretty much all schools the top X% of gpa/test scores/whatever of the new undergrads would be eligible for aid that the rest are not eligible to receive. So the last guy in, academically, for a new class at Georgetown could get more aid than the top guy in the class, just because he comes from a poor family and the top guy is from a rich family? xthumbsdownx

All University aid (absent ROTC and athletic scholarships) is strictly based on need. You could have a 800/800 SAT and be first in your class at Exeter, but if you don't qualify for aid, you won't get it. If you're admitted with full need, GU pays full ride. The institutional priority is to retain the best students regardless of ability to pay, so all its financial aid budget goes there.

And to the secondary point, football aid follows the same formula. Does it lose some good kids as a result? Sure, but that's the rules they work under.

[bluehenbillk]

Should probably inject the PL here too, they've fallen way off the map in terms of competitiveness.

[TexasTerror]

You just do not see many in the PFL because we recruit STUDENT/athletes, even without an AI. Top students are eligible for more academic aid.

Student-athletes, eh?

What's the APR at Pioneer League schools compared to scholarship schools?

You know, I heard that Div III was about student-athletes, but then saw that the graduation rates were not as great that as I would have imagined...

[Syntax Error]

Should probably inject the PL here too, they've fallen way off the map in terms of competitiveness.

Georgetown is in the PL, in case you forgot. The PL beat CAA (formerly known as A-10) foes this decade in the playoffs. So does that mean that the CAA (formerly known as A-10) teams have fallen way off too?

BTW, I know that Delaware has won a D-I football championship. I was there in Chatty that night.

[Syntax Error]

Student-athletes, eh? ... You know, I heard that Div III was about student-athletes, but then saw that the graduation rates were not as great that as I would have imagined...

Are you saying that the PFL is D-III? Are you imagining?

[TexasTerror]

Are you saying that the PFL is D-III? Are you imagining?

No, I am not saying the PFL is Div III.

Saying that I heard the argument that Div III is more about student-athletes compared to Div I. Then, I hear the graduation rates in Div III are not as impressive as you hear, in fact lower than Div I in many cases...

[doolittledog]

No, I am not saying the PFL is Div III.

Saying that I heard the argument that Div III is more about student-athletes compared to Div I. Then, I hear the graduation rates in Div III are not as impressive as you hear, in fact lower than Div I in many cases...

I went to a D3 school, and from talking with friends that went to other D3 schools you find a trend. A lot of kids start their college careers at a D3 school thinking they are going to be a 4 year all-american because it's a lower level. Then when reality sets in and they realize they will have to work their butt off just to become a starter by their junior season they leave school. Most of the time to show up at a larger state school as a member of the general student body and still get a degree within 5 years. It's not uncommon for a D3 football program to bring in a freshman class of 60 kids just so they have a senior class of 20. You don't get that kind of attrition at D1 schools. I would like to see a study that tracks these kids from 1 school to another and finds the graduation rate.

[Syntax Error]

No, I am not saying the PFL is Div III.

Saying that I heard the argument that Div III is more about student-athletes compared to Div I. Then, I hear the graduation rates in Div III are not as impressive as you hear, in fact lower than Div I in many cases...

Ah, thanks for the clarification and sorry for my misunderstanding. :o

[MplsBison]

All University aid (absent ROTC and athletic scholarships) is strictly based on need. You could have a 800/800 SAT and be first in your class at Exeter, but if you don't qualify for aid, you won't get it. If you're admitted with full need, GU pays full ride. The institutional priority is to retain the best students regardless of ability to pay, so all its financial aid budget goes there.

And to the secondary point, football aid follows the same formula. Does it lose some good kids as a result? Sure, but that's the rules they work under.

There's no point in hiding behind "what the rules are".

Such a horrible rule deserves to be challenged.

[MplsBison]

I went to a D3 school, and from talking with friends that went to other D3 schools you find a trend. A lot of kids start their college careers at a D3 school thinking they are going to be a 4 year all-american because it's a lower level. Then when reality sets in and they realize they will have to work their butt off just to become a starter by their junior season they leave school. Most of the time to show up at a larger state school as a member of the general student body and still get a degree within 5 years. It's not uncommon for a D3 football program to bring in a freshman class of 60 kids just so they have a senior class of 20. You don't get that kind of attrition at D1 schools. I would like to see a study that tracks these kids from 1 school to another and finds the graduation rate.

That sounds right. DIII is a different animal.

It's too bad that the PFL, PL and Ivy schools can't be allowed to play in that division. But I fully understand why the DIII schools booted them due to the advantage from playing DI bball.

[Bogus Megapardus]

But I fully understand why the DIII schools booted them

Booted who?

[UAalum72]

Booted who?
The D-III schools essentially booted the Divsion I schools from D-III football in 1993. The 1989 D-III championship game was Dayton vs. Wagner.

Some of the Patriot League and Yankee Conference schools were once D-II in football but I'm not sure of the timing of their moving to D-I.

The Ivy League was never D-III but Mpls thinks they should be.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The D-III schools essentially booted the Divsion I schools from D-III football in 1993. The 1989 D-III championship game was Dayton vs. Wagner.

Some of the Patriot League and Yankee Conference schools were once D-II in football but I'm not sure of the timing of their moving to D-I.

The Ivy League was never D-III but Mpls thinks they should be.

All Ivies always have been Division I. Some PL schools (e.g., Colgate, Holy Cross) always have been Division I, while others (Lehigh, Lafayette) were Division II for football prior to the creation of 1-AA but were 1-AA members from the get-go, well prior to the "Dayton Rule." No PL or Ivy schools were ever D-III anything, and none were booted from anywhere, to my my knowledge. Maybe I'm missing something, though.

[Syntax Error]

All Ivies always have been Division I. Some PL schools (e.g., Colgate, Holy Cross) always have been Division I, while others (Lehigh, Lafayette) were Division II for football prior to the creation of 1-AA but were 1-AA members from the get-go, well prior to the "Dayton Rule." No PL or Ivy schools were ever D-III anything, and none were booted from anywhere, to my knowledge. Maybe I'm missing something, though.

That is correct (except it was I-AA :) ).

[WestCoastAggie]

Really? Even for academics? .... at a school?

I would think at pretty much all schools the top X% of gpa/test scores/whatever of the new undergrads would be eligible for aid that the rest are not eligible to receive.



So the last guy in, academically, for a new class at Georgetown could get more aid than the top guy in the class, just because he comes from a poor family and the top guy is from a rich family? xthumbsdownx

It's more complex than that.

[DFW HOYA]

All Ivies always have been Division I. Some PL schools (e.g., Colgate, Holy Cross) always have been Division I, while others (Lehigh, Lafayette) were Division II for football prior to the creation of 1-AA but were 1-AA members from the get-go, well prior to the "Dayton Rule." No PL or Ivy schools were ever D-III anything, and none were booted from anywhere, to my my knowledge. Maybe I'm missing something, though.

Davidson was I-AA and then joined III, and later I-AA.
Towson was III, then II, then I-AA.
Fordham and Georgetown went from Div. I to club, then II, then III, then I-AA.

[Syntax Error]

Fordham and Georgetown went from Div. I to club, then II, then III, then I-AA.Forgot about those who dropped NCAA football and crawled back. Good catch! xsmileyclapx

[WestCoastAggie]

Why is Georgetown hesistant about fielding a fully funded D1 football team?

[DFW HOYA]

Why is Georgetown hesistant about fielding a fully funded D1 football team?

"Fully funded" assumes one has, well... funds.

Next question?

[Syntax Error]

"Fully funded" assumes one has, well... funds

Georgetown doesn't have funds? xchinscratchx

[WestCoastAggie]

"Fully funded" assumes one has, well... funds.

Next question?

Why isn't Georgetown interested in having a full scholarship, D1 team?
According to my sources, Georgetown's Athletic program has a 27 million dollar budget and is easily capable to cover the expenses in the budget.

[bincitysioux]

Need-Based Aid: "We need a goalie, so give a goaltender aid to come play here."

At least that's how it works in ECAC Hockey.


I've also always wondered why Georgetown doesn't fully fund the football program.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I've also always wondered why Georgetown doesn't fully fund the football program.

DFW HOYA has been blogging quite intelligently for years on this subject. Best not wear him out.

[ngineer]

Georgetown doesn't have funds? xchinscratchx

They don't have the will.

[MplsBison]

Booted who?

Dayton, et al

[MplsBison]

It's more complex than that.

Actually, no it's not, as DFW confirmed.


They don't care how talented you are, just how wealthy your family is, when determining how much aid you'll receive.

[WestCoastAggie]

DFW HOYA has been blogging quite intelligently for years on this subject. Best not wear him out.

Whats his blog link?

[Syntax Error]

Whats his blog link?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5aDKqsf1RVE/SqUEb4QFi5I/AAAAAAAAAFw/EbqfDYYtwKQ/S1600-R/third_rail_8.gif (http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/)

[WestCoastAggie]

Actually, no it's not, as DFW confirmed.


They don't care how talented you are, just how wealthy your family is, when determining how much aid you'll receive.

That shouldn't be a problem. Georgetown is a private institution and sees fit to award aid based on the ability to pay for it. I am quite confident that there are plenty of Hoyas with high GPA's that receive most of their education paid for from scholly's, fellowships and other sources instead from out of pocket.

And personally, Rich families better not be complaining about paying for their kids collegiate education. You had 18-19 years to prepare to help your child to pay for college. You have no excuse. And I am quite confident that if your child was doing what they had to do in High School, they will find all the funding they need before taking out loans.

[WestCoastAggie]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5aDKqsf1RVE/SqUEb4QFi5I/AAAAAAAAAFw/EbqfDYYtwKQ/S1600-R/third_rail_8.gif (http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/)

Thanks. Appreciate it. Heading to read now.

[DFW HOYA]

Here's a blog post appropriate to this discussion (with the 25,000 seat stadium that was never built...)

http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2009/01/what-if.html

The Cliff's Notes version for football funding can be summarized thusly:

1. Money.

2. Georgetown has a $27 million budget for athletics, but ~ $10 million is committed to men's and women's basketball. A $17 million budget for 27 other sports does not leave room for growth.

3. Georgetown has no interest in cutting sports. These sports have vocal constituencies and a long history at the school.

4. The Big East requires minimum scholarship funding for all its sports (of which 23 of Georgetown's sports are in), which limits purely discretionary funds from going to football or other non-BE sports.

5. Finally, there is the elephant in the room, facilities. Even if you found the scholarship money, Georgetown has minimal game-day facilities (the smallest facility by capacity in Div. I) , no practice fields, no training tables, locker rooms, not even a dedicated weight room that would be essential at the I-A level.

6. Finally, the drive to build a new facility has been ongoing for 10 years and the price continues to rise. So where does that get going? See #1.


They don't care how talented you are, just how wealthy your family is, when determining how much aid you'll receive.

Not quite. Georgetown is one of a number of schools (including the Ivies) that follow a strict need-based formula based on "parent contribution" and not wealth--the difference is that some of the Ivies now offer 100% grant money to families with a AGI below $50,000, in Georgetown's case, they might be only able to offer 50% grant, 35% loan, and 15% work study. Obviously, not as attractive to students. (Or football prospects.)

But not all the Ivies can go the 100% route anymore:
http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/02/dartmouths-decision-to-drop-no-loans.html

[MplsBison]

That shouldn't be a problem. Georgetown is a private institution and sees fit to award aid based on the ability to pay for it. I am quite confident that there are plenty of Hoyas with high GPA's that receive most of their education paid for from scholly's, fellowships and other sources instead from out of pocket.

And personally, Rich families better not be complaining about paying for their kids collegiate education. You had 18-19 years to prepare to help your child to pay for college. You have no excuse. And I am quite confident that if your child was doing what they had to do in High School, they will find all the funding they need before taking out loans.

That they have high GPA's is irrelevant, they get most of their education paid because they came from poor families.


It has nothing to do with a rich family being able to pay for the education. It has everything to do with the principle of rewarding talent instead of rewarding something that the student-athlete had no control over.

[MplsBison]

Here's a blog post appropriate to this discussion (with the 25,000 seat stadium that was never built...)

http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2009/01/what-if.html

The Cliff's Notes version for football funding can be summarized thusly:

1. Money.

2. Georgetown has a $27 million budget for athletics, but ~ $10 million is committed to men's and women's basketball. A $17 million budget for 27 other sports does not leave room for growth.

3. Georgetown has no interest in cutting sports. These sports have vocal constituencies and a long history at the school.

4. The Big East requires minimum scholarship funding for all its sports (of which 23 of Georgetown's sports are in), which limits purely discretionary funds from going to football or other non-BE sports.

5. Finally, there is the elephant in the room, facilities. Even if you found the scholarship money, Georgetown has minimal game-day facilities (the smallest facility by capacity in Div. I) , no practice fields, no training tables, locker rooms, not even a dedicated weight room that would be essential at the I-A level.

6. Finally, the drive to build a new facility has been ongoing for 10 years and the price continues to rise. So where does that get going? See #1.



Not quite. Georgetown is one of a number of schools (including the Ivies) that follow a strict need-based formula based on "parent contribution" and not wealth--the difference is that some of the Ivies now offer 100% grant money to families with a AGI below $50,000, in Georgetown's case, they might be only able to offer 50% grant, 35% loan, and 15% work study. Obviously, not as attractive to students. (Or football prospects.)

But not all the Ivies can go the 100% route anymore:
http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/02/dartmouths-decision-to-drop-no-loans.html

So UConn can built one of the nicest practice facilities in FBS, literally from nothing, but Georgetown is completely hapless? Come on...

You can play in RFK or FedEx.

[Bogus Megapardus]

You can play in RFK or FedEx.

Colleges such as Georgetown have football teams for a purpose. This would not serve that purpose.

[MplsBison]

Colleges such as Georgetown have football teams for a purpose. This would not serve that purpose.

Why not?

[CFBfan]

That shouldn't be a problem. Georgetown is a private institution and sees fit to award aid based on the ability to pay for it. I am quite confident that there are plenty of Hoyas with high GPA's that receive most of their education paid for from scholly's, fellowships and other sources instead from out of pocket.

And personally, Rich families better not be complaining about paying for their kids collegiate education. You had 18-19 years to prepare to help your child to pay for college. You have no excuse. And I am quite confident that if your child was doing what they had to do in High School, they will find all the funding they need before taking out loans.

you sound like an angry left winger looking for wealth redistribution like some folks in Washington these days.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Yankee Conference teams were D-II in football back at the creation of I-AA. They all moved to the new classification shortly thereafter. None of the Yankee, Patriot or Ivy schools were forced by D-III schools to upgrade, they've never been D-III.

[DetroitFlyer]

Must be a slow news day for this thread to still have legs.... The future of non-ATHLETIC scholarship FCS football is the playoffs and more and more games against traditional FCS teams. The future may even be expansion. In 2010, this should not even be a topic of discussion. As I have said for years, there is no such thing as non-scholarship FCS football, there is only FCS.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

So UConn can built one of the nicest practice facilities in FBS, literally from nothing, but Georgetown is completely hapless? Come on...

You can play in RFK or FedEx.

UConn was given 75 acres of land in East Hartford by the United Technology Corporation and $93,000,000 by the state legislature. Rentschler Field was built on that land along with an indoor practice facility in Storrs for that money. Anybody stepping up in a similar fashion for Georgetown? Real Estate is even more expensive in DC than in Central CT!!! I don't think anyone is selling the negative impact to basketball (the holy grail in CT) if football isn't FBS theory to the Hoya faithful.

[WestCoastAggie]

you sound like an angry left winger looking for wealth redistribution like some folks in Washington these days.

xlolx xlolx

I'm no far left winger by any means.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Must be a slow news day for this thread to still have legs.... The future of non-ATHLETIC scholarship FCS football is the playoffs and more and more games against traditional FCS teams. The future may even be expansion. In 2010, this should not even be a topic of discussion. As I have said for years, there is no such thing as non-scholarship FCS football, there is only FCS.

As long as the Ivy continues down an isolationist path, the Patriot stays attached to the hip of the Ivy and the Pioneer continues to play multiple non D-I games, non-scholarship FCS Football will be a topic for discussion! xtwocentsx

[DJOM]

In my humble opinion, non-scholarship football at the D1AA---FCS---level will continue for as long as Title IX is enforced. One year at a PFL school is about 35K and an Ivy is about 45K. Thanks to the present interpretation of Title IX, every scholarship awarded for football would necessarily have to be matched by a similar scholarship for female athletics. Most of these school's athletic departments simply could not afford to take that type of financial hit.

[MplsBison]

In my humble opinion, non-scholarship football at the D1AA---FCS---level will continue for as long as Title IX is enforced. One year at a PFL school is about 35K and an Ivy is about 45K. Thanks to the present interpretation of Title IX, every scholarship awarded for football would necessarily have to be matched by a similar scholarship for female athletics. Most of these school's athletic departments simply could not afford to take that type of financial hit.

You're going to have a tough time convincing me that the Ivy League schools could not do what Stanford is doing.

[MplsBison]

UConn was given 75 acres of land in East Hartford by the United Technology Corporation and $93,000,000 by the state legislature. Rentschler Field was built on that land along with an indoor practice facility in Storrs for that money. Anybody stepping up in a similar fashion for Georgetown? Real Estate is even more expensive in DC than in Central CT!!! I don't think anyone is selling the negative impact to basketball (the holy grail in CT) if football isn't FBS theory to the Hoya faithful.

I know the state built the stadium, I'm talking about the on-campus practice facility. One of the nicest in the nation, built with large donations.

GU would have donors of that scale if they announced they were looking at big-time scholarship football.

[Franks Tanks]

That sounds right. DIII is a different animal.

It's too bad that the PFL, PL and Ivy schools can't be allowed to play in that division. But I fully understand why the DIII schools booted them due to the advantage from playing DI bball.

You are so annoying.

[MplsBison]

You are so annoying.

I don't like schools that don't award merit aid out of principle. It's horse manure.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

UConn was given 75 acres of land in East Hartford by the United Technology Corporation and $93,000,000 by the state legislature. Rentschler Field was built on that land along with an indoor practice facility in Storrs for that money. Anybody stepping up in a similar fashion for Georgetown? Real Estate is even more expensive in DC than in Central CT!!! I don't think anyone is selling the negative impact to basketball (the holy grail in CT) if football isn't FBS theory to the Hoya faithful.


I know the state built the stadium, I'm talking about the on-campus practice facility. One of the nicest in the nation, built with large donations.

GU would have donors of that scale if they announced they were looking at big-time scholarship football.

Please re-read my post, that indoor practice facility was built with state funding. The Rent is hardly a $93,000,000 stadium, even with the high labor costs in the Northeast. Especially when no land needed to be purchased! I've never read anything here in CT stating that practice facility was built primarily from donations. What's your source on that?

[Franks Tanks]

I don't like schools that don't award merit aid out of principle. It's horse manure.

Are you sure you're not retarted?

[WestCoastAggie]

I don't like schools that don't award merit aid out of principle. It's horse manure.
xviolinx

[Bogus Megapardus]

I don't like schools that don't award merit aid out of principle. It's horse manure.

If you extend the fingers on your two hands to count the originators of college football, the members of the Ivy League and Patriot League are among them. Other colleges and universities since that time have employed a variety of methods to try to keep keep pace. One such method - notably successful - has been the athletic scholarship.

You might not "like" Penn or Colgate or Yale or Georgetown, but they've been at it for a terribly long time and there is some sense (albeit a minority view in your eyes, perhaps) that their graduates know what they're doing. They don't award football scholarships but for some odd reason they seem to hang around, don't they?

MplsBison, extending your singular finger at this circumstance does not alter its foundation. I am both confident and in good company in writing here that, absent the foresight and innovation of the students of these institutions, college football would not exist and none of us would be here having this discussion.

[DFW HOYA]

MplsBison is playing the role of the contrarian. Tell him the sky is blue and he'll say it's green.

If Georgetown offered no need-based aid he'd say the school is perpetuating an elite meritocracy. Offer no merit aid and he'll say that's unfair to smart kids.

Per US News, there are only 24 Division I schools offering full need financial aid. Of these, half (12) are in the Ivy or Patriot League, and the rest include places like Notre Dame, Duke, North Carolina, Boston College, Stanford, Virginia, and Northwestern. It's not surprise that these are Georgetown's academic peers because they share similar philosophies about providing affordable options for those who are qualified to attend their colleges but could not otherwise do so. (But then again, this is where MplsBison will respond that schools with strange ideas like this should all be in Division II and the conversation continues.)

http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/paying-for-college/2010/02/18/colleges-that-claim-to-meet-the-full-financial-needs-of-students.html

[ngineer]

Are you sure you're not retarted?

Sounds like a Paris Hilton do-over...;)

[ngineer]

If you extend the fingers on your two hands to count the originators of college football, the members of the Ivy League and Patriot League are among them. Other colleges and universities since that time have employed a variety of methods to try to keep keep pace. One such method - notably successful - has been the athletic scholarship.

You might not "like" Penn or Colgate or Yale or Georgetown, but they've been at it for a terribly long time and there is some sense (albeit a minority view in your eyes, perhaps) that their graduates know what they're doing. They don't award football scholarships but for some odd reason they seem to hang around, don't they?

MplsBison, extending your singular finger at this circumstance does not alter its foundation. I am both confident and in good company in writing here that, absent the foresight and innovation of the students of these institutions, college football would not exist and none of us would be here having this discussion.

xnodxxthumbsupx

[MplsBison]

Please re-read my post, that indoor practice facility was built with state funding. The Rent is hardly a $93,000,000 stadium, even with the high labor costs in the Northeast. Especially when no land needed to be purchased! I've never read anything here in CT stating that practice facility was built primarily from donations. What's your source on that?

http://www.uconnhuskies.com/facilities/burton-family-complex.html


The Burton Family Football Complex serves as the on-campus home of UConn football and complements Rentschler Field in East Hartford. The lead gift for the facility is a $2.5 million contribution by Robert G. Burton.

http://www.uconnhuskies.com/school-bio/strength-conditioning-shenkman.html


hanks to alumnus Mark R. Shenkman, the University of Connecticut now joins the ranks of major universities nationwide with an indoor training facility that is utilized by the football program, recreational services and other varsity sports.

His $2.5 million gift, one of the largest ever to the UConn Division of Athletics, built an intercollegiate, intramural and recreational facility that serves the entire UConn community.

[MplsBison]

MplsBison is playing the role of the contrarian. Tell him the sky is blue and he'll say it's green.

If Georgetown offered no need-based aid he'd say the school is perpetuating an elite meritocracy. Offer no merit aid and he'll say that's unfair to smart kids.

Per US News, there are only 24 Division I schools offering full need financial aid. Of these, half (12) are in the Ivy or Patriot League, and the rest include places like Notre Dame, Duke, North Carolina, Boston College, Stanford, Virginia, and Northwestern. It's not surprise that these are Georgetown's academic peers because they share similar philosophies about providing affordable options for those who are qualified to attend their colleges but could not otherwise do so. (But then again, this is where MplsBison will respond that schools with strange ideas like this should all be in Division II and the conversation continues.)

http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/paying-for-college/2010/02/18/colleges-that-claim-to-meet-the-full-financial-needs-of-students.html

Notre Dame, Duke, North Carolina, Boston College, Stanford, Virginia, and Northwestern all offer athletic scholarships!

Can I roll my eyes any harder?

[MplsBison]

If you extend the fingers on your two hands to count the originators of college football, the members of the Ivy League and Patriot League are among them. Other colleges and universities since that time have employed a variety of methods to try to keep keep pace. One such method - notably successful - has been the athletic scholarship.

You might not "like" Penn or Colgate or Yale or Georgetown, but they've been at it for a terribly long time and there is some sense (albeit a minority view in your eyes, perhaps) that their graduates know what they're doing. They don't award football scholarships but for some odd reason they seem to hang around, don't they?

MplsBison, extending your singular finger at this circumstance does not alter its foundation. I am both confident and in good company in writing here that, absent the foresight and innovation of the students of these institutions, college football would not exist and none of us would be here having this discussion.

I'm sure Penn, Colgate, Yale and Georgetown would surely show those darn newcomers like USC and Texas a lesson they'd not soon forget!

[Bogus Megapardus]

Notre Dame, Duke, North Carolina, Boston College, Stanford, Virginia, and Northwestern all offer athletic scholarships!

So do Georgetown, Lehigh and Holy Cross. Just not in football.

Read the article first, MplsBison. Just like a state-supported college, any student can attend one of the listed institutions for free, if he or she qualifies. The list even includes little, unmentionable colleges like Oberlin, Gettysburg and Lafayette.

Why do you suppose that is?

[MplsBison]

So do Georgetown, Lehigh and Holy Cross. Just not in football.

Read the article first, MplsBison. Just like a state-supported college, any student can attend one of the listed institutions for free, if he or she qualifies. The list even includes little, unmentionable colleges like Oberlin, Gettysburg and Lafayette.

Why do you suppose that is?

Because they came from a "poor enough" family, something that the student has no control over.

[WestCoastAggie]

Because they came from a "poor enough" family, something that the student has no control over.

So should those students not have the opportunity to attend those institutions due things they have no control over?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Because they came from a "poor enough" family, something that the student has no control over.

BS - I went to public high schools and I earned an academic scholarship at Lafayette College (and other colleges). I participated in varsity athletics and I paid for my own education in full through a combination of grants, loans, employment and good-old sweat equity.

I had control over those factors because I wanted my choice of colleges to attend and I afforded myself that choice. I had no input, guidance, or monetary assistance whatsoever from my parents, family or anyone else.

So just stop it, OK, MplsBison? It's getting old.

[Franks Tanks]

Notre Dame, Duke, North Carolina, Boston College, Stanford, Virginia, and Northwestern all offer athletic scholarships!

Can I roll my eyes any harder?

Who cares of we choose to do it a different way.

Nobody is claiming our path is superior or more enlightened, it is simply our choice to provide financial aid to football players in a way we feel best (not that we all agree this is the best way). We continue to compete in the FCS and meet every NCAA guideline to do so.

It is possible to have different inputs yet still end up with the same result.

What dont you attack schools like DePaul, Marquette, Providence and Seton Hall. Private schools playing in the Big East who havent even attempted to play football in decades. At least the schools you hate so dearly are attempting to compete as well as they can given their unique limitations.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Back to what is (ostensibly) the topic of this thread, you could make a very cogent argument that the future of non-scholarship football hasn't been brighter. More schools are looking into the possibility of adding it. A non-scholarship D-I league is going to most likely get access to the FCS playoffs. And they do so by spending less money than other schools that sponsor football.

But it is different than the game that the CAA/SoCon/Gateway play.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

http://www.uconnhuskies.com/facilities/burton-family-complex.html



http://www.uconnhuskies.com/school-bio/strength-conditioning-shenkman.html

You may want to dig a little deeper because that facility cost almost $49,000,000! It was not funded primarily by private gifts. Less than one third of that figure came from private donations.

http://cfo.uconn.edu/ProjectBudgets/Intramural.pdf

You can paint it anyway you want, but the primary funding for the UConn football upgrade came from the taxpaper's pockets.

[RichH2]

An interesting topic hijacked into a Gordian knot of semantics by the erstwhile Bison once again. Yet we all seem to get seduced by his contrarian posts. As Bogus so aptly (and much more eloquently than I could) noted we each take our own path to college . I predate much of the current angst over scholarship, merit aid , need aid etc, etc. I rec'd a"scholarship"to attend Lehigh to play football and earn a degree. A portion was a need grant, another was an academic grant and the rest was work study, loans and summer jobs. Without that I would not have been able to attend LU. It was my family's decision to put in the effort because it was worth it as opposed to a cheaper alternative at a NYS school. It was the right decision for me. I now have 2 kids at LU. Costly ,sure but our choice.

[MplsBison]

BS - I went to public high schools and I earned an academic scholarship at Lafayette College (and other colleges). I participated in varsity athletics and I paid for my own education in full through a combination of grants, loans, employment and good-old sweat equity.

I had control over those factors because I wanted my choice of colleges to attend and I afforded myself that choice. I had no input, guidance, or monetary assistance whatsoever from my parents, family or anyone else.

So just stop it, OK, MplsBison? It's getting old.

You were only eligible for such scholarships because you weren't born with a silver spoon in your mouth.

Once you were eligible, then yes your talent allowed you to be rewarded. I wasn't trying to discredit you or anyone who was awarded such scholarships. Obviously you have to be very talented to even make it into such schools.


My point has always been: once the student is admitted, why then is the question of aid determined by such a flawed principle?

[MplsBison]

So should those students not have the opportunity to attend those institutions due things they have no control over?

The question of aid should be determined on a talent/merit basis, not a need basis.

That so patently obvious to me, it dumbfounds me how anyone could disagree.

I guess when you're indoctrinated in the Ivy/Patriot "way", it's hard to see it the way the rest of see things?

[MplsBison]

You may want to dig a little deeper because that facility cost almost $49,000,000! It was not funded primarily by private gifts. Less than one third of that figure came from private donations.

http://cfo.uconn.edu/ProjectBudgets/Intramural.pdf

You can paint it anyway you want, but the primary funding for the UConn football upgrade came from the taxpaper's pockets.

So what you're saying is that Georgetown could never raise $50 million in private donations for an FBS football practice facility?

[DFW HOYA]

So what you're saying is that Georgetown could never raise $50 million in private donations for an FBS football practice facility?

Georgetown hasn't yet been able to raise half that for a basketball practice facility--maybe the only Top 50 school without one.

[MplsBison]

So GU alums just don't do that well after graduation or they're just that cheap?

I don't buy either.

[Franks Tanks]

You were only eligible for such scholarships because you weren't born with a silver spoon in your mouth.

Once you were eligible, then yes your talent allowed you to be rewarded. I wasn't trying to discredit you or anyone who was awarded such scholarships. Obviously you have to be very talented to even make it into such schools.


My point has always been: once the student is admitted, why then is the question of aid determined by such a flawed principle?

Lafayette has merit based academic and athletic scholarships.

We also have need based aid available for all accepted students.

So great students get aid no matter how much money they have. Everyone else gets aid commesurate with need. WTF is so hard to understand about that?

[MplsBison]

Lafayette has merit based academic and athletic scholarships.

We also have need based aid available for all accepted students.

So great students get aid no matter how much money they have. Everyone else gets aid commesurate with need. WTF is so hard to understand about that?

Just not in football xrolleyesx

[DetroitFlyer]

Lost in this discussion is a very important factor.... People actually want to go to an Ivy or PL school. Granted, I do not really understand why, but the prospect of networking and future success is a strong draw. So, a good student that might have a full ride to some "State U" say in Montana or North Dakota just might choose an Ivy or PL school instead, even if he does not receive a full ride and has to incur some debt. The debt is just an investment in the future. Bottom line is that for the most part, a PL or Ivy education and degree is a good investment. I see it all the time in following recruiting, especially for the Ivy League. If a player is a top student, the Ivy will be after him. Just yesterday I saw a kid with offers from a ton of FBS programs and Yale. No offers from Montana or North Dakota.... I wonder why? Here is the deal. There is simply no "right" way to handle aid for students that happen to play football. Frankly, a school in the middle of nowhere is going to have to offer a full, athletic ride just to get kids to go there. Not many other reasons to make that decision. AND, that is fine. The Ivy League on the other hand will ALWAYS have more demand than supply so what is "right" for them is different. The PL is a tier below, but for the most part demand outstrips supply. Then the PFL comes into play. We "win" recruiting battles with the Ivy and PL all the time. Not every battle, but many of them. We all have our niche. Any reasonably intelligent person can easily see that and move on just enjoying the wonderful and DIVERSE world of FCS football.

[Franks Tanks]

Just not in football xrolleyesx

And the 18 or so other sports we dont have schoalrships for

[MplsBison]

Lost in this discussion is a very important factor.... People actually want to go to an Ivy or PL school. Granted, I do not really understand why, but the prospect of networking and future success is a strong draw. So, a good student that might have a full ride to some "State U" say in Montana or North Dakota just might choose an Ivy or PL school instead, even if he does not receive a full ride and has to incur some debt. The debt is just an investment in the future. Bottom line is that for the most part, a PL or Ivy education and degree is a good investment. I see it all the time in following recruiting, especially for the Ivy League. If a player is a top student, the Ivy will be after him. Just yesterday I saw a kid with offers from a ton of FBS programs and Yale. No offers from Montana or North Dakota.... I wonder why? Here is the deal. There is simply no "right" way to handle aid for students that happen to play football. Frankly, a school in the middle of nowhere is going to have to offer a full, athletic ride just to get kids to go there. Not many other reasons to make that decision. AND, that is fine. The Ivy League on the other hand will ALWAYS have more demand than supply so what is "right" for them is different. The PL is a tier below, but for the most part demand outstrips supply. Then the PFL comes into play. We "win" recruiting battles with the Ivy and PL all the time. Not every battle, but many of them. We all have our niche. Any reasonably intelligent person can easily see that and move on just enjoying the wonderful and DIVERSE world of FCS football.

There's an obvious correct way to handle aid for football players at the DI level: athletic scholarships.

That's the only acceptable way, in my opinion.


Any other way is non-compatible with the top level of college football.

[MplsBison]

And the 18 or so other sports we dont have schoalrships for

Thanks for confirming that Lafayette discriminates against student (-athletes) from wealthy families.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Thanks for confirming that Lafayette discriminates against student (-athletes) from wealthy families.

Hmm. That means that schools with athletic scholarships are discriminating against non-athletes who have to pay their way. Better scholarship everybody then. xrolleyesx

Wait a minute, that's what the Ivy League is doing already! xlolx

[MplsBison]

Hmm. That means that schools with athletic scholarships are discriminating against non-athletes who have to pay their way. Better scholarship everybody then. xrolleyesx

Wait a minute, that's what the Ivy League is doing already! xlolx

The entire basis of discrimination is that someone who is talented enough to receive the award is passed over for something irrelevant.

Family wealth is irrelevant when awarding athletic aid.

[Franks Tanks]

Thanks for confirming that Lafayette discriminates against student (-athletes) from wealthy families.

You're are so freakin stupid.

Does NDSU fully fund every sport?? Doubt it.

I guarantee kids on your Tennis dont have full scholarships-- they are getting aid available to all students in many cases.

[401ks]

Any reasonably intelligent person can easily see that and move on just enjoying the wonderful and DIVERSE world of FCS football.


However...


xrolleyesx


xoutofrepx

[MplsBison]

You're are so freakin stupid.

Does NDSU fully fund every sport?? Doubt it.

I guarantee kids on your Tennis dont have full scholarships-- they are getting aid available to all students in many cases.

Every single dollar of aid given to student athletes at NDSU, for every single sport, was awarded 100% on the basis of talent.

You will never see an NDSU coach say "____ looked really good out there, no doubt he'll be the starter! Wish I could give him more aid, he's earned it...if only he came from a poorer family!".

[DFW HOYA]

"Financial aid typically is awarded on the basis of financial need. The Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA) must be completed by all students requesting aid from NDSU."

http://www.ndsu.edu/prospective_students/cost/finaid.shtml

And yes, there are athletes at NDSU getting financial aid offers. The average NDSU male student athlete gets $5,743 per the EADA reports, the average female $8,487. At $13,023 a year, either way, there are some athletes not getting a full ride solely on merit.

[aceinthehole]

You may want to dig a little deeper because that facility cost almost $49,000,000! It was not funded primarily by private gifts. Less than one third of that figure came from private donations.

http://cfo.uconn.edu/ProjectBudgets/Intramural.pdf

You can paint it anyway you want, but the primary funding for the UConn football upgrade came from the taxpaper's pockets.

Great find UNH! Someone on the CCSU board has posted that the practice facility was mostly mostly funded by taxpayers and not from the Burtons - your link confirms that in balck and white! Of course the UConn website description focuses on the private donation, but of course that's not the full story.

[MplsBison]

"Financial aid typically is awarded on the basis of financial need. The Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA) must be completed by all students requesting aid from NDSU."

http://www.ndsu.edu/prospective_students/cost/finaid.shtml

And yes, there are athletes at NDSU getting financial aid offers. The average NDSU male student athlete gets $5,743 per the EADA reports, the average female $8,487. At $13,023 a year, either way, there are some athletes not getting a full ride solely on merit.

How many different red herrings can you put into one post?

Federal aid is need based. We weren't talking about federal aid. We were talking about aid given to student-athletes from the athletic department because they are athletes.

NDSU has never and will never give a student-athlete athletic aid on the basis of need.


Secondly, who was talking about full rides? No one said peep about full rides.

I don't think that every student-athlete deserves a full ride. Partial ride aid is acceptable, so long as it is award on the basis of talent, not need.

[MplsBison]

Great find UNH! Someone on the CCSU board has posted that the practice facility was mostly mostly funded by taxpayers and not from the Burtons - your link confirms that in balck and white! Of course the UConn website description focuses on the private donation, but of course that's not the full story.

So you're saying that GU is not capable of raising $49 million?


NDSU finished a fundraising campaign a few years ago that got over $100 million.

[Texcat34]

MplsBison is playing the role of the contrarian. Tell him the sky is blue and he'll say it's green.

If Georgetown offered no need-based aid he'd say the school is perpetuating an elite meritocracy. Offer no merit aid and he'll say that's unfair to smart kids.

Per US News, there are only 24 Division I schools offering full need financial aid. Of these, half (12) are in the Ivy or Patriot League, and the rest include places like Notre Dame, Duke, North Carolina, Boston College, Stanford, Virginia, and Northwestern. It's not surprise that these are Georgetown's academic peers because they share similar philosophies about providing affordable options for those who are qualified to attend their colleges but could not otherwise do so. (But then again, this is where MplsBison will respond that schools with strange ideas like this should all be in Division II and the conversation continues.)

http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/paying-for-college/2010/02/18/colleges-that-claim-to-meet-the-full-financial-needs-of-students.html

DFWHoya, you forgot Davidson, we have a program called the Davidson Trust that meets all demonstrated financial need for students (and athletes) as well.

[DJOM]

The cost of one year at Drake is now $35,090. The cost of one year at Butler is $38,760. IMHO, although funds might be available for scholarship football " Title IX" makes it impossible to even consider that option for these schools.

[DFW HOYA]

The cost of one year at Drake is now $35,090. The cost of one year at Butler is $38,760. IMHO, although funds might be available for scholarship football " Title IX" makes it impossible to even consider that option for these schools.

Title IX is not an impediment to going to scholarship football if department funding is comparable. (See Fordham.)

[Model Citizen]

These are schools that don't have an extra $2.5 million a year for football, let alone another $5 million a year for football and women's sports.