HBCU Conference From I-AA to I-A

[TexasTerror]

Interesting conversation on the SWAC boards today. There is discussion of creating a conference of the wealthier, more successful football schools in HBCU football. This conference of eight would theoretically, in the desire of those posting, either jump immediately to I-A or form in I-AA for a few years before making the jump on up to I-A.

One individual posted that these schools would be the ones under consideration:

1. Jackson State
2. Southern
3. Grambling
4. Florida A&M
5. Alabama State
6. TNState
7. SC State
8. North Carolina A&T

Everyone is going back and forth on this one. One guy says that unless schools are willing to make the commitment, most Div I HBCUs would be better served in Div II. Talk of lack of facilities is brought up as only two schools have the 30,000 seats that was once a big issue, but both of those schools use other facilities that are not their own.

I don't see it happening. If it did, it would have a negative impact on the other sports at these schools for sure in a similar fashion that it did to Louisiana-Monroe, among other schools that made an ill-advised jump.

http://www.swacpage.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=831862

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

You must really love our conference. :)

[*****]

...
1. Jackson State
2. Southern
3. Grambling
4. Florida A&M
5. Alabama State
6. TNState
7. SC State
8. North Carolina A&T
...Same old discussion and same old problems. Travel, no playoffs, etc.

[*****]

You must really love our conference. :)I know I do! :nod:

[gram4life]

You must really love our conference. :)

Man you didn't know, he has a firm grip on our ________

[TexasTerror]

You must really love our conference. :)

It's more of an issue of me be interested in teams on the move, whether from Div II to I-AA or from I-AA to I-A...

I've been following the Univ of Central Arkansas since it was announced they were making the move up. I can only hope SWAC member Arkansas-Pine Bluff is open to playing UCA at one point...in all sports!

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

I know I do! :nod:
I put your tape of SU vs JSU 03 and 04 in the mail today. When it gets there you tell me how many people where at the 03 game(first game). Remember JSU stadium holds 60,000. :)

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

I've been following the Univ of Central Arkansas since it was announced they were making the move up. I can only hope SWAC member Arkansas-Pine Bluff is open to playing UCA at one point...in all sports!
WHY

[*****]

I put your tape of SU vs JSU 03 and 04 in the mail today. When it gets there you tell me how many people where at the 03 game(first game). Remember JSU stadium holds 60,000. :)
:hurray: :hurray: :hurray: :beerchug: :xmas:

[FlyBoy8]

The biggest problem with this idea (aside from things like the large amount of money every school would have to spend on their football programs) is that it would leave the rest of the I-AA HBCUs in the dust. The remnants of the SWAC and MEAC would shrivel up and die, as far as athletics are concerned.

It's an interesting thought, but it'll never happen.

[Cap'n Cat]

It's an interesting thought, but it'll never happen.


Kinda like Northern Iowa beating New Hampshire on the road in the playoffs.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


:)

[TexasTerror]

WHY

Central Arkansas and Arkansas-Pine Bluff are in the same state and both, once UCA moves up to Div I (in all sports but football) next year and in football once it counts a I-AA team in 2007, would have no reason not to play in all sports.

These schools are seperated by 73 miles! The other Div I schools (Arkansas and Arkansas St) are not likely to play them in every sport, but UCA would be more than willing to play Ark-PB due to relative closeness which will help alot considering both schools have to travel long ways out of state for conference foes in the SLC and SWAC respectively...

If Ark-PB is against playing UCA in every sport imaginable, we can all say that the athletic administration of Pine Bluff is clueless to what benefits of having another Div I school so close to them are... :)

[walliver]

An HBCU 1-A conference is not that far fetched. Since they primarily play each other as it is, scheduling wound not be a problem. Lack of playoffs would not affect the SWAC since they don't participate anyway. A number of the attendance-challenged I-A bottom dwellars would love to schedule home-and-home series with these teams which generally travel well.

As far as other sports, neither the SWAC or MEAC are well-known in basketball or the olympic sports so there isn't much to lose there.

And, the "I-A" moniker would help get their games on more popular television outlets (possibly even the broadcast networks).

On the other hand, if not done properly it could be a replay of the FAMU fiasco.

[*****]

... Lack of playoffs would not affect the SWAC since they don't participate anyway...But half of that proposal are teams from playoff conferences and teams that have performed/won/been champion and they are not wanting to leave the playoff thing so quickly.

[GOKATS]

Hate to ask a stupid question, but what is HBCU? :confused:

[putter]

HBCU- Historically Black Colleges and Universities


Why couldn't they just play all "classic" games and then they would not have to worry about schools that have sub-par facilities?

[*****]

Same old discussion and same old problems. Travel, no playoffs, etc.Oops, I forgot the biggest reason of all, no money. Good ol' J Kenyatta Cavil (he was on I-AA WAVES recently and did the FAMU article in the 2004 preview mag) was asked which HBCUs were most ready to move to I-A and he said:
"As a scholar first, a individual with integrity, and the executive officer of THG Agency, I can not state one HBCU program that is most ready to make the move nor is there any HBCU program that is the most poised for a move in the future."

[TexasTerror]

Cavil is a class act. I've read his stuff and I've walked away impressed. He knows what he is talking about and knows just how to step out of the box and realize what is going on around the block...

[Tod]

Seems to me that proposed conference would be pretty strong and could very easily join the I-AA playoffs.

The only problem is what it would mean to the rest of the schools involved (or rather, left behind).

And, of course, whether or not they have any interest in joining the playoffs anyway.

[*****]

Seems to me that proposed conference would be pretty strong and could very easily join the I-AA playoffs.
The only problem is what it would mean to the rest of the schools involved (or rather, left behind).
And, of course, whether or not they have any interest in joining the playoffs anyway.You would still have the Bayou and Turkey Day Classics (involving 3 of the 4 SWAC teams includeed here) interfering with the playoffs.

[Tod]

You would still have the Bayou and Turkey Day Classics (involving 3 of the 4 SWAC teams includeed here) interfering with the playoffs.

I always forget...

[kardplayer]

But half of that proposal are teams from playoff conferences and teams that have performed/won/been champion and they are not wanting to leave the playoff thing so quickly.

I have to respectively disagree with you here. This is a lot more like UConn jumping directly into a good situation in the Big East than it is schools jumping in to a lame conference like the Sun Belt.

I would think a conference made up of these teams would have NO PROBLEM getting a contract for a bowl birth - they travel too well. The Liberty Bowl (in Memphis) currently has the only "at-large" bowl spot, and they are probably close enough to all of these schools that their fans would travel. The only "problem" is the Liberty Bowl has been routinely drawing 58,000, so there may not be much room for upside. However other bowls do struggle with attendance and could shuffle around their spots - I could see the New Orleans Bowl booting the Sun Belt winner or the GMAC bowl (Mobile Alabama) booting either the third place Conf USA or the runner up MAC team that goes there now. Worst case, you could make an argument that a new bowl game could be created pitting the SWAC champ against a Sun Belt team.


As for Ralph's point about who we're talking about - I resorted the list for discussion purposes - I don't see the "performed/won/been champion" statement backed up here:

SWAC schools - don't play in the playoffs anyway, really shouldn't be a major difference to them whether they play in I-A or I-AA (SWAC entry year in parentheses - used in point below)
1. Jackson State (1958)
2. Southern (1934)
3. Grambling (1958)
5. Alabama State (1982)

MEAC/OVC schools - playoff record overall and in last 10 years in parenthesis
4. Florida A&M (5-6/3-6) - they have the first ever NC, but you know they were already interested in moving up
6. TNState - (2-5/0-2)
7. SC State - (2-2/0-0)
8. North Carolina A&T - (1-4/1-2)

The one reason I think they wouldn't want to do this is the schools might not want to blow up the SWAC and MEAC. It was easy for Miami, BC, and Va. Tech to destroy the Big East - only one of them had been in there for more than 20 years. 3 of the 4 SWAC schools have been there since the 50's or earlier.

Do I think its an idea that can work for the 8 schools - absolutely. I think the conference affiliations - not any playoff history - are too strong though for the schools to want to do it.

What would be interesting though is if the MEAC and SWAC were both to jump up basically in their entirety. Then, they could create a bowl between the winners that would draw a massive crowd...

[kardplayer]

I forgot one point - they could still easily play the Bayou and Turkey Day Classics...

[*****]

...Do I think its an idea that can work for the 8 schools - absolutely. I think the conference affiliations - not any playoff history - are too strong though for the schools to want to do it...As a I-A conference none of them can afford it. As a I-AA conference they can't afford it (check out the thread and Cavil's analysis http://www.swacpage.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=831862 ) and none of the non-SWAC schools would be willing to give up the playoffs.

[TexasTerror]

I do not think the entire SWAC nor the entire MEAC can jump. It'd have to be parts of both and then, if they jump, do they revert back to the SWAC and MEAC as we know it for other sports? Traveling in the non-revenue sports and even basketball would be a pain in the SWAC and MEAC. Heck, the SWAC schools already bus to their conference opponents (10+ hour trips in a few cases).

Some of these schools, they just do not have the money nor the facilities at quite a few of these schools to make the jump and it'd have an amazingly negative impact on other sports that are already neglected and hurting...

[*****]

... Some of these schools, they just do not have the money nor the facilities at quite a few of these schools to make the jump...Which ones do you think have the money or facilities to move to I-A (keeping in mind that Cavil already said none of them do or will anytime soon)?

[kardplayer]

If the entire conferences jump, what's the incremental cost? They'd play basically the exact same schedule.

If the 8 noted teams jump, I'm sure they could fill their OOC with previously conference opponents - the incremental cost would be flying to at max 2 more games a year. The cash from a successful bowl game could cover most of that cost. The comment someone had about a TV contract also plays in here - I could see ESPN2 showing a game of the week on a Thursday or Friday night.

Also, if the 8 jump, they could jump for football only - leaving no impact on the non-revenue sports.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I really don't see the playoffs being a huge factor here. These schools have almost no playoff history (as I noted) to "turn their back on", and FAMU was ready to make the jump but fell short because of economic factors that would largely be eliminated in this solution.

[*****]

If the entire conferences jump, what's the incremental cost?... Maybe I'm missing something, but I really don't see the playoffs being a huge factor here. These schools have almost no playoff history...I mentioned playoffs as a I-AA conference. Did you read Cavil's comments on the state of finances? I am not going to restate it all here.

[kardplayer]

I mentioned playoffs as a I-AA conference. Did you read Cavil's comments on the state of finances? I am not going to restate it all here.

Do you have a link - I have never heard of "Cavil's comments" before this thread...

And what do you think the incremental cost is? Is there a I-A requirement to have more scholarships?

[*****]

Do you have a link - I have never heard of "Cavil's comments" before this thread...Um, yes (I gave it to you two replies ago too) http://www.swacpage.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=831862

The link is also in the opening message of this thread. :p

Maybe it is his handle at TSPN (and AGS) that threw you off... it is Jafus (thinker)

[*****]

Do you have a link - I have never heard of "Cavil's comments" before this thread...Okay, here is one post he made in the thread and he goes on in others to clarify and defend it...
To The Board,

I once personally, supported and advocated such a move by HBCU programs even if it meant that Prairie View A & M University would probably be left behind at the I-AA level. Because, I felt the I-AA level aloud our programs to operate our athletic programs in what I refer to as “purgatory”, which is in the middle of Division II or I-A without truly funding our programs at the Division I level.

Now, with further experience and research behind THG Agency consulting and my TSU Doctoral Education Administration and Leadership Foundation studies, it is becoming painfully obvious that if our HBCU presidents/chancellors and more importantly HBCU alums are not going to support our athletic programs financially more than what we are currently, the real direction of our programs may need to seriously look at operating on the Division II level.

Our alums (this does not include the die-hards and fanatics on TSPN website and avid booster supporters) are not financially supporting our athletic programs with any significant amount of pledges and revenue at this time. It is difficult to imagine a move to I-A would change this fact. While many of the schools in the Sunbelt Conference and MAC are not historically significant and are small in our minds, they are not small in terms of their average enrollment, 15~25K.

This is significant once you consider the facts that HBCUs largest one location (own campus) enrollment does not reach 13K, which is not very closed to 15K among those schools in the Sunbelt Conference and MAC. This may not seem to be a big factor, but once you factor in alums graduating from the schools over the years and their ability and more importantly their willingness to support their athletic programs with dollars as opposed to just attendance in the sits for football.

As well as, the even more important money associated with that student enrollment in the form of student activity fees associated with this enrollment. Then it becomes more obvious the difficulty involved in the financial stability of HBCU athletic programs operating at the NCAA I-A level.

It should be noted that once you view the average operating athletic budgets at the I-AA level, most if not just about all of our HBCUs are not maintaining the I-AA average operating athletic budget. This means that our HBCU presidents/chancellors and/or HBCU alums either do not have or are not willing to increase their athletic operating budget to financially compete at the I-AA level across the board.

So, what makes you realistically believe HBCU presidents/chancellors and HBCU alums can or are willing to change this fact to just maintain a viable program at the NCAA I-A level?

Think About It!!

[TexasTerror]

Which ones do you think have the money or facilities to move to I-A (keeping in mind that Cavil already said none of them do or will anytime soon)?

I think there are some further along than others (i.e FAMU, Grambling). Maybe not able $$$-wise or facility-wise to make the jump, but there are definitely some further along, especially compared to a few others who made ill-advised jumps...

[Tod]

I think there are some further along than others (i.e FAMU, Grambling). Maybe not able $$$-wise or facility-wise to make the jump, but there are definitely some further along, especially compared to a few others who made ill-advised jumps...

Other than a name change, what would be the point of a move to I-A? Will they (if offered) play in a bowl? I know their classics will be over by then, but what are the odds they will be invited?

Will they fund scholarships to 85, or the minimum (whatever that is, I don't remember).

Maybe it's kind of a way of trying to be a I-A Ivy, with no plans of competition outside their own arenas, but still being "above" those of us in I-AA.

[TexasTerror]

Other than a name change, what would be the point of a move to I-A? Will they (if offered) play in a bowl? I know their classics will be over by then, but what are the odds they will be invited?

If they hop into the fray, I'm sure another bowl game would create itself without question. Would probably take place here in the south somewhere and would draw well. Or this team would knock a team out of the GMAC (Mobile), New Orleans or another bowl down in the south...


Will they fund scholarships to 85, or the minimum (whatever that is, I don't remember).

They had better if they jump I-A. If not, what's the point? This is a thing that I think would be tough for them to pull off...

[UAalum72]

And what do you think the incremental cost is? Is there a I-A requirement to have more scholarships?
Yes, a 2-year rolling average of 90% of the maximum for football (=76.5) included in a minimun of 200 athletic grants-in-aid or $4 million per year. Also I-A requires 16 sports (at least 10 women's) instead of 14 for I-AA.

See page 386 of 510 in the 2005-06 NCAA handbook (http://www.ncaa.org/library/membership/division_i_manual/2005-06/2005-06_d1_manual.pdf)

[kardplayer]

Okay, here is one post he made in the thread and he goes on in others to clarify and defend it...

Ralph - There are no facts in this quote - nothing about incremental costs at all, only some comment about them coming from incremental fees. There's some comment about the size of the student body, but really what does that matter?

The all to one conference question is a key fact here. If the question was about one team jumping, then I can see the point about remaining competitive in a Sun Belt league where the rest of the schools are playing by a different set of rules. But as a whole league, they can set their own rules (as the Patriot and Ivy have in I-AA) to maintain competitive balance within the league and set the scholarship level lower.

On top of that, what is the true cost of an incremental scholarship anyway? If there were 20 extra students in the student body (assuming move from somewhere just south of 53 to the 70+ required), its not like they'd have to hire new professors or new staff to deal with them. For a school of 4,000 (Grambling has 4,400 for example), we're talking about growing the student body by 0.5%. They might need a few more dorm rooms, but even then there must be some additional capacity they can find. (I'm going to start a new thread on this)

The only truly scary fact I see is having to grow by as many as 2 other sports to meet I-A standards. If anything is the deal breaker, that would be it, because the incremental costs involved with running more teams would be large. I know the NCAA doesn't grant waivers very often, but these teams would have to get one on that point to make the jump.

[kardplayer]

One of the questions here is also about competitiveness on the I-A level. The teams don't need to compete with most of I-A - just with each other.

[*****]

... There's some comment about the size of the student body, but really what does that matter?... what is the true cost of an incremental scholarship anyway?... They might need a few more dorm rooms, but even then there must be some additional capacity they can find... The only truly scary fact I see is having to grow by as many as 2 other sports to meet I-A standards... I know the NCAA doesn't grant waivers very often, but these teams would have to get one on that point to make the jump.I think his point (and I wish he'd get over here and state it) was they can't fund I-AA and what makes you think they can fund I-A. Student body size counts, incremental scholarships count (I think he said $50K each), more dorm rooms ... sports... waivers... etc... Do you expect that when it has not happened to support I-AA standards?? Why?

Competitiveness doesn't matter. Money does and his point is (and I know he has researched it) it is not there and won't be soon.

[Sly Fox]

Personally I can see it happening ... but only if there is some governmental help. There would certainly be some state legislature inclinations to give additional funding to cover the increased cost of scholarships necessary to make the next step up. You can add some low cost sports and just schedule each other in order to meet the 16-sports minimum.

It probably won't happen but this is certainly a feasible scenario. It might make getting a real television contract more plausible.

On a very selfish level, that new league would leave out several schools who would be attractive to our conference namely Hampton, NC A&T and SC State. :smiley_wi

[TexasTerror]

Personally I can see it happening ... but only if there is some governmental help. There would certainly be some state legislature inclinations to give additional funding to cover the increased cost of scholarships necessary to make the next step up. You can add some low cost sports and just schedule each other in order to meet the 16-sports minimum.

No chance the state legislature here in Texas helps out TxSo or PVA&M as it relates to athletics. They just don't do that in Texas. I am not sure the Louisiana legislature, ravaged with all that Rita/Katrina spending would be willing to help out Grambling or Southern at all. Would other states be willing to do so?