LFN: A Way to Save the Patriot League?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/01/way-to-save-patriot-league.html


For sure it's a challenging atmosphere out there. But challenging atmospheres also lead to opportunities - ones that the Patriot League could, with a little creativity, use to become a better, more secure league.

It will require new vision, throwing out old ideas, and embracing new ones. And they're worth considering. (And you don't need to be Superman to implement them, either.)

It's time for folks to face facts: the best way to protect and expand the Patriot League brand is to do something different. (And you'll want to read more, I'm sure. xcoolx )

[DFW HOYA]

Can we please, please stop this idea that Georgetown and Bucknell are candidates for the Pioneer League? There's nothing that either school has suggested in this regard, and I can clearly say the Pioneer is not something Georgetown aspires to--nothing against our Dayton friends out there, but GU would sooner be an independent than to afford a cross-country schedule.

What the PL should be concerned about is a scenario where the NEC picks up these two schools and goes to divisional play, at which time the PL's autobid goes away for good.

[WestCoastAggie]

The Patriot League is threatening to dissolve?

[WestCoastAggie]

I stand corrected lol.

Anyways, wouldn't the Patriot have to offer scholly's before they extend invites to UNH and Maine? They seem to be doing fine combating the travel costs they have in the CAA.

[Model Citizen]

It's time for folks to face facts: the best way to protect and expand the Patriot League brand is to do something different.

Child, pleeze. Bucknell is an all-sports member. They aren't going anywhere.

[henfan]

So what's the incentive for UMaine & UNH to voluntarily leave what is arguably the most competitive FCS conference for one that is middle of the pack? The PL would represent very little difference in terms of travel for the UM and, in fact, might require more travel. Unless UMaine is busing their FB team 8-12 hours to games in NY, PA & DC, the PL would not save them. What rivals currently exist for UM in the PL? They've only played Holy Cross twice in the modern era. Seems like an incredible reach to take this idea seriously.xtwocentsx

[Pard94]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/01/way-to-save-patriot-league.html



It's time for folks to face facts: the best way to protect and expand the Patriot League brand is to do something different. (And you'll want to read more, I'm sure. xcoolx )


Ever stop to consider what kind of an impact a headline like "Save the Patriot League" might have on recruiting in the Patriot League? My first suggestion to save the league would be to stop implying it's destruction is at hand.

[LUHawker]

LFN, I love the creativity and outside the box thinking that you've displayed here, but I think you may be a little too far outside the box. I think you are wildly underestimating the foundations upon which the PL was founded in suggesting Maine and UNH. The PL wants like-minded and like-patterned schools and I don't think these two do it. Moreover, you clearly approach this from an athletics POV, which in theory is exactly how you should, but the reality is that representation in the league is more than just athletics. Add to this that while these two schools might shore-up football, it might not help travel costs for anyone, but UNH and Maine, with the possible exception of Holy Cross. I like UNH on Lehigh's schedule as an OOC, but I don't know how jazzed I'd be about that lengthy trip.

To your credit, it appears you are at least thinking about creative solutions, whereas the PL leadership gives no indication that it is also doing so.

Lastly, I don't think the Towson experiment is looked upon that well by the league, despite the need to hold its nose and affiliate with them.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't think the Towson experiment is looked upon that well by the league, despite the need to hold its nose and affiliate with them.

I agree, but if you look at UNH's and Maine's academic profiles (SAT/GPA averages) they're actually slightly higher than Towson's. I'm guessing too if you only apply an academic index to their out-of-state applicants, too, you'd get even higher (PL-like) numbers.

And I hesitate to bring up this old chestnut again, but if the PL is going to cross off "public university" off its list of potential applicants, the question becomes - again - who's "good enough"? Marist isn't. Monmouth isn't. Duquesne isn't. If Johns Hopkins or RPI wants to pursue D-I athletics, the entire PL office will be on the presidents' lawn the next day serenading them. Same if Villanova or Richmond stated that they want to leave the CAA in football. But those things are, charitably, not likely to happen.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The Patriot League does not need saving. What on earth would compel Bucknell to choose to leave the PL as a full member? Why would Georgetown trade its schedule of bus trips and Ivy home games for the PFL? I am very fond of UNH, Maine and URI - always have been. With good reason, too - they have way too much sense to disassociate themselves with the CAA.

The PL had its chance to change direction and at one time or another it had the opportunity to include each of the private schools that played in the CAA this year. The league chose not to make the adjustments necessary to bring them in, so they went elsewhere.

No, LFN, I have to respectfully disagree. I like the PL the way it is. The scholarship issue must be addressed, but I like it the way it is. With a small conference, we each have plenty of OOC games, and we all can schedule UNH, URI and Maine as often as we like, as we always have. Those schools have no reluctance whatsoever to play us. They just don't want to be us. Can't blame them at all.

[DFW HOYA]

And I hesitate to bring up this old chestnut again, but if the PL is going to cross off "public university" off its list of potential applicants, the question becomes - again - who's "good enough"? Marist isn't. Monmouth isn't. Duquesne isn't. If Johns Hopkins or RPI wants to pursue D-I athletics, the entire PL office will be on the presidents' lawn the next day serenading them. Same if Villanova or Richmond stated that they want to leave the CAA in football. But those things are, charitably, not likely to happen.

The PL executives want a world that does not exist.

Right now there are really four PL schools. HC is an anomaly--if it weren't for Fr. Brooks, Holy Cross would be in the Big East or alongside Villanova in the CAA by now, and there are some who know HC could aspire for higher things if its administration had some vision. Fordham is on the way out, and Georgetown/American are the outliers--excepting John Feinstein, the PL remains a non-entity in Washington.

The PL leadership wants football schools (strike Boston University, Fairfield) that want an all-sports relationship (sorry, Duquesne), that are private (disqualify Albany, Stony Brook, New Hampshire, Maine, Rhode Island), academically "prestigious" (pass on Wagner, Marist, Monmouth) that have name recognition (Bryant? Who's Bryant?), are located in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, or New England (no thanks VMI, Davidson, Dayton), that will invest $3-5 million in football a year (no sale for Northeastern, Hofstra) and are willing to institute an Ivy League academic index at the expense of its regional and national competition (see "Whatever Happened To Villanova, Richmond, and William & Mary?").

What's left? Nothing. Unless Hobart and Johns Hopkins come calling, the PL has no expansion targets within their expectations, which will lead to trouble when Colgate decides it wants to follow Fordham's scholarship lead and there is no one left to fill the gap, or, the aforementioned NEC scenario above.

[colorless raider]

Ever stop to consider what kind of an impact a headline like "Save the Patriot League" might have on recruiting in the Patriot League? My first suggestion to save the league would be to stop implying it's destruction is at hand.

AGREED. In fact I hear recruiting is coming along fine.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What's left? Nothing. Unless Hobart and Johns Hopkins come calling, the PL has no expansion targets within their expectations, which will lead to trouble when Colgate decides it wants to follow Fordham's scholarship lead and there is no one left to fill the gap, or, the aforementioned NEC scenario above.

Ironically, Hobart would almost certainly never be a candidate. Hobart was shown the door in Patriot League Lacrosse after Navy decided to finally join, necessitating their move to the ECAC.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-87550233.html


The Hobart College lacrosse team, which represented the Patriot League in two of the last three NCAA Division I tournaments, will be evicted from the league after the 2004 season.

The league decided recently to adopt a plan that excludes all associate members in sports other than football. Hobart is a lacrosse-only participant.

"The decision was based on an effort to streamline and be more efficient with our scheduling," said Tom Byrnes, the league's assistant executive director for media relations. "The long-term focus is on the eight full members."

That's why I chose RPI. But I agree 100% with your conclusion.

[Model Citizen]

Why would Georgetown trade its schedule of bus trips and Ivy home games for the PFL?

What does the Ivy League have to do with this? PFL teams play the Ivies too.

A more direct answer to your question is that the PFL will have an automatic bid to the NCAA playoffs in two years. While Georgetown has roughly the same talent as Davidson, that puts them low-middle of the pack in the PFL. If the Hoya's goal is to reach the playoffs, they could get halfway there simply by changing leagues.

[LUHawker]

Ironically, Hobart would almost certainly never be a candidate. Hobart was shown the door in Patriot League Lacrosse after Navy decided to finally join, necessitating their move to the ECAC.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-87550233.html



That's why I chose RPI. But I agree 100% with your conclusion.

RPI would be a perfect candidate, but for its DIII status. Fits all of the criteria, but this extremely crucial one. As much as I'd welcome RPI, I believe it is a long-shot at best.

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown has roughly the same talent as Davidson, that puts them low-middle of the pack in the PFL.

Why do you think Georgetown's talent level is where it is? Because for the past ten years, prior to the supposed AI changes, a LOT of recruits couldn't get in the door that got an offer elsewhere. A lot.

[Model Citizen]

I'm not using rocket science. Your team lost to Marist. With that in mind, look at the PFL standings.

[Fordham]

...The PL leadership wants football schools (strike Boston University, Fairfield) that want an all-sports relationship (sorry, Duquesne), that are private (disqualify Albany, Stony Brook, New Hampshire, Maine, Rhode Island), academically "prestigious" (pass on Wagner, Marist, Monmouth) that have name recognition (Bryant? Who's Bryant?), are located in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, or New England (no thanks VMI, Davidson, Dayton), that will invest $3-5 million in football a year (no sale for Northeastern, Hofstra) and are willing to institute an Ivy League academic index at the expense of its regional and national competition (see "Whatever Happened To Villanova, Richmond, and William & Mary?").


very well put.

[DetroitFlyer]

Pretty easy to save the PL, or PFL East as I like to call it.... Stop trying to be the Ivy League and the State U at the same time and the problem is solved. Kind of funny that so many smart people, (granted not PFL smart), cannot figure this out rather easily on their own....

Let me make this easy for you.

1. Adopt and embrace the Ivy League / PFL aid model.

2. Throw away the AI, (there is now and will only ever be one Ivy League).

Problem solved.

I will not even charge you my normal, huge consulting fee....

Frankly, it helps the PFL a great deal that the Ivy League and the PL have an AI. We are more than happy to take a kid with a 3.5 GPA and slightly above average test scores that cannot pass Ivy/PL muster. Not only will we take him, we will offer him a decent aid package, not dependent on athletic ability.

As I said, this is not difficult. The root cause of this problem is that the PL cannot figure out a way to be Harvard and Montana at the same time.... Guess what, it cannot be done!

[Model Citizen]

We are more than happy to take a kid with a 3.5 GPA and slightly above average test scores that cannot pass Ivy/PL muster.


Hold on Flyer!

Dayton is not slumming it on eastern league rejects. At most, there might be three PFL schools taking recruits who can't make the AI minimum.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I hope this thread dies very soon.

[DetroitFlyer]

Hold on Flyer!

Dayton is not slumming it on eastern league rejects. At most, there might be three PFL schools taking recruits who can't make the AI minimum.

I never said Dayton....

[Sader87]

The PL executives want a world that does not exist.

Right now there are really four PL schools. HC is an anomaly--if it weren't for Fr. Brooks, Holy Cross would be in the Big East or alongside Villanova in the CAA by now, and there are some who know HC could aspire for higher things if its administration had some vision. Fordham is on the way out, and Georgetown/American are the outliers--excepting John Feinstein, the PL remains a non-entity in Washington.

The PL leadership wants football schools (strike Boston University, Fairfield) that want an all-sports relationship (sorry, Duquesne), that are private (disqualify Albany, Stony Brook, New Hampshire, Maine, Rhode Island), academically "prestigious" (pass on Wagner, Marist, Monmouth) that have name recognition (Bryant? Who's Bryant?), are located in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, or New England (no thanks VMI, Davidson, Dayton), that will invest $3-5 million in football a year (no sale for Northeastern, Hofstra) and are willing to institute an Ivy League academic index at the expense of its regional and national competition (see "Whatever Happened To Villanova, Richmond, and William & Mary?").

What's left? Nothing. Unless Hobart and Johns Hopkins come calling, the PL has no expansion targets within their expectations, which will lead to trouble when Colgate decides it wants to follow Fordham's scholarship lead and there is no one left to fill the gap, or, the aforementioned NEC scenario above.

Extremely well put....though I did throw up in my mouth a tad on how well you categorized HC's situation/institutional choices.

[ngineer]

The Patriot League does not need saving. What on earth would compel Bucknell to choose to leave the PL as a full member? Why would Georgetown trade its schedule of bus trips and Ivy home games for the PFL? I am very fond of UNH, Maine and URI - always have been. With good reason, too - they have way too much sense to disassociate themselves with the CAA.

The PL had its chance to change direction and at one time or another it had the opportunity to include each of the private schools that played in the CAA this year. The league chose not to make the adjustments necessary to bring them in, so they went elsewhere.

No, LFN, I have to respectfully disagree. I like the PL the way it is. The scholarship issue must be addressed, but I like it the way it is. With a small conference, we each have plenty of OOC games, and we all can schedule UNH, URI and Maine as often as we like, as we always have. Those schools have no reluctance whatsoever to play us. They just don't want to be us. Can't blame them at all.

Damn. This is about the second time in a month I've agreed with you.;)
The PL is a pretty good league overall considering its mission. The only screwed up sport is football. That is all that needs to be fixed with some form of scholarships to make us more competitive on a national basis.

[busybee14]

The PL executives want a world that does not exist.

Right now there are really four PL schools. HC is an anomaly--if it weren't for Fr. Brooks, Holy Cross would be in the Big East or alongside Villanova in the CAA by now, and there are some who know HC could aspire for higher things if its administration had some vision. Fordham is on the way out, and Georgetown/American are the outliers--excepting John Feinstein, the PL remains a non-entity in Washington.

The PL leadership wants football schools (strike Boston University, Fairfield) that want an all-sports relationship (sorry, Duquesne), that are private (disqualify Albany, Stony Brook, New Hampshire, Maine, Rhode Island), academically "prestigious" (pass on Wagner, Marist, Monmouth) that have name recognition (Bryant? Who's Bryant?), are located in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, or New England (no thanks VMI, Davidson, Dayton), that will invest $3-5 million in football a year (no sale for Northeastern, Hofstra) and are willing to institute an Ivy League academic index at the expense of its regional and national competition (see "Whatever Happened To Villanova, Richmond, and William & Mary?").

What's left? Nothing. Unless Hobart and Johns Hopkins come calling, the PL has no expansion targets within their expectations, which will lead to trouble when Colgate decides it wants to follow Fordham's scholarship lead and there is no one left to fill the gap, or, the aforementioned NEC scenario above.

Wesleyan ? Bentley ? I know you already mentioned RPI, but It makes the most sense and they have plenty of money.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Wesleyan ? Bentley ? I know you already mentioned RPI, but It makes the most sense and they have plenty of money.

RPI has a brand-new (October 2009), $92 million FCS-ready athletic complex as well. Once common thread at PL schools is very strong engineering focus.


http://www.rpi.edu/giving/image/athletic_village.jpg



Look ready for a Colgate game to me.

[aceinthehole]

RPI has a brand-new (October 2009), $92 million FCS-ready athletic complex as well.
http://www.rpi.edu/giving/image/athletic_village.jpg

Don't show that pic, Albany fans (and CCSU ones for that matter) will get very jealous ;)

That is a fantasic facility for a D-III team and I wish CCSU had the $$$ and plans to build that, instead of what we have/planning.

If Albany built something like that, Dane fans would be very happy.

[UAalum72]

Don't show that pic, Albany fans (and CCSU ones for that matter) will get very jealous ;)

That is a fantasic facility for a D-III team and I wish CCSU had the $$$ and plans to build that, instead of what we have/planning.

If Albany built something like that, Dane fans would be very happy.
Jealous only of the money available. The stadium is great as far as it goes, but only holds 5,200. The $92 million includes the cost of the entire East Campus Athletic Village, renovations to the hockey arena, weight and locker rooms, and other sports facilities

[DFW HOYA]

http://www.rpi.edu/giving/image/athletic_village.jpg


Ironically, this looks like one of the early designs for Georgetown's unnamed "Multi-Sport Facility".


http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/images/msf-2.jpg

[Pard94]

Jealous only of the money available. The stadium is great as far as it goes, but only holds 5,200. The $92 million includes the cost of the entire East Campus Athletic Village, renovations to the hockey arena, weight and locker rooms, and other sports facilities

Oh...I assumed there were stands on the other side. 5,200 is a rather pawltry capacity. It sure looks purty though.

[Pard94]

They can't all look like this...oohh...ahhh...

[Bogus Megapardus]

Oh...I assumed there were stands on the other side. 5,200 is a rather pawltry capacity. It sure looks purty though.

Small (though nicely-designed) visitor's bleachers on the other side. From an aerial, once can see the footprint for duplicating the home-side stands.

HOYAS - You may now start being ashamed of yourselves, if you would, please. You can build this. I know you can. Your friends at RPI will probably FedEx you the blueprints if you ask them nicely.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Ironically, this looks like one of the early designs for Georgetown's unnamed "Multi-Sport Facility".


http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/images/msf-2.jpg


If the NCAA bends the Boise State rule and allows silver and blue turf at MSF, will you build it? :)

[aceinthehole]

If the NCAA bends the Boise State rule and allows silver and blue turf at MSF, will you build it? :)

The NCAA allowed the University of New Haven (D-II) use the blue turf, and Bosie State wasn't happy.

http://http://www.newhaven.edu/athletics/documents/24278.jpg

http://www.newhaven.edu/athletics/information/facilities/4388/

http://www.newhaven.edu/athletics/news/24273/

[maristdb89]

I hope this thread dies very soon.

Agreed.

[centraljerseycat]

How about Gettysburg or Franklin & Marshall?

[Dane96]

RPI has a brand-new (October 2009), $92 million FCS-ready athletic complex as well. Once common thread at PL schools is very strong engineering focus.


http://www.rpi.edu/giving/image/athletic_village.jpg



Look ready for a Colgate game to me.

RPI raised an eyebrow of many when they added an "arena" to the complex; it only seats 1200 or so...definitely not the norm for DI sports. Most thought this complex would be for DI...and the football part definitely is. The rest was just a very expensive DIII set-up.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Agreed.

It's a bad thread if it suggests that the PL needs to be saved. It's a good thread if it morphs into building a nice, budget-conscious stadium at Georgetown with cool silver/gray turf and blue stands, and keeping Hoya football competitive and firmly in the PL.

Winning a game or two against Marist would be a good start, of course. xrolleyesx

[Bogus Megapardus]

How about Gettysburg or Franklin & Marshall?

. . . or Dickinson or Swarthmore. Great colleges (Gettysburg was once a frequent foe) but these are not D1-type schools, and never will be. That's where Carney's Uncle Artie wanted to take us, but we won't be going there.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Gettysburg:

Pros: History with Bucknell, Lafayette, Lehigh. The "Bullets" sponsor 24 sports and have just broken ground on a new $25 million athletics center.
Cons: Small FB field, possible ending of rivalry with McDaniel, no reported interest in moving to D-I sports

Shirk field:

http://gettysburgsports.com/images/2009/9/9/Shirk_Field.jpg

Franklin & Marshall:

Pros: Big Lafayette connection, with Troxell as HC, and have been a pipeline for Lafayette assistant coaches over the years. The "Diplomats" sponsor 28 sports intercollegiately.
Cons: Small FB field, no reported interest in moving to D-I sports

Sponaugle-Williamson Field:

http://godiplomats.com/images/facilities/DSC0070.JPG

Both beautiful D-III stadiums. S-W field reminds me a whole lot of LaSalle's old stadium, except it's beautiful natural grass instead of AstroPlay. But they're just that: D-III stadiums.

Worthy of note as well: any move up from D-III to D-I would require the "move-up moratorium" to be lifted as well as (at least) a four year transitional period. So even if F&M, RPI, Gettysburg and/or Johns Hopkins decided to upgrade and were knocking on the Patriot Leagues' door, the earliest they would be full members is 2016.

[RichH2]

Saving may be too much literary license for me. I like us now. I want the PL to improve with merit aid. Whether we lose a school or 2 not a pleasant thought but if changes are not made the PL as a football conference will cease to have relevance. The past season was actually quite good OOC with 3 teams in the top 25, and no schollies . Can that continue? Not sure.

Let us concentrate on recruiting for now. The overall tenor of this year's class will give us some better feel for the sport's ability to compete nationally in the future. PL wont lok at issue again til June.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's a bad thread if it suggests that the PL needs to be saved. It's a good thread if it morphs into building a nice, budget-conscious stadium at Georgetown with cool silver/gray turf and blue stands, and keeping Hoya football competitive and firmly in the PL.

Some might argue that getting merit-based football scholarships at Georgetown, in a league that includes Fordham, UNH and Maine, would be the best way to achieve this goal. But that won't happen in a world where these solutions are not even considered - or, in other words, folks come on here and say they "like things the way they are." Like it or not, the "way things are" in the Patriot League are going to change in one way or another in 2010.

[letsgopards04]

RPI has a brand-new (October 2009), $92 million FCS-ready athletic complex as well. Once common thread at PL schools is very strong engineering focus.


http://www.rpi.edu/giving/image/athletic_village.jpg



Look ready for a Colgate game to me.

Coming from RPIs neck of the woods I would love to have RPI in the PL. Upstate NY has a lot of football talent up for grabs and they could keep alot of players in state.

[RichH2]

Of course, change is inherent in any group, managing the change essential for growth. The ostrich approach by PL on most issues not particularly suited to survival as a viable sports entity at least as far as football fans of PL concerned. That said, expansion by itself is not a solution. As we have discussed ad nauseum, candidates for joining PL are few and far between. Whether we expand or contract, now is the time to reset PL parameters for aid. W/o it expansion is impossible and contraction ,if not in membership, then significance is definite

[maristdb89]

It's a bad thread if it suggests that the PL needs to be saved. It's a good thread if it morphs into building a nice, budget-conscious stadium at Georgetown with cool silver/gray turf and blue stands, and keeping Hoya football competitive and firmly in the PL.

Winning a game or two against Marist would be a good start, of course. xrolleyesx

Again, agreed less victories against Marist. xsmiley_wix

[Dane96]

Coming from RPIs neck of the woods I would love to have RPI in the PL. Upstate NY has a lot of football talent up for grabs and they could keep alot of players in state.

A lot of players who could:

A) afford the crazy tuition at RPI; and
B) are qualified under the API?

Not many kids are going to fit that bill.

[Franks Tanks]

A lot of players who could:

A) afford the crazy tuition at RPI; and
B) are qualified under the API?

Not many kids are going to fit that bill.

I think this assumptions are based on the fact that RPI would offer merit aid under the current PL structure should there ever be the slightest hint they would join the PL.

Also dont foget that RPI is a school full of men (72%) so title IX issues may be less prevelant for them. They are apparently the most male heavy school in the entire nation (military academies not counted). All these men need something to do in upstate NY and D-I sports may be a great diversion for them.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I think this assumptions are based on the fact that RPI would offer merit aid under the current PL structure should there ever be the slightest hint they would join the PL.

Also dont foget that RPI is a school full of men (72%) so title IX issues may be less prevelant for them. They are apparently the most male heavy school in the entire nation (military academies not counted). All these men need something to do in upstate NY and D-I sports may be a great diversion for them.

Russell Sage, a women's college, is right next door to RPI. The RPI men always have had something to do.

[Franks Tanks]

Russell Sage, a women's college, is right next door to RPI. The RPI men always have had something to do.

Good to hear they have access to some ladies

[Pard94]

Russell Sage, a women's college, is right next door to RPI. The RPI men always have had something to do.

Something or someone?xlolx

[Dane96]

Russell Sage, a women's college, is right next door to RPI. The RPI men always have had something to do.

No longer a women's college.

Albany's former DO for Basketball is now the Head Men's Basketball Coach at Sage.

That said, there is only one school in the Capitol District with hotties-- that's the girls from Northern Jersey, Rockland, Westchester, and Long Island who go to Albany. The saying when I attended Albany was: "Go to Duke, Delaware, Towson, fill-in-the-blank private or out of State school, and you get an Acura or Infinity. Go to Albany and you get the BMW."

The girls are hot...and more than pampered.

The girls of Sage-- I think that's where RPI recruited linebackers. ;)

[LBPop]

Ironically, this looks like one of the early designs for Georgetown's unnamed "Multi-Sport Facility".



http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/images/msf-2.jpg


Unnamed?? Of course it has a name. I believe that the University hired a consultant to come up with a name and "Multi-Sport Facility" was selected among dozens of suggestions. I believe that same consulting company wanted to re-name the school "That Bunch of Buildings in Northwest Washington, DC where Kids Learn Stuff". After much consideration, that suggestion was ultimately turned down by the office of "The Guy or Gal Who's Supposed to Decide Stuff"

xrolleyesx

[Bogus Megapardus]

No longer a women's college.

Albany's former DO for Basketball is now the Head Men's Basketball Coach at Sage.

That said, there is only one school in the Capitol District with hotties-- that's the girls from Northern Jersey, Rockland, Westchester, and Long Island who go to Albany. The saying when I attended Albany was: "Go to Duke, Delaware, Towson, fill-in-the-blank private or out of State school, and you get an Acura or Infinity. Go to Albany and you get the BMW."

The girls are hot...and more than pampered.

The girls of Sage-- I think that's where RPI recruited linebackers. ;)

The freaky ones all go to Skidmore.

[jimbo65]

Unnamed?? Of course it has a name. I believe that the University hired a consultant to come up with a name and "Multi-Sport Facility" was selected among dozens of suggestions. I believe that same consulting company wanted to re-name the school "That Bunch of Buildings in Northwest Washington, DC where Kids Learn Stuff". After much consideration, that suggestion was ultimately turned down by the office of "The Guy or Gal Who's Supposed to Decide Stuff"

xrolleyesx
As I recall, the facility is not yet complete. If that is true, how about Franz Schubert Stadium in honor of the "Unfinished Symphony".

[Franks Tanks]

The freaky ones all go to Skidmore.

My channel leader went to Skidmore.

I dont have a high opinion of Skidmore at the present time.

[Bogus Megapardus]

As I recall, the facility is not yet complete. If that is true, how about Franz Schubert Stadium in honor of the "Unfinished Symphony".

It might be "deemed complete." It has remained in its current configuration for quite a period of time. As I believe I mentioned in another thread, the construction fencing around MSF is so old, it's now listed in the National Registry of Historic Places.

Actually, it could be worse - they could engage in what I call "Avant-Parde" architecture at Lafayette. That's where you tear down a beautiful old stone building and replace it with a monstrosity that's designed to look sort of old, but fails miserably.



EDIT - I call dibs on "Avant-Parde." I can use it start a blog to challenge "Lehigh Football Nation" dogma.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Unnamed?? Of course it has a name. I believe that the University hired a consultant to come up with a name and "Multi-Sport Facility" was selected among dozens of suggestions. I believe that same consulting company wanted to re-name the school "That Bunch of Buildings in Northwest Washington, DC where Kids Learn Stuff". After much consideration, that suggestion was ultimately turned down by the office of "The Guy or Gal Who's Supposed to Decide Stuff"

xrolleyesx

I take back anything I ever said about Georgetown not belonging in the Patriot League. xlolx

[TheValleyRaider]

Russell Sage, a women's college, is right next door to RPI. The RPI men always have had something to do.

Yes, but surely you know what women say about engineering schools: The odds are good, but the goods are odd xsmiley_wix

[Jackman]

I'm thinking that a league which rejected Northeastern wouldn't even consider UNH and Maine. In fact I bet NU made one last call to the PL before they pulled the plug, and got no reprieve. The PL would look kind of silly to reverse course now.

[Bogus Megapardus]

In fact I bet NU made one last call to the PL before they pulled the plug, and got no reprieve.

"Hello, Patriot League? Northeastern here. Yes I'm fine. You're fine too? Well, then we're both fine. Say Patsie, now that I have you on the phone, we're thinking of dropping our football program because our facilities suck and we can't compete very well with the 'real' teams in the CAA. But before we do that, we figured we'd give you a call. We hear you guys really suck much worse so maybe you might take us in. If we slum it down to your level, we won't have to try very hard, spend much money, or accommodate your fans or players very well when they come here. Interested?"

[Bogus Megapardus]

Back to Georgetown's legendary, unbuilt Multi-Sport Field - The NCAA has the Boise State Rule concerning the color of the turf. But does it have a rule regarding the color of the sky?




http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/images/msf-1.jpg

[Go...gate]

Coming from RPIs neck of the woods I would love to have RPI in the PL. Upstate NY has a lot of football talent up for grabs and they could keep alot of players in state.

Colgate and RPI have played in many sports for many years...

[Bogus Megapardus]

Colgate and RPI have played in many sports for many years...

PL hockey, anyone?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm thinking that a league which rejected Northeastern wouldn't even consider UNH and Maine. In fact I bet NU made one last call to the PL before they pulled the plug, and got no reprieve. The PL would look kind of silly to reverse course now.

As much as I'd like that to be true, that's a load of baloney. Nobody at Northeastern wanted enough to save football. It was either stay in the CAA without football or nothing.

[GannonFan]

Back to Georgetown's legendary, unbuilt Multi-Sport Field - The NCAA has the Boise State Rule concerning the color of the turf. But does it have a rule regarding the color of the sky?




http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/images/msf-1.jpg



There is no "Boise State Rule" - that's an urban legend.

[letsgopards04]

I think this assumptions are based on the fact that RPI would offer merit aid under the current PL structure should there ever be the slightest hint they would join the PL.

Also dont foget that RPI is a school full of men (72%) so title IX issues may be less prevelant for them. They are apparently the most male heavy school in the entire nation (military academies not counted). All these men need something to do in upstate NY and D-I sports may be a great diversion for them.

RPI is developing its arts and business schools so I expect that M-F ration to make a move toward 60-40 so as the school diversifies Title IX could become an issue.

[bostonspider]

I really think that the CAA bears watching. I find it hard to believe that JMU is spending 62M on a FCS Facility. If they start to make the motions of moving up, I think that ODU will be following along with an expanded Foreman Field (New Sideline Stands). Georgia State is not long for FCS. So take those three away, and you are left with Towson, Delaware, UNH, UMass, URI (questionable), Maine, VU, UR and W&M. Given that crew, I think UD would strongly consider a move up as well. So I could see the northern schools & Towson splitting off with some Big South / NEC teams. This leaves the two privates (VU and UR) and the best public (W&M). If this comes to pass, how could their best option not be associating with a scholarship PL???

[aceinthehole]

There is no "Boise State Rule" - that's an urban legend.

There are no NCAA rules on the color of the field, but Boise State did put up a stink about UNH's blue turf.

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/09/24/sports/24_unhfield.txt

[Bogus Megapardus]

This leaves the two privates (VU and UR) and the best public (W&M). If this comes to pass, how could their best option not be associating with a scholarship PL???

Your lips/God's ears . . . . xnodx

[ngineer]

And that maybe the way it comes to path in the glacier-like speed of academia.."Let's just wait for the CAA to explode/implode/split up", so we'll just twiddle away for the next 3-4 years for that to happen.xsmhx

[Crusader2010]

And that maybe the way it comes to path in the glacier-like speed of academia.."Let's just wait for the CAA to explode/implode/split up", so we'll just twiddle away for the next 3-4 years for that to happen.xsmhx

This is the most likely response. I'm sure the PL powers that be will let Fordham go quietly into the night just like they did following the rift over bball scholarships fifteen years ago. Then we'll be a six-team league for a while until either the northern CAA schools split from the conference (which I find unlikely) or G'town drops football dropping membership down to five. In the second case, in order to maintain our AQ, we'd be forced into taking in either Marist or Sacred Heart.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

And that maybe the way it comes to path in the glacier-like speed of academia.."Let's just wait for the CAA to explode/implode/split up", so we'll just twiddle away for the next 3-4 years for that to happen.xsmhx

The Patriot League can not afford to do this, IMO. With seven FB members you can at least pretend things are stable. With six, you absolutely cannot.

I think getting lost by most PL fans is that Fordham is already one foot out the door. I get the impression from this thread that most people think that Fordham is and always will be in the PL. If the PL presidents think that it is an empty threat that Fordham will walk without merit-based aid, they might wake up one day and find a football conference without an autobid.

[Crusader2010]

The Patriot League can not afford to do this, IMO. With seven FB members you can at least pretend things are stable. With six, you absolutely cannot.

I think getting lost by most PL fans is that Fordham is already one foot out the door. I get the impression from this thread that most people think that Fordham is and always will be in the PL. If the PL presidents think that it is an empty threat that Fordham will walk without merit-based aid, they might wake up one day and find a football conference without an autobid.

Amen. I do not want to lose Fordham but for the record they are OUT. They've already made it clear that they would rather play as an indy w/ scholarships than comply with PL financial aid statutes. It's the same rift that occurred over hoops scholarships back in 1995. Fordham bolted and then 3 years later the league allowed scholarships. I would hate to lose a member over this issue and then see the league adopt scholarships in 2015 when another school threatens to leave. I agree, a six-team league is not something anyone should want or be okay with. Even though we'd keep the autobid with six, that would force the whole league to find six OOC opponents every year and we'd have no buffer between G'town dropping its program or another school leaving and a lost AQ.

[jimbo65]

The Patriot League can not afford to do this, IMO. With seven FB members you can at least pretend things are stable. With six, you absolutely cannot.

I think getting lost by most PL fans is that Fordham is already one foot out the door. I get the impression from this thread that most people think that Fordham is and always will be in the PL. If the PL presidents think that it is an empty threat that Fordham will walk without merit-based aid, they might wake up one day and find a football conference without an autobid.

LFN, I agree with you. At best, the current arrangement between Fordham & the PL is a "marriage of convenience", similar to a married couple staying together because of the cost of divorce and the loss of equity in the house due to the poor market.

Unfortunately the administrators are not like minded to the posters on this board. I suspect "contributing" alums were the real power behind the move to schollies.

Regardless of what Fordham does, it is in the best interest of the PL to give regular scholarships.

[Crusader2010]

Regardless of what Fordham does, it is in the best interest of the PL to give regular scholarships.

Exactly. That's why I'm hoping the league powers will utilize some common sense and act NOW to ensure Fordham stays in the league. Why make the same mistake we made 15 years ago with regards to Fordham? Contrary to what some may think, Fordham is 100% GONE unless the league takes drastic action soon.

[DFW HOYA]

Even though we'd keep the autobid with six, that would force the whole league to find six OOC opponents every year and we'd have no buffer between G'town dropping its program or another school leaving and a lost AQ.

You've cited this twice in the last three posts. Georgetown remains in the PL.

[Crusader2010]

And hopefully they'll be in the PL with a coach who can win some games. I would love to see the Hoyas follow in the footsteps of their rivals on the Main Line and become a player at the FCS level.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The PL leadership wants football schools (strike Boston University, Fairfield) that want an all-sports relationship (sorry, Duquesne), that are private (disqualify Albany, Stony Brook, New Hampshire, Maine, Rhode Island), academically "prestigious" (pass on Wagner, Marist, Monmouth) that have name recognition (Bryant? Who's Bryant?), are located in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, or New England (no thanks VMI, Davidson, Dayton), that will invest $3-5 million in football a year (no sale for Northeastern, Hofstra) and are willing to institute an Ivy League academic index at the expense of its regional and national competition (see "Whatever Happened To Villanova, Richmond, and William & Mary?").

What's left? Nothing. Unless Hobart and Johns Hopkins come calling, the PL has no expansion targets within their expectations, which will lead to trouble when Colgate decides it wants to follow Fordham's scholarship lead and there is no one left to fill the gap, or, the aforementioned NEC scenario above.

I bring up the following excellent post by DFW to get this thread back on track.

Let's bring up the D-I schools mentioned in this "post of the year" for a moment.

Four schools have dropped football in the last twenty years. There doesn't seem to be much chance to have these schools switch to the PL for any reason, let alone rejoin PL football.

Non-football: Hofstra, Northeastern, Fairfield, Boston University

There are only three schools committed to the non-scholarship model. Two are very far outside the footprint of the PL.

Non-scholarship: Dayton, Davidson, Marist

Six schools are partial scholarship, with two that seem to be either aspiring to 63 scholarships and four that seem - at a bare minimum - reluctant to go any further.

Partial Scholarship, Aspire to 63: Albany, CCSU
Partial Scholarship, Status Quo: Duquense, Monmouth, Wagner, Bryant

That leaves eight schools at 63 scholarships. I think it fair to say that none of these schools will "downgrade" in order to adhere to the PL model. Four went to the FCS playoffs last year, and five have been to the playoffs in the last two years. Two were national champions.

Full Scholarship: Stony Brook, New Hampshire, Maine, URI, Villanova, William & Mary, Richmond, VMI

****

Now, go through the 63 scholarship schools in their likelihood of leaving their existing conference:

Villanova: Extremely low. Defending NC. Won't leave Delaware, unless the Hens go FBS - and even then they might be tempted to jump to FBS, too.

Richmond: Extremely low. Former NC. Won't leave William & Mary or JMU in the CAA. Probably a package deal with W&M.

William & Mary: Extremely low. See "Richmond".

VMI: Medium. Always a wild card, they would have to salivate at joining the PL and the chance to face off against Army/Navy. I'm not sure the academies would allow it, however, in all sports. Plus, in the Big South they have relatively close rivals.

Stony Brook: Medium. The Big South can't be a long-term solution for them, and they're a regional fit for sure. But are they an academic fit, and would they be willing to play with an academic index? Signs point to no.

URI: Medium. Already have had multiple meetings on CAA's travel costs, and PL would offer more regional competition. Won't stay in a CAA if there isn't a "Northeast Four", but if they have to leave they seem more likely to join a NEC with Bryant and CCSU than a full-scholarship PL, since travel costs AND scholarship costs are big concerns.

UNH: High. Already have had multiple meetings on CAA's travel costs, and PL would offer more regional competition. Since most of roster is out-of-state, there wouldn't be a great advantage to in-state recruits. AI may not be an issue - UNH graduates football players, and has very good academics. Has long history playing PL teams. PL has an autobid already. Package deal with UMaine.

Maine: High. Package deal with UNH. See UNH.

***

With the developments over the last two months - granted, with scholarships and an expansion of the PL model to public schools once again - don't UNH and Maine just jump to the top of any expansion list?

Then the question becomes: If not them, who?

[GannonFan]

UNH: High. Already have had multiple meetings on CAA's travel costs, and PL would offer more regional competition. Since most of roster is out-of-state, there wouldn't be a great advantage to in-state recruits. AI may not be an issue - UNH graduates football players, and has very good academics. Has long history playing PL teams. PL has an autobid already. Package deal with UMaine.

Maine: High. Package deal with UNH. See UNH.

***

With the developments over the last two months - granted, with scholarships and an expansion of the PL model to public schools once again - don't UNH and Maine just jump to the top of any expansion list?

Then the question becomes: If not them, who?

How does the PL offer any better travel costs for UNH and Maine than the CAA does? UMass and URI are still in the CAA and they would be the same as say Holy Cross and Fordham. But Lehigh, Lafayette, Georgetown, and Bucknell would be just as costly to get to as UD, Towson, nova, and the Virginia schools are. Travel-wise, it's a wash for these schools to be in either conference.

[Bogus Megapardus]

And it comes full circle. I like the PL. I really do. It's not imploding - some here just seem to think it is. But I sincerely doubt UNH and Maine would ever consider leaving their current affiliation to sidle up to the patsies. In any event, which long-running Ivy League games does Lafayette give up for the chance to go to Orono and Durham? Just wondering . . . .

[Go...gate]

Saint Francis (PA), anyone?

Is it really that crazy an idea?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Saint Francis (PA), anyone?

Is it really that crazy an idea?

No, it isn't, and neither is Duquesne. I just don't think it's broke so it don't need fixin'.

[Go...gate]

If we are going to add somebody, it seems to me it that must be a private institution.

[DFW HOYA]

If we are going to add somebody, it seems to me it that must be a private institution.

It's this kind of thinking that will turn PL football into a collection of independents during this decade. If there are state schools, large or small, who will buy into the program, welcome them in.

[colorless raider]

Saint Francis (PA), anyone?

Is it really that crazy an idea?

YES! Please...

[Pard 82]

Franklin & Marshall:
Pros: Big Lafayette connection, with Troxell as HC, and have been a pipeline for Lafayette assistant coaches over the years. The "Diplomats" sponsor 28 sports intercollegiately.
Cons: Small FB field, no reported interest in moving to D-I sports

Further Lafayette connection: F&M President John Fry is a LC grad.

[Bogus Megapardus]

It's this kind of thinking that will turn PL football into a collection of independents during this decade. If there are state schools, large or small, who will buy into the program, welcome them in.

Moot point. There is no PL edict against state schools. Army and Navy are already full PL members. You don't get any more "state supported" than that. It's the "buying into the program" part that won't change (and I don't want it to change). No other state schools that I am aware of (except W&M and possibly Binghampton - but they don't play football) would ever buy into the program.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's this kind of thinking that will turn PL football into a collection of independents during this decade. If there are state schools, large or small, who will buy into the program, welcome them in.

And which ones RIGHT NOW would have to be most willing to come in? They'd have to be the CAA's northern affiliates.

[letsgopards04]

You've cited this twice in the last three posts. Georgetown remains in the PL.

Yeah we get it but they also do not seem overly committed to putting a quality product on the field and since I doubt the football program (as they run it) brings much to the school, it would be easy for the administration to cut it if the going got tough.

[henfan]

And which ones RIGHT NOW would have to be most willing to come in? They'd have to be the CAA's northern affiliates.

You make this comment based on what evidence? If a move to the PL wouldn't save them money, why would the CAA's NE schools want to make the move to a less competitive league where they have few rivals?

[Dane96]

The screwed up thing is that Albany and Stony Brook were both rejected back in the day not because of the AI (both agreed to it)...but because some PL schools thought it was a competitive advantage for both because of the cost of the tuition (i.e., even if kids had to pay their way, the cost would be MUCH cheaper than the private PL schools).

If the PL just took UA and SBU in...this likely would be a moot discussion right now.

[Bogus Megapardus]

why would the CAA's NE schools want to make the move to a less competitive league where they have few rivals?

They wouldn't. Thank you. (Having said that, UNH, URI and formerly Northeastern are long-time PL-member rivals - more so than most of the CAA teams.)


The screwed up thing is that Albany and Stony Brook were both rejected back in the day not because of the AI (both agreed to it)...but because some PL schools thought it was a competitive advantage for both because of the cost of the tuition (i.e., even if kids had to pay their way, the cost would be MUCH cheaper than the private PL schools).

If the PL just took UA and SBU in...this likely would be a moot discussion right now.

Army and Navy are PL members. They're free. I'm unaware of any consideration of a SUNY college, but I doubt comparative tuition cost is a factor - especially if the PL moves toward merit scholarships.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

The screwed up thing is that Albany and Stony Brook were both rejected back in the day not because of the AI (both agreed to it)...but because some PL schools thought it was a competitive advantage for both because of the cost of the tuition (i.e., even if kids had to pay their way, the cost would be MUCH cheaper than the private PL schools).

If the PL just took UA and SBU in...this likely would be a moot discussion right now.

Or if over the years, the PL modified its stance on scholarships and/or been less elitist, it might now have William & Mary, Richmond, Villanova, Hofstra and Northeastern.

IIRC, back in the late 80's the PL rejected UNH for the same competitive advantage reason. Of course there were a lot of bean counters at UNH then who bought into the fallacy of PL football being less expensive because of no scholarships.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

They wouldn't. Thank you. (Having said that, UNH, URI and formerly Northeastern are long-time PL-member rivals - more so than most of the CAA teams.)


Wasn't Delaware in the same league with Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell for many years? East Coast Conference as well as the older one where Gettysburg was also a member. xconfusedx

[Bogus Megapardus]

elitist

See any CAA thread on this board.


Wasn't Delaware in the same league with Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell for many years? East Coast Conference as well as the older one where Gettysburg was also a member.

Delaware was a "college division" school that played PL members (and Gettysburg) for eons. If I had suggested that Lehigh was a more natural rival to Delaware, the Blue Hens on this board would have been in an uproar.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

No, it isn't, and neither is Duquesne. I just don't think it's broke so it don't need fixin'.

If Fordham leaves and you have a six team league which includes one affiliate, will you consider it broke? If it was my conference, I might not think it was broke, but I'd be extremely concerned.

[Dane96]

They wouldn't. Thank you. (Having said that, UNH, URI and formerly Northeastern are long-time PL-member rivals - more so than most of the CAA teams.)



Army and Navy are PL members. They're free. I'm unaware of any consideration of a SUNY college, but I doubt comparative tuition cost is a factor - especially if the PL moves toward merit scholarships.

Not trying to argue with you on this one...but I was personally involved in those meetings (Student Board). It is how we got Brian DePisquale as our SID (he came from the PL...and built up a relationship).

Army and Navy are almost unfair points because a free education (easy recruiting) does not really compare to the prestige factor that those schools bring. Additionally, a "certain kid" wants to go to Army and Navy. The pool for them to recuit from, in some ways, is smaller.

But believe me...that was the EXACT excuse that Albany and Stony Brook got. Not making that up at all.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Moot point. There is no PL edict against state schools. Army and Navy are already full PL members. You don't get any more "state supported" than that. It's the "buying into the program" part that won't change (and I don't want it to change). No other state schools that I am aware of (except W&M and possibly Binghampton - but they don't play football) would ever buy into the program.

Please go do a little research about the Binghamton basketball program. I think you'll find a program that has been the opposite of a Patriot member in terms of philosophy.

FWIW, there's no "p" in Binghamton, NY.

[Dane96]

Bogus, to reall understand the process, Towson was gently nudged out of the PL...but of course they had "discussions" with the A-Ten during the nudge process. In fact, Towson was the exact reason that Albany and SBU got as "differing financial philosphies"; not that Towson had huge success in the PL.

Bogus...there are some people on this board (in addition to me) who were a part of the SBU/Albany to PL conversations. A little deference would be respectful.

Now, whether this is a truthful statement from the PL (regarding the competitive advantage) who knows...but that is what was said.

[Bogus Megapardus]

prestige factor

We are assessed by the company we keep in many of life's endeavors. This is what the PL has going for it; it cannot compete with state schools for tuition. One might choose to label this approach pejoratively, but it works for other conferences and it helps the PL as well.


Please go do a little research about the Binghamton basketball program. I think you'll find a program that has been the opposite of a Patriot member in terms of philosophy.

FWIW, there's no "p" in Binghamton, NY.


Bogus, to reall understand the process, Towson was gently nudged out of the PL...but of course they had "discussions" with the A-Ten during the nudge process. In fact, Towson was the exact reason that Albany and SBU got as "differing financial philosphies"; not that Towson had huge success in the PL.

Bogus...there are some people on this board (in addition to me) who were a part of the SBU/Albany to PL conversations. A little deference would be respectful.

Now, whether this is a truthful statement from the PL (regarding the competitive advantage) who knows...but that is what was said.

1. I spelled "Binghamton" wrong. 2. Towson was a PL mis-match in just about every respect. 3. I was unaware of any SUNY discussions; I'm not saying they didn't happen. 4. Binghamton's recruiting woes are well-known. The college has a PL profile, however, and would be a good geographic fit.

[Dane96]

Enjoy your PERSONAL elitist ideals (not shared by most PL graduates I have had the pleasure to meet, befriend, or work with)...

...and if that is your way of saying "I had no clue what I was talking about with regards to Albany and Stony Brook's application to the PL...my apologies", then you need some lessons on which utensil to use to eat humble pie: the fork or the spoon.

[Ken_Z]

Dane,

most of what you say sounds in line with what i heard back when the SUNY schools 'applied' for PL membership. i am not sure i am following you on your position re the validity of the state school advantage issue. seems to me this would be an advantage in a non-scholarship league, are you disputing this? even with merit aid now permissible in all sports other than football, most olympic sports have scholarship limits well below required roster size so this advantage would persist today.

[Franks Tanks]

Enjoy your PERSONAL elitist ideals (not shared by most PL graduates I have had the pleasure to meet, befriend, or work with)...

...and if that is your way of saying "I had no clue what I was talking about with regards to Albany and Stony Brook's application to the PL...my apologies", then you need some lessons on which utensil to use to eat humble pie: the fork or the spoon.

Its not elistst-- it is simply ideology and competitive balance.

We have difficult academic standards and dont offer traditional scholarships. We need schools who are similar to continue with a competitive league.

Albany and Stony Brook are fine schools, but that are major universities in the NY state system. They have little in common with liberal arts schools with less than 3k students.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

See any CAA thread on this board.


Well, that has nothing to do with this discussion. xrolleyesx

OK, maybe elitist wasn't the best description, but I was trying for a quick, short post. In this outsider's view, the Patriot League has a philosophy and standards that appear to be unsustainable in FCS Football. With everybody you've said "no" to over the years, there aren't any schools left that fit the Patriot profile. Seriously, what are your options?


Status quo -- lose Fordham, plug along as a six member league and hope that nobody else leaves or drops football?
Sequester yourselves into a NESCAC relationship with the Ivy/Pioneer?
Add a couple of private institutions that play football and get them up to PL academic standards?
Add some level of scholarships and hope Fordham stays?
Increase funding and go FBS so that Navy and Army would play Patriot football?


JMHO, but without scholarships/equivalencies at the counter level:


You'll lose Fordham
Even if the CAA implodes, W&M and Richmond would look to the SoCon before the Patriot.
Colgate and Holy Cross will seriously evaluate their continued participation.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Enjoy your PERSONAL elitist ideals (not shared by most PL graduates I have had the pleasure to meet, befriend, or work with)...

...and if that is your way of saying "I had no clue what I was talking about with regards to Albany and Stony Brook's application to the PL...my apologies", then you need some lessons on which utensil to use to eat humble pie: the fork or the spoon.

Dane, why don't you go ahead and ask UAlbany to join the Big 10 then?

[Dane96]

Dane,

most of what you say sounds in line with what i heard back when the SUNY schools 'applied' for PL membership. i am not sure i am following you on your position re the validity of the state school advantage issue. seems to me this would be an advantage in a non-scholarship league, are you disputing this? even with merit aid now permissible in all sports other than football, most olympic sports have scholarship limits well below required roster size so this advantage would persist today.

Not disputing the reasoning at all-- of course it would be an advantage in a non-scholarship league...and a merit based league.

I was just pointing out that the problem could have been solved in some ways-- I am sure someone could have come up with a bylaw that would have "capped" the SUNY's in someway to keep them in line and "mute" the competitive advantage.

Bogus-- you keep saying "in-line" with this and that; at some point, something is going to have to give. Either scholarships will have to be addressed (likely making the league more attractive to the W&M's, Nova's, etc.) or you will have give up the "we need to stay with 100% like-minded schools" mantra and bend a little.

The game you want to play is zero-sum...and it doesn't benefit the longevity of the PL.

[Dane96]

Its not elistst-- it is simply ideology and competitive balance.

We have difficult academic standards and dont offer traditional scholarships. We need schools who are similar to continue with a competitive league.

Albany and Stony Brook are fine schools, but that are major universities in the NY state system. They have little in common with liberal arts schools with less than 3k students.

Not disagreeing wholeheartedly...but read my response to Bogus.

Something has GOT TO GIVE for the PL to survive as a competitive and strong league. Simplest thing is accept Marist and / or add scholarships.

I will say this, the PL leadership has taken the IVY "we dont change" tact to heart.

[Dane96]

Well, that has nothing to do with this discussion. xrolleyesx

OK, maybe elitist wasn't the best description, but I was trying for a quick, short post. In this outsider's view, the Patriot League has a philosophy and standards that appear to be unsustainable in FCS Football. With everybody you've said "no" to over the years, there aren't any schools left that fit the Patriot profile. Seriously, what are your options?


Status quo -- lose Fordham, plug along as a six member league and hope that nobody else leaves or drops football?
Sequester yourselves into a NESCAC relationship with the Ivy/Pioneer?
Add a couple of private institutions that play football and get them up to PL academic standards?
Add some level of scholarships and hope Fordham stays?
Increase funding and go FBS so that Navy and Army would play Patriot football?


JMHO, but without scholarships/equivalencies at the counter level:


You'll lose Fordham
Even if the CAA implodes, W&M and Richmond would look to the SoCon before the Patriot.
Colgate and Holy Cross will seriously evaluate their continued participation.


Well stated!xhurrayx

[Bogus Megapardus]

Well, that has nothing to do with this discussion. xrolleyesx

OK, maybe elitist wasn't the best description, but I was trying for a quick, short post. In this outsider's view, the Patriot League has a philosophy and standards that appear to be unsustainable in FCS Football. With everybody you've said "no" to over the years, there aren't any schools left that fit the Patriot profile. Seriously, what are your options?


Status quo -- lose Fordham, plug along as a six member league and hope that nobody else leaves or drops football?
Sequester yourselves into a NESCAC relationship with the Ivy/Pioneer?
Add a couple of private institutions that play football and get them up to PL academic standards?
Add some level of scholarships and hope Fordham stays?
Increase funding and go FBS so that Navy and Army would play Patriot football?


JMHO, but without scholarships/equivalencies at the counter level:


You'll lose Fordham
Even if the CAA implodes, W&M and Richmond would look to the SoCon before the Patriot.
Colgate and Holy Cross will seriously evaluate their continued participation.


All valid, oft-discussed points, leaving the PL without any viable expansion candidates at the present. The insular NESCAC model with the Ivies was sort of the idea when the league was formed (just as it was for the original MAAC football conference). In fact, there was a period of years where the IL and the PL were required by compact to schedule one another.

[Franks Tanks]

Not disagreeing wholeheartedly...but read my response to Bogus.

Something has GOT TO GIVE for the PL to survive as a competitive and strong league. Simplest thing is accept Marist and / or add scholarships.

I will say this, the PL leadership has taken the IVY "we dont change" tact to heart.

The PL overall is good. 8 happy members with Army/NAvy and good competitive balance in most sports.

PL football needs to make up its mind at the risk of alienating core members. It would be a shame if football tears this thing apart-- especially considering FB brought us all together in the 1st place.

Maybe we can force American to field a football team and solve all of our issues!

[carney2]

Saint Francis (PA), anyone?

Is it really that crazy an idea?

Yes it is. St. Francis is where football goes to die. Get real!!!!!

I'm with LFN on this. I don't know if UNH and Maine are potential answers, but if the Patriot League wants to survive it has to make major changes in the way it conducts business. Scholarships you say? That would be a good start, but only a start. I remember back when the Patriot League began and Harvard or Yale (I can't remember which) visited (then) Fisher Field. Some olde coot sitting in front of me was waxing poetic about what a thrill it was to have these venerable institutions on the schedule and visiting our humble little college. Not being the shy retiring type, I leaned forward and blurted out "It's not like they're letting us use the library." Point being, make nice-nice with the Ivies if you wish, but stop making real decisions based on what they do or what they will or will not do once you implement a policy.

[Dane96]

Bogus...then what is the solution? Times have changed for better or worse (depending on each school's particular instance). Only the Ivy can survive in their insular world of no schollys, no playoffs, etc.

No matter how great the PL schools are (and they most definitely are), they will never be IVY status in the eyes of most people.

I think the bottom line is...for the league to survive it needs to make changes to it long-adhered to views. Either drop "API" standards slightly to invite a couple of schools...or go scholly.

I cannot think of any other solutions.

[Dane96]

The PL overall is good. 8 happy members with Army/NAvy and good competitive balance in most sports.

PL football needs to make up its mind at the risk of alienating core members. It would be a shame if football tears this thing apart-- especially considering FB brought us all together in the 1st place.

Maybe we can force American to field a football team and solve all of our issues!

Yup...100% on point. But the longer this stays stagnent...the nastier the waters will get.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Bogus...then what is the solution? Times have changed for better or worse (depending on each school's particular instance). Only the Ivy can survive in their insular world of no schollys, no playoffs, etc.

No matter how great the PL schools are (and they most definitely are), they will never be IVY status in the eyes of most people.

I think the bottom line is...for the league to survive it needs to make changes to it long-adhered to views. Either drop "API" standards slightly to invite a couple of schools...or go scholly.

I cannot think of any other solutions.

The core of the PL consists of small, northeastern colleges with major engineering and science facilities and focus, which have very long football (and other sports) traditions, which have been playing at or near the highest level in all sports throughout their histories, and which are generally regarded to be in the nation's top 50 academically. By banding together and agreeing to control costs, scheduling and academic standards, the PL provides for a competitive balance, rendering their collective athletic endeavors worthwhile both for the students and for the broader institutional goals. In other words, the PL seeks to level the playing field. If it chooses to seek new members, it is my impression that the PL seeks other institutions that generally fit that mold.

The PL is not the Ivy League, but it was created by the Ivy League - please keep that in mind. The IL wanted to have a conference of like-minded institutions with which to compete, and it had the wherewithal to persuade the several PL schools to band together to become that conference. The PL would not exist but for the IL. The converse, of course, is not true.

There are several other FCS colleges that fit the PL mold - Wooford, Davidson, Furman come to mind - and still many more that are in Division III. Travel distances and cost remain priorities for small private schools which cannot rely for support on state budgets or student fees spread over tens of thousand of students.

The PL's dilemma is that most little private schools don't play 20+ sports at the Division 1 level so we're fish out of water in that regard. But that doesn't mean that rapid expansion - the strength-in-numbers approach - is a panacea. Staying a deliberate tack seems to have worked well for our institutions in other regards so it makes sense that the PL takes that approach now.

The point to this thread - that the PL is on life support and needs to be "saved" - seems to be of interest to a number of people outside the league, which is a little surprising because of the league's relatively low profile. The two most common themes - that we wean off the Ivies and become "more competitive" (3 teams in the top 25 is not enough, I suppose) through expansion with more competitive schools - seem to be the most oft-stated themes. I don't agree. I think the scholarship issue must be settled first.

If the PL allows football scholarships (it now allows scholarships in other sports), then the Ivy League might or might not make good on the suggestion that it will "look elsewhere" for opponents. But with scholarships, the expansion issue will take care of itself. College administrators who do not read this board, and who could not care less what I think, likely will contact the PL to discuss admission, "now that we have scholarships." They might be the ones discussed here, or they might be surprises. But it will happen.

If the PL goes without scholarships, it will no doubt be with some sort of wink-and-nod assurances from the IL that our OOC scheduling will remain predictable. One or two schools will leave the PL, and will have to be replaced by one or two of the oft-discussed candidates from the NEC or the Pioneer, unless an alliance with the smaller southern schools somehow makes budgetary sense.

It will go one way or the other, but the PL - at least its core institutions - is not breaking up and it does not need to be saved. So schedule a game or two at beautiful Fisher Field, or at Matthewson, or Goodman, or Fitton or Kerr. We'll be here.

[van]

If the PL allows football scholarships (it now allows scholarships in other sports), then the Ivy League might or might not make good on the suggestion that it will "look elsewhere" for opponents. But with scholarships, the expansion issue will take care of itself. College administrators who do not read this board, and who could not care less what I think, likely will contact the PL to discuss admission, "now that we have scholarships." They might be the ones discussed here, or they might be surprises. But it will happen.


If the IL chooses to look elsewhere, where might they look? IL teams need 3 OOC games per year. They can choose from "scholarship schools" (like the PL could become) or non-scholarship schools (like Div III, Pioneer and PL are now). They will have a hard time finding 3 OOC games if PL goes to scholarships and IL decides not to schedule PL due to that. There will be few non-scholarship Div 1 programs to choose from.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

seems to me this would be an advantage in a non-scholarship league, are you disputing this? even with merit aid now permissible in all sports other than football, most olympic sports have scholarship limits well below required roster size so this advantage would persist today.


Not disputing the reasoning at all-- of course it would be an advantage in a non-scholarship league...and a merit based league.

I was just pointing out that the problem could have been solved in some ways-- I am sure someone could have come up with a bylaw that would have "capped" the SUNY's in someway to keep them in line and "mute" the competitive advantage.

Let me bring this back. In the specific cases of UNH and Maine's football programs, more than 80% of the athletes are from out-of-state. So in the narrow case of football, where can it be seen as an "advantage" for these two?

Historically, Towson may have had a slight advantage in recruting in Maryland - but, like Maine and UNH, they aren't exactly recruiting hotbed.

The SUNY's would be a different case for sure, since NY is such a huge, populous state.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If the IL chooses to look elsewhere, where might they look? IL teams need 3 OOC games per year. They can choose from "scholarship schools" (like the PL could become) or non-scholarship schools (like Div III, Pioneer and PL are now). They will have a hard time finding 3 OOC games if PL goes to scholarships and IL decides not to schedule PL due to that. There will be few non-scholarship Div 1 programs to choose from.

Like I said somewhere, a long time ago - if they do stop scheduling the IL, Marist will be on every IL teams' speed-dial, with Wagner and maybe even Central Connecticut State right below it.

[Go...gate]

YES! Please...

Take it easy, for criminy's sake. It is only a post on a message board. xpeacex

[Lehigh Football Nation]

With scholarships, the expansion issue will take care of itself. College administrators who do not read this board, and who could not care less what I think, likely will contact the PL to discuss admission, "now that we have scholarships." They might be the ones discussed here, or they might be surprises. But it will happen.

If the PL goes without scholarships, it will no doubt be with some sort of wink-and-nod assurances from the IL that our OOC scheduling will remain predictable. One or two schools will leave the PL, and will have to be replaced by one or two of the oft-discussed candidates from the NEC or the Pioneer, unless an alliance with the smaller southern schools somehow makes budgetary sense.

You seem to think there is this laundry list of schools that are just waiting to join up once we make the decision, but there's really just one. The problem is that they're a sort-of member now - Fordham.

The other private schools have either failed some perceived academic litmus test (Marist, Bryant, Duquesne) or geographic test (Davidson, VMI) or are already in such a good situation they'd be foolish to move (Villanova, Richmond, William & Mary). You may be willing to try to have a PL best suited to take advantage of some sort of CAA implosion, but there's no guarantee that such an implosion will ever happen, either. And it's not like waiting, waiting, waiting has been such a great strategy for the last 10 years. And what's really changed with the candidates? Marist, for whatever reason, isn't academic enough. VMI is too far south. Villanova doesn't want to leave Delaware. Scholarships don't change that.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Like I said somewhere, a long time ago - if they do stop scheduling the IL, Marist will be on every IL teams' speed-dial, with Wagner and maybe even Central Connecticut State right below it.

Marist and Bryant will make out big with the Eight, for sure. But we're not supposed to mention the"M" word any more, according to the one poster what rendered Red Fox discussion off-limits in any context outside the PFL.


You seem to think there is this laundry list of schools that are just waiting to join up once we make the decision, but there's really just one. The problem is that they're a sort-of member now - Fordham.

The other private schools have either failed some perceived academic litmus test (Marist, Bryant, Duquesne) or geographic test (Davidson, VMI) or are already in such a good situation they'd be foolish to move (Villanova, Richmond, William & Mary). You may be willing to try to have a PL best suited to take advantage of some sort of CAA implosion, but there's no guarantee that such an implosion will ever happen, either. And it's not like waiting, waiting, waiting has been such a great strategy for the last 10 years. And what's really changed with the candidates? Marist, for whatever reason, isn't academic enough. VMI is too far south. Villanova doesn't want to leave Delaware. Scholarships don't change that.

Historically, a number of colleges have "applied" to the PL. They have been under a variety of circumstances - as circumstances change. There is no reason to believe that history will not repeat itself. With scholarships, the quantum of possible candidates expands significantly. The moratorium ends in 2011, allowing a provisional candidate to move up from Division III should the PL choose to proceed under its current needs-based aid model.

Yes, the PL has been notoriously selective, and it has made some notably poor decisions in the past (at least on the surface). But Marist/Richmond/Villanova and others are spilt milk. They've moved on. When one door closes, another opens as individual circumstances change. Alarmism really is not warranted.

[DFW HOYA]

So schedule a game or two at beautiful Fisher Field, or at Matthewson, or Goodman, or Fitton or Kerr. We'll be here.

You can also schedule one here as well. Good ground cover ...er, seats available.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5aDKqsf1RVE/SrLuV9hxo6I/AAAAAAAAAGA/eRygpx1_2x4/s320/msf7.jpg

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'll also bring up another big issue that doesn't get a lot of discussion: there are real tensions in the Ivy League, too. At some point, the IL is going to have to get together and figure out how to solve their competitiveness issues. Cornell (and others) simply can't compete with a school whose endowment allows them to scholarship the great majority of their students. There is a huge, huge gap between the "haves" and "have-nots" in the IL - and it skews the "non-scholarship" model. How much is a matter for debate - but trust me, it will be debated.

When this discussion takes place, the PL will be a part of that discussion. Dartmouth and Brown resemble Lafayette and Lehigh a lot more than they resemble Princeton and Harvard, and that debate could have spillover into the PL model, too. What happens if the IL decides that the financial gap is too much to overcome? What if they ditch the model for something else? What if they decide to relax their academic standards to attract more athletes? What if they allow, in certain cases, merit-based aid? What if they drop to D-III? It sounds crazy, but any of these scenarios absolutely could happen.

I bring this up because while people "like" the Patriot League and the PL/IL model, it could be a lot less healthy, IMO, than most people care to admit. I'm not saying I don't like it - I like the idea of an academic index, and being a high-academic conference with standards to uphold. But just because we have standards doesn't mean that 99% of institutions need not apply. That's the problem that has gotten us to this point.

[Bogus Megapardus]

You can also schedule one here as well. Good ground cover ...er, seats available.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5aDKqsf1RVE/SrLuV9hxo6I/AAAAAAAAAGA/eRygpx1_2x4/s320/msf7.jpg

I sensed you would discover that omission from my enumeration. It was on purpose until further notice, or at least until you ask the nice folks at RPI to fax you their blueprints. xrolleyesx

[Dane96]

BOGUS--

Guess you havent read the proposed new bylaws for DI membership (moving up).

It will put a major brake on any schools looking to move. Though I must admit, the schools that are PL material that are DIII likely have the coin to make such a move.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Historically, a number of colleges have "applied" to the PL. They have been under a variety of circumstances - as circumstances change.

And the answers have been:

"No."
"Non!"
"Nyet!"
"Nein."

And I thought the Republicans were the party of "no"... :D

[Bogus Megapardus]

BOGUS--

Guess you havent read the proposed new bylaws for DI membership (moving up).

It will put a major brake on any schools looking to move. Though I must admit, the schools that are PL material that are DIII likely have the coin to make such a move.

There are several proposals including minimum absolute financials, a requirement of prior conference sponsorship, minimum guaranteed attendance, and the one that will make the greatest impact: that Division I colleges must provide a minimum number of traditional merit-based scholarships - not just equivalencies. There are also proposals to split Division III into two parts.

[Dane96]

No Bogus...I am talking about the proposal released this week.

It likely will pass. The final touches go on today.

[Fordham]

it's really all a big swirling mess. Good points being made all around imo.

Some random thoughts since I can't stomach all of the cutting and pasting I'd be doing if I tried to respond to specific posts.

I'm not sure the Ivies give a crap if they're playing Lehigh, Lafayette or Monmouth. I really don't think "Colgate (or Fordham certainly) is coming to town this weekend" gets their fan base or anyone at the school fired up any more or less than any other school not currently in the BCS. If they're not playing the best, my educated guess is that it doesn't really matter to them overall.

It seems as though this all boils down to 3 options, two of which arguably have similar risk/reward scenarios from the one remaining one:

Option 1 - Do nothing ... otherwise known as the bogus option by most of us football fans in here. xsmiley_wix

Play the waiting game to see what happens by not moving on scholarships and seeing Fordham leave (for where? who knows?). Likely helps solidify scheduling relationship with the Ivies but leaves league on thin ice with six members while crossing fingers and hoping that a like-minded DIII school can move up several years from now.

Option 2 - Approve scholarships for football ... otherwise known as the least-bogus option .... xsmiley_wix :p

Approve scholarships w/AI. Keep Fordham but introduce intra-league issues since likely implementation will involve a 'do what you want' approach. League possibly better positioned for future expansion of good-fit institutions (e.g. - 'Nova, Richmond) but no gaurantees and any potential expansion targets likely to be football-only and/or years away from happening so they can see how CAA-unfolds and how intro of PL scholarships plays out.

Option 3 - Suck it up and invite best possible fit of the moment (e.g. - UNH, Maine, et. al.). Least risk here in terms of solidifying the viability of the league b/c it involves no waiting but concern over state school fit/identity overall of the conference.

I understand that there are paragraphs worth of further detail that could enhance each of these arguments as the best fit but those three pretty much sum up how I see it.

Given these 3, I'm clearly in the Option 2 camp but I understand the allure of each option.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No Bogus...I am talking about the proposal released this week.

It likely will pass. The final touches go on today.

Okay, you got me. Link?

[Bogus Megapardus]

No Bogus...I am talking about the proposal released this week.

It likely will pass. The final touches go on today.

The three-year prohibition revenue distribution? Not relevant to potential PL members.

[Dane96]

Nice try...it has about 10 different things.

Can you ever say...'got me...man I wish I knew that.'

Is it possible?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Okay, you got me. Link?


LINK (http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/AMA/legislative_actions_issues/Division%20I/2010%20NCAA%20Division%20I%20Official%20Notice.pdf )

[Bogus Megapardus]

Nice try...it has about 10 different things.

Can you ever say...'got me...man I wish I knew that.'

Is it possible?

There are about 100 proposals for DI at the current conference. Be more specific.

[Franks Tanks]

it's really all a big swirling mess. Good points being made all around imo.

Some random thoughts since I can't stomach all of the cutting and pasting I'd be doing if I tried to respond to specific posts.

I'm not sure the Ivies give a crap if they're playing Lehigh, Lafayette or Monmouth. I really don't think "Colgate (or Fordham certainly) is coming to town this weekend" gets their fan base or anyone at the school fired up any more or less than any other school not currently in the BCS. If they're not playing the best, my educated guess is that it doesn't really matter to them overall.

It seems as though this all boils down to 3 options, two of which arguably have similar risk/reward scenarios from the one remaining one:

Option 1 - Do nothing ... otherwise known as the bogus option by most of us football fans in here. xsmiley_wix

Play the waiting game to see what happens by not moving on scholarships and seeing Fordham leave (for where? who knows?). Likely helps solidify scheduling relationship with the Ivies but leaves league on thin ice with six members while crossing fingers and hoping that a like-minded DIII school can move up several years from now.

Option 2 - Approve scholarships for football ... otherwise known as the least-bogus option .... xsmiley_wix :p

Approve scholarships w/AI. Keep Fordham but introduce intra-league issues since likely implementation will involve a 'do what you want' approach. League possibly better positioned for future expansion of good-fit institutions (e.g. - 'Nova, Richmond) but no gaurantees and any potential expansion targets likely to be football-only and/or years away from happening so they can see how CAA-unfolds and how intro of PL scholarships plays out.

Option 3 - Suck it up and invite best possible fit of the moment (e.g. - UNH, Maine, et. al.). Least risk here in terms of solidifying the viability of the league b/c it involves no waiting but concern over state school fit/identity overall of the conference.

I understand that there are paragraphs worth of further detail that could enhance each of these arguments as the best fit but those three pretty much sum up how I see it.

Given these 3, I'm clearly in the Option 2 camp but I understand the allure of each option.


I think Ivy schools do care that they play Colgate over Monmouth for example. Fans may only care a small amount, but players and coached realize the difference and it does create more, albeit still limited interest.

[Dane96]

LFN-- here you go:

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaahome?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/ncaa/ncaa/ncaa+news/ncaa+news+online/2010/division+i/di+council+to+complete+membership+standards+discus sion+-+ncaa+news+-+1-11-01

[Dane96]

There are about 100 proposals for DI at the current conference. Be more specific.

I dont have to be more specific...I am informed. But for LFN, and others...I have provided it.

[Fordham]

I think Ivy schools do care that they play Colgate over Monmouth for example. Fans may only care a small amount, but players and coached realize the difference and it does create more, albeit still limited interest.
While true, I was referring to the fans, students and admin in making that comment. If getting the staff and players fired up to play was THAT important, there would still be football at Hofstra and Northeastern. :(

[Franks Tanks]

While true, I was referring to the fans, students and admin in making that comment. If getting the staff and players fired up to play was THAT important, there would still be football at Hofstra and Northeastern. :(

Old timer fans care. Students dont

[Bogus Megapardus]

I dont have to be more specific...I am informed. But for LFN, and others...I have provided it.

Here are the proposals:

LINK (http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/AMA/legislative_actions_issues/Division%20I/2010%20NCAA%20Division%20I%20Official%20Notice.pdf )

Which ones affect the PL?

[Model Citizen]

I hope this thread dies very soon.

I wish you had been sincere.

[Fordham]

Old timer fans care. Students dont Old timer fans of what schools? PL ones certainly but that wasn't who I was referring in my comments.

My line was with regard to the Ivies' fans, admin, etc. I would argue that old time Ivy fans are even less likely to appreciate/value a game with a PL team since they likely remember when the Ivies played the best and in front of packed stadiums. For them in particular, I believe a game v. Holy Cross carries as much significance as a game against Wilkes would.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN-- here you go:

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaahome?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/ncaa/ncaa/ncaa+news/ncaa+news+online/2010/division+i/di+council+to+complete+membership+standards+discus sion+-+ncaa+news+-+1-11-01

Boy, the NCAA clearly wants to make it really difficult for schools to move in the future if they enact these proposals. Am I reading right that if you're D-III you need to spend FIVE years in D-II BEFORE even THINKING about going to D-I? If so, we can wipe Johns Hopkins and RPI right off the list of PL expansion candidates.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I wish you had been sincere.

You're right. Thank you. I'm signing off this thread for good. It's a senseless exercise.

[Fordham]

Boy, the NCAA clearly wants to make it really difficult for schools to move in the future if they enact these proposals. Am I reading right that if you're D-III you need to spend FIVE years in D-II BEFORE even THINKING about going to D-I? If so, we can wipe Johns Hopkins and RPI right off the list of PL expansion candidates.

How about this one? Am I reading that last line correctly in that a JH's lax program would be grandfathered in and not subject to this rule? As lax gains in popularity, however, this is one that's very interesting in terms of how it plays out.


After the 2010-11 academic year, a discontinuation of the multidivisional practice that permits Divisions II or III institutions to designate one men’s and one women’s sport in Division I, except in sports that do not have a Division II championship. Institutions that currently “play up” could continue to do so, but would forfeit the opportunity permanently if the school failed to conduct the sport in Division I in any ensuing academic year.

[Dane96]

Here are the proposals:

LINK (http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/AMA/legislative_actions_issues/Division%20I/2010%20NCAA%20Division%20I%20Official%20Notice.pdf )

Which ones affect the PL?

Do I need to spell it out for you. I thought you had solid logical analysis skills coming from an Ivyesque education and being located in an Ivy League town.

I am sure you are intuitive and can figure it out all by your lonesome.

[Dane96]

Boy, the NCAA clearly wants to make it really difficult for schools to move in the future if they enact these proposals. Am I reading right that if you're D-III you need to spend FIVE years in D-II BEFORE even THINKING about going to D-I? If so, we can wipe Johns Hopkins and RPI right off the list of PL expansion candidates.

Ding Ding......thank you very much; someone earned his Lehigh education.

Bogus...take notice.

[Fordham]

Ding Ding......thank you very much; someone earned his Lehigh education.

Bogus...take notice.

if adopted, when would these take effect? i wonder if they would allow a lag period for schools to make the step up prior to implementation?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Do I need to spell it out for you. I thought you had solid logical analysis skills coming from an Ivyesque education and being located in an Ivy League town.

I am sure you are intuitive and can figure it out all by your lonesome.

Actually, Dane, I think you meant the Leadership Council agenda proposals, not the legislation or current by-laws. The Leadership Council proposals (including the controversial Division II requirement) are here (http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/DI_MC_BOD/DI_LC/2010/January/Leadership_Combined.pdf), reprinted in full.

[Fordham]

Actually, Dane, I think you meant the Leadership Council agenda proposals, not the legislation or current by-laws. The Leadership Council proposals (including the controversial Division II requirement) are here (http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/DI_MC_BOD/DI_LC/2010/January/Leadership_Combined.pdf), reprinted in full.

No Bogus...I am talking about the proposal released this week.

It likely will pass. The final touches go on today.
This was a few posts up. Perhaps it was missed given the quick posting on this thread today

[Dane96]

Ok...maybe you need more of an education; I said PROPOSED BYLAWS. The Leadership Council (one of the most impt committees of the NCAA) porposes potential bylaws and rules. Then they move forward with approved proposals and bring them forward to a vote.

Is this really complicated...?

[Dane96]

This was a few posts up. Perhaps it was missed given the quick posting on this thread today

Thank you Fordham....

[Bogus Megapardus]

Ok...maybe you need more of an education; I said PROPOSED BYLAWS. The Leadership Council (one of the most impt committees of the NCAA) porposes potential bylaws and rules. Then they move forward with approved proposals and bring them forward to a vote.

Is this really complicated...?

No, you said, "It will likely pass. The final touches go on today." That's not correct. These are committee agenda items. They haven't even been introduced, let alone cleared committee. Any vote would be in a legislative session held in the future.

[Franks Tanks]

Old timer fans of what schools? PL ones certainly but that wasn't who I was referring in my comments.

My line was with regard to the Ivies' fans, admin, etc. I would argue that old time Ivy fans are even less likely to appreciate/value a game with a PL team since they likely remember when the Ivies played the best and in front of packed stadiums. For them in particular, I believe a game v. Holy Cross carries as much significance as a game against Wilkes would.

Lafayette has been playing Penn, Princeton and Columbia for decades. Much longer than any oldtimer has been around.

Colgate has a similar relationship with Brown and Cornell.

The oldtimers know these games because they were the same teams played when they were in school.

Lafayette played at Penn nearly every year at a packed Franklin Field in the old days. Brown and Colgate was one of the biggest rivalries in the East years ago. Old timers still appreciate these games more than Monmouth.

[henfan]

Delaware was a "college division" school that played PL members (and Gettysburg) for eons. If I had suggested that Lehigh was a more natural rival to Delaware, the Blue Hens on this board would have been in an uproar.

And those prior affiliations are exactly why Delaware flirted with joining the Colonial League (the PL's precursor) circa 1985 for the '86 season. At that time, UD was not offering athletically-related aid. Ultimately, the BOT decided not to join the Colonial League and allow itself the flexibility of moving from the grant-in-aid route in the future.

Of course, UD did end up joining the Yankee Conference for FB in '86 and the NAC in for other sports, and began offering athletically-related aid in '88.

There are many who still fondly remember UD's old battles with Lehigh and consider them a rival.

[Ken_Z]

i am imagining a thread involving a "debate" between Bogus and MplsBison. we could get the longest thread in history with neither moving an inch or even considering the others point of view. to be fair, i'll concede i never really consider MplsBison's point of view either. i really hope Bogus doesn't end up in that category; i think he has raised some intersting points on other occasions and added to the debate on other occasions.

[Ken_Z]

And those prior affiliations are exactly why Delaware flirted with joining the Colonial League (the PL's precursor) circa 1985 for the '86 season. At that time, UD was not offering athletically-related aid. Ultimately, the BOT decided not to join the Colonial League and allow itself the flexibility of moving from the grant-in-aid route in the future.


did Delaware have an offer? i thought i read posts from UD posters in the past saying the PL refused to offer to them (the public vs. private school thing again).

[GannonFan]

See any CAA thread on this board.



Delaware was a "college division" school that played PL members (and Gettysburg) for eons. If I had suggested that Lehigh was a more natural rival to Delaware, the Blue Hens on this board would have been in an uproar.


And those prior affiliations are exactly why Delaware flirted with joining the Colonial League (the PL's precursor) circa 1985 for the '86 season. At that time, UD was not offering athletically-related aid. Ultimately, the BOT decided not to join the Colonial League and allow itself the flexibility of moving from the grant-in-aid route in the future.

Of course, UD did end up joining the Yankee Conference for FB in '86 and the NAC in for other sports, and began offering athletically-related aid in '88.

There are many who still fondly remember UD's old battles with Lehigh and consider them a rival.

I agree - there was a time when Lehigh was very much a true rival for UD. However, Lehigh decided to go a different direction and UD had to move on. Such is life. xcoffeex

[GannonFan]

You seem to think there is this laundry list of schools that are just waiting to join up once we make the decision, but there's really just one. The problem is that they're a sort-of member now - Fordham.

The other private schools have either failed some perceived academic litmus test (Marist, Bryant, Duquesne) or geographic test (Davidson, VMI) or are already in such a good situation they'd be foolish to move (Villanova, Richmond, William & Mary). You may be willing to try to have a PL best suited to take advantage of some sort of CAA implosion, but there's no guarantee that such an implosion will ever happen, either. And it's not like waiting, waiting, waiting has been such a great strategy for the last 10 years. And what's really changed with the candidates? Marist, for whatever reason, isn't academic enough. VMI is too far south. Villanova doesn't want to leave Delaware. Scholarships don't change that.


Hey, LFN actually made a statement that a CAA implosion is not a sure thing - how could that slip by everyone??!?!? xlolx

[Bogus Megapardus]

i really hope Bogus doesn't end up in that category

For everyone's sanity, particularly my own, I hope you're right. :o

[Go...gate]

Lafayette has been playing Penn, Princeton and Columbia for decades. Much longer than any oldtimer has been around.

Colgate has a similar relationship with Princeton, Yale, Brown and Cornell.

The oldtimers know these games because they were the same teams played when they were in school.

Lafayette played at Penn nearly every year at a packed Franklin Field in the old days. Brown and Colgate was one of the biggest rivalries in the East years ago. Old timers still appreciate these games more than Monmouth.

Made a slight revision.

[Fordham]

Lafayette has been playing Penn, Princeton and Columbia for decades. Much longer than any oldtimer has been around.

Colgate has a similar relationship with Brown and Cornell.

The oldtimers know these games because they were the same teams played when they were in school.

Lafayette played at Penn nearly every year at a packed Franklin Field in the old days. Brown and Colgate was one of the biggest rivalries in the East years ago. Old timers still appreciate these games more than Monmouth.

We can agree to disagree. I wasn't challenging that those games took place - Lord knows Fordham played enough of them as well as against higher competition as well up until the '50's. Just more so saying that I really don't think there is much of anything regarding a big affinity or rivalry or whatever for PL schools amongst the Ivy alums. They get excited for playing one another and get wistful only when it comes to their former bowl days ... but then again, who doesn't?

As far as Bogus goes - I get as frustrated as any with the elitist pot-shots, etc. but I think his post a page or two back captures the status quo option very well. I think it's pretty clear that no option is pretty clear, as far as being a sure thing goes ... but that each has its merits as well as significant risk.

[Bogus Megapardus]

did Delaware have an offer? i thought i read posts from UD posters in the past saying the PL refused to offer to them (the public vs. private school thing again).

I think Delaware has something like 75 percent of its student body paying tuition from out of state. It might as well be a private school, and it says a lot about the quality and perception of Delaware as a whole. UNH has a very high out-of-state tuition population as well, and it has a particularly good academic reputation.

[Dane96]

No, you said, "It will likely pass. The final touches go on today." That's not correct. These are committee agenda items. They haven't even been introduced, let alone cleared committee. Any vote would be in a legislative session held in the future.

No it is correct. The Council does vote and put touches on proposals PRIOR to bringing it to committee or legislate session.

Really want to keep going on this?!?!

[Dane96]

I think Delaware has something like 75 percent of its student body paying tuition from out of state. It might as well be a private school, and it says a lot about the quality and perception of Delaware as a whole. UNH has a very high out-of-state tuition population as well, and it has a particularly good academic reputation.

I could see how 61% of out-of-state students at the undergraduate level and 71% at the graduate level could equate to 75%.

Your calculations aside, your point is well taken the the UD education (as well as UNH) are considered to be very good.

[Sader87]

Holy Cross-Harvard and Holy Cross-Dartmouth have both had long and storied football rivalries.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Option 1 - Do nothing ... otherwise known as the bogus option by most of us football fans in here. xsmiley_wix

Play the waiting game to see what happens by not moving on scholarships and seeing Fordham leave (for where? who knows?). Likely helps solidify scheduling relationship with the Ivies but leaves league on thin ice with six members while crossing fingers and hoping that a like-minded DIII school can move up several years from now.


Boy, the NCAA clearly wants to make it really difficult for schools to move in the future if they enact these proposals. Am I reading right that if you're D-III you need to spend FIVE years in D-II BEFORE even THINKING about going to D-I? If so, we can wipe Johns Hopkins and RPI right off the list of PL expansion candidates.

Put these posts together for emphasis. If these proposals do actually come to pass, then that means that if JHU or RPI want to go Division I and the PL accepted them, we could expect a stable eight team football league.... in 2021. If they move it. And that is - as well - if JHU and RPI wish to give up their grandfathered status as D-I in one sport and D-III in everything else. Fat chance, IMO.

If RPI and JHU are off the table, does that make scholarships a done deal? I mean, option one would really no longer be an option...

[Dane96]

Very very solid points LFN. This most certainly would affect (the proposed legislation that is) the Great West and PL the most.

The bottom line is that the NCAA is looking to curb the move to DI. The people voting on this ARE DI leaders. Thus, it follows that this leadership council has polled/talked with other leaders in DI who will vote on this proposals and tailored them to what they believe will be rules/bylaws that should pass easily.

These rules will cause anyone in DII or DIII (and other divisions like NAIA) to pretty much give up the dream of DI. There are very few schools that have the ability and desire to overcome these roadblocks.

[Engineer91]

Boy, the NCAA clearly wants to make it really difficult for schools to move in the future if they enact these proposals. Am I reading right that if you're D-III you need to spend FIVE years in D-II BEFORE even THINKING about going to D-I? If so, we can wipe Johns Hopkins and RPI right off the list of PL expansion candidates.

Wouldn't they also have to drop the one sport DI status in order to move to DII to move to DI? That pretty much guarantees they will never even consider a change (and is also asinine).

[Collegefootballfan]

Very interesting post concerning the future of northeast football.
I think the main point of the post is that things have to change in the northeast
if programs are going to grow and survive. With Northeastern and Hofstra
dropping there programs it really is time to plan for the future.
Without rehashing all that has been already stated. One thing has never been
mentioned. To make all these programs work and survive the bottom line is
money . Where is it coming from , how to get more and is the return worth
the investment. For Northeasten and Hofstra the answer was no.
The return was not worth the investment. Now the remaining schools are
scrambling on how to make it work . Tradititonally the money came from
students, fund raising , alumni support, ticket sales. etc.
These sources are not keeping up with the costs. New sources of funding
must be created to cover the costs.
A new source of income is to rebrand the whole region and promote our
overall strenght and not our individual weakness. What I am suggesting
is to take a page out of the early days of the nfl and create a brand new
revenue stream of income by creating a televsion network on cable
that would focus on all the leagues in the norhteast. Football , basketball
etc. The fan base is already created , the advertising revenue would
be substantial. Every other Div 1 conference has a network why not
the northeast conferences. The money would be shared equally among
leagues to support the programs. Schools that had no interest in
programs ie NU and Hofstra would be lured back.
The impact would be dramatic. All Access info on Patriot League News,
NEC , America East, CAA . All it would take is for a dedicated few with
experience to put together a package.
If cable can support what's on there now it could support a cable network
dedicated to the northeast div 1 aa fan.
Just imagine instead of scrambling to find a game u just turn to the network
and the game is there. Want info on HC or Gtwn, Maine turn to the network.
Before anyone tellls me why this cannot be done , take a few momments
and tell me why it could happen.

[Franks Tanks]

Very interesting post concerning the future of northeast football.
I think the main point of the post is that things have to change in the northeast
if programs are going to grow and survive. With Northeastern and Hofstra
dropping there programs it really is time to plan for the future.
Without rehashing all that has been already stated. One thing has never been
mentioned. To make all these programs work and survive the bottom line is
money . Where is it coming from , how to get more and is the return worth
the investment. For Northeasten and Hofstra the answer was no.
The return was not worth the investment. Now the remaining schools are
scrambling on how to make it work . Tradititonally the money came from
students, fund raising , alumni support, ticket sales. etc.
These sources are not keeping up with the costs. New sources of funding
must be created to cover the costs.
A new source of income is to rebrand the whole region and promote our
overall strenght and not our individual weakness. What I am suggesting
is to take a page out of the early days of the nfl and create a brand new
revenue stream of income by creating a televsion network on cable
that would focus on all the leagues in the norhteast. Football , basketball
etc. The fan base is already created , the advertising revenue would
be substantial. Every other Div 1 conference has a network why not
the northeast conferences. The money would be shared equally among
leagues to support the programs. Schools that had no interest in
programs ie NU and Hofstra would be lured back.
The impact would be dramatic. All Access info on Patriot League News,
NEC , America East, CAA . All it would take is for a dedicated few with
experience to put together a package.
If cable can support what's on there now it could support a cable network
dedicated to the northeast div 1 aa fan.
Just imagine instead of scrambling to find a game u just turn to the network
and the game is there. Want info on HC or Gtwn, Maine turn to the network.
Before anyone tellls me why this cannot be done , take a few momments
and tell me why it could happen.

Well some Patriot league schools have "TV deals" (Lafayette, Lehigh)


problem is the ratings are small and TV deals for us wont generate a lot of revenue. Exposure yes, money no

[Collegefootballfan]

That's the whole point individually the rating might be low but
taken together as a whole the rating would be enough to make it work.
Another way to look at it imagine a espn type network that focused
on all the D 1 AA leagues in the northeast as a group .
Games, highlights, news updates, etc,
Any communication dept at any the university could put this together.
The advertising would if marketed right would be enought to make it work.
An there is enough to report on to make the content viable.

[Franks Tanks]

Maybe I dont understand.

If Lafayette vs. Bucknell is on TV will the rating of this game be much different on the Lafayette sports network vs. the NE football network?

It is still Lafayette vs. Bucknell, and with gather a similar rating at a given time slot. If ratings are low for the specific game in questions, advertising revenue for that time slot will still be low.

[CFBfan]

Maybe I dont understand.

If Lafayette vs. Bucknell is on TV will the rating of this game be much different on the Lafayette sports network vs. the NE football network?

It is still Lafayette vs. Bucknell, and with gather a similar rating at a given time slot. If ratings are low for the specific game in questions, advertising revenue for that time slot will still be low.

while i do think it might be better, i'm not sure how much better. a am able to get U Penn, Columbia and Princeton games on a local cable channel and I do enjoy watching them. I am a PL fan at heart and would surely enjoy watching the PL teams/games but i can not get them. that said i am not sure how wide spread the appeal of this would be....not very imo

[Dane96]

Hey Bogus...the proposal just got even beefier. Dont expect the JHU's, RPI's, Gettysburg's, F&M's etc...to move up any time soon.

Go check out the NCAA portal.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If there were such a thing as an "Eastern Alliance Football channel", I'd subscribe to it in a heartbeat.

Having said that, there are a lot of factors which would make this a very difficult proposition. For starters, you'd need to come up with some form of revenue sharing between the schools. Then, who produces it? A gang of roving TV reporters, or the schools themselves? Where does the money come from: a George Soros-like entrepreneur? Does he hope to make money at this?

Let's say you had all that in place - no mean feat. Then you'd have to come up with some sort of alliance between all the Eastern conferences - again, probably involving revenue. Then you'd need to clear it with the NCAA and probably have to cut a deal with ESPN so there is no overlap.

Last - and certainly not least - this deal would have to be crafted so that basketball is unaffected. So in the case of the Patriot League CBS would have to be involved, as would the conferences that have basketball games on the ESPN family of networks - not to mention the Comcast satellite stations that broadcast CAA games.

You'd also have to have a straw in the wind about where TV is all going. Are specialized networks something that will thrive in the next 5-10 years, or is some sort of internet-to-TV on-demand sort of packages more likely? More TV is going online these days, and it's early times. This playing field is far from set.

*****

I don't mean to shoot down your proposal. I love the idea, and have for years. But there are just so many roadblocks to something like that happening.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Eliminate the designations of “core” and “continuity” for Division I institutions and create a more meaningful definition of a multisport conference, including a minimum number of active members, minimum sport sponsorship, officiating and compliance program rules.

Hooooooo boy. My first reaction is the Great West is in trouble. My second is that there could be some real impacts around the country with this.

This may not affect the PL that much. The PL has a pretty large number of sports that it sponsors, including men's and women's lax, etc. For the PL, where it gets interesting is if there are any modifications to a minimum number of "active members" needed for NCAA sponsorship - will it be increased to six or seven?

Clearly the NCAA is very, very upset that the Great West came to be.

[DFW HOYA]

Well some Patriot league schools have "TV deals" (Lafayette, Lehigh) problem is the ratings are small and TV deals for us wont generate a lot of revenue. Exposure yes, money no

The Patriot League is one of the few I-AA leagues without a conference-wide TV package available to sell to cable and satellite channels--in large part, because Leh/Laf do not want to give up control of their regional network and/or revenue share with a Bucknell or Georgetown if TV rights are split among league schools.

[henfan]

did Delaware have an offer? i thought i read posts from UD posters in the past saying the PL refused to offer to them (the public vs. private school thing again).

At the time that UD and the other schools were in discussions, there was no offer because there was no league. UD was part of talks between the schools forming the Colonial League. As I recall it was just after I got out of school, so circa '84/'85.

FTR, UD is by its own definition a 'semi-private' institution.

[Franks Tanks]

The Patriot League is one of the few I-AA leagues without a conference-wide TV package available to sell to cable and satellite channels--in large part, because Leh/Laf do not want to give up control of their regional network and/or revenue share with a Bucknell or Georgetown if TV rights are split among league schools.

Lafayette/Lehigh TV revenue is negligible (if any)

The exposure is more important as we are both on TV every week home or away and that helps a lot. If a league wide package could guarantee that we would still be able to maintain this relationship then we would probably go for it.

[DFW HOYA]

The exposure is more important as we are both on TV every week home or away and that helps a lot. If a league wide package could guarantee that we would still be able to maintain this relationship then we would probably go for it.

Well, that's exactly why these schools don't want a league package, because Leh/Laf wouldn't be on every single week on a PL-wide package and some of the SE2 viewers might actually have to watch Fordham at Georgetown or Bucknell at Holy Cross from time to time. How do you sell a package in New York and Washington if the same two teams are always on?

Of course, one school broadcasts save on pre-game prep. The Lafayette announcers have been recycling their comments on Georgetown for years:

"They're new and still adjusting to the Patriot League..."
"This is a young team..."
"They've got some up and coming players..."

[carney2]

Well, that's exactly why these schools don't want a league package, because Leh/Laf wouldn't be on every single week on a PL-wide package

That would mean that I'd actually have to go to the games.

[Franks Tanks]

Well, that's exactly why these schools don't want a league package, because Leh/Laf wouldn't be on every single week on a PL-wide package and some of the SE2 viewers might actually have to watch Fordham at Georgetown or Bucknell at Holy Cross from time to time. How do you sell a package in New York and Washington if the same two teams are always on?

Of course, one school broadcasts save on pre-game prep. The Lafayette announcers have been recycling their comments on Georgetown for years:

"They're new and still adjusting to the Patriot League..."
"This is a young team..."
"They've got some up and coming players..."

Why would we give up being on TV every week in Eastern PA, Western NJ, Philly, and pockets of DC/Maryland?

If Lafayette can get a package perhaps other schools could as well.

[LBPop]

Why would we give up being on TV every week in Eastern PA, Western NJ, Philly, and pockets of DC/Maryland?

If Lafayette can get a package perhaps other schools could as well.

You have conjured up an image that is making me laugh silently. I am trying to imagine the Hoya AD (currently an interim, but very competent man) trying to set up a TV network. Here's the conversation:

GT: Hello Mr. TV guy, how would you like to televise Georgetown football?
TV Guy: I didn't know Georgetown played football
GT: We get that a lot, but we really do. Would you like to see a game?
TV Guy: Well I know that you don't have a stadium, so you must play at the Verizon Center--that's Georgetown's home field, right? It must be like Arena football.
GT: No, it's real football
TV Guy: I didn't know Georgetown played football

I think the Hoyas are a season or two away from a TV package. xrolleyesx

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I usually attend games but love to set up the DVR for games. I'd be happy with a robust replay schedule during the week! Sometimes those Lafayette and Lehigh games end up on Fox College Sports Atlantic during the week. It would be great if we could see a couple of Patriot, a couple of NEC, a couple of Ivy and a couple of CAA games during the week!! But getting any network to figure out how to make money doing this is the challenge.

New England Sports Network (NESN) often shows ACC games because of UCH and their misguided opinion that New England cares about UCH. But the reality is they can get more advertising bucks for ACC Football and Basketball than FCS and mid major New England basketball.

Adding to the problem is that a competing network, Comcast, has a different set of games under contract. Ivy Football games may be on NESN while CAA games are on Comcast. To date we've been better off with two networks because they can both balance regional scheduling with national scheduling to survive financially. But I'd love to see a true Northeast College Sports Network and would pay an additional fee to obtain it from my TV carrier.

[Franks Tanks]

You have conjured up an image that is making me laugh silently. I am trying to imagine the Hoya AD (currently an interim, but very competent man) trying to set up a TV network. Here's the conversation:

GT: Hello Mr. TV guy, how would you like to televise Georgetown football?
TV Guy: I didn't know Georgetown played football
GT: We get that a lot, but we really do. Would you like to see a game?
TV Guy: Well I know that you don't have a stadium, so you must play at the Verizon Center--that's Georgetown's home field, right? It must be like Arena football.
GT: No, it's real football
TV Guy: I didn't know Georgetown played football

I think the Hoyas are a season or two away from a TV package. xrolleyesx

Lehigh and Lafayette are greatly helped by the area we reside in. It is an area with a good population base ( I believe the Lehigh Valley metro area now has 900,000 people) . NY and Philly are close by so the Lehigh Valley has a lot of pro sports fans, but the local scene isnt totally dominated by the pros like NY, Boston, DC etc.

It is also an area that really loves all levels of football-- High School, College etc. We have a good amount of people, but not so many that we have pro sports teams or "major" coleges to hog all the attention. Fordham and Georgetown have no chance in their markets. Bucknell is right under Penn State's nose and along with Colgate are in very small towns. Holy Cross has a chance in Worchester, but Mass is so pro sports focused it is more diffcult for them. I understand it sucks for the rest of the league, but everyone else is plagued by markets too big or too small it appears.

[Neighbor2]

Franks Tanks . . . therein lies the problem. The Lehigh Valley is actually a rather large metropolitan area. Large enough to support a higher level of college football play. A higher level of play that can only come from competing on the same field as others, that being equal scholarship offers to the best athletes throughout the country.

In my mind, Lehigh is blowing an opportunity big time. Lehigh CAN attract 18-20K spectators per game, IF it competes at the highest level, within its classification, and brings in the Delawares, the Villanovas, the Richmonds and wins, or loses without excuses.

Right now, Lehigh seems to hang its hat on some elitist opinion that it always succeeds, despite its self-imposed limitations, simply because it's Lehigh. Foolish.

[Franks Tanks]

Franks Tanks . . . therein lies the problem. The Lehigh Valley is actually a rather large metropolitan area. Large enough to support a higher level of college football play. A higher level of play that can only come from competing on the same field as others, that being equal scholarship offers to the best athletes throughout the country.

In my mind, Lehigh is blowing an opportunity big time. Lehigh CAN attract 18-20K spectators per game, IF it competes at the highest level, within its classification, and brings in the Delawares, the Villanovas, the Richmonds and wins, or loses without excuses.

Right now, Lehigh seems to hang its hat on some elitist opinion that it always succeeds, despite its self-imposed limitations, simply because it's Lehigh. Foolish.

The only FCS schools that draw those numbers are large state schools-- Montana, Delaware, App State. Just not sure the Lehigh has a large enough base for that.

Lehigh hosted Nova, and Lafayette hosted Richmond to modest crowds. We already get more fans than those schools, so not sure it would help attendance by a large margin.

[ngineer]

Yes, I really question whether Lehigh could support such a project. The one thing about the Lehigh Valley is the HUGE following for high schools sports against which many athletic events run up against, not just in football. Goodman can already hold about 20,000 with the grass seating in the southern endzone, which is more than big enough. Even when we played Villanova when we were still good back in 2005 we didn't draw 12,000 and the same the last time Delaware visited back in 1997. Most schools do not have fan bases that 'travel well'. They get a couple hundred alumni who live in the area plus players' parents.
Even in Lehigh's 'high water mark' years of 1998-2001 we averaged 'only' 11,000.

[Neighbor2]

Good points guys, but I'm looking at a growth process that would take 5 years or so. The kind of crowds I envision will come after Lehigh establishes regular influence on Top Ten play, does well in playoffs, gets a money game here and there (and is competitive).

Bigger crowds are also driven by the local media. The Morning Call/WFMZ would fall all over Lehigh if it is ranked in the FCS top five, plays a Rutgers, a Temple, etc. I think you'll both agree, during the past five years, most new Lehigh Valley residents have come from bigger metropolitan areas in Jersey and New York. They don't come with any interest in the Muhlenbergs and Moravians. They might bring an interest in a regular NATIONAL player that receives good media attention.

Yes, the Lehigh Valley appreciates good high school football. Wouldn't it have been nice to make equal offers to the Liberty and Easton stars who are now hooked-up with Stanford, Pittsburgh, Boston College and Northwestern?

[ngineer]

Good points guys, but I'm looking at a growth process that would take 5 years or so. The kind of crowds I envision will come after Lehigh establishes regular influence on Top Ten play, does well in playoffs, gets a money game here and there (and is competitive).

Bigger crowds are also driven by the local media. The Morning Call/WFMZ would fall all over Lehigh if it is ranked in the FCS top five, plays a Rutgers, a Temple, etc. I think you'll both agree, during the past five years, most new Lehigh Valley residents have come from bigger metropolitan areas in Jersey and New York. They don't come with any interest in the Muhlenbergs and Moravians. They might bring an interest in a regular NATIONAL player that receives good media attention.

Yes, the Lehigh Valley appreciates good high school football. Wouldn't it have been nice to make equal offers to the Liberty and Easton stars who are now hooked-up with Stanford, Pittsburgh, Boston College and Northwestern?

Certainly an optimistic view. Yes, if we were able to go to merit scholarships and schedule on a regular basis the 'heavies' of FCS and the periodic 'money game' with an FBS school, interest should increase. Other than the 'playing at home' pitch, I don't know whether any of the kids who went to Stanford, Northwestern, etc,. would opt to remain in the Valley. Part of the problem in recruiting in 'your backyard' is a lot of kids see college as the time to 'break away' abit from the nest and check out other regions. And a couple you may refer to may not have been admitable anyway. The other horn of the recruiting dilemma that LU and LC face. We see it in wrestling all the time..."How come Lehigh didn't go after so and so" who ends up nationally ranked at some nationl wrestling power. Admissions Office is the simple answer. So even if we ever get to scholarships, being able to use them efficiently would be a big hurdle in achieving the goal you outline.

[carney2]

Mr. Neighbor makes some good points, but is overstating the drawing power of football at Goodman. Personally, I think that the Squawks have the best fan base in the Patriot League, but at their best I see them averaging 10,000-12,000. Lafayette is probably next in the League and, again, at their best, probably would average 8,000-10,000. Holy Cross has done well recently with Randolph. It will be interesting to see how they do without him. Colgate deserves better than the 5,000 or so that they average, but just look at a map. Fordham is taking a giant leap into its football future with inferior facilities, not much of a fan base, and a location where they are simply lost in the immensity of it all. As for the other two,...

Oh yeah, and scholarships aren't going to change this very much.

[DFW HOYA]

Fordham is taking a giant leap into its football future with inferior facilities, not much of a fan base, and a location where they are simply lost in the immensity of it all. As for the other two...

Well, here's a affirmation for the Georgetown fan base...IF they're engaged.

Georgetown averages 12,000 a game in basketball, with close to 8,000 season ticket holders (90% of whom live in the area) paying per seat ticket prices of $10-$40. No PL fan base has this kind of potential audience and NO PL team ignores it as much as Georgetown does for football.

Some of it is sheer bureaucracy (e.g., has someone ever thought to send football season ticket mailings to basketball season ticket holders) but much of it is logistical. What does a football season ticket holder get at Georgetown vs. Lehigh?

Preferred seating? No, because there's no such thing as "seating" at the MSF.
Close-in parking? No, because there's no parking at the MSF.
Priority tickets for playoff games? Umm, no...
Access to a member-only lounge? Does not exist.
Guaranteed seats for the big rivalry game? None of Georgetown's rivals actually play in the PL.
Access to events with the head coach? No.

Fact: Georgetown can't offer a season ticket holder much of anything. (FWIW, there is a season ticket package but I have no idea if the number of tickets sold is anything to write home about.)

Address these issues...and give people a reason to see a winning team, and Georgetown could fill seats. Lots of them. The fact that three games this season were sold out to watch a team that is 1-23 in Kevin Kelly's four seasons in the PL (thank you, Bucknell) shows there is still some interest even if the on-field results aren't improving.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Just wondering, DFW - what (if anything) do you think will change about Georgetown football in the next 3-5 seasons? Coaching? Scholarships? Facilities? Recruiting? Fundraising? Will Georgetown choose to leave to PL (either upgrade or downgrade)? Never mind what should happen - what do you think is likely to happen?

n.b. - maybe a reminder of/introduction to Hoya football could be printed on the back of every Verizon Center pass along with information at the gate.

[Sader87]

Holy Cross would draw 12.000-15,000 at Fitton...if it wasn't in the Patriot League.

[Franks Tanks]

Holy Cross would draw 12.000-15,000 at Fitton...if it wasn't in the Patriot League.

Why?

WHen you play teams like UMASS at Fitton you didnt get crowds like that recently.

[Sader87]

Why?

WHen you play teams like UMASS at Fitton you didnt get crowds like that recently.
http://www.goholycross.com/sports/m-footbl/stats/2008-2009/hc01.htm

There was nearly 13,000 at Fitton for the 2008 UMass game.

[colorless raider]

Holy Cross would draw 12.000-15,000 at Fitton...if it wasn't in the Patriot League.

Yeah, if they were in the Big East. OOpps, you missed that chance.xeyebrowx

[Sader87]

That was for basketball CR...but agreed, the school has never recovered (athletically) from missing the boat there.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Holy Cross would draw 12.000-15,000 at Fitton...if it wasn't in the Patriot League.

We're dragging you down, then. Sorry. Without dwelling on the past, then, what should HC do right now to make it better and to distance itself from the PL?

[Sader87]

It's not the fault of the PL or the core (LU, LC and Bucknell) of the PL but outside of Colgate, most older HC alums and the Central and Eastern Mass casual fans could care less (or know very little) about those schools thus there's no incentive to go to Fitton as there is/was for a UMass, Harvard, UNH etc. game.

It won't happen but HC's football fortunes (attendence/interest-wise) are much better suited toward a realigned CAA with UMass, URI, UNH and Maine.

[Bogus Megapardus]

It won't happen but HC's football fortunes (attendence/interest-wise) are much better suited toward a realigned CAA with UMass, URI, UNH and Maine.

Of course. UMass/UNH/Maine/Dartmouth should always be on the HC slate. These are the Crusader's foes. I'm not sure HC will pack Fitton until BC and UConn come to town, though.

Let's hope it happens.

[Sader87]

BC and UConn are probably never coming back to Fitton sadly...what would be nice is to play both of these schools every so often with scholarships.

[Bogus Megapardus]

BC and UConn are probably never coming back to Fitton sadly...what would be nice is to play both of these schools every so often with scholarships.

I wouldn't be so sure. I think it would be in the interest of both UConn and BC to play a competitive, scholarship-based HC in Worcester. Seriously.

[UAalum72]

Not only can I not see how it's in the interest of a BCS team to go on the road to an FCS team with half the stadium capacity, it's probably against Big East and ACC policy.

Other than possibly Navy at Delaware, how many FBS teams have played at FCS schools in the last ten years?

[Jackman]

http://www.goholycross.com/sports/m-footbl/stats/2008-2009/hc01.htm

There was nearly 13,000 at Fitton for the 2008 UMass game.

UMass will play at Fitton again in 2011, for what it's worth. There's no current commitment to play home-and-homes after that, but it's one of the few non-conference series that make sense for us. We don't have a shorter road trip than Worcester. Plus 2013 is a 12 game season, so that's a good year to do a non-conference FCS road game, assuming we get the home game in 2012.

But no BCS team will play an away game at Holy Cross's stadium even with scholarships, unless they get an enormous payout. It isn't just that they're giving away an extra non-conference home game, it also prevents them from filling their home schedule with a cheap FCS opponent because they can only count one FCS win per year toward bowl eligibility. Only a MAC team would even consider it.

[Franks Tanks]

http://www.goholycross.com/sports/m-footbl/stats/2008-2009/hc01.htm

There was nearly 13,000 at Fitton for the 2008 UMass game.

Sorry I was incorrect xlolx

UMass packs em in, but you can play UMASS PL or no PL.

UNH, Maine, and RI dont get that kind of attendance at home-- would they bring a significant fan following to Fitton?

[Sader87]

The thing is, HC very much has a "New England sensibility" which the Patriot League lacks in spades. HC alums (and Greater Worcester locals) would rather play/see games against a URI than say a Bucknell....the PL has been a very poor fit (given its heavy Pennsylvania/NY dominance) for HC and its Massachusetts followers/supporters.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The thing is, HC very much has a "New England sensibility" which the Patriot League lacks in spades. HC alums (and Greater Worcester locals) would rather play/see games against a URI than say a Bucknell....the PL has been a very poor fit (given its heavy Pennsylvania/NY dominance) for HC and its Massachusetts followers/supporters.

This would seem to underscore the principal reason why UConn or BC would travel to a competitive scholarship HC. Truly - BC or UConn fans "care" about a game against HC, all other factors aside. There's not really specific. business or economically-related explanation for it. Neither school would travel to play most FCS schools, but HC is just "different."

For the same reasons, you could probably get Rutgers to play at a competitive, scholarship-based Lehigh or Lafayette. Both schools are very well known by Rutgers students and alumni, and Rutgers played both forever and ever until the major NCAA realignment in the 70s. Again, Rutgers probably would not travel to play, for example, a SoCon or a OVC team, but Laf/LU are just "different" from a Rutgers standpoint. It's hard to explain, but is just "is." Penn and Princeton would find the same space vis-a-vis Rutgers.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Mr. Neighbor makes some good points, but is overstating the drawing power of football at Goodman. Personally, I think that the Squawks have the best fan base in the Patriot League, but at their best I see them averaging 10,000-12,000. Lafayette is probably next in the League and, again, at their best, probably would average 8,000-10,000.

I believe with a perfect storm Lehigh could average 14-15k one year. It would have to be a year Lafayette came to Goodman. Historically speaking Lehigh has been good for 10-11k. The previous couple of years have been the exception rather than the rule if you look at the last 30 years or so. Lehigh could pull off a home and home with anyone in the country if they offered schollies imo. If a top 20 Lehigh could get a Delaware, App State or a Montana at home they might be able to get 17-18k. Lehigh did pull in 16,900 for a Bucknell game in 2000.

[ngineer]

This would seem to underscore the principal reason why UConn or BC would travel to a competitive scholarship HC. Truly - BC or UConn fans "care" about a game against HC, all other factors aside. There's not really specific. business or economically-related explanation for it. Neither school would travel to play most FCS schools, but HC is just "different."

For the same reasons, you could probably get Rutgers to play at a competitive, scholarship-based Lehigh or Lafayette. Both schools are very well known by Rutgers students and alumni, and Rutgers played both forever and ever until the major NCAA realignment in the 70s. Again, Rutgers probably would not travel to play, for example, a SoCon or a OVC team, but Laf/LU are just "different" from a Rutgers standpoint. It's hard to explain, but is just "is." Penn and Princeton would find the same space vis-a-vis Rutgers.

I'd love to see the renewal of the Rutgers/Lehigh, Rutgers/Lafayette rivalry in all sports. FWIW, the Rutgers recommitment to wrestling is paying dividends in attendance and for that reason Lehigh's dual meet with the Scarlet Knights will take place in Stabler Arena as they are expecting a large NJ contingent traveling the hour or so to Lehigh. With scholarships, renewing those series would be great. A Rutgers/Lehigh football game is one 'non-Lehigh/Lafayette game that would fill Goodman.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It won't happen but HC's football fortunes attendence/interest-wise) are much better suited toward a realigned PL with UNH and Maine.

I'm a little surprised you wouldn't be a little more bullish, then, about my original proposal: a scholarship PL with some proviso to include UNH and Maine. As someone else said you'd still get games with UMass... as long as they stay FCS, of course.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The kind of crowds I envision will come after Lehigh establishes regular influence on Top Ten play, does well in playoffs, gets a money game here and there (and is competitive).

Bigger crowds are also driven by the local media. The Morning Call/WFMZ would fall all over Lehigh if it is ranked in the FCS top five, plays a Rutgers, a Temple, etc. I think you'll both agree, during the past five years, most new Lehigh Valley residents have come from bigger metropolitan areas in Jersey and New York. They don't come with any interest in the Muhlenbergs and Moravians. They might bring an interest in a regular NATIONAL player that receives good media attention.

When Lehigh does well against nationally-ranked FCS teams, people come to the games. (Not in the same numbers as "The Rivalry", but not bad either.) If Lehigh played a few more FBS teams - and beat them - it would add more excitement. When Lehigh beat FBS Buffalo in 2002, it was pretty exciting times on South Mountain even though the overall year was a disappointment.


Yes, the Lehigh Valley appreciates good high school football. Wouldn't it have been nice to make equal offers to the Liberty and Easton stars who are now hooked-up with Stanford, Pittsburgh, Boston College and Northwestern?

We're not getting those players. If you get a full ride at Northwestern, you take it. I like Lehigh as much as the next guy, but let's get realistic here.

[ngineer]

I believe with a perfect storm Lehigh could average 14-15k one year. It would have to be a year Lafayette came to Goodman. Historically speaking Lehigh has been good for 10-11k. The previous couple of years have been the exception rather than the rule if you look at the last 30 years or so. Lehigh could pull off a home and home with anyone in the country if they offered schollies imo. If a top 20 Lehigh could get a Delaware, App State or a Montana at home they might be able to get 17-18k. Lehigh did pull in 16,900 for a Bucknell game in 2000.

That game was a 'perfect storm'..October 21, 2000:

Lehigh undefeated with a regular game winning record of 27-1 to that point going back through 1998. Temperature was in 60's and brilliant sunshine with South Mountain in fall foliage in the background, and to top it off it was Parents' Weekend. Bucknell gave the Mountain Hawks a good game, too, with Lehigh winning 21-14. Actual attendance was 16,906 and the ONLY non-Lafayette game to date to sell out. On page 48 of the Media Guide, there is Lehigh's annual attendance figures going back to 1988 (Goodman's first year). The total average is also listed, through 2008 at 9,785. I believe this year's was just under 9,000 so that is a tad lower. If you back out the last four years of mediocrity, the average does get slightly above 10,000. I remember seeing a table showing attendance going back several decades covering Taylor Stadium, and the seasonal average was always ranging between 7,500 and 12,000, and of course, the average always gets 'bumped' in odd numbered years when the Leopards visit.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

[/U][/B]

That game was a 'perfect storm'..October 21, 2000:

Lehigh undefeated with a regular game winning record of 27-1 to that point going back through 1998. Temperature was in 60's and brilliant sunshine with South Mountain in fall foliage in the background, and to top it off it was Parents' Weekend. Bucknell gave the Mountain Hawks a good game, too, with Lehigh winning 21-14. Actual attendance was 16,906 and the ONLY non-Lafayette game to date to sell out.

Can Lehigh technically sell-out for a non-Lafayette game? The Bucknell game might have "sold out" but i bet they would have still sold more tickets. Goodman should be good for 20k with elbow room. I still remember the '91 Lafayette game. With the duel end zone seats Goodman felt very much like a FBS facility that day. That was a fantastic home schedule in '91, W&M, Penn, Northeastern, Lafayette, Jay Fiedler led Darthmouth, #3 Holy Cross, WOW! What was the average that year?

[DFW HOYA]

After 214 posts, shouldn't the question be: Can the Patriot League be saved?

[ngineer]

[QUOTE=Go Lehigh TU owl;1508446]Can Lehigh technically sell-out for a non-Lafayette game? The Bucknell game might have "sold out" but i bet they would have still sold more tickets. Goodman should be good for 20k with elbow room. I still remember the '91 Lafayette game. With the duel end zone seats Goodman felt very much like a FBS facility that day. That was a fantastic \

1. Technically, Goodman seats 16,000 with permenant seating. They do not count the 'hill'. Tickets beyond 16,000 would be considered SRO--keep in mind the plaza above the hill. you could easily put temporary bleachers there for another couple thousand pushing you toward 25,000. At one time we did have bleachers in the north endzone, but they were removed.

2. Lehigh will not sell much beyond the 16,000 anymore after the near riot in '91 at the end of the Lafayette game. Concern over crowd control/safety. They could change that policy, but obviously no need to address it at present.

3. In 1991, Lehigh averaged attendance at 11,939, which was the 'high water mark' at Goodman until 1999 with second undefeated season (not including playoffs) with an average at 12,255, and which is the highest seasonal average in Goodman to date.

[Neighbor2]

And the answer for me is . . .

YES!

(but only if it positions itself on EQUAL footing with its associates)

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

3. In 1991, Lehigh averaged attendance at 11,939, which was the 'high water mark' at Goodman until 1999 with second undefeated season (not including playoffs) with an average at 12,255, and which is the highest seasonal average in Goodman to date.

Lehigh was actually 10-1 in '99. They lost to Colgate in Hamilton that year. With that said, from all the momentum the '98 team gained it's easy to see why that was such a good year attendance wise. They did that with what was really a blah home schedule.

[Seawolf97]

After 214 posts, shouldn't the question be: Can the Patriot League be saved?

Thank you-this was getting downright scaryxnodx

[Sader87]

To steal a Vietnam War era quote: "We had to destroy the Patriot League in order to save it."

[DFW HOYA]

To steal a Vietnam War era quote: "We had to destroy the Patriot League in order to save it."

And, unfortunately, isn't that the "lady or the tiger" paradox facing the PL Presidents?


Reject scholarships and at least one school is gone, with no realistic replacements on the horizon.
Go full bore on scholarships and risk losing one or more teams with potential Title IX impacts.
Let Fordham have scholarships but no one else, a recipe for trouble down the road.
Leave it to each school on its own, and invite an arms race among the schools.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

And, unfortunately, isn't that the "lady or the tiger" paradox facing the PL Presidents?


Reject scholarships and at least one school is gone, with no realistic replacements on the horizon.
Go full bore on scholarships and risk losing one or more teams with potential Title IX impacts.
Let Fordham have scholarships but no one else, a recipe for trouble down the road.
Leave it to each school on its own, and invite an arms race among the schools.


And potentially gain two or more schools down the road in expansion. The status quo will almost certainly result in none.

[Fordham]

... Leave it to each school on its own, and invite an arms race among the schools.
[/LIST]

How does this "arms race" play itself out?

[RichH2]

Very slowly, glaciers faster moving than PL

[LUHawker]

Mr. Neighbor makes some good points, but is overstating the drawing power of football at Goodman. Personally, I think that the Squawks have the best fan base in the Patriot League, but at their best I see them averaging 10,000-12,000. Lafayette is probably next in the League and, again, at their best, probably would average 8,000-10,000. Holy Cross has done well recently with Randolph. It will be interesting to see how they do without him. Colgate deserves better than the 5,000 or so that they average, but just look at a map. Fordham is taking a giant leap into its football future with inferior facilities, not much of a fan base, and a location where they are simply lost in the immensity of it all. As for the other two,...

Oh yeah, and scholarships aren't going to change this very much.

In general, I would agree, but think that I'd move the Lehigh draw figure up a couple k. I remember many full and even packed houses in the early 90's when Lehigh was highly ranked and playing bigger name teams like then Holy Cross, W&M, etc. I'm not sure it ever regularly fills Goodman, but 12-13k average is very attainable. Keys, of course, are quality play and a meaningful opponent. The weather has been unkind to Lehigh's attendance from 05-08 ('09 was quite good however; the team, of course, laid big eggs for the first 2/3rds of the season)

[colorless raider]

And, unfortunately, isn't that the "lady or the tiger" paradox facing the PL Presidents?


Reject scholarships and at least one school is gone, with no realistic replacements on the horizon.
Go full bore on scholarships and risk losing one or more teams with potential Title IX impacts.
Let Fordham have scholarships but no one else, a recipe for trouble down the road.
Leave it to each school on its own, and invite an arms race among the schools.


I select option #4 for Colgate.

[carney2]

In general, I would agree, but think that I'd move the Lehigh draw figure up a couple k. I remember many full and even packed houses in the early 90's when Lehigh was highly ranked and playing bigger name teams like then Holy Cross, W&M, etc. I'm not sure it ever regularly fills Goodman, but 12-13k average is very attainable. Keys, of course, are quality play and a meaningful opponent. The weather has been unkind to Lehigh's attendance from 05-08 ('09 was quite good however; the team, of course, laid big eggs for the first 2/3rds of the season)

Please not the use of the term 'average" in my earlier post.

[Model Citizen]

And, unfortunately, isn't that the "lady or the tiger" paradox facing the PL Presidents?


Reject scholarships and at least one school is gone, with no realistic replacements on the horizon.
Go full bore on scholarships and risk losing one or more teams with potential Title IX impacts.
Let Fordham have scholarships but no one else, a recipe for trouble down the road.
Leave it to each school on its own, and invite an arms race among the schools.


It sounds like the only difference between options 2 and 4 is whether the PL kicks out members who don't get up to a certain equivalency level. And I think option 4 is a lot more likely.

Which would leave Georgetown...where exactly?

[Bogus Megapardus]

It sounds like the only difference between options 2 and 4 is whether the PL kicks out members who don't get up to a certain equivalency level. And I think option 4 is a lot more likely.

Which would leave Georgetown...where exactly?

I don't think the PL can (or will, even if it could) kick out members, particularly full/founding members. If there is an irreconcilable schism, the league simply would have to dissolve into a scholarship camp and a needs-based camp. The camps either could form a new conference, or join an existing one.

The league's AQ, of course, is a valuable asset. It would be lost if the league dissolves, and neither "camp" necessarily would have a legitimate claim to it. That's a good incentive for the league to remain intact. That also assumes, of course, that the presidents and their constituencies (whomsoever they might be in any given case) view the AQ as vital. I know this sounds silly to most, but keep in mind that these are the same institutions that voted to abstain from any post-season play at all until just over a decade ago. They do not think, or view the world, as do former athletes or football fans.