170-35 in TX High School Hoops Game Sparks Controversy

[TexasTerror]

The game between Yates and Lee HS in the Houston area is getting some national pub. A quick glance on the internet shows that it made Pardon the Interruption and USA Today amongst other forms of media...

What's your thoughts on a 170-35 ballgame? Do you feel that it a sign of disrespect? A lack of sportsmanship?

Here's some links...

* Houston Chronicle blog (http://blogs.chron.com/prepsports/2010/01/yates_strikes_up_a_conversatio.html)

* Houston Press blog (http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2010/01/170-35_basketball_game.php)

* Albany Newspaper blog (http://blog.timesunion.com/sidelines/is-170-points-enough/3334/)

* Houston ISD AD responds (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/hso/6802183.html)

* USA Today Write-Up (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/basketball/2010-01-06-yates-lee-rout_N.htm)

[UNHWildCats]

A team cant just completely shut down. They had backups in which they should, what I dont agree with was they kept attacking. Just play a relaxed tempo and if you get points great.

[Seahawks Fan]

All I know is the final score, and my thought is: ridiculous. We'll be hearing soon how the coach tried his best to hold down the score. But this is what sports has come to today. What the hell has happened to sportsmanship?

[TexasTerror]

Said the Yates' coach...


We practice running, pressing, trapping every day,” he said. “If we get to a game and I tell them not to do what we do in practice, I am not coaching well. I am not leaving my starters in the whole game. We have 15 guys, and all 15 play.”

Wise said he shouldn't have to tell his “third line” they can't go out and score.

“They work really hard in practice, and when they go in, they deserve the chance to play hard and compete, too,” Wise said. “We are looking for another state championship, and we can't get that unless we are continuing to get better and perfect our game. We aren't scoring on other teams out of disrespect.”

From the coach on the other side...


“I feel very disrespected right now,” Lee coach Jacques Armant said. “I don't understand why Yates just kept scoring and pressing when they were up so much. These are kids. It isn't good to do that to other young men.”


“No coach wants to put his kids in a position to be embarrassed,” he said. “We have great kids on our team, hard workers, and I am proud that they played the whole game tonight, but you can see how coaches are hesitant to put their kids on the floor with a team that is going to score on them that way.”

(Credit: Houston Chronicle (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/hso/6800394.html))

[furpal87]

I will say fans amaze me everywhere, but Texas seems especially crazy to me between all the fans I read backing Leach, and the fans who defend this. Both are indefensible. Once you go +50 or 60 that's enough. At 100-12 at half, call it off. I think the state record was 150, then you absolutely do. This is totally ridiculous because it's high school!!! That coach should be fired and the school suspended from the state's playoffs.

[Head Cat]

After reading all of this, I have to say the winning coach should have his butt in a sling. Terrible sportsmanship and plenty of excuses. First off, his team wasn't learning ANYTHING that would help them in the state playoffs. That is the first bunch of bull. The AD was also out of line. The coach put his starters back in, leading 100-12, at the start of the second half. And there is no need to press and trap in the half court when you are blowing a team out. The 100-12 lead in the first half I could live with, but after that, call off the dogs. The officials could have intervened as well. If I am officiating a game and some kids are pressing with a 100-point lead, I am calling fouls and putting the other team on the line if the winning team gets close to them. Foul a bunch of those hot shots out and maybe they might back off their press. I hope this team and this coach gets their butts handed to them in the playoffs. See how they like being humiliated.

[Cocky]

Yates must be good. They beat Butler here in Alabama easily and they are real good. Butler will most likely win the State Championship so Yates maybe so good they did turn it down.

[TexasTerror]

Yates must be good. They beat Butler here in Alabama easily and they are real good. Butler will most likely win the State Championship so Yates maybe so good they did turn it down.

Yates is ranked in the top five in all the major high school basketball rankings - though I have never been quite sure how they make those rankings.

Really, the only time you see the teams head to head is when they play in the major national tournaments across the country as Yates did in winning tournaments in Alabama and Hawaii.

[89Hen]

Did all the kids from the winning team play significant time? If so... STFU. xcoolx

[TexasTerror]

They are still talking about this game in the Houston media - listening to sports radio now.

People are calling for a running clock and no press once it hits 40, similar to AAU rules. They are criticizing the Yates HS coach for saying that he needed to protect their scoring average of 100+.

The radio host said there is a game coming up against Houston Davis HS in which the Yates HS coach said they are capable of scoring over 200 points. Keep in mind, Yates plays Lee HS again in a few weeks...

[OhioHen]

Man up and play some defense and hold onto the ball on offense. THAT's how you avoid losing by 135 points.

[Seahawks Fan]

Did all the kids from the winning team play significant time? If so... STFU. xcoolx

Bullbleep. Call the dogs off. Enough is enough. xnodx

[JMUNJ08]

After reading all of this, I have to say the winning coach should have his butt in a sling. Terrible sportsmanship and plenty of excuses. First off, his team wasn't learning ANYTHING that would help them in the state playoffs. That is the first bunch of bull. The AD was also out of line. The coach put his starters back in, leading 100-12, at the start of the second half. And there is no need to press and trap in the half court when you are blowing a team out. The 100-12 lead in the first half I could live with, but after that, call off the dogs. The officials could have intervened as well. If I am officiating a game and some kids are pressing with a 100-point lead, I am calling fouls and putting the other team on the line if the winning team gets close to them. Foul a bunch of those hot shots out and maybe they might back off their press. I hope this team and this coach gets their butts handed to them in the playoffs. See how they like being humiliated.

That's what I did for intramurals. Its a joke at that point. Call fouls and make them back off. Toss the coach if he doesn't like it.

Teams DO NOT learn anything playing their style against an inferior opponent. I can attest to that. The only thing I could say if he told his kids no pressing and only uncontested lay-ups for shots. That way you learn to move the ball and find the open man. It takes some time to do that so it will slow the game down and the kids don't get embarrassed too much.

When will AD's/parents/players of these teams learn sportsmanship? Our best players were pulled if we got up 20! That is a huge margin for a high school team to come back from since normal scores range 50-60 points in a 32 minute game...

[appmaj]

Coach sounds like a jerk. Unless Texas is different than North Carolina there is no shot clock in high school basketball. Hold the ball and take fewer shots.

[89Hen]

Bullbleep. Call the dogs off. Enough is enough. xnodx
What dogs? If it's your bench, do you not let them play at all? xconfusedx

[89Hen]

Hold the ball and take fewer shots.
Why not just have them stop the game? xcoolx

[89Hen]

Teams DO NOT learn anything playing their style against an inferior opponent. I can attest to that. The only thing I could say if he told his kids no pressing and only uncontested lay-ups for shots. That way you learn to move the ball and find the open man. It takes some time to do that so it will slow the game down and the kids don't get embarrassed too much.
Contradiction. Look, they can't help the level of play of another team. If you have 15 kids on the team and all 15 played, what the hell is the point of telling your 14th player to stop trying? xviolinx

[89Hen]

People are calling for a running clock and no press once it hits 40, similar to AAU rules.
I'm fine for the running clock, but change a fundamental rule of the game mid-stream? These aren't 7 year olds in peewee ball.

[Big Al]

No, but they're still kids. A HS coach is not just the coach of his team but he's a teacher and role model to all athletes on the court. No greater purpose is served by piling on the points. The coach has an obligation to show his players not just how to score points but the right way to win, as well. Part of that is showing some mercy on a team when they're clearly out of their element.

Instituting a running clock rule, banning full-court press and eliminating 3 point shots (you can take 'em but you only get two) are all reasonable steps, imho.

[89Hen]

Instituting a running clock rule, banning full-court press and eliminating 3 point shots (you can take 'em but you only get two) are all reasonable steps, imho.
Equally humiliating IMO. As is patronizing a team by playing keepaway.

I was on the losing side of a hockey game last weekend 10-0. If the other team stopped trying, I would have wanted to stop trying too.

As long as the starters were out, you keep playing the game.

[Seahawks Fan]

What dogs? If it's your bench, do you not let them play at all? xconfusedx


You tell them to slow the game down, pass the ball. You teach them something about sportsmanship. There is an old saying, what goes around comes around. xnodx

[WWII]

When I was coaching hockey, I just let all the first two lines sit and let the guys who usually get little or no ice time all of it. I also left them on ice for very extended shifts. It was pretty interesting when the kids would come to the bench for a change and we just said, stay out there. They scored a couple goals, but nothing like we could have. That coaches starters and maybe the first 7 should've been glued to the bench after getting up 20-30 points.

[89Hen]

You teach them something about sportsmanship. There is an old saying, what goes around comes around. xnodx
What's sportsmanlike about having your third line lay down? Seriously.

As for what goes around, do you really think this coach or these kids would be upset about another team letting them have it... that is, if they can.

[Dane96]

I think there is a line in between what 89 is saying and the rest of you.

There should be something in the middle....and it starts with intstituting the play clock.

From there, you can easily have the "superior team" run down the play clock before executing. And yes, that does teach the "superior team" things for playoff time, especially beating gap defenses (likely the weaker team is playing a variation the zone), learning passing lanes, and stall offenses...which are always required in a playoff run (see the famous "Carolina Four-Corners that Dean Smith used to utilze in the ACC and NCAA tourneys).

There is a happy medium out there...and its up to the Federations to temper it. However, to ask back-ups to laydown is just as unsportsmanlike and an insult; I would probably foul someone like that real hard because it would seem like patronizing my weak team.

[Big Al]

Equally humiliating IMO. As is patronizing a team by playing keepaway.

I was on the losing side of a hockey game last weekend 10-0. If the other team stopped trying, I would have wanted to stop trying too.

As long as the starters were out, you keep playing the game.

Yes, but if the 2nd & 3rd stringers are still running it up on the other team, then it is only sportsmanlike to call off the dogs. Winning isn't in doubt. Dominance isn't in doubt. Hell, even humiliation isn't in doubt.

So I ask, how is it humiliating? What is the point of pressing a team if they demonstrate they can't even get it in the basket when they get it on their side of the court? Isn't there value to teaching your players to work on shot blocking and play formation on the defensive end of the court, as well? Notice, also, I don't advocate banning the three point shot but if you're up by 40+, there's no need for the extra point vs. a field goal from inside the line.

Hell, I didn't even propose eliminating the fast break if you get a steal.

What did the extra points really get the team? Did they get to notch two wins in the record book instead of one? Did it give them bonus points come playoff time? No. They won the game and there was never any doubt they would win -- they could, however, have had the decency of not rubbing their competitors nose in the loss by piling on the points.

I remember in middle school we played a team that went around the country winning tourneys and the like. I was one of the biggest kids on the team and even their second stringers were as big as or bigger than me. It was pretty apparent after one quarter that we were completely outgunned. The opposing coach pulled the first string and even his backups were scoring, so then the press all but disappeared. They still played defense, though. Final score was 80something to like 34. It was a complete blowout but they were decent about not running up the score but still allowed us to try and play our game (which we couldn't do -- they had the weapons both offensively and defensively).

I guess that's my view -- you never call off your defense -- even in a rout -- but simply focusing on putting more and more points on the board is not good sportsmanship.

[89Hen]

However, to ask back-ups to laydown is just as unsportsmanlike and an insult; I would probably foul someone like that real hard because it would seem like patronizing my weak team.
xnodx

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Did no one's mom read them the story of the tortoise and the hare? I'm not telling my guys to not play their best ever. That isn't good sportsmanship.

[89Hen]

So I ask, how is it humiliating? What is the point of pressing a team if they demonstrate they can't even get it in the basket when they get it on their side of the court? Isn't there value to teaching your players to work on shot blocking and play formation on the defensive end of the court, as well?
You just said try shot blocking and shutting them down. What happens when it works?

This whole discussion is ludicrous. Either you're playing or you're not. Just stop the friggen game. What's the point in even being out there if one team isn't trying to stop you as best they can? xbangx

[89Hen]

I guess that's my view -- you never call off your defense -- even in a rout -- but simply focusing on putting more and more points on the board is not good sportsmanship.
Not sure why you try your hardest at defense if you're not trying on offense.

[JMUNJ08]

Contradiction. Look, they can't help the level of play of another team. If you have 15 kids on the team and all 15 played, what the hell is the point of telling your 14th player to stop trying? xviolinx

That point was pressing. Alot of teams run up the score by pressing the *(&(*#@#)$& out of inferior teams. There has to be a time to stop doing that. Moving the ball tells the 14th kid to try and work hard for that layup. They still get to play hard but the other team is still allowed to live at the end of the day...

[JMUNJ08]

Not sure why you try your hardest at defense if you're not trying on offense.

He makes a good point and I have seen it when I played in HS. We scouted a team we were to play in the playoffs. They had two D-1 recruits and a slew of guys 6-3+. We only had 3 guys even that tall: 1 was very athletic, 1 your typical slower big man, and a guy deep on the bench. Their opponent that day could not break the traps and get the ball up the court for the whole game. It was an easy win for them. They played sloppy and only worked hard on their traps to get more points.

However, come playoff time, we knew what to expect. Once we beat their traps they had to play good old fashion 1/2 court defense. Since they never had a team beat their traps all season, they never had to play 1/2 court D. This posed a HUGE problem for them. We ended up only losing by 3 after a furious comeback from them as they had the superior team. However, their lack of calling off the traps and playing 1/2 court D nearly hurt them when the games counted most.

Hope they get whats coming to them (if someone has enough mustard xrotatehx)

[Big Al]

You just said try shot blocking and shutting them down. What happens when it works?

That's what the running clock is for -- end the game as quickly as possible.


This whole discussion is ludicrous. Either you're playing or you're not. Just stop the friggen game. What's the point in even being out there if one team isn't trying to stop you as best they can? xbangx

So, you're advocating a 50 point rule or something like that? Even that is better than hanging 170 on an over-matched opponent.

[89Hen]

Moving the ball tells the 14th kid to try and work hard for that layup.
xconfusedx Having them play a different kind of offense then they'd normally play... what does that teach?

[89Hen]

So, you're advocating a 50 point rule or something like that?
No. I'm saying play the game. The "Just stop the friggen game" was in reply to the other alternatives of laying down. Laying down is just as humiliating as running up the score IMO.

[EPJr]

I blame the Lee coach
He don't have any players - none
He knew that before the game and is probably not much of a coach
He could have stopped the game at any point if he was THAT concerned about his short no playing kids.
Lee is only good in soccer because the school is full of short hispanic boys.

[Seahawks Fan]

I blame the Lee coach
He don't have any players - none
He knew that before the game and is probably not much of a coach
He could have stopped the game at any point if he was THAT concerned about his short no playing kids.
Lee is only good in soccer because the school is full of short hispanic boys.


This thread is getting weirder by the minute.

[Big Al]

No. I'm saying play the game. The "Just stop the friggen game" was in reply to the other alternatives of laying down. Laying down is just as humiliating as running up the score IMO.

I know we're not going to agree on the approach but I actually do agree that they should play the game. However, the opponent's play should dictate the type of game you play. If you know they're hot in the paint, you try to take it away and force them outside. If they're bad and you're beating the snot out of them, you don't concentrate on putting up points -- you play defense.

*shrugs*

[gmoney55]

Texas has a shot clock like most states, right? 35 seconds? When I was in HS we had a "five-pass" rule before a shot once the game was in hand, and couldn't shoot before the clock hit under 10. This would be a reasonable way to still play the game but not run up the possessions. And it's easy not to fastbreak on steals if you just pull it out right away.

[blueballs]

Part of growing up is learning what you can do and what you can't, and if you get beat by 135 points you ain't a basketball player and need to find something else to turn your attention and efforts toward that suits your talents and will result in more positive results.

By the same token it serves no good for a coach to tell his players to back off and reward inferiority on the part of an opponent. Those kids on the winning team should be playing as hard as they can and running their systems regardless of the score.

I am positive in this statement which is analagous to this situation: I will NEVER stop taking in new business just because I am blowing away my competition for the purposes of bolstering their self esteem and saving them embarrassment. If they can't run with the big dogs they need to get in another race.

That being said, if I was the winning coach in this case I would have not pressed defensively after getting up by 30, instituted a 5 pass rule offensively, told the refs to swallow the whistle when my team had the ball, asked for a running clock, and finally, I would never schedule that opponent again.

[813Jag]

Part of growing up is learning what you can do and what you can't, and if you get beat by 135 points you ain't a basketball player and need to find something else to turn your attention and efforts toward that suits your talents and will result in more positive results.

By the same token it serves no good for a coach to tell his players to back off and reward inferiority on the part of an opponent. Those kids on the winning team should be playing as hard as they can and running their systems regardless of the score.

I am positive in this statement which is analagous to this situation: I will NEVER stop taking in new business just because I am blowing away my competition for the purposes of bolstering their self esteem and saving them embarrassment. If they can't run with the big dogs they need to get in another race.

That being said, if I was the winning coach in this case I would have not pressed defensively after getting up by 30, instituted a 5 pass rule offensively, told the refs to swallow the whistle when my team had the ball, asked for a running clock, and finally, I would never schedule that opponent again.
I believe that was a district game, so not much they can do about not playing them. I read some where that Lee has lost most games by at least 20 points. So maybe they just don't belong at that level.

[TexasTerror]

I believe that was a district game, so not much they can do about not playing them. I read some where that Lee has lost most games by at least 20 points. So maybe they just don't belong at that level.

Houston ISD does not want to separate their teams...

Lee is a different kind of HISD school. Said on this thread before. They are mostly international students and soccer is their top sport (they hold homecoming during it) and they dumped their football program a few years back, namely after Westside HS took some of the more affluent students away from their school...

[TexasTerror]

A blog entry on the recent game, plus the Yates coach responding to criticism...

http://blogs.chron.com/prepsports/2010/01/yates_beats_sharpstown_wise_cl.html

My favorite comment is...


Here's what Wise "cleared up":

1. If the situation occurs again, he would do the exact same thing.
2. Apparently his kids aren't thugs or punks - though I don't recall reading ANYONE calling them such.
3. The "poor, victimized" Lions are now using the garbage to form a "no respect", "us against the world" attitude for the rest of the season. Whatever.

[jstate83]

If you are this sorry, don't get your butt on the playing surface.
I get so sick of whinners WHINNING after they get beat down.
I don't blame YATES coach in saying he would not do anything different if it happens again.
Enough is enough.


Lee's ballers need to face facts.xlolx
THEY STINK no matter how good the other team is.
TEXAS seem to have a lot of these whinning schools.
Last year a girls coach got fired for beating a sorry team like this.

Again.
DON'T EVER, EVER COME TO PLAY A SPORT IN MISSISSIPPI IF YOU ARE THIS SORRY. xnonox
Sports here is old fashion.
We have clear winners and losers. xlolx

[89Hen]

01.11.10

The day 89Hen and jstate83 agree on something.... coincidence? SCARY. xeekx :p

[TexasTerror]

Rick Reilly is even talking about it now...


If Wise doesn't stop, somebody's going to get hurt. In a Feb. 20 home game, Wise refused to pull his foot off the accelerator in a 132-68 fricasseeing of Booker T. Washington. Nobody likes to be humiliated, and this includes fans. Like at some of Yates' games, there was fighting. This time it happened in the parking lot afterward. Shots were fired, though nobody was hurt. This time.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=reilly_rick&id=4977305

[JMU Newbill]

This isn't pee wee, or rec league, or even club level ball. This is varsity level high school athletics. I'm sorry, but if you can't compete, you have to take your beating like a man. In life, if someone is way more qualified for a job than you are, no amount of whining or crying for sportsmanship is going to get you that job. Should the more qualified job candidate mess up in his interview so the less qualified person has a better shot? Hell no.

You talk about wanting to teach kids lessons (sportsmanship), well why don't you teach them that the reality is you get what you earn. Not every kid is going to be an astronaut, not every kid is going to be an all star basketball player, and until people in this generation stop inserting the idea into kids heads that they can be anything they want to be as long as they try, we are going to have a generation of spoiled kids that think if they break a sweat they have earned something.

I coach high school and travel volleyball. There are teams that we play that literally cannot get the ball back over the net. We have won numerous sets 25-3, 25-2, 25-1, and even 25-0. I have also been on the opposite side of beatings that bad, both in travel ball and high school ball, as a player and as a coach. I've lost in national level club soccer tournaments by 10 goals, I've won by that amount, as a player and as a coach. Should I tell my girls to serve into the net on purpose so the other team can have a chance? Hell no! What's more embarrassing, giving it everything you got and losing by 100 points, or having the other team "feel sorry for you" and start letting you get points. Give me a break. Some of you obviously never played any sports at a competitive level. Any by competitive, I don't mean rec, or your after work softball league. Or the chess team.