Patriot League Alumni Surveys?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

In the past week or so, both Lehigh and Lafayette were send, via email, online survey gauging their interest in a bunch of different topics, but both asked, in effect, "how important are athletics to you?"

Lafayette:

http://lafayettesports.myfreeforum.org/about914.html

Lehigh:

http://www.lehighsportsforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=324&sid=6a1080e8f880000672de484d12d1688d

This was brought up on the other thread, but it's worth discussing: is such a survey something to be concerned about? And are alums of other Patriot League schools being sent the same survey?

It's coming in a climate of hostility to football that I have never seen.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I would be concerned if the questions were phrased to give a Hobson's choice, i.e., "should the college spend its resources on enhancing athletics or hiring really good professors." But they're not that bad. The number of questions devoted to athletics is of interest. However, we have to keep in mind that there are only a handful of private colleges of the size and top 50 academic stature that support 20+ D1 sports including football. That makes PL colleges distictive, and thus a major attribute for inclusion on any "branding" survey.

The fact that Lehigh and Lafayette seem to be doing it at the same time raised my eyebrows, of course.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Fair points. But I am very, very, very curious if our PL brethren are getting similar surveys - and that includes you too, Fordham and Georgetown.

[Ken_Z]

nothing from Bucknell

[Bogus Megapardus]

But I am very, very, very curious if our PL brethren are getting similar surveys

"Marketing and Branding are SimpsonScarborough's hallmark services. By applying the field's most innovative marketing and branding tactics, we help colleges and universities define their brand and implement marketing strategies. Recent marketing and branding clients include College of the Holy Cross . . ."

Et tu, Crusaders?

[Franks Tanks]

I would be concerned if the questions were phrased to give a Hobson's choice, i.e., "should the college spend its resources on enhancing athletics or hiring really good professors." But they're not that bad. The number of questions devoted to athletics is of interest. However, we have to keep in mind that there are only a handful of private colleges of the size and top 50 academic stature that support 20+ D1 sports including football. That makes PL colleges distictive, and thus a major attribute for inclusion on any "branding" survey.

The fact that Lehigh and Lafayette seem to be doing it at the same time raised my eyebrows, of course.

I made these points very clear on the survey as well.

Colgate, Bucknell, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Davidson, Furman and Richmond shine like a beacon in the athletics wasteland of small liberal arts colleges. It makes us unique

[Fordham]

Nothing I've seen or am aware of

[Bogus Megapardus]

I made these points very clear on the survey as well.

Colgate, Bucknell, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Davidson, Furman and Richmond shine like a beacon in the athletics wasteland of small liberal arts colleges. It makes us unique

I just browsed through the marketing firm's website. These are not geniuses by any measure. They're going to collect raw data, plug those data into preconceived blocks drawn from literature authored by much smarter people, and draw up "conclusions and recommendations" designed to sell their own marketing services. Think of it as taking an on-line personality survey, except that it's really, really expensive so you think it's somehow more credible.

I just hope our people (a) know what they're doing and (b) don't put too much stock into the recommendations. The marketing firm that sent this stuff out claims to have several dozen colleges and universities as clients, which leads me to conclude (perhaps irresponsibly) that we're looking to (a) conform to some sort of banal "branding strategy" derived from somebody's second-rate B-school texts, and/or (b) do "what everyone else is doing" because it's safe and non-controversial. I'd rather be different, cut against the grain and do it my way, but that's just me.



EDIT - our future might just lie with an interpretation of our responses and recommendations made by this individual:

Link (http://www.simpsonscarborough.com/Mills.html)

I see that she used to be an "event planner." Should I be worried?

[Franks Tanks]

I just browsed through the marketing firm's website. These are not geniuses by any measure. They're going to collect raw data, plug those data into preconceived blocks drawn from literature authored by much smarter people, and draw up "conclusions and recommendations" designed to sell their own marketing services. Think of it as taking an on-line personality survey, except that it's really, really expensive so you think it's somehow more credible.

I just hope our people (a) know what they're doing and (b) don't put too much stock into the recommendations. The marketing firm that sent this stuff out claims to have several dozen colleges and universities as clients, which leads me to conclude (perhaps irresponsibly) that we're looking to (a) conform to some sort of banal "branding strategy" derived from somebody's second-rate B-school texts, and/or (b) do "what everyone else is doing" because it's safe and non-controversial. I'd rather be different, cut against the grain and do it my way, but that's just me.



EDIT - our future might just lie with an interpretation of our responses and recommendations made by this individual:

Link (http://www.simpsonscarborough.com/Mills.html)

I see that she used to be an "event planner." Should I be worried?

Eh-- dont overstate the influence of the "project manager" here. She just gets this junk sent-up and gathers the data it seems.

[DFW HOYA]

No surveys I am aware of.

[jimbo65]

Fair points. But I am very, very, very curious if our PL brethren are getting similar surveys - and that includes you too, Fordham and Georgetown.

LFN, Fordham did not send me anything but strangely Lehigh did. I suggested they downgrade to D 3 and signed your name to the response.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN, Fordham did not send me anything but strangely Lehigh did. I suggested they downgrade to D 3 and signed your name to the response.

xlolx

[Bogus Megapardus]

I see that the same firm recently completed a study and presented conclusions at American U.

[Franks Tanks]

I see that the same firm recently completed a study and presented conclusions at American U.

Can you name the firm-- I can find the e-mail

[Bogus Megapardus]

Can you name the firm-- I can find the e-mail

Simpson Scarborough

Link (http://www.simpsonscarborough.com/)

[Franks Tanks]

Simpson Scarborough

Link (http://www.simpsonscarborough.com/)

Thanks

Looks like Holy Cross recently used their service as well

Recent marketing and branding clients include College of the Holy Cross, Western Michigan University, Berry College, Wheeling Jesuit University, Southern Illinois University Carbondale, and Dowling College.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www4.lehigh.edu/news/newsarticle.aspx?Channel=%2FChannels%2FNews%3A+200 9-2010&WorkflowItemID=8564ebfa-e884-47a9-8114-9f2bc660383b


Thankful for Lehigh

It’s November! A time of fall, food, family, and—of course—Lehigh-Lafayette festivities, which are in full swing. Last week, more than 60 gigantic boxes left our offices bound for destinations ranging from London to Waikiki, filled with Brown & White goodies that will bring a little bit of Lehigh to our worldwide telecast parties.

On campus, tradition reigns. Spirit Week is under way, with the bonfire, bed races, and much, much more. This year’s bed races were held on the new Vresics Library Drive Walkway, and those curves and cobblestones added to the challenge—and the excitement!

I hope that my talk of “The Game” stirs up memories of your Lehigh family and our great university. Keep those in mind when you receive our alumni survey, coming your way in the near future. Your opinions are important as we shape our programs and how we support them going forward.

The outfit doing the survey is:

http://www.pegltd.com/

I really don't like the sound of either this survey, or Lafayette's.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Pards and Engineers - can/should we attempt to shape the analysts' conclusions through some sort of direct contact with the respective firms? Or would this be unwise?

[carney2]

http://www4.lehigh.edu/news/newsarticle.aspx?Channel=%2FChannels%2FNews%3A+200 9-2010&WorkflowItemID=8564ebfa-e884-47a9-8114-9f2bc660383b



The outfit doing the survey is:

http://www.pegltd.com/

I really don't like the sound of either this survey, or Lafayette's.

Why? It seems innocuous enough on the surface. I suppose that "wrong" responses to the few questions that include something about D-1 athletics as a possible answer could lead somewhere that none of us on this board want to go, but...

My uninformed opinion is that these surveys are a logical extension of the kind of thinking that first appeared in the New York Times interview with Lafayette President Dan Weiss (sorry, no link) when he voiced concern about how small, elite, high priced, non-Ivy colleges will emerge from the current recession. He appears concerned about the continued willingness to pay $50,000+ per year for a diploma where the other name is Bucknell, Colgate, Lafayette, Lehigh, etc. and not Harvard, Yale or Princeton. In my opinion, these surveys are an attempt to identify strengths and weaknesses for strategic planning and marketing.

On the other hand, everything appears to be a threat to D-1 football as we enter the new decade. The trick is to be vigilant, but to avoid paranoia which could become self defeating.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Why? It seems innocuous enough on the surface. I suppose that "wrong" responses to the few questions that include something about D-1 athletics as a possible answer could lead somewhere that none of us on this board want to go, but...

My uninformed opinion is that these surveys are a logical extension of the kind of thinking that first appeared in the New York Times interview with Lafayette President Dan Weiss (sorry, no link) when he voiced concern about how small, elite, high priced, non-Ivy colleges will emerge from the current recession. He appears concerned about the continued willingness to pay $50,000+ per year for a diploma where the other name is Bucknell, Colgate, Lafayette, Lehigh, etc. and not Harvard, Yale or Princeton. In my opinion, these surveys are an attempt to identify strengths and weaknesses for strategic planning and marketing.

On the other hand, everything appears to be a threat to D-1 football as we enter the new decade. The trick is to be vigilant, but to avoid paranoia which could become self defeating.

I agree with your thinking here, carney, but then again I've never had a letter with a Lehigh letterhead on it saying "Your opinions are important as we shape our programs and how we support them going forward." The fellow makes it sound like the way the program is supported is up for some sort of debate, and that this survey is a part of that.

To me, the program is supported, the funding for the AD (Lehigh's anyway) is an endowed position, there's a football trust, and everything will be alright once we finally get rid of that silly restriction on merit-based aid where we will find our Rightful Place in the World alongside Richmond and Villanova in the pantheon of FCS championship winners. This letter didn't strike me as being in alignment with my goals.

I may still be shell-shocked from Hofstra, but these two surveys just worry me. It may be time to mention on my yearly check to Lehigh how that check will disappear if we become a I-AAA or D-III program.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Look at Tommy Amaker's squad at Harvard and tell me they're not taking their D1 sports seriously in Cambridge and trying to make a splash on a national scale:

Link (http://www.gocrimson.com/sports/mbkb/2009-10/releases/091217_MBB_Feature)

And look at the masthead - "Leadership and Competitive Excellence in Division 1 Athletics." Maybe we should strive for less?

[Bogus Megapardus]

OK maybe the Simpson/Scarborough people might not be the partially-educated dunderheads I thought them to be at my first inkling. It looks as if MIT-Sloan has hired them as well.

Here's a memo from the American U. Trustee Chair in part announcing implementation of a Simpson/Scarborough "campus branding initiative:"

AU (http://www.american.edu/trustees/upload/120109.pdf)

Quaere: If all PL colleges engage in competing branding initiatives, who wins? Will there be a branding champion? Playoffs, maybe? :)

[ngineer]

I don't recall getting any survey. Of course, I may have thought it spam and deleted it. As a season ticket holder in football and wrestling, I would think I would have gotten one.xconfusedx

[Sader87]

Haven't received anything from HC (other than mailings and emails for more alumni contributions) on the order of a similar survey.

[carney2]

Haven't received anything from HC (other than mailings and emails for more alumni contributions) on the order of a similar survey.

Elizabeth Scarborough's bio on the SimpsonScarborough website (http://www.simpsonscarborough.com/scarborough.html) indicates that Holy Cross is a client. I think that a mention here means that your inquisition has already been completed.

[jimbo65]

Look at Tommy Amaker's squad at Harvard and tell me they're not taking their D1 sports seriously in Cambridge and trying to make a splash on a national scale:

Link (http://www.gocrimson.com/sports/mbkb/2009-10/releases/091217_MBB_Feature)

And look at the masthead - "Leadership and Competitive Excellence in Division 1 Athletics." Maybe we should strive for less?

Cornell is taking bball seriously as well, including last night's win over St John's at MSG and earlier wins versus Alabama & St. Joe's. When I saw the Bama score, thought it was a misprint.

[CrusaderBob]

I haven't gotten anything recently.

A search of the HC web-site shows that SimpsonScarborough did an alumni survey alomst 3 years ago. I have a vague recollection of it and there was nothing significant with regard to athletcis that I recall. Here's a link to the discussion we had on our board at the time.

http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/archive.php?ac=t&forumid=33741&date=05-17-2007&t=1564953-1

To see a very small portion of the results (and the only mention I could find in an HC publication), click the link below and scroll down to the back cover.

http://www.holycross.edu/departments/publicaffairs/hcm/fall07/features/cover.html

I don't think the survey Lehigh and Lafayette Alums are getting is anything too different. I wouldn't read anythig too positive or negative into it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Might that survey have led to this?

http://www.telegram.com/article/20090321/NEWS/903210485/1009


Holy Cross will offer athletic scholarships in men’s ice hockey, men’s and women’s soccer and field hockey beginning this fall.

“It’s something we felt we needed to do to be competitive,” Holy Cross director of athletics Dick Regan said.

I'm just wondering if perhaps "fielding a good ice hockey team" might have been one of the conclusions from their report. I'm not sure this is the case, but I wonder.

[aceinthehole]

Might that survey have led to this?

http://www.telegram.com/article/20090321/NEWS/903210485/1009



I'm just wondering if perhaps "fielding a good ice hockey team" might have been one of the conclusions from their report. I'm not sure this is the case, but I wonder.

Quinnipiac was selected to join ECAC hockey in place of HC because they did not commit to 2 basic conference requests:

1) Improve current ice hockey facility
2) Add scholarships for Women's Ice Hockey

From the scuttlebut at the time, the ECAC wanted HC more than QU, but they were unwilling or uable to invest in these 2 areas. They were left out of the ECAC because of it.

QU had the $$$ and commitment to both its hockey programs and now it's paying huge dividends, as the Bobcats are a nationally ranked Men's team and they are drawing good crowds to their state of the art facility. A very wise move on their part.
http://www.quinnipiacbobcats.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=17500&KEY=&SPID=10456&SPSID=87917

IMO - HC was a day late and a dollar short. For the sake of the PL, you should hope that's not the same strategy they take in football.

[DFW HOYA]

FWIW, scholarships in ice hockey and soccer mean scholarship dollars that aren't available for football. HC's Regan said that scholarships were "something we felt we needed to do to be competitive". Does that hold true for football, or is the PL presidents still content being where they are?

[carney2]

I never quite understood the Holy Cross decision to grant ice hockey scholarships. Consider:

Most Patriot League and similar schools have two rallying point (color that "important" as determined by the student body and alumni) sports. IMO they are

BUCKNELL: Men's basketball and...well...men's basketball

COLGATE: Football and ice hockey

FORDHAM: Football and men's basketball

GEORGETOWN: Men's basketball

HOLY CROSS: Football and men's basketball (and ice hockey?)

LAFAYETTE: Football and men's basketball (if they ever get a team)

LEHIGH: Football and wrestling

The odd thing about Holy Cross if ice hockey is a rallying point sport, is that it is the only PL school with 3 such activities and the only one with two that go head to head in the same season.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Most Patriot League and similar schools have two rallying point (color that "important" as determined by the student body and alumni) sports.

Georgetown has HUGE lacrosse in addition to basketball.

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown has HUGE lacrosse in addition to basketball.

Football still outdraws men's lacrosse:

Averages By Sport, Top Five
1. Men's Basketball: 12,826 (capacity 20,500)
2. Football: 2,511 (capacity: 2,400)
3. Men's Lacrosse: 1,517 (capacity: 2,400)
4. Men's Soccer: 1,130 (capacity: 1,400)
5. Women's Lacrosse: 683 (capacity: 1,400)

[TheValleyRaider]

Quinnipiac was selected to join ECAC hockey in place of HC because they did not commit to 2 basic conference requests:

1) Improve current ice hockey facility
2) Add scholarships for Women's Ice Hockey

From the scuttlebut at the time, the ECAC wanted HC more than QU, but they were unwilling or uable to invest in these 2 areas. They were left out of the ECAC because of it.

It wasn't adding scholarships, we wanted their women's program to go D-I. If they had wanted to add the scholly $$$ later, that would be their choice, but the ECAC just wanted a 12th women's team


IMO - HC was a day late and a dollar short. For the sake of the PL, you should hope that's not the same strategy they take in football.

So very true, on both accounts xreadx