Big Ten looking to expand

[DSUrocks07]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=4745381

The quick and obvious choice would be Notre Dame. (Location, rivalries, etc.)

However...should the Big Ten raid one of the surrounding conferences, (Big East, Big 12, MAC, CUSA) the snowball effect could have wide ranging implications, including down at the FCS level.

[EPJr]

Mizzou is the frontrunner which will start a domino effect..and the Pac 10 has made is know quite a while ago that when the Big Ten goes to 12 so will they.

[Shellin]

The biggest question to be addressed about this...if the Big Ten picks up a twelfth member, do they still call themselves the Big Ten?

[93henfan]

The biggest question to be addressed about this...if the Big Ten picks up a twelfth member, do they still call themselves the Big Ten?

The Dirty Dozen has a better ring to it. xnodx

[T-Dog]

Mizzou is the frontrunner which will start a domino effect..and the Pac 10 has made is know quite a while ago that when the Big Ten goes to 12 so will they.

Who would the Pac 10 go after? Nevada? Boise St? Utah? Hawaii?

[GeauxLions94]

Who would the Pac 10 go after? Nevada? Boise St? Utah? Hawaii?

Best guess - Boise, Utah, possible BYU (throwing that one out there)

[GeauxLions94]

Mizzou is the frontrunner which will start a domino effect..and the Pac 10 has made is know quite a while ago that when the Big Ten goes to 12 so will they.

If Mizzou leaves the Big 12 (why do that???), who replaces them. Possible Arkansas?

[gbhmt]

If Mizzou leaves the Big 12 (why do that???), who replaces them. Possible Arkansas?

TCU!

[FargoBison]

Best guess - Boise, Utah, possible BYU (throwing that one out there)

Boise would probably go to the MWC, they don't have the academics to be in the PAC-10. I definitely think Utah would be in the mix and maybe Colorado as well.

[EPJr]

If Mizzou leaves the Big 12 (why do that???), who replaces them. Possible Arkansas?

a. they feel like a stepchild
b. they have an intense rivalry with Illinois
c. they belong to the AAU - this is not just about sports

http://www.aau.edu/about/article.aspx?id=5476

Brandeis University (1985)
Brown University (1933)
California Institute of Technology (1934)
Carnegie Mellon University (1982)
Case Western Reserve University (1969)
Columbia University (1900)
Cornell University (1900)
Duke University (1938)
Emory University (1995)
Harvard University (1900)
Indiana University (1909)
Iowa State University (1958)
The Johns Hopkins University (1900)
Massachusetts Institute of Technology (1934)
McGill University (1926)
Michigan State University (1964)
New York University (1950)
Northwestern University (1917)
The Ohio State University (1916)
The Pennsylvania State University (1958)
Princeton University (1900)
Purdue University (1958)
Rice University (1985)
Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey (1989)
Stanford University (1900)
Stony Brook University-State University of New York (2001)
Syracuse University (1966)
Texas A&M University (2001)
Tulane University (1958)
The University of Arizona (1985)
University at Buffalo, The State University of New York (1989)
University of California, Berkeley (1900)
University of California, Davis (1996)
University of California, Irvine (1996)
University of California, Los Angeles (1974)
University of California, San Diego (1982)
University of California, Santa Barbara (1995)
The University of Chicago (1900)
University of Colorado at Boulder (1966)
University of Florida (1985)
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (1908)
The University of Iowa (1909)
The University of Kansas (1909)
University of Maryland, College Park (1969)
University of Michigan (1900)
University of Minnesota, Twin Cities (1908)
University of Missouri-Columbia (1908)
University of Nebraska-Lincoln (1909)
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (1922)
University of Oregon (1969)
University of Pennsylvania (1900)
University of Pittsburgh (1974)
University of Rochester (1941)
University of Southern California (1969)
The University of Texas at Austin (1929)
University of Toronto (1926)
University of Virginia (1904)
University of Washington (1950)
The University of Wisconsin-Madison (1900)
Vanderbilt University (1950)
Washington University in St. Louis (1923)
Yale University (1900)

[Franks Tanks]

Who would the Pac 10 go after? Nevada? Boise St? Utah? Hawaii?

Utah and BYU. The PAC-10 is paired off like no other conference

Wash- Wash State
Oregon- Oregon State
Az- Az State
Cal- Stanford
USC- UCLA

Utah- BYU would be a natural fit

[Franks Tanks]

TCU!

Ya-- Arkansas loves the SEC and their games with LSU and Ole Miss etc.


TCU was in the SWC and would be better than some current Big 12 members (Baylor)

[Cocky]

I'm sure the Big Ten heard JSU is considering moving to FBS which has prompt the expansion study. Not sure if we will accept or not.

[MaximumBobcat]

What does AAU have to do with this? I see a decent number of Big XII and Big Ten teams on there...

[Big Al]

Basically, the AAU is comprised of schools of similar academic stature. Believe it or not, but that is important to the Big Ten.

I think it's a given that, should the Pac 10 expand, Utah would be asked to join. BYU or Colorado would be the other school to join. There are some who think that the Pac 10 would never, ever ask BYU to join (for a myriad of reasons, not least of which is academic stature). When the Pac 8 expanded in the late 70s, BYU & Utah both campaigned pretty hard to be invited only to have their advances spurned for Arizona and ASU. Utah will not be denied again.

[Shellin]

Even if the Big Ten does expand and creates a conference title game, I really don't see the Pac-10 following suit. The biggest reason for having these title games is to generate additional revenue for the conference and with how geographically dispersed the Pac-10 is I can't imagine a title game being financially successful. I would guess the game would be played in Los Angeles and would draw well for some match ups (like USC vs Washington/Oregon if they did a north/south set up) but other than that the attendance would be pretty poor, especially if they got a WSU vs Arizona match up or something.

Also, the Pac-10 hasn't had any changes in membership since the Arizona schools joined in 1978 and the main reason for that is the high level of focus that the conference places on academics. The Pac-10 presidents (and they make the call) will only admit a university with a "very high" level of research activity as determined by the Carnegie Endowment for the Advancement of Teaching. The teams out west that meet that distinction and currently play FBS football (and aren't currently in the Pac-10) are: Utah, Colorado, Colorado State, New Mexico and Hawaii. Hawaii would likely be out due to travel costs and as a previous poster mentioned the Pac-10 has always liked having geographical partners. It doesn't make a huge difference for football but it really, really cuts down on travel costs in most other sports since when UW and WSU travel down to play a basketball game against UCLA they will play USC on the same trip. Utah/BYU and Nevada-Reno/UNLV have been tossed around a little bit as they best fit in terms of geography and having a travel partner, but only Utah meets the academic standard.

Obviously the Pac-10 would have the new members be full fledged members and not football only, which would cause scheduling problems for quite a few other sports, but most notably men's and women's basketball (as I talked about above with the traveling partners.) The Pac-10 currently has a complete double round-robin schedule for basketball with Thursday/Saturday games for men and Friday/Sunday games for women.

So yeah, unless the Pac-10 decides to lower their standards to admit a school like BYU (which I don't see happening) I think we'll stick to ten teams out here.

[chrisattsu]

Even if the Big Ten does expand and creates a conference title game, I really don't see the Pac-10 following suit. The biggest reason for having these title games is to generate additional revenue for the conference and with how geographically dispersed the Pac-10 is I can't imagine a title game being financially successful. I would guess the game would be played in Los Angeles and would draw well for some match ups (like USC vs Washington/Oregon if they did a north/south set up) but other than that the attendance would be pretty poor, especially if they got a WSU vs Arizona match up or something.

Also, the Pac-10 hasn't had any changes in membership since the Arizona schools joined in 1978 and the main reason for that is the high level of focus that the conference places on academics. The Pac-10 presidents (and they make the call) will only admit a university with a "very high" level of research activity as determined by the Carnegie Endowment for the Advancement of Teaching. The teams out west that meet that distinction and currently play FBS football (and aren't currently in the Pac-10) are: Utah, Colorado, Colorado State, New Mexico and Hawaii. Hawaii would likely be out due to travel costs and as a previous poster mentioned the Pac-10 has always liked having geographical partners. It doesn't make a huge difference for football but it really, really cuts down on travel costs in most other sports since when UW and WSU travel down to play a basketball game against UCLA they will play USC on the same trip. Utah/BYU and Nevada-Reno/UNLV have been tossed around a little bit as they best fit in terms of geography and having a travel partner, but only Utah meets the academic standard.

Obviously the Pac-10 would have the new members be full fledged members and not football only, which would cause scheduling problems for quite a few other sports, but most notably men's and women's basketball (as I talked about above with the traveling partners.) The Pac-10 currently has a complete double round-robin schedule for basketball with Thursday/Saturday games for men and Friday/Sunday games for women.

So yeah, unless the Pac-10 decides to lower their standards to admit a school like BYU (which I don't see happening) I think we'll stick to ten teams out here.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that BYU does not play on Sundays. This means everyone in the conference would have to adjust their schedules when they played BYU.

[Big Al]

So yeah, unless the Pac-10 decides to lower their standards to admit a school like BYU (which I don't see happening) I think we'll stick to ten teams out here.

The FBS landscape is moving towards 12 member conferences -- I think this is inevitable.

While you're right, the Pac 10 wouldn't have a good location for a FB championship game, they could simply choose to play it at the home stadium of the team with the best record (or alternate between division champ stadiums) and then simply split the revenue. That would be a mighty lucrative game, especially if it weren't at a neutral site.

I think either Colorado or Colorado State would make decent (although certainly not perfect) travel mates for Utah. They're only 8 hours apart by car and UW and WSU are around 6 hours apart, so there is certainly a precedent for this sort of pairing.

Edit: Of course, the Pac 10 could drop another nuclear bomb on the state of Utah and skip them entirely and bring in Colorado & Colorado State. Man, that would really piss some Utahns off.

[Shellin]

All definite possibilities. I hadn't really considered the home site for a Pac-10 championship game and I could see that working fairly well, at least as far as $$ is concerned. As it is, I agree with you, if the Pac-10 does decide to expand I can't see them passing up on Utah, especially if we can land CU or CSU as well. I'm sure traveling between SLC and Boulder/Ft. Collins is better than going from Seattle to Pullman (especially for basketball teams during the winter, we've already had one basketball game delayed for an hour or so this season because Mississippi Valley State's bus ran into some serious snow trying to make it down to Pullman from Spokane).

[furpal87]

I think the Pac-10 has wanted BYU for a while, so Utah would be the natural partner. How about Vegas or San Diego for a spot to play a championship game.

For the Big 10, I've heard Missouri mentioned, but they would want to keep the Kansas game. Imagine the places you could play a Big 10 championship game: St. Louis, Soldier Field, Indy's new dome, Ford Field. I think the Big 10 is tired of begging ND to come over.

[MaximumBobcat]

I think the Pac-10 has wanted BYU for a while, so Utah would be the natural partner. How about Vegas or San Diego for a spot to play a championship game.

For the Big 10, I've heard Missouri mentioned, but they would want to keep the Kansas game. Imagine the places you could play a Big 10 championship game: St. Louis, Soldier Field, Indy's new dome, Ford Field. I think the Big 10 is tired of begging ND to come over.

Vegas would kill for the Pac-10 championship game. Any good stadiums there? I know NCAA championships aren't allowed to be played there, but I don't think there is any rule against conference championships.

[Big Al]

I think the Pac-10 has wanted BYU for a while, so Utah would be the natural partner. How about Vegas or San Diego for a spot to play a championship game.

For the Big 10, I've heard Missouri mentioned, but they would want to keep the Kansas game. Imagine the places you could play a Big 10 championship game: St. Louis, Soldier Field, Indy's new dome, Ford Field. I think the Big 10 is tired of begging ND to come over.

The Pac 10 wants BYU like a case of the clap. If they ever get into the conference, it's because they bought their way in.

Yeah, I know lots of people are hot on Missouri but I don't see that happening. The Big 12 North has been good to them, so I really don't think they have motivation to switch. Plus, adding Missouri doesn't really bring big TV markets, which the Big Ten covets. Pitt, Rutgers or Syracuse, on the other hand...

Of course, whoever the Big Ten adds, it will be the consolation prize because they really, really want Notre Dame. ND, of course, will never go to the Big Ten if for no other reason than as a big Eff You for the decades they were snubbed by the Big Ten.

[EPJr]

I think the Pac-10 has wanted BYU for a while, so Utah would be the natural partner. How about Vegas or San Diego for a spot to play a championship game.

For the Big 10, I've heard Missouri mentioned, but they would want to keep the Kansas game. Imagine the places you could play a Big 10 championship game: St. Louis, Soldier Field, Indy's new dome, Ford Field. I think the Big 10 is tired of begging ND to come over.

Missouri can still play Kansas and/or KSU, other rivalries don't depend on conference affiliation

USC - Clemson
FSU - Florida
UGA - GT
Penn State - Pitt

[MR. CHICKEN]

The biggest question to be addressed about this...if the Big Ten picks up a twelfth member, do they still call themselves the Big Ten?

WHAA??...NEVERAH CHANGED TA DUH..BIG ELEVEN........xcoffeex.......AWK!

[89Hen]

the snowball effect could have wide ranging implications, including down at the FCS level.
I'm not so sure about that. If the Big10 takes ND there won't be any changes to eastern football. If they take Missouri, the BXII picks up a TCU, Colorado State, Houston, etc... C-USA or MWC picks up a Sun Belt.

The only thing this would do is open up a spot in the Sun Belt. xsmhx

As for the Pac10 speculation... it's just that. There has been nothing keeping them from picking up 2 more teams. I don't see the B10 going to 12 as a driving force for the Pac10.

[Pard4Life]

Big Ten expansion could set the dominoes in motion for a major realignemt of BCS with some teams moving to or from FCS. There could be seven BCS conferences and a major dividing line between the best and also-rans (um, MAC, Sun Belt). Check out this writer's perspective:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/308523-big-ten-expansion-will-hit-college-football-like-a-tidal-wave

I can't believe the fact that 35 years ago, one of these targeted teams was a peer of Lafayette, Colgate, Columbia, and Princeton (in football at least).

[chrisattsu]

I think the Pac-10 has wanted BYU for a while, so Utah would be the natural partner. How about Vegas or San Diego for a spot to play a championship game.

For the Big 10, I've heard Missouri mentioned, but they would want to keep the Kansas game. Imagine the places you could play a Big 10 championship game: St. Louis, Soldier Field, Indy's new dome, Ford Field. I think the Big 10 is tired of begging ND to come over.

Vegas was my first thought. Cheap Flights, Entertainment, plenty of room for visiting fans. Sam Boyd is home to the Vegas Bowl (40,000 cap.)

Or maybe San Fran/Oakland. It is 800 miles from San Fran to Seattle, 900 to Pullman, 850 to Tucson, and 750 to Phoenix. Does it give an advantage to UC or Stanford? Sure, but how often are they going to be in the final game.

[Pard4Life]

Big Ten expansion could set the dominoes in motion for a major realignemt with some teams moving to or from FCS. There could be seven BCS conferences and a major dividing line between the best and also-rans (um, MAC, Sun Belt). Check out this writer's perspective:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3...e-a-tidal-wave

I can't believe the fact that 35 years ago, one of these targeted teams was a peer of Lafayette, Colgate, Columbia, and Princeton (in football at least).

[chrisattsu]

I'm not so sure about that. If the Big10 takes ND there won't be any changes to eastern football. If they take Missouri, the BXII picks up a TCU, Colorado State, Houston, etc... C-USA or MWC picks up a Sun Belt.

The only thing this would do is open up a spot in the Sun Belt. xsmhx

As for the Pac10 speculation... it's just that. There has been nothing keeping them from picking up 2 more teams. I don't see the B10 going to 12 as a driving force for the Pac10.

That has implications for FCS. Considering several FCS schools (including Texas State, UTSA, Georgia State, and Jax State) are jumping on the 'Move-Up' bandwagon. If CUSA-East gets raided, then it will need to reload with SBC schools. Causing the SBC to reload with any number of these schools.


Then again, a Pac-10 shift takes Utah/BYU. MWC reloads with Boise/Fresno/UH
CUSA takes LaTech. WAC reloads with Griz, Poly, Davis.

Texas State is looking at our position. We sit inside the footprint of four conferences. Big XII (not gonna happen), CUSA (extremely unlikely), WAC (could use a Texas team for recruiting, media, and a bridge between LaTech and NMState), and Sun Belt (travel partner for North Texas, new media markets, another 'western' team for the Ark & LA schools).

[Seahawks Fan]

I think Rutgers makes the most sense for Big 10 expansion. Large state university in the New York City TV market. The Scarlet Knights are a bit tired of these second rate bowls associated with the Big East.

[89Hen]

That has implications for FCS.
I was thinking only good implications. If the Sun Belt wanted, they already have room for three more, so one team leaving really doesn't change much. xpeacex

[89Hen]

The Scarlet Knights are a bit tired of these second rate bowls associated with the Big East.
xeyebrowx They are a second rate team. xwhistlex

[DSUrocks07]

I'm not so sure about that. If the Big10 takes ND there won't be any changes to eastern football. If they take Missouri, the BXII picks up a TCU, Colorado State, Houston, etc... C-USA or MWC picks up a Sun Belt.

The only thing this would do is open up a spot in the Sun Belt. xsmhx

As for the Pac10 speculation... it's just that. There has been nothing keeping them from picking up 2 more teams. I don't see the B10 going to 12 as a driving force for the Pac10.

Well we could have the leftovers of the WAC go independent...or dropping back down to the FCS level xwhistlex

[Seahawks Fan]

xeyebrowx They are a second rate team. xwhistlex

But second rate teams from the Big Ten get to play in big time Bowl games. xeyebrowx

[Big Al]

I'm not so sure about that. If the Big10 takes ND there won't be any changes to eastern football. If they take Missouri, the BXII picks up a TCU, Colorado State, Houston, etc... C-USA or MWC picks up a Sun Belt.

The only thing this would do is open up a spot in the Sun Belt. xsmhx

As for the Pac10 speculation... it's just that. There has been nothing keeping them from picking up 2 more teams. I don't see the B10 going to 12 as a driving force for the Pac10.

If the Big 10 picks up a member, then the Pac-10 will pick up two. I think if the Big 10 steals a team from the Big East (which I see as likely), the Big East would simply steal a team from the MAC. The Mac currently has 13 fb members, so they wouldn't be under any pressure to realign. Pac-10 changes would likely be more far-reaching. If they steal Utah & Colorado, TCU would go to the Big 12 and the MWC would likely add a team from the WAC (Boise State). If the Pac-10 steals BYU & Utah (unlikely), the MWC would steal two teams from the WAC. If the Pac-10 steals Colorado & Colorado State, then I could see TCU going to the Big 12 and the MWC conference going ape**** as it tries to steal two teams from the WAC (Boise State & Nevada?). That last option would be nuclear disaster for the MWC.

[Big Al]

Big Ten expansion could set the dominoes in motion for a major realignemt of BCS with some teams moving to or from FCS. There could be seven BCS conferences and a major dividing line between the best and also-rans (um, MAC, Sun Belt). Check out this writer's perspective:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/308523-big-ten-expansion-will-hit-college-football-like-a-tidal-wave

I can't believe the fact that 35 years ago, one of these targeted teams was a peer of Lafayette, Colgate, Columbia, and Princeton (in football at least).

Hmmm. I'd never considered BYU to the Big 12, but the article does leave me thinking.

That said, I think it's extremely unlikely that Missouri goes to the Big Ten. I think the Big East is the only conference that is vulnerable to defection to another BCS conference.

[aust42]

Big Ten expansion could set the dominoes in motion for a major realignemt of BCS with some teams moving to or from FCS. There could be seven BCS conferences and a major dividing line between the best and also-rans (um, MAC, Sun Belt). Check out this writer's perspective:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/308523-big-ten-expansion-will-hit-college-football-like-a-tidal-wave

I can't believe the fact that 35 years ago, one of these targeted teams was a peer of Lafayette, Colgate, Columbia, and Princeton (in football at least).

Nobody is moving from 1A to 1AA. This guy is insane if he thinks that the Big East would ever offer membership to Temple which they kicked out a few years ago. Interesting speculation on his part though on other conferences expanding.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

My take...

Big Ten Expansion - Could a Plan Already Be in Place? (http://news.collegesportsinfo.com/2009/12/big-ten-expansion-could-plan-already-be.html)

1) The Big Ten likely has a plan already which could include collectively knowing who they want

2) By issuing a time-line of 12-18 months, the Big Ten is protecting itself from potential lawsuits from the Big East (or other conferences)

3) The Big Ten is giving the Big East ample time to get it's act together and ensure they have time to expand on their own or setup a plan and not fall to 7 teams should the 8th team leave for the Big Ten.

And a twist on Notre Dame...

[Franks Tanks]

Nobody is moving from 1A to 1AA. This guy is insane if he thinks that the Big East would ever offer membership to Temple which they kicked out a few years ago. Interesting speculation on his part though on other conferences expanding.

Bleacher report is a blog-- anyone can post an article.

[89Hen]

If the Big 10 picks up a member, then the Pac-10 will pick up two...
You agree it's trickle down though. The only open spots for I-AA teams will be SunBelt, WAC or MAC... It's not like Mizzou filling the B10 means McNeese is going BXII.

[89Hen]

But second rate teams from the Big Ten get to play in big time Bowl games. xeyebrowx
What I was trying to say was the B10 won't want Rutgers, not that Rutgers wouldn't want the B10. xpeacex

[Franks Tanks]

What I was trying to say was the B10 won't want Rutgers, not that Rutgers wouldn't want the B10. xpeacex

Why wouldnt the Big 10 want Rutgers.

Their football program is at least as good as 1/2 the Big 10 right now. Rutgers mens baskatball has struggled, but the Womens team is a national power.

[Seahawks Fan]

What I was trying to say was the B10 won't want Rutgers, not that Rutgers wouldn't want the B10. xpeacex

Why wouldn't they? First rate academic institution, NY market, football team that has begun a winning tradition. I think they would be a fine addition.

[darell1976]

I'm sure LakesBison is on the phone with the Big 10 commish right now to nominate NDSU to be the 12th team.xlolx

[89Hen]

Why wouldn't they? First rate academic institution, NY market, football team that has begun a winning tradition. I think they would be a fine addition.
Let's not get carried away. Rutgers is fine, but it's middle of the road as far as the Big10 schools academically and not exactly a big tradition in football. They don't add much cache to the B10. xpeacex

[Big Al]

You agree it's trickle down though. The only open spots for I-AA teams will be SunBelt, WAC or MAC... It's not like Mizzou filling the B10 means McNeese is going BXII.

Absolutely. If anything, it will solidify the position of the Big 6 and _possibly_ the Mountain West as the "top tier" conferences. The only advantage the MAC, WAC, C-USA and Sun Belt will have when it's all said and done over FCS is they can command more $$$ for their bodybag OOC games. This will ultimately put the brakes on any team moving from FCS to FBS.

[Big Al]

Why wouldnt the Big 10 want Rutgers.

Their football program is at least as good as 1/2 the Big 10 right now. Rutgers mens baskatball has struggled, but the Womens team is a national power.

Vivian Stringer used to be the coach at Iowa, and she fielded teams that would fill the Carver Hawkeye Center (15k+ capacity) on a regular basis. Iowa misses her very much.

Rutgers has had a long string of bad football teams with only recently regaining any semblance of national prominence but they can also lay claim to the first NC, way back in 1898. The Big Ten schools love that sort of historical spin.

The point remains, though, that they fit within the academic profile of the Big Ten and potentially bring in the New York market. Academic profile is the minimum bar but what the Big Ten is really looking for is someone who can bring in more TV $$$.

[Seahawks Fan]

Besides being the birthplace of college football, Rutgers has some pretty influential fans:


http://www.gametheory.net/disequilibrium/images/TonySoprano.jpg

[89Hen]

Rutgers has had a long string of bad football teams with only recently regaining any semblance of national prominence but they can also lay claim to the first NC, way back in 1898. The Big Ten schools love that sort of historical spin.
xconfusedx My sports almanac has NC's back to 1869 and none of them were Rutgers. xpeacex

[GannonFan]

Vivian Stringer used to be the coach at Iowa, and she fielded teams that would fill the Carver Hawkeye Center (15k+ capacity) on a regular basis. Iowa misses her very much.

Rutgers has had a long string of bad football teams with only recently regaining any semblance of national prominence but they can also lay claim to the first NC, way back in 1898. The Big Ten schools love that sort of historical spin.

The point remains, though, that they fit within the academic profile of the Big Ten and potentially bring in the New York market. Academic profile is the minimum bar but what the Big Ten is really looking for is someone who can bring in more TV $$$.

That's the thing though, what makes anyone think that Rutgers is going to capture the New York market? They obviously can't do that in Men's Basketball, as the Big East dominates that (UConn, Syracuse, St. John's, heck, even Seton Hall) and in football New York is more of a national market - they're not going to all of a sudden go ga-ga over Rutgers simply because of conference affiliation.

I know Joe Pa would love to see another Eastern team, but I think the likes of Missouri or Nebraska would be better Big 10 fits than a Rutgers would be.

With that said, though, I don't think the Big 10 even expands - what they could do is just stretch out their season so that they have games that happen later in the season. Granted it wouldn't be able to be as late as a conference title game, but they could play those games at least after Thanksgiving to extend the season.

[Cocky]

Besides being the birthplace of college football, Rutgers has some pretty influential fans:


http://www.gametheory.net/disequilibrium/images/TonySoprano.jpg

Who is this?

[Cocky]

The SunBelt already has one opening with the moving down of UNO.

[93henfan]

Who is this?

You never watched Sopranos? In real life, his name is James Gandolfini. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001254/

[UMass922]

They don't add much cache to the B10.

Do they need to? I don't know that the Big Ten is looking to add, or needs to add, "cache"; I think it's simply looking to add a twelfth team and a championship game. Rutgers fits the academic profile and brings in a new market, so it's as good a choice as any other school would be.

[Seawolf97]

I suspect if the Big 10 expands it will set it sights on Notre Dame and maybe Pitt or Missouri. All 3 have solid football and basketball programs and a Missouri-Illinois rivalry could exist. Notre Dame also brings with it its New York fanbase which is quite large . Rutgers is good but not ready for a move and their fanbase is alot smalle than ND's in the New York area. Lets see how this plays out.

[UMass922]

That's the thing though, what makes anyone think that Rutgers is going to capture the New York market? They obviously can't do that in Men's Basketball, as the Big East dominates that (UConn, Syracuse, St. John's, heck, even Seton Hall) and in football New York is more of a national market - they're not going to all of a sudden go ga-ga over Rutgers simply because of conference affiliation.

Rutgers doesn't need to "capture" the New York market. I think it's well understood that college football is not a high priority there, and while Rutgers being in the Big Ten wouldn't necessarily change that, it certainly can't hurt the Big Ten to have that market in its footprint.

[Shellin]

http://espn.go.com/blog/pac10/post/_/id/6381/pac-10-will-consider-expansion

Ted Miller (the Pac-10 Blogger for ESPN) just posted this with regards to the likelihood of the Pac-10 following suit if the Big Ten does expand. Really no new information from anything that has already been posted in this thread but its still a decent read.

[GannonFan]

Rutgers doesn't need to "capture" the New York market. I think it's well understood that college football is not a high priority there, and while Rutgers being in the Big Ten wouldn't necessarily change that, it certainly can't hurt the Big Ten to have that market in its footprint.

But what would having Rutgers give the Big Ten in that market that Penn St doesn't already give them? Penn St arguably has the same or even bigger footprint in that area, especially considering the NE part of PA that is more NY than anything else. And it's not like the Big Ten really needs a "footprint" per se - they're clearly a national brand and they can get kids from anywhere even without a presence directly in that area.

[UMass922]

But what would having Rutgers give the Big Ten in that market that Penn St doesn't already give them? Penn St arguably has the same or even bigger footprint in that area, especially considering the NE part of PA that is more NY than anything else. And it's not like the Big Ten really needs a "footprint" per se - they're clearly a national brand and they can get kids from anywhere even without a presence directly in that area.

What Rutgers gives the Big Ten is a twelfth team, plain and simple. And short of Notre Dame getting on board, Rutgers is as good a choice as any. I agree, New York as a college football market isn't necessarily anything special, but again, it can't hurt, and it's no reason not to add Rutgers when it otherwise fits the Big Ten profile as well as any other available school does.

[MplsBison]

Academically, there are a few good options that would add nicely to the CIC:

Iowa State
Missouri
Nebraska
Pitt
Rutgers
Buffalo

Of those, I think Buffalo is the only one that for certain would not be considered.


In addition to that, both Notre Dame and Syracuse have to be on the table due to tradition, athletic strength and potential market reasons.


I think everyone knows that the BT would love to get Notre Dame.

After that, I think Pitt or Rutgers have the strongest chance. Pitt has better facilities and men's bball, Rutgers has better market and women's bball.

[Torgo]

Pitt and Penn State need to be together...but I doubt Pitt, which has somehow re-branded itself as a basketball school after decades of complete and utter indifference to the sport, will be too willing to go from the best basketball conference to an average basketball conference. It would definitely revive the football program though.


Notre Dame refuses to go into a conference for football and is in the best basketball conference as it is, there is no monetary reason for them to change their self-important ways.


Syracuse is a basketball school, they're not ditching the Big East.




I am hoping they can get someone closer east in the conference than west just because Penn State is like the bastard step-child in that conference right now. Shoulda gone with the Big East, JoePa.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Pitt and Penn State need to be together...but I doubt Pitt, which has somehow re-branded itself as a basketball school after decades of complete and utter indifference to the sport, will be too willing to go from the best basketball conference to an average basketball conference. It would definitely revive the football program though.


Notre Dame refuses to go into a conference for football and is in the best basketball conference as it is, there is no monetary reason for them to change their self-important ways.


Syracuse is a basketball school, they're not ditching the Big East.




I am hoping they can get someone closer east in the conference than west just because Penn State is like the bastard step-child in that conference right now. Shoulda gone with the Big East, JoePa.


Could not disagree more. Pitt is an urban school in the existing Penn St. market. In fact, you'll find that Penn St. has more cache and fanbase in Pittsburgh than Pitt does.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

My various scenarios...

Big Ten Expansion - Future Conference Realignment Dominoes (http://news.collegesportsinfo.com/2009/12/big-ten-expansion-future-conference.html)



Included:
Scenario 1: Big Ten adds a Big East school, Big East a CUSA school...
Scenario 2: Big Ten adds Big East school, Big East adds a football-only member
Scenario 3: Big Ten adds Big 12 school, Big 12 adds a Mountian West school
Scenario 4: Big Ten adds Big 12 school, Big 12 adds a CUSA school
Scenario 5: Big Ten adds Notre Dame, Big East nothing
Scenario 6: Big Ten adds Notre Dame, Big East adds an all-sports member
Scenario 7: Big Ten adds Notre Dame, Big East adds a basketball-only member

[89Hen]

My various scenarios...

Scenario 2: Big Ten adds Big East school, Big East adds a football-only member

Do you think they'd really do that after kicking Temple out a few years ago? I know that was done when Miami, BC and VT were still in the BE, but still. xeyebrowx

FWIW, the BE is a CF IMO. xsmiley_wix Three teams that play football, but not in the BE, five teams that are I-AAA, and oddball South Florida that is further away from any one BE member than any other two are from each other. IMO they really need to rethink that whole thing.

[bkrownd]

I think it's a given that, should the Pac 10 expand, Utah would be asked to join. BYU or Colorado would be the other school to join.

Colorado is tainted, and now a cellar dweller

[bkrownd]

I know Joe Pa would love to see another Eastern team, but I think the likes of Missouri or Nebraska would be better Big 10 fits than a Rutgers would be.

Nebraska would NEVER join the Big 10+1. 99.9% of NU fans don't want any part of that conference.

[Big Al]

Colorado is tainted, and now a cellar dweller

Maybe so, but it's on record that at least one Pac 10 AD has mentioned them as a candidate. Colorado State meets the academic minimums, as well, so they could go instead of Colorado. I think Utah is good enough, however, to forgive some sins for their travel partner.

[bkrownd]

Some people in the Big 12 would welcome an exchange of Colorado State (or Utah) for Colorado. xsmiley_wix

[Cocky]

You never watched Sopranos? In real life, his name is James Gandolfini. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001254/

I've never seen it. Is it a tv show or a movie?

[furpal87]

Did you hear ESPN radio this morning on a new name for the bIg 10? The Big Snowdrift, and The Pac-10 beats us all the time were my favorites.

[Torgo]

Could not disagree more. Pitt is an urban school in the existing Penn St. market. In fact, you'll find that Penn St. has more cache and fanbase in Pittsburgh than Pitt does.

I'm from Pittsburgh and still claim residency there, Pitt & Penn State are very much tied in fan interest there, though Pitt's troubles of late have given a slight swing to Penn State. The media coverage is split right down the middle in football (though the Post-Gazette is far more likely to have Pitt taking top story than Penn State, the amount of articles is pretty much the same) and heavily Pitt-sided in every other sport (Penn State & West Virginia are in the same boat with non-football coverage, a somewhat distant tie for second).


Its still a rivalry, though one that has faded considerably because of Paterno's refusal to schedule Pitt. The short revival of the rivalry in the 90s was huge, and an upswing in Pitt football followed with the renewed interest...other factors play huge in this, but Pitt was a struggling football program in the early days of the Big East before becoming respectable around the same time as the rivalry re-started. Since the rivalry died off and the Big East has lost some of its luster the team still wins more often than not, but isn't nearly as popular as it was a decade ago. That said, there is definitely an arms race between the two schools in recruiting local talent, one that Pitt usually wins.

The perception of the Big East is definitely hurting Pitt with fan interest though. Attendance is slipping at Pitt games lately since there just aren't the 'event' games that used to dot the schedule so frequently before (their OoC schedule isn't helping fan interest either...aside from Notre Dame its dominated by MAC schools and mediocre FCS programs every year). Everyone gets into the Backyard Brawl (West Virginia), but there are no more Miami and Virginia Tech showdowns for the Conference crown anymore...and fans are just finding it hard to keep any sort of rivalry going with the Big East morphing so much. In the Big Ten games against Penn State, Ohio State, and Michigan would instantly be 'events' and there's no reason to think Pitt wouldn't keep the Backyard Brawl going, albeit as an Out of Conference game.


Pitt is definitely big enough to compete in a 'Penn State market' and hold their own. This program was a powerhouse in NCAA football as recently as the 80s (and had a period of success in the earlier part of this decade) and claims 9 National Titles (most early on, but the history is most definitely there).


I say this as a Penn State-backing Pittsburgh native, for what its worth. I want Pitt to be a major player again though, and I think a move to the Big Ten would give them a real kick.

[89Hen]

What Rutgers gives the Big Ten is a twelfth team, plain and simple. And short of Notre Dame getting on board, Rutgers is as good a choice as any.
Not sure I agree. Missouri is a better choice. ND is a better choice.

[DSUrocks07]

Not sure I agree. Missouri is a better choice. ND is a better choice.

xnodx

Missouri should definitely be in the Big Ten

[MplsBison]

Could not disagree more. Pitt is an urban school in the existing Penn St. market. In fact, you'll find that Penn St. has more cache and fanbase in Pittsburgh than Pitt does.

Northwestern seems to do OK in Illinois' market. xrolleyesx

[MplsBison]

Nebraska would NEVER join the Big 10+1. 99.9% of NU fans don't want any part of that conference.

Honestly, I would think the same of Mizzou fans. StL and most of the middle and esp. southern part of the state consider themselves "southerners".

The Big Ten is a northern conference. Bit of a culture clash.


Really, Mizzou's only tie to the Big Ten is the rivalry with Illinois.

[MplsBison]

Not sure I agree. Missouri is a better choice. ND is a better choice.

Disagree.

Rutgers has better market potential and comparable academics. Both are AAU.

[MplsBison]

I'm from Pittsburgh and still claim residency there, Pitt & Penn State are very much tied in fan interest there, though Pitt's troubles of late have given a slight swing to Penn State. The media coverage is split right down the middle in football (though the Post-Gazette is far more likely to have Pitt taking top story than Penn State, the amount of articles is pretty much the same) and heavily Pitt-sided in every other sport (Penn State & West Virginia are in the same boat with non-football coverage, a somewhat distant tie for second).


Its still a rivalry, though one that has faded considerably because of Paterno's refusal to schedule Pitt. The short revival of the rivalry in the 90s was huge, and an upswing in Pitt football followed with the renewed interest...other factors play huge in this, but Pitt was a struggling football program in the early days of the Big East before becoming respectable around the same time as the rivalry re-started. Since the rivalry died off and the Big East has lost some of its luster the team still wins more often than not, but isn't nearly as popular as it was a decade ago. That said, there is definitely an arms race between the two schools in recruiting local talent, one that Pitt usually wins.

The perception of the Big East is definitely hurting Pitt with fan interest though. Attendance is slipping at Pitt games lately since there just aren't the 'event' games that used to dot the schedule so frequently before (their OoC schedule isn't helping fan interest either...aside from Notre Dame its dominated by MAC schools and mediocre FCS programs every year). Everyone gets into the Backyard Brawl (West Virginia), but there are no more Miami and Virginia Tech showdowns for the Conference crown anymore...and fans are just finding it hard to keep any sort of rivalry going with the Big East morphing so much. In the Big Ten games against Penn State, Ohio State, and Michigan would instantly be 'events' and there's no reason to think Pitt wouldn't keep the Backyard Brawl going, albeit as an Out of Conference game.


Pitt is definitely big enough to compete in a 'Penn State market' and hold their own. This program was a powerhouse in NCAA football as recently as the 80s (and had a period of success in the earlier part of this decade) and claims 9 National Titles (most early on, but the history is most definitely there).


I say this as a Penn State-backing Pittsburgh native, for what its worth. I want Pitt to be a major player again though, and I think a move to the Big Ten would give them a real kick.


Yeah I don't buy such an over-simplified argument that "Penn State brings the entire state of PA". No...it's never that simple. Especially for such a large, east/west polarized, diverse state as PA. Both Pittsburgh and Philly markets have room for a big time, city-based team in addition to Penn State.


Additionally, Pitt is very close to Penn State on the academic/research side and has by far the top academics of any of the schools being considered. That WILL weigh in on the presidents' decision.

[WestCoastAggie]

All definite possibilities. I hadn't really considered the home site for a Pac-10 championship game and I could see that working fairly well, at least as far as $$ is concerned. As it is, I agree with you, if the Pac-10 does decide to expand I can't see them passing up on Utah, especially if we can land CU or CSU as well. I'm sure traveling between SLC and Boulder/Ft. Collins is better than going from Seattle to Pullman (especially for basketball teams during the winter, we've already had one basketball game delayed for an hour or so this season because Mississippi Valley State's bus ran into some serious snow trying to make it down to Pullman from Spokane).

Pac-10 Champ. in U of Phoenix Stadium???

[WestCoastAggie]

I suspect if the Big 10 expands it will set it sights on Notre Dame and maybe Pitt or Missouri. All 3 have solid football and basketball programs and a Missouri-Illinois rivalry could exist. Notre Dame also brings with it its New York fanbase which is quite large . Rutgers is good but not ready for a move and their fanbase is alot smalle than ND's in the New York area. Lets see how this plays out.

Mizzou/Illinois Rivalries exist and they are intense. They Played a Neutral site game in St. Louis this season and packed the place out like they did in Kansas City when Mizzou played Kansas in their border war.

[WestCoastAggie]

Do you think they'd really do that after kicking Temple out a few years ago? I know that was done when Miami, BC and VT were still in the BE, but still. xeyebrowx

FWIW, the BE is a CF IMO. xsmiley_wix Three teams that play football, but not in the BE, five teams that are I-AAA, and oddball South Florida that is further away from any one BE member than any other two are from each other. IMO they really need to rethink that whole thing.

Miami was like that too.

[89Hen]

Disagree.

Rutgers has better market potential
In what way? Do people in NYC even know what colors Rutgers is?

[Torgo]

Disagree.

Rutgers has better market potential and comparable academics. Both are AAU.

But does it really?

Just because its in a huge market doesn't mean squat. I've met maybe 3 Rutgers fans in my life and before I transferred to Montana I went to a college that was almost entirely filled with kids from Jersey...and they all wore Penn State and Ohio State stuff. The New Jersey Devils are a running joke of support in the NHL (considering how good they are consistently they're almost always dead last in TV ratings). I don't know diddly squat about the NBA, but I can't imagine the Nets are exactly the most popular team in the area considering I've never seen anything Nets related whatsoever (at least I saw Devils stuff on occasion).

North Jersey tends to align with New York, South Jersey with Philadelphia. The only place this differs is in hockey where the north part 'supports' the Devils and the south is split between the Devils and Flyers.



I don't buy population = good market.

[MplsBison]

Market ********potential********

[CollegeSportsInfo]

But does it really?

Just because its in a huge market doesn't mean squat. I've met maybe 3 Rutgers fans in my life and before I transferred to Montana I went to a college that was almost entirely filled with kids from Jersey...and they all wore Penn State and Ohio State stuff. The New Jersey Devils are a running joke of support in the NHL (considering how good they are consistently they're almost always dead last in TV ratings). I don't know diddly squat about the NBA, but I can't imagine the Nets are exactly the most popular team in the area considering I've never seen anything Nets related whatsoever (at least I saw Devils stuff on occasion).

North Jersey tends to align with New York, South Jersey with Philadelphia. The only place this differs is in hockey where the north part 'supports' the Devils and the south is split between the Devils and Flyers.



I don't buy population = good market.


You are incorrect.

For example, on Nov 9th, 2006, ESPN televised the Rutgers vs Louisville game...its was a Thursday night. It got an 8.1 Neilson rating in New York city. This was the highest rated college sports event on TV ever on ESPN in the NY market.
It was also the second highest rating EVER on ESPN for a Thursday night college football game.

Doing the math: a 5.0 rating means 4.7 million people watched the broadcast.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

In what way? Do people in NYC even know what colors Rutgers is?

That's a good question since the color of the school is part of their nickname, yet people think "red" not "scarlet". It's similar to the confusion the rest of America has with the Delaware nickname "Hens', being used for men's teams when it refers to the female chicken, not the male. ;)

[CollegeSportsInfo]

i still think Syracuse is a better fit than Rutgers since they have had so much basketball success AND provide NYC market exposure. Syracuse hoops games rate well on NYC TV sets.

[gmoney55]

i still think Syracuse is a better fit than Rutgers since they have had so much basketball success AND provide NYC market exposure. Syracuse hoops games rate well on NYC TV sets.

Why would the Big 10 be a fit for Syracuse though? They are a basketball school in the best bball league in the nation and get to play for their fan base in NYC multiple times during the year. Not to mention the long-standing rivalries with GTown, UConn, Nova, etc...

[WestCoastAggie]

The Orangemen are not leaving the Big East Conference. Why would they give up that Tournament in the Basketball Mecca every year?

[JMUNJ08]

In what way? Do people in NYC even know what colors Rutgers is?

Alot of Rutgers grads stay in the area so going to games and interest has been on the rise. People do talk about them on Monday morning where I work...

I think they would be good for the Great 12 but I'm not sure that will happen as their sports are just finally coming around. Only took them 140 years for footballxcoffeex

[MplsBison]

There are a lot of people on this thread who claim to speak for a lot of people in knowing exactly which markets belong to which teams.

In the end it's going to come down to the Big Ten conference *presidents* deciding if adding another school or three is going to result in a net gain to the CIC and the Big Ten athletic conference.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Why would the Big 10 be a fit for Syracuse though? They are a basketball school in the best bball league in the nation and get to play for their fan base in NYC multiple times during the year. Not to mention the long-standing rivalries with GTown, UConn, Nova, etc...

To clarify, I said Syracuse would be the best fit...I did not say the Big Ten is the best fit for Syracuse.

But to add to that...you want a reason: $$$$

* Big Ten schools cleared over $22 million PER school (yes, even Indiana made $22 million last year)

* Notre Dame with their all-mighty NBC contract brought in $15 million.

* Big East schools have a 6 year contract with ESPN worth $200 million contract = 33 million per year = $4 million per school on average


It's not even close in potential revenue. If Syracuse were in the Big Ten, they'd make an extra $18 million per year just on the basic TV deals.

[SO ILLmatic]

Honestly, I would think the same of Mizzou fans. StL and most of the middle and esp. southern part of the state consider themselves "southerners".

The Big Ten is a northern conference. Bit of a culture clash.



Living relatively close to St. Louis I can say that I have never noticed St.Louis citizens, Metro-area included, think of themselves as "Southerners". Especially if you travel in and around one of the aforementioned schools in this thread, Washington Univ.


Mizzou would be a good fit for the other Big 12...Big 14 .... Big 16 - how ever many they go with.

[Big Al]

Which leads into an interesting part of the expansion argument that nobody has covered:

The Big Ten very well could lose money per school if they add another school. Consider: The Big Ten has gotten a 2nd school into the BCS 9 of the last 12 years, which is good for an extra $17 million a kick. Estimates on revenue from a Big Ten championship game run from $5mill (ACC avg.) to $17mill(SEC avg.). Historically, the conferences with a championship game only get one team into the BCS. So, right now the Big Ten is getting $12.75 mill a year to not hold a championship game. If they drop to only getting a team in the BCS 2 out of 4 years and only average $5mill a year on their conf. championship game, they're only gaining $3mill over four years. Plus, assuming overall league revenue remains flat or goes up less than 9% after adding a 12th team, per team revenue would go down. The school presidents will most definitely pay attention to that stat.


To clarify, I said Syracuse would be the best fit...I did not say the Big Ten is the best fit for Syracuse.

But to add to that...you want a reason: $$$$

* Big Ten schools cleared over $22 million PER school (yes, even Indiana made $22 million last year)

* Notre Dame with their all-mighty NBC contract brought in $15 million.

* Big East schools have a 6 year contract with ESPN worth $200 million contract = 33 million per year = $4 million per school on average


It's not even close in potential revenue. If Syracuse were in the Big Ten, they'd make an extra $18 million per year just on the basic TV deals.

[Torgo]

You are incorrect.

For example, on Nov 9th, 2006, ESPN televised the Rutgers vs Louisville game...its was a Thursday night. It got an 8.1 Neilson rating in New York city. This was the highest rated college sports event on TV ever on ESPN in the NY market.
It was also the second highest rating EVER on ESPN for a Thursday night college football game.

Doing the math: a 5.0 rating means 4.7 million people watched the broadcast.

Fair enough. I guess most Rutgers fans don't want the rest of the world to know they're Rutgers fans.


I think Pitt or Missouri would be the best choices for the Big Ten, however. Syracuse's football program is in the dumps right now and is only going to hurt the Big Ten's prestige for the time being. Likewise Syracuse is in the best basketball conference and is a basketball school...the market would definitely make sense from a B10 perspective, but the other aspects aren't as strong.

Rutgers, I'll give you market potential, but though their football team is on the rise I think they'd get knocked around in the Big Ten quite easily. Yeah, they won 8 games this year...but they were against Howard, FIU, Maryland, Texas Southern, Army, UConn, USF, and Lousiville...2 FCS programs, a Sun Belt team, a 2-10 ACC team, a 5-7 Army team, and 3 of the 4 teams below them in the Big East standings (somehow losing to Syracuse).


At least, from a prestige point of view, Pitt brings a school with 9 claimed National Championships (they decline to claim 2 others that have been named) and has a good number of greats to come through. Pitt definitely has a more reputable program than Rutgers. Academically things also sway in Pitt's favor, as this is a big thing to the Big Ten and Pitt is a member of the AAU, which every other member of the Big Ten is involved with as well, which Rutgers is not part of.


If the perceived market difference is enough to make up for the prestige (Pittsburgh is a big teleivision market regardless, not NYC metro big, but still quite large and with a lot less sports teams competing for viewer's attention) the academics may sway things back. It also brings Syracuse (still don't think its a good fit) and Missouri back into the equation, as both are members of the AAU as well, though Pitt generally ranks higher than either school in academic rankings (usually in the top 50 globally).





As long as Penn State is no longer on an island in the Big Ten I'll be happy, which means I'm against Missouri more than anything. Rutgers would, most certainly, be on an island...there's really no rivalry between Penn State there and they're so far away from everyone else, but I doubt the conference is going to be paying attention to stuff like that. Pitt already has a standing rivalry with Penn State and a mounted hatred of all things dealing with the state of Ohio (and the state of Ohio against Pittsburgh), so their transition would be smoother in that regard. Syracuse would have a similar problem. Missouri would fit right in with the more western Big Ten teams.


In the end I think it will come down to Missouri or Pitt. I just don't think Rutgers has a good enough overall package to entice the Big Ten unless they're a fall-back option. If Pitt decides it wants to be in a better basketball conference rather than a better football conference that brings in far more money for the school (very unlikely), Missouri decides its happy in the Big XII (I honestly can't say I know enough of the situation there to comment on the likelihood), and Syracuse decides its too perfect of a fit for the Big East too leave (possibility, money is really the only thing that could sway them...which is a good reason to jump) then Rutgers should be an option, but not until then.

Missouri & Pitt both have good football programs, great academics, large television markets, and solid all-around in other sports. Getting Pitt would instantly add prestige to the Big Ten as a basketball conference, which may play into things as well.

[MplsBison]

Which leads into an interesting part of the expansion argument that nobody has covered:

The Big Ten very well could lose money per school if they add another school. Consider: The Big Ten has gotten a 2nd school into the BCS 9 of the last 12 years, which is good for an extra $17 million a kick. Estimates on revenue from a Big Ten championship game run from $5mill (ACC avg.) to $17mill(SEC avg.). Historically, the conferences with a championship game only get one team into the BCS. So, right now the Big Ten is getting $12.75 mill a year to not hold a championship game. If they drop to only getting a team in the BCS 2 out of 4 years and only average $5mill a year on their conf. championship game, they're only gaining $3mill over four years. Plus, assuming overall league revenue remains flat or goes up less than 9% after adding a 12th team, per team revenue would go down. The school presidents will most definitely pay attention to that stat.

The Big Ten will never add a school if they stand a reasonable risk of losing money in the deal.

That's the least thing that you need to worry about. It's a deal breaker.


Believe me...they will do the financial studies before considering anything.

[MplsBison]

No one seems to be discussing this too much...but why wouldn't the Big Ten take Rutgers, Pitt AND Missouri?

What's stopping them from being a 14 team conference?

[Seahawks Fan]

No one seems to be discussing this too much...but why wouldn't the Big Ten take Rutgers, Pitt AND Missouri?

What's stopping them from being a 14 team conference?

Everything I've read says the Big Ten is studying a move to 12 teams, but you make a good point.

[EPJr]

Maybe so, but it's on record that at least one Pac 10 AD has mentioned them as a candidate. Colorado State meets the academic minimums, as well, so they could go instead of Colorado. I think Utah is good enough, however, to forgive some sins for their travel partner.

P-10 is a couples conference and they need two teams to join the P-10 North so they would go either
Colorado - CSU
or
Utah - BYU

[Big Al]

P-10 is a couples conference and they need two teams to join the P-10 North so they would go either
Colorado - CSU
or
Utah - BYU

Forget BYU. Their academics suck. Plus, the Pac-10 doesn't like them for other reasons but the academics is their core fault.

As I stated in another post, Washington/WSU is about 6 hours apart. Utah is 8 hours from either Colorado or Colorado State. Not much of a jump travel-wise and I can certainly see the Pac-10 doing that.

Colorado/Colorado State is dangerous, as both teams have the academics to measure up to Pac-10 standards. The only question is do Colorado's athletic problems outweigh their academic strengths? Athletically, Colorado/CSU is much weaker than if you pair either team with Utah.

Utah has a great athletic program and is a very good research university, as well. On their own, they would be a nice addition to the Pac-10.

[UNHWildCats]

Everything I've read says the Big Ten is studying a move to 12 teams, but you make a good point.



Multiple Big Ten sources told the Tribune Wednesday that 14 teams, even 16, could be in play as it relates to the Big Ten's potential expansion. "Anything is possible," one source said, beyond the conventional wisdom of simply adding a 12th school.

And people think the CAA is bad with 12 teams xlolx

[UNHWildCats]

To clarify, I said Syracuse would be the best fit...I did not say the Big Ten is the best fit for Syracuse.

But to add to that...you want a reason: $$$$

* Big Ten schools cleared over $22 million PER school (yes, even Indiana made $22 million last year)

* Notre Dame with their all-mighty NBC contract brought in $15 million.

* Big East schools have a 6 year contract with ESPN worth $200 million contract = 33 million per year = $4 million per school on average


It's not even close in potential revenue. If Syracuse were in the Big Ten, they'd make an extra $18 million per year just on the basic TV deals.
your extra $18 million comment is a bit misleading. If the Big 10 expands to say 14 or even 16 teams which they apparently arent taking off the table then the sharing of revenue is split more so what each school gets goes down, even adding 1 team could lower the $22 million per. If we assume each team got $22 million this year and they add a team and have to redivide the same amount its now down nearly $2 million per school. But the point is still dead on. There is more money to be made in the Big 10 for Syracuse a lot more.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

your extra $18 million comment is a bit misleading. If the Big 10 expands to say 14 or even 16 teams which they apparently arent taking off the table then the sharing of revenue is split more so what each school gets goes down, even adding 1 team could lower the $22 million per. If we assume each team got $22 million this year and they add a team and have to redivide the same amount its now down nearly $2 million per school. But the point is still dead on. There is more money to be made in the Big 10 for Syracuse a lot more.

Your math is correct when you look at it simply as 12 way split vs 11 way split.

But it's a safe assumption that by adding a team which brings a potential surplus of TV sets via Syracuse, Rutgers, Notre Dame, etc...that the contract would get an instant boost. Plain and simple, the broadcasters WANT the Big Ten to add one fo these schools (markets) and will compensate accordingly.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Which leads into an interesting part of the expansion argument that nobody has covered:

The Big Ten very well could lose money per school if they add another school. Consider: The Big Ten has gotten a 2nd school into the BCS 9 of the last 12 years, which is good for an extra $17 million a kick. Estimates on revenue from a Big Ten championship game run from $5mill (ACC avg.) to $17mill(SEC avg.). Historically, the conferences with a championship game only get one team into the BCS. So, right now the Big Ten is getting $12.75 mill a year to not hold a championship game. If they drop to only getting a team in the BCS 2 out of 4 years and only average $5mill a year on their conf. championship game, they're only gaining $3mill over four years. Plus, assuming overall league revenue remains flat or goes up less than 9% after adding a 12th team, per team revenue would go down. The school presidents will most definitely pay attention to that stat.

I'd check on that figure. I thought so too some time ago. But then someone told me that a conferences 2nd bid is worth only 4.5 million.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

No one seems to be discussing this too much...but why wouldn't the Big Ten take Rutgers, Pitt AND Missouri?

What's stopping them from being a 14 team conference?


Nothing is. I don't put much into the "sources say" about the Big Ten going to 14 or 16. Until a name is said, I don't buy it.

But the Big Ten could monopolize the region and take the entire northeast: Boston College, UConn, Syracuse and Rutgers...along with either Missouri or Notre Dame. Talk about a power play.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

P-10 is a couples conference and they need two teams to join the P-10 North so they would go either
Colorado - CSU
or
Utah - BYU

2 options that aren't appealing to the Pac 10. it's not like the Pac 10 NEEDS to expand. They simply said they would consider it in the future. If forced to expand, sure, they might go that route. But chances are, if Texas turns them down again, they would go hard after Colorado and pair them with Utah.

[Go...gate]

Fair enough. I guess most Rutgers fans don't want the rest of the world to know they're Rutgers fans.


I think Pitt or Missouri would be the best choices for the Big Ten, however. Syracuse's football program is in the dumps right now and is only going to hurt the Big Ten's prestige for the time being. Likewise Syracuse is in the best basketball conference and is a basketball school...the market would definitely make sense from a B10 perspective, but the other aspects aren't as strong.

Rutgers, I'll give you market potential, but though their football team is on the rise I think they'd get knocked around in the Big Ten quite easily. Yeah, they won 8 games this year...but they were against Howard, FIU, Maryland, Texas Southern, Army, UConn, USF, and Lousiville...2 FCS programs, a Sun Belt team, a 2-10 ACC team, a 5-7 Army team, and 3 of the 4 teams below them in the Big East standings (somehow losing to Syracuse).


At least, from a prestige point of view, Pitt brings a school with 9 claimed National Championships (they decline to claim 2 others that have been named) and has a good number of greats to come through. Pitt definitely has a more reputable program than Rutgers. Academically things also sway in Pitt's favor, as this is a big thing to the Big Ten and Pitt is a member of the AAU, which every other member of the Big Ten is involved with as well, which Rutgers is not part of.


If the perceived market difference is enough to make up for the prestige (Pittsburgh is a big teleivision market regardless, not NYC metro big, but still quite large and with a lot less sports teams competing for viewer's attention) the academics may sway things back. It also brings Syracuse (still don't think its a good fit) and Missouri back into the equation, as both are members of the AAU as well, though Pitt generally ranks higher than either school in academic rankings (usually in the top 50 globally).





As long as Penn State is no longer on an island in the Big Ten I'll be happy, which means I'm against Missouri more than anything. Rutgers would, most certainly, be on an island...there's really no rivalry between Penn State there and they're so far away from everyone else, but I doubt the conference is going to be paying attention to stuff like that. Pitt already has a standing rivalry with Penn State and a mounted hatred of all things dealing with the state of Ohio (and the state of Ohio against Pittsburgh), so their transition would be smoother in that regard. Syracuse would have a similar problem. Missouri would fit right in with the more western Big Ten teams.


In the end I think it will come down to Missouri or Pitt. I just don't think Rutgers has a good enough overall package to entice the Big Ten unless they're a fall-back option. If Pitt decides it wants to be in a better basketball conference rather than a better football conference that brings in far more money for the school (very unlikely), Missouri decides its happy in the Big XII (I honestly can't say I know enough of the situation there to comment on the likelihood), and Syracuse decides its too perfect of a fit for the Big East too leave (possibility, money is really the only thing that could sway them...which is a good reason to jump) then Rutgers should be an option, but not until then.

Missouri & Pitt both have good football programs, great academics, large television markets, and solid all-around in other sports. Getting Pitt would instantly add prestige to the Big Ten as a basketball conference, which may play into things as well.

I believe Rutgers is a member of the AAU.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

I believe Rutgers is a member of the AAU.

Some AAU members being discussed for the Big Ten include...
Rutgers
Syracuse
Missouri
Pitt
Texas
Nebraska
Kansas
Iowa St.
Maryland

Plenty to chose from. But note, a school being in the AAU isn't a deal-breaker if the potential revenues for the selection were worth it. But it's a SAFE assumption that the next Big Ten school WILL be one of the schools above...and an AAU member.

[TTUEagles]

What about the University of Louisville? Very close to Indiana and Illinois. About to open a sparkling new downtown arena, expanding the football stadium to 60,000, doing very well in a lot of other sports, somewhat of a decent market, etc. It is a university pretty serious about it's athletics...I think that would be a great fit and b'ball fans would love to play Indiana/Ohio State/Illinois twice a year...

[Franks Tanks]

What about the University of Louisville? Very close to Indiana and Illinois. About to open a sparkling new downtown arena, expanding the football stadium to 60,000, doing very well in a lot of other sports, somewhat of a decent market, etc. It is a university pretty serious about it's athletics...I think that would be a great fit and b'ball fans would love to play Indiana/Ohio State/Illinois twice a year...

No Way-- the Big 10 wants land grant universities or Notre Dame. I say Rutgers and Missou with Pitt having an outside chance.

[EPJr]

Forget BYU. Their academics suck. Plus, the Pac-10 doesn't like them for other reasons but the academics is their core fault.

As I stated in another post, Washington/WSU is about 6 hours apart. Utah is 8 hours from either Colorado or Colorado State. Not much of a jump travel-wise and I can certainly see the Pac-10 doing that.

Colorado/Colorado State is dangerous, as both teams have the academics to measure up to Pac-10 standards. The only question is do Colorado's athletic problems outweigh their academic strengths? Athletically, Colorado/CSU is much weaker than if you pair either team with Utah.

Utah has a great athletic program and is a very good research university, as well. On their own, they would be a nice addition to the Pac-10.

CSU and CU will be in the same division with UW, WSU and OSU; I think they can hang. Besides as we we saw with the Arizona schools, once in the conference they will get a better grade of athletes.

[MplsBison]

Colorado is a major research school, member of the AAU, almost 600million a year research spending. They would fit right in with the PAC 10.

Utah and Colorado St are not at that level in research. Colo St is a bit higher, closer to 300 million than Utah which is closer to 250 million. Neither are AAU members.


So I guess it comes down to if they want to try to secure both CU and CSU alums in Colorado and really lock down that state or do they want to try to go for both Denver and Salt Lake by taking CU and U of UT?


I don't think anyone else on the west region is really viable, considering a combination of athletics, academics and market. U of Hawaii, U of New Mexico, U of Nevada and UNLV would be the closest and I don't think any of those would interest the current PAC 10 schools.

[Torgo]

And people think the CAA is bad with 12 teams xlolx

It wouldn't be unprecedented, the Big East has 16 schools...but half of them either don't sponsor football or are in the FCS (well, just Villanova).

Makes the basketball tournament interesting, at least...but the thought of a 16 team football conference is just mind-blowing.



As for Rutgers being part of the AAU...my bad. Misstep in research on my behalf.



As for the Pac-10...Colorado and Utah would be their best options. As a Colorado State fan I'd love to see the Rams get extended an invite, but I'm sure the Pac-10 would give Utah a bigger push. The difference in academics is minimal and the football programs have been heading in the opposite direction the past 5 or so years. Colorado's program is in shambles right now, but there's enough prestige to go on the belief that it will turn things around eventually.

[MightyMightyGriz]

The Dirty Dozen has a better ring to it. xnodx

That has my vote. Nice!!!!!!!

[TheValleyRaider]

It wouldn't be unprecedented, the Big East has 16 schools...but half of them either don't sponsor football or are in the FCS (well, just Villanova)

Don't forget Georgetown xreadx

[CollegeSportsInfo]

CSU and CU will be in the same division with UW, WSU and OSU; I think they can hang. Besides as we we saw with the Arizona schools, once in the conference they will get a better grade of athletes.

I could not imagine a situation, especially since college sports are now big-time money, where Colorado St. would even be part of ANY Pac-10 discussions...and that includes mythical 16 team expansions.

CSU adds nothing. No market. Limited fanbase.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

That has my vote. Nice!!!!!!!

I prefer "Big Ten(t)"

[Torgo]

Don't forget Georgetown xreadx

You call that a football team?

;)


Forgot about the Hoyas.

[Big Al]

AAU membership will not make or break entrance into the Pac-10 like it will the Big Ten. Neither Arizona State, Washington State, nor Oregon State are AAU members.


Colorado is a major research school, member of the AAU, almost 600million a year research spending. They would fit right in with the PAC 10.

Utah and Colorado St are not at that level in research. Colo St is a bit higher, closer to 300 million than Utah which is closer to 250 million. Neither are AAU members.


So I guess it comes down to if they want to try to secure both CU and CSU alums in Colorado and really lock down that state or do they want to try to go for both Denver and Salt Lake by taking CU and U of UT?


I don't think anyone else on the west region is really viable, considering a combination of athletics, academics and market. U of Hawaii, U of New Mexico, U of Nevada and UNLV would be the closest and I don't think any of those would interest the current PAC 10 schools.

[jcf5445]

It wouldn't be unprecedented, the Big East has 16 schools...but half of them either don't sponsor football or are in the FCS (well, just Villanova).

Makes the basketball tournament interesting, at least...but the thought of a 16 team football conference is just mind-blowing.



16 team football conferences should be avoided like the plague. Let's look at what happened to the WAC:

**WAC - Founded 1962**
Arizona (charter)
Arizona State (charter)
BYU (charter)
New Mexico (charter)
Utah (charter)
Wyoming (charter)
Colorado State (1967)
UTEP (1967)

That was a good conference, and as so often happens to up and coming conferences, the bigger and better Pac-8 stepped in and took the 2 cash cows in 1978 - Arizona and Arizona State. Three schools were added over the next 3 years to replace them.

San Diego State (1978)
Hawaii (1979)
Air Force (1980)

It was a well-respected conference throughout the 80s and BYU even won a national championship in football. They decided to add a 10th member for non-football scheduling:

Fresno State (1992)

At this time 3 major events took place that eventually steered the WAC in the wrong direction - 1: The SEC expanded to 12 teams and held a conference championship game in 1992. 2: The Big West was dying because of the losses of Long Beach State (1991), Cal State-Fullerton (1992), and Pacific (1995) - the conference had only 5 western members remaining after the 1995 season- Nevada, UNLV, Utah State, New Mexico State, and San Jose State. 3: The Southwest Conference had announced its intentions to dissolve, leaving 4 members without a home - Houston, Rice, SMU, and TCU.

The WAC wanted a conference championship game and they wanted to squash their only - albeit very weak - competition, the Big West. To accomplish both goals, 6 teams were added:

Rice (1996) - SWC
San Jose State (1996) - Big West
SMU (1996) - SWC
TCU (1996) - SWC
Tulsa (1996) - Ind
UNLV (1996) - Big West

They operated in 2 eight team divisions for the next 3 seasons, but the old WAC powers from the 80s felt there were too many weak programs that were getting a share of the pie. Also, while the WAC did successfully hold a championship game, they failed to squash the Big West, which was bailed out by the additions of Boise State, Idaho, and North Texas from I-AA in 1996.

In 1999, in a successful attempt to cut off dead weight and make more money, 8 WAC members broke off and formed the Mountain West:

**Mountain West - Founded 1999**
Air Force
BYU
Colorado State
New Mexico
San Diego State
UNLV
Utah
Wyoming

The WAC could no longer host a championship game, so they turned their focus again to the Big West, which they finally squashed by taking 2 members along with an independent:

Nevada (2000) Big West
Boise State (2001) Big West
Louisiana Tech (2001) Ind

However, TCU was in the process of re-emphasizing their athletics program and left to join Conference USA in 2001, because they felt it was a step above the WAC.

Idaho, New Mexico State, and Utah State were denied membership into the WAC after the Big West dissolved. All would eventually end up in the newly-organized Sun Belt.

The WAC was embarassed by what happened with the Mountain West, but everything seemed okay. That was unil the ACC initiated the last big conference shakeup in 2004 and 2005. It eventually led to Conference USA taking Rice, SMU, Tulsa, and UTEP from the WAC. As a side note, it also led to the Mountain West taking TCU in 2005. This forced the WAC to accept the last rejects of the Big West from the Sun Belt:

Idaho (2005)
New Mexico State (2005)
Utah State (2005)

To make things even more embarassing, North Texas declined an invitation to the WAC and chose to remain in the Sun Belt. And now the rumors are quite strong that the Mountain West will soon step in and take Boise State, Fresno State, and one other member - the most-rumored being Nevada - so that they can hold a championship game.

Ironically, in the end, the WAC ended up being supplanted by the Mountain West and has essentially become little more significant than was the Big West. If the Pac-10 does expand, then the Mountain West will be forced to raid the WAC, and the WAC may be in the same situation the Big West was 13 years ago when they had to be saved by transition schools. History seems to have a way of repeating itself, lol.

12 really seems to be the largest sustainable number in FBS. Anything bigger than that and the haves will probably split away from the have nots. I know the MAC has 13, but Temple is an affiliate, and the other 12 are joined very tightly at the hip. They actually had 14 for a short time with one affiliate, and it was probably a good thing that Marshall and UCF were taken by CUSA, or else there could have been dissension within the MAC. I'm looking forward to see what happens with the Big Ten and Pac-10. I would love to see them both have championship games. It would also be awesome if those championship games determined something as significant as home field advantage - or even a berth - in a playoff system, but I guess I should stop dreaming.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Isn't the problem with the Pac 10 that they have dead weight of their own (Washington, Washington State) already? If they don't need to expand, anything further and they'll really water down their product. Of course, dead weight doesn't seem to hamper the Big XII any.

The only Big East team that makes any sort of sense for the Big 10 is Pitt, who would regain their rivalry with Penn State and have chip-shot trips to Penn State and Ohio State for games. Anyone east of Happy Valley will just see too much of an increase in costs to make it worthwhile, IMO. I think the talk to Rutgers and Boise State is just that, talk.

[Big Al]

Wazzou is and has been a terrible program but Washington looks to be back up on top, where they used to be on a fairly regular basis. As far as watering-down goes, that may be so, but when it comes to conference affiliations, money will trump pride. All this talk about conference realignment is solely about the Benjamins.

I agree about Pitt -- if the Big Ten can't land Notre Dame, then Pitt seems like the best choice to me. I wonder what Pitt's cost would be to buy out from the Big East?



Isn't the problem with the Pac 10 that they have dead weight of their own (Washington, Washington State) already? If they don't need to expand, anything further and they'll really water down their product. Of course, dead weight doesn't seem to hamper the Big XII any.

The only Big East team that makes any sort of sense for the Big 10 is Pitt, who would regain their rivalry with Penn State and have chip-shot trips to Penn State and Ohio State for games. Anyone east of Happy Valley will just see too much of an increase in costs to make it worthwhile, IMO. I think the talk to Rutgers and Boise State is just that, talk.

[Franks Tanks]

Isn't the problem with the Pac 10 that they have dead weight of their own (Washington, Washington State) already? If they don't need to expand, anything further and they'll really water down their product. Of course, dead weight doesn't seem to hamper the Big XII any.

The only Big East team that makes any sort of sense for the Big 10 is Pitt, who would regain their rivalry with Penn State and have chip-shot trips to Penn State and Ohio State for games. Anyone east of Happy Valley will just see too much of an increase in costs to make it worthwhile, IMO. I think the talk to Rutgers and Boise State is just that, talk.

Washington isnt dead weight. They will be at the top of the PAC-10 in football within a year or two.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Isn't the problem with the Pac 10 that they have dead weight of their own (Washington, Washington State) already? If they don't need to expand, anything further and they'll really water down their product. Of course, dead weight doesn't seem to hamper the Big XII any.

The only Big East team that makes any sort of sense for the Big 10 is Pitt, who would regain their rivalry with Penn State and have chip-shot trips to Penn State and Ohio State for games. Anyone east of Happy Valley will just see too much of an increase in costs to make it worthwhile, IMO. I think the talk to Rutgers and Boise State is just that, talk.

Funny how opinions work. The 1 school that makes the least sense to me for the Big Ten is Pitt. They add a market that is already dominated by Penn St. And since we're talking the northeast where travel is cheaper (shorter distances) you have options like Syracuse or Rutgers that provide so much more than Pitt.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Wazzou is and has been a terrible program but Washington looks to be back up on top, where they used to be on a fairly regular basis. As far as watering-down goes, that may be so, but when it comes to conference affiliations, money will trump pride. All this talk about conference realignment is solely about the Benjamins.

I agree about Pitt -- if the Big Ten can't land Notre Dame, then Pitt seems like the best choice to me. I wonder what Pitt's cost would be to buy out from the Big East?

Buyouts for the Big East schools are I BELIEVE $10 million. Costs went up after BC left since the remaining Big East schools are so vulnerable: if a BE school leaves, the conference is under 8 members and risks losing their BCS bid.

Note that the price is what it is so that schools won't leave if the gain is minimal. So if the ACC offered an invite and the gained revenue would be only $3 million, a school might balk. BUT FOR THE BIG TEN...you're TV revenue will go from 4 million a year to 22 million. So Syracuse, Rutgers, Pitt, etc would still make money the first year, even with a 10 million buyout.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Funny how opinions work. The 1 school that makes the least sense to me for the Big Ten is Pitt. They add a market that is already dominated by Penn St. And since we're talking the northeast where travel is cheaper (shorter distances) you have options like Syracuse or Rutgers that provide so much more than Pitt.

Question - and I don't mean to pretend myself an expert here - how does the travel expense with Olympic/non-revenue sports play into this? Or does it not matter since the Big East stretches from Connecticut to Florida to the Midwest anyway?

Rutgers doesn't have a lot of synergy to lose in football, but they would lose a lot of basketball synergy IMO if they had Michigan State instead of UConn on the hoops schedule. Same goes for Syracuse. But with Pitt... that's different IMO.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I still believe there needs to be a midwest bball conference as well. I think football and basketcall conference affiliations can be different than olympic sports at the highest level.

I think a bball conference of Louisville, Marquette, Notre Dame, DePaul, Memphis, Xavier, Butler, Creighton, St. Louis and Dayton makes sense and give those schools a better identity when it comes to hoops.

[Big Al]

It's called the MVC.


I still believe there needs to be a midwest bball conference as well. I think football and basketcall conference affiliations can be different than olympic sports at the highest level.

I think a bball conference of Louisville, Marquette, Notre Dame, DePaul, Memphis, Xavier, Butler, Creighton, St. Louis and Dayton makes sense and give those schools a better identity when it comes to hoops.

[Seahawks Fan]

Two teams lead the race to be named 12th school for the Big Ten Conference


By Justin Hoff
mlive.com
December 20, 2009, 11:32AM


Rumors have been rampant across the nation the last few days ever since the Big Ten Conference announced they would look heavily into expanding its league over the next 12-18 months.

The question everyone wants to know is who will be the 12th member if expansion is in fact decided. With that question it seems everybody and their mother is trying to answer this so with that said - I guess it's my turn.

First off, I am a fan of expansion in the Big Ten Conference. I read the report out of the Chicago Tribune that suggests the Big Ten could go big by expanding its conference to either 14 or even 16 teams. I think that suggestion is ludicrous and will not happen.

I'm not here to live in fantasyland, I'm just here to present the facts and give some opinions on what could really happen.

http://blog.mlive.com/thediag/2009/12/two_teams_lead_the_race_to_be.html

[appmaj]

Rutgers???

[Cocky]

Why is Kentucky not mentioned?

[Franks Tanks]

Rutgers???

Yes-- Rutgers is one of the biggest and best state universities in the country and they have an emerging FB program. Exactly why not Rutgers?

[OhioHen]

Yes-- Rutgers is one of the biggest and best state universities in the country and they have an emerging FB program. Exactly why not Rutgers?

Getting Rutgers in the fold adds the Philadelphia to New York corridor as a natural recruiting area and puts two more big television markets in the lineup.

Add in the fact that JoePa listed Rutgers as one of the three teams he'd like to see added and it's not a bad choice.

[Seahawks Fan]

Rutgers???


Yes Rutgers. The State University of New Jersey.

[GannonFan]

Getting Rutgers in the fold adds the Philadelphia to New York corridor as a natural recruiting area and puts two more big television markets in the lineup.

Add in the fact that JoePa listed Rutgers as one of the three teams he'd like to see added and it's not a bad choice.

Aren't those corridors already clearly within the Big 10's domain right now? Even without Penn St in the Big 10 you see tons of top recruits from NJ and PA got to places like Michigan and Ohio St. I'd argue that the Big 10 already dominates those areas. And from a TV perspective, Philly is solidly a Big 10 market right now as Penn St couldn't be any more dominant in that market. The only time you see Rutgers on in the Philly market is when they are an ESPN broadcast and Penn St's not playing. Otherwise it's all Penn St.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Aren't those corridors already clearly within the Big 10's domain right now? Even without Penn St in the Big 10 you see tons of top recruits from NJ and PA got to places like Michigan and Ohio St. I'd argue that the Big 10 already dominates those areas. And from a TV perspective, Philly is solidly a Big 10 market right now as Penn St couldn't be any more dominant in that market. The only time you see Rutgers on in the Philly market is when they are an ESPN broadcast and Penn St's not playing. Otherwise it's all Penn St.

You add Pitt to that mix, and you'd have a lockdown on PA talent going to the Big 10.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Question - and I don't mean to pretend myself an expert here - how does the travel expense with Olympic/non-revenue sports play into this? Or does it not matter since the Big East stretches from Connecticut to Florida to the Midwest anyway?

Rutgers doesn't have a lot of synergy to lose in football, but they would lose a lot of basketball synergy IMO if they had Michigan State instead of UConn on the hoops schedule. Same goes for Syracuse. But with Pitt... that's different IMO.

Great points. The Big East does have a crazy travel schedule and costs for it's members. Rutgers currently needs to go to Rhode Island, Chicago, Milwaukee, Tampa, Cincy, Louisville, etc. They do have close trips to Seton Hall and St. Johns which they would miss. But in the end, the travel isn't THAT much of an increase in switching from the Big East to Big Ten. The approximate 15-18 million revenue boost would be enough to offset the difference. Hell, San Diego St. could join the Big Ten and turn a profit ;)

You're right about basketball rivalries hurting. But new ones get built. And in times when you can watch and game you want at any time, rivalries get created on the court/field now. Rutgers and Louisville became a rivalry with the fans in 2006 since both teams were doing so well in football. Sure, they only played 1 football game against each other. But if BC was tops in hoops and Georgia Tech was #2, they'd become rivals.

But geographic rivals are the history that we hold on to and appreciate. And I think if rutgers were the #12 you would instantly see a strong rivalry form between Penn St. and Rutgers. But that's just my opinion being born in central Jersey in Somerville and growing up in north Jersey on the NY state border. I make it back to NJ once a year or two and have seen such a boost in the fan following for Rutgers.

[GannonFan]

Great points. The Big East does have a crazy travel schedule and costs for it's members. Rutgers currently needs to go to Rhode Island, Chicago, Milwaukee, Tampa, Cincy, Louisville, etc. They do have close trips to Seton Hall and St. Johns which they would miss. But in the end, the travel isn't THAT much of an increase in switching from the Big East to Big Ten. The approximate 15-18 million revenue boost would be enough to offset the difference. Hell, San Diego St. could join the Big Ten and turn a profit ;)

You're right about basketball rivalries hurting. But new ones get built. And in times when you can watch and game you want at any time, rivalries get created on the court/field now. Rutgers and Louisville became a rivalry with the fans in 2006 since both teams were doing so well in football. Sure, they only played 1 football game against each other. But if BC was tops in hoops and Georgia Tech was #2, they'd become rivals.

But geographic rivals are the history that we hold on to and appreciate. And I think if rutgers were the #12 you would instantly see a strong rivalry form between Penn St. and Rutgers. But that's just my opinion being born in central Jersey in Somerville and growing up in north Jersey on the NY state border. I make it back to NJ once a year or two and have seen such a boost in the fan following for Rutgers.

Does Rutgers even have a basketball "rivalry" with anyone in the Big East? Maybe Seton Hall, but I can't think of anyone else who would really consider Rutgers a rival in Big East basketball.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

I still believe there needs to be a midwest bball conference as well. I think football and basketcall conference affiliations can be different than olympic sports at the highest level.

I think a bball conference of Louisville, Marquette, Notre Dame, DePaul, Memphis, Xavier, Butler, Creighton, St. Louis and Dayton makes sense and give those schools a better identity when it comes to hoops.

* The problem is the money is in football too. So you can remove Louisville and Memphis from the list.

* The other issue is obviously that a NEW conference means no automatic basketball tourney berth

* I love the idea of a mid-west basketball league and have been on that bandwagon...the problem being what I just wrote about tourney bids. But a bigger problem...

* TV Contracts: schools need to be in conferences with real TV contracts since so much revenue is generated by them. When CUSA became ALL-sports and wanted ONLY all-sports members, DePaul and Marquette could have joined the MVC or worked to create a new league in the region. They didn't. St. Louis could have joined the MVC but they chose the A10.

Think about it, you could have had DePaul, Marquette and St. Louis EASILY court Xavier and Dayton from the A10, along with Butler and Detroit from the Horizon, and Creighton, Bradley, Drake..and maybe Notre Dame (instead of Drake) for a 10 team league.

But it didn't happen.

Because these schools WANT to be in a conference with BIG MARKET east coast schools. It makes sense to us that schools want to be in a better geographic fit, but it's big money at stake. It's why Boston College is in the ACC where it's geographic rival is Maryland. It's why San Diego St. is in the MWC instead of the WAC and why USF is in the Big East when it's closest league rival is in DC or West Virginia.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Why is Kentucky not mentioned?

A southern mentality school in a conference that generates a ton of cash for them. Not quite the same as Missouri to the Big Ten, since Missouri makes much less in that conference due to the structure of the revenue sharing pact the schools have.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Does Rutgers even have a basketball "rivalry" with anyone in the Big East? Maybe Seton Hall, but I can't think of anyone else who would really consider Rutgers a rival in Big East basketball.

Not really. They joined the Big East in the late 90's with WVU (both left the A10) and it's safe to say that the Big East has gone through some changes. The biggest change being that the football schools now run the show. Schools like Providence, Seton Hall, St. Johns now dwarf the power even a WVU has in basketball now with 7 other football schools.

Every conference has it's doormats in a given season and on the football side of the BE16, Rutgers is fairly low. Nobody would want to be their rival if it means a battle of the cellar dwellers. ;)

[MplsBison]

What if the main BCS conferences all expand to 14 one after the other?

Big Ten fires first volley by taking Missouri, Pitt and Rutgers.

Minn Iowa
Wisc Nwstrn
Ill Mizzou
Ind Pur
Mich MichSt
OhioSt Pitt
PennSt Rutgers

Then the Pac10 surprises everyone by taking Colorado, Colorado St, Utah and New Mexico to go to 14

Wash WashSt
Ore OreSt
Stan Cal
USC UCLA
Ariz ArizSt
Utah NewMex
Colo ColoSt


Big XII is reeling and fires back by taking TCU, Houston, SMU and Rice (they try to get Arkansas to leave the SEC, but fail)

IowaSt Neb
Kan KanSt
Okla OklaSt
Tex TexA&M
Tech Baylor
TCU SMU
Hou Rice


SEC won't be left at 12 and take Florida State and Clemson

Ark LSU
Miss MissSt
Ala Aub
Tenn Ken
Vandy Geor
SouCar Clem
Fla FlaSt

ACC fires back by taking Syracuse, UConn, South Fla and West Virginia

Syra BC
UConn Maryland
South Fla Miami
Virg VT
West Va NC St
UNC Duke
GT Wake


That leaves the Big East with only Cincy and Louisville as the odd men out and leaves the Moutain West with BYU, SanDiegoSt, Wyoming, UNLV and Air Force.

Louisville and Cincy go back to CUSA (along with UTSA in the future) and fight for a BCS autobid with a rebuilt MWC after they take WAC schools Hawaii, Fresno, Boise, Nevada, UtahSt and SanJoseSt.

[Big Al]

What if the main BCS conferences all expand to 14 one after the other?

Why in the world would they do that?

[Seawolf97]

That is a major transformation to say the least.

[Go...gate]

Disagree.

Rutgers has better market potential and comparable academics. Both are AAU.

Right. Moreover, ND really sees itself as a national team in football. Missouri is one of the great land-grant schools, but Rutgers is damned good as well.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

What if the main BCS conferences all expand to 14 one after the other?

Personally, I just dont' see that ever happening. It will only mean less revenue.

The SEC has a 25 year contract with ESPN and they can't renegotiate. They make the 2nd most TV revenue in the process at over 200 million. The Big 12 is third and under 100 million. For a breakdown of the BCS Tv revenue, click her (http://news.collegesportsinfo.com/2009/12/2009-college-sports-tv-revenue-by.html)e.

There are only (2) scenarios in which I see current BCS conferences expanding to 14:

1) Big Ten: by owning their own network along with their current TV deals (the Big Ten makes $242 million per year) they have flexibility in expansion. They could expand to 14 by adding large TV markets (NYC with Syracuse and Rutgers) along with either Missouri, Pitt, etc as #14) and actually make MORE money. By adding these large markets, they can then get more large local cable companies to pay them to carry their network.

2) The ACC: A longshot. But the recent Big Ten plans might force the ACC to make a move. They currently have a weak $67 million TV revenue figure. They are up for a new deal and could be targeted hard by NBC/Comcast. The ACC could make a move to protect their interests in the Northeast. By adding Syracuse and Rutgers, they would bridge Boston College to Maryland and dominate the TV rich northeast market. Just by adding Rutgers and Syracuse and gaining all those TV sets, the ACC could likely use that as leverage to actually get a higher payout per school.

The key for the ACC would be to get this deal done with the Pac-10 to create a joint TV network. All of a sudden you'd have the west coast and east coast markets. But again, the 14 team ACC with (2) new northern members might be necessary for the TV deal to work.


Not a bad divisional split for the ACC in this scenario:
North: Boston College, Syracuse, Rutgers, Maryland, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Miami
South: Duke, UNC, NC State, Wake Forrest, Clemson, GA Tech, FSU

[chrisattsu]

Personally, I just dont' see that ever happening. It will only mean less revenue.

The SEC has a 25 year contract with ESPN and they can't renegotiate. They make the 2nd most TV revenue in the process at over 200 million. The Big 12 is third and under 100 million. For a breakdown of the BCS Tv revenue, click her (http://news.collegesportsinfo.com/2009/12/2009-college-sports-tv-revenue-by.html)e.

There are only (2) scenarios in which I see current BCS conferences expanding to 14:

1) Big Ten: by owning their own network along with their current TV deals (the Big Ten makes $242 million per year) they have flexibility in expansion. They could expand to 14 by adding large TV markets (NYC with Syracuse and Rutgers) along with either Missouri, Pitt, etc as #14) and actually make MORE money. By adding these large markets, they can then get more large local cable companies to pay them to carry their network.

2) The ACC: A longshot. But the recent Big Ten plans might force the ACC to make a move. They currently have a weak $67 million TV revenue figure. They are up for a new deal and could be targeted hard by NBC/Comcast. The ACC could make a move to protect their interests in the Northeast. By adding Syracuse and Rutgers, they would bridge Boston College to Maryland and dominate the TV rich northeast market. Just by adding Rutgers and Syracuse and gaining all those TV sets, the ACC could likely use that as leverage to actually get a higher payout per school.

The key for the ACC would be to get this deal done with the Pac-10 to create a joint TV network. All of a sudden you'd have the west coast and east coast markets. But again, the 14 team ACC with (2) new northern members might be necessary for the TV deal to work.


Not a bad divisional split for the ACC in this scenario:
North: Boston College, Syracuse, Rutgers, Maryland, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Miami
South: Duke, UNC, NC State, Wake Forrest, Clemson, GA Tech, FSU

It seems kinda strange to put the Southernmost team in the Northern division

[CollegeSportsInfo]

It seems kinda strange to put the Southernmost team in the Northern division

You can start a letter writing campaign to the NFL (Miami in division with NE, NY, Buf) or MLB (Marlins in division with NYM, Philly, ATL). ;)

Miami might be in the south, but it is more connected to the northeast than any other ACC market. Not to mention, UMiami has a tradition with northeast schools such Boston College, Syracuse, Rutgers and Virginia Tech.

And if you're the ACC, you need to offer the Florida recruiting market to all the schools in the conference. So the Syracuse coach can recruit in Florida and tell the recruits that every season, they will play against Miami, twice IN Miami over 4 years.

Throw in that Miami is VERY easy to get to if you are in a northeast market since there are so many flights there.