LFN: Why Have Football?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2009/12/why-have-football.html

It's the big question - a question that Hofstra's and Northeastern's president answered with a resounding "we don't need football". Read my explanation on why football is important. Much of it is about the Patriot League, but any private FCS school also would probably see things in there of their own schools as well.

[Go...gate]

In this respect, southern schools have it all over northern schools. They get it. Football is important to school spirit and institutional advancement (what we used to call "development", or "fund raising"). If football loses money on the gridiron, it is more than made up by fundraising and goodwill, e.g, "friendraising".

[ronpayne]

Well written post! I agree with the subtle question running through your post - "what are the ramifications for this happening potentially at other schools and/or other programs?

Hopefully, there will be enough momentum to restore Lehigh Football to its active status!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Well written post! I agree with the subtle question running through your post - "what are the ramifications for this happening potentially at other schools and/or other programs?

Hopefully, there will be enough momentum to restore Lehigh Football to its active status!

Thanks for the props - though I hope Lehigh counts as an "active status" already! :D

[bonarae]

In this respect, southern schools have it all over northern schools. They get it. Football is important to school spirit and institutional advancement (what we used to call "development", or "fund raising"). If football loses money on the gridiron, it is more than made up by fundraising and goodwill, e.g, "friendraising".

True. The Ivies aren't exactly Northern football, fans support it but the presidents don't.
Rutgers and the Ivies are the innovators of football, and it played a huge role in shaping the universities' history, that's why we still play football up to this day despite living with the strict limits set upon by the Presidents.

[Bogus Megapardus]

A couple other things make PL football distinctive. I know I share some of these views with others because we've discussed them before. One is a visceral allegiance to the schools in the league, which far predates the league itself. Yes we have storied rivalries like Lafayette - Lehigh where we pretend to despise each other once a year (and do so rather convincingly, I might add). But we tend also to stand collectively behind our league, and all the schools in it. For the most part, we sink or swim together and we have one another's back. Second, we don't have sports "programs" such that they are distinguishable from the institutions themselves. Sports, including football, remain a participatory activity at PL schools. The guys you see on the field are the guys you see in biology lab. At Lafayette, at least, you either are a varsity athlete yourself, or your freshman roommate or the kid sitting next to you in Fluid Dynamics is a varsity athlete. Students do not look on the field and see a "football program" because they are us and we are them. I mean, you know the kid who just dropped that pass and you feel his pain.

It's just my view, but I still say that a non-scholarship northeastern college of only about 2,000 students that can average nearly 10,000 spectators per football game is doing something right. The participatory nature of its sports has to be part of that "something."

Very nice article, LFN. You should send it the the BOT members of every PL school!

[colorless raider]

In this respect, southern schools have it all over northern schools. They get it. Football is important to school spirit and institutional advancement (what we used to call "development", or "fund raising"). If football loses money on the gridiron, it is more than made up by fundraising and goodwill, e.g, "friendraising".

Excellent point "Go 'Gate"

[colorless raider]

A couple other things make PL football distinctive. I know I share some of these views with others because we've discussed them before. One is a visceral allegiance to the schools in the league, which far predates the league itself. Yes we have storied rivalries like Lafayette - Lehigh where we pretend to despise each other once a year (and do so rather convincingly, I might add). But we tend also to stand collectively behind our league, and all the schools in it. For the most part, we sink or swim together and we have one another's back. Second, we don't have sports "programs" such that they are distinguishable from the institutions themselves. Sports, including football, remain a participatory activity at PL schools. The guys you see on the field are the guys you see in biology lab. At Lafayette, at least, you either are a varsity athlete yourself, or your freshman roommate or the kid sitting next to you in Fluid Dynamics is a varsity athlete. Students do not look on the field and see a "football program" because they are us and we are them. I mean, you know the kid who just dropped that pass and you feel his pain.

It's just my view, but I still say that a non-scholarship northeastern college of only about 2,000 students that can average nearly 10,000 spectators per football game is doing something right. The participatory nature of its sports has to be part of that "something."

Very nice article, LFN. You should send it the the BOT members of every PL school!

Exactly, fire it off to the BOT's.

[chattanoogamocs]

At Chattanooga, a number of the professors have openly question the value of football...but, we are fortunate that our Chancellor "gets it"...that football is the "front porch" of a University.

This year, we had a former football player (who is now worth in excess of $100 million) give $500K to the football program...but...he also gave $1.5mil to the business department.

Needless to say, the dean of the business department now "gets" the value of football. :)

[Bogus Megapardus]

At Chattanooga, a number of the professors have openly question the value of football...but, we are fortunate that our Chancellor "gets it"...that football is the "front porch" of a University.

This year, we had a former football player (who is now worth in excess of $100 million) give $500K to the football program...but...he also gave $1.5mil to the business department.

Needless to say, the dean of the business department now "gets" the value of football. :)

Way back when there were maybe a dozen colleges total playing football - Harvard, Penn, Fordham, Lafayette, Army, Rutgers, Yale and a few others - and there was no "U.S. News and World Report" to compare colleges. They played football and the New York Times wrote about who was best. So yes, there remains something to be said about football being the "front porch" of a college. It goes way back.

[Zangzigger]

I think that FCS schools have to figure out a way to lower the costs for their football programs. Less travel by air?

[ngineer]

In this respect, southern schools have it all over northern schools. They get it. Football is important to school spirit and institutional advancement (what we used to call "development", or "fund raising"). If football loses money on the gridiron, it is more than made up by fundraising and goodwill, e.g, "friendraising".

Very true, however, the southern schools also have a different 'culture' when it comes to sports. For whatever reason, the northeastern schools have student bodies that just don't automatically gather and 'war chant' together. Call it a 'tribalism' mentality versus a lot of 'individualism' mentality.

[ngineer]

Way back when there were maybe a dozen colleges total playing football - Harvard, Penn, Fordham, Lafayette, Army, Rutgers, Yale and a few others - and there was no "U.S. News and World Report" to compare colleges. They played football and the New York Times wrote about who was best. So yes, there remains something to be said about football being the "front porch" of a college. It goes way back.

Also very true. Athletics, today as well, is what keeps a school's name in the press. Rarely the academic/research achievements get the same headline are are found on page 14c somewhere between world and local news. When a school gets 'hot' on the gridiron or court, we have all seen the resultant increase in applications to the school and giving.

[65 Pard]

Most things in society revert to the lowest common denominator.....Football is the public face of a college for most of the populace.

[RichH2]

Bogus has as usual hit the point squarely. Football and really all other sports are an intrinsic part of the community at PL schools. Yourself, your roommate, etc etc are on one team or the next. the same is rue for alumni. Ilove my teamsand by extension I find I root for all of ourteams vs OOC.

[maristdb89]

Nice post.

[maristdb89]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2009/12/why-have-football.html

It's the big question - a question that Hofstra's and Northeastern's president answered with a resounding "we don't need football". Read my explanation on why football is important. Much of it is about the Patriot League, but any private FCS school also would probably see things in there of their own schools as well.

Nice Post.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Nice Post.

Hey Marist - So, could the Pollster Pundits of Poughkeepsie (a) adopt and adhere to the PL academic index and (b) move all their sports to the PL? I know the PFL was great for the school and for Marist football this year, and most think "that ship has sailed." But if Fordham bolts I'm changing my uneducated, uncalled for opinion. I want Marist. Maybe the PL can help you make it so that "V" school across town doesn't even exist anymore.

[ThompsonThe]

I have always thought that the Ivy League schools should have an exemption and be labeled as FBS.
After all Notre Dame makes over a million a year on the BCS, and about 4.5 million when they are in a BCS bowl game. Army and Navy have exemptions to stay FBS, so why not the Ivies?

[Bogus Megapardus]

I have always thought that the Ivy League schools should have an exemption and be labeled as FBS.
After all Notre Dame makes over a million a year on the BCS, and about 4.5 million when they are in a BCS bowl game. Army and Navy have exemptions to stay FBS, so why not the Ivies?

When 1AA was formed some but not all Ivies could have gone to FBS. Yale and Harvard for sure. But who would they play at that level? There are no needs-based only schools at the FBS level. In fact, the Patriot League was created by the Ivy League in order to give the Ivies someone to play.

Army and Navy are in the PL for all sports except football. I am watching the Army - Navy game right now, and my guess is that the top three PL schools and both Harvard and Penn could play even with Army right now. It would be so clutch for the PL if some way could be found for the service academies to play PL football. They wont, because they want a more national schedule for recruiting and for veterans across the country to be able to attend the games. Travel budgets are not a concern for the academies.

[Go...gate]

A couple other things make PL football distinctive. I know I share some of these views with others because we've discussed them before. One is a visceral allegiance to the schools in the league, which far predates the league itself. Yes we have storied rivalries like Lafayette - Lehigh where we pretend to despise each other once a year (and do so rather convincingly, I might add). But we tend also to stand collectively behind our league, and all the schools in it. For the most part, we sink or swim together and we have one another's back. Second, we don't have sports "programs" such that they are distinguishable from the institutions themselves. Sports, including football, remain a participatory activity at PL schools. The guys you see on the field are the guys you see in biology lab. At Lafayette, at least, you either are a varsity athlete yourself, or your freshman roommate or the kid sitting next to you in Fluid Dynamics is a varsity athlete. Students do not look on the field and see a "football program" because they are us and we are them. I mean, you know the kid who just dropped that pass and you feel his pain.

It's just my view, but I still say that a non-scholarship northeastern college of only about 2,000 students that can average nearly 10,000 spectators per football game is doing something right. The participatory nature of its sports has to be part of that "something."

Very nice article, LFN. You should send it the the BOT members of every PL school!

Very well said.

[Go...gate]

Hey Marist - So, could the Pollster Pundits of Poughkeepsie (a) adopt and adhere to the PL academic index and (b) move all their sports to the PL? I know the PFL was great for the school and for Marist football this year, and most think "that ship has sailed." But if Fordham bolts I'm changing my uneducated, uncalled for opinion. I want Marist. Maybe the PL can help you make it so that "V" school across town doesn't even exist anymore.

For Marist, one consideration may be very big. Cost. The PL is a bus league for them compared to the PFL.

[JD51]

Hey Marist - So, could the Pollster Pundits of Poughkeepsie (a) adopt and adhere to the PL academic index and (b) move all their sports to the PL? I know the PFL was great for the school and for Marist football this year, and most think "that ship has sailed." But if Fordham bolts I'm changing my uneducated, uncalled for opinion. I want Marist. Maybe the PL can help you make it so that "V" school across town doesn't even exist anymore.

That's a good question. Would Marist be able to adhere to the AI and effectively recruit athletes? One of the objections often raised on this board is that Marist does not quite meet the academic standards of the PL.

It's a nice thought and association with PL schools would be great, but it would be like "Carrie" for Marist. Getting invited to the prom only to have pig blood dumped on you xsmiley_wix

[boo]

Or, PL membership pulls Marist up. Marist is already on an upward trajectory and association with PL schools could give a dramatic push.

I'm sure our school will now get bashed by PL posters. It's ironic that its always a PL poster that mentions Marist and then our school gets dumped on by all the other PL posters here. Rarely is it someone from Marist suggesting we should be in the PL. I'm getting tired of being the whipping boy when we're pretty content where we are and we're not the ones mentioning PL membership.

~~Boo

[Bogus Megapardus]

Or, PL membership pulls Marist up. Marist is already on an upward trajectory and association with PL schools could give a dramatic push.

I'm sure our school will now get bashed by PL posters. It's ironic that its always a PL poster that mentions Marist and then our school gets dumped on by all the other PL posters here. Rarely is it someone from Marist suggesting we should be in the PL. I'm getting tired of being the whipping boy when we're pretty content where we are and we're not the ones mentioning PL membership.

~~Boo

It's no secret that Marist has been considered for membership in the past and individuals connected to the school itself have made public statements about its desire to join. I agree with you - I have never read a derogatory comment about the PL from a Marist poster (check the CAA boards and you'll see hundreds of them). In fact, beating Georgetown is a huge deal for Marist fans, as it should be. And Marist was kick away from beating Bucknell, which beat Holy Cross, etc . . . . xrolleyesx

I, too, would be content with my new football affiliation in the PFL. For now, I hope that Marist continues to schedule its OOC games against the PL. One never knows what the future might hold.

[WestCoastAggie]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2009/12/why-have-football.html

It's the big question - a question that Hofstra's and Northeastern's president answered with a resounding "we don't need football". Read my explanation on why football is important. Much of it is about the Patriot League, but any private FCS school also would probably see things in there of their own schools as well.

Most HBCU's haven't figured out how to compete in football and thus bring in the money that other schools have seen. I am quite surprise more Historically Black Colleges and Universities haven't went the way of Hofstra and Northeastern yet.

[TheHerb]

I really enjoyed this article, as it raises many great points. I agree that football, and athletics in general, can be used to build a university community. In the normal course of college, there are few moments when entire class years, let alone schools come together and get behind something. Sporting events are definitely one of those times. They are integral to bringing students together outside of the classroom. When you forge those kinds of bonds to a school among students, then you generate the bucks later in alumni donations.

As per the North/South difference in getting behind a team:It seems that the communities surrounding Southern schools really get behind their teams. This doesn't seem to be the case for many Northern teams (certainly the case at Nova but not at places like Delaware). Please correct me if I wrong/let me know what you think.

[boo]

It's no secret that Marist has been considered for membership in the past and individuals connected to the school itself have made public statements about its desire to join. I agree with you - I have never read a derogatory comment about the PL from a Marist poster (check the CAA boards and you'll see hundreds of them). In fact, beating Georgetown is a huge deal for Marist fans, as it should be. And Marist was kick away from beating Bucknell, which beat Holy Cross, etc . . . . xrolleyesx


I think Marist may have been in consideration when the MAAC finally folded their football conference. There were one or two references to the PL from the Marist AD while Marist was looking for a home for the football team. That has been settled now. No longer are there any mentions of future PL membership coming from Poughkeepsie. On this board, Marist is usually mentioned as an option for PL expansion by a fan of one PL team or another and then the rest of the PL fans jump in and start slamming Marist. None of these PL "expansion by Marist" comments are coming from Marist fans and we are not here supporting them. Yet, we get slammed by you guys over and over again through no fault of our own. I just wish that you PL fans would find another "potential target" and remove us from your considerations altogether. We're doing just fine without the PL and we really could do without the negative comments many of you feel obligated to hurl at us.

~~Boo

[Bogus Megapardus]

We're doing just fine without the PL

That's why Marist's OOC schedule is filled with PL schools. :) Seriously, This board is full of speculation by people like me who have no inside information and whose opinions mean nothing to decision-makers. xtwocentsx In other words, no one at the PL or at Marist could give a damn what we think. xnonono2x

I doubt that people will stop bantering about who might or might not be a good PL member. xblahblahx I can't recall reading here any specific negative comment about Marist as an institution. xscanx Even if there has been one, let's face it - the PL itself gets ridiculed and laughed at for its very existence by CAA posters all the time. xsmashx I can't imagine Marist has seen the sort of dress-down the PL gets all the time. xnottalkingx

I happen to like Marist very much as an institution. xbowx I feel badly some feel that the school is put down unfairly. xnonox Just imagine if you were a fan of 'Laugh-a-Lot College' - and drawing it in the playoffs is akin to 'a bye week.' xlmaox Just roll with it, and sling an arrow or two back once in a while. xnodx

[DetroitFlyer]

Georgetown to the PFL seems more likely than Marist to the PL. The PL is in a difficult spot. Years of trying to be the Ivy League, only to find out that there will always be just one Ivy League.... There are folks in the PFL that still think the PFL could be much more Ivy like. Ain't gonna happen, ever. There is now and will always be just one Ivy League.... Then they want to be competitive with "State U" only to find out that you cannot pretend to be the Ivy League and then run your programs like the big State U's. Frankly, the PFL has a great model. We basically follow the Ivy League approach without the difficulty of an AI. Still, most PFL schools attract top notch STUDENT/athletes. Many that the Ivy League or PL were not willing to take.... If the PL had any real leadership, they would adopt a PFL type model for football. Get rid of the AI, (stop pretending to be the Ivy League), offer need based and academic aid to students that happen to play football, schedule most OOC games against the Ivy League and PFL, and hope for a magical season every once in a while where the champ can make a Colgate like run in the playoffs. If simple logic prevailed, this would really be a no brainer....