I-AA vs Div II

[SoCon48]

What are feelings on the number of Division II schools who could compete with the top 25 I-AA schools?
I saw a comment on a another board saying there were "a lot" of D-II's who could compete with the top 25 of our division. I would be surprised to see evidence of this being the case. A handful at the most, or is my impression of I-AA inflated?

[UAalum72]

According to Ken Massey's ratings http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cf there are five D-II and one D-III ranked ahead of #25 I-AA NW La.

[ChickenMan]

The top DII schools may be able to compete in an individual game... vs the bottom half of 1AA's Top 25... just as the top 1AAs may be able to do the same with the bottom half of 1A's Top 25. But only in a one shot deal... as neither 1AA or DII has the depth to compete with the high division on a regular basis.

[GannonFan]

I wouldn't think more than the top 10 of DII could compete with the top 25 in IAA - mind you, not over a whole season, but in just one game. The whole season is too much of a grind with the limited scholarships to win consistently. But in just one game, certainly they can compete. The problem you'll have, though, is that there are very few games between the top of DII and the top of DIAA - Lock Haven's and Cheyney's represent some of the worst of DII (Cheyney may very well be the worst) but you see very few matchups including the Pittsburgh States, the North Alabama's of DII. I know Pittsburgh St was 1-1 in the 90's against IAA teams, losing a close game to E. Illinois (playoff team that year) and beating SW MS St the next year. There was a game played in the '90's between Youngstown (may have been #1 or at least top 5) and the top ranked team in DII, had Youngstown winning 10-9. There's the Montana loss a few years back to NDSU (DII at the time and not even the best team in DII). Like I said, in just a one game format, the top 10 of DII could be extremely competitve even against the top 25 in IAA.

[polsongrizz]

The top DII schools may be able to compete in an individual game... vs the bottom half of 1AA's Top 25... just as the top 1AAs may be able to do the same with the bottom half of 1A's Top 25. But only in a one shot deal... as neither 1AA or DII has the depth to compete with the high division on a regular basis.
Agreed CM...

[Paladin1aa]

We won a National title the year we beat D-II National Champ North Alabama. But they had cheated recruiting , were placed on NCAA probation and were loaded with I-A players from the SEC.

We also play D-II PSAC teams in the opener and its amazing how many go to the D-II play-offs. The GLIAC is the strongest D-II league and its champ would give most I-AAs a run for their money. A season's worth is another matter.

[bluehenbillk]

A few of the top D-2's could compete with the elite of 1-AA but as another poster said, playing a 1-AA schedule would wear most teams down. D-2 as a whole is much better than the 1-AA mid-majors, which are basically decent D-3 teams.

[Paladin1aa]

Thats correct. There is a match-up this year between D-III Wittenberg ( very good) vs I-AA ( non-scholly) Dayton,also very good for their division.

People are looking for a close game.

[The Gadfly]

I would have to say that the Blazers of Valdosta State could give the top 25 of I-AA a run for their $$$. But then again they probably can't even spell their names. :cool: Don't get me wrong, the school is pretty good, but the athletes are a whooooole different story. That goes for most D2 schools.

[ccujacket]

Considering half of Valdosta State seems to be guys who Bobby Bowden gave the boot, dadgummit. I'd say you're right.

[SoCon48]

UAalum72.

Don't know much about the Massey's credibility, but only 5 teams ahead of I-AA's 25th team doesn't seem too impressive and just a hypothetic ranking to boot.
Certainly a long way from justifying some kind of merger.

[Rabbitlivinginverm]

Here's my take...SDSU, a provisional D1aa school just finished their first year competing against D1aa schools. We got stomped by UC-Davis in our 1st game of the year 0-52 and later found out that there's no southern hospitality on Georgia Southern's football field (7-63).

Other than that we lost to Montana St. by a field goal, Cal-Poly by 7, beat NDSU, and beat Southern. We were an above average D2 team playing in one of the toughest D2 conferences (the NCC) against teams like NDSU, UND, UN-O, and UNC. Which I think has set us up pretty well to compete in D1aa.

I think some of the top D2 teams can compete against D1aa teams over the course of the year. Maybe 10-15 would finish .500 or better with 1 or 2 sneaking into the top 25 (see NDSU 2004 and UNC 2003). We competed pretty well last year with 38 grants and will compete this year with 42. NDSU finished in the top 25 with essentaily their d2 roster.

[Kill'em]

Here's my take...SDSU, a provisional D1aa school just finished their first year competing against D1aa schools. We got stomped by UC-Davis in our 1st game of the year 0-52 and later found out that there's no southern hospitality on Georgia Southern's football field (7-63).

Other than that we lost to Montana St. by a field goal, Cal-Poly by 7, beat NDSU, and beat Southern. We were an above average D2 team playing in one of the toughest D2 conferences (the NCC) against teams like NDSU, UND, UN-O, and UNC. Which I think has set us up pretty well to compete in D1aa.

I think some of the top D2 teams can compete against D1aa teams over the course of the year. Maybe 10-15 would finish .500 or better with 1 or sneaking into the top 25 (see NDSU 2004 and UNC 2003). We competed pretty well last year with 38 grants and will compete this year with 42. NDSU finished in the top 25 with essentaily their d2 roster.
Trust me, despite the score SDSU impressed me. Given time to adjust to I-AA and build depth, y'all will make some noise. Personally I do think Valdosta St and West GA would give most I-AA teams headaches.

[leatherneck177]

We nearly got beat by a D-II, Quincy University(IL) took us to wire as we won 31-26 or something like that. Admittedly, we were not one of the top teams in I-AA this year. However they tend to be either hit or miss as we also played Cheney, and beat them 96-7. I'm not sure on the score but we were over 90 points.

[bisonguy]

We won a National title the year we beat D-II National Champ North Alabama. But they had cheated recruiting , were placed on NCAA probation and were loaded with I-A players from the SEC.

We also play D-II PSAC teams in the opener and its amazing how many go to the D-II play-offs. The GLIAC is the strongest D-II league and its champ would give most I-AAs a run for their money. A season's worth is another matter.

The PSAC is a very weak DII conference. The thing with the DII playoffs, is that it's a different format than that of I-AA. There are four regions comprised of a set number of conferences. Each region gets four (actually, this upcoming year it increases to six) playoff spots based on a regional poll. There's also an "earned access rule", in which if a conference has a team ranked in the top 10 of the regional poll, they receive a playoff spot. Something along the lines of an autobid.

Many of the power conferences, such as the NCC (when NDSU, SDSU, and UNC were still members), the GLIAC, and the GSC could easily fill out the field for the region, but the selection committee always wanted all conferences to be represented.

For reference, NDSU beat the #11 ranked DII team in the final regular season poll, Carson Newman, by 30 points last year.

I would say normally the top 5, maybe 10 in a very good year, DII teams could hang with the #5- #25 ranked I-AA teams for one game. The talent level in DII decreases pretty fast after that.

[Rabbitlivinginverm]

We played 3 D2 teams last year

Winona St. 45-20 W finished #8 in D2 football.com poll
Western Oregon 38-3 W
Augustana College 38-9 W

While Augie and Western Oregon were pretty bad, Winona St. finished 10-2 with a loss to us and then a loss to Grand Valley St. in the first round of the playoffs (13-16). Hopefully, we won't have any D2 teams on our schedule in the next couple of years...

[Rabbitlivinginverm]

[QUOTE=bisonguy

I would say normally the top 5, maybe 10 in a very good year, DII teams could hang with the #5- #25 ranked I-AA teams for one game. The talent level in DII decreases pretty fast after that.[/QUOTE]

Hit the nail right on the head.

[JohnStOnge]

I don't think it's nearly as great as that between I-A and I-AA. I think the average DII team is a lot closer to the average I-AA and the top D-II teams are WAY closer (sometimes maybe even better than) the top teams in I-AA.

I like power ratings but I know some don't so I'll just mention some examples of games between top teams from the two Divisions that I think kind of support what I'm saying.

Most recent thing I'm thinking of is what happened to some I-AA playoff teams playing solid D-IIs in 2003. Montana was beaten by North Dakota State...which didn't make the D-II tourney. Eventual I-AA semifinalist Florida Atlantic was pistol whipped 45-17 by Valdosta State...which went on to lose in the second round of the D-II playoffs. Another loss by a I-AA playoff team wasn't quite as notable because of the weakness of the OVC but Jacksonville State was pretty soundly beaten (28-16) by North Alabama...which I believe went to the D-II dance but didn't last long.

Then I always harken back to the 1994 game between eventual I-AA national champ Youngstown State and eventual D-II champ North Alabama...which the Penguins won by only 17-14. And that was Youngstown State's best team of its dominant era. Of course it was also a time when North Alabama was in the midst of winning three straight D-II titles.

All in all, though, that kind of stuff is why it frosts me that the I-AA playoff committee automatically counts a D-II game as a game against a weak opponent. I've said stuff like this before but...last year playing Valdosta State or Pittsburgh State would've meant playing somebody equivalent to a playoff-caliber I-AA squad and certainly a lot tougher than...say...the team McNeese had last season. I think both of those teams in the D-II title game would've had a shot at beating anybody in I-AA. And I mean pretty close to a 50:50 shot of beating the best in the "higher" division.

[yomama]

What are feelings on the number of Division II schools who could compete with the top 25 I-AA schools?

If D-IIs are allowed to come up to 63 scholarships, as suggested by proponents of an "alliance" system, some would compete very well.

Others wouldn't compete well at all.

I could've said the same things about many schools that actually reclassified from D-II to I-AA over the years.

[blur2005]

Hopefully, we won't have any D2 teams on our schedule in the next couple of years...

Yeah...same goes for JMU...as in why don't we just buy out the deal with Lock Haven? I think we only have to play them this year and then it's done, but bringing in another crappy I-AA team like Del. St. would be more effective, and plus it would actually count.

[JBB]

NDSU crushed Carson Newman last season. CN went deep into the DII playoffs and the BISON played them in midseason. Of course some DII teams will get the upset, but thats what it is, an upset.

[Husky Alum]

To quote our Youngstown poster..

"We won a National title the year we beat D-II National Champ North Alabama. But they had cheated recruiting , were placed on NCAA probation and were loaded with I-A players from the SEC."

Um, I think after what's been revealed about Coach Tressel's affairs at YSU in the recent past, the Youngstown faithful should be among the LAST to accuse someone of cheating.

Let he among us without sin be the first to condemn, right??? ;) ;)

Anyway, I think both Villanova and UConn lost to New Haven in the late 1990s.

[Flintstone]

"...last year playing Valdosta State or Pittsburgh State would've meant playing somebody equivalent to a playoff-caliber I-AA squad"

I watched the DII championship game last year and in my opinion, there is no way either of those teams would have done squat against Cal Poly who didn't even make the playoffs last year.

[lucchesicourt]

I agree that the top D2's could compete with some of the top D1AA's, but the top D2's have been moving to D1AA, so the overall quality of D2 is dropping. Thus, as this continues there will be fewer quality D2's as they will lack the level of competition that existed before teams like UC Davis, NDSU, SDSU, UNC, etc. left D2. As the quality declines they lose a yardstick of exactly where they need to be good enough to compete against the upper divisions. I also, tend to disagree somewhat about the number of scholarships necessary to be competetive. UCD has been competetitive without scholarships and with fewer scholarships than the teams they have played at the D1AA. I believe to date, UCD has been out scholarshipped on the dield in every game they have played except against maybe some D2's and still have an overall winning record. Though not all the D1AA'a they have played are over probation. This year will be the first real test for the Aggies, with their limited number of schollies so far. We will go into every game out schollied and will be competing against many full schollied teams. So, if you wonder how good the top D2 teams were a few years ago, look at NDSU and their record, and then ask NDSU how good was GVSU and UCD (who basically had no schollies).
I see D2 becoming more like D3 as the top teams keep moving up.

[SoCon48]

..and SOME good I-AA's have moved on to I-A.

Where have the D2's OF RECENT who moved to I-AA ended up in the I-AA rankings?
Case in point, Elon ( a national D2 champion/near national champion, I believe??) drags the bottom of I-AA.

[bisonguy]

..and SOME good I-AA's have moved on to I-A.

Where have the D2's OF RECENT who moved to I-AA ended up in the I-AA rankings?
Case in point, Elon ( a national D2 champion/near national champion, I believe??) drags the bottom of I-AA.

Here's a listing of all DII playoff teams for the history of the division- http://www.bisonville.com/d2playoffbyname.html

I don't even see Elon's name on there for making the DII playoffs once.

[lucchesicourt]

UC Davis has NEVER played Elon at any time and we may have been in the playoffs more often than any other of the D2 teams (NDSU may be right there with us), I have never even seen Elon in the D2 rankings since 1977.

[GannonFan]

..and SOME good I-AA's have moved on to I-A.

Where have the D2's OF RECENT who moved to I-AA ended up in the I-AA rankings?
Case in point, Elon ( a national D2 champion/near national champion, I believe??) drags the bottom of I-AA.

I'll disregard the Elon reference as the past few posts have shown that to be made up. Of recent (and that's a tough criteria to get through as there's not tons of teams moving up each year) didn't North Dakota St, just last year in their first year in IAA after moving up from DII, finish in the top 25?

Besides, the main point that people have made isn't that DII's could hang with IAA's all year, but that the top teams in DII, in a single game, could and have competed relatively well against the best in IAA.

[lucchesicourt]

I'll agree with you that the top D2's could hang with some of the better D1AA's in a single game, but the top D2's lack the depth that D1AA's possess. So, over the long season the top D1AA's would beat out the top D2's. UC Davis coach, Bob Biggs, said that is the biggest difference he's seen since the move to D1AA

[DaBears]

I think UNC is a good example of how depth comes into issue. Their first year they went 9-2 but only played like 6 D-IAA teams. They had a lot of time to rest when they played the easy D-II's.Then last year with a full D-IAA schedule, we got smoked. A lot of it, I think, was the fact that there wasn't depth--especially on the o-line and the o-line wasn't that good to begin with but the constant pounding against top competition got to them.

[Marcus Garvey]

The PSAC is a very weak DII conference.

Whoa there partner? Are you sure you got your D-II conferences right? The PSAC isn't the strongest conference, but it certainly isn't the weakest either. Although no school from the conference has one a title, they've put teams in the semi-finals and finals several times. I'd classify them as "better-than-average." They do have some of the worst programs in D-II though, specifically Cheyney, Mansfield and Lock Haven. But with 14 teams, that's bound to happen.

Now, if you had said the Northeast-10, I'd agree with you 100% on that. I don't believe they're members award scholarships. They're just a D-III league on small does of steroids.

[bisonguy]

Whoa there partner? Are you sure you got your D-II conferences right? The PSAC isn't the strongest conference, but it certainly isn't the weakest either. Although no school from the conference has one a title, they've put teams in the semi-finals and finals several times. I'd classify them as "better-than-average." They do have some of the worst programs in D-II though, specifically Cheyney, Mansfield and Lock Haven. But with 14 teams, that's bound to happen.

Now, if you had said the Northeast-10, I'd agree with you 100% on that. I don't believe they're members award scholarships. They're just a D-III league on small does of steroids.

Honestly, I was thinking of the NE-10. :o

I would classify the PSAC as a second-tier conference in DII, along the lines of the SAC. Not quite as good overall as the GSC or GLIAC, but better than conferences like the NSIC or RMAC.