LFN: Still Mad About Losing Hofstra Football

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2009/12/still-mad-about-losing-hofstra-football.html

Some additional thoughts about Hofstra losing football, with some additional real facts to (hopefully) counterweight the BS that's been thrown around by the president on the matter.

A bit wild-eyed, but I still continue to believe that a grave injustice has been done at Hofstra. This isn't like St. Peters or Iona discontinuing football. This is something else entirely.

[Dane96]

Very good job.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Rabinowitz pulled the plug without telling the players or coaches. Just the night before, some of the coaches were out recruiting for the upcoming season. Two and a half weeks of wasted time and money by head coach Dave Cohen, the staff, and others, who could have been looking for jobs with other football schools - not to mention to give players some real time to weigh their options. The players and coaches were treated like trash by the college president.

xbawlingx

[henfan]

Chuck, we don't usually see eye-to-eye on much but, man, great piece!xthumbsupx

[blukeys]

Chuck the more I learn about this the madder I get. Rabinowitz had an agenda to screw Hofstra football and in a sneaky and underhanded way he did it. His behavior is disgusting and if allowed to go unchecked gives license to any academic football opponent to do the same thing at any number of Northeast Schools.

What can we do ???

Would a day long demonstation in Long Island that included Hofstra fans and FCS fans get some needed publicity and consideration of a re-vote of the Board of Trustees.

I need some help from Hofstra folks on this.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There is a guy who organized a press conference yesterday on the matter:

http://gothamgr.com/save-hofstra-football/

Here's a 7 Eyewitness news report on the event (admittedly, not the greatest report by the sleepy-looking news bunny, but it did make the broadcast):

http://gothamgr.com/video-hofstra-almuni-on-end-of-football-program/

[Bogus Megapardus]

LFN - am I correct in interpreting Dr. Rabinowitz's words as suggesting that colleges that spend significant sums on FCS football, without realizing a calculable dollar-for-dollar ROI, are somehow unwise or foolish? That certainly seems to disparage the very institutions he wishes for Hofstra to emulate, does it not? Or is he just smarter than they are?

[Seawolf97]

Outstanding article !

[Wildcat80]

Amazing the decisions that are made in secret!!?? If I was a contributor I would be MAD!! Hard to reverse after you fire coaches and get players transferring. College Boards are such wusses.

[ngineer]

Great article Chuck. Rabinowitz is a dip****z. I find it amazing how people can treat others so cavalierly.xsmhx

[Redwyn]

Well done!

[carney2]

Sorry, LFN, but this is much ado about nothing. We are looking at the tip of the iceberg. Over the next 20 years we will see much more of this and we will look back and see that it started with Iona and LaSalle and then moved to Northeastern and Hofstra, and then...

Personally, I think that your considerable intellectual abilities and journalistic skills would be better spent contemplating the future of college football than ranting over this single bottle of spilled milk. Society, the American educational institution, undergraduates, economics, and college football in general are all changing in a way that could create a firestorm that sweeps away all but the healthiest of these athletic behemoths. Where is the reporting on this?

[Mountaineer#96]

At least the Northern FCS schools can pick up more talent off this and maybe keep their programs going longer since from what a lot of people have said on here North Eastern US is more NFL savvy.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Sorry, LFN, but this is much ado about nothing. We are looking at the tip of the iceberg. Over the next 20 years we will see much more of this and we will look back and see that it started with Iona and LaSalle and then moved to Northeastern and Hofstra, and then...

Personally, I think that your considerable intellectual abilities and journalistic skills would be better spent contemplating the future of college football than ranting over this single bottle of spilled milk. Society, the American educational institution, undergraduates, economics, and college football in general are all changing in a way that could create a firestorm that sweeps away all but the healthiest of these athletic behemoths. Where is the reporting on this?

An interesting reaction - something I expect from you, carney.

Of course, if you are right: "Over the next 20 years we will see much more of this and we will look back and see that it started with Iona and LaSalle and then moved to Northeastern and Hofstra, and then..." then we might as well assume FCS is doomed and anyone who wants a college football program ought to prepare the way to either play with the big boys of FBS or drop to D-III. This is all, of course, based on the fallacy that college football is a "business" that exists to "make money" and has no educational value of its own.

What I do know is: if dictatorial college presidents are simply allowed to pull the plug to secure another ivory backscratcher for them in retirement (see: Silber, John, and the assassination of BU football), then we are indeed doomed. But I think (hope?) that doesn't have to be the case.

[DFW HOYA]

A larger issue is the viability of Northeastern colleges, not just football.

Over the next 20 years, consider these demographic changes:

1. By 2030, 64% of Americans will live in the south or west, concentrated in just three states: California, Texas and Florida (108 million people). More people will live in Texas than NJ and PA combined.

2. Over 20% of the populations in NY, NJ, and PA will be 65 or over. The Sun Belt? Less than 15%. Fewer kids growing up, higher social services spending.

3. By 2030, Hispanics will account for 29% of the general population, up from 8%. The "white" (however you define it) share of the population will have dropped from 85% in 1960 to 47%. The Pew Institute estimates only two-thirds of Hispanic high school graduates will pusue a four year college, and few will go outside their home state...which for millions of folks won't be PA, NY, or NJ.

(This doesn't even address the cost of living estimates that will price a year of tuition at a private university at over $110,000 by 2030, $40,000 for state schools.)

How does your college change under these parameters? Will there be enough traditional 18 year old students to go around that want to study in the middle of Pennsylvania instead of staying in Austin and Tucson? So maybe Lehigh will always have a full admissions plate, even if there are more from much different backgrounds. But what about Moravian, Gettysburg, the PSAC's? The numbers suggest otherwise.

Is 2030 a long time away? It's as close as 1990 is today. Think about that one.

[Franks Tanks]

A larger issue is the viability of Northeastern colleges, not just football.

Over the next 20 years, consider these demographic changes:

1. By 2030, 64% of Americans will live in the south or west, concentrated in just three states: California, Texas and Florida (108 million people). More people will live in Texas than NJ and PA combined.

2. Over 20% of the populations in NY, NJ, and PA will be 65 or over. The Sun Belt? Less than 15%. Fewer kids growing up, higher social services spending.

3. By 2030, Hispanics will account for 29% of the general population, up from 8%. The "white" (however you define it) share of the population will have dropped from 85% in 1960 to 47%. The Pew Institute estimates only two-thirds of Hispanic high school graduates will pusue a four year college, and few will go outside their home state...which for millions of folks won't be PA, NY, or NJ.

(This doesn't even address the cost of living estimates that will price a year of tuition at a private university at over $110,000 by 2030, $40,000 for state schools.)

How does your college change under these parameters? Will there be enough traditional 18 year old students to go around that want to study in the middle of Pennsylvania instead of staying in Austin and Tucson? So maybe Lehigh will always have a full admissions plate, even if there are more from much different backgrounds. But what about Moravian, Gettysburg, the PSAC's? The numbers suggest otherwise.

Is 2030 a long time away? It's as close as 1990 is today. Think about that one.

And eventually Texas, Florida, and Cali will get so expensive and crowded that people will move back to the NE!

Southeast PA., NJ, NY, Conn are still growing.

Areas like Northeast PA are not declining as rapidly as in the past. Towns like Scranton lost half of their population from the boom years to the post war time.

Small, non-selective colleges like Wilkes or Albright and the like may have trouble sustaining themselves, but many of these schools are moving to more technical majors to attract students.

There will be plenty of good students who want to attend PL schools for decedes to come.

[OL FU]

A larger issue is the viability of Northeastern colleges, not just football.

Over the next 20 years, consider these demographic changes:

1. By 2030, 64% of Americans will live in the south or west, concentrated in just three states: California, Texas and Florida (108 million people). More people will live in Texas than NJ and PA combined.

2. Over 20% of the populations in NY, NJ, and PA will be 65 or over. The Sun Belt? Less than 15%. Fewer kids growing up, higher social services spending.

3. By 2030, Hispanics will account for 29% of the general population, up from 8%. The "white" (however you define it) share of the population will have dropped from 85% in 1960 to 47%. The Pew Institute estimates only two-thirds of Hispanic high school graduates will pusue a four year college, and few will go outside their home state...which for millions of folks won't be PA, NY, or NJ.

(This doesn't even address the cost of living estimates that will price a year of tuition at a private university at over $110,000 by 2030, $40,000 for state schools.)

How does your college change under these parameters? Will there be enough traditional 18 year old students to go around that want to study in the middle of Pennsylvania instead of staying in Austin and Tucson? So maybe Lehigh will always have a full admissions plate, even if there are more from much different backgrounds. But what about Moravian, Gettysburg, the PSAC's? The numbers suggest otherwise.

Is 2030 a long time away? It's as close as 1990 is today. Think about that one.


I can see it now. Como se dice? "Los Paladinos":o:)

[Dane96]

Is that "Southern" style Italian/Spanish mix?

;)

[OL FU]

Is that "Southern" style Italian/Spanish mix?

;)

Beats me, I don't do well at English:D I guess it could spanglishiano

I suppose I am not that upset at Hofstra because I am not that well acquainted with NE football. I hate it when any school drops my favorite sport and the way it was handled was one for the garbage cans. But if a school and its alumni don't really support football I am not sure I can blame them for the decision. I admit to stating that without the benefit of knowledge many have here. How big is Hofstra? 4000 a game is pretty darn small unless you are the size of Davidson.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

But if a school and its alumni don't really support football I am not sure I can blame them for the decision. I admit to stating that without the benefit of knowledge many have here. How big is Hofstra? 4000 a game is pretty darn small unless you are the size of Davidson.

If you are judging by attendance, 4,000 is in line with all the schools in the metro NYC area. It was more than Fordham, Columbia and Wagner, and slightly less than Stony Brook.

Support was there, in form of:

* corporate sponsorship (including Modell's Sporting Goods, a huge chain)
* alumni gifts (renovations targeted for Shuart Stadium and the football program, coming from an official Hofstra release)
* a $400,000 football endowment

Could it have been better? Yeah. But saying it was unsupported is a lie.

This was NOT about costs or even support. IMO.

[OL FU]

If you are judging by attendance, 4,000 is in line with all the schools in the metro NYC area. It was more than Fordham, Columbia and Wagner, and slightly less than Stony Brook.

Support was there, in form of:

* corporate sponsorship (including Modell's Sporting Goods, a huge chain)
* alumni gifts (renovations targeted for Shuart Stadium and the football program, coming from an official Hofstra release)
* a $400,000 football endowment

Could it have been better? Yeah. But saying it was unsupported is a lie.

This was NOT about costs or even support. IMO.

Well I wasn't lying. I just didn't know. :p

Not used to those type of numbers in FCS football down heah. :)

FUs attendance has been dropping. That is one of my concerns. Still at around 10,000 paid attendance though I don't think we had that many butts in the seats for most games. We used to consistenly be in the 12 to 14K range. xnodx

[Seawolf97]

Well I wasn't lying. I just didn't know. :p

Not used to those type of numbers in FCS football down heah. :)

FUs attendance has been dropping. That is one of my concerns. Still at around 10,000 paid attendance though I don't think we had that many butts in the seats for most games. We used to consistenly be in the 12 to 14K range. xnodx

People up here in the NYC Metro area literally have 100 choices every weekend of things to do . Everything from high school football, NFL NYC entertainment, local entertainment . You name it its here. FCS is relatively unknown outside of the people involved in the programs, students and maybe some alums. 4k at a home game is good for us on a clear day. Add rain or cold temps you could see 1700-1800 easily.

[OL FU]

People up here in the NYC Metro area literally have 100 choices every weekend of things to do . Everything from high school football, NFL NYC entertainment, local entertainment . You name it its here. FCS is relatively unknown outside of the people involved in the programs, students and maybe some alums. 4k at a home game is good for us on a clear day. Add rain or cold temps you could see 1700-1800 easily.

I have been to NYC about 200 times. Even had an apartment in mid town for about a year. I understand. Just hard to get used to.

[GaelsFootball]

wow...that was f***ing amazing...excuse my language but I have been trying to tell people here in New Rochelle how greedy these private school presidents are...By a school like Hofstra dropping their program it honestly makes the people here happy (and im sure at many other places). A women who works in the admississions department came up to me and had the balls to say to me, "see, it's not worth keeping football...it's just too expensive."

[Franks Tanks]

wow...that was f***ing amazing...excuse my language but I have been trying to tell people here in New Rochelle how greedy these private school presidents are...By a school like Hofstra dropping their program it honestly makes the people here happy (and im sure at many other places). A women who works in the admississions department came up to me and had the balls to say to me, "see, it's not worth keeping football...it's just too expensive."

Using the logic of that woman and some of the people at Hoftsra, it shouldnt be worth keeping any athletic team.

Does Iona B-ball make money? Probably not

[henfan]

Using the logic of that woman and some of the people at Hoftsra, it shouldnt be worth keeping any athletic team.

Wonder how much revenue librararies and art centers bring directly in to any school versus the amount of jack it takes to keep those suckers up-to-date and operating? Maybe they should be on the chopping block too?xrolleyesx

[carney2]

An interesting reaction - something I expect from you, carney.

Is that a zinger or have I escaped this once? Either way I hate being so predictable.

[The Historian]

Football is just starting to see what has been going on in many "minor" mens sports for decades. For example, wrestling, which is not an expensive sport, has gone from over 400 collegiate programs to under 200. This while wrestling has been growing at the high school level.

One consequence has been a significant decline in medals that the US has won in wrestling at the Olympics.

[carney2]

A larger issue is the viability of Northeastern colleges, not just football.

Over the next 20 years, consider these demographic changes:

1. By 2030, 64% of Americans will live in the south or west, concentrated in just three states: California, Texas and Florida (108 million people). More people will live in Texas than NJ and PA combined.

2. Over 20% of the populations in NY, NJ, and PA will be 65 or over. The Sun Belt? Less than 15%. Fewer kids growing up, higher social services spending.

3. By 2030, Hispanics will account for 29% of the general population, up from 8%. The "white" (however you define it) share of the population will have dropped from 85% in 1960 to 47%. The Pew Institute estimates only two-thirds of Hispanic high school graduates will pusue a four year college, and few will go outside their home state...which for millions of folks won't be PA, NY, or NJ.

(This doesn't even address the cost of living estimates that will price a year of tuition at a private university at over $110,000 by 2030, $40,000 for state schools.)

How does your college change under these parameters? Will there be enough traditional 18 year old students to go around that want to study in the middle of Pennsylvania instead of staying in Austin and Tucson? So maybe Lehigh will always have a full admissions plate, even if there are more from much different backgrounds. But what about Moravian, Gettysburg, the PSAC's? The numbers suggest otherwise.

Is 2030 a long time away? It's as close as 1990 is today. Think about that one.

It's probably just curmudgeonly ol' me, but this is the direction in which I would like to see some of these discussions move. Good job, DFW. We can rail against the system, but it is what it is. Football is indeed the most expensive of the athletic offerings, and with squad sizes approaching 100, it becomes the athletic department's 500 pound gorilla. You can say that football does not exist to make money, and is part of the larger educational experience, but the other side of that argument is "can the school get more bang for its bucks in this area?" And, it is a lot of bucks.

I am saying that we may very well be at the front end of a very painful process here and I would love to see it thoughtfully probed and explored. On this site - and on individual school sites where I have begun this discussion and get "not to worry, good old [fill in the school of your choice] will be OK" - I am preaching to the choir and running into a lot of people with either the blinders on or a view of the future that does not seem to extend beyond next season. You need to be conscious of more than your alma mater. If those around you begin to waver and die, your health is also threatened.

Unfortunately, LFN, the responsibility here rests with you and your peers. A few schlups like me, DFW, ngineer, cr, Pard94, or even the brilliant and erudite KenZ penning a few words in anonymity on one of these focused websites isn't going to get it done. We need people with a voice and access to begin defining the argument.

[colorless raider]

It's probably just curmudgeonly ol' me, but this is the direction in which I would like to see some of these discussions move. Good job, DFW. We can rail against the system, but it is what it is. Football is indeed the most expensive of the athletic offerings, and with squad sizes approaching 100, it becomes the athletic department's 500 pound gorilla. You can say that football does not exist to make money, and is part of the larger educational experience, but the other side of that argument is "can the school get more bang for its bucks in this area?" And, it is a lot of bucks.

I am saying that we may very well be at the front end of a very painful process here and I would love to see it thoughtfully probed and explored. On this site - and on individual school sites where I have begun this discussion and get "not to worry, good old [fill in the school of your choice] will be OK" - I am preaching to the choir and running into a lot of people with either the blinders on or a view of the future that does not seem to extend beyond next season. You need to be conscious of more than your alma mater. If those around you begin to waver and die, your health is also threatened.

Unfortunately, LFN, the responsibility here rests with you and your peers. A few schlups like me, DFW, ngineer, cr, Pard94, or even the brilliant and erudite KenZ penning a few words in anonymity on one of these focused websites isn't going to get it done. We need people with a voice and access to begin defining the argument.

The whole concept of "well rounded" is dead. Athletics are suffering at lower level schools but Mack Brown is getting $5 mil a year. The NCAA should be investigat ed along with the BCS.

[Fordham]

It's probably just curmudgeonly ol' me, but this is the direction in which I would like to see some of these discussions move. Good job, DFW. We can rail against the system, but it is what it is. Football is indeed the most expensive of the athletic offerings, and with squad sizes approaching 100, it becomes the athletic department's 500 pound gorilla. You can say that football does not exist to make money, and is part of the larger educational experience, but the other side of that argument is "can the school get more bang for its bucks in this area?" And, it is a lot of bucks.

I am saying that we may very well be at the front end of a very painful process here and I would love to see it thoughtfully probed and explored. On this site - and on individual school sites where I have begun this discussion and get "not to worry, good old [fill in the school of your choice] will be OK" - I am preaching to the choir and running into a lot of people with either the blinders on or a view of the future that does not seem to extend beyond next season. You need to be conscious of more than your alma mater. If those around you begin to waver and die, your health is also threatened.

Unfortunately, LFN, the responsibility here rests with you and your peers. A few schlups like me, DFW, ngineer, cr, Pard94, or even the brilliant and erudite KenZ penning a few words in anonymity on one of these focused websites isn't going to get it done. We need people with a voice and access to begin defining the argument.

I'm very much with carney on this overall. We're all very much closer to Hofstra than we are to being fully secure for the indefinite future. These are very much legit questions, if for no other reason than the supporters of the programs can know what it is that should be focused on to ensure viability.

As usual I'm interested in all the rabbit trails that could come out of a serious discussion on this topic. Off the top of my head:

*what's a significant attendance #? how many of those have to be students? how many season tickets need to be sold? i know these are very subjective but there has to be general consensus as to what 'signs of a thriving FCS program' are in terms of attendance. Curious as to people's thoughts on those #'s.

*we all have a pretty good handle on what goes into our program's expenses but other than season tickets, possible pay-game $$'s and any sponsorships, what goes else goes into the revenue side of things? Further, does your school clearly identify contributions earmarked for football and then "spend" them on football or to some general athletics fund? This is the part where you'd want to be able to provide specifics if your president threw up (word play intended) the same stuff that Hofstra's did when speaking of top line expenses as if they were nets in an effort to justify the cut.

... more to come but just wanted to throw my .02 on the side of carney in this discussion ... not so much for my love of the point he is making as much as the importance it carries for any FCS team in the northeast given what's taken place the past few weeks.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Here's a New York Times interview with Hofstra Athletic Director Jack Hayes. I'm trying to read between the lines.

Link (http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/11/quad-qa-hofstra-athletic-director-jack-hayes/)

[Uncle Buck]

Here's a New York Times interview with Hofstra Athletic Director Jack Hayes. I'm trying to read between the lines.

Link (http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/11/quad-qa-hofstra-athletic-director-jack-hayes/)

Notice how he never answered the question about whether or not he advocated for football? He is spineless and just as culpable as the two bit president who used some secret two year study of athletics to dupe the board of trustees into dismantling the HU football program.

Not even one iota of interest in doing anything to improve fan and student interest. The total cost, never mind any revenue at all was thrown around so the bullseye fell squarely between the eyes of football.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Notice how he never answered the question about whether or not he advocated for football? He is spineless and just as culpable as the two bit president who used some secret two year study of athletics to dupe the board of trustees into dismantling the HU football program.

Not even one iota of interest in doing anything to improve fan and student interest. The total cost, never mind any revenue at all was thrown around so the bullseye fell squarely between the eyes of football.

"As the president made clear, this was a reallocation of resources; it wasn’t an economic crisis."

[RichH2]

Football surely a business operation at USC et al. Should revenue-cost analysis be used at FCS. Answer only if you have already decided to cancel the program. Few if any sports at our level could survive such analysis. It presumes that sport has to be profitable to be sustainable. Lack of student support a valid reason to axe any activity IF TRUE. and it s/b considered in context of entire college community , ie alumni.

[blackcaesar3k5]

Hofstra was very competitive football program under coach Joe Gardi..

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Patriot League, yeah, that was another one that we had some conversations. It was more information gathering from the Patriot League about what do those programs offer in terms of funding to see if that was an opportunity to be competitive. Very exploratory conversations, but did not go any further than that.

xeyebrowx

Boy, there's some interesting stuff in here...

I find it interesting that the AD is distancing himself from the "costs" argument just a handful of days after I created this blog posting. Sort of.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Got the following comment on my blog that I thought was fascinating, and merits reprinting:


The actual operating expenses (after scholarships/salaries/etc.) is only $645,650. I can't believe the president and board were slimy enough to go through with this, and ignorant enough to think it would better the university, when a bit of actual investment in the program, and the experience, could have yielded significant results.

This commenter - who seems to have some extra information - seems to be saying that the only "savings" would be operating costs of just under $650,000. Not $4.5 million.

This "costs argument" seems to be crumbling everywhere, especially when you add to it the NYT interview on top of this.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Yesterday UNH played hoop at Hofstra so I ventured down to LI. Unbelievably, it was clear sailing over the Throgs Neck Bridge, only had one car ahead of mine going through the toll booth! xeekx Already upset about the demise of Hofstra Football, the gawds didn't pile on with awful traffic like I've experienced on other trips to Hofstra or Stony Brook. ;) :D

Mack Sports Complex holds 5,046, attendance in the box score listed at 2,687 which I thought was generous (or based on tickets sold) since the arena didn't look half full. And there were maybe 150 students in the end zone.

JMHO, but the community's support of the Flying Dutchmen's hoop program didn't appear much different than what the football team received. Now I recognize that UNH is hardly a draw in basketball, but I expected 4K for a 4:00 Saturday afternoon tip-off if the support of the hoop program was really better than football. I mean Hofstra has a pretty good team. Was everybody home watching Army-Navy or App-Montana on TV? :p Seriously, support for other athletic programs at Hofstra isn't significantly better than for football.

It was very sad driving by the parking lot east of Shuart Stadium knowing there won't be any more tailgating there. But it was offset with great memories of hanging out with Uncle Buck and Bull Fan as well as the OxSox Bachelor Party! xnodx

[GaelsFootball]

Something that I have not seen mentioned once in the media and I haven't seen any posts on here has been on my mind. It seems like a very strange coincidence that the Jets announce new practice facilities in Jersey and used SUNY Cortland, in upstate New York, as there pre season facility.
As a Jet season ticket holder I would always go to check a few practices every year. I would always wonder why they didn't promote Hofstra football by selling t-shirts or giving away free scheudles of their games.
Anyways, now that the Jets days in LI seem to be gone; another factor going through Hofstra had to of been the demand for good facilities is gone. I would assume this would be a huge revenue generator for Hofstra and keeping up with the current facilities without that generated income had to be a major factor in my opinion.

[ngineer]

Something that I have not seen mentioned once in the media and I haven't seen any posts on here has been on my mind. It seems like a very strange coincidence that the Jets announce new practice facilities in Jersey and used SUNY Cortland, in upstate New York, as there pre season facility.
As a Jet season ticket holder I would always go to check a few practices every year. I would always wonder why they didn't promote Hofstra football by selling t-shirts or giving away free scheudles of their games.
Anyways, now that the Jets days in LI seem to be gone; another factor going through Hofstra had to of been the demand for good facilities is gone. I would assume this would be a huge revenue generator for Hofstra and keeping up with the current facilities without that generated income had to be a major factor in my opinion.

Hofstra has a nice stadium, and if they're serious about lacrosse, then the stadium will have its purpose. Don't know much about their soccer..