Is the Patriot League holding its long-awaited meeting this week?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Once Lehigh turns the ship around completely their attendance numbers will go back up. The Lehigh Valley is a great football area and have always supported their teams, Lafayette included. Although i do believe Lehigh should always outdraw the 'Pards based on school size and a more central location in the Valley. This is assuming both have competitive teams of course.

[Sader87]

Outside of a few "hot beds" (Delaware, App St, Montana etc.) I think there's been a steady decline in interest/attendence overall in FCS football during the last decade. Maybe it's more pronounced in the Northeast due to competition with pro teams, TV, too many FCS games going on in roughly the same area etc but I really don't see attendence increasing overall for the FCS any time soon if ever again.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Personally, I think their choice to have three night games was a bit of mistake in terms of attendance.

Night games are designed to increase student attendance at games. Kids are used to Friday night high school games these days. Maybe they figure they'll give up a little in alumni attendance to gain an increased culture of campus participation. Can't argue with that.

One of the reasons the PL has better attendance numbers than other northeastern FCS schools is that our members are 99.9% residential; very few leave campus on the weekends. Lafayette's amazing stadium has been a huge boost, and Lehigh has been pretty consistent since Goodman was built. Also - I disagree with the notion that few students attend Lafayette games. You have to remember that the attendance is four or five times the size of the entire student body, which itself is incredible. I would wager, very unscientifically, that at a third or more of the student population attends the games. When I was there, I didn't know anyone who didn't go to the games.

[Franks Tanks]

Outside of a few "hot beds" (Delaware, App St, Montana etc.) I think there's been a steady decline in interest/attendence overall in FCS football during the last decade. Maybe it's more pronounced in the Northeast due to competition with pro teams, TV, too many FCS games going on in roughly the same area etc but I really don't see attendence increasing overall for the FCS any time soon if ever again.

The really big schools have increased interest but it seems like everyone else has declined.

I know a lot of people who went too D-II or D-III schools in PA, some of which had quality FB teams, but they would go to a Penn State game instead of their owns school.

These 20-30 huge programs are getting bigger, while all other teams, including lower level FBS teams- seem to suffer. I watched a Rice game this year that had about 8k people in the stands. They are located in a major city in a state that loves football. They are FBS with 85 scholarships and the stadium was empty.

Look at how bad Ivy attendance is getting, and they have been playing by the same rules and playing the same teams for years.

Army has been getting bad attendance as well.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Once Lehigh turns the ship around completely their attendance numbers will go back up. The Lehigh Valley is a great football area and have always supported their teams, Lafayette including. Although i do believe Lehigh should always outdraw the 'Pards based on school size and a more central location in the Valley. This is assuming both have competitive teams of course.

Goodman is much more accessible to local residents; it's near enough to the highway, it has more than ample parking, it's visible as a "destination," and local residents don't have to navigate a normally unfamiliar college campus to get there. Fisher is a gorgeous place once you get there (especially the "wow" effect as you walk in looking from the top down) but it's somewhat forbidding from the outside; it's on campus, it cannot be seen from outside the campus, and there is no parking lot whatsoever for the general public, let alone those without Markle passes. Where 8-10,000 people park on tiny college hill each weekend remains one of life's great unsolved scientific mysteries - but they do. I suspect that Georgetown will have the same challenges as Lafayette once MSF is completed and its capacity is increased.

[carney2]

For those who, like me, are having some trouble visualizing this discussion of attendance, here are the last 5 years for each Patriot League school, starting with 2009 and ending with 2005:

BUCKNELL: 3,018/2,438/3,999/4,568/4,425 Avg.=3,690

COLGATE: 4,642/5,473/4,290/3,493/5,155 Avg.=4,671

FORDHAM: 3,886/4,077/4,509/3,723/4,560 Avg.=4,151

GEORGETOWN: 2,511/2,112/2,570/2,016/2,193 Avg.=2,280

HOLY CROSS: 7,552/8,431/7,172/5,597/7,051 Avg.=7,161

LAFAYETTE: 8,289/9,766*/6,975/8,336*/5,563 Avg.=7,786

LEHIGH: 8,130*/7,542/9,853*/9,160/10,656* Avg.=9,068

*Includes Lafayette-Lehigh sellout.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Colgate is the killer. If they were located anywhere other than the hinterlands they'd be much better.

Lehigh's attendance has been decent considering they've had 3 straight losing seasons. They just need to win and they'll break 10k again even without Lafayette. There've drawn 15k for Colgate and Bucknell in the past.

Holy Cross and Lafayette are both good given the size of their schools. They could improve some i suppose. A 10k season would be impressive for either school.

Fordham i think has a limit and some won't acknowledge that. The only people they are going to attract are those that went to Fordham or have a close to tie the university in some way. Even if they played a CAA schedule i doubt they would break 6500.

Bucknell is a little too rural and has to compete with Penn State. Bucknell has never drawn well for as long as i can remember. Still with a winner they could get 6-7k average.

Georgetown is what it is. Until the school fully supports the program people will fail to do so as well.

[UAalum72]

Looks like attendance is down across the board.

In 1998 36 schools averaged over 10k

in 2008 30 schools averaged over 10
Four of those 36 have gone I-A in the meantime.

Even so, I-AA attendance averaged 8,805 in 1998, 8,823 in 2008.

Noticed Princeton averaged 22K in 1998 (stadium was almost new) now only 8,178 in 2009.

[Franks Tanks]

Four of those 36 have gone I-A in the meantime.

Even so, I-AA attendance averaged 8,805 in 1998, 8,823 in 2008.

Noticed Princeton averaged 22K in 1998 (stadium was almost new) now only 8,178 in 2009.

Point taken.

The Ivies are a good place to look as they are the ultimate constant in this experiment.

Virtually the same schedules, same stadiums, same league structure etc. over the years.

Their attendance is way down

[Go...gate]

Four of those 36 have gone I-A in the meantime.

Even so, I-AA attendance averaged 8,805 in 1998, 8,823 in 2008.

Noticed Princeton averaged 22K in 1998 (stadium was almost new) now only 8,178 in 2009.

That first year was a real fluke. Nearly 30,000 at the opener against Cornell and about 20,000 at all the subsequent home games; everybody wanted to see the place, which is still the nicest stadium in FCS.

[Sader87]

Ivy League football attendence has PLUMMETED in the last 25-30 years. I was looking at a book about football in the Ivy League published in the early 80's of my father's recently...was taken aback a bit by the size of the crowds of "non-rivalry/mid-season games" of Dartmouth@Harvard and Princeton@Yale from 1978 or so...both games were easily in excess of 30,000.

[Go...gate]

Princeton's last large crowd, other than the 1998 opener at the new stadium, was about 39,500 vs. Yale in 1989 when the Ivy championship was on the line. There was another crowd of about 30,000 vs. Dartmouth in 1992 in another championship game. Nothing close since.

It's sad, because I'm old enough to remember when Princeton regularly drew 40,000 + for Rutgers and most Big Three games and a small crowd at Palmer was 22-24,000 for Brown, Columbia. Even Colgate drew well, because then, as now, they had a good percentage of their student body from NJ.

[Sader87]

Apropos of mostly nothing, Colgate @ Holy Cross in 1983, one of the best games of the 80's at Fitton...a 21-18 Sader come from behind victory over the then #2 Red Raiders at the time, had a crowd of 22,000+.

[carney2]

Just for the sake of comparison, I looked at the last 2 national champions, both private universities located in the east. Here is their average attendance for the 4 years 2005-2008:

Villanova 8,798

Richmond 6,738

I'm not sure what this means, if anything. Does it, for instance, mean that, other than the large state universities, FCS football is struggling at the gate even when the programs are successful? Or, does it mean, that the better supported Patriot League programs are doing as well at the gate as some of the most successful programs in the country? Very confusing, BUT I am not terribly encouraged by average attendance in the 3,000-9,000 range overall. It will not be difficult for cost cutting, faculty pandering administrators to portray those numbers as a "problem" when compared to the millions it takes to create them.

[colorless raider]

Apropos of mostly nothing, Colgate @ Holy Cross in 1983, one of the best games of the 80's at Fitton...a 21-18 Sader come from behind victory over the then #2 Red Raiders at the time, had a crowd of 22,000+.

I was there, a great game. Eugene Robinson broke his arm and that hurt us. Erenberg was great and Finnerty was great for Holy Cross. I seem to remember a substitute qb came in to win the game for the Cross.

[henfan]

Not sure what the overall attendance numbers were for 2009 yet, but 2008 was the 3rd highest all time for the FCS, dating back to 1978.
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/ncaa?key=/ncaa/ncaa/ncaa+news/ncaa+news+online/2009/association-wide/football_attendance_continues_to_rise_amid_economi c_uncertainty_02_11_09_ncaa_news

[DFW HOYA]

It's sad, because I'm old enough to remember when Princeton regularly drew 40,000 + for Rutgers and most Big Three games and a small crowd at Palmer was 22-24,000 for Brown, Columbia. Even Colgate drew well, because then, as now, they had a good percentage of their student body from NJ.

That's an important point--the Ivy student body of the 1960's and early 1970's was very much a NJ.NY/New England base, so families could drive up to campus. In the quest for geographic diversity, today's Ivy families may not be within the same time zone of these schools, and with fewer local kids going there, locals focus on where the next generation is attending, places like UConn, Rutgers, et al.

[UAalum72]

I was trying to find actual numbers on historic Ivy attendance, but the best I saw was that Penn averaged 70,000 in 1946 and 55,000 in 1948, but by the time the Ivy League became I-AA in 1981 the average for the conference was about 13,000, which has now declined to under 10K.

And the Ivy schedules have undergone a similar erosion; while they still played some I-A teams into the mid-80s, they don't play many FCS scholarship teams outside the Northeast any more.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

I was trying to find actual numbers on historic Ivy attendance, but the best I saw was that Penn averaged 70,000 in 1946 and 55,000 in 1948, but by the time the Ivy League became I-AA in 1981 the average for the conference was about 13,000, which has now declined to under 10K.

And the Ivy schedules have undergone a similar erosion; while they still played some I-A teams into the mid-80s, they don't play many FCS scholarship teams outside the Northeast any more.

Great numbers, thanks.

But I have to think that much of the numbers are the result of advances in technology. Attendance numbers have dropped in most places since there is so much else to do...including having a television in the house. You once had an option to GO to a Penn game to see football. Not long after WWII, you could catch a game on TV and not have to travel to a location, sit in the cold. Fast forward to the 90's and 2000's and you can watch football at the pro or college level 6 days a week.

It seems like something people want to make fun of but Asst. coach Paterno thinks the BCS should be decided by a 3rd factor: graduation rate/academics. If that was the case, you'd see the numbers high for the Ivies since they would in fact be competing at the same level.

[Bogus Megapardus]

the BCS should be decided by a 3rd factor: graduation rate/academics. If that was the case, you'd see the numbers high for the Ivies since they would in fact be competing at the same level.

Yessssss!!!! We could be contendahs!

[Bogus Megapardus]

BCS should be decided by a 3rd factor: graduation rate/academics.


Yessssss!!!! We could be contendahs!


"The new BCS ratings would include a third component to rank the teams. While computer polls and human polls make up the current rankings, my new BCS poll would utilize those rankings as 2/3 of the equation while adding the graduation rates of the top 25 BCS schools into the formula to come up with a complete ranking.

A perfect BCS rating is 1.000, and a perfect graduation rate of 100 percent would be given a value of 1.000 and then halved to make a perfect score worth .500. This weighting of the graduation rate would then be 1/3 of the equation."

Link (http://www.statecollege.com/news/columns/there-is-no-a-in-bcs,291369/)

[the last indian]

One can not really claim a cause and effect relationship, but there appears to be an interesting correlation between Ivy League attendance and the perceived quality or stature of their football programs. It would suggest to me that the PL must adopt scholarships or continue to lose student and alumni interest resulting in even smaller crowds at games.
I believe that that would be sad for the overall college environment, sense of community and level of support for the schools to lose the fun, the thrill, the comradeship that these game can provide.

[Bogus Megapardus]

As I watched the Bowl games this week, I listened to sportscasters babble on about high school students' expectation of BCS scholarships and how many offers each player received. There was a general disdain in their voices about unnecessary NCAA eligibility restrictions. Students clammor for BCS scholarships, not "FBS" or, as they used to say, "Division 1" scholarships. What really got me was the chagrin expressed about a school's shameful delegation to a "non-BCS Bowl." In the minds of the media, BCS is college football. "Non-BCS" is the new "just a 1-AA/FCS school" derogatory swipe.

"BCS" is now a brand name the the the ESPN people have been taught to use - and to use distinguishable from "NCAA" and from "Division 1" in particular. Perhaps we truly are looking at a final split between the BCS and the NCAA, where college football will become the BCS, and everyone else. I wonder how that will change the landscape.

One thing's for sure, ESPN shouldn't be permitted to call it "college football" any longer. They'll have to think of a new name.

[Sader87]

Interesting point Bogus. I think (per usual) you're on the right track. The non BCS leagues (MAC, Sun Belt, C-USA etc) are much closer to the top third or so of the FCS than they are to the BCS schools in many ways right now: competitiveness, attendence, media following etc.

It will be interesting to see how this "shakes out" in the next 5-10 years.

[Fordham]

I agree that it's a very interesting post Bogus.

It will really be interesting to see how these recent lawsuits shake out regarding the NCAA getting paid for using the athletes' likenesses in video games, etc. without giving them any compensation for it. As NCAA athletics has become a billion dollar industry it's no longer good enough to simply say that an athlete receives a free education as good enough compensation imo. Will be interesting to see if there will become a pro college league and an amateur one in the future as well.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I agree that it's a very interesting post Bogus.

It will really be interesting to see how these recent lawsuits shake out regarding the NCAA getting paid for using the athletes' likenesses in video games, etc. without giving them any compensation for it. As NCAA athletics has become a billion dollar industry it's no longer good enough to simply say that an athlete receives a free education as good enough compensation imo. Will be interesting to see if there will become a pro college league and an amateur one in the future as well.

Baseball.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As I watched the Bowl games this week, I listened to sportscasters babble on about high school students' expectation of BCS scholarships and how many offers each player received. There was a general disdain in their voices about unnecessary NCAA eligibility restrictions. Students clammor for BCS scholarships, not "FBS" or, as they used to say, "Division 1" scholarships. What really got me was the chagrin expressed about a school's shameful delegation to a "non-BCS Bowl." In the minds of the media, BCS is college football. "Non-BCS" is the new "just a 1-AA/FCS school" derogatory swipe.

"BCS" is now a brand name the the the ESPN people have been taught to use - and to use distinguishable from "NCAA" and from "Division 1" in particular. Perhaps we truly are looking at a final split between the BCS and the NCAA, where college football will become the BCS, and everyone else. I wonder how that will change the landscape.

One thing's for sure, ESPN shouldn't be permitted to call it "college football" any longer. They'll have to think of a new name.

Remember too, there is a "BCS Championship", which is different from the "NCAA Championship" but, confusingly, reported as a "national championship game".

There is a genuine creeping worry that the BCS conferences will form their own athletic league and separate from the NCAA entirely, taking the NCAA basketball tournament with them. So it's not just an issue of football; it's a potential issue of all of athletics fissuring.

You also have to look at - incredibly - Congress about this as well. There have been some high-profile congresspeople fighting the BCS to get their non-BCS schools a piece of that pie (notably Utah, who has two pretty good non-BCS football teams in their midst). The BCS is getting attacked on a lot of fronts; so I don't feel like the BCS is going to separate any time soon. More likely, they'll be forced to invite more people into the football party.

[ngineer]

Wow, this thread has certainly meandered off course in the past 21 days!..Unless the PL is thinking of going 'big time' and join up with the MAC.;)xrotatehx

[Bogus Megapardus]

Wow, this thread has certainly meandered off course in the past 21 days!..Unless the PL is thinking of going 'big time' and join up with the MAC.;)xrotatehx

Not the MAC, but I'd not be adverse to giving Northwestern, Vanderbilt and Rice a call . . . xrolleyesx

[Sader87]

Wow, this thread has certainly meandered off course in the past 21 days!..Unless the PL is thinking of going 'big time' and join up with the MAC.;)xrotatehx

Didn't Army already join the MAC in football? xcoffeex

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Remember too, there is a "BCS Championship", which is different from the "NCAA Championship" but, confusingly, reported as a "national championship game".

There is a genuine creeping worry that the BCS conferences will form their own athletic league and separate from the NCAA entirely, taking the NCAA basketball tournament with them. So it's not just an issue of football; it's a potential issue of all of athletics fissuring.

You also have to look at - incredibly - Congress about this as well. There have been some high-profile congresspeople fighting the BCS to get their non-BCS schools a piece of that pie (notably Utah, who has two pretty good non-BCS football teams in their midst). The BCS is getting attacked on a lot of fronts; so I don't feel like the BCS is going to separate any time soon. More likely, they'll be forced to invite more people into the football party.

So true. Lawmakers think they're doing something to help but face it, "BCS Championship" or "national championship" is semantics...it means nothing. Nobody is going to confuse Texas vs Alabama for Villanova vs Montana.

What congress needed to do was take an initial stand: no public funding for the universities in a state unless all schools in that state playing at the FBS level have an equal shot at a BCs game of an even split by all members in FBS regardless of conference.

The threat of the BCS schools leaving the NCAA would be neutralized by doing this. In the end, the government gives the BCS schools more money than the BCS sponsors.

[bison137]

Didn't Army already join the MAC in football? xcoffeex


No.

In fact some Army folks want them to cut back on the MAC opponents due to some questionable refereeing they've seen in games with MAC teams.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

No.

In fact some Army folks want them to cut back on the MAC opponents due to some questionable refereeing they've seen in games with MAC teams.

Army was in Conference USA a few years ago.

[Sader87]

No.

In fact some Army folks want them to cut back on the MAC opponents due to some questionable refereeing they've seen in games with MAC teams.

I was being facetious...since dropping out of C-USA, Army has played a very MAC-laden schedule every year.

Just a gripe of mine that Army (and Navy) will not play any PL schools in football (and yes, I know those games wouldn't count toward "bowl eligibility").

[ngineer]

Not the MAC, but I'd not be adverse to giving Northwestern, Vanderbilt and Rice a call . . . xrolleyesx

No question that if the PL went to scholarships a few games with those 'big time' schools who still stress academics would be cool. In fact you could put together a heck of a conference with Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt, Stanford, Duke, Virginia along with Richmond, William & Mary, Army, Navy and Air Force.

[jimbo65]

I was being facetious...since dropping out of C-USA, Army has played a very MAC-laden schedule every year.

Just a gripe of mine that Army (and Navy) will not play any PL schools in football (and yes, I know those games wouldn't count toward "bowl eligibility").


Army & Navy have scheduled Fordham down the road a few years. However, as you point out, that will be when the Fordham schollies make the games "bowl eligible". Perhaps another reason for the PL to move to scholarships.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I believe that Lafayette is Army's most-played FCS opponent. Maybe that will count for something going forward. I used to love those games.

[TheValleyRaider]

Army & Navy have scheduled Fordham down the road a few years. However, as you point out, that will be when the Fordham schollies make the games "bowl eligible". Perhaps another reason for the PL to move to scholarships.

Colgate has a game at Air Force for 2013, and very nearly had a game at TCU for 2014 (or sometime around there, I think)

Games with the service academies can happen, even without being a counter, though AF and TCU are for more secure in their ability to become bowl eligible than Army xtwocentsx

[Sader87]

I believe that Lafayette is Army's most-played FCS opponent. Maybe that will count for something going forward. I used to love those games.

Harvard and Yale have played Army the most of the current FCS schools, but most of those games were before 1950.

Colgate, Holy Cross and then Lafayette have played Army the most often and consistently since 1950..... Holy Cross the most from 1970-1994.

The HC-Army rivalry from the 70's to the early 90's was actually one of the best in the East....always a sell-out at Michie and most always very competitive games.


http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_ia/independents/army/opponents.php

[Bogus Megapardus]

Harvard and Yale have played Army the most of the current FCS schools, but most of those games were before 1950.

Colgate, Holy Cross and then Lafayette have played Army the most often and consistently since 1950..... Holy Cross the most from 1970-1994.

The HC-Army rivalry from the 70's to the early 90's was actually one of the best in the East....always a sell-out at Michie and most always very competitive games.


http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_ia/independents/army/opponents.php

I think I got that from the Army game notes (vs. VMI) where Army said "Lafayette has been Army’s most common FCS opponent." I wonder why they would say that if it is not in fact true?


EDIT:

OK, now I get why. Here's what Army wrote:

"ARMY VS. THE FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP SUBDIVISION

• Prior to the 2007 season, the NCAA enacted new nomenclature to differentiate between the different
levels of Divison I football. What was formerly knows as Division I-A is now called the Football Bowl
Subdivision (FBS). Division I-AA is now known as the Football Championship Subdivision (FCS).

• The divisions split in 1978. Since that time, the Black Knights have played 59 games against the FCS,
accumulating a 48-10-1 record. Lafayette has been Army’s most common FCS opponent. The two
teams have played 12 times since 1978 with Army winning 11 times.

• Army played at least one game against an FCS school from 1978-97. The schedule was solely FBS
squads from 1999-2001 before the 2002 team opened against Holy Cross.

• The VMI game will mark the fifth consecutive year the Black Knights have played an FCS squad. Army
defeated UMass (27-24) in 2005, VMI (62-7) in 2006 and Rhode Island (14-7, OT) in 2007. New
Hampshire scored a 28-10 victory at Michie Stadium in 2008."

[Sader87]

I guess semantically HC was 1-A when it played Army from 1966 to 1981 though there was really no huge difference in the schedule HC played in say 1974 and 1984. In many ways the 1-AA HC teams of the 80's were much better than the 1-A teams of the 70's.

Getting back to Army (of course, all due respect to the players there), they are loathe to admit it but they are much better off playing say HC, Colgate or Lafayette twice a year than play an Eastern Michigan and Louisiana Tech before a half-filled Michie Stadium.

[DFW HOYA]

Army's 2010 schedule--a game with Temple or Duke still makes more sense than Lafayette or Bucknell.

at Eastern Michigan
HAWAII
NORTH TEXAS
at Duke
TEMPLE
at Tulane
at Rutgers (at Meadowlands)
VMI
AIR FORCE
at Kent State
Notre Dame (at Yankee Stadium)
Navy (at Philadelphia)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Army's 2010 schedule--a game with Temple or Duke still makes more sense than Lafayette or Bucknell.

at Eastern Michigan
HAWAII
NORTH TEXAS
at Duke
TEMPLE
at Tulane
at Rutgers (at Meadowlands)
VMI
AIR FORCE
at Kent State
Notre Dame (at Yankee Stadium)
Navy (at Philadelphia)

But does Eastern Michigan and Kent State?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Army's 2010 schedule--a game with Temple or Duke still makes more sense than Lafayette or Bucknell.

at Eastern Michigan
HAWAII
NORTH TEXAS
at Duke
TEMPLE
at Tulane
at Rutgers (at Meadowlands)
VMI
AIR FORCE
at Kent State
Notre Dame (at Yankee Stadium)
Navy (at Philadelphia)

What's with the Yankee Stadium thing anyhow? I am somewhat familiar with the Bronx, and I know that Baker Field, Coffey Field and Yankee Stadium are less than a mile from one another. Is Army now reasserting itself as New York City's Division 1 football team?

If football works there, I think Yankee Stadium might be a nice spot for the Columbia/Fordham game. To me, that game has become an instant classic. It has all the makings of a great rivalry game. My preference , however, would still be for all the players, coaches and fans to make the walk each year between Baker and Coffey. It's only about half a mile and it could become a huge charity event.

[aceinthehole]

But does Eastern Michigan and Kent State?

Yes, those are "bowl eligible" opponents!

[Bogus Megapardus]

But does Eastern Michigan and Kent State?

Sure it does, LFN. You know, Army National Guard . . . Four Dead in O-Hi-O . . . get the picture???? xrolleyesx

[aceinthehole]

Is Army now reasserting itself as New York City's Division 1 football team?

If football works there, I think Yankee Stadium might be a nice spot for the Columbia/Fordham game.

1) Yes, Army is trying to be relavent again on the national stage. They are trying to keep pace with a very good Navy program.

2) Are you joking? What has Fordham/Columbia drawn in the past 4 years?

[Bogus Megapardus]

1) Yes, Army is trying to be relavent again on the national stage. They are trying to keep pace with a very good Navy program.

2) Are you joking? What has Fordham/Columbia drawn in the past 4 years?

I am not joking. New York City has three Division 1 football schools - Fordham, Wagner and Columbia. None has stellar attendance figures; each receives less local media attention than nearby FBS schools - Army, Rutgers and Connecticut (and maybe Syracuse, too.) Fordham and Columbia have been playing football longer than any of them and have continued to dedicate their efforts as educational institutions to New York City. It's time for the city and ots local press to recognize this.

If Columbia and Fordham don't draw much at the present, then I think it is incumbent upon the organizers who wish to hold football games at Yankee Stadium to look homeward and to use their resources and marketing skills to promote this game. These are New York's own universities. The city does not need to pander to carpetbaggers to promote its own brand. That never has been to New York way of doing things.

[TheValleyRaider]

I am not joking. New York City has three Division 1 football schools - Fordham, Wagner and Columbia. None has stellar attendance figures; each receives less local media attention than nearby FBS schools - Army, Rutgers and Connecticut (and maybe Syracuse, too.) Fordham and Columbia have been playing football longer than any of them and have continued to dedicate their efforts as educational institutions to New York City. It's time for the city and ots local press to recognize this.

If Columbia and Fordham don't draw much at the present, then I think it is incumbent upon the organizers who wish to hold football games at Yankee Stadium to look homeward and to use their resources and marketing skills to promote this game. These are New York's own universities. The city does not need to pander to carpetbaggers to promote its own brand. That never has been to New York way of doing things.

NY, at least right now, has a very different relationship with college sports than it does with professionals, I think. When places like NYU and Fordham downgraded football, attention was shifting to the Giants along with the Yankees, Dodgers/Giants/Mets. Now, so many NYers are alumni of other universities, or are suckered into the "Only BCS matters" trap. Events, like the Big East Tournament (which also feeds into the fact that NY is a huge basketball town) or bigtime teams at Yankee Stadium, plus some bandwagon-hopping like Rutgers, is the general path for college teams in the city now. Pros are king in a big way for NYC xtwocentsx

[Franks Tanks]

I guess semantically HC was 1-A when it played Army from 1966 to 1981 though there was really no huge difference in the schedule HC played in say 1974 and 1984. In many ways the 1-AA HC teams of the 80's were much better than the 1-A teams of the 70's.

Getting back to Army (of course, all due respect to the players there), they are loathe to admit it but they are much better off playing say HC, Colgate or Lafayette twice a year than play an Eastern Michigan and Louisiana Tech before a half-filled Michie Stadium.

Good point and I think the same can be said for many teams who went to I-AA after the split. For many scheduling and the relative strength of the team remained pretty similar.

[Sader87]

Good point and I think the same can be said for many teams who went to I-AA after the split. For many scheduling and the relative strength of the team remained pretty similar.

Very true, the Delaware, UMass and Lehigh teams throughout much of the 1970's, while technically Division 2, were every bit as good (and many years better)than D1 HC, Colgate and Villanova.

Once again, getting back to Army (and Navy)...E Michigan and Kent St are D1/FBS but really are no better than (and are probably worse) than the better FCS schools....Army would be much better served (attendence-wise, playing peer schools-wise etc etc) playing a PL team or two than a MAC or some directional FBS school.

[jimbo65]

What's with the Yankee Stadium thing anyhow? I am somewhat familiar with the Bronx, and I know that Baker Field, Coffey Field and Yankee Stadium are less than a mile from one another. Is Army now reasserting itself as New York City's Division 1 football team?

If football works there, I think Yankee Stadium might be a nice spot for the Columbia/Fordham game. To me, that game has become an instant classic. It has all the makings of a great rivalry game. My preference , however, would still be for all the players, coaches and fans to make the walk each year between Baker and Coffey. It's only about half a mile and it could become a huge charity event.
Actually, Yankee Stadium is several miles (4 or 5)from Wien (nee Baker's) and Coffey. Wien is @ 2 miles, at least from Coffey.

[Go...gate]

Sure it does, LFN. You know, Army National Guard . . . Four Dead in O-Hi-O . . . get the picture???? xrolleyesx

You and I may be two of the few who remember May 4, 1970 firsthand, Bogus....

[blukeys]

You and I may be two of the few who remember May 4, 1970 firsthand, Bogus....

You were there???

[Go...gate]

You were there???

No, but we remember it happening in our lifetimes.

[DFW HOYA]

You know the board is back when this thread is still at the top of the list...

[Syntax Error]

I guess semantically HC was 1-A when it played Army from 1966 to 1981.

NCAA Divisions I/II/III were created in 1973. I-A/I-AA was created in 1978. FCS/FBS was created in 2006.

[Sader87]

My 1966 to 1981 dates were chosen because HC resumed its series with Army in 1966 and didn't become officially 1-AA until 1982 (along with the Ivy League.).

There were actually very few 1-AA schools from 1978 to 1981...someone here would know the exact numbers I'm sure.

[Seawolf97]

What's with the Yankee Stadium thing anyhow? I am somewhat familiar with the Bronx, and I know that Baker Field, Coffey Field and Yankee Stadium are less than a mile from one another. Is Army now reasserting itself as New York City's Division 1 football team?

If football works there, I think Yankee Stadium might be a nice spot for the Columbia/Fordham game. To me, that game has become an instant classic. It has all the makings of a great rivalry game. My preference , however, would still be for all the players, coaches and fans to make the walk each year between Baker and Coffey. It's only about half a mile and it could become a huge charity event.

Actually Stadium management and the City are trying to promote 1 FBS game a year at the stadium. Likely between Big East vs Big 12 teams . Possible future matchups are UConn vs Baylor or Nebraska and Rutgers vs Oklahoma St. Both conferences are showing interest. Also talked about is Bowl Game there between a Big East vs Big 12 opponents.

[Seawolf97]

You and I may be two of the few who remember May 4, 1970 firsthand, Bogus....

Remember it well.

[Syntax Error]

My 1966 to 1981 dates were chosen because HC resumed its series with Army in 1966 and didn't become officially 1-AA until 1982 (along with the Ivy League.).

There were actually very few 1-AA schools from 1978 to 1981...someone here would know the exact numbers I'm sure.

I think the exact numbers are

I-AA (50, 1978-1981)

Alcorn St. ................................................19 78-current
Austin Peay.............................................. .1978-current
Bethune-Cookman......................................1980-current
Bucknell .................................................. ..1978-current
Davidson .......................................1978-90, 93-current
Delaware.......................................... ........1980-current
Delaware St. ......................................1978, 80-current
Eastern Ill. ................................................19 81-current
Eastern Ky. ..............................................1978-current
Florida A&M.............................................1979-current
Grambling ................................................19 78-current
Howard............................................ ..1978, 80-current
Idaho St. .................................................. 1978-current
Jackson St. ...............................................197 8-current
James Madison .........................................1980-current
Lafayette .................................................. .1978-current
Lehigh .................................................. ....1978-current
Maine .................................................. ....1978-current
Massachusetts ...........................................1978-current
Mississippi Val. ........................................1980-current
Montana........................................... ........1978-current
Montana St. .............................................1978-current
Morehead St. ...........................................1978-current
Murray St. ...............................................197 8-current
New Hampshire........................................1 978-current
Nicholls St. ..............................................1980-current
N.C. A&T...........................................1978, 80-current
Northeastern .............................................1978-current
Northern Ariz. ..........................................1978-current
UNI............................................... ...........1981-current
Northwestern St. .......................................1978-current
Portland St. ...................................1978-80, 98-current
Prairie View ..............................................1978-current
Rhode Island .............................................1978-current
South Carolina St. ..............................1978, 80-current
Southeastern La. ........................1980-85; 2003-current
Tennessee St. ...........................................1981-current
Tennessee Tech .........................................1978-current
Texas Southern.......................................... 1978-current
Weber St. ................................................19 78-current
Western Ill. ..............................................1981-current
Western Ky. .............................................1978-current
Youngstown St. ........................................1981-current
FORMER MEMBERS
Team Year(s)
Akron............................................. ................1980-86
Boise St. .................................................. ......1978-98
Boston U. .................................................. ....1978-97
Connecticut....................................... ..............1978-01
Idaho .................................................. ...........1978-96
Middle Tenn. .................................................1 978-98
Nevada .................................................. .......1978-91

I-A to I-AA (22, joined I-AA in 1982)

Appalachian St. .............................................1978-81
Brown .................................................. ..........1978-81
Chattanooga .................................................. 1978-81
Citadel .................................................. .........1978-81
Colgate........................................... ...............1978-81
Columbia .................................................. .....1978-81
Cornell .................................................. .........1978-81
Dartmouth......................................... ..............1978-81
Furman............................................ ...............1978-81
Harvard .................................................. .......1978-81
Holy Cross............................................. .........1978-81
Illinois St. .................................................. .....1978-81
Indiana St. .................................................. ...1978-81
McNeese St. .................................................. 1978-81
Penn .................................................. ............1978-81
Princeton .................................................. ......1978-81
Richmond .................................................. .....1978-81
Southern Ill. .................................................. .1978-81
VMI .................................................. .............1978-81
Western Caro. ...............................................197 8-81
William & Mary .............................................1978-81
Yale .................................................. .............1978-81

[Go...gate]

As ever, nice work, SE.

[TheValleyRaider]

So, during the board's downtime, this happened in Hamilton

http://gocolgateraiders.com/news/201...103101128.aspx

I posted this also on the news thread about Biddle's extension, but I figured the rest of the PL crowd would definitely see it here

Some critical quotes:

“Having completed 19 1/2 years as a Director of Athletics I thought now would be a good time to do this,” said Roach. “What I will do is visit 11 schools and review the following; organizational structure, academic support, fundraising, facility management, facility design and construction, faculty relations, budgeting, Title IX and strategic planning.”


“The transition to scholarships at Colgate has gone very well but there is more we can do to give our the student-athletes a great experience within the framework of our educational mission, I hope to learn some creative ways to enhance our program during my sabbatical,” stated Roach.


The 11 schools Roach will visit are: Princeton, Furman, Vanderbilt, North Carolina, Duke, Davidson, Rice, Boston University, Boston College, SMU and Delaware. It is a wide variety of institutions all of which are willing to open up their departments and share ideas.

Interesting, to say the least... xchinscratchx

[Go...gate]

One encouraging thing about Roach's "tour" is that no NESCAC schools are on it.

[Sly Fox]

The 11 schools Roach will visit are: Princeton, Furman, Vanderbilt, North Carolina, Duke, Davidson, Rice, Boston University, Boston College, SMU and Delaware. It is a wide variety of institutions all of which are willing to open up their departments and share ideas.

One of these things is not like the others.

[Bogus Megapardus]

One encouraging thing about Roach's "tour" is that no NESCAC schools are on it.

Oh, my - the things upon which one could speculate here. Why, thank you, I shall . . . . Perhaps Colgate's new President does not feel sufficiently informed of Colgate's football history and/or the "gestalt" of the Patriot League. Combine his desire to be properly informed with Femovich's mandate from the PL presidents (and from the holier-than-thou, just-because-we-are-who-we-are Lafayette faculty) and you have a recipe for a fact finding mission.

Roach's six-month mission is to explore strange new campuses, to seek out new life forms and new civilizations, and to boldly go where no cloistered PL-member official has gone before. Roach will travel to Princeton, Furman, Vanderbilt, North Carolina, Duke, Davidson, Rice, Boston University, Boston College, SMU and Delaware - a sensible cross section of places where PL football candidates go instead.

Roach will report back to Femovich that the PL's academically "most-competitive" colleges not only can succeed in football without sacrificing academic prowess, they actually can increase admissions standards and even move to the FBS level with the introduction of scholarships combined with reaffirmation of the academic index.

The PL will announce a scaling up of scholarships combined with a strengthened academic index, and PL schedules, beginning with a grand Holy Cross/Boston College contest, will evolve to include Vanderbilt, Duke, Rice and even SMU, in addition to PL members Army and Navy. Full FBS commitment to follow within 7 years, in a reformed PL that includes at least three of the above.

Or maybe not . . . . xxmasx

[ngineer]

Oh, my - the things upon which one could speculate here. Why, thank you, I shall . . . . Perhaps Colgate's new President does not feel sufficiently informed of Colgate's football history and/or the "gestalt" of the Patriot League. Combine his desire to be properly informed with Femovich's mandate from the PL presidents (and from the holier-than-thou, just-because-we-are-who-we-are Lafayette faculty) and you have a recipe for a fact finding mission.

Roach's six-month mission is to explore strange new campuses, to seek out new life forms and new civilizations, and to boldly go where no cloistered PL-member official has gone before. Roach will travel to Princeton, Furman, Vanderbilt, North Carolina, Duke, Davidson, Rice, Boston University, Boston College, SMU and Delaware - a sensible cross section of places where PL football candidates go instead.

Roach will report back to Femovich that the PL's academically "most-competitive" colleges not only can succeed in football without sacrificing academic prowess, they actually can increase admissions standards and even move to the FBS level with the introduction of scholarships combined with reaffirmation of the academic index.

The PL will announce a scaling up of scholarships combined with a strengthened academic index, and PL schedules, beginning with a grand Holy Cross/Boston College contest, will evolve to include Vanderbilt, Duke, Rice and even SMU, in addition to PL members Army and Navy. Full FBS commitment to follow within 7 years, in a reformed PL that includes at least three of the above.

Or maybe not . . . . xxmasx

I'll try what your taking.....;):D

[Go...gate]

Oh, my - the things upon which one could speculate here. Why, thank you, I shall . . . . Perhaps Colgate's new President does not feel sufficiently informed of Colgate's football history and/or the "gestalt" of the Patriot League. Combine his desire to be properly informed with Femovich's mandate from the PL presidents (and from the holier-than-thou, just-because-we-are-who-we-are Lafayette faculty) and you have a recipe for a fact finding mission.

Roach's six-month mission is to explore strange new campuses, to seek out new life forms and new civilizations, and to boldly go where no cloistered PL-member official has gone before. Roach will travel to Princeton, Furman, Vanderbilt, North Carolina, Duke, Davidson, Rice, Boston University, Boston College, SMU and Delaware - a sensible cross section of places where PL football candidates go instead.

Roach will report back to Femovich that the PL's academically "most-competitive" colleges not only can succeed in football without sacrificing academic prowess, they actually can increase admissions standards and even move to the FBS level with the introduction of scholarships combined with reaffirmation of the academic index.

The PL will announce a scaling up of scholarships combined with a strengthened academic index, and PL schedules, beginning with a grand Holy Cross/Boston College contest, will evolve to include Vanderbilt, Duke, Rice and even SMU, in addition to PL members Army and Navy. Full FBS commitment to follow within 7 years, in a reformed PL that includes at least three of the above.

Or maybe not . . . . xxmasx

Never thought of this, but wouldn't it be great?

[colorless raider]

Never thought of this, but wouldn't it be great?

From your lips to God's ears.:D

[ngineer]

Wow,...it looks like this thread may actually be dyng after a run of 31 days!:D

[Bogus Megapardus]

Wow,...it looks like this thread may actually be dyng after a run of 31 days!:D

Yeah, but you went ahead and bumped it anyhow, didn't you? xlolx

Does anybody know if the meeting actually took place?

[CrusaderBob]

It can't die now, becasue just 5 months from today, the next Council of Presisdent's meeting begins!

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/patr/genrel/auto_pdf/Spring2010.pdf

The anticipation and speculation about what happened at the December meeting may have died, but now it's time for the speculation and anticipation for what MIGHT happen at June Meeting to begin!

[ngineer]

It can't die now, becasue just 5 months from today, the next Council of Presisdent's meeting begins!

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/patr/genrel/auto_pdf/Spring2010.pdf

The anticipation and speculation about what happened at the December meeting may have died, but now it's time for the speculation and anticipation for what MIGHT happen at June Meeting to begin!

Seem masochistic to me at this point xrotatehx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yeah, but you went ahead and bumped it anyhow, didn't you? xlolx

Does anybody know if the meeting actually took place?

It did.

[Bogus Megapardus]

It did.

This thread now has over ten thousand reads.

Is that all you, LFN?

[colorless raider]

Nothing will happen because the presidents would just like to see football slip into obscurity. It's a group that can't or won't make a decision and recruiting gets harder and harder. We are in a twilight zone. Very discouraging.