Fordham to the CAA?

[Redwyn]

Redwyn...you keep speaking of what Fiore wants. Fiore 'aint getting what he wants. The Arena renovations have been put on hold, as has the addition to the stadium. He also has to reduce his $21 mm budget.

Now, I know you keep saying alumni will step up...but we too have seen this problem at Albany (and at UNH, and at UMASS, etc); until that money is flush in the pockets of the ADEPT...it aint there.

SBU is not going to the MAC, BIG EAST or any other non-mid major conference for YEARS.

I believe that is what I said. Most of my posts point to a projection of a decade or more. And Fiore, while often hyperbolic, has been up to this point right on in where he wants us to be. His doubters on this campus have learned to shut their mouths quickly, esp after his hiring of Priore (check his D3 record if you're wondering why) and Pikiell, the current basketball coach. The athletic program has grown in competitiveness by LEAPS and bounds in the past 4 years. Where we once lost to bottom tier NEC schools by a gap margin, we now laugh at that match-up. Where we were the AE stomping ground as recently as 2006, we're now #2 in the conference by a margin of one place in one sport, taking 2 championships in the fall with more on the way (basketball, of all sports, seems to be dominating at the moment). You have to admit that the rapidity of our athletic improvement is nearly esoteric. Of course, this makes sense given that we really started at nearly 0. The initial rise is always the most meteoric.

I don't believe we have a problem with putting money in the right hands. Our budget is large, but not out of proportion with school size. Remember, to compare us to Buffalo is a poor decision due to the fact that Buffalo is basically a case study in how to NOT move to DI-A. I'd sooner compare us to Clemson, a school of near equal size and now smaller endowment (though much larger athletic budget). We have a way to go, and that's why I don't believe you've seen the end to athletic budget expansion. What seems to have been said is that the athletic budget can no longer drain the school's line budget. The money must come from elsewhere. I have little reason to believe that it won't, esp in light of three new athletic admin hirings in the past two months.

There is not one poster on this board who doesn't have an optimistic view of their program, whether stated or otherwise. I make my statements out of a combination of fact and administrative ideals. Your guess is no better than mine in how it will end. What I do know though, is that the AE, CAA, and to some degree the A-10 are not demographically compatible with SBU. One needs to look no further than the ancient Pitt/Duquesne rivalry (I was born in Pitt so know it well) to see an example of how a school's fortunes and status change based on its direction.

[Redfox97]

If the PL is worried about losing Fordham and Georgetown and thus scrambling for schools to keep it's auto bid how about offering Gettysburg and Franklin & Marshall the chance to move up. Geographically makes sense and both have the academics over athletics philosophy embraced by the League. If memory serves didn't they belong to the same league as Lehigh/Lafayette/Bucknell in the 60's?

I'd pursue that before pursuing dreck like Monmouth or Marist.

Dreck really. What is the story behind that? Lost a girlfriend or two?

[LUHawker]

I maintain that Marist would have given the PL a great all-sports member, would have upgraded basketball immensely, and as a bonus would have given the League a football team with a newly-refurbished stadium and that could grow into a decent program, should they desire. But they seemed to fail some ideological purity test (or "old boy network" test) and never seemed like as serious a candidate as they should have been, IMO.

Your love affair with Marist seems to know no bounds, LFN and you've thrown around a lot of hyperbole. As we've bantered in various prior posts, why pray-tell would Marist have been a "great" all-sports member, other than being a member. I agree that their addition would upgrade basketball, although I doubt it would "immensely" upgrade it.

You are optimistic that it could grow into a "decent" program should they desire. I presume that they would like to already be a decent team so why being in the PL would facilitate that growth into a decent team, I don't know.

I think the reality (thanks goodness) is that this train has left the station.

xpeacex

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I believe that is what I said. Most of my posts point to a projection of a decade or more. And Fiore, while often hyperbolic, has been up to this point right on in where he wants us to be. His doubters on this campus have learned to shut their mouths quickly, esp after his hiring of Priore (check his D3 record if you're wondering why) and Pikiell, the current basketball coach. The athletic program has grown in competitiveness by LEAPS and bounds in the past 4 years. Where we once lost to bottom tier NEC schools by a gap margin, we now laugh at that match-up.

In football, you went from middle-of-the-road in a conference with 40ish scholarships to champion of a conference who can offer 63 - and knocking off a Top 25 team, and playoff aspirant, to boot. And that was only after joining the conference, what, two years ago? That's pretty good. Not Georgia Southern, but close.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think the reality (thanks goodness) is that this train has left the station.

xpeacex

Looks like we agree on something. xsmhx

[LUHawker]

Looks like we agree on something. xsmhx

Oh, me thinks we agree on a lot, just not on Marist. xnodx

[Jackman]

Never is a long time but I feel pretty safe in saying that UD will never join the Atlantic 10. It just makes no sense from almost any perspective, more so with regular trips to St. Louis and Dayton facing Olympic sport teams. That ship has long since sailed for UD.

Eh? The travel would be pretty similar for Delaware. Distance wise, St. Louis = Georgia State, Charlotte = UNCW, Richmond = VCU, Fordham = Hofstra, GWU = GMU, Bonaventure = Northeastern, Duquesne = W&M, La Salle = Drexel, and St. Joseph's = Towson. UMass and URI are each about 1 hour further than ODU and JMU, but the presence of Temple next door without any remaining CAA equivalent should more than make up for that. That just leaves Xavier and Dayton, which are more expensive trips but well worth having on the basketball schedule, and Delaware wouldn't be traveling to them or St. Louis in football (unlike G-State). It's close enough overall that travel shoudn't factor into the decision.

The bigger problem is that the A10 is run by (1) morons, and (2) private/catholic universities without serious football programs who are mostly only interested in adding other private/catholic universities without serious football programs. They won't invite Delaware, ODU, or JMU. They'd sooner invite friggin' Drexel. They nearly invited Boston University when St. Louis was brought in. That's the direction the A10 is going in.

[Jackman]

What exact day is it that the Patriot League is having their next meeting on scholarships? It's this month, right?

[maristdb89]

but the "dreck" comment is unnecessary.

Agreed. Thanks GoGate.

[Bogus Megapardus]

What exact day is it that the Patriot League is having their next meeting on scholarships? It's this month, right?

No one except the participants would know what subject is to be discussed at any particular meeting. For what it's worth, however, this is the current administrative calendar:

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/patr/genrel/auto_pdf/PLAdminCalendar10609.pdf

I notice there are two days of meetings at Lehigh University next week involving the "Council of Presidents." I have no idea whatsoever what that means or who will be there, but I wouldn't mind being a fly on the wall. For all I know, they could be discussing the scoreboard at Goodman or a timetable for Multi-sport Field. xrolleyesx

[Uncle Buck]

In football, you went from middle-of-the-road in a conference with 40ish scholarships to champion of a conference who can offer 63 - and knocking off a Top 25 team, and playoff aspirant, to boot. And that was only after joining the conference, what, two years ago? That's pretty good. Not Georgia Southern, but close.

No doubt Priore was a good hire for SBU, but they were 5-1 in a less than stellar conference. Only one out of conference win and Priore hasn't been better than 6-5 in four years. Not bashing SBU since i like Priore's fire, but if he doesn't produce something better next year, i'd question his ability to get the job done. Fortunately for him, the Big South membership coupled with next year's auto bid means that he has an easier road to the playoffs. Imagine the autobid was this year, SBU at 6-5 would have gone by virtue of the tiebreaker with Liberty!

As for Fordham to the CAA, i like it. They are committed to improving the program and i like the fact that it's another road game that i can easily get to. xthumbsupx

[Redwyn]

No doubt Priore was a good hire for SBU, but they were 5-1 in a less than stellar conference. Only one out of conference win and Priore hasn't been better than 6-5 in four years. Not bashing SBU since i like Priore's fire, but if he doesn't produce something better next year, i'd question his ability to get the job done. Fortunately for him, the Big South membership coupled with next year's auto bid means that he has an easier road to the playoffs. Imagine the autobid was this year, SBU at 6-5 would have gone by virtue of the tiebreaker with Liberty!

As for Fordham to the CAA, i like it. They are committed to improving the program and i like the fact that it's another road game that i can easily get to. xthumbsupx

I do agree that the OOC issue is significant, but, in fairness to SBU, this is our absolute first year of full scholly football. I would have preferred a win over Colgate and North Dakota, but the only game where we got blown out was U Mass.

Regardless, issue doesn't change. SBU has no place in the CAA. We'll take our high potential playoff bid :)

[ngineer]

No one except the participants would know what subject is to be discussed at any particular meeting. For what it's worth, however, this is the current administrative calendar:

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/patr/genrel/auto_pdf/PLAdminCalendar10609.pdf

I notice there are two days of meetings at Lehigh University next week involving the "Council of Presidents." I have no idea whatsoever what that means or who will be there, but I wouldn't mind being a fly on the wall. For all I know, they could be discussing the scoreboard at Goodman or a timetable for Multi-sport Field. xrolleyesx

That's probably 'the' meeting...I thought they'd be holding in a field off of Leithsville Road south of Hellertown...With the big 'P' burning above the bonfire. And if they get the new scoreboard at Goodman, I'm all for it!:D

[Bogus Megapardus]

[/B]

That's probably 'the' meeting...I thought they'd be holding in a field off of Leithsville Road south of Hellertown...With the big 'P' burning above the bonfire. And if they get the new scoreboard at Goodman, I'm all for it!:D

Having now finished perusal of the 2009-10 Patriot League Policy and Procedures Manual (http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/patr/genrel/auto_pdf/PolicyandProcedures2009-10.pdf), circumstances seem to suggest as much. As an aside, the Manual contains something of an "official" history of the League that I've not previously seen. It seems that we were, indeed, created by and in the likeness of our Ivy brethren. The confluence of interests between the two leagues probably remains a significant decision-making factor.

[Go...gate]

Mike Francesa was with Tom Pecora pushing Pecora on WFAN today and calling on Pecora and Hofstra's President to join the A-10 at least for basketball. What a murky situation we have right now for so many schools.

[GannonFan]

Mike Francesa was with Tom Pecora pushing Pecora on WFAN today and calling on Pecora and Hofstra's President to join the A-10 at least for basketball. What a murky situation we have right now for so many schools.

Francesa's been talking about that ever since Hofstra joined the CAA - while it makes all the sense in the world for men's basketball, it makes zero sense for every other sport. Which makes it great for radio hosts to talk about since they don't need to worry about the fine details of say, Olympic Sports and football.

[henfan]

Eh? The travel would be pretty similar for Delaware. Distance wise, St. Louis = Georgia State, Charlotte = UNCW, Richmond = VCU, Fordham = Hofstra, GWU = GMU, Bonaventure = Northeastern, Duquesne = W&M, La Salle = Drexel, and St. Joseph's = Towson.

That's my point. Contrary to the post I was responding to, the A-10 would be a wash in terms of travel for UD and wouldn't save money.

The CAA is just a better match for UD, athletically & institutionally. (Does the A-10 have anything like the CAA Academic Alliance? It certainly doesn't have FB.) Aside from hoops, I fail to see any huge advantage to joining the A-10 in any other Olympic sport. If the conference profile was more like larger state-sponsored institutions (UMass & Rhody) and far less parochial, the decision the UD made back in '96 not to join the A-10 might have been more difficult. Since that time, the A-10 has expanded their footprint to way west and further south, adding yet another parochial school. Obviously both sides have moved on.

[henfan]

Which makes it great for radio hosts to talk about since they don't need to worry about the fine details of say, Olympic Sports and football.

Ditto Steve Marcus. These guys seem to be under the impression that Hofstra's main desire should be operating a basketball franchise, not providing the best opportunity for its dozen plus other athletic programs. Probably explains why they are in the media and not running ADs.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Francesa's been talking about that ever since Hofstra joined the CAA - while it makes all the sense in the world for men's basketball, it makes zero sense for every other sport. Which makes it great for radio hosts to talk about since they don't need to worry about the fine details of say, Olympic Sports and football.


Ditto Steve Marcus. These guys seem to be under the impression that Hofstra's main desire should be operating a basketball franchise, not providing the best opportunity for its dozen plus other athletic programs. Probably explains why they are in the media and not running ADs.

This may be true, but don't underestimate the power of this rhetoric from WFAN and the sportswriters. The ill-will about Hofstra basketball being "shut out" by a "southern-based" conference, while overstated by WFAN and Marcus, is the perception out there.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The CAA is just a better match for UD, athletically & institutionally. (Does the A-10 have anything like the CAA Academic Alliance? It certainly doesn't have FB.) Aside from hoops, I fail to see any huge advantage to joining the A-10 in any other Olympic sport...

Absolutely true. And you guys would know, after football floundered a bit under the "Bruno era". Looking back, it's hard to escape the conclusion that A-10 football's potential was not being met under A-10 leadership.

[Dane96]

This may be true, but don't underestimate the power of this rhetoric from WFAN and the sportswriters. The ill-will about Hofstra basketball being "shut out" by a "southern-based" conference, while overstated by WFAN and Marcus, is the perception out there.

Hofstra (and this is meant as no offense to my HU friends) isnt an itch on anyone's ballsack.

You really think radio listeners and newspaper readers are burning up time questioning Hofstra's allegiance to a Southern Based conference that shuts them out?

LI'ers could give a rats ass as long as they have these things in life: beaches, outdoor time, nice "suburban" restaurants, malls, easy commute on the LIE (never will happen), no hurricane force winds, expensive clothing, good schools, low crime, etc....

[mcveyrl]

http://twitter.com/PeteThamelNYT

[Bogus Megapardus]

If Hofstra is dropping football, that PL meeting next week is going to be interesting to say the least. Fordham now picks up all of Hofstra's CAA chips, so to speak.

[Dignan]

If Hofstra is dropping football, that PL meeting next week is going to be interesting to say the least. Fordham now picks up all of Hofstra's CAA chips, so to speak.

How do you mean? In what way does Hofstra dropping football benefit Fordham?

[Fordham]

there's no way it helps Fordham.

*it possibly shuts out one of our options as the CAA may just move southern teams up to balance the league.

*it takes away a natural, local rival

*it's another local, private school shutting down football in the Northeast, yet again pushing most Fordham fans' greatest fear that the admin will can our program some day.

Nothing good in this - nothing.

[Dignan]

there's no way it helps Fordham.

*it possibly shuts out one of our options as the CAA may just move southern teams up to balance the league.

*it takes away a natural, local rival

*it's another local, private school shutting down football in the Northeast, yet again pushing most Fordham fans' greatest fear that the admin will can our program some day.

Nothing good in this - nothing.

Yeah, that's kind of what I figured. I could see one team being dropped being very advantageous to Fordham, as the CAA would need to balance the league. But as you said having 2 teams drop out just means that they'll probably redistribute the teams that are already there.

After all, the CAA was already going to be too big once ODU and Ga State officially join the fold.

[Bogus Megapardus]

How do you mean? In what way does Hofstra dropping football benefit Fordham?


there's no way it helps Fordham.

*it possibly shuts out one of our options as the CAA may just move southern teams up to balance the league.

*it takes away a natural, local rival

*it's another local, private school shutting down football in the Northeast, yet again pushing most Fordham fans' greatest fear that the admin will can our program some day.

Nothing good in this - nothing.

On the other hand, it can help make Fordham more of a centerpiece of Metro NY football, remove a recruiting competitor, and possibly motivate the CAA to increase its focus on inclusion Fordham, if it already was predisposed to doing so.

Obviously, the situation stinks for Hofstra, which is an excellent university with great facilities and a superb reputation.

This is totally an opinion and just a guess, but this might cause the PL Presidents to chime in with an "I told you so" and to scale back any future football scholarship ideas. Again - just speculation. Such a decision would not be helpful to those Fordham fans who wanted to continue in a scholarship PL.

[DFW HOYA]

This sends a chilling effect on scholarships to the PL presidents meeting. If two private schools in the NE can't make it with 63, what does that tell these seven?

[Ken_Z]

wow, this one could be a game changer. possible ripple effects all over the place. too much for my small mind to comprehend. i will wait for carney to interpret the ramifications for me.

[Franks Tanks]

This sends a chilling effect on scholarships to the PL presidents meeting. If two private schools in the NE can't make it with 63, what does that tell these seven?

Agree 100%.

First thing the PL presidents will say is "You guys should feel lucky we have FCS football period. You want us to add Scholly's after the two NE private schools with them just dropped the sport"

The PL will use this as an example of why they wont fund full scholarship FB.

[Bogus Megapardus]

what does that tell these seven?

It tells them to continue on with the Ivy emulation model, maintain scheduling status quo, and decline the FCS playoffs so that no one will know whether we're competitive or not. Then we'll have another 10 years of discussion about a post-season "Nerd Bowl" against the Ivy champ, which again will never happen.

Then, after all of our endowments once again surpass the two billion dollar mark from investments in Chinese infrastructure and Namibian lithium futures, every admitted student at each PL institution will get a tuition-free education, so athletic scholarships won't matter. Or at least that's the pipe-dream.

[DFW HOYA]

The PL will use this as an example of why they wont fund full scholarship FB.

If the PL presidents had met just two weeks earlier...

[mcveyrl]

I mentioned this on another thread, but this also leaves only CAA football affiliates in the North. If they left to form another conference, they could snatch up Fordham too.

[RichH2]

Iagree that 2 CAA school's dropping football does not help merit aid issue. Gives the academes a perfect out to keep the status quo with a statement something like we'll address issue again in 3-4 years when situation clarifies itself.

[Fordham]

This sends a chilling effect on scholarships to the PL presidents meeting. If two private schools in the NE can't make it with 63, what does that tell these seven?

yep. really a stunning, stunning day in fcs football.

[bluehenbillk]

With today's news it makes this thread a moot point, Fordham ain't going to the CAA.

[GannonFan]

With today's news it makes this thread a moot point, Fordham ain't going to the CAA.

Yup, no way that will happen now.

[Bogus Megapardus]

With today's news it makes this thread a moot point, Fordham ain't going to the CAA.

Nor can Fordham stay in the PL unless scholarships are approved. So now what happens to Fordham if the PL presidents do not approve FCS-maximum football scholarships?

[GannonFan]

Nor can Fordham stay in the PL unless scholarships are approved. So now what happens to Fordham if the PL presidents do not approve FCS-maximum football scholarships?


The Big South with Stony Brook? The NEC?

[Bogus Megapardus]

The Big South with Stony Brook? The NEC?

To my knowledge, the NEC does not allow FCS-maximum scholarships.

[Dane96]

Only 40...and rumors of 50 or so coming along.

With this...who knows.

[GannonFan]

To my knowledge, the NEC does not allow FCS-maximum scholarships.

Does Fordham need to be at the maximum? And if the NEC goes to 50 it's not like they are far away from the max anyway.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Does Fordham need to be at the maximum? And if the NEC goes to 50 it's not like they are far away from the max anyway.

I'm only going by Fordham's public announcement, which calls for 60 football scholarships effective immediately. Could that change? Of course, anything can change.

[DFW HOYA]

With today's news it makes this thread a moot point, Fordham ain't going to the CAA.

As Lee Corso might say, "Not so fast, my friend..."

There is a school of thought who suggested that Fordham to the CAA would make sense only if Hofstra was somehow a candidate for a trade with the A-10. Fordham has not been successful in the A-10 and see those guarantee games with Army and UConn as the return of the good old days. They are not backing off 60 scholarships regardless of what Hofstra does.

Is a conference swap coming into play? You never know.

[jimbo65]

Does Fordham need to be at the maximum? And if the NEC goes to 50 it's not like they are far away from the max anyway.

My understanding is that we need the max, or perhaps it is 60, so that scheduled opponents Army, Navy & UConn can count the game in the bowl eligible column so to speak. Someone please correct if this is wrong.

[DFW HOYA]

My understanding is that we need the max, or perhaps it is 60, so that scheduled opponents Army, Navy & UConn can count the game in the bowl eligible column so to speak. Someone please correct if this is wrong.


The rule is 90% of eligible scholarships over a four year average. 63 x 90% = at least 56.7 grants, but most schools opt to be closer to 63 for general competitiveness purposes.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This sends a chilling effect on scholarships to the PL presidents meeting. If two private schools in the NE can't make it with 63, what does that tell these seven?


wow, this one could be a game changer. possible ripple effects all over the place.

This is my opinion, but it could be interpreted that Northeastern and Hofstra simply made the decision to pull the plug due to problems with the CAA. Northeastern thought they couldn't run with the big dogs, and Hofstra, well, it sure looks like he was looking for an excuse to put the stake in the heart of football anyway. "Costs" are always bandied about as an excuse, but it could be interpeted that they didn't want to spend the money to compete with Delaware/JMU - meaning, upgrading facilities and promotion.

Though I agree, I don't think this is good news for the PL overall. A lot of these "ripple effects" are not good for the league in any way.

[GannonFan]

This is my opinion, but it could be interpreted that Northeastern and Hofstra simply made the decision to pull the plug due to problems with the CAA. Northeastern thought they couldn't run with the big dogs, and Hofstra, well, it sure looks like he was looking for an excuse to put the stake in the heart of football anyway. "Costs" are always bandied about as an excuse, but it could be interpeted that they didn't want to spend the money to compete with Delaware/JMU - meaning, upgrading facilities and promotion.

Though I agree, I don't think this is good news for the PL overall. A lot of these "ripple effects" are not good for the league in any way.


I agree with that. There's no mere coincidence that the CAA has begun to perform extremely well on the national stage of late, whereas as recent as the mid 90's the conference was really UD and not much else on the national stage. There's a lot of big schools and big programs and a lot of money being bandied about now. There were, and still are, clearly haves and have nots in the CAA and the same separation that's happening nationally, to a point, is happening inside the conference as well.

[Dane96]

The rule is 90% of eligible scholarships over a four year average. 63 x 90% = at least 56.7 grants, but most schools opt to be closer to 63 for general competitiveness purposes.

Little birdy told me the NCAA is talking about lowering this number to 50.....xwhistlex

[DetroitFlyer]

Little birdy told me the NCAA is talking about lowering this number to 50.....xwhistlex


The entire rule is not needed. Why can Murray State go and play Louisville and get absolutely creamed, while Lousiville gets to rack up a bowl eligibility win, while the same game would not happen with Morehead State due to this restriction...? A game against ANY FCS team should count.... Does ANYONE really think that Morehead State could have done worse than Murray State? This rule is certainly not based on being competitive.... Of course that is how it is portrayed....

[DFW HOYA]

Looks like Fordham just opened up some more room on its budget...

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/2009/12/03/2009-12-03_fordham.html

[CrusaderBob]

Looks like Fordham just opened up some more room on its budget...

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/2009/12/03/2009-12-03_fordham.html

Not sure buying out Whittenburg's contract, that I think went until the end 2012, makes more money available in the Fordham Athletics budget.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Looks like Fordham just opened up some more room on its budget...

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/2009/12/03/2009-12-03_fordham.html

About time but i don't know how much that will fix things. Fordham needs to show more commitment to their hoops program. It's great what they're doing in terms of football but people need to realize where they stand in bball. They're basically the Georgetown of the A10.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Looks like Fordham just opened up some more room on its budget...

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/2009/12/03/2009-12-03_fordham.html

It is reported that Whittenburg has a hefty buyout.

[bison137]

Mike Francesa was with Tom Pecora pushing Pecora on WFAN today and calling on Pecora and Hofstra's President to join the A-10 at least for basketball.


The problem is that the A-10 wants to have less teams, not more. Of course Francesa is clueless anyway.

[Go...gate]

The problem is that the A-10 wants to have less teams, not more. Of course Francesa is clueless anyway.

Agreed. That he had no clue about football and was harping on hoops has to be a little embarrassing.

[Jackman]

Little birdy told me the NCAA is talking about lowering this number to 50.....xwhistlex

Was that little birdy singing about the total FCS limit, or just the minimum for being a counter for bowl eligibility?

[Go...gate]

I wonder if Fordham will reconsider leaving the PL after today, of if this will simply hasten their departure? Any thoughts?

[Dane96]

Was that little birdy singing about the total FCS limit, or just the minimum for being a counter for bowl eligibility?

Two ideas floating:

1. Bring the max number of scholarships down; that wont fly because schools like Montana, CAA South, etc...will fly the coup to FBS...and the FBS teams dont want that.

2. Counter eligiblity would be 50-53...in that range. It helps everyone involved.

[Fordham]

I wonder if Fordham will reconsider leaving the PL after today, of if this will simply hasten their departure? Any thoughts? honestly no idea but i'm trying to get some feedback.

i think there's a combination of letting this all settle in and waiting for any additional moves to take place that will rule for the short term.

[Fordham]

here's the one thing I'm missing as far as our decision is concerned - if the move to scholarships is not costing us anything and it's simply a one-for-one transfer, then how would staying in the PL help us out in any way? There are a few posters stating or insinuating that this helps validate the PL model or at least will hurt the potential move to scholarships, but should it? Honestly trying to see if I'm missing something here.

[Ken_Z]

here's the one thing I'm missing as far as our decision is concerned - if the move to scholarships is not costing us anything and it's simply a one-for-one transfer, then how would staying in the PL help us out in any way? There are a few posters stating or insinuating that this helps validate the PL model or at least will hurt the potential move to scholarships, but should it? Honestly trying to see if I'm missing something here.

i think this comes back to the differences in Title IX compliance. since the conversion costs Fordham little to nothing, they presumably would not have any second thoughts. staying in the PL with AI and no scholarships remains unacceptable for Fordham and there is no reason to pull back from the conversion to schollys.

the other PL schools that would create more Title IX problems for themselves by adopting scholarships, reportedly Lafayette and Bucknell, and would have to "buy" their way out, are likely to be even more hesitant to pull the trigger now. if this keeps the PL from adopting, then Fordham will need to move on without the league.

[LUHawker]

Hopefully the shifts in the CAA will cause more pressure on the PL to allow schollies and Fordham stays. I certainly could see the PL now saying, "see, look what schollies hath wrought on NU and HU", but if Fordham is invited to the CAA and uses that leverage to accelerate the PL's move to schollies, that would be great.

Despite lots of commentary about not wanting to move conferences, I think a PL with scholarships is a great spot for Villanova and if VU were to come along, half of the PL would be Catholic colleges and would seem to be of interest to HC, FU, GU and VU. Maybe then, Gtown would pick up the pace a bit.

[Bogus Megapardus]

i think this comes back to the differences in Title IX compliance. since the conversion costs Fordham little to nothing, they presumably would not have any second thoughts. staying in the PL with AI and no scholarships remains unacceptable for Fordham and there is no reason to pull back from the conversion to schollys.

the other PL schools that would create more Title IX problems for themselves by adopting scholarships, reportedly Lafayette and Bucknell, and would have to "buy" their way out, are likely to be even more hesitant to pull the trigger now. if this keeps the PL from adopting, then Fordham will need to move on without the league.


Hopefully the shifts in the CAA will cause more pressure on the PL to allow schollies and Fordham stays. I certainly could see the PL now saying, "see, look what schollies hath wrought on NU and HU", but if Fordham is invited to the CAA and uses that leverage to accelerate the PL's move to schollies, that would be great.

Despite lots of commentary about not wanting to move conferences, I think a PL with scholarships is a great spot for Villanova and if VU were to come along, half of the PL would be Catholic colleges and would seem to be of interest to HC, FU, GU and VU. Maybe then, Gtown would pick up the pace a bit.

But the current scholarship-preparedness disparity amongst the five permanent football-playing PL members is just too great, it seems, to permit full scholarships right away. Fordham already has announced full scholarships, so it seems they're gone (which is very sad). As much as I think Villanova is a great fit and its presence could hasten Georgetown's rise, its alumni would screech at what necessarily would be viewed by them as a step down. Consider also that the Council of Presidents, which ultimately makes these decisions, consist only of the eight full-time, all-sports members. Fordham and Georgetown are not included.

Another consideration - and maybe this has been covered previously - is that the PL is the only all-sports sports conference that must compete with two schools where every single player on every team has a full, federally-funded, scholarship. No one could ever persuade me that athletic merit is not considered when granting admission to the service academies. The more I think about it, the more it seems that the PL's stoicism regarding football scholarships exists primarily to appease its Ivy partners. Don't get me wrong - I love our four Ivy games each year. I keep wondering, though, who else will the Ivies play in football if not the PL, scholarships or not?

[Franks Tanks]

But the scholarship-preparedness disparity amongst the five permanent football-playing PL members is just too great, it seems, to permit full scholarships right away. Fordham already has announced full scholarships, so it seems they're gone (which is very sad). As much as I think Villanova is a great fit and its presence could hasten Georgetown's rise, it's alumni would screech at what necessarily would be viewed by them as a step down. Consider also that the Council of Presidents, which ultimately makes these decisions, consist only of the eight full-time, all-sports members. Fordham and Georgetown are not included.

Another consideration - and maybe this has been covered previously - is that the PL is the only all-sports sports conference that must compete with two schools where every single player on every team has a full, federally-funded, scholarship. No one could ever persuade me that athletic merit is not considered when granting admission to the service academies. The more I think about it, the more it seems that the PL's stoicism regarding football scholarships exists primarily to appease its Ivy partners. Don't get me wrong - I love our four Ivy games each year. I keep wondering, though, who else will the Ivies play in football if not the PL, scholarships or not?


Athletic merit is absolutely considered at the academies. Athletic recruits still need an appiontment to the academy, but if they gain admission that are not counted against that congressman's appointment. (they can only have one at a time at each academy IIRC).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What if the PL had some sort of middle-way solution with scholarships, i.e., 20 full merit-based rides and the rest need-based aid (and the same grant-in-aid stuff the schools are currently doing as well)?

How would Title IX be affected for the reported "trouble teams", and could they keep the same, more or less, accounting they've done in the past? Would adding 20 women's scholarships over four years be enough for compliance?

And would Fordham be OK with this?

If it works, it could be an elegant solution that keeps everyone reasonably happy.

[DFW HOYA]

Yes, it would probably work.

No, Fordham will not settle for less than 60 full scholarships that allow it to schedule I-A teams.

[CrusaderBob]

But the current scholarship-preparedness disparity amongst the five permanent football-playing PL members is just too great, it seems, to permit full scholarships right away. Fordham already has announced full scholarships, so it seems they're gone (which is very sad). As much as I think Villanova is a great fit and its presence could hasten Georgetown's rise, its alumni would screech at what necessarily would be viewed by them as a step down. Consider also that the Council of Presidents, which ultimately makes these decisions, consist only of the eight full-time, all-sports members. Fordham and Georgetown are not included.


Bogus,

This is twice now I've read you posting this or something similar about the Council of Presidents and the voting for FB scholarships and it is just not true. Attached is a link to the PL Policy and Procedure Manual.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/patr/genrel/auto_pdf/PolicyandProcedures2009-10.pdf

The prohibition on FB scholarships is an Operational Bylaw of the league [Page 39 of the above link.]

Excerpts from two sections on page 17 of the above link regarding associate membership:


Associate members shall designate appropriate representatives as required by the League Code to attend and participate in the discussions of the Council of Presidents, Policy Committee and Committee of Directors of Athletics. Such representatives, however, will participate in an ex-officio capacity without entitlement to vote, except with respect to those matters which concern the sport(s) for which the institution was granted the status of associate membership....

... On matters in which the representative of an associate member is granted the right to vote, each regular and associate member shall have one vote.

Now, how are operational bylaws changed? Under voting on that same page ...


Any amendments to the Operating Bylaws require a majority vote of all members. According to Robert’s Rules of Order, a majority of eight (8) members will require five (5) affirmative votes.

It's not clear to me if Army, Navy, and American would vote on an operating bylaw governing FB, but let's look at both scenarios

1. If Army, Navy, & American do not vote on FB scholarships, there are 7 voting members and 4 votes in favor (a simple majority to change an operational bylaw) are required to pass. What Army, Navy, & American think doesn't matter.

2. If Army, Navy & Amrican vote on FB scholarships, there are 10 voting members on FB scholarships, which would require a simple majority to pass or 6 votes.

So, in this scenario, while Army, Navy, & American may have some sway over the decision, if 6 of the 7 FB playing members decide scholarships are OK, what Army, Navy & American think doesn't matter. And I'm not sure FB schoalrships have a significant impact on Army, Navy, & American, so I would hope they would pass on their votes, see how the other 7 vote and then simply vote with the majority. And if it's a 4-3 split among the FB members, then only 2 of the 3 would be needed to pass.

[DFW HOYA]

I don't think the problem is a majority vote--by all accounts, Lehigh, Colgate, Holy Cross and Fordham is a likely voting bloc.

The problem is crafting a proposal that won't marginalize the other three to the point where they start looking to other conferences to stay competitive (and with an autobid, the NEC now qualifies as a option), and in doing so, potentially implode the league.

[DetroitFlyer]

Although hard to confirm, I hear that the Ivy League is now more open to scheduling games with the PFL.... Truth be told, from an "aid model" the PFL is closer to the Ivy League than the PL. The PFL does not have an AI.... So, it kind of evens out the money difference between the PFL and the Ivy League. Now, I do not see the Ivy's rushing to play Morehead State, Valpo or Campbell just yet, but, Dayton, Marist, Drake, USD and Butler all offer attractive and competitive games going forward.... Even JU offers a potential trip to sunny Florida.... Stay tuned.

[Bogus Megapardus]

As I read the Manual, changes to the Operational By-Laws are by majority vote, so a vote allowing scholarships in football can be passed by less than all members. It is equally unclear to me if associate members can vote to change the Operational By-Laws, but the decision to allow Fordham to play with football scholarships was made, according to the Manual, by the "Council of Presidents." If a majority of those entitled to vote (whomsoever they might be) decide against the wishes of say, Lafayette and Bucknell, to allow scholarships, the Operation By-Laws can be amended according to the wishes of the majority (including any mandatory minimum or maximum level of scholarships). Then, of course, that's the end of the Patriot League as currently constituted.

The decision to admit or re-admit a permanent or an associate league member must be by "by a unanimous vote of all regular member institutions."

[Bogus Megapardus]

I don't think the problem is a majority vote--by all accounts, Lehigh, Colgate, Holy Cross and Fordham is a likely voting bloc.

The problem is crafting a proposal that won't marginalize the other three to the point where they start looking to other conferences to stay competitive (and with an autobid, the NEC now qualifies as a option), and in doing so, potentially implode the league.

Or, the desire might well be to marginalize the other three, which will engender the same result.

[CrusaderBob]

I don't think the problem is a majority vote--by all accounts, Lehigh, Colgate, Holy Cross and Fordham is a likely voting bloc.

The problem is crafting a proposal that won't marginalize the other three to the point where they start looking to other conferences to stay competitive (and with an autobid, the NEC now qualifies as a option), and in doing so, potentially implode the league.

Understood DFW.

Over the years ther's been much said about how schools will vote and many questions and specualtion about how many affirmative votes would be needed to carry scholarships.

I've posted this information before and with Bogus Megapardus presenting, for lack of a better term, bogus information, particularly about GU & FU's input to the process, I thought it was worth posting again.

And yes I know that it's not clear whether or not FU & GU have been granted a vote in this, but seriously would either want to be associate members if they were not allowed to vote on Operational By-Laws in football?

[DetroitFlyer]

Lost in this whole debate is the entire concept on which the PFL was founded. Remember the I-AAA proposal for a unique level of Division I football sans athletic scholarships? If this had ever been made viable, I have no doubt that MANY more schools would be playing football, and far fewer schools would be dropping football. Of course the NCAA never accepted the idea, and in fact basically black-balled it by banning the PFL, MAAC and NEC from the playoffs, while not allowing a playoff for non-athletic scholarship teams....

The PL really should be a PFL type league. It fits far better with the mission of the PL schools than trying to be more like good ole "State U". Of course it will not happen for many reasons, but if logic ruled the day, this would be a no-brainer....

I-AAA: PFL, Ivy, PL, whats left of the NEC, maybe some HBCU's, and no doubt a number of new teams that would sign up. Set up a unique playoff, allow games across the I-AA / I-AAA division to count, allow I-AAA to play I-A as counters and move on. This is not really all that complicated. It is just sad that there are far too many roadblocks to ever see this come to fruition.

So, we will just sit back and watch pointy headed college presidents kill football programs....

Sad....

[RichH2]

Going scholarship is a majority vote. Membership in PL is a unanimous vote of all schools. There are enuf votes for merit aid , where the issue becomes thorny is the details and $$$$$. Merit aid alone will not force GU's hand , but a minimum level will. Likewise BU and LC have significant short term compliance issues that must be balanced. A combo proposal with permission for schollies to be phased in slowlyand combined with need grants seems best to address needs of GU,BU and LC but not for FU at 60. Have no idea what HC's position is at all. FU at 60 and the rest at 10-15 or so harkens back to the HC days of yore , which no one , other than Cross wants to repeat.

We must take into acct interior opposition possible at each school that may change the scenario. LU and Gate are definite and I think Lafayette( for the concept if not the amounts) but the rest are not necessarily written in concrete. It will be interesting and ultimately frustrating IMHO

[jimbo65]

I don't think the problem is a majority vote--by all accounts, Lehigh, Colgate, Holy Cross and Fordham is a likely voting bloc.

The problem is crafting a proposal that won't marginalize the other three to the point where they start looking to other conferences to stay competitive (and with an autobid, the NEC now qualifies as a option), and in doing so, potentially implode the league.
Based on nothing but my opinion, I would have placed HC with the no votes. I realize they led the crusade (pun intended) for basketball schollies, but thought they had a different view re. fball. Can't remember the Jesuit's name, but there was one there who was deadset againt scholarships.

[DFW HOYA]

Going scholarship is a majority vote. Membership in PL is a unanimous vote of all schools. There are enuf votes for merit aid , where the issue becomes thorny is the details and $$$$$. Merit aid alone will not force GU's hand , but a minimum level will. Likewise BU and LC have significant short term compliance issues that must be balanced. A combo proposal with permission for schollies to be phased in slowlyand combined with need grants seems best to address needs of GU,BU and LC but not for FU at 60. Have no idea what HC's position is at all. FU at 60 and the rest at 10-15 or so harkens back to the HC days of yore , which no one , other than Cross wants to repeat.

We must take into acct interior opposition possible at each school that may change the scenario. LU and Gate are definite and I think Lafayette( for the concept if not the amounts) but the rest are not necessarily written in concrete. It will be interesting and ultimately frustrating IMHO

Well said. This may be how it all works out, which is probably not enough for Fordham when all is said and done.

[GannonFan]

Of course the NCAA never accepted the idea, and in fact basically black-balled it by banning the PFL, MAAC and NEC from the playoffs...

I agreed with a lot of your post, but again, no one ever "banned" these teams from the playoffs. It was always about scheduling and for many, they either didn't have a good enough schedule (PFL, MAAC) or they had the schedule and didn't win enough of the games (NEC). And of course, some conferences never asked to have an autobid...as Yeager's shock about the Hofstra situation has shown, it's the college presidents that run things, the conference commissioner is just a mouthpiece.

[Fordham]

Several different threads going on here - I'll try to address a few of them separately (and also start a new one).

1) Why does Hofstra and NU giving up football make the PL less likely to go full scholarship, as several have stated in various threads? I really do think that this one is understandable on the surface but not in detail. Need-based aid is a wasteful way of spending if you realize that you're focusing your aid on a portion of the total market. There is no other decision that a PL school could make (other than LC & BU with their TItle IX issues) that could allow them to potentially improve the program (not saying how much it will improve them since I think it will help but not be some absurd bump) without spending a dime more. Does everyone agree with that or no? If 'no', why ... what am I missing? That means that this shouldn't really impact the scholarship decision by the PL except for those who would like to use it as a smokescreen for a delay (again, unless someone has more 'steak' for the 'what am i missing?' question above). It doesn't mean that the HU & NU program-killings don't cause worry, but just that the worry has nothing to do with offering scholarships and everything to do with having a budget of several million (need-based or full scholarship) with little school support to show for it.

2) Do we agree that the range of acceptable-to-most choices are either a) offer the limited amount you discuss above where we are forced to pull back and are therefore certainly not happy (we don't know how LU or CU would feel about that) ... or b) to allow every school to do what they would want (which BU, LC & GU would likely not be in favor of)? I understand why Gtown wouldn't want them since it will almost certainly lead to a greater disparity in the level of play. The one that would be tough to swallow as a Fordham fan is to be held back from making the full scholarship move (and possibly have to give up the pay game to boot) for schools that were using need-based aid as a way around Title IX. Excepting Gtown for a moment (and setting aside any bias' that may have come about from the understandable Fordham-fatigue around here after all of the threads for the past 8 months), isn't 'b' the fairer of the two options? in other words, if someone has to swallow hard on the scholarship decision, shouldn't be the ones who put themselves into the jam in the first place (actually trying to address this without flaming, so apologies if it's coming off that way but I do think it's important to discuss).

Perhaps it's as easy as a saying it's a numbers game - 3 schools don't want them yet and one school is adamant. That's why it would help to know how pro-scholarship Colgate or Lehigh are, I guess.

3) Ivies - if bus-drive-away teams keep dropping in the Northeast, we may need to play them just so we don't have to fly everywhere. I guess that cuts both ways, but does that play into the scholarship decision as well? Before there was simply the nice, warm feeling that many in the PL got from the Ivy association, but do these moves help solidify their importance to our schedule ... and therefore make it more likely that we do what they want us to do?

Regardless, these developments this week have definitely spooked me quite a bit. It doesn't make me any less pro-scholarship but it does make me jittery over hitching our program's wagon to a group of state-school-only programs. Really hope it can work out with the private schools in the PL and it's really, really a shame that HU and NU aren't part of the league. xsmhx

[Bogus Megapardus]

I've posted this information before and with Bogus Megapardus presenting, for lack of a better term, bogus information, particularly about GU & FU's input to the process, I thought it was worth posting again.


It's a damn good thing I'm posting on a message board and not making policy decisions! :D

[PurpleJersey]

Hi All

I am a new member and have been following this well thought, well written thread, particualrly as it applies to the PL, because I am an older HC grad. I downloaded and read the Patriot League Manual document which includes a History section. That section discusses how the Colobnial, now Patriot League came about --and how the Ivy League was instrumental in its formation -- as an Ivy sibling. The benefit to both leagues was stated:

"The Ivies would havea group of schools with which to compete on an equal finanacial aid basis, maintain Division 1-AA status and have a reasonable hope of winning their share of contests. The Colonial League teams would benefit from the national media exposure that competition with the Ivies would bring, and this exposure would reinforce the philosophies and academic similarities of the institutons oin the Colonial league as compared with those in the Ivy league."

A paragraph earlier, there is a statement about the similar academic and athletic philosophies of the schools in the two leagues. There is also a telling quote from Alan Childs, first Colonial league director:" College athletes must be students first. A quality education is the most important part of their college experience. if intercollegiate athletics and educational programs prove to be incompatible, the intercollegiate atheltics must leave the campus."

If the above is the philosophiocal leaning of the PTB, I think the recent collapse of two CAA tems can never be thought to lead the Council of Presidents to change their business model. Wwhile I do not agree with this approach, I dndo not see the PL adding more scholarships. In fact, I am more worried about it going in the other direction for football. (I recognize that this is does not seem to be the philosophy as it aplies to b'ball. Perhaps because it is an inherently cheaper sport to sponsor.)

[CFBfan]

Hi All

I am a new member and have been following this well thought, well written thread, particualrly as it applies to the PL, because I am an older HC grad. I downloaded and read the Patriot League Manual document which includes a History section. That section discusses how the Colobnial, now Patriot League came about --and how the Ivy League was instrumental in its formation -- as an Ivy sibling. The benefit to both leagues was stated:

"The Ivies would havea group of schools with which to compete on an equal finanacial aid basis, maintain Division 1-AA status and have a reasonable hope of winning their share of contests. The Colonial League teams would benefit from the national media exposure that competition with the Ivies would bring, and this exposure would reinforce the philosophies and academic similarities of the institutons oin the Colonial league as compared with those in the Ivy league."

A paragraph earlier, there is a statement about the similar academic and athletic philosophies of the schools in the two leagues. There is also a telling quote from Alan Childs, first Colonial league director:" College athletes must be students first. A quality education is the most important part of their college experience. if intercollegiate athletics and educational programs prove to be incompatible, the intercollegiate atheltics must leave the campus."

If the above is the philosophiocal leaning of the PTB, I think the recent collapse of two CAA tems can never be thought to lead the Council of Presidents to change their business model. Wwhile I do not agree with this approach, I dndo not see the PL adding more scholarships. In fact, I am more worried about it going in the other direction for football. (I recognize that this is does not seem to be the philosophy as it aplies to b'ball. Perhaps because it is an inherently cheaper sport to sponsor.)

what I do not understand and do not agree with is the assumption that athletic scholarships equal weaker student athletes..... this does not have to be the case!! and, there are many great academic institutions that also have solid football programs, Stanford and ND just to name a few!! AND, if you really look at the Ivies, most of their players "get" financial aid.
In short, football scholarships and great students are not mutualy exclusive!

[carney2]

Really hope it can work out with the private schools in the PL...

That's where you belong, despite some of the ramblings from some of your fellow Rams, and too many half-a$$ed comments from other Patriot League posters. I also am hoping that things work out and you stay home.

[Seawolf97]

After reading all the posts about Fordham moving into the CAA and there are many and all informative just a word of warning to Fordham fans. You might be setting yourself up to to be the Norteastern of NYC. A CAA presence in NYC is not the same as a Delaware or JMU. The competition wont be the CAA but in the fall - Jets, Giants, Yankees ( just around the corner) then comes the NBA and NHL. Oh yeah dont forget the Big East. Plus talk is strong in the media that major FBS football will be played in the new stadium. Several games are already scheduled including Notre Dame-Army and maybe a UConn-Oklahoma. If that takes off which I suspect it will you will be home playing a CAA team and few blocks away FBS powers will be teeing it up. Where do you think the media and the crowds will be?
We are as FCS not important to fans in NYC. It is what is here. Add to that maybe upgrading you field. I suspect also SBU will be in the Big South for quite sometime content on playing Liberty and VMI etc. Which isnt all that bad. I think your admins should revisit where they want to be. The Big Apple is rough sports town as was Boston on NU.

[Fordham]

After reading all the posts about Fordham moving into the CAA and there are many and all informative just a word of warning to Fordham fans. You might be setting yourself up to to be the Norteastern of NYC. A CAA presence in NYC is not the same as a Delaware or JMU. The competition wont be the CAA but in the fall - Jets, Giants, Yankees ( just around the corner) then comes the NBA and NHL. Oh yeah dont forget the Big East. Plus talk is strong in the media that major FBS football will be played in the new stadium. Several games are already scheduled including Notre Dame-Army and maybe a UConn-Oklahoma. If that takes off which I suspect it will you will be home playing a CAA team and few blocks away FBS powers will be teeing it up. Where do you think the media and the crowds will be?
We are as FCS not important to fans in NYC. It is what is here. Add to that maybe upgrading you field. I suspect also SBU will be in the Big South for quite sometime content on playing Liberty and VMI etc. Which isnt all that bad. I think your admins should revisit where they want to be. The Big Apple is rough sports town as was Boston on NU.

Seawolf, what part of "It doesn't make me any less pro-scholarship but it does make me jittery over hitching our program's wagon to a group of state-school-only programs." did you not get from my post? xeyebrowx

Seriously, I agree with you. There is much risk with little reward for a move to either the CAA or any full scholarship league for any private school in the Northeast right now (not that they want us anyway).

The question I have is how you are pulling off the travel costs in the Big South for the long term.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The question I have is how you are pulling off the travel costs in the Big South for the long term.

Stony Brook I can understand, given its size. I'd like to know how Davidson, Marist and San Diego sustain their travel budgets.

[Jackman]

Travel costs < Scholarship costs, by a long shot.

[kirkblitz]

CCU to the CAA

[JMU Duke Dog]

http://www.ncaa.com/blog/2009d1football/2009/12/a-pair-of-disappointing-losses.html


Two years from now, Old Dominion is slated to join the CAA's ranks, with Georgia State to follow in 2012. Those additions, Yeagar said, will prevent the league from searching for immediate replacements for Hofstra and Northeastern.

No offense intended to Fordham but expansion for football just does not look to be occuring anytime soon for the CAA as it currently stands. This is most likely the conference for 2012:

North Division
Delaware
Maine
Massachusetts
New Hampshire
Rhode Island
Villanova

South Division
Georgia State
James Madison
Old Dominion
Richmond
Towson
William and Mary

While it is very unfortunate for the players, coaches, and fans involved with the Hofstra and Northeastern football programs, the debate about how to split the divisions among 14 teams is most likely resolved.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Fordham bball lost tonight by 21 to Bowling Green. Please, when you find a place for your football team take your hoops team with you.

[Redwyn]

Fordham bball lost tonight by 21 to Bowling Green. Please, when you find a place for your football team take your hoops team with you.

Stony Brook's looking forward to its game with Fordham on Tuesday. 6-2, hoping for a 7th xpeacex GO SEAWOLVES

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Stony Brook's looking forward to its game with Fordham on Tuesday. 6-2, hoping for a 7th xpeacex GO SEAWOLVES

That should not be a problem. SB has a good team this year. If they come ready to play the Seawolves should be able to put the Rams away.

I don't think people realize how bad Fordham bball is. With all the talk about their football team trying to move forward people need to realize their hoops program is the laughing stock of a very good conference. Their facilities and adminsitrative support are lacking. Fordham needs to look at their athletics as a whole right now. They have some very, very tough decisions to make.

[kirkblitz]

CCU to the CAA

agreed