PL's Femovich Provides Insight into the 'Scholarship Issue"

[ngineer]

Caroline Femovich, Exec. Dir. of the Patriot League spoke at the Lafayette Philadelphia Club this afternoon and answered numerous questions about the scholarship issue for the PL which WILL be addressed in December.

Of particular interest was her indication that HOLY CROSS appears leaning in favor of scholarships as the alumni base has shown interest in supporting a return. Colgate and Lehigh have already indicated their willingness to go down the scholarship path. The question will be whether the League does it all at once or graduated over time. There was a sense that this would start 'gradually' with perhaps only 10-15 scholarships to start with a goal of working toward 40 or so. We could also see a 'gradual' implementation similar to what occured with basketball several years ago where various teams started scholarships at different time frames.

Bottom line is that there appears to be a concerted effort to keep the PL together and work toward scholarships at the same time. Should this happen, the opportunity to expand the football league would be greatly improved. The 'natural' schools who might be interested in joining a PL with scholarships are Richmond, William & Mary and Villanova, although she thought UR and WM maybe too 'tied into' the Virginia scene to make a break. The expansion of the CAA, however, is probably going to be a contributing factor to this issue.

So December could be more interesting this year than usual.xnodx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Interesting stuff. If Holy Cross is for, that means four of the five full members are for it - and it seems like scholarships, albeit in a phased-in way, are coming to everyone eventually.

Woo Hoo!

THe only remaining questions would be; Will Georgetown sign up for FB schollies, and would it be enough for Bucknell to leave the PL or drop football?

My 2c:

Bucknell - I have to believe they'll stick around and keep football.

Georgetown - it will all depend on the new AD.

[Franks Tanks]

I am not sure when Lehigh and Colgate announced they are good with scholarships, but Lafayette will not be left behind this time as we were in B-ball. The admin realizes that our B-ball program has suffered greatly due to our delay in that area. The Kirby's and Mr. Bourger will not allow us to fall behind on the gridiron. We didnt build a 30 million dollar stadium to cheap out on scholarships.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Richmond? William & Mary? Woo Hoo! I knew there was talk of these two years ago and that one or both would have joined if allowed to keep scholarships.

Again, question to ngineer, LFN, FranksTanks, IvyTalk - What will this do to our Ivy schedule? I do not want to drop our traditional games against Penn/Princeton/Columbia, which far predate either league.

All the bad things I said this week about ngineer and his waste-pit of a university hereby are taken back. Thanks for the info!

[Pard4Life]

YOU were at a Lafyette event? I was thinking of going to this... I work around the corner... then I could have thrown a brown pie in your face... SHOOT!!! Thanks for the update.

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown - it will all depend on the new AD.

No, it probably won't, but that's unique to Georgetown's setup.

People miss the larger issue here: if Georgetown converted its 2009 budget to scholarships tomorrow, it is still not competitive in admissions, in facilities, or certainly in finances. A $1.5 million budget with the PL's academic index doesn't go away whether you call it financial aid, scholarships, or free tuition.

If Georgetown and Bucknell stayed right where they are with financial aid, the PL isn't going to get rid of them anyway, because expansion remains a shell game. W&M and UR are not coming.

[Bogus Megapardus]

No, it probably won't, but that's unique to Georgetown's setup.

People miss the larger issue here: if Georgetown converted its 2009 budget to scholarships tomorrow, it is still not competitive in admissions, in facilities, or certainly in finances. A $1.5 million budget with the PL's academic index doesn't go away whether you call it financial aid, scholarships, or free tuition.

If Georgetown and Bucknell stayed right where they are with financial aid, the PL isn't going to get rid of them anyway, because expansion remains a shell game. W&M and UR are not coming.

You're such a spoil-sport, DFW. I know, I know, you say you're a realist, but it might happen. Just imagine if Bertram W. Multisport, that noted Hoya alum, coughs up 20 mil or so to finish the stadium. I think Georgetown will go along. Just imagine if Richmond, Villanova and W&M join. You'd have no choice then, would you? Participation in such a conference would be a must for your alums.

[Sader87]

Great news. I think HC's intrangience on this matter has been due not to "embarass" Fr Brooks who was basically the architect of the PL when he was the HC president in the 80's.

I also think an impetus for such a move has been the growing divide between the PL and the CAA in general lately as well as leagues like the NEC nipping at our heels.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You're such a spoil-sport, DFW. I know, I know, you say you're a realist, but it might happen. Just imagine if Bertram W. Multisport, that noted Hoya alum, coughs up 20 mil or so to finish the stadium. I think Georgetown will go along. Just imagine if Richmond, Villanova and W&M join. You'd have no choice then, would you? Participation in such a conference would be a must for your alums.

The question is, is it still an imperative for Georgetown if the schools aren't Richmond, William & Mary or Villanova - and instead are Hofstra, Bryant or Northeastern?

Here's another question, tied to Georgetown as well. With football scholarships, might VMI bite at all-sports membership? With a tie-in to Army, Navy in non-football sports and no drop in their football program's scholarships, it might be simply too tempting. VMI's only real hesitation, I think, about PL membership was the drop to "non-scholarship" football, and with phased in scholarships that wouldn't be an issue anymore.

But crucial to that, IMO, would be the retention of Georgetown, a southern partner in football and a potential southern rival.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I also think an impetus for such a move has been the growing divide between the PL and the CAA in general lately as well as leagues like the NEC nipping at our heels.

No doubt. I'm convinced, too, that several first-round beatings in the FCS playoffs have brought home the thought that in order to keep up, scholarships are part of the equation. And it's not just state schools like JMU: schools that PL presidents think of as peers, such as Richmond and Villanova, are the schools that are championship contenders. Losing to JMU would have been bad last year, but losing to Villanova was worse.

[DetroitFlyer]

Wow, all the way to 40 scholarships! Maybe the PL can remain somewhat competitive with the NEC.... If this works, and the PL hangs together, thank the NEC for reducing the athletic scholarship "minimum".

So, let's assume the PFL obtains an automatic bid.... What would keep Georgetown in the PL? Georgetown seems like a great fit for he PFL.... They just have to get over that MAAC syndrome thing.... Ask Marist how joining the PFL has worked out....

By the way, NO CAA teams are going to join a conference with a 40 athletic scholarship limit....

[Bogus Megapardus]

LFN - where does it leave the Ivies, though. The PL was created, in essence, to give them someone to play.

[DetroitFlyer]

LFN - where does it leave the Ivies, though. The PL was created, in essence, to give them someone to play.

Simple.... The Ivys will be playing PFL teams going forward. Yet another great reason to add Georgetown to the PFL fold.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Wow, all the way to 40 scholarships! Maybe the PL can remain somewhat competitive with the NEC.... If this works, and the PL hangs together, thank the NEC for reducing the athletic scholarship "minimum".

So, let's assume the PFL obtains an automatic bid.... What would keep Georgetown in the PL? Georgetown seems like a great fit for he PFL.... They just have to get over that MAAC syndrome thing.... Ask Marist how joining the PFL has worked out....

By the way, NO CAA teams are going to join a conference with a 40 athletic scholarship limit....

Don't be so sure. The PL already has "scholarship equivalents." The full rides can be used as a carrot for those who do not want to go through the grant in aid process for whatever reason. The PL already competes fairly well in its present form. It might not need 63 rides to be on par.

[Sader87]

Simple.... The Ivys will be playing PFL teams going forward. Yet another great reason to add Georgetown to the PFL fold.

I'm sure the Ivy League can't wait for the Princeton-Morehead St and Harvard-Jacksonville match-ups.

[DetroitFlyer]

Don't be so sure. The PL already has "scholarship equivalents." The full rides can be used as a carrot for those who do not want to go through the grant in aid process for whatever reason. The PL already competes fairly well in its present form. It might not need 63 rides to be on par.

The PFL is reasonably competitive with zero athletic scholarships.... Still, I'm not expecting Richmond to come begging to join the PFL....

Maybe some level of athletic scholarships is needed to compete in the Northeast.... I'm not 100% convinced, but I can see where a SFUP of the NEC would really struggle to get any players without scholarships. The PL attracts players because it is well the PL.... It has worked for the Ivy and PL for a long time.... Now, the coaches whine that they cannot compete with non-athletic scholarship players.... I'll tell you what, put Jim Harbaugh in any head coaching job in the PL, even Georgetown, and they would be competitive with anybody in a few years....

I cannot wait until the PFL wins a playoff game or two in a few years....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The PFL is reasonably competitive with zero athletic scholarships.... Still, I'm not expecting Richmond to come begging to join the PFL....

Maybe some level of athletic scholarships is needed to compete in the Northeast.... I'm not 100% convinced, but I can see where a SFUP of the NEC would really struggle to get any players without scholarships. The PL attracts players because it is well the PL.... It has worked for the Ivy and PL for a long time.... Now, the coaches whine that they cannot compete with non-athletic scholarship players.... I'll tell you what, put Jim Harbaugh in any head coaching job in the PL, even Georgetown, and they would be competitive with anybody in a few years....

I cannot wait until the PFL wins a playoff game or two in a few years....

This isn't a bad point at all. Not just because of the FBS/FCS world we see, where more and more kids are getting schollies, but D-II and below as well, where the top PSAC conferences are also frequently getting kids.

Where you're wrong, though, is with the Ivy League. Those financial aid packages are in effect scholarships for the vast majority, if not all, of their players.

Time to go to Goodman. Lafayette sucks.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The PFL is reasonably competitive with zero athletic scholarships.... Still, I'm not expecting Richmond to come begging to join the PFL....


No question, just as the PL and the Ivy compete with zero athletic scholarships. I don't expect Richmond to come begging, either. But there was a point when Richmond gave very serious consideration to joining the PL. It would not drop its scholarship program, however. That hurdle could soon be removed for other peer institution who might like to find a home in the PL.

[MplsBison]

I don't think the PL should be allowed to mix and match on scholarships and grants-in-aid.

You should either have to be 100% of your aid as scholarships or 100% grants-in-aid.

[MplsBison]

No, it probably won't, but that's unique to Georgetown's setup.

People miss the larger issue here: if Georgetown converted its 2009 budget to scholarships tomorrow, it is still not competitive in admissions, in facilities, or certainly in finances. A $1.5 million budget with the PL's academic index doesn't go away whether you call it financial aid, scholarships, or free tuition.

If Georgetown and Bucknell stayed right where they are with financial aid, the PL isn't going to get rid of them anyway, because expansion remains a shell game. W&M and UR are not coming.

You better hope not.

Otherwise, the PL has zero incentive to keep sand bagging Gtown around anymore.

Maybe Detroit is right? Gtown v Morehead State for homecoming?

[DetroitFlyer]

You better hope not.

Otherwise, the PL has zero incentive to keep sand bagging Gtown around anymore.

Maybe Detroit is right? Gtown v Morehead State for homecoming?

Even though Morehead State has struggled this year, (no QB to speak of....), they did defeat a traditional, FCS, athletic scholarship team this season, on that team's home field.... (NC Central). I'm not sure that GT could defeat MSU this year, but it would be a good game....

[MplsBison]

For the 2007-08 school year, Morehead state's football team had operating expenses of $259k and total expenses of $744k (meaning they spent $485k on aid to football players?)


For the 2008-09 school year, NC Central's football team had operating expenses of $263k and total expenses of $1.6M.


Not sure why the OPE tool doesn't have last season's data for Morehead state, but anyway it doesn't look like NC Central has much of a financial advantage over Morehead.

[Go...gate]

Wow, all the way to 40 scholarships! Maybe the PL can remain somewhat competitive with the NEC.... If this works, and the PL hangs together, thank the NEC for reducing the athletic scholarship "minimum".

So, let's assume the PFL obtains an automatic bid.... What would keep Georgetown in the PL? Georgetown seems like a great fit for he PFL.... They just have to get over that MAAC syndrome thing.... Ask Marist how joining the PFL has worked out....

By the way, NO CAA teams are going to join a conference with a 40 athletic scholarship limit....

Hey, thank God for small favors. I like the Patriot League.

[Go...gate]

Simple.... The Ivys will be playing PFL teams going forward. Yet another great reason to add Georgetown to the PFL fold.

....and Bucknell?

[Go...gate]

Caroline Femovich, Exec. Dir. of the Patriot League spoke at the Lafayette Philadelphia Club this afternoon and answered numerous questions about the scholarship issue for the PL which WILL be addressed in December.

Of particular interest was her indication that HOLY CROSS appears leaning in favor of scholarships as the alumni base has shown interest in supporting a return. Colgate and Lehigh have already indicated their willingness to go down the scholarship path. The question will be whether the League does it all at once or graduated over time. There was a sense that this would start 'gradually' with perhaps only 10-15 scholarships to start with a goal of working toward 40 or so. We could also see a 'gradual' implementation similar to what occured with basketball several years ago where various teams started scholarships at different time frames.

Bottom line is that there appears to be a concerted effort to keep the PL together and work toward scholarships at the same time. Should this happen, the opportunity to expand the football league would be greatly improved. The 'natural' schools who might be interested in joining a PL with scholarships are Richmond, William & Mary and Villanova, although she thought UR and WM maybe too 'tied into' the Virginia scene to make a break. The expansion of the CAA, however, is probably going to be a contributing factor to this issue.

So December could be more interesting this year than usual.xnodx

I think this is great. I wish Colgate would do something like this. Our NYC or Regional clubs should have her as a speaker.

[maristdb89]

Wow, all the way to 40 scholarships! Maybe the PL can remain somewhat competitive with the NEC.... If this works, and the PL hangs together, thank the NEC for reducing the athletic scholarship "minimum".

So, let's assume the PFL obtains an automatic bid.... What would keep Georgetown in the PL? Georgetown seems like a great fit for he PFL.... They just have to get over that MAAC syndrome thing.... Ask Marist how joining the PFL has worked out....

By the way, NO CAA teams are going to join a conference with a 40 athletic scholarship limit....

We're very happy with PFL and Gtown would be as well. xthumbsupx It's a better fit for the program. The Gtown alums I speak with like the PFL option.

[Go...gate]

We're very happy with PFL and Gtown would be as well. xthumbsupx It's a better fit for the program. The Gtown alums I speak with like the PFL option.

Interesting. OK, let's assume that the PL does go to scholarships and Fordham stays.

Bucknell
Colgate
Fordham
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh

Do we just stay a six-team league? I think it is possible. I also think it would be one hell of a league, especially if the scholarships drift into the high 50's for all the schools.

[maristdb89]

Interesting. OK, let's assume that the PL does go to scholarships and Fordham stays.

Bucknell
Colgate
Fordham
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh

Do we just stay a six-team league? I think it is possible. I also think it would be one hell of a league, especially if the scholarships drift into the high 50's for all the schools.

I agree. A very solid league. As the schollies drift to the 50s look to expand. But I don't think Nova or W&M will be coming the CAA fits them too well.

[DFW HOYA]

The Pioneer is NOT an option. No one at Georgetown supports this.

[MplsBison]

The Pioneer is NOT an option. No one at Georgetown supports this.

What other option do you have if PL says "get competitive scholarship numbers or get out"?

[maristdb89]

What other option do you have if PL says "get competitive scholarship numbers or get out"?

Club FB

[MplsBison]

Club FB

No...that wouldn't match up with the Gtown admin wet dream of being in the Ivy League.

[Go...gate]

I agree. A very solid league. As the schollies drift to the 50s look to expand. But I don't think Nova or W&M will be coming the CAA fits them too well.

I agree. What about you guys?

[maristdb89]

I agree. What about you guys?

Probably not. Marist is a BB school. There was talk about going full PL and leaving the MAAC. But the BB crowd wants to stay in the MAAC. While, I like the PL, the PFL fits us better right now.

[DetroitFlyer]

The Pioneer is NOT an option. No one at Georgetown supports this.

Probably just your personal opinion. I doubt that many at GT support 0fer seasons....

[JD51]

Probably not. Marist is a BB school. There was talk about going full PL and leaving the MAAC. But the BB crowd wants to stay in the MAAC. While, I like the PL, the PFL fits us better right now.

I agree that the PFL is a good fit for Marist and I don't believe the PL ever really considered Marist a viable option in terms of academic and athletic fit (even prior to talk of scholarships). Marist may be a BB school (especially womens b-ball), but I don't see the MAAC having an advantage over PL in BB.

Scholarships seem like a good move for the PL. I'd be concerned what the long term OOC options would be for the PFL. If PL goes scholarship and the NEC increases scholarship (and lets face it, the Ivies aren't going to be beating down the door to schedule PFL opponents) there will be slim pickings for FCS OOC games for the Pioneer teams.

[HoyaMetanoia]

Probably just your personal opinion. I doubt that many at GT support 0fer seasons....

While of course we play to win (as questionable as that may seem at times), it seems that another aspect of football at Georgetown is to use the sport as a vehicle to unify the school, even without scholarships, in a model similar to the Ivies.

There is no reason for Georgetown to join the Pioneer League under that logic. When Georgetown was in the MAAC, it played a bunch of schools that nobody on campus knew much about and were not peer institutions. Games were won, but nobody really seemed to notice because it still wasn't scholarship football and the team was playing schools that no one on campus had ever heard of or had any connection to.

The Pioneer League would be a lot like the MAAC in that sense. There really are no peer institutions (while Davidson is a very good school, there aren't a lot of overlaps in the applicant pool and its prestige on a national scale doesn't compare. And whether you agree with that or not, the point is that Davidson would be the only school that is a fringe peer) and the travel costs would far outweigh the performance gains (if any).

[DFW HOYA]

While of course we play to win (as questionable as that may seem at times), it seems that another aspect of football at Georgetown is to use the sport as a vehicle to unify the school, even without scholarships, in a model similar to the Ivies.

There is no reason for Georgetown to join the Pioneer League under that logic. When Georgetown was in the MAAC, it played a bunch of schools that nobody on campus knew much about and were not peer institutions. Games were won, but nobody really seemed to notice because it still wasn't scholarship football and the team was playing schools that no one on campus had ever heard of or had any connection to.

The Pioneer League would be a lot like the MAAC in that sense. There really are no peer institutions (while Davidson is a very good school, there aren't a lot of overlaps in the applicant pool and its prestige on a national scale doesn't compare. And whether you agree with that or not, the point is that Davidson would be the only school that is a fringe peer) and the travel costs would far outweigh the performance gains (if any).

Well said.

[Dane96]

I agree that the PFL is a good fit for Marist and I don't believe the PL ever really considered Marist a viable option in terms of academic and athletic fit (even prior to talk of scholarships). Marist may be a BB school (especially womens b-ball), but I don't see the MAAC having an advantage over PL in BB.

Scholarships seem like a good move for the PL. I'd be concerned what the long term OOC options would be for the PFL. If PL goes scholarship and the NEC increases scholarship (and lets face it, the Ivies aren't going to be beating down the door to schedule PFL opponents) there will be slim pickings for FCS OOC games for the Pioneer teams.

NEC will be at 40 in 2012...but rumor has it it could be going up. Rumors have been fully correct with first the NEC going scholly...then 30...then 40.

[maristdb89]

While of course we play to win (as questionable as that may seem at times), it seems that another aspect of football at Georgetown is to use the sport as a vehicle to unify the school, even without scholarships, in a model similar to the Ivies.

There is no reason for Georgetown to join the Pioneer League under that logic. When Georgetown was in the MAAC, it played a bunch of schools that nobody on campus knew much about and were not peer institutions. Games were won, but nobody really seemed to notice because it still wasn't scholarship football and the team was playing schools that no one on campus had ever heard of or had any connection to.

The Pioneer League would be a lot like the MAAC in that sense. There really are no peer institutions (while Davidson is a very good school, there aren't a lot of overlaps in the applicant pool and its prestige on a national scale doesn't compare. And whether you agree with that or not, the point is that Davidson would be the only school that is a fringe peer) and the travel costs would far outweigh the performance gains (if any).

OK - But where does Gtown go from here.

There were maybe 1K folks at the game today. There was a bigger "Welcome Fordham" tailgate than anything Gtown had. If "unifying" the school is the objective, that's not happening. In fact, it's probably going the opposite way. As for the peer school point I really don't know if that matters, particularly when you've won maybe 6 games over the last 3 years. Finally, if the PL does go schollies, is Gtown really going to follow? It's less about "unifying" and "peers" as it is having FB.

Understand that, I'd like to see Gtown competitive again. I only think that the PFL might be part of that equation. xpeacex

[DFW HOYA]

OK - But where does Gtown go from here.

There were maybe 1K folks at the game today. There was a bigger "Welcome Fordham" tailgate than anything Gtown had. If "unifying" the school is the objective, that's not happening. In fact, it's probably going the opposite way. As for the peer school point I really don't know if that matters, particularly when you've won maybe 6 games over the last 3 years.

1. The attendance was 2,439.
2. Hard to unify anything at 0-11.
3. Peer schools still matter.
4. It's four games in three years, but who's counting... xmadx

[Go...gate]

While of course we play to win (as questionable as that may seem at times), it seems that another aspect of football at Georgetown is to use the sport as a vehicle to unify the school, even without scholarships, in a model similar to the Ivies.

There is no reason for Georgetown to join the Pioneer League under that logic. When Georgetown was in the MAAC, it played a bunch of schools that nobody on campus knew much about and were not peer institutions. Games were won, but nobody really seemed to notice because it still wasn't scholarship football and the team was playing schools that no one on campus had ever heard of or had any connection to.

The Pioneer League would be a lot like the MAAC in that sense. There really are no peer institutions (while Davidson is a very good school, there aren't a lot of overlaps in the applicant pool and its prestige on a national scale doesn't compare. And whether you agree with that or not, the point is that Davidson would be the only school that is a fringe peer) and the travel costs would far outweigh the performance gains (if any).

One would hope that the PL moving in that direction would be a "flash point" of sorts for the Georgetown program.

[HoyaMetanoia]

OK - But where does Gtown go from here.

There were maybe 1K folks at the game today. There was a bigger "Welcome Fordham" tailgate than anything Gtown had. If "unifying" the school is the objective, that's not happening. In fact, it's probably going the opposite way. As for the peer school point I really don't know if that matters, particularly when you've won maybe 6 games over the last 3 years. Finally, if the PL does go schollies, is Gtown really going to follow? It's less about "unifying" and "peers" as it is having FB.

Understand that, I'd like to see Gtown competitive again. I only think that the PFL might be part of that equation. xpeacex

You didn't read my post correctly. To many at the university, playing football against peer institutions who play for the same reasons we do is more important than winning. Both would be great, but the university would rather see us play Harvard and lose than beat Iona (which we would certainly do now that they no longer play football). 0-11 is not what anyone wants, but take a year like last year: Would Georgetown rather be 2-8 with a schedule including Yale and Penn or 8-2 with a schedule of Jacksonville and Valparaiso? In the sense of playing institutions where many of our students are drawn from the same pool (including athletic recruits), it is more important to build community with that 2-8 record and schedule.

[maristdb89]

I get it, really I do, but you haven't answered the question. Where does Gtown go from here? There are serious problems with the program (Coach, AD, Stadium, Recruiting, etc.) and more coming (PL Scholly). You mentioned Iona. I'd sure hate to see Gtown go the way of Iona, but know that it is a possibility. A growing possibility.

[HoyaMetanoia]

I get it, really I do, but you haven't answered the question. Where does Gtown go from here? There are serious problems with the program (Coach, AD, Stadium, Recruiting, etc.) and more coming (PL Scholly). You mentioned Iona. I'd sure hate to see Gtown go the way of Iona, but know that it is a possibility. A growing possibility.

Outside of the Ivy League? xlolx

I really have no idea where we go from here. I guess the first step is to hire a new coach, but barring any football alum winning the lotto, he's going to be bringing a knife to a gunfight in terms of facilities and other monetary support. It's a sad reality, but it seems like we will just try to ignore the rest of the league's gains through scholarships and "try our best" with what we have.

[maristdb89]

Outside of the Ivy League? xlolx

I really have no idea where we go from here. I guess the first step is to hire a new coach, but barring any football alum winning the lotto, he's going to be bringing a knife to a gunfight in terms of facilities and other monetary support. It's a sad reality, but it seems like we will just try to ignore the rest of the league's gains through scholarships and "try our best" with what we have.

Well good luck. Look forward to playing you next year.

[Go...gate]

Outside of the Ivy League? xlolx

I really have no idea where we go from here. I guess the first step is to hire a new coach, but barring any football alum winning the lotto, he's going to be bringing a knife to a gunfight in terms of facilities and other monetary support. It's a sad reality, but it seems like we will just try to ignore the rest of the league's gains through scholarships and "try our best" with what we have.

I know you guys have an "in" with the PL because you are Georgetown, this would be so self-defeating. I hope it does not turn out this way.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Georgetown is not going anywhere. It can't be in the Ivy League, but it can play against the Ivy League, which is what the PL does. DFW is exactly right, which goes back to the question (rhetorical or not) that I keep asking - why do colleges have football teams? The PL supports Georgetown football and it will continue to do so.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Well good luck. Look forward to playing you next year.

Marist plays its entire OOC schedule against Patriot League teams next year, I believe. Why do you suppose that is?

[Go...gate]

Marist plays its entire OOC schedule against Patriot League teams next year, I believe. Why do you suppose that is?

I think that is a left-over from when they were trying to get in the league. Hofstra also went through that after the PL turned them down for full membership (one of the big mistakes the PL made in the early years).

[Bogus Megapardus]

I think that is a left-over from when they were trying to get in the league. Hofstra also went through that after the PL turned them down for full membership (one of the big mistakes the PL made in the early years).

Which begs the question, why does/did Marist want into the PL? I perfectly understand why Marist scheduled as they did. It has to do with why colleges have football teams to begin with.

[maristdb89]

Marist plays its entire OOC schedule against Patriot League teams next year, I believe. Why do you suppose that is?

I think we're going to have a NEC team or two. Why do we play PL teams? Good football, similar program philosophy. Plus a bus trip.

[Go...gate]

Which begs the question, why does/did Marist want into the PL? I perfectly understand why Marist scheduled as they did. It has to do with why colleges have football teams to begin with.

They were a fit due to their location and "non-scholarship" status. Presumably, they would have had some form of scholarship "equivalencies" after a period of membership.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I think we're going to have a NEC team or two. Why do we play PL teams? Good football, similar program philosophy. Plus a bus trip.


You play the PL because you are the company you keep, plain and simple. It goes beyond simple wins and losses or a shot at post-season FCS play. Marist "gets it" in this regard, I assure you.

[carney2]

This post started out well enough, but quickly degenerated into garbage and b _ _ l s _ _ t. Focusing on the bs:

DFW said it, but, as usual, it was ignored: No way in hell that Richmond and/or W&M join the Patriot League. That ship has sailed and won't be coming back this way anytime soon. Stop dreamin'; it ain't gonna happen. Move on. Villanova however, just might be a different story.

Bryant and/or Marist in the Patriot League? Just shoot me now and get it over with.

40 scholarships is crapola. "It's a start" is a crap way of looking at it. Phase-in is OK, but you better be headed somewhere worthwhile or you're not headed anywhere at all

Bucknell is going nowhere. They are joined at the hip with Lafayette and Lehigh, and surgery is occurring year by year to drag in Colgate and make this a Siamese quadruplet. "PFL or drop football." What are you smoking?

I love ngineer to death and trust him as a source, but I would really like to hear the direct quotes that state "HOLY CROSS appears leaning in favor of scholarships." LFN then states that if "Holy Cross is for, that means four of the five full members are for it." That's a heckuva leap since he then indicates that Bucknell is the odd man out. I have seen nothing - absolutely nothing - to indicate that Lafayette is for it. In fact, quite the contrary. Logic says that the Leopards are in one huge financial/Title IX hole in this area, and there is no indication that they will be able or willing to dig out anytime soon.

That's a starter kit but keep flapping your gums. Obviously some folks are enjoying the breeze.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Obviously some folks are enjoying the breeze.

I feel a draft.

What did Femovich announce this at the Lafayette Club, pray tell?

[maristdb89]

why does/did Marist want into the PL?

With the MAAC's FB demise, the PL looked like a fit. Discussions involved Marist going full PL, i.e. all sports. Marist has won the MAAC Commissioner's cup for 7 out of 9 years. But again Marist is a BB school and that lobby was not in favor of moving out of the MAAC. All the scholly talk from PL (years now) didn't help either, as the $$ commitment is just too much. So PFL and it fits our program quite well.

[Bogus Megapardus]

why does/did Marist want into the PL?

With the MAAC's FB demise, the PL looked like a fit. Discussions involved Marist going full PL, i.e. all sports. Marist has won the MAAC Commissioner's cup for 7 out of 9 years. But again Marist is a BB school and that lobby was not in favor of moving out of the MAAC. All the scholly talk from PL (years now) didn't help either, as the $$ commitment is just too much. So PFL and it fits our program quite well.

We're going around in circles here. The PFL is a great fit for Marist and I wish it all the success that it's due.

[maristdb89]

Carney - save the bullet, we're happy in the PFL. Enough from my side.

[Go...gate]

NEC will be at 40 in 2012...but rumor has it it could be going up. Rumors have been fully correct with first the NEC going scholly...then 30...then 40.

Thought it was already there. You have members below this now?

[Go...gate]

This post started out well enough, but quickly degenerated into garbage and b _ _ l s _ _ t. Focusing on the bs:

DFW said it, but, as usual, it was ignored: No way in hell that Richmond and/or W&M join the Patriot League. That ship has sailed and won't be coming back this way anytime soon. Stop dreamin'; it ain't gonna happen. Move on. Villanova however, just might be a different story.

Bryant and/or Marist in the Patriot League? Just shoot me now and get it over with.

40 scholarships is crapola. "It's a start" is a crap way of looking at it. Phase-in is OK, but you better be headed somewhere worthwhile or you're not headed anywhere at all

Bucknell is going nowhere. They are joined at the hip with Lafayette and Lehigh, and surgery is occurring year by year to drag in Colgate and make this a Siamese quadruplet. "PFL or drop football." What are you smoking?

I love ngineer to death and trust him as a source, but I would really like to hear the direct quotes that state "HOLY CROSS appears leaning in favor of scholarships." LFN then states that if "Holy Cross is for, that means four of the five full members are for it." That's a heckuva leap since he then indicates that Bucknell is the odd man out. I have seen nothing - absolutely nothing - to indicate that Lafayette is for it. In fact, quite the contrary. Logic says that the Leopards are in one huge financial/Title IX hole in this area, and there is no indication that they will be able or willing to dig out anytime soon.

That's a starter kit but keep flapping your gums. Obviously some folks are enjoying the breeze.

Not in our lifetime, Carney.

[Go...gate]

This post started out well enough, but quickly degenerated into garbage and b _ _ l s _ _ t. Focusing on the bs:

DFW said it, but, as usual, it was ignored: No way in hell that Richmond and/or W&M join the Patriot League. That ship has sailed and won't be coming back this way anytime soon. Stop dreamin'; it ain't gonna happen. Move on. Villanova however, just might be a different story.

Bryant and/or Marist in the Patriot League? Just shoot me now and get it over with.

40 scholarships is crapola. "It's a start" is a crap way of looking at it. Phase-in is OK, but you better be headed somewhere worthwhile or you're not headed anywhere at all

Bucknell is going nowhere. They are joined at the hip with Lafayette and Lehigh, and surgery is occurring year by year to drag in Colgate and make this a Siamese quadruplet. "PFL or drop football." What are you smoking?

I love ngineer to death and trust him as a source, but I would really like to hear the direct quotes that state "HOLY CROSS appears leaning in favor of scholarships." LFN then states that if "Holy Cross is for, that means four of the five full members are for it." That's a heckuva leap since he then indicates that Bucknell is the odd man out. I have seen nothing - absolutely nothing - to indicate that Lafayette is for it. In fact, quite the contrary. Logic says that the Leopards are in one huge financial/Title IX hole in this area, and there is no indication that they will be able or willing to dig out anytime soon.

That's a starter kit but keep flapping your gums. Obviously some folks are enjoying the breeze.

This has been going on since about 1960, Carney. We all see each other as peer schools, and Cross came in because of its relationship with Colgate.

[Jackman]

Bottom line is that there appears to be a concerted effort to keep the PL together and work toward scholarships at the same time. Should this happen, the opportunity to expand the football league would be greatly improved. The 'natural' schools who might be interested in joining a PL with scholarships are Richmond, William & Mary and Villanova, although she thought UR and WM maybe too 'tied into' the Virginia scene to make a break. The expansion of the CAA, however, is probably going to be a contributing factor to this issue.

The timing of the Patriot League is impeccably terrible as usual, what with all 3 of Richmond, Nova and W&M looking like Championship contenders. Had you done this just 3 years ago, you probably could have had them.

What happens with Fordham if the PL goes the 40 scholarship route? Doesn't Fordham have to have at least 56 scholarships to fulfill its contracts with the FBS teams on their future schedules? Stopping at 40 doesn't make much sense in general. Either meet the minimum to be a counter for bowl eligibility or go smaller.

[Go...gate]

The timing of the Patriot League is impeccably terrible as usual, what with all 3 of Richmond, Nova and W&M looking like Championship contenders. Had you done this just 3 years ago, you probably could have had them.

What happens with Fordham if the PL goes the 40 scholarship route? Doesn't Fordham have to have at least 56 scholarships to fulfill its contracts with the FBS teams on their future schedules? Stopping at 40 doesn't make much sense in general. Either meet the minimum to be a counter for bowl eligibility or go smaller.

Agreed, but what it sounds like is that the PL will do what it did with BB, so schools may have some wiggle room. I expect most schools will creep toward the maximum over time.

[ngineer]

To be clear--I was not at the Lafayette Club Luncheon Friday, but a 'highly reliable source' who was told me of the Q&A that occured and her responses. This must still play out in December, but she did indicate that Holy Cross has shown indications it will support schollies. What is unknown is how and in what form they take and whether there would be a cap for all or anyone. This would all have to worked out by the League Presidents and ADs, BUT the important information is that scholarships are definitely be seriously discussed and the majority of schools are in favor in one form or another.

As for other schools, she indicated schools that would be a good fit and who in the past had shown interest in the PL but didn't join or dropped out for their reasons. You may be correct that at present, UR and WM may feel good about where they are and have left the dock. VU, on the other hand, with the geography may be more interested.

[Go...gate]

To be clear--I was not at the Lafayette Club Luncheon Friday, but a 'highly reliable source' who was told me of the Q&A that occured and her responses. This must still play out in December, but she did indicate that Holy Cross has shown indications it will support schollies. What is unknown is how and in what form they take and whether there would be a cap for all or anyone. This would all have to worked out by the League Presidents and ADs, BUT the important information is that scholarships are definitely be seriously discussed and the majority of schools are in favor in one form or another.

As for other schools, she indicated schools that would be a good fit and who in the past had shown interest in the PL but didn't join or dropped out for their reasons. You may be correct that at present, UR and WM may feel good about where they are and have left the dock. VU, on the other hand, with the geography may be more interested.

Did she list anyone we have not discussed here? I go back to the beginning and I am familiar with the W & M, Davidson and Hofstra stories. Anybody else?

[ngineer]

Did she list anyone we have not discussed here? I go back to the beginning and I am familiar with the W & M, Davidson and Hofstra stories. Anybody else?

Richmond showed interest 5 years ago, but the alums went nuts about giving up scholarships. Same reason WM backed out at the beginning of the league's creation. Supposedly, VU has expressed interest in the PL for all sports other than basketball, if we went to scholarships.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I love ngineer to death and trust him as a source, but I would really like to hear the direct quotes that state "HOLY CROSS appears leaning in favor of scholarships." LFN then states that if "Holy Cross is for, that means four of the five full members are for it." That's a heckuva leap since he then indicates that Bucknell is the odd man out. I have seen nothing - absolutely nothing - to indicate that Lafayette is for it. In fact, quite the contrary. Logic says that the Leopards are in one huge financial/Title IX hole in this area, and there is no indication that they will be able or willing to dig out anytime soon.

Except for the fact that Lehigh just beat them for the second time, and Lehigh is talking about scholarships. Do you think Lafayette is willing to allow Lehigh to pass them with scholarships while they figure things out? I'm assuming that whatever animals that need sacrificing will be sacrificed to make it happen for Lafayette so hat they "keep pace" with Lehigh.

Also, this may be precisely why they will be "phasing it in", to allow for schools to get in Title IX compliance.

[Franks Tanks]

Except for the fact that Lehigh just beat them for the second time, and Lehigh is talking about scholarships. Do you think Lafayette is willing to allow Lehigh to pass them with scholarships while they figure things out? I'm assuming that whatever animals that need sacrificing will be sacrificed to make it happen for Lafayette so hat they "keep pace" with Lehigh.

Also, this may be precisely why they will be "phasing it in", to allow for schools to get in Title IX compliance.

I think all this Lafayette title IX crap in all conjecture. Why would our athletic department and aid reck be different than everyone else...it just doesnt make sense. If the league goes scholly's Lafayette will follow period.

You dont spend 30 million on a stadium to start going 4-7 every year. However is you dont have a new stadium you are perfectly content with 4-7 and 5-6 it appears.

[tribe_pride]

Leave W&M out of these conversations. We are going no where. You never hear W&M bringing up leaving the CAA. Whenever it happens, it's always other conferences (usually the Patriot) bringing it up on their own.

[carney2]

Not in our lifetime, Carney.

Not according to Tavani.

[carney2]

Except for the fact that Lehigh just beat them for the second time, and Lehigh is talking about scholarships. Do you think Lafayette is willing to allow Lehigh to pass them with scholarships while they figure things out? I'm assuming that whatever animals that need sacrificing will be sacrificed to make it happen for Lafayette so hat they "keep pace" with Lehigh.

Also, this may be precisely why they will be "phasing it in", to allow for schools to get in Title IX compliance.

What you say makes sense to the football nuts on this board, as does the "We didn't spend all that $$ on a new stadium to [fill in the uplifting thought of your choice]." The problem is that none of the people making these decisions are married to this "logic." I will be surprised if Lafayette does not somehow and in some way recreate their insanity of the implementation of basketball scholarships. After all, that worked out so well and, as in most things of value these days, we are governed by chimpanzees.

[RichH2]

Peopleseem to forget that originally schollies weren't going to be discussed until end of 2010. Very positive movexrotatehx. Carney is right that AGS logic has no application to various schools' approach to the issue. Phase in for next year. LU admin expecting phase in for this year's recruiting class. Scedule after that and a cap if any unknown now. My source has been correct more often than not over the years. Weplayed ball together and he's one of those ridiculously generous alums for athletics who has been frustrated of late withjust donating partnership money.

[ngineer]

No question the Presidents do not look at this issue the same way we do. A lot of constituencies to be addressed and long-range issues to be considered. Still, if one of those long-range goals to still be a competitive force at this level of football, then a change will be needed.

[DFW HOYA]

One of the intangibles in all this is the likelihood the Ivy will begin to pull out of scheduling agreements with those PL schools who opt for scholarships.

I guess that means more Ivy non-conference games for the Hoyas! xlolx

[ngineer]

I wouldn't see that as a major issue. The Ivies already play some scholarship schools, albeit not on a regular basis. Moreover, some of the Ivies have some long-standing traditional rivalries that would likely continue. I mean Penn plays Villanova every year. Similarly, Lehigh and Lafayette have had significant series with Princeton and Penn, and more recently with Harvard and Yale...and these schools are already, realistically, giving scholarships with their largesse.

This was posted in response to DFW's post about the IL pulling away from the PL if we go scholly. Now I don't see his post????

[Dane96]

Thought it was already there. You have members below this now?

Yes...it is a two a year phase in over the 30 number. So by 2012...we will have all 40.

That said, if thre rumors are true, then you will see that number come quicker.

Remember, Albany is in its "re-up" year; I think they want to keep us...and attrack Stony Brook back home.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Leave W&M out of these conversations. We are going no where. You never hear W&M bringing up leaving the CAA. Whenever it happens, it's always other conferences (usually the Patriot) bringing it up on their own.

Absolutely true, no doubt. The only reason W&M is brought up is because it participated in the original discussions when the league was formed. The only way W&M goes anywhere is if the CAA itself splits up. It's sort of a "schools like W&M" discussion, which is meant as a compliment (although I can see why you might not view it that way). Officials at Villanova and Richmond, at various times and for various reasons, also have been in PL discussions. There is no indication from either school that I am aware of concerning a present intention to leave the CAA.

[DFW HOYA]

Yes...it is a two a year phase in over the 30 number. So by 2012...we will have all 40.


How?

There are four NEC schools (St. Francis, Duquesne, Sacred Heart, Robert Morris) with budgets lower than Georgetown, so how are these four going to be at 40?

[DFW HOYA]

Villanova would effectively be like Army and Navy except their lone non-participatory sport would be BB. Maybe Talley has been told to stand down on this...

Villanova is not going to the PL. Let's move on.

[Go...gate]

Richmond showed interest 5 years ago, but the alums went nuts about giving up scholarships. Same reason WM backed out at the beginning of the league's creation. Supposedly, VU has expressed interest in the PL for all sports other than basketball, if we went to scholarships.

Sorry, my error - I meant anybody we had not previously discussed in connection with possible membership. And now it looks like Northeastern is out of the equation, as well.

[Go...gate]

Not according to Tavani.

Really? Sounds encouraging.

Villanova would effectively be like Army and Navy except their lone non-participatory sport would be BB. Maybe Talley has been told to stand down on this...

[Go...gate]

Villanova is not going to the PL. Let's move on.

Not so fast. If they don't want to go to the CAA North in a conference re-alignment...

[ngineer]

Really? Sounds encouraging.

Villanova would effectively be like Army and Navy except their lone non-participatory sport would be BB. Maybe Talley has been told to stand down on this...

Or maybe he's getting close to retirement. He's been there about 25 years...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Quite honestly, the whole "pulling the plug at Northeastern" really has put me in a state of shock in regards to the PL. I was utterly convinced that Northeastern was going to bolt to the PL in all sports at some point - they'd have been more competitive, facilities wouldn't have been an issue, they'd have had a regional rival almost immediately (Holy Cross), and they would have saved money.

It changes a lot. A whole lot. Most importantly, it removes a school that looked like a prime target for PL football with scholarships.

So who are the real, honest expansion targets now? The CAA needs Hofstra now more than ever. Villanova's not leaving Delaware, and even if they did they're still just an affiliate. William & Mary, Richmond - no way!

The only realistic ones are now either VMI, Marist or NEC teams, or D-III upgrades.

[Go...gate]

Quite honestly, the whole "pulling the plug at Northeastern" really has put me in a state of shock in regards to the PL. I was utterly convinced that Northeastern was going to bolt to the PL in all sports at some point - they'd have been more competitive, facilities wouldn't have been an issue, they'd have had a regional rival almost immediately (Holy Cross), and they would have saved money.

It changes a lot. A whole lot. Most importantly, it removes a school that looked like a prime target for PL football with scholarships.

So who are the real, honest expansion targets now? The CAA needs Hofstra now more than ever. Villanova's not leaving Delaware, and even if they did they're still just an affiliate. William & Mary, Richmond - no way!

The only realistic ones are now either VMI, Marist or NEC teams, or D-III upgrades.

This is what I had heard as well from a source at Princeton. Apparantly, with the economy, the costs had to be the biggest issue and they decided to shut it down.

[bison137]

I don't think the PL should be allowed to mix and match on scholarships and grants-in-aid.

You should either have to be 100% of your aid as scholarships or 100% grants-in-aid.



A number of other schools mix and match their aid already in a number of sports.

[RichH2]

what the heck is Bison talking about, most if not all schools that give less than the max # of scholarships aso give need based aid.

[DFW HOYA]

So who are the real, honest expansion targets now? The CAA needs Hofstra now more than ever. Villanova's not leaving Delaware, and even if they did they're still just an affiliate. William & Mary, Richmond - no way!

The only realistic ones are now either VMI, Marist or NEC teams, or D-III upgrades.

Expansion will depend on the ability (and interest) of the PL to expand as an all-sports conference. Eight teams works fine for basketball, nine a little less so, 12 a whole new ballgame. I think status quo is still the PL motto.

But...

Any chance the PL throws the long ball and offers to take in the entire New England wing of the CAA? I didn't think so.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Any chance the PL throws the long ball and offers to take in the entire New England wing of the CAA? I didn't think so.

Lafayette, Bucknell and Georgetown would be gone. Then it really isn't the Patriot League any longer, is it?

[MplsBison]

what the heck is Bison talking about, most if not all schools that give less than the max # of scholarships aso give need based aid.

I'm talking about aid that is only available to football players. It should either have to be 100% scholarship based or 0% scholarship based.


It may well be true that the school or a private group is giving football players aid, but that aid is available to any enrolled student. Otherwise it has to be counted toward the 63 limit.

[Franks Tanks]

Expansion will depend on the ability (and interest) of the PL to expand as an all-sports conference. Eight teams works fine for basketball, nine a little less so, 12 a whole new ballgame. I think status quo is still the PL motto.

But...

Any chance the PL throws the long ball and offers to take in the entire New England wing of the CAA? I didn't think so.

Why would we add a bunch of state schools we have nothing in common with to the PL?

[Go...gate]

Quite honestly, the whole "pulling the plug at Northeastern" really has put me in a state of shock in regards to the PL. I was utterly convinced that Northeastern was going to bolt to the PL in all sports at some point - they'd have been more competitive, facilities wouldn't have been an issue, they'd have had a regional rival almost immediately (Holy Cross), and they would have saved money.

It changes a lot. A whole lot. Most importantly, it removes a school that looked like a prime target for PL football with scholarships.

So who are the real, honest expansion targets now? The CAA needs Hofstra now more than ever. Villanova's not leaving Delaware, and even if they did they're still just an affiliate. William & Mary, Richmond - no way!

The only realistic ones are now either VMI, Marist or NEC teams, or D-III upgrades.

I don't think there are any realistic ones anymore.

[blukeys]

Quite honestly, the whole "pulling the plug at Northeastern" really has put me in a state of shock in regards to the PL. I was utterly convinced that Northeastern was going to bolt to the PL in all sports at some point - they'd have been more competitive, facilities wouldn't have been an issue, they'd have had a regional rival almost immediately (Holy Cross), and they would have saved money.

It changes a lot. A whole lot. Most importantly, it removes a school that looked like a prime target for PL football with scholarships.

So who are the real, honest expansion targets now? The CAA needs Hofstra now more than ever. Villanova's not leaving Delaware, and even if they did they're still just an affiliate. William & Mary, Richmond - no way!

The only realistic ones are now either VMI, Marist or NEC teams, or D-III upgrades.


You are spot on. Those in the PL who keep up the 'Nova, Richmond, W&M talk need to send me a case of whatever they are drinking. I would have to have something to drink that will erase the memory of these last 2 Hen seasons.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'm talking about aid that is only available to football players. It should either have to be 100% scholarship based or 0% scholarship based.


It may well be true that the school or a private group is giving football players aid, but that aid is available to any enrolled student. Otherwise it has to be counted toward the 63 limit.

It all counts towards the 63 scholarship limit.

[Bogus Megapardus]

D-III upgrades.


My understanding is that the NCAA has made this practically impossible. The only conceivable exception would be Hopkins because of its existing DI lacrosse program (and we know that the President of Lafayette is pretty tight with the Hopkins folks) or RPI with its existing DI hockey program. Or else an existing DI school without football (American U.)

There are really no other Division I colleges outside of the CAA that would be a good fit.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

My understanding is that the NCAA has made this practically impossible. The only conceivable exception would be Hopkins because of its existing DI lacrosse program (and we know that the President of Lafayette is pretty tight with the Hopkins folks) or RPI with its existing DI hockey program. Or else an existing DI school without football (American U.)

There are really no other Division I colleges outside of the CAA that would be a good fit.

Maybe there's a shot at Loyola (MD) starting up football too, but you're right, if pickings were slim before... If Hopkins were interested, they'd be there yesterday, but last time I looked at it there didn't seem to be much interest at all from their side. They're happy being D-III*.

[bostonspider]

I really think the only way you will see UR, W&M and Villanova in the PL for football would be if the CAA totally collapsed, with the North forming a new "Yankee Conference" and UD, JMU, ODU and GSU all deciding to go the FBS route. If that happened, then VU would likely quickly jump to the PL, while UR and W&M might look to the PL, or they might look to the SoCon and Elon, Furman, Samford and Wofford..

[Go...gate]

I really think the only way you will see UR, W&M and Villanova in the PL for football would be if the CAA totally collapsed, with the North forming a new "Yankee Conference" and UD, JMU, ODU and GSU all deciding to go the FBS route. If that happened, then VU would likely quickly jump to the PL, while UR and W&M might look to the PL, or they might look to the SoCon and Elon, Furman, Samford and Wofford..

Other than Carney2, no one has ever been in a position to state that Villanova has any interest in our conference. UR and W & M are ideas which were DOA long ago. It's time we started thinking about staying where we are, keeping Fordham in the conference as a Football mamber, and encouraging Georgetown to make its program more competitive.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Other than Carney2, no one has ever been in a position to state that Villanova has any interest in our conference. UR and W & M are ideas which were DOA long ago. It's time we started thinking about staying where we are, keeping Fordham in the conference as a Football mamber, and encouraging Georgetown to make its program more competitive.

But Fordham is gone already. They're giving 63 scholarships and presumably they won't even pretend to adhere to the academic index. Why does the PL want to try to bring Fordham back?

[Franks Tanks]

But Fordham is gone already. They're giving 63 scholarships and presumably they won't even pretend to adhere to the academic index. Why does the PL want to try to bring Fordham back?

The PL may not want Fordham but we need them and they need us for the time being.

We dont have anyone to replace them, and they have no conference to move to.

Its like a couple staying together for the kids.. we will keep up appearances but everyone will be miserable with the arrangement.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The PL may not want Fordham but we need them and they need us for the time being.

We dont have anyone to replace them, and they have no conference to move to.

Its like a couple staying together for the kids.. we will keep up appearances but everyone will be miserable with the arrangement.

Can't we put an ad in the Tradin' Times for a football team instead?

[carney2]

Other than Carney2, no one has ever been in a position to state that Villanova has any interest in our conference. UR and W & M are ideas which were DOA long ago. It's time we started thinking about staying where we are, keeping Fordham in the conference as a Football mamber, and encouraging Georgetown to make its program more competitive.

And what better source could you ask for?!! And, I did cite higher authority as attribution, so... Oh yeah, I heard it with my own defective ears. No he said, she said. Remember, everything is predicated on the Patriot League "moving forward."

As for Fordham, the clock is suddenly ticking faster and louder. The Northeastern decision turns the CAA North into a bit of chaos that will only be exacerbated if they follow through with their intentions to throw Georgia State in with UNH, UMass, Rhode Island, etc. Fordham to the CAA is suddenly no longer a hallucination. Some folks - on both sides of that divide - may actually view it as a dream come true. If the Patriot League sticks with their traditional policy that a glacial pace is fast enough, and, more to the point, if they adhere to their announced timeline of "a decision by December, 2010," it may be too little, too late. If they are serious about keeping Fordham in the fold, they had better get off their duffs.

[UAalum72]

Yes...it is a two a year phase in over the 30 number. So by 2012...we will have all 40.

That said, if thre rumors are true, then you will see that number come quicker.

Remember, Albany is in its "re-up" year; I think they want to keep us...and attrack Stony Brook back home.
In 2012 the NEC will be allowing up to 40 but not every school will be there; we've speculated whether St. Francis or RMU had a full boat, but Duquesne states openly in their game notes that they have 20 this year and will only be at 24 by 2012

http://www.goduquesne.com/auto_pdf/p_hotos/s_chools/duqu/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/weekly-release

see "A RENEWED COMMITMENT" on page 2

[Bogus Megapardus]

they had better get off their duffs.

Duffs . . . what a great nickname for a team! Like the "Dubuque Duffs." Better suited for a perennial bottom-dweller, though . . . .

Anyhow, Carney, are you saying that the duff-getting-off-of decision and announcement by the PL has to be made in the next few weeks, before the Northeastern gaps are filled and its (former) players are dispersed? You might be correct.

[Go...gate]

And what better source could you ask for?!! And, I did cite higher authority as attribution, so... Oh yeah, I heard it with my own defective ears. No he said, she said. Remember, everything is predicated on the Patriot League "moving forward."

As for Fordham, the clock is suddenly ticking faster and louder. The Northeastern decision turns the CAA North into a bit of chaos that will only be exacerbated if they follow through with their intentions to throw Georgia State in with UNH, UMass, Rhode Island, etc. Fordham to the CAA is suddenly no longer a hallucination. Some folks - on both sides of that divide - may actually view it as a dream come true. If the Patriot League sticks with their traditional policy that a glacial pace is fast enough, and, more to the point, if they adhere to their announced timeline of "a decision by December, 2010," it may be too little, too late. If they are serious about keeping Fordham in the fold, they had better get off their duffs.

Seriously, carney2, you know I consider you a very reliable source; it should go without saying by now. For all any of us know, Tavani may know the story but cannot discuss it.

[carney2]

Duffs . . . what a great nickname for a team! Like the "Dubuque Duffs." Better suited for a perennial bottom-dweller, though . . . .

Anyhow, Carney, are you saying that the duff-getting-off-of decision and announcement by the PL has to be made in the next few weeks, before the Northeastern gaps are filled and its (former) players are dispersed? You might be correct.

No. That is another matter altogether.

I am saying that the Patriot League had better determine a direction before Fordham gets too far down that "moving on" road if they truly hope to salvage this situation.

[carney2]

Seriously, carney2, you know I consider you a very reliable source; it should go without saying by now. For all any of us know, Tavani may know the story but cannot discuss it.

Perhaps, but he blurted it out in a public forum, and seemed very firm in his conviction.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I am saying that the Patriot League had better determine a direction before Fordham gets too far down that "moving on" road if they truly hope to salvage this situation.

You know, the more I think about this maybe Holy Cross read some tea leaves here?

HC knows Northeastern will disband.... they realize that Fordham might be out the door sooner rather than later... and then all of a sudden realize that in order to keep their fellow Jesuit school Fordham, they'll need to say OK to (some level of) scholarships. It's only a theory, but it would explain an awful lot.

Lehigh appears squarely, publicly on the side of scholarships. Colgate, presumably as well. Lafayette - I'm assuming yes, though maybe not right away. Holy Cross - as my theory goes - became a "yes" when it became evident that Fordham might actually bolt. It's hard to imagine Army, Navy or American with any sort of objection. Even if Bucknell and Georgetown are polite abstentions, that means scholarships are coming.

If true - imagine this - we'd have Northeastern to thank for having scholarships in the PL. Incredible.

[Franks Tanks]

You know, the more I think about this maybe Holy Cross read some tea leaves here?

HC knows Northeastern will disband.... they realize that Fordham might be out the door sooner rather than later... and then all of a sudden realize that in order to keep their fellow Jesuit school Fordham, they'll need to say OK to (some level of) scholarships. It's only a theory, but it would explain an awful lot.

Lehigh appears squarely, publicly on the side of scholarships. Colgate, presumably as well. Lafayette - I'm assuming yes, though maybe not right away. Holy Cross - as my theory goes - became a "yes" when it became evident that Fordham might actually bolt. It's hard to imagine Army, Navy or American with any sort of objection. Even if Bucknell and Georgetown are polite abstentions, that means scholarships are coming.

If true - imagine this - we'd have Northeastern to thank for having scholarships in the PL. Incredible.


I feel Lafayette will keep pace with Colgate and Lehigh with scholarships. Frank has come out in favor of scholarships-- it would be incredibly stupid for him to do so without having confidence we can provide them. Our major donors.. the Kirby's, Mr Bourger, and Mr. Fisher will go nuts if we didnt properly fund scholarships after they spent millions on stadium renovations.

We will make it happen despite this mytical title IX issue that only affects Lafayette somehow

[jimbo65]

There is no reason for Georgetown to join the Pioneer League under that logic. When Georgetown was in the MAAC, it played a bunch of schools that nobody on campus knew much about and were not peer institutions. Games were won, but nobody really seemed to notice because it still wasn't scholarship football and the team was playing schools that no one on campus had ever heard of or had any connection to.

).
Apparently Gtown has one set of rules for football and another for basketball. Playing, and very well, in the Big East has you playing peer schools such as South Florida, DePaul, Cinn. to name a few. St John's was also in the MAAC fball league. Guess it is okay for bball but not fball(no that SJU fields a team anymore)

That said, I hope Gtown does the right thing and really tries to improve. The players must feel pretty crappy about the program. I know one of your recent fball grads and he certainly did the best he could to no avail.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

We will make it happen despite this mytical title IX issue that only affects Lafayette somehow

That's not true. Bucknell is also deeply affected by this at a bare minimum - and I think HC is affected, too, though not as much as you guys.

[DFW HOYA]

Apparently Gtown has one set of rules for football and another for basketball. Playing, and very well, in the Big East has you playing peer schools such as South Florida, DePaul, Cinn. to name a few. St John's was also in the MAAC fball league. Guess it is okay for bball but not fball(no that SJU fields a team anymore)

For many years Georgetown has applied a tiered formula to program support, so, yes, there are different "rules" at play.

The "national" sports got scholarship support and play amidst national championship competition: basketball, track, lacrosse.

The "regional" sports got financial aid support and play amidst regional competition: football, golf, soccer, rowing, sailing, volleyball.

The "local" sports were walk-on sports and were not expected to regularly compete for championships: baseball, field hockey, tennis, softball, swimming.

Some of these tiers have changed over the years (baseball, for one) but with almost 800 student athletes, there is no way to cover scholarships for everyone.

[Franks Tanks]

That's not true. Bucknell is also deeply affected by this at a bare minimum - and I think HC is affected, too, though not as much as you guys.

I dont think any of us know the real story here. But to say Lehigh and Bucknell with wrestling and Colgate and Holy Cross with hockey are in a MUCH better title IX position than Lafayette seems illogical to me. Especially considering we had a big lesbian as an AD for years who loved woman's sports and often claimed we were among the most Title IX complaint in the country.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I dont think any of us know the real story here. But to say Lehigh and Bucknell with wrestling and Colgate and Holy Cross with hockey are in a MUCH better title IX position than Lafayette seems illogical to me. Especially considering we had a big lesbian as an AD for years who loved woman's sports and often claimed we were among the most Title IX complaint in the country.

I recall that she claimed that her mandate and sole mission was to make Lafayette the most Title IX compliant institution in the nation. She despised football and football players. I make no assumption as to her sexual orientation, however. :D

[Franks Tanks]

I recall that she claimed that her mandate and sole mission was to make Lafayette the most Title IX compliant institution in the nation. She despised football and football players. I make no assumption as to her sexual orientation, however. :D

I played football when she was the AD-- I can verify she hatred us.

She was AD for a while and really did a lot to make us extremely title IX compliant. This is why I wonder how we became so non-compliant so fast (with or without FB scholly's)

[Sader87]

I dont think any of us know the real story here. But to say Lehigh and Bucknell with wrestling and Colgate and Holy Cross with hockey are in a MUCH better title IX position than Lafayette seems illogical to me. Especially considering we had a big lesbian as an AD for years who loved woman's sports and often claimed we were among the most Title IX complaint in the country.

They ruin everything.

Lipstick lesbians on the other hand...

[Go...gate]

I dont think any of us know the real story here. But to say Lehigh and Bucknell with wrestling and Colgate and Holy Cross with hockey are in a MUCH better title IX position than Lafayette seems illogical to me. Especially considering we had a big lesbian as an AD for years who loved woman's sports and often claimed we were among the most Title IX complaint in the country.

Ah, Eve Atkinson. What happened to her?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Ah, Eve Atkinson. What happened to her?

Years of litigation.

Edit: It appears that Dr. Atkinson now is a Professor of Sport and Athletic Administration at West Chester University.



http://www.wcupa.edu/_ACADEMICS/HealthSciences/Dean/Images/eve_big.jpg

[MplsBison]

It all counts towards the 63 scholarship limit.

No I don't think so. That's how the PFL schools can attract football players without technically giving them a scholarship or a grant-in-aid.

They just make sure that the football player's name goes to the top of the list when applying for school-wide aid (wink-wink! xsmiley_wix). Same thing that happens at top DIII schools.

[HoyaMetanoia]

Apparently Gtown has one set of rules for football and another for basketball. Playing, and very well, in the Big East has you playing peer schools such as South Florida, DePaul, Cinn. to name a few. St John's was also in the MAAC fball league. Guess it is okay for bball but not fball(no that SJU fields a team anymore)

That said, I hope Gtown does the right thing and really tries to improve. The players must feel pretty crappy about the program. I know one of your recent fball grads and he certainly did the best he could to no avail.

Yes. Because we play basketball with scholarships, therefore the mindset is different regarding who we play and why we play.

[Bogus Megapardus]

No I don't think so. That's how the PFL schools can attract football players without technically giving them a scholarship or a grant-in-aid.

They just make sure that the football player's name goes to the top of the list when applying for school-wide aid (wink-wink! xsmiley_wix). Same thing that happens at top DIII schools.

You can rest assured that it does not work that way at PL schools.

[Sader87]

Years of litigation.

Edit: It appears that Dr. Atkinson now is a Professor of Sport and Athletic Administration at West Chester University.



http://www.wcupa.edu/_ACADEMICS/HealthSciences/Dean/Images/eve_big.jpg



She's A MAN BABY!!!!! xrotatehx

[Bogus Megapardus]

She's A MAN BABY!!!!! xrotatehx

I did not say that, nor did I have that precise phrase circulating in my brain with a broad smile on my face when I saw this picture. I merely posted it for others' comments. That is all.

[crusader11]

She's A MAN BABY!!!!! xrotatehx

Tough luck.

[MplsBison]

You can rest assured that it does not work that way at PL schools.

No I realize that. The PL schools give aid to football players that no one else in the school can get.

They just pretend to be uppity about it because the amount of aid given is based on need, rather than merit.

[DFW HOYA]

No I realize that. The PL schools give aid to football players that no one else in the school can get. They just pretend to be uppity about it because the amount of aid given is based on need, rather than merit.

For its part, Georgetown offers the same types of aid packages to other students, which I'm sure Mpls finds objectionable. Georgetown does not give merit grants to students at large.

[Fordham]

But Fordham is gone already. They're giving 63 scholarships and presumably they won't even pretend to adhere to the academic index. Why does the PL want to try to bring Fordham back?
where'd you get this from?

xconfusedxxconfusedxxconfusedx

[Bogus Megapardus]

where'd you get this from?

xconfusedxxconfusedxxconfusedx

Sorry - it's 60, not 63, scholarships. I stand corrected.

[ngineer]

The PL may not want Fordham but we need them and they need us for the time being.
We dont have anyone to replace them, and they have no conference to move to.

Its like a couple staying together for the kids.. we will keep up appearances but everyone will be miserable with the arrangement.

"...I used her , she used me; we were gettin' our share..workin' on some night moves.."--Bob Seger;)

[ngineer]

Years of litigation.

Edit: It appears that Dr. Atkinson now is a Professor of Sport and Athletic Administration at West Chester University.



http://www.wcupa.edu/_ACADEMICS/HealthSciences/Dean/Images/eve_big.jpg

Wow,..and a real jock school...

[ngineer]

I dont think any of us know the real story here. But to say Lehigh and Bucknell with wrestling and Colgate and Holy Cross with hockey are in a MUCH better title IX position than Lafayette seems illogical to me. Especially considering we had a big lesbian as an AD for years who loved woman's sports and often claimed we were among the most Title IX complaint in the country.

I think part of it relates to the percentage of male/female of your student body. Lehigh is roughly 60/40 male, so we may be in an easier formula application. Plus wrestling doesn't take up a lot of bodies, so they can allocate to women sports accordingly

[ngineer]

I recall that she claimed that her mandate and sole mission was to make Lafayette the most Title IX compliant institution in the nation. She despised football and football players. I make no assumption as to her sexual orientation, however. :D

He was a she?xconfusedxxsmiley_wix

[Go...gate]

]"...I used her , she used me; we were gettin' our share..workin' on some night moves.."--Bob Seger;) [/B]

Great song. :)

[MplsBison]

For its part, Georgetown offers the same types of aid packages to other students, which I'm sure Mpls finds objectionable. Georgetown does not give merit grants to students at large.

The only thing I find objectionable is the thought that a school could give an athlete aid that only athletes can get...based on need.


So, in other words, the only reason the athlete can get the money is because they are a good enough athlete to play for the school's team....and the amount of money they get has nothing to do with how well they play.

xnonono2x xnonono2x xnonono2x xnonono2x


That's why my ideal would be to force schools to either award only full or partial scholarships for athletic aid or award no athletic aid at all and just let athletes apply for the same grants that any student can get.