Possible Seeds Ave. Attendence

[tractorapp]

How will the following average attendence numbers from the NCAA website influence the seeding?

Montana 25,652
Appalachian 25,143
William & Mary 10,269
So. Illinois 9,985
Richmond 8,737
Villanova 8,416

Personally, I think App has a good case for a number 4 seed on their own merits and 15,000 more fans/game than William & Mary will be hard to ignore.

[tribe_pride]

Not saying it won't have an influence but if ASU gets the seed over W&M or Richmond, it will be for attendance reasons and that is complete BS.

It'll be hard to give ASU the seed based on its resume over either Richmond or W&M. Here are the Sagarins (updated through yesterday's games which is why numbers are slightly different than the ones I posted yesterday) Even if you don't like Sagarin, the disparity is big enough that others wouldn't change this:

Richmond (if it beats W&M)
Wins: 58, at 72 (FBS), at 109, at 116, 124, at 139, 161, at 193, 212, at 241
Loss: 43

William & Mary (if it beats Richmond)
Wins: at 59, at 63 (FBS), 99, 109, 116, 171, at 174, at 177, 193, at 194
Loss: at 43

ASU (if it wins its last game)
Wins: at 105, at 142, 152, 163, 167, at 169, at 170, at 197, 233
Losses: at 62 (FBS), 121

[Saint3333]

It may be BS, but this is the NC$$.

[appfan2008]

its all about the bids and i dont see ur or w&m out bidding us... the ncaa wants money and app would bring in better tv numbers down the line and the way to give us the best chance to keep playing would be home games and they know it...

[yosef1969]

its all about the bids and i dont see ur or w&m out bidding us... the ncaa wants money and app would bring in better tv numbers down the line and the way to give us the best chance to keep playing would be home games and they know it...

Seeds aren't about the bids. Bids only apply to non-seeded teams.

I don't think ASU has a leg to stand on for a seed at the moment. IMO the best hope is the Bobcats would beat the Griz but that's unlikely.

[CamelCityAppFan]

I wouldn't be surprised if the NCAA took the easy way out and gave the 4 seeds to 4 conference champs-- in that scenario App would be #4.

The other thing App might have going for it (over the other teams vying for the 4 seed) is that App's last loss was a long time ago (week 2).

[AppMAN04]

The NCAA knows that we can easliy put 30,000 ppl in the stands and they know we are the FCS in terms of revenue....But I dont think we deserve one of the top 4 seeds for that reason alone. We will have to blow WCU out and hope for one of the other teams to lose next week.

I just want us to have atleast one home game because theres no place like BOONE!

GO APPS
CLASS OF 04

[tribe_pride]

I wouldn't be surprised if the NCAA took the easy way out and gave the 4 seeds to 4 conference champs-- in that scenario App would be #4.

The other thing App might have going for it (over the other teams vying for the 4 seed) is that App's last loss was a long time ago (week 2).

ASU has only played 1 quality opponent since week 2 - Elon. If any of the other seed prospects had that schedule, they would have done the same and neither lost to a team close to as bad as McNeese and have a number of better wins. UR & W&M will only have a loss to a seeded Villanova (if VU loses to Delaware next week, it loses the seed and both ASU and W&M/UR winner get seeds so this discussion is for naught).

I think we'll know next Sunday what the NCAA priorities are for seeding - resume or $$$.

[Eight Legger]

There's no way App should leapfrog the winner of W&M/UR next week. If Villanova loses to Delaware, MAYBE that spot goes to App. Otherwise, barring something crazy like Montana getting killed by MSU, I don't see how App gets a seed. The difference between the CAA and SoCon this year has been pretty dramatic.

[Saint3333]

If it were so cut and dry I don't think we'd be debating it. I would not be surprised if the committee awarding the winners of the BS, MVC, CAA, and SoCon the seeds.

The bigger problem with the playoff matchups is in regionalization. No way an ASU vs. Richmond/W&M should be a first round game.

[OL FU]

There's no way App should leapfrog the winner of W&M/UR next week. If Villanova loses to Delaware, MAYBE that spot goes to App. Otherwise, barring something crazy like Montana getting killed by MSU, I don't see how App gets a seed. The difference between the CAA and SoCon this year has been pretty dramatic.

I agree with you but don't be surprised. The loser of that game will have two FCS losses ( I am not arguing strength of schedule blah blah blah) and that will give the committee the easy pick to not let two CAA teams be the seeds and to let ASU's attendance rule. xnodx

[tribe_pride]

In 2007, both UNI and SIU got seeds. Just giving it to conference champions because they are the conference champions is not doing their job. And if that was true, then why wouldn't SC St. get the seed. They are a conference champion and their only loss was to an FBS school.

Not saying that ASU won't get the seed. Only that the NCAA will not be looking at resumes if they get it over the W&M/Richmond winner.

[sharkeycox]

I like the ASU program and like and respect their fans but they do not deserve a seed this year.

[Saint3333]

Resume or not, who would your team rather face in the playoffs W&M or ASU?

If someone said ASU as a top 4 team in the FCS in their poll this week would you be surprised?

[WMTribe90]

Seeds are awarded to teams and not conferences. Both VU and the UR/WM winner are more deserving of a seed than ASU based on resume, SOS, etc. The fact the ASU won a down SoCon is irrelevant.

Seeds are awarded to the best teams and not based on bids. ASU will get a home game based on their attendance, which is fair based on the criteria, but attendance doesn't earn them a seed.

If the committee gives ASU a seed over the UR/WM winner, we'll know exactly what their priorities are and we'll know that our once great playoff system is as broken as the BCS.

[CamelCityAppFan]

I hear what all y'all are saying, and I'm not saying the arguments against App getting a seed aren't valid. All I'm saying is that I think posters on this board put more into SoS, quality wins, etc. than the committee might. The committee has basically an afternoon to sort it all out. A 9-2 ASU SoCon AQ team, with 2 losses early (to an FBS and a top-tier FCS), with the attendance the committee knows they'll see in Boone, is going to be mighty attractive.

Not saying its right or fair, just taking a pragmatic look at it. And I'm really not trying to be a homer. I think other teams in similar situations would receive that same benefit (Montana comes to mind).

Frankly, if the committee had the gumption to seed the teams 1-16, I think the natural place App would fall would be in the 5-6 range. But they don't, and there are factors related to seeding that take place beyond what happens on the field.

At least it's head and shoulders above how the BCS does it.

[WMTribe90]

Resume or not, who would your team rather face in the playoffs W&M or ASU?

If someone said ASU as a top 4 team in the FCS in their poll this week would you be surprised?

Not a seed selection criteria, irrelevant.

Sure, everyone knows ASU is peaking at the right time, unfortunately games played in September still count. The committee is tasked with comparing the entire season's body of work and picking the four best resumes. Period.

[tribe_pride]

I hear what all y'all are saying, and I'm not saying the arguments against App getting a seed aren't valid. All I'm saying is that I think posters on this board put more into SoS, quality wins, etc. than the committee might. The committee has basically an afternoon to sort it all out. A 9-2 ASU SoCon AQ team, with 2 losses early (to an FBS and a top-tier FCS), with the attendance the committee knows they'll see in Boone, is going to be mighty attractive.

Not saying its right or fair, just taking a pragmatic look at it. And I'm really not trying to be a homer. I think other teams in similar situations would receive that same benefit (Montana comes to mind).

Frankly, if the committee had the gumption to seed the teams 1-16, I think the natural place App would fall would be in the 5-6 range. But they don't, and there are factors related to seeding that take place beyond what happens on the field.

At least it's head and shoulders above how the BCS does it.

I think we are in agreement. If its just based on resume, W&M/Richmond winner will get it. If its based on $$$, ASU will get it.

And they don't just have an afternoon to get it together. The committee probably will have everything together going into this weekend with reference to seeds assuming VU, SIU and Montana win. It's easy to susbtitute W&M and UR for each other since their resumes are so similar.

I assume they will probably have it down to 2 or 3 at larges remaining as well. That will be the big decision that they will need to make on Sunday since they don't have to rank 1-16 due to regionalization. My guess is there will be very little work to do on Sunday.

[WMTribe90]

I hear what all y'all are saying, and I'm not saying the arguments against App getting a seed aren't valid. All I'm saying is that I think posters on this board put more into SoS, quality wins, etc. than the committee might. The committee has basically an afternoon to sort it all out. A 9-2 ASU SoCon AQ team, with 2 losses early (to an FBS and a top-tier FCS), with the attendance the committee knows they'll see in Boone, is going to be mighty attractive.

Not saying its right or fair, just taking a pragmatic look at it. And I'm really not trying to be a homer. I think other teams in similar situations would receive that same benefit (Montana comes to mind).

Frankly, if the committee had the gumption to seed the teams 1-16, I think the natural place App would fall would be in the 5-6 range. But they don't, and there are factors related to seeding that take place beyond what happens on the field.

At least it's head and shoulders above how the BCS does it.

Is it really? If the committee blatantly ignores it's own rules. Seeds a less deserving team for pure monetary gain and punishes a smaller program that has earned a seed ON THE FIELD, are we really any better than the hypocritical BCS?

Every true IAA fan, that believes in true competition and is opposed to the corrupting influence of money on college sports should be opposed to anything like this happening, and that includes ASU fans.

How could anyone who values fairness, competition and earning it between the lines defend awarding a seed based on how much money the NCAA can make??

Luckily, I've seen the committee use attendance as a sort of tie breaker in making selections and pairings. We have yet to see a blatant disregard for on-field resutls and I hope this isn't the year we do. The difference in resumes betwen ASU and the UR/WM will be obvious enough to prevent any shenanigans IMO.

[Skjellyfetti]

Luckily, I've seen the committee use attendance as a sort of tie breaker in making selections and pairings. We have yet to see a blatant disregard for on-field resutls and I hope this isn't the year we do. The difference in resumes betwen ASU and the UR/WM will be obvious enough to prevent any shenanigans IMO.

The winner of the UR/WM game will certainly have a better resume... not sure if the loser will. It seems that they would be quite close... hence using attendance/bid as a tiebreaker and it going to App.

[tribe_pride]

The winner of the UR/WM game will certainly have a better resume... not sure if the loser will. It seems that they would be quite close... hence using attendance/bid as a tiebreaker and it going to App.

Loser has no chance to get a seed. Villanova (assuming they win next week) and winner should be getting seed.

ASU will host a 1st round game. Nobody here has any doubts about that. The question we are trying to debate is whether or not ASU will get a seed over the winner. If it's ASU versus loser, ASU will host because they have the ability to give a better bid for the game.

[WMTribe90]

The winner of the UR/WM game will certainly have a better resume... not sure if the loser will. It seems that they would be quite close... hence using attendance/bid as a tiebreaker and it going to App.

I agree the WM/UR loser doesn't get a seed over ASU. But, unless VU, SIU or Montana lose next week that won't matter. The seeds will be:

1) VU
2) SIU
3) WM/UR
4) Montana

That's my order based on resume, but the order doesn't matter much to me.

[WMTribe90]

Loser has no chance to get a seed. Villanova (assuming they win next week) and winner should be getting seed.

ASU will host a 1st round game. Nobody here has any doubts about that. The question we are trying to debate is whether or not ASU will get a seed over the winner. If it's ASU versus loser, ASU will host because they have the ability to give a better bid for the game.

I'm 90-percent certain the UR/WM loser travels to Boone for the first round. Shame to pit two top six teams against one another in the first round, but at least that's consistent with the rules.

[Tribe4SF]

The winner of the UR/WM game will certainly have a better resume... not sure if the loser will. It seems that they would be quite close... hence using attendance/bid as a tiebreaker and it going to App.

I don't think anyone is arguing the comparison between the UR/W&M loser, and ASU. The question is will the UR/W&M winner get a seed over ASU. The fact that the loser of that game would be comparable to ASU makes the first question an easy one.

If Villanova gets a seed, and the committee chooses a 9-2 ASU over a 10-1 UR or W&M, they will incur some major wrath from the entire CAA.

[yosef1969]

The winner of the UR/WM game will certainly have a better resume... not sure if the loser will. It seems that they would be quite close... hence using attendance/bid as a tiebreaker and it going to App.

The problem for ASU is that they are competing for one seed spot with the UR/W&M winner, the loser isn't a factor it the seed debate. 'Nova, Montana and SIU have virtually locked up 3 of the 4 seeds. It's a tough argument to make and I'm as much a homer as anyone. I'm not saying the committee won't award the final seed to ASU but it would be very interesting to hear their rationalization if they do. The only consideration attendance should ever have at all in the granting of seeds is if the resumes are so close that it comes down to breaking the "tie". I can't see how the committee could justify the "tie" argument in this case. Hope I'm wrong.

[yosef1969]

I don't think anyone is arguing the comparison between the UR/W&M loser, and ASU. The question is will the UR/W&M winner get a seed over ASU. The fact that the loser of that game would be comparable to ASU makes the first question an easy one.

If Villanova gets a seed, and the committee chooses a 9-2 ASU over a 10-1 UR or W&M, they will incur some major wrath from the entire CAA.

I agree with you but what is this major wrath you speak of and do you think it would/should really carry any weight with the committee? If so, doesn't that demonstate more corruption than awarding a seed to ASU based on subjective merits?

[WMTribe90]

I agree with you but what is this major wrath you speak of and do you think it would/should really carry any weight with the committee? If so, doesn't that demonstate more corruption than awarding a seed to ASU based on subjective merits?

Railing against an injustice, after the fact, is simply holding decision makers accountable for their decisions and not allowing a corruption of the system to go unchallenged. If knowing they will face a public outcry forces the committee to follow the established selection criteria for seeds than that is a good thing and hardly a corrupting influence, unlike money (in the form of bids) has been.

[yosef1969]

Railing against an injustice, after the fact, is simply holding decision makers accountable for their decisions and not allowing a corruption of the system to go unchallenged. If knowing they will face a public outcry forces the committee to follow the established selection criteria for seeds than that is a good thing and hardly a corrupting influence, unlike money (in the form of bids) has been.

That'd be true if there were established criteria. Seems to me it's been a moving target for some time and if threats of "wrath" persuade the committee one way or another that sounds like coersion. Don't get me wrong I agree that the UR/WM winner should probably get the seed but threats of wrath if they don't, well that makes me laugh.

[theasushow]

w&m and richmond have the better resume for sure. but we all know that an app team that has won 9 straight games and was undefeated in the socon will be hard to overlook for that 4 seed. however, i am more worried about the possibility of playing UR or W&M in round 1, which is complete crap. the socon and caa got the shaft last year too by sending wofford to JMU for the 1st round.

[Tribe4SF]

Railing against an injustice, after the fact, is simply holding decision makers accountable for their decisions and not allowing a corruption of the system to go unchallenged. If knowing they will face a public outcry forces the committee to follow the established selection criteria for seeds than that is a good thing and hardly a corrupting influence, unlike money (in the form of bids) has been.

What he said.

The wrath would be expressed through the competition committee, and would call the integrity of the selection process into question. The committee knows full well the criteria on which they are to base their decisions, and if they modify that criteria, they will have earned some wrath. They really need look no further than their own power ranking to select the four seeds.

[Tribe4SF]

w&m and richmond have the better resume for sure. but we all know that an app team that has won 9 straight games and was undefeated in the socon will be hard to overlook for that 4 seed. however, i am more worried about the possibility of playing UR or W&M in round 1, which is complete crap. the socon and caa got the shaft last year too by sending wofford to JMU for the 1st round.

I agree. Let's hope that this view leads to a return to seeding of all teams in the field.

[fencer24]

I haven't been following as closely as I should have, but after they did away with the 1-16 seedings, didn't they basically only guarantee the top 4 seeds home games, and the rest went to a bid system?
And wouldn't that mean that ASU without a seed would still have a good shot at two home playoff games?

[tribe_pride]

I haven't been following as closely as I should have, but after they did away with the 1-16 seedings, didn't they basically only guarantee the top 4 seeds home games, and the rest went to a bid system?
And wouldn't that mean that ASU without a seed would still have a good shot at two home playoff games?

They would have a good shot at 1 home game without a seed. This is because ASU, assuming they are unseeded, would probably play an unseeded team in the first round.

The next round has 8 teams left - the 4 seeds (absent upsets) and the 4 unseededs that won their first round match. An unseeded ASU would go to the seeded team they were matched up against.

An unseeded ASU would get a 2nd round home game if the seeded team they were matched up with loses in the 1st round though.

[Eight Legger]

I haven't been following as closely as I should have, but after they did away with the 1-16 seedings, didn't they basically only guarantee the top 4 seeds home games, and the rest went to a bid system?
And wouldn't that mean that ASU without a seed would still have a good shot at two home playoff games?

Only if the seeded teams in their bracket lost. They'd have to face a seeded team in the second round, unless that team was upset. If they went on the road and beat a seeded team, they'd be in line to face another seeded team on the road, barring an upset again.

[Tribe07]

w&m and richmond have the better resume for sure. but we all know that an app team that has won 9 straight games and was undefeated in the socon will be hard to overlook for that 4 seed. however, i am more worried about the possibility of playing UR or W&M in round 1, which is complete crap. the socon and caa got the shaft last year too by sending wofford to JMU for the 1st round.

I couldn't agree more. Truly I am so anxious for W&M to beat UR and grab a seed because I don't want to have to travel to Boone in Round 1. That is grossly unfair to both teams frankly, because both teams have had a fantastic season. The UR/W&M winner had better get a seed, and ASU will quite possibly host the W&M/UR loser in a first round game that probably should be at least a quarterfinal match-up (if not semi).

[fencer24]

Only if the seeded teams in their bracket lost. They'd have to face a seeded team in the second round, unless that team was upset. If they went on the road and beat a seeded team, they'd be in line to face another seeded team on the road, barring an upset again.

From history, I am figuring that is better than a 50-50 chance.

[yosef1969]

I couldn't agree more. Truly I am so anxious for W&M to beat UR and grab a seed because I don't want to have to travel to Boone in Round 1. That is grossly unfair to both teams frankly, because both teams have had a fantastic season. The UR/W&M winner had better get a seed, and ASU will quite possibly host the W&M/UR loser in a first round game that probably should be at least a quarterfinal match-up (if not semi).

That problem is solved if Liberty finds a way into the field which isn't impossible.

[AlphaSigMD]

That problem is solved if Liberty finds a way into the field which isn't impossible.

I think the CAA needs to take a deep breath.

In the last few years, things have swung your way in the grand scheme of the FCS. (Actually, it seemed to start right around the time when 1-AA went to FCS). Right now, your league has more teams (more traditionally quality teams, more traditionally horrible teams as well) and a line up of middle of the road teams.

Furman and GSU have obviously fallen on hard times in the last few years. Poor coaching employment decisions over the years will eventually come back and bite you. UMass and JMU had down years this year as well...so the CAA is not immune to such phenomena. There were some surprises this year - William and Mary (i know, some hard core people will thump their chest and say they knew W&M was going to be fantastic this year...and maybe in their heart of hearts they hoped against hope...but it was still a surprise year - anyone who says that 3 straight losing seasons followed by a 7-4 season, with the same coach in the CAA south is a sure thing formula for success is drinking the koolaid). UTC was also a surprise (they won more games this year than their last 3 years combined).

Both conferences have the benefit of playing down with some opponents...but the CAA definitely has the edge here. The SoCon has far fewer OOC FCS cupcakes in the area, and therefore we often have to look to Division 2 to schedule some games. It may not mean much, but it certainly gives the CAA an advantage on the race to 7 D1 for the playoffs.

The CAA clearly had a banner year this year in beating some D1 teams. The SoCon's only real chance for a win was ASU. It may have been a win had it not been for a certain Briggs and Stratton that will remain nameless...but we will never know.



The class of the CAA
Richmond
Villanova
W&M
New Hampshire

Borderline - Delaware

Middle of the Road
JMU
UMass
Maine

Bottom of the Barrel
Northeastern
Towson
Hofstra
Rhode Island




SoCon
Class
ASU
Elon

Middle of the Road
Furman
UTC
Samford

Middle of the Barrel
GSU

Bottom of the Barrel
Citadel
Wofford
Western Carolina


That being said - ASU probably doesn't get a seed this year, even though they are deserving of one, and the CAA probably gets 2 by virtue of this being an "Up" year for the CAA as a whole, especially within the CAA south - and having at least 2 10-1 teams from there. Co-Champions, I guess you'd call them.

However to say that ASU is NOT deserving of a seed is untrue. Our resume this year is certainly worthy of a seed based on teams who have been given seeds in previous years. Perhaps there are teams THIS year that may be "more" deserving than ASU, but that doesn't mean that a 9-2 against an all D-1 Schedule (NCCU is trans, i know) and an undefeated run through the round-robin SoCon is not worthy overall.

How things have changed in just a few short years. Remember when ASU was the 2 seed with an 8-3 record...

That being said, ASU will play anyone, anywhere, anytime. If fate smiles on us, then we will play at Kidd Brewer for as long as possible. If it doesn't....then I can predict a 2nd round match-up at Richmond or William and Mary. Either would be an amazing game. Richmond is far more likely, and that would be a nice measure of revenge.

[mountaineer in Cane Land]

You guys are forgetting one important factor, Armonti Edwards. The ncaa is about making money, and the FCS playoffs is one of the poorest attended/least watched sporting event the ncca sponsers. The ncaa will try to use every angle to make as much money as possible. When you look at App, we are second in attendence during the regular season, outside of Montana, we will bring more fans to our home playoff games, and we have Edwards the most exciting player, that is the face of the FCS, and is as close to a nationally known player the FCS has. In short, if the ncaa wants to maximize its return, it makes sense to keep App in the tourniment as long as possible, and playing at home helps. Is this fair, to award teams based on how much money they can bring in, no. Now, personally, I've read the arguments about App not getting a seed, and while ya'll make good points, I disagree, Apps only loses this year was a 5 point lost to East Carolina, a division 1 school that will finish 2nd in conference USA, and Edwards didn't play, and to Mcneese St, a team that will probably make the playoffs. App has dominated the SoCon the last 5 weeks, and yesterday, against the 7th ranked team, App dominated on both sides of the ball, everyone who watched the game, noted that App could have easily hung 40 or more points if they had not gone conservative in the second half. With all due respect, to the other teams in the FCS, there is not a team with more freak athletics than App, and they are finally playing as a team. I say this with caution, but they are peaking at the right time, and this might be the best team App ever put on the field.

[Tod]

The NCAA knows that we can easliy put 30,000 ppl in the stands and they know we are the FCS in terms of revenue....But I dont think we deserve one of the top 4 seeds for that reason alone. We will have to blow WCU out and hope for one of the other teams to lose next week.

I just want us to have atleast one home game because theres no place like BOONE!

GO APPS
CLASS OF 04

I'm pretty sure that Montana's revenue is significantly higher than ASU's. I bring this up because even if MSU upsets UM on Saturday, UM still has the advantage for home field over ASU in attendance/revenue. ASU might have the advantage in national recognition, but I believe that Montana will get a seed regardless of what happens on the 21st. I think ASU's chance of a seed at this point is slim.

[Cincy App]

I agree the WM/UR loser doesn't get a seed over ASU. But, unless VU, SIU or Montana lose next week that won't matter. The seeds will be:

1) VU
2) SIU
3) WM/UR
4) Montana

That's my order based on resume, but the order doesn't matter much to me.

The Playoff Selection Committee (PSC) has been swayed by attendance ($$$) in past years - even in seeding. ASU at 9-2 will get a seed if Nova loses next week and will at least be in the discussion even if not.

Furthermore, I GUARANTEE that an 11-0 Montana will get a top 2 seed (meaning they stay at home) despite quality resumes of VU and SIU. I am not saying they are clearly one of the top 2 teams in FCS. Regardless, if you don't think UM gets a top 2 seed, you are kidding yourself.

[soccerguy315]

That being said - ASU probably doesn't get a seed this year, even though they are deserving of one, and the CAA probably gets 2 by virtue of this being an "Up" year for the CAA as a whole, especially within the CAA south - and having at least 2 10-1 teams from there. Co-Champions, I guess you'd call them.

However to say that ASU is NOT deserving of a seed is untrue. Our resume this year is certainly worthy of a seed based on teams who have been given seeds in previous years. Perhaps there are teams THIS year that may be "more" deserving than ASU, but that doesn't mean that a 9-2 against an all D-1 Schedule (NCCU is trans, i know) and an undefeated run through the round-robin SoCon is not worthy overall.

Uh... if there are 4 teams with better resumes than ASU, then ASU does not deserve a seed. That's how it works. To argue that ASU deserves a seed, you need to argue that they have one of the best 4 resumes in FCS in 2009.

[Saint3333]

I'm pretty sure that Montana's revenue is significantly higher than ASU's. I bring this up because even if MSU upsets UM on Saturday, UM still has the advantage for home field over ASU in attendance/revenue. ASU might have the advantage in national recognition, but I believe that Montana will get a seed regardless of what happens on the 21st. I think ASU's chance of a seed at this point is slim.

If Montana loses this weekend you will not get a seed over ASU. Your attendance is less than 1K more than ASU's on average. If ASU has 29K this weekend vs. WCU we'll have the #1 average again this year.

[Tribe07]

Others have said this earlier in the thread but obviously it needs to be reiterated. Seeds are NOT based on attendance, but on resume. As a result, the seeds are SIU, Montana, VU, and the UR/W&M winner. Case closed.

[Skjellyfetti]

Others have said this earlier in the thread but obviously it needs to be reiterated. Seeds are NOT based on attendance, but on resume. As a result, the seeds are SIU, Montana, VU, and the UR/W&M winner. Case closed.

Perhaps I'm missing something... but, I'm not sure it's that cut and dry. It's the conventional wisdom... but, it's not in the NCAA guidebook that I can find. They list their criteria for choosing the at large teams... but, not for deciding who is seeded. The only language applying to seeds is very vague. But, perhaps I'm overlooking something:

http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/champ_handbooks/football/2008/1_football_handbook.pdf

[Tod]

If Montana loses this weekend you will not get a seed over ASU. Your attendance is less than 1K more than ASU's on average. If ASU has 29K this weekend vs. WCU we'll have the #1 average again this year.

Yes, we will. But hopefully I won't have to prove you wrong.

[Skjellyfetti]

If Montana State beats Montana... it probably would come down to bid... also... the fact that Montana's loss to Montana State would be the last week in the season and App's loss to McNeese was the second week in the season would help App's case. Seeing which school could outbid the other would be interesting though. xnodx

[tribe_pride]

On page 11, it says "The top four teams in the 16-team bracket for the championship will be seeded."

[mountaineer in Cane Land]

I understand what you guys are saying, but to say that it is cut and dry, and that App doesn't have a shot at a seed is incorrect, I do not know if App will get a seed, but I guarantee they will be in discussion

[Saint3333]

Yes, we will. But hopefully I won't have to prove you wrong.

Yeah the committee will be really impressed with your 2 point win over Idaho State. Lose to the Bobcats and you'll get one home game, no seed.

[seattlespider]

You guys are forgetting one important factor, Armonti Edwards. The ncaa is about making money, and the FCS playoffs is one of the poorest attended/least watched sporting event the ncca sponsers. The ncaa will try to use every angle to make as much money as possible. When you look at App, we are second in attendence during the regular season, outside of Montana, we will bring more fans to our home playoff games, and we have Edwards the most exciting player, that is the face of the FCS, and is as close to a nationally known player the FCS has. In short, if the ncaa wants to maximize its return, it makes sense to keep App in the tourniment as long as possible, and playing at home helps. Is this fair, to award teams based on how much money they can bring in, no. Now, personally, I've read the arguments about App not getting a seed, and while ya'll make good points, I disagree, Apps only loses this year was a 5 point lost to East Carolina, a division 1 school that will finish 2nd in conference USA, and Edwards didn't play, and to Mcneese St, a team that will probably make the playoffs. App has dominated the SoCon the last 5 weeks, and yesterday, against the 7th ranked team, App dominated on both sides of the ball, everyone who watched the game, noted that App could have easily hung 40 or more points if they had not gone conservative in the second half. With all due respect, to the other teams in the FCS, there is not a team with more freak athletics than App, and they are finally playing as a team. I say this with caution, but they are peaking at the right time, and this might be the best team App ever put on the field.

If that is even close to true, then it is the most contemptable thing just about ever in sports. You have just said that the NCAA, to maximize their profits, should do what they can to keep ASU in the playoffs as long as possible. Absoblutely amazing.

[WMTribe90]

I understand what you guys are saying, but to say that it is cut and dry, and that App doesn't have a shot at a seed is incorrect, I do not know if App will get a seed, but I guarantee they will be in discussion

WM/UR winner will have more wins.
WM/UR winner will have better wins.
WM/UR have an FBS win.
WM/UR winner will have a better GPI rating (and Sagarin)
WM/UR winner will only have a loss to a top 5 FCS.
WM/UR will be ranked higher in the human polls

There is no metric by which ASU can be considered to have a superior resume. The committee would have no rationale on which to base a decision to seed ASU over WM/UR.

I'm losing a little respect for SOME of the ASU fans. It's okay to be a homer, but try to keep it grounded in reality.

[Saint3333]

Maybe some of the committee members have seen both teams play and believe ASU to be the better team. ASU lost two games by 10 points without their best player for one and his first action is over a year for the second. Sometimes the numbers don't tell the whole story.

[WMTribe90]

Maybe some of the committee members have seen both teams play and believe ASU to be the better team. ASU lost two games by 10 points without their best player for one and his first action is over a year for the second. Sometimes the numbers don't tell the whole story.

...and sometimes they really do xnodx

[Appattk]

Playoff Certainties

#1. ASU will host a 1st Round Game
#2. Montana will be a #1 or #2 seed
#3. EIU will play SIU in the first round
#4. Holy Cross will play Villanova in the first round
#5. UNI will host a 1st Round game
#6. UNH will be sent halfway across the country
#7. Elon will NOT have a 1st Round home game
#8. McNeese St will host a 1st Round home game
#9. ASU's first round attendance will be horribly in the teens....
#10. The last playoff invite will be between Liberty & EWU

Playoff Uncertainties

#1. The last seed will go to one of the following teams ASU/Richmond/W&M
#2. ASU's first round opponent will be either SCSU or the loser of Richmond/W&M. More than likely a CAA opponent

Anymore?

[soccerguy315]

Maybe some of the committee members have seen both teams play and believe ASU to be the better team. ASU lost two games by 10 points without their best player for one and his first action is over a year for the second. Sometimes the numbers don't tell the whole story.

if ASU was 2-9, but 2-0 with their best player, would you make the same argument?

If not, as what point would your argument be successful, in your mind? 4-7? 6-5? 7-4?

And as a follow up, why did you choose the record you chose for making your argument worthwhile?

[Saint3333]

Is this english?

Watch some film on both teams and get back to me.

[GreatAppSt]

A team that loses a game in the month of November does'nt ever deserve a seed period, no matter what the record was before the loss or who they lose to.

[seattlespider]

A team that loses a game in the month of November does'nt ever deserve a seed period, no matter what the record was before the loss or who they lose to.

LOL!

[soccerguy315]

Is this english?

Watch some film on both teams and get back to me.

You made an argument. I asked if your argument would still be good with varied records. Apparently you weren't interested in defending your position.

ASU should be no higher than 6th this week in any poll, and no higher than 5th the week after, jumping the UR/WM loser.

5th place = not top 4 = no seed.

[WMTribe90]

A team that loses a game in the month of November does'nt ever deserve a seed period, no matter what the record was before the loss or who they lose to.

LOL, you can't be serious, but yet you are.

[yosef1969]

WM/UR winner will have more wins.
WM/UR winner will have better wins.
WM/UR have an FBS win.
WM/UR winner will have a better GPI rating (and Sagarin)
WM/UR winner will only have a loss to a top 5 FCS.
WM/UR will be ranked higher in the human polls

There is no metric by which ASU can be considered to have a superior resume. The committee would have no rationale on which to base a decision to seed ASU over WM/UR.

I'm losing a little respect for SOME of the ASU fans. It's okay to be a homer, but try to keep it grounded in reality.

The problem with the cut and dry argument is that it fails to acknowledge the fact that "the top 4 teams" is a subjective opinion. Margin of victory in the last games could impact the committee, 9 straight wins could have an impact, etc. etc. etc. Personally if I were on the committee, I'd be hard pressed to make the argument for ASU to receive a seed unless there is at least one huge surprise this weekend.
All the stats, ranking in the world don't mean squat if a team fails to meet the eyeball test. Just remember nearly every one of those rankings and metrics that you put up had Elon rated higher than ASU...

[WMTribe90]

You made an argument. I asked if your argument would still be good with varied records. Apparently you weren't interested in defending your position.

ASU should be no higher than 6th this week in any poll, and no higher than 5th the week after, jumping the UR/WM loser.

5th place = not top 4 = no seed.


Stop using logic soccer, you're giving some of the ASU fans a headache.

They're argument blois down to this.

We deserve a seed because we're ASU and we don't have to earn it.

[WMTribe90]

Metrics is all the committee has in the absence of head to head Yosef. When you start asking the committee to substitute opinion and gut feelings for objective data, then you are asking for abuse.

ASU may be a better team than WM, but they haven't earned a seed, unless VU or SIU loses.

[SDSUJacks]

A team that loses a game in the month of November does'nt ever deserve a seed period, no matter what the record was before the loss or who they lose to.

Well, looks like we're out then by your logic xrolleyesx

[ncguitarplyr]

NCAA doesn't make more money if App plays at home as a seed or if App plays at home without a seed

App will be playing a first round game at home but not as a seed, usually an undefeated socon record would do it but the socon is just too down this year and the caa is too good (as a whole) and even though I have my doubts its hard to argue against Montana when they haven't loss

[Saint3333]

You nailed it tribe...

ASU's offense is the best in the nation and the defense was gotten better during the season with the emergence of three freshman who now are starters.

You guys might want to look at the seeds from past years compared to the teams ranked 1-4, you may be surprised to see it isn't that cut and dry, as I've said all along.

[WMTribe90]

NCAA doesn't make more money if App plays at home as a seed or if App plays at home without a seed

App will be playing a first round game at home but not as a seed, usually an undefeated socon record would do it but the socon is just too down this year and the caa is too good (as a whole) and even though I have my doubts its hard to argue against Montana when they haven't loss

Good, realistic post. Montana should be seeded, but I have them behind SIU, VU and UR/WM winner as the four seed. Probably won't happen, but I think that's what they deserve.

[KiddBrewer]

give wm/richmond the seed. at this point, dont think it really mattersxcoffeexxtwocentsx


yea, i did just say that

[WMTribe90]

Thanks for giving us what we've already earned xcoffeex

[KiddBrewer]

Thanks for giving us what we've already earned xcoffeex

im pretty sure your team hasnt earned squat (other than a berth), yet xcoffeex

[yosef1969]

Metrics is all the committee has in the absence of head to head Yosef. When you start asking the committee to substitute opinion and gut feelings for objective data, then you are asking for abuse.

ASU may be a better team than WM, but they haven't earned a seed, unless VU or SIU loses.

Again I agree, but most of those metrics themselves are based on opinion and gut feelings. Take Strength of Schedule for example, that's an opinion, a widely shared opinion but an opinion none the less. Also the opinion that the CAA is vastly better than the Socon, again a widely held opinion, but still an opinion.

There is some precedent in the committee ignoring the metrics, the term "getting woffed" comes to mind.

All that said IMO the UR/WM winner get the bid unless something changes drastically which is unlikely.

[GreatAppSt]

LOL!

Why laugh, Don't lose late, has been an unwritten rule for 20 some years.xrulesxxreadx;)

[snap]

Let's just split the bracket in half and play all the games at Wa/Griz and Kidd Brewer. Everybody heads home for the holidays, then MT and App St. get together every year for the NC game in Las Vegas. Simple metrics.

[ChubbyCherub]

How can a team that doesn't win its respective coference deserve a seed?

The only team that can get the shaft in this case is Mcneese State.

[KiddBrewer]

How can a team that doesn't win its respective coference deserve a seed?

The only team that can get the shaft in this case is Mcneese State.

because they may be one of the top 4 best teams

no need for any other responses

[james_lawfirm]

Seeds aren't about the bids. Bids only apply to non-seeded teams.

This is not exactly right. Seeded teams must guarantee a minimum take at the gate to the NCAA. It's sort of like a bid, but the NCAA just tells that school what the minimum is. As long as a team agrees to the minimum bid (or the take), then it gets the seed.

I distinctly recall that some team in the last four or five years was offered a seed, but would not agree to the minimum bid. So, they did not get the seed. Unfortunately, I do not recall the year this occurred or the team. Can anyone enlighten me?

[ChubbyCherub]

That is flawed logic

an at large bid deserves a seed over an AQ that won the conference?

[KiddBrewer]

That is flawed logic

an at large bid deserves a seed over an AQ that won the conference?

if the conference is better, then yes, possibly so

[tribe_pride]

That is flawed logic

an at large bid deserves a seed over an AQ that won the conference?

Let's say that the top 2 teams in the country are in 1 conference. They play each other and one has to beat the other. Should the team that lost be penalized out of a seed because they were matched up in a conference with the top team in the nation?

BTW I am not saying the top 2 teams in the country are in 1 conference. Just used that for an example.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Either Richmond or William and Mary will beat App State by 2 scores, no matter the venue.

Can we re-title the thread, "Who has to spend $50 on gas to watch it happen"?

[Grizzaholic]

Let's just split the bracket in half and play all the games at Wa/Griz and Kidd Brewer. Everybody heads home for the holidays, then MT and App St. get together every year for the NC game in Las Vegas. Simple metrics.

That wouldn't work. Not enough CAA or EC teams involved.

[tribe_pride]

Either Richmond or William and Mary will beat App State by 2 scores, no matter the venue.

Can we re-title the thread, "Who has to spend $50 on gas to watch it happen"?

Please let everyone see that this was a Richmond person who wrote that and not a W&M person.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Please let everyone see that this was a Richmond person who wrote that and not a W&M person.

I think everyone is aware, based on my avatar.

[snap]

That wouldn't work. Not enough CAA or EC teams involved.

They're involved for three out of the four roundsxrotatehx

[Skjellyfetti]

On page 11, it says "The top four teams in the 16-team bracket for the championship will be seeded."

And what is the criteria? It's one little sentence that is vague as hell. Whereas the selection of at larges gets sevaral paragraphs of pretty precise explanation.

They don't just pick the top 4 teams in the GPI. UNI was number 8 last year in the last GPI in the regular season and they got a seed.

There has to be subjective criteria used by the committee to determine "the top four teams"... because they don't just rubber stamp the top 4 in the GPI.

[Skjellyfetti]

Either Richmond or William and Mary will beat App State by 2 scores, no matter the venue.

Can we re-title the thread, "Who has to spend $50 on gas to watch it happen"?

Wow, after all Bettina's jabbering last night... Richmond fans have picked up where the Elon fans left off. xcoffeex

I would love a rematch with Richmond... a healthy Armanti would as well. xnodx

[ChubbyCherub]

Let's say that the top 2 teams in the country are in 1 conference. They play each other and one has to beat the other. Should the team that lost be penalized out of a seed because they were matched up in a conference with the top team in the nation?

BTW I am not saying the top 2 teams in the country are in 1 conference. Just used that for an example.


Yes, it happens all the time in the NCAA basketball tourney they would never give Duke a top seed in a bracket if they didn't beat UNC for the ACC Championship. You have to win your conference in order to be rewarded with a seed. I dont see it as fair (or logically sound) to the teams that won their conference. Maybe im crazy but that just doesn't make sense in my mind to put a team that didn't win the conference on a higher rung than one that did.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Wow, after all Bettina's jabbering last night... Richmond fans have picked up where the Elon fans left off. xcoffeex

I would love a rematch with Richmond... a healthy Armanti would as well. xnodx

Is he going to be healthy this year?

I think there is a big difference between Elon and Richmond: We have actually won something.

[Skjellyfetti]

Is he going to be healthy this year?

His knee injury last year required surgery. This injury is a strain and he was able to come back into the Elon game. He'll be healthy for the playoffs. And I hope we play y'all again. Armanti does well in revenge games. xnodx Ask Georgia Southern and Wofford.

[tribe_pride]

And what is the criteria? It's one little sentence that is vague as hell. Whereas the selection of at larges gets sevaral paragraphs of pretty precise explanation.

They don't just pick the top 4 teams in the GPI. UNI was number 8 last year in the last GPI in the regular season and they got a seed.

There has to be subjective criteria used by the committee to determine "the top four teams"... because they don't just rubber stamp the top 4 in the GPI.

Not arguing with that but I think I should be able to get everyone's agreement that number of people in the stands should not have an effect which was in the quote that you quoted.

If that is not what you meant and you think that ASU is one of the top 4 teams, then you may have more of an argument but I haven't even seen ASU fans make the argument that ASU is a better team so far and the CAA seems to have presented more arguments for W&M/Richmond winner.

As to what is used, I think they have announced that they use a modified GPI as an indicator but not the final decision. What else they use is as good of a guess for you as it is for me.

[Skjellyfetti]

Not a seed selection criteria, irrelevant.

What is the seed selection criteria? NCAA doesn't say. xrulesx

[ChubbyCherub]

Not arguing with that but I think I should be able to get everyone's agreement that number of people in the stands should not have an effect which was in the quote that you quoted.

If that is not what you meant and you think that ASU is one of the top 4 teams, then you may have more of an argument but I haven't even seen ASU fans make the argument that ASU is a better team so far and the CAA seems to have presented more arguments for W&M/Richmond winner.

As to what is used, I think they have announced that they use a modified GPI as an indicator but not the final decision. What else they use is as good of a guess for you as it is for me.

Asu is a better team than any CAA team thaat doesnt win the conference

[tribe_pride]

Yes, it happens all the time in the NCAA basketball tourney they would never give Duke a top seed in a bracket if they didn't beat UNC for the ACC Championship. You have to win your conference in order to be rewarded with a seed. I dont see it as fair (or logically sound) to the teams that won their conference. Maybe im crazy but that just doesn't make sense in my mind to put a team that didn't win the conference on a higher rung than one that did.

In last year's NCAA tourney, the number 1 seeds were:
UConn - Big East
Pitt - Big East
Louisville - Big East
UNC - ACC

That's 3 teams from 1 conference. You only needed to look to last year


Asu is a better team than any CAA team thaat doesnt win the conference

Why do you say that? Not saying you are necessarily wrong, but based on performances this year, how can you say that? The CAA has already listed arguments contrary to that earlier in this thread.

[Tod]

Yeah the committee will be really impressed with your 2 point win over Idaho State. Lose to the Bobcats and you'll get one home game, no seed.

A two point WIN! vs your two losses (one for us if we lose to MSU). We'd have one more WIN than you. Plus a higher attendance and higher revenue. xthumbsupx

[Skjellyfetti]

A two point WIN! vs your two losses (one for us if we lose to MSU). We'd have one more WIN than you. Plus a higher attendance and higher revenue. xthumbsupx

(Still assuming, for the point of argument, that Montana State beats Montana)

Our extra loss should be irrelevant because Montana did not play anyone worth a damn in out of conference--including Western State... who the selection committe won't consider as a win.

Montana would have 9 D-I wins. Appalachian would have 9 D-I wins. Both losses would be to teams very similar in GPI. App's lone FCS would have been in the 2nd week of the season. Montana's lone FCS loss would have been in the last week of the season. Advantage App imo.

Higher attendance is in the air... we should have a very good turnout this weekend for Armanti's last game. We don't need to set a stadium record to have the highest attendance.

Higher revenue is a total guess on your part.

[RabidRabbit]

I'm reading this thread, and keep thinking that SCSU with no FCS losses seems to be a good #4 seed. Granted, they were vs MEAC & SWAC teams, but we're discounting these conferences like BCS does to the MWC & WAC. Will the selection committee be as willingly good down this route? SCSU is #4 in attendence in FCS. It would be good to recognize SCSU's abilities, and attendence.

This could send Elon to SCSU. xnodx

[ChubbyCherub]

In last year's NCAA tourney, the number 1 seeds were:
UConn - Big East
Pitt - Big East
Louisville - Big East
UNC - ACC

That's 3 teams from 1 conference. You only needed to look to last year



Why do you say that? Not saying you are necessarily wrong, but based on performances this year, how can you say that? The CAA has already listed arguments contrary to that earlier in this thread.

I was just being a rabble-rouser

when I get on my other computer where the processor can move at the speed I require to punctualy (and accurately this time) respond to you I will give a response while sticking to my guns: A non conference chanmp doesn't deserve a seed. Until then sir!

[Tod]

(Still assuming, for the point of argument, that Montana State beats Montana)

Our extra loss should be irrelevant because Montana did not play anyone worth a damn in out of conference--including Western State... who the selection committe won't consider as a win.

Montana would have 9 D-I wins. Appalachian would have 9 D-I wins. Both losses would be to teams very similar in GPI. App's lone FCS would have been in the 2nd week of the season. Montana's lone FCS loss would have been in the last week of the season. Advantage App imo.

Higher attendance is in the air... we should have a very good turnout this weekend for Armanti's last game. We don't need to set a stadium record to have the highest attendance.

Higher revenue is a total guess on your part.

You could be right on everything you say, I just don't like arguing with people who make absolute assumptions like that dude I was talking to.

On revenues, it's not a total guess, though I don't have anything (links) to back up my claim. A couple of years ago I read something that said that not only was Montana the only FCS team that shows a profit, its profit is (or was) about $2.5M per year. That's a huge profit if #2 is in the red.

Unless you're a student, you can't get into Wa/Griz for less than $30, for any game. Homecoming was $55. Another game (don't remember which) was $40. This, of course, is both good and bad.

How much does ASU charge for tickets and, more importantly, how much is it to sit on the grass in the end zone?

[AlphaSigMD]

Either Richmond or William and Mary will beat App State by 2 scores, no matter the venue.

Can we re-title the thread, "Who has to spend $50 on gas to watch it happen"?

It's amazing that you think that Richmond would do something that they haven't been able to do all season.

Richmond has beaten exactly 1 team with a winning record this season: Delaware @ 6-4, by one whole point.

Your opponents this season are a combined 45-57. The teams you have beaten are a combined 36-56.

You played Villanova tough, but lost. At home. You dodged New Hampshire.

You have beaten 1 (6-4) team, 4 (5-5) teams, 1 (4-6) team, 2 (2-8) teams and 1 (0-10) team.

Addressing your two scores theory: Richmond won by two scores over a 2 (5-5) teams, 1 (4-6) team, 1 (2-8) team and 1 (0-10 team). You won by less than two scores over 1 (6-4) team 2 (5-5) teams, and 1 (2-8) team.

How does this resume equal a team that will beat ASU by 2 TD's?

[Saint3333]

You could be right on everything you say, I just don't like arguing with people who make absolute assumptions like that dude I was talking to.



Yep no assumptions in your postsxcoffeex

[AlphaSigMD]

And to avoid any snippy retorts like "we sure won by two TD's last year" - keep in mind we beat you by exactly the same margin the year before.

[Tod]

Yep no assumptions in your postsxcoffeex

You're right, Saint, I misspoke. It wasn't your assumptions or predictions, it was your know-it-all absolutes. You get a different response from people when you don't seem to be willing to discuss, but rather dictate.

xcoffeex

[AlphaSigMD]

ASU has wins over 2 teams with winning records (6-4, 8-2)

ASU Opponents are a combined 51 - 48

[soccerguy315]

Yes, it happens all the time in the NCAA basketball tourney they would never give Duke a top seed in a bracket if they didn't beat UNC for the ACC Championship. You have to win your conference in order to be rewarded with a seed. I dont see it as fair (or logically sound) to the teams that won their conference. Maybe im crazy but that just doesn't make sense in my mind to put a team that didn't win the conference on a higher rung than one that did.

come on. All the low seeds in the NCAA bball tournament are conference winners, while power conference members are generally no lower than a 12 seed.

edit: I see you mentioned you were just rabble rousing... lol

[AlphaSigMD]

W&M Opponents: 49 - 49
4 wins over teams with winning records.
5 two score wins [teams: (8-2); CCSU, (5-5)JMU, 2(2-8)Towson,Northeastern, 1(1-9)URI]
Failed to get two score wins on [(3-7); UVA, (6-4); Norfolk State, (6-4); Delaware, (8-2); New Hampshire]

So, denying reality, W&M has a slightly bigger claim than Richmond to be able to beat ASU by two scores, because it has been able to beat 2 (8-2) teams, even though 1 was Central Conn State (by two scores) and the other was UNH (by a FG).

However, it still ain't happening.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

It's amazing that you think that Richmond would do something that they haven't been able to do all season.

Richmond has beaten exactly 1 team with a winning record this season: Delaware @ 6-4, by one whole point.

Your opponents this season are a combined 45-57. The teams you have beaten are a combined 36-56.

You played Villanova tough, but lost. At home. You dodged New Hampshire.

You have beaten 1 (6-4) team, 4 (5-5) teams, 1 (4-6) team, 2 (2-8) teams and 1 (0-10) team.

Addressing your two scores theory: Richmond won by two scores over a 2 (5-5) teams, 1 (4-6) team, 1 (2-8) team and 1 (0-10 team). You won by less than two scores over 1 (6-4) team 2 (5-5) teams, and 1 (2-8) team.

How does this resume equal a team that will beat ASU by 2 TD's?

Impressive. Did you have all that on the top of your head?

You've got me. We'll lose to you by 2 scores. xbowx

[AlphaSigMD]

ASU has 6 wins by 2 scores or more. Including the last 4 in a row.

[AlphaSigMD]

Impressive. Did you have all that on the top of your head?

You've got me. We'll lose to you by 2 scores. xbowx

No...I had help from Dr. Google.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Why should anyone care what NC Central's record versus Georgetown's record versus VMI's record versus Citadel's record?

The App fans are really anxious to throw out the computer ratings, which rates the CAA higher than a 1-A conference, and still has the SoCon below the Big Sky, MVC and Great West.

Last week it was below the OVC.

[Saint3333]

Tod I fail to see the difference between your absolute that Montana gets the seed over ASU and my absolute that if Montana loses to MSU they won't?

Perhaps I should have led with my thought process. If you lose, IMO ASU has a better resume (assuming ASU beats WCU of course). ASU's FCS loss would "better" than yours (ranked higher) and ASU's quality win would be ranked higher than your quality win. ASU's competitive game vs. ECU with a back up QB would also be considered vs. a D2 win. I don't think attendance and revenues come into play between ASU and Montana as they would between these two schools and the remainder of the FCS due to the large drop off after these two.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Additionally, if we go back to the original topic of this thread, App fans are trying to justify a seed by Attendance numbers.

We have been down to your place twice. Wouldn't it be fair to make you spend a few bucks on gas this year, as I have the last two years?

One of us will be proven wrong, wherever it happens.

[soccerguy315]

W&M Opponents: 49 - 49
4 wins over teams with winning records.
5 two score wins [teams: (8-2); CCSU, (5-5)JMU, 2(2-8)Towson,Northeastern, 1(1-9)URI]
Failed to get two score wins on [(3-7); UVA, (6-4); Norfolk State, (6-4); Delaware, (8-2); New Hampshire]

So, denying reality, W&M has a slightly bigger claim than Richmond to be able to beat ASU by two scores, because it has been able to beat 2 (8-2) teams, even though 1 was Central Conn State (by two scores) and the other was UNH (by a FG).

However, it still ain't happening.

W&M is not claiming a 2 score victory against ASU. xpeacex

Record also doesn't tell the whole story though... 3-7 UVA is a much more difficult opponent than 8-2 CCSU, for example.

[AlphaSigMD]

Why should anyone care what NC Central's record versus Georgetown's record versus VMI's record versus Citadel's record?

The App fans are really anxious to throw out the computer ratings, which rates the CAA higher than a 1-A conference, and still has the SoCon below the Big Sky, MVC and Great West.

Last week it was below the OVC.

I'll agree, it's not an exact science.

Also, since the decidedly worst team in our conference trounced the No. 3 team in the OVC this week (by more than 2 scores), one would tend to think that computer polls can be deceiving.

[AlphaSigMD]

W&M is not claiming a 2 score victory against ASU. xpeacex

Record also doesn't tell the whole story though... 3-7 UVA is a much more difficult opponent than 8-2 CCSU, for example.

Agreed, on both counts.

Also, I never meant to imply the W&M made such a statement. I just wanted to post it for the sake of completion.

It also makes think that W&M may have better chances at UR this weekend than first glance would indicate.

[Tod]

ASU has wins over 2 teams with winning records (6-4, 8-2)

ASU Opponents are a combined 51 - 48

All else being equal, that would give an edge to ASU over Montana. UM has wins over teams that are 7-3 and 6-4, but our opponents (excluding the D II game) are 38-55.

However, we have a game against a 7-3 team coming up and you have a game against a 2-8 team. If we both win (and that's a big assumption on our part) we'd finish;

UM 45-59
ASU 53-57

Edge to ASU, but much depends on OOC scheduling. I'm too lazy (be lying if I said I didn't have the time) to look up who SoCon teams played OOC. I know that Weber State lost two FBS teams by a total of six points, but still lost. I know Cal Poly lost two FBS games. I know NAU lost at least one, and so did MSU.

I have no idea how the SoCon scheduled OOC this year. I know ASU lost a good game against ECU, but that's all I know.

So I don't know how this would go as a direct comparison, but it appears ASU has the edge over Montana.

[ericsaid]

App had 486 yards against a defense who gave up an average of 206 yards per game before playing App. Elon avergaes 32 points per game and didn't have a touchdown until late in the fourth quarter. App domiated ELon. The closeness of the games against teams with similar sagarin rating have been much closer.

[Tod]

Tod I fail to see the difference between your absolute that Montana gets the seed over ASU and my absolute that if Montana loses to MSU they won't?

Perhaps I should have led with my thought process. If you lose, IMO ASU has a better resume (assuming ASU beats WCU of course). ASU's FCS loss would "better" than yours (ranked higher) and ASU's quality win would be ranked higher than your quality win. ASU's competitive game vs. ECU with a back up QB would also be considered vs. a D2 win. I don't think attendance and revenues come into play between ASU and Montana as they would between these two schools and the remainder of the FCS due to the large drop off after these two.

It's because you get in response what you lead with. If you looked my in the eye, puffed up your chest, had a mean look on your face and called me an a-hole, you'd get an entirely different response than if you smiled, held out your hand and called me an a-hole.

Your second paragraph is spot on. xpeacex

[asknoquarter21]

No way Montana won't get a seed.

Regardless of Resume and assuming they do in fact lose. Montana makes money AND is the only team in the West that is in contention for a seed. I think that fact alone will be enough to warrant them a seed.

Villanova, Montana, and SIU are locks for 3 seeds. If Montana loses this week they will get the 4 seed, but it is still a seed.

ASU, W&M/UR Winner is going to be a toss up and I think think they will play each other anyway, it is just up to the committee where they play.

[KiddBrewer]

like i said before, give the seed to wm/richmond winner. i want to go up there and get beat by 2 scores!xcoolx:)xcoffeex

[Tod]

like i said before, give the seed to wm/richmond winner. i want to go up there and get beat by 2 scores!xcoolx:)xcoffeex

That would be a helluva game! xnodxxnodxxnodx

[seattlespider]

Additionally, if we go back to the original topic of this thread, App fans are trying to justify a seed by Attendance numbers.

We have been down to your place twice. Wouldn't it be fair to make you spend a few bucks on gas this year, as I have the last two years?

One of us will be proven wrong, wherever it happens.

Which was truly outrageous, IMO.

[hapapp]

I don't see App fans justifying a seed. I don't recall anyone (though it is possible, this is a lengthy thread) saying we deserved a seed. The argument was that it was not outside the realm of the possible. I think most App fans understand that we aren't likely to get a seed unless some strange things happen this weekend. We, of course, have to take care of business as well.

My guess is we get a home game and then, if we survive that, hit the road. Of course, we faced a similar scenario in 2007 and wound up playing at home until the final.

[Green26]

After looking at the attendance figures combined with the views of some CAA posters (saying they deserve seeds despite their losses), I can only assume they want to bankrupt the playoffs and the ncaa.

[UNH Fanboi]

After looking at the attendance figures combined with the views of some CAA posters (saying they deserve seeds despite their losses), I can only assume they want to bankrupt the playoffs and the ncaa.

I hope the bankrupting the NCAA thing is sarcasm. We're talking about a 1-loss Richmond or W&M getting a seed over a 2-loss ASU. So yeah they would deserve a seed despite their loss.

Any way you slice it (except attendance) ,the winner of the Richmond-W&M game deserves a seed over ASU:

W-L record - Richmond/W&M
FBS win - Richmond/W&M
Bigger wins - Richmond/W&M
Better loss - Richmond/W&M
Strength of schedule - Richmond/W&M
Computer ranking - Richmond/W&M
Human poll ranking - Richmond/W&M (don't see how ASU could possibly leap frog the winner in any reasonable human polls)

If ASU gets a seed over the winner of Richmond/W&M, the seeding process is a complete crock of ****. The NCAA is a non-profit organization. The fact that money comes into the playoff equation at all is crap. It's not asking too much that money doesn't come into the equation when even the NCAA says it's not supposed to.

[Skjellyfetti]

Which was truly outrageous, IMO.

I'm not trying to justify App getting a seed... I'm only saying they use some pretty subjective criteria to determine seeds... not just 1-4 of the GPI.

UNI #8 over #4 Villanova last year... very similar resumes... UNI probably bid WAY above Nova. UNI got the seed.

Also, I could only find brackets back to 2005... but, when was the last time 2 teams from the same conference got seeds? It's definitely been a long time if ever... The NCAA obviously doesn't like doing it.

[UNH Fanboi]

I'm not trying to justify App getting a seed... I'm only saying they use some pretty subjective criteria to determine seeds... not just 1-4 of the GPI.

UNI #8 over #4 Villanova last year... very similar resumes... UNI probably bid WAY above Nova. UNI got the seed.

Also, I could only find brackets back to 2005... but, when was the last time 2 teams from the same conference got seeds? It's definitely been a long time if ever... The NCAA obviously doesn't like doing it.

Villanova got hosed big time last year. They had wins over two playoff teams and their only FCS loss was a very close loss to the #1 seed. UNI lost to SIU and didn't have any big wins.

[Saluki09]

I'm not trying to justify App getting a seed... I'm only saying they use some pretty subjective criteria to determine seeds... not just 1-4 of the GPI.

UNI #8 over #4 Villanova last year... very similar resumes... UNI probably bid WAY above Nova. UNI got the seed.

Also, I could only find brackets back to 2005... but, when was the last time 2 teams from the same conference got seeds? It's definitely been a long time if ever... The NCAA obviously doesn't like doing it.

2007...

UNI #1 seed
SIU #4 seed

[Skjellyfetti]

Villanova got hosed big time last year. They had wins over two playoff teams and their only FCS loss was a very close loss to the #1 seed. UNI lost to SIU and didn't have any big wins.

EXACTLY.

The playoff committe uses criteria to select the seeded teams that noone knows.

Only sentence in NCAA handbook on how they select seeds:


The top four teams in the 16-team bracket for the championship will be seeded.

http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/champ_handbooks/football/2009/09_1AA_Football.pdf

One vague sentence. For their selection of at large qualifiers they have paragraph upon paragraph of criteria.

I'm not arguing Appalachian should have a seed... I'm arguing that the NCAA does some wacky stuff (a lot of the time for money). I think UNI got the seed last year based on their bid over Villanova. It could happen again.

[Eight Legger]

I have faith that the committee will do what is appropriate and will not turn this into the annual Montana/App State Invitational Tournament unless it is justified.

[putter]

Who wants a seed anyway....JMU won it in 2004 without a seed or a home game. Last year Richmond won it without a seed...App St. in 2007 without a seed. The more I think about it, you don't want a seed ;)

P.S --> I don't buy the when you lose not if. If the Griz lose to MSU I think it is 50-50 that it costs them their seed. This is the biggest game of the year and a huge rivalry game. The Cats could be 0-10 right now and will play the Griz tough as hell and vice versa and dont go thinking that the commitee doesn't know this. If SIU wins, VU and and UR win then I see Montana holding onto the 4 but if W&M wins then I could easily see Montana dropping out and W&M or App sliding into that seed.

[CDT_Wilson]

Everyone is placing a lot of emphasis on seeding and home games. As long as they get the right teams in the playoffs, a truly good team will find a way to win.

[hapapp]

When was the last time the top 4 seeds all won on the first weekend of the playoffs?


I guess I should looked for I leaped...it was last year.

[SCSUBULLDOG1]

Don't forget about SCSU who had only a little over 10,000 at last home game but still averaging over 19,000. With the NCA&T game which many fans consider the game of the year the numbers will realy go up. There will probably be over 25,000fand in attendance.

[putter]

I still have a hard time getting my arms around how/why the NCAA cheapens their only football championship using the $$ excuse. Their March Madness contract is worth, what, a BILLION $$$ over 10 years xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx