SAT requirements for players

[LegalGaSouthernEagle]

The latest excuse being made for Chris Hatcher and the current state of the athletic program is interesting.
The latest excuse is that when the APR sanctions hit GSU, our president Dr. Grube raised the admission standards for players to an unrealistic level, and that what we see on the field today is directly attributable to that. The story is that our admission requirement for our players is a 920 SAT, and that number is hand cuffing us. in my opinion, this is an excuse cooked up by Sam Baker's and Chris Hatcher's cronies to deflect blame from the real culprits.
Help me understand if this is true. What are the admission requirements for players at all of your respective schools in terms of SAT?
Thanks. Links would be helpful when possible.

[Sader87]

The College of the Holy Cross doesn't require SAT's.

http://www.holycross.edu/admissions/apply/

[superman7515]

The Atlanta Journal & Constitution did a report a few years back finding that SAT scores averaged hundreds of points lower for football players than the normal students that are admitted to schools. Here's some examples from that study and others I found, note that many of them have averages that are over 920.

Notre Dame 1370 (ranked #11 in the nation by Rivals.com)
Georgia Tech, 1028
Oregon State, 997
Michigan, 997
Virginia, 993
Purdue, 974
Indiana, 973
Hawaii, 968
California, 967
Colorado, 966
Iowa, 964
Oregon, 953
Georgia, 949
Michigan State, 917
Washington State, 916
Mississippi State, 911
Texas A&M, 911
Arkansas, 910
Texas Tech, 901
Florida, 890 - Largest gap between normal students avg and football players avg (football players are -346 compared to non-football incoming students)
Memphis, 890
Louisville, 878
Oklahoma State, 878

I know it's FBS, but you've got to figure that they're looking for the best regardless of academics, so for them to be averaging over and having success, an FCS team with those limits should be able to succeed as well.

[Reign of Terrier]

In 2006 (if I'm not mistaken) Wofford had the highest SAT average in the nation

[superman7515]

For just the football team or the school as a whole?

[Sader87]

If the ND football team averaged 1370 (old scoring on the SAT...out of a possible 1600) I will quit drinking altogether right here, right now.

[Reign of Terrier]

For just the football team or the school as a whole?

Football team

[superman7515]

Okay. I know this one is old, but "The average freshman football player who entered Duke from 1992 to 1995 had earned a high-school grade-point average (G.P.A.) of 3.3 and a score of 1023 on the Scholastic Assessment Test (S.A.T.)." And that's to play for a team that wasn't going anywhere after Spurrier left for Florida.

[rcny46]

If the ND football team averaged 1370 (old scoring on the SAT...out of a possible 1600) I will quit drinking altogether right here, right now.

Me too.That figure can't be right.

[LegalGaSouthernEagle]

The exact rumor is that Grube raised the SAT standards, and eliminated some sort of "special admissions" program for borderline cases. The Sam Baker followers are saying that the reason GSU athletics are in such a sorry state is due to Grube raising the standards, and not Sam Baker's fault at all.
Furthermore, they say that Grube made it a fireable offense to discuss this new policy in public, and that Sam Baker has basically been a good soldier and taken the bullet for Grube's policy.
I think it's bull, and I think it's just another excuse.

That said, even if it is true, you can't tell me that our standards are higher than furman, wofford, or some of those other private SoCon schools. Talk about a red herring. This one is rotten, and it stinks to high heaven.

[superman7515]

I found another site that contradicts the Notre Dame claim... "The average SAT score for Notre Dame football players in 1997 (I couldn't find results from more recent years) was 899." I think the other article incorrectly used the school as a whole, not the football team. It seemed ridiculously inflated to me as well.

Two more:
Ohio State, 818
Miami, 803

Also, in case anyone didn't already know, there is Prop 48 & 16 which give you the minimum's if you care to look.

[Sader87]

Me too.That figure can't be right.

There's NO WAY that is correct...1370 (average) on the SAT's is higher than the average score for ALL students accepted at Notre Dame.

[SeattleGriz]

Bottom line. These guys are not attending college for scholastic endeavors.

Before anyone blows a gasket, I am all for it. Look at how much money they bring into the schools.

[Sader87]

Bottom line. These guys are not attending college for scholastic endeavors.

Before anyone blows a gasket, I am all for it. Look at how much money they bring into the schools.

Uhmmm....so why are they going to college?

[blukeys]

The latest excuse being made for Chris Hatcher and the current state of the athletic program is interesting.
The latest excuse is that when the APR sanctions hit GSU, our president Dr. Grube raised the admission standards for players to an unrealistic level, and that what we see on the field today is directly attributable to that. The story is that our admission requirement for our players is a 920 SAT, and that number is hand cuffing us. in my opinion, this is an excuse cooked up by Sam Baker's and Chris Hatcher's cronies to deflect blame from the real culprits.
Help me understand if this is true. What are the admission requirements for players at all of your respective schools in terms of SAT?
Thanks. Links would be helpful when possible.

Is there anything that is published on this???? I find this curious as we have discussed this topic ad nauseum on Patriot League threads when discussing what is called the academic index. I have pointed out that at large schools such as Delaware there aren't overall University admission requirements so much as there are separate Individual College requirements. An overall school requirement such as one SAT score and GPA is ok when comparing smaller liberal arts schools such as one would find in the Patriot League. Thus Lafayette's admission standard is comparable to Bucknell's and Colgate's standards are comparable to Wofford's. For the most part smaller liberal arts schools can use one standard for their admissions because their curriculum is not as diverse as a larger state school.

The Patriot League calls their standards for athlete the Academic Index. In fact it is an admission standard that is lower than for regular students. So athletes at these schools do get an admission advantage over non athletes but it is not significantly lower. This makes sense. While a school may be willing to take a chance on lower standards for an athlete, it makes little sense to accept a student athlete who in no way has adequate preparation to succeed academically. Athletes who drop out after one year are a waste of resources both academically and athletically for the institution. So while some coaches may think that lower standards help getting certain recuits, the truth is too low of standards just guarantee a merry go round of new recurits and high academic failure rates.

I have argued (and no one disagrees) that all schools have a type of Academic Index but that at larger schools the admission process is determined by the type of program an applicant wishes to enter.

For instance at UD one is not admitted to the University but to a specific College at the University. The University has Colleges of:
Engineering
Nursing
Business and Economics
Arts and Sciences
Agriculture
Food and Nutrition (I might be wrong on this title it is the Old Home Economics)
Education

The standards for admission to each of these colleges vary. The admission standards for someone wishing to enter a program for Chemical Engineering are more rigorous than one deciding to become an Elementary School Teacher. Again in the case of UD there is a sort of Academic Index for athletes wishing to enter these programs. A recruited athlete would have easier standards than a regular student in admittance to any of these programs. At the same time a recruited athlete would face a more rigorous set of standards in gaining admission to the College of Engineering then a regular student would face in gaining admission to the College of Education. This is why comparing admission standards between schools such as Lafayette and Delaware are meaningless. Lafayette can reasonably expect that almost all of their students were accepted under the same set of academic standards. The University of Delaware cannot. (I know you have read in certain publications that these schools have SAT and GPA standards. Meeting those standards do not assure you entry into the more rigorous Colleges such as Engineering and Nursing)

At larger schools Recruiters and counselors can steer a recurit to a College (Within the University) that has less stringent admission standards, with a corresponding lower Academic Index for athletes. Usually this is the College of Education (Sorry for all you teachers out there).

Now back to your question. I don't know how GSU admits students and I don't know which of your programs are considered to be the top drawer and rigorous programs. I can assure you that there is a wide gap for admissions from the top academic programs at UD and those more pedestrian colleges and majors. It does not make sense to me that a school the size of GSU has one standard for All the myriad of programs they have.

I can see the President raising what would be the GSU academic index from say 80% of the regular student to 85% of the regular student criteria and this may have come to some overall general average of 920 on the SAT for an overall average from all of the GSU programs but this in no way means that every football recruit need score a 920 especially if most of the GSU recurits apply to some of the less rigorous programs.

Sorry to say that you have more homework to do regarding the structure of GSU and what are the highly regarded academic programs and what are the not so highly regarded programs. I would start with what are the individual requirements for regular GSU students for admission to certain programs and colleges.

I would be suspicious of anyone placing blame on academic standards for a programs failure. Are the current standards more rigorous than your conference mates such as Wofford or Furman?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Is there anything that is published on this???? I find this curious as we have discussed this topic ad nauseum on Patriot League threads when discussing what is called the academic index.

Ergo, I think the answer for Georgia Southern's problems is to have football scholarships. Starting next year. xlolx

[blukeys]

Ergo, I think the answer for Georgia Southern's problems is to have football scholarships. Starting next year. xlolx

LOL xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx

And thanks for not getting into a detailed argument on the Academic Index. I know I was over simplifying but I was trying to convey a concept and to demonstrate how different institutions handle admissions.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The College of the Holy Cross doesn't require SAT's.

http://www.holycross.edu/admissions/apply/

Neither does Lafayette College.

http://www.lafayette.edu/admissions/requirements.html

[seattlespider]

If the ND football team averaged 1370 (old scoring on the SAT...out of a possible 1600) I will quit drinking altogether right here, right now.

No kidding. That would nearly qualify you for an academic scholarship of some kind!

[Franks Tanks]

In 2006 (if I'm not mistaken) Wofford had the highest SAT average in the nation

You are mistaken unless that is an anomoly. The Ivy players all have SAT's in the 1300 and 1400. A few sneak in with 1200's but that have limited slots available.

Most PL players have at least a 1200 these days, and the average is probably closer to 1300 or so.

[CrusaderBob]

The College of the Holy Cross doesn't require SAT's.

http://www.holycross.edu/admissions/apply/



Neither does Lafayette College.

http://www.lafayette.edu/admissions/requirements.html

While you are both technically correct for general admissions, the atheles still have to submit their SAT scores because the PL Academic Index is derived from High School Grades and Test Scores. So the SAT - or possibly the ACT - is required for athletes.

[OL FU]

The latest excuse being made for Chris Hatcher and the current state of the athletic program is interesting.
The latest excuse is that when the APR sanctions hit GSU, our president Dr. Grube raised the admission standards for players to an unrealistic level, and that what we see on the field today is directly attributable to that. The story is that our admission requirement for our players is a 920 SAT, and that number is hand cuffing us. in my opinion, this is an excuse cooked up by Sam Baker's and Chris Hatcher's cronies to deflect blame from the real culprits.
Help me understand if this is true. What are the admission requirements for players at all of your respective schools in terms of SAT?
Thanks. Links would be helpful when possible.

Sounds to me like some is desperate. xnodx

[Bogus Megapardus]

While you are both technically correct for general admissions, the atheles still have to submit their SAT scores because the PL Academic Index is derived from High School Grades and Test Scores. So the SAT - or possibly the ACT - is required for athletes.

There must be an exception to the AI because a walk-on who is admitted with the standard applicant pool, but who did not take the SAT, still could play. Having said that, it is clear that virtually every applicant at both colleges has taken the SAT (and SAT II, and probably a couple of APs as well; was probably at the top of his H.S. class, played several sports and was team captain in each of them). I think Sader87's point is somewhat more sublime, however. :)

[superman7515]

For instance at UD one is not admitted to the University but to a specific College at the University. The University has Colleges of:
Engineering
Nursing
Business and Economics
Arts and Sciences
Agriculture
Food and Nutrition (I might be wrong on this title it is the Old Home Economics)
Education


The Colleges are:
Alfred Lerner College of Business and Economics
College of Arts and Sciences
College of Agriculture and Natural Resources
College of Engineering
College of Health Sciences
College of Education and Public Policy
College of Earth, Ocean, and Environment

There is no "old home economics".

[superman7515]

There must be an exception to the AI because a walk-on who is admitted with the standard applicant pool, but who did not take the SAT, still could play. Having said that, it is clear that virtually every applicant at both colleges has taken the SAT (and SAT II, and probably a couple of APs as well; was probably at the top of his H.S. class, played several sports and was team captain in each of them). I think Sader87's point is somewhat more sublime, however. :)

I thought even a walk on would have had to take something because NCAA Proposition 48 requires a minimum score of 700 on the SAT or 17 on the ACT as well as a minimum GPA of 2.0 in 13 core classes (was 11, moved to 13 with Prop 16) or they were forced to sit out for a year and then they have to meet the academic requirements for a typical sophomore.

[401ks]

I thought even a walk on would have had to take something because NCAA Proposition 48 requires a minimum score of 700 on the SAT or 17 on the ACT as well as a minimum GPA of 2.0 in 13 core classes (was 11, moved to 13 with Prop 16) or they were forced to sit out for a year and then they have to meet the academic requirements for a typical sophomore.

xcoffeex

Correction:

As of August 1, 2008 Division I eligibility requires 16 core classes (up from 14).

DIVISION I
16 Core-Course Rule

16 Core Courses:
4 years of English.
3 years of mathematics (Algebra I or higher).
2 years of natural/physical science (1 year of lab if offered by high school).
1 year of additional English, mathematics or natural/physical science.
2 years of social science.
4 years of additional courses (from any area above, foreign language or nondoctrinal religion/philosophy).

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/af238a804e0b869285bcf51ad6fc8b25/Quick+Reference+Sheet+for+IE+Standards+-+6-18-09.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=af238a804e0b869285bcf51ad6fc8b25

[tandemlax]

Couldn't find anything regarding the William & Mary football team specifically, but this 2006 report places the average SAT for scholarship athletes at 1150, below the overall student body average of 1450, but well above some of the FBS numbers published earlier in this thread.

http://web.wm.edu/news/archive/index.php?id=5603

[WestCoastAggie]

Bottom line. These guys are not attending college for scholastic endeavors.

Before anyone blows a gasket, I am all for it. Look at how much money they bring into the schools.

Why not just pay the players instead of wasting their time in forcing them to go to class and follow other guidelines that STUDENTS have to follow?

Apparently money is the number one goal for these schools so treat athletes in Revenue Generating Sports as employees then.

[soccerguy315]

Couldn't find anything regarding the William & Mary football team specifically, but this 2006 report places the average SAT for scholarship athletes at 1150, below the overall student body average of 1450, but well above some of the FBS numbers published earlier in this thread.

http://web.wm.edu/news/archive/index.php?id=5603

I don't know if you just made a typo, but the average W&M student SAT score is in the 1350 range, not 1450.

I would expect the majority of the W&M football players to be over 1100.

[tandemlax]

I don't know if you just made a typo, but the average W&M student SAT score is in the 1350 range, not 1450.

I would expect the majority of the W&M football players to be over 1100.

Just got that off the first google hit I saw- could be outdated or just plain wrong. Another look definitely points toward your 1350 number. Thanks for the correction.

[Bogus Megapardus]

If you're looking for the smartest playoff team, it would be among William & Mary, Holy Cross and Richmond. If the Ivy played, it would be Penn, hands down.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

The latest excuse being made for Chris Hatcher and the current state of the athletic program is interesting.
The latest excuse is that when the APR sanctions hit GSU, our president Dr. Grube raised the admission standards for players to an unrealistic level, and that what we see on the field today is directly attributable to that. The story is that our admission requirement for our players is a 920 SAT, and that number is hand cuffing us. in my opinion, this is an excuse cooked up by Sam Baker's and Chris Hatcher's cronies to deflect blame from the real culprits.
Help me understand if this is true. What are the admission requirements for players at all of your respective schools in terms of SAT?
Thanks. Links would be helpful when possible.

Of course. All of this is just a rumor disseminated by Sam Baker and his minions to save his own skin. xrolleyesx

This is an issue that has been discussed on GSU's subscriber board for quite some time. People who are actually in the know have known for a while that Bruce Grube has went way overboard to compensate for APR problems and has done everything he can to keep people from knowing about it.

We need to realize that we aren't Furman or Wofford and we (like pretty much all of the public schools in the FCS) don't have the academics to attract the athletes that are both good students and athletic enough to be worthy of an elite FCS team.

We need to join the OVC for football if we aren't going to be serious about it. Or just scrap it altogether and be a basketball school like Chucktown and Davie.

[HoyaMetanoia]

While the index does raise the standards somewhat, I was told by a Yale coach that each year, they have AT MOST one recruit that would be admitted through the regular admissions pool. Similarly, I know that very few if any of Georgetown's current players had SAT scores anywhere near the middle 50% of the 2009 freshman class. We had one kid last year who, I believe, got close to a perfect score, but beyond that, even the high band kids mostly got that bump from GPAs and class ranks at relatively uncompetitive high schools (although there are exceptions, like Greenwich).

[DFW HOYA]

While the index does raise the standards somewhat, I was told by a Yale coach that each year, they have AT MOST one recruit that would be admitted through the regular admissions pool. Similarly, I know that very few if any of Georgetown's current players had SAT scores anywhere near the middle 50% of the 2009 freshman class. We had one kid last year who, I believe, got close to a perfect score, but beyond that, even the high band kids mostly got that bump from GPAs and class ranks at relatively uncompetitive high schools (although there are exceptions, like Greenwich).

Actually, the way the PL index works, most almost HAVE to be in the middle 50%, which puts them between 1270-1420.

Georgetown's middle 50% isn't a complete barometer because a lot of kids above 1400 get rejected regardless. GPA takes a marked precedent over SAT's.

[LegalGaSouthernEagle]

Of course. All of this is just a rumor disseminated by Sam Baker and his minions to save his own skin. xrolleyesx

This is an issue that has been discussed on GSU's subscriber board for quite some time. People who are actually in the know have known for a while that Bruce Grube has went way overboard to compensate for APR problems and has done everything he can to keep people from knowing about it.
So where is the proof of the policy? All I hear is "so and so told me this", and "somebody in the know told me that". I'm not sure I buy it. The ship is sinking at GSU, and the rats are positioning themselves to survive a purge.
what is Grube's incentive to hide this new policy?
The conspiracy theories are a little silly at this point. Is it the academic standards that are making us throw screen passes every other play?

[HoyaMetanoia]

Actually, the way the PL index works, most almost HAVE to be in the middle 50%, which puts them between 1270-1420.

Georgetown's middle 50% isn't a complete barometer because a lot of kids above 1400 get rejected regardless. GPA takes a marked precedent over SAT's.

Excuse me. I was under the impression that the middle 50% was significantly higher (1350ish and up).

[soccerguy315]

Actually, the way the PL index works, most almost HAVE to be in the middle 50%, which puts them between 1270-1420.

Georgetown's middle 50% isn't a complete barometer because a lot of kids above 1400 get rejected regardless. GPA takes a marked precedent over SAT's.

The athletes (as a whole) are at the bottom of every school's admitted students. If they aren't in the bottom quartile at Georgetown, who is? White kids who can pay full tuition? Children of donors? Native Americans?

[HoyaMetanoia]

The athletes (as a whole) are at the bottom of every school's admitted students. If they aren't in the bottom quartile at Georgetown, who is? White kids who can pay full tuition? Children of donors? Native Americans?

I would venture a guess to say that they are in the bottom quartile.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

So where is the proof of the policy? All I hear is "so and so told me this", and "somebody in the know told me that". I'm not sure I buy it. The ship is sinking at GSU, and the rats are positioning themselves to survive a purge.
what is Grube's incentive to hide this new policy?
The conspiracy theories are a little silly at this point. Is it the academic standards that are making us throw screen passes every other play?

Try calling any of the offices in the athletics department and asking them if admission standards for athletes have changed. They won't talk to you about it because Grube doesn't want it to be discussed. I know some GSU faculty and have been hearing for a long time about the secretiveness of Grube's administration. A lot of people who know a lot more than you know this to be true. I can guarantee you Hatcher is not going to be fired as long as Grube's policy is in effect.

[straightshooter]

The NCAA minimum SAT is around 780 with a GPA around 2.0. Grube did change the GSU requirement minimum for athletes to 920 SAT. Most schools use a "special admit" provision for athletes. For instance, more than 50% of the athletes admitted to schools like UCLA, Clemson, LSU, Louisville and Texas A&M get in on the "special admit" provision. At the University of Georgia, 73.5% of all athletes get in on the "special admit" provision.

Word is that Grube did away with that provision for athletes at GSU as well. I know for an absolute fact that GSU has lost recruits to other FCS schools. Two RB who come to mind signed with GSU and either couldn't qualify for admission or left because of grades and wound up elsewhere. Pat Paschall at NDSU and Steve Baylark at Delaware are the two. Both were GSU signees who played well elsewhere.

[tribe_pride]

I don't know if you just made a typo, but the average W&M student SAT score is in the 1350 range, not 1450.

I would expect the majority of the W&M football players to be over 1100.

I am pretty sure the coaching staff (in any sport including football) is not allowed to look at a high schooler unless they have a 1000. I have heard that from a number of different sources. The coaches also need to make sure that athletes can handle the curriculum so it is rare that a 1000 alone will get you in.

[soccerguy315]

I am pretty sure the coaching staff (in any sport including football) is not allowed to look at a high schooler unless they have a 1000. I have heard that from a number of different sources. The coaches also need to make sure that athletes can handle the curriculum so it is rare that a 1000 alone will get you in.

according to the link from the poster I was responding to, male athletes score roughly 200 points below the average, which would put them into the 1150 range. I doubt many people with a 1000 would last very long at W&M. Doesn't do any good to recruit someone who isn't going to be able to stay on the team.

[Tribe4SF]

according to the link from the poster I was responding to, male athletes score roughly 200 points below the average, which would put them into the 1150 range. I doubt many people with a 1000 would last very long at W&M. Doesn't do any good to recruit someone who isn't going to be able to stay on the team.

Your last sentence is at the heart of the W&M admission policy for athletes. There's a special review of football recruits which examines their academic resume, and makes a determination of their probable success at W&M as a student. The football staff does not waste time pursuing recruits who have academic ground to make up going into their senior year of high school. I'm sure they have some who need to show SAT improvement in the Fall, but the track record of gpa, and course selection must be there. The results can be seen in the fact that about 75% of the current team were NHS students in high school, as well as in the APR and graduation rates over the years. W&M athletes on the whole graduate at a significantly higher rate than the general student body.

While the GSU situation may be different in terms of academic requirements, the need for cooperation between the admissions department, and the athletic department is the same. While the APR system may be flawed, I think its intent is good. Schools should be accountable for recruiting athletes who can be successful in the classroom.

[seantaylor]

This is BS. A total ploy to save Hatcher and Sammy's job. You won't find a hard link to this anywhere. Just mainly nutriders are spewing this. I know for a fact a ton of current GSU players that don't have a 920 SAT.

[LegalGaSouthernEagle]

This is BS. A total ploy to save Hatcher and Sammy's job. You won't find a hard link to this anywhere. Just mainly nutriders are spewing this. I know for a fact a ton of current GSU players that don't have a 920 SAT.
Grube seemed to put this issue to bed in the press conference, but many still seem stuck on it. Hatcher had 18 exceptions in 3 recruiting classes. 60% of those kids are no longer with the team. For a school that has APR scholarship issues all over the place, one would think that offering any more exceptions than those 18, would be stupid, incredibly risky, and could potentially put us even further behind the 8 ball by losing more schollies.
People are in denial about Hatcher. The guy sucked as a head coach at this level, and the evidence was the pathetic playcalling and product on the field. This academics issue is the biggest red herring of all time.
I'm no fan of Sam Baker, and I believe he needs to follow Hatcher out the door. However, the correct call was made to cut bait with Hatcher.