Big Sky vs CAA by Sagarin numbers.....

[GrizNzonecrazy]

Ok so in my boredom and after spending way too long browsing the boards and reading anti BSC/anti Griz posts repeatedly, i decided to do some studying. This is what resulted:

First we have the CAA:

Team - Record - Sagarin Rank - Avg Sag. Rank of Conf Opps - Avg Sag. Rank of OOC Opps - Avg Sag. Rank of All Opps

UNH ---------------(8-1) - 98 - 137.75 - 202.33 - 155.36
UMass ------------(5-4) - 115 - 134.25 - 135.33 - 134.55
Maine -------------(4-5) - 147 - 130.25 - 172.00 - 134.36
Hofstra -----------(4-5) - 154 - 129.38 - 166.33 - 139.46
Northeastern ----(1-8) - 192 - 126.00 - 110.67 - 121.82
URI ----------------(1-8) - 193 - 125.88 - 137.33 - 129.00

Villanova ---------(8-1) - 46 - 125.50 - 138.67 - 129.09
Richmond --------(8-1) - 57 - 118.75 - 178.33 - 135.00
William & Mary --(8-1) - 60 - 126.75 - 136.00 - 129.27
Delaware --------(6-3) - 116 - 111.38 - 158.67 - 124.64
JMU ---------------(4-5) - 117 - 111.25 - 150.67 - 122.00
Towson ----------(2-7) - 195 - 109.88 - 153.33 - 121.73

And now for the BSC:

Team - Record - Sagarin Rank - Avg Sag. Rank of Conf Opps - Avg Sag. Rank of OOC Opps - Avg Sag. Rank of All Opps

UM ----(9-0) - 80 - 144.87 - 170.33 - 151.82
EWU --(6-3) - 103 - 142.00 - 133.00 - 139.55
NAU ---(5-4) - 109 - 141.25 - 60.00 - 119.10
WSU --(5-4) - 113 - 140.75 - 113.33 - 133.27
MSU ---(6-3) - 122 - 139.63 - 149.33 - 142.27
CSUS --(4-5) - 158 - 135.13 - 121.33 - 131.36
UNC ---(3-7) - 174 - 133.13 - 148.0 - 137.18
PSU ---(2-8) - 176 - 132.88 - 131.00 - 132.26
ISU ---(0-10) - 204 - 129.38 - 108.67 - 123.72

Average Sagarin Ranking of CAA teams is 124.16
Average Sagarin Ranking of BSC teams is 137.66
Average Sagarin Ranking of all CAA opponents (Strength of schedule) = 131.37
Average Sagarin Ranking of all BSC opponents = 134.51

The difference in the entire SOS for all teams in CAA and BSC is only a 3.14 point edge to the CAA. And if only averaging the Top 5 BSC and Top 6 CAA teams it is even a narrower 137.20 BSC and 134.65 CAA. A difference of only 2.55 points.


For future purposes assume Top 5 BSC teams to be UM, EWU, NAU, WSU, and MSU
For future purposes assume Top 6 CAA teams to be Nova, Richmond, W&M, UNH, Delaware, and UMass
Also assume in the CAA that Richmond beats Georgetown and Delaware loses to Navy on 11/14
Assume for the BSC that EWU beats SUU on 11/14 and Weber beats Cal Poly on 11/21
And last, as D-2 teams do not have Sagarin Ratings and hence do not have a rank, i used a rank of 246 which is one lower than the worst Division 1 team for all D-2 teams to calculate averages.

Total OOC Record by Top 6 CAA - 16-2 (11-0 vs FCS)(1-0 vs D-2)(4-2 vs FBS)
Total OOC Record by Top 5 BSC - 9-6 (6-0 vs FCS)(3-0 vs D-2)(0-6 vs FBS)
Total OOC Record by All CAA - 23-13 (21-5 vs FCS)(2-0 vs D-2)(4-8 vs FBS)
Total OOC Record by All BSC - 12-14 (9-2 vs FCS)(3-1 vs D-2)(0-11 vs FBS)

A) Average Sagarin Ranking of All OOC teams faced by CAA Top 6 = 158.2
A) Average Sagarin Ranking of All OOC teams faced by BSC Top 5 = 125.2
B) Average Sagarin Ranking of All OOC teams which CAA Top 6 defeated = 171.5
B) Average Sagarin Ranking of All OOC teams which BSC Top 5 defeated = 171.7
C) Average Sagarin Ranking of All OOC teams which defeated CAA Top 6 = 52.0
C) Average Sagarin Ranking of All OOC teams which defeated BSC Top 5 = 55.3

*Note the 33 point difference in the level of competition faced by the BSC as opposed to the CAA

D) Average Sagarin Ranking of FBS Opponents of Top 6 CAA teams = 77.83
D) Average Sagarin Ranking of FBS Opponents of Top 5 BSC teams = 55.33
E) Average Sagarin Ranking of FCS OOC Opponents of Top 6 CAA teams = 194.09
E) Average Sagarin Ranking of FCS OOC Opponents of Top 5 BSC teams = 134.67

*Note the 59.42 point difference in FCS OOC level of competition faced by the BSC as opposed to the CAA
*Also note that there is a 22.5 point difference in strength of FBS opponents faced by BSC

From exhibits B and C above, its reasonable to say that the CAA and the BSC essentially fared the same in OOC play. The CAA posted more OOC wins but also played a weaker OOC schedule by 23 points per team as shown in exhibit A.

From exhibit D i believe it can be reasoned that the CAA won 4 FBS games this season as to none for the BSC due to the 22.5 point gap in strength of their opponents as opposed to ours.

Listed below will be the FBS opponents of the Top 6 CAA teams with the results and the Top 5 BSC teams with the results (Winning teams will be in bold):

Nova 27 @ Temple 24
Richmond 24 @ Duke 16
W&M 26@ Virginia 14
UNH 23 @ Ball St 16
UMass 17 @ Kansas St 21
Delaware ?? @ Navy ??

Weber St 22 @ Wyoming 29
Weber St 23 @ Colorado St 24
EWU 7 @ Cal 59
NAU 17 @ Arizona 34
NAU 14 @ Mississippi 38
MSU 3 @ Michigan St 44

If we use the the top team in FCS based on the Sagarin Ratings which is Villanova at #46 with a 76.13 rating (not to be confused with the position rankings used above) and factor in the 3.11 point advantage given to home teams (as all FCS vs FBS games occur on the FBS field), all teams ranked #55 (Wake Forest with a 72.96 rating) and lower should be winnable games for the top tier FCS teams.

Team - Sagarin Ranking - Observation

Temple - 65 - Villanova got the win vs a team that they would have been favored against on a neutral field.
Duke - 70 - Again, Richmond won a game that, according to the ratings, would've been basically a pick em.
Virginia - 66 - William & Mary had the best win of the CAA teams but the game was still technically a winnable one according to Virginia's #66 ranking.
Ball St - 162 - New Hampshire should have won this game and did vs a team that actually ranks below Sac St and is a 1-8 team in the lowly MAC. This almost doesn't count as a quality win.
Kansas St - 63 - UMass lost this one 21-17 @ K St in a good matchup that was only borderline a "winnable game".
Navy - 41 - Game is on 11/14 but do not look for Delaware to compete in this one as Navy should win handily.

Wyoming - 107 - Higgins had a bad day and WSU still hung aroung and had chances to win it. WSU really should have came away with the W in this one.
Colorado St - 97 - Again, WSU had many chances to steal this game and come away with the W.
Cal - 25 - EWU really didnt have a chance in this one and the 59-7 outcome no surprise.
Arizona - 14 - NAU probably competed better in this one than the number say they should have by only going down 34-17.
Mississippi - 38 - NAU hung around in the first half and was tied 14-14 late in the 2nd Quarter but again, this game should not have been close.
Michigan St - 51 - MSU got blown away in what is really the only bad showing for the BSC vs a potentially (though still unlikely) beatable opponent.

In summary, the CAA won 4 games against FBS opponents that the Sagarin Ratings said they should have been competitive in and lost only 1. The Navy game should be a blow out and isnt a "winnable" game for the Blue Hens. The BSC on the other hand played tougher FBS competition and should have been dismantled in 3 of their games but NAU kept 2 close until the 2nd half. EWU was throttled. The Michigan St game is borderline but going by the #55 team cutoff can be considered a non "winnable" game and therefore the results are not relevant. Weber on the other hand SHOULD have beaten both WY and CSU and did not. These two games were obviously the best chances for a BSC victory in OOC FBS play but were not capitalized on.

But also to be considered is the fact that Weber is only the 4th best team in the league according to the rankings which would then make them comparable to UNH in the CAA. Weber lost by 1 point to #97 CSU and 7 points to #107 WY while UNH beat #162 Ball St by 7. It is likely that WSU could have had a similar performance to that of UNH's against Ball St.

Overall, i think the two conferences actually compare well with one another and while there is no doubt that the top 3 in the CAA are of the same caliber as only the Griz in relation to Big Sky; EWU, NAU, WSU, and MSU all compare well to UNH, Delaware, and UMass. I cant wait till playoff time to find out! Too bad the Sky will only get one team other than the Griz in and the second team will likely be at a western team in round 1 (and likely at WA-Griz in round 2). Would really like to send them to the CAA and see the Sky bring home a W.



http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/fbt09.htm

[89Hen]

Wyoming - 107 - Higgins had a bad day and WSU still hung aroung and had chances to win it. WSU really should have came away with the W in this one.
Colorado St - 97 - Again, WSU had many chances to steal this game and come away with the W.
Cal - 25 - EWU really didnt have a chance in this one and the 59-7 outcome no surprise.
Arizona - 14 - NAU probably competed better in this one than the number say they should have by only going down 34-17.
Mississippi - 38 - NAU hung around in the first half and was tied 14-14 late in the 2nd Quarter but again, this game should not have been close.
Michigan St - 51 - MSU got blown away in what is really the only bad showing for the BSC vs a potentially (though still unlikely) beatable opponent.

Would really like to send them to the CAA and see the Sky bring home a W.
You use so many stats and facts, but then use opinion and conjecture to try to drive home the point. Good effort though. xthumbsupx

[kalm]

It's not the CAA is over-rated, it's that the BSC is dramatically under-rated by way too many posters. The CAA is a terrific conference, with some nice FBS wins, and a little better than the the BSC, but they should be - they have 3 more teams.

Get ready for Sagarin bashing.

[GrizNzonecrazy]

Yeah I tend to get a touch biased whenever i start talking about my BSC lol. Didnt really mean for it to come out that way. The numbers were a lot of work but i was pleasantly surprised with what i found. If you all on here are interested i broke down the MVC, SoCon, Southland, and OVC and could post those. And i promise i didnt bend or manipulate any of the numbers :)

[GrizNzonecrazy]

And i couldnt agree more kalm. I KNOW the CAA is the toughest conference in FCS but i'm trying to get some respect for what the numbers show to be the second best....the BSC. Though BSC are pretty much dead even on paper....

[henfan]

Overall, i think the two conferences actually compare well with one another...

No, they really don't. And it's not even close from the games I've watched in both conferences this year.

[Grizzaholic]

GrizNzonecrazy, great effort but most everyone here will only hear blah blah blah CAA is still better.

[GrizNzonecrazy]

Well the numbers rarely lie (though any sort of computer rankings in sports are debatable). But i've heard a lot of people on here quote over and over about the Sagarin Rankings and how great they are so i used them and was honest in my calculating. These were the results......some may not like what they are but they are free to check my work xreadx

[89Hen]

There's talk of paper... every single game if you match them up 1v1, 2v2... on paper gives the nod to the CAA.

[kalm]

No, they really don't. And it's not even close from the games I've watched in both conferences this year.

Scientific exhibit axcoffeex

[bostonspider]

Well one thing that is not taken into affect is that the losses that the FBS teams took from the CAA teams had a adverse affect to their sagarin ratings, and the wins the FBS teams had over the BSC team helped their ratings. If one could break out those games and see the Sagarin ratings for the teams in all their other games, it would be an interesting thing.

[GrizNzonecrazy]

There's talk of paper... every single game if you match them up 1v1, 2v2... on paper gives the nod to the CAA.

and there could be some truth to that.....but you do also have 12 teams to our 9. and i would be that our 1 vs your 1 is a good football game. we dont have a second team to match up well with the #2 but our 2 vs your 3, our 3 vs your 4, our 4 vs your 5 and down i will take the Big Sky

[GannonFan]

And come playoff time, the only BSC team that will make any noise, assuming this is a year where they aren't just overinflated by the BSC and lose early, will be Montana, just like it's been every year for what seems to be forever. We haven't seen a non-Montana team in the semis since EWU was there in 1997. In the same timeframe, there have been 6 different CAA teams that have made the semis (a CAA team has reached the semis 12 times since 1997) and 4 of those teams have made it more than once (UD 4 times, UMass 2 times, JMU 2 times, Richmond 2 times). In that same timeframe, Montana's made the semis 5 times, and no other Big Sky team, not a one, has made it.

The ghosts of Boise St, Idaho, and Nevada live on in the Big Sky. xthumbsupx

[McNeese75]

Well the numbers rarely lie (though any sort of computer rankings in sports are debatable). But i've heard a lot of people on here quote over and over about the Sagarin Rankings and how great they are so i used them and was honest in my calculating. These were the results......some may not like what they are but they are free to check my work xreadx

xeekx What fairytale do you live in xlolx xpeacex

[tribe_pride]

I think the average that you forgot to compute which uses both SOS and performance is overall rankings of the teams:

Average Sagarin CAA ranking of the top 6: 82
Average Sagarin BSC ranking of the top 5: 105.4
Average Sagarin CAA ranking: 124.2
Average Sagarin BSC ranking: 137.7

By the way, that takes nothing away from your analysis of what you did on the SOS which was good. If you are trying to compare how the teams in 2 conferences performed though, you need to find out how they did against those teams and that is where the rankings come in to play.

[89Hen]

and there could be some truth to that.....but you do also have 12 teams to our 9. and i would be that our 1 vs your 1 is a good football game. we dont have a second team to match up well with the #2 but our 2 vs your 3, our 3 vs your 4, our 4 vs your 5 and down i will take the Big Sky
Montana vs anyone is a good game. But the fact that you have to start qulifying the games by bumping out the #2 CAA team makes for a weak arguement when discussing strength of the conference. You could take out the #1, #2 and #3 CAA teams with Montana and paper still gives the nod to the CAA in every pairing until you get down to URI.

Montana (4) vs Villanova (1), Richmond (2) or W&M (4)

EWU (13) vs UNH (7)
Weber (16) vs Delaware (14)
NAU (19) vs JMU (18)
MSU (23) vs UMass (22)
SacSt (46) vs Maine (34)
UNC (59) vs Hofstra (36)

[ncbears]

Ok so in my boredom and after spending way too long browsing the boards and reading anti BSC/anti Griz posts repeatedly, i decided to do some studying. This is what resulted:


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/fbt09.htm

If you're that bored, why don't you read a book?

[GrizNzonecrazy]

Well one thing that is not taken into affect is that the losses that the FBS teams took from the CAA teams had a adverse affect to their sagarin ratings, and the wins the FBS teams had over the BSC team helped their ratings. If one could break out those games and see the Sagarin ratings for the teams in all their other games, it would be an interesting thing.



I think the average that you forgot to compute which uses both SOS and performance is overall rankings of the teams:

Average Sagarin CAA ranking of the top 6: 82
Average Sagarin BSC ranking of the top 5: 105.4
Average Sagarin CAA ranking: 124.2
Average Sagarin BSC ranking: 137.7

Dont you think that given spider's logic, if the BSC Top 5 team's opponents didnt average 33 points higher (158.22 CAA to 125.22 for BSC) in OOC play that the sky would have picked up a couple more W's and might be underrated......

[GrizNzonecrazy]

Also NAU & Weber both played 2 FBS games......take one of those out and replace it with FCS and i'm sure both would be well under 100....

[UNH Fanboi]

Dont you think that given spider's logic, if the BSC Top 5 team's opponents didnt average 33 points higher (158.22 CAA to 125.22 for BSC) in OOC play that the sky would have picked up a couple more W's and might be underrated......

The computer rankings take that into account. When a team plays a much stronger opponent and loses, their raw score only drops a little bit. Conversely, if a strong team plays a weak team and wins, their raw score only rises by a little bit.

As someone who plays chess, I am very familiar with this principle. You can only inflate your rating so much against weaker opponents because if you win, your rating only goes up very slightly. If you make a dumb mistake and lose, which is inevitable, your rating drops precipitously.

If playing a weak schedule was the key to a high computer ranking, wouldn't Butler be up there right now?

[smcwildcat]

very cool info but say what you will any win over an fbs is considered quality come selection sunday

[tribe_pride]

Dont you think that given spider's logic, if the BSC Top 5 team's opponents didnt average 33 points higher (158.22 CAA to 125.22 for BSC) in OOC play that the sky would have picked up a couple more W's and might be underrated......

Nope. Not sure if I disagree with Spider or not (would need to think about what exactly he is saying).

Sagarin uses each team's ranking to determine its opponent's strength of schedule. Based on the SoS and the performance in those matchups (with other factors probably too), Sagarin determines a team's point total and therefore ranking. If you are not going to trust the ranking, you can't trust the SoS either which would make your SoS analysis moot.

Also note that I edited the previous post to compliment the SoS analysis. It just doesn't analyze the performance aspect which shows how strong each conference really is.

[tribe_pride]

Also NAU & Weber both played 2 FBS games......take one of those out and replace it with FCS and i'm sure both would be well under 100....

Not necessarily because the fact that NAU and Weber played FBS teams with stronger rankings helped their own rankings, the loss dropped it some. If they played a weaker team they would be give less credit. Sagarin takes all of that into account which is why a 3-6 Washington team is ranked 47.

[GrizNzonecrazy]

Not necessarily because the fact that NAU and Weber played FBS teams with stronger rankings helped their own rankings, the loss dropped it some. If they played a weaker team they would be give less credit. Sagarin takes all of that into account which is why a 3-6 Washington team is ranked 47.

I agree in principle but you cant tell me that if they had played a middle of the road MVC or someone like Central Ark instead of the second FBS and got the win they wouldnt be a good 10+ spots higher....

[tribe_pride]

I agree in principle but you cant tell me that if they had played a middle of the road MVC or someone like Central Ark instead of the second FBS and got the win they wouldnt be a good 10+ spots higher....

If you are going to say that, then you are saying that you do not trust Sagarin to make the rankings or SoS accurate.

That would also mean that your previous analysis is all for naught since you did not use good information. You have to trust Sagarin as a whole or not at all if you want people to trust your analysis. You can't only trust for SoS and not for rankings since they are all intermingled.

The best example (I know its extreme but just to show you) of beating weak teams is not going to help your ranking is to look at ODU. They are 8-2 but are only ranked 217 because of their 242 SoS.

[89Hen]

I agree in principle but you cant tell me that if they had played a middle of the road MVC or someone like Central Ark instead of the second FBS and got the win they wouldnt be a good 10+ spots higher....
You're assuming they'd win. xpeacex

[soccerguy315]

Villanova ---------(8-1) - 46
Richmond --------(8-1) - 57
William & Mary --(8-1) - 60
UNH ---------------(8-1) - 98

UM ----(9-0) - 80
EWU --(6-3) - 103
NAU ---(5-4) - 109


CAA top third: 65.25
BSC top third: 97.33

guess you proved that Montana doesn't have to play nearly the tough games that the CAA teams do. I assume that's what you were going for.

[GrizNzonecrazy]

Its funny that i'm the one being told to accept the Sagarin for what it is and to not interject the ifs, ands, and buts as they are already factored in. I though thats what i did in the original thread post......Just posted the numbers and no one seemed to like them....i didnt alter anything and all were correct averages

[Grizzaholic]

CAA top third: 65.25
BSC top third: 97.33

guess you proved that Montana doesn't have to play nearly the tough games that the CAA teams do. I assume that's what you were going for.

Yeah...it would be awesome not to play the top 3 in the CAA every other year...xcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxco ffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoff eexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffee xxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexx coffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxco ffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoff eexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffee xxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexx coffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxco ffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoff eexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffee xxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexx coffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxco ffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoff eexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeex

Yup GO CAA!!!!!!!!!!xcoffeex

[tribe_pride]

Its funny that i'm the one being told to accept the Sagarin for what it is and to not interject the ifs, ands, and buts as they are already factored in. I though thats what i did in the original thread post......Just posted the numbers and no one seemed to like them....i didnt alter anything and all were correct averages

To be fair, I complemented you on your analysis of the OOC SoS but said that your analysis was not sufficient to determine how the teams in each conference performed this season.

The rankings average that I provided were the additional numbers that combine not only the SoS but the performance of the teams as well. I actually did not notice that you provided the over conference Sagarin rankings (not top 6 and 5 though). You skipped over those numbers though when you did your analysis of the numbers and those are the most important numbers when determining how well the teams have played because they incorporate the SoS and the performance during the games.

[Grizzaholic]

Its funny that i'm the one being told to accept the Sagarin for what it is and to not interject the ifs, ands, and buts as they are already factored in. I though thats what i did in the original thread post......Just posted the numbers and no one seemed to like them....i didnt alter anything and all were correct averages

Don't worry about it. Lots of Big Sky haters here. You could post facts till your eyes and fingers bleed but they will not hear of it.


To them

CAA
SO-CON
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DII
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.
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Patriot
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NAIA
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.
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.
.
Big Sky


And mods, this is not smack. It is fact. I can back it all up.

[tribe_pride]

Yeah...it would be awesome not to play the top 3 in the CAA every other year...xcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxco ffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoff eexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffee xxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexx coffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxco ffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoff eexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffee xxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexx coffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxco ffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoff eexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffee xxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexx coffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxco ffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoff eexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeex

Yup GO CAA!!!!!!!!!!xcoffeex

I guess the fact that W&M is playing 3 of the top 4 teams in the conference (the 4th being W&M) which means playing 3 of the top 8 teams in the country means nothing?

[tribe_pride]

Don't worry about it. Lots of Big Sky haters here. You could post facts till your eyes and fingers bleed but they will not hear of it.


To them

CAA
SO-CON
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
DII
.
.
.
.
Patriot
.
.
.
.
.
NAIA
.
.
.
.
.
Big Sky


And mods, this is not smack. It is fact. I can back it all up.

The original poster made this a CAA vs Big Sky thing. If he had used other conferences as well for comparison, according to Sagarin which he used, only the Great West and CAA would be higher.

[UNH Fanboi]

Its funny that i'm the one being told to accept the Sagarin for what it is and to not interject the ifs, ands, and buts as they are already factored in. I though thats what i did in the original thread post......Just posted the numbers and no one seemed to like them....i didnt alter anything and all were correct averages

Nobody had a problem with your numbers. The problem is that in your original post you started editorializing the numbers by matching up the 2nd BSC team against the 4th CAA team, writing-off the CAAs FBS wins as expected while making excuses for the BSC FBS losses that they should have won, etc.

If you had kept your original post a little more objective and just pointed out that the BSC is underrated by all the haters, then that would have been fine. But it seemed to me like you were going a little further and trying to show that the BSC is equal to the CAA, which is just not the case.

[19Duke97]

I think it really shows how good the CAA is when such an analysis is done. A few years back it was the Southern conference who did the same basic comparisons. I'd put my next paycheck on taking the top 9 from the CAA having a winning record against the BSC or Southern today, and I would not be shocked to see the conference do as well as 7-2. Call me a homer, but i really do think the CAA is that good.

One final note, I think a comparison between the Southern and BSC would be even better - much closer in quality of teams, I'd pay to watch those games.

[soccerguy315]

Yeah...it would be awesome not to play the top 3 in the CAA every other year...xcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxco ffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoff eexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffee xxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexx coffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxco ffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoff eexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffee xxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexx coffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxco ffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoff eexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffee xxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexx coffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxco ffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoff eexxcoffeexxcoffeexxcoffeex

Yup GO CAA!!!!!!!!!!xcoffeex

W&M is playing #46, #57, #98 and #66 UVA (FBS)

stop with the coffee faces and tell me which teams on Montana's schedule are as hard as those 4 teams that W&M is playing

[LawDutch]

The top three teams in the CAA are unbelievably good this year. UNH is a clear playoff team, but a little bit more inconsistent than the top 3. The rest of the conference is kind of down, but UMass, UD, Hofstra, Maine, JMU would all be competitive in any conference.

All these major scholarship conferences are pretty good, CAA happens to objectively be the best this year. I really don't know what the problem is, I don't think anybody would be surprised if Montana, SIU, or Appy won this year. CAA is the only conference with three legit title contenders and four playoff teams though.

[89Hen]

And mods, this is not smack. It is fact. I can back it all up.
xlolx Actually none of it is fact and you can't back any of it up. xlolx

[tribe_pride]

The top three teams in the CAA are unbelievably good this year. UNH is a clear playoff team, but a little bit more inconsistent than the top 3. The rest of the conference is kind of down, but UMass, UD, Hofstra, Maine, JMU would all be competitive in any conference.

All these major scholarship conferences are pretty good, CAA happens to objectively be the best this year. I really don't know what the problem is, I don't think anybody would be surprised if Montana, SIU, or Appy won this year. CAA is the only conference with three legit title contenders and four playoff teams though.

Agreed and you can add Elon to that list as well. Everyone in the CAA agrees that there are legitimate championship contenders in and out of the CAA (I would add UNH to the list of contenders). The CAA just has more contenders than the other conferences. But nobody will be surprised to see a CAA team not win the championship.

I think any of the top 8 teams have a good chance to win it all this year. Absent a weird pairing in the 1st round (unfortunately there will probably be at least 2 top 8 teams matched up against each other), starting with the 2nd round, all games should be really competitive.

[bluehenbillk]

Didn't read through the whole thread, but if you want to compare the two leagues, the Big Sky, if it's fair or not has been a one-trick pony for more than a decade, meaning it's all about just Montana. When the Big Sky can have other schools wins multiple playoff games in the same year it'd be a worthwhile comparison. When's the last time a school that is still in the BSC not named Montana played in a semi?

[GannonFan]

And come playoff time, the only BSC team that will make any noise, assuming this is a year where they aren't just overinflated by the BSC and lose early, will be Montana, just like it's been every year for what seems to be forever. We haven't seen a non-Montana team in the semis since EWU was there in 1997. In the same timeframe, there have been 6 different CAA teams that have made the semis (a CAA team has reached the semis 12 times since 1997) and 4 of those teams have made it more than once (UD 4 times, UMass 2 times, JMU 2 times, Richmond 2 times). In that same timeframe, Montana's made the semis 5 times, and no other Big Sky team, not a one, has made it.

The ghosts of Boise St, Idaho, and Nevada live on in the Big Sky. xthumbsupx


Didn't read through the whole thread, but if you want to compare the two leagues, the Big Sky, if it's fair or not has been a one-trick pony for more than a decade, meaning it's all about just Montana. When the Big Sky can have other schools wins multiple playoff games in the same year it'd be a worthwhile comparison. When's the last time a school that is still in the BSC not named Montana played in a semi?


Already answered earlier!! xthumbsupx

[mlbowl]

I don't know why we're still debating this...the Big Sky sucks and the CAA rules.It's science!

[JMUNJ08]

I don't know why we're still debating this...the Big Sky sucks and the CAA rules.It's science!

Yeah not the math SCIENCExbangx

[tribe_pride]

I don't know why we're still debating this...the Big Sky sucks and the CAA rules.It's science!

It's comments like this that make constructive conversations go bad.

[Tod]

The CAA and Big Sky compare really well this year. It's just that the CAA has four Montanas.

Remove Montana and the top four from the CAA and do a side by side comparison and we match up really well!

:)

[mlbowl]

It's comments like this that make constructive conversations go bad.

Yeah...it was such an enlightening joy to read through thisxrolleyesx

[JMUNJ08]

The CAA and Big Sky compare really well this year. It's just that the CAA has four Montanas.

Remove Montana and the top four from the CAA and do a side by side comparison and we match up really well!

:)

I would agree with that statement. But then doesn't that show that the CAA is superior having four elite teams to your one barring all else equal?

[100%GRIZ]

I don't know why we're still debating this...the Big Sky sucks and the CAA rules.It's science!

You are 100% correct!!! That is why the GRIZ made it to the National Championship game in 2008!!! Case closed!!! Please!!! Kind of on the same line as Boise State in the WAC!!!

[soccerguy315]

Yeah...it was such an enlightening joy to read through thisxrolleyesx

I'm still waiting for a response on my post on the previous page. Feel free to take a shot at it.

Looks like one Griz fan in the thread knows what is up.

People are not arguing that Montana is not a good team. They are saying that a top 4 team should be expected to go 11-0 with Montana's schedule. If Montana had to play W&M's schedule, they might be 9-2 or 10-1. They would still be a very good team, just not undefeated. And being undefeated, by itself, doesn't make a team better than another team that is 9-2 or 10-1.

There are 4 really good teams in the CAA this year. There are not 4 really good teams in the Big Sky.

[100%GRIZ]

I'm still waiting for a response on my post on the previous page. Feel free to take a shot at it.

Looks like one Griz fan in the thread knows what is up.

People are not arguing that Montana is not a good team. They are saying that a top 4 team should be expected to go 11-0 with Montana's schedule. If Montana had to play W&M's schedule, they might be 9-2 or 10-1. They would still be a very good team, just not undefeated. And being undefeated, by itself, doesn't make a team better than another team that is 9-2 or 10-1.

There are 4 really good teams in the CAA this year. There are not 4 really good teams in the Big Sky.

Montana - Weber - Eastern Washington - Montana State (NAU)!!!! Well the Playoffs will take care of it all !!! Correct?

Just because you can't look past the Mississippi River!!!!

[tribe_pride]

Montana - Weber - Eastern Washington - Montana State (NAU)!!!! Well the Playoffs will take care of it all !!! Correct?

Just because you can't look past the Mississippi River!!!!

If you are going to use Weber, EWU, MSU and NAU then the CAA will add 3 more teams as well. The difference being that in the eyes of the CAA, those teams are good but not really good.

[soccerguy315]

Montana - Weber - Eastern Washington - Montana State (NAU)!!!! Well the Playoffs will take care of it all !!! Correct?

Just because you can't look past the Mississippi River!!!!

How is [BSC] #80, #103, #109, and #122 equal to [CAA] #46, #57, #60, and #98?

You think Weber, EWU, and Montana St are as good as Richmond, UNH, and W&M? Really?

And I'm sure the playoffs will take care of it. Actually, at least half of the BSC teams you listed will be taken care of before the playoffs start.

Montana (BSC #1) against the CAA #1 would be a good game. If you matched up the other teams that you mentioned, the CAA would be favored in each game.

[Tod]

I would agree with that statement. But then doesn't that show that the CAA is superior having four elite teams to your one barring all else equal?

Of course.

[100%GRIZ]

How is [BSC] #80, #103, #109, and #122 equal to [CAA] #46, #57, #60, and #98?

You think Weber, EWU, and Montana St are as good as Richmond, UNH, and W&M? Really?

And I'm sure the playoffs will take care of it. Actually, at least half of the BSC teams you listed will be taken care of before the playoffs start.

Montana (BSC #1) against the CAA #1 would be a good game. If you matched up the other teams that you mentioned, the CAA would be favored in each game.

Unfortunately we will never know - statistics are not the same as actual games played!!! If another Big Sky team or teams makes the playoffs I wouldn't bet against an upset!!! But Montana (BSC#1) against (CAA #1) would & could be a Great Game!!! We will see!!!

[uofmman1122]

This thread is rather silly.

[soccerguy315]

Unfortunately we will never know - statistics are not the same as actual games played!!! If another Big Sky team or teams makes the playoffs I wouldn't bet against an upset!!! But Montana (BSC#1) against (CAA #1) would & could be a Great Game!!! We will see!!!

oh I agree. I was just using the statistics that the OP used.

I am happy we have the playoffs... and I surely don't want to play @Montana xpeacex

[mlbowl]

This thread is rather silly.


yesxnodx

[tribe_pride]

This thread is rather silly.


yesxnodx

Well you only have one of your own to blame and now he has started this same fight with the MVC.

[89Hen]

Montana - Weber - Eastern Washington - Montana State (NAU)!!!! Well the Playoffs will take care of it all !!! Correct?

Just because you can't look past the Mississippi River!!!!
xlolx Watch out for the black helicopters.

[89Hen]

Montana (BSC #1) against the CAA #1 would be a good game. If you matched up the other teams that you mentioned, the CAA would be favored in each game.
Even further...

You could take out the #1, #2 and #3 CAA teams with Montana and paper still gives the nod to the CAA in every pairing until you get down to URI.

Montana (4) vs Villanova (1), Richmond (2) or W&M (4)

EWU (13) vs UNH (7)
Weber (16) vs Delaware (14)
NAU (19) vs JMU (18)
MSU (23) vs UMass (22)
SacSt (46) vs Maine (34)
UNC (59) vs Hofstra (36)

[andy7171]

But Montana (BSC#1) against (CAA #1) would & could be a Great Game!!!
Yes it is, and usually the NC or Final Four game too.

[UncleSam]

Until somebody, ANYBODY other than Montana, makes a serious run in the playoffs, the Big Sky conference will continued to be viewed as a league ruled by the Griz and populated by the Munchkins.

[89Hen]

Until somebody, ANYBODY other than Montana, makes a serious run in the playoffs, the Big Sky conference will continued to be viewed as a league ruled by the Griz and populated by the Munchkins.
12 straight titles by the Griz has a lot to do with it too. NO other conference comes close to that mark.

[blukeys]

Until somebody, ANYBODY other than Montana, makes a serious run in the playoffs, the Big Sky conference will continued to be viewed as a league ruled by the Griz and populated by the Munchkins.

Agreed, I got to see the great no. 2 team from the Big Sky, Portland State in 2000. They arrived with tons of fanfare and were going to show us East Coast Folks just how tough the Big Sky was. Well as one fan said to me "They look like the Smurfs". They proceeded to play like the Smurfettes. I keep hearing all the facts and figures to convince me how good the Big Sky is. I have a hard time not believing my lying eyes. (Groucho Marx reference not Eagles.)

[Silenoz]

Agreed, I got to see the great no. 2 team from the Big Sky, Portland State in 2000. They arrived with tons of fanfare and were going to show us East Coast Folks just how tough the Big Sky was. Well as one fan said to me "They look like the Smurfs". They proceeded to play like the Smurfettes. I keep hearing all the facts and figures to convince me how good the Big Sky is. I have a hard time not believing my lying eyes. (Groucho Marx reference not Eagles.)

That's not a very fair way to look at it. You beat an at-large 8-3 big at home, and base the conference on that a decade later? That's like saying the Big Sky won't respect the MVC because we lit up Northern Iowa 38-0, or the CAA because we stomped New Hampshire 47-17 (47-3 in the 4th)

[wideright82]

That's not a very fair way to look at it. You beat an at-large 8-3 big at home, and base the conference on that a decade later? That's like saying the Big Sky won't respect the MVC because we lit up Northern Iowa 38-0, or the CAA because we stomped New Hampshire 47-17 (47-3 in the 4th)


Its a Delaware thing, don't let it get to you. xlolxxlolxxsmiley_wix

[UncleSam]

Its a Delaware thing, don't let it get to you. xlolxxlolxxsmiley_wix

Will this be the playoff year when Nova finally peforms up to their talent level???

[GannonFan]

That's not a very fair way to look at it. You beat an at-large 8-3 big at home, and base the conference on that a decade later? That's like saying the Big Sky won't respect the MVC because we lit up Northern Iowa 38-0, or the CAA because we stomped New Hampshire 47-17 (47-3 in the 4th)

In his defense, that's just one of many examples.

Again, it's been since 1997 that a team other than Montana has made the semifinals in the playoffs. And it wouldn't appear likely that that streak will end this year. Most of the time, Montana's pretty good. And most of the team, the rest of the Big Sky ain't. xpeacex

[Silenoz]

Its a Delaware thing, don't let it get to you. xlolxxlolxxsmiley_wix

Oh, I have noticed xlolx

[UncleSam]

Oh, I have noticed xlolx


49-48...... :D

[wideright82]

Will this be the playoff year when Nova finally peforms up to their talent level???


I wouldn't say that we haven't in the past. A couple screw jobs here and there and a couple juggernauts have kept us out of it. I think this is our best chance we have had in a while though and I hope we can capitalize on it. Mistake free football has been how we are winning so lets hope we don't pull a JMU if we run into the Griz.xthumbsupx

[Silenoz]

49-48...... :D

Not gonna lie, I was a little kid and I DID cry

[UncleSam]

Not gonna lie, I was a little kid and I DID cry

Hey, you need a tough one like that once in awhile to better appreciate all those playoff wins. ;)

[Native]

Until somebody, ANYBODY other than Montana, makes a serious run in the playoffs, the Big Sky conference will continued to be viewed as a league ruled by the Griz and populated by the Munchkins.

49-35 over #3 Cal Poly is not munchin-esque.

[jmufan999]

you know what's crazy.... you're "picking" on the CAA, but the BSC isn't even the 2nd best conference!

pick your battle with the right conference: overtake the SoCon then we'll talk. the Sagarins meant nothing last year when JMU was up and mean nothing this year when we're down. 4 different teams from a conference winning the national title in a 10 (or is it 11?) year span is a stat you can't argue. conference strength = conference depth

[GannonFan]

49-35 over #3 Cal Poly is not munchin-esque.

and yet, still no follow up victory. There's a decent handful of first round wins by teams other than Montana (well, a few), but still, no one's made a real run in the playoffs, as evidenced from the lack of a non-Montana team in the semis since 1997. Montana's pulling their weight most of the time, where's everyone else??

[93henfan]

and yet, still no follow up victory. There's a decent handful of first round wins by teams other than Montana (well, a few), but still, no one's made a real run in the playoffs, as evidenced from the lack of a non-Montana team in the semis since 1997. Montana's pulling their weight most of the time, where's everyone else??

I must have it backwards. I always thought it was supposed to be tougher for teams near sea level to go play at elevation? xsmiley_wix

[WestCoastAggie]

This thread is rather silly.
I agree...

[89Hen]

Started by a Big Sky fan and finished with CAA posters. Just like the playoffs. :D

[wideright82]

Started by a Big Sky fan and finished with CAA posters. Just like the playoffs. :D



WHAMMMMMMMMMY!!!!!!

[Saluki09]

Started by a Big Sky fan and finished with CAA posters. Just like the playoffs. :D

xoutofrepx

[mlbowl]

Started by a Big Sky fan and finished with CAA posters. Just like the playoffs. :D


Big Sky 5 I-AA/FCS National Championships
CAA 4 I-AA/FCS National Championships

WHAMMMMMMMMMMY!

[Grrrrriz]

Big Sky 5 I-AA/FCS National Championships
CAA 4 I-AA/FCS National Championships

WHAMMMMMMMMMMY!

Game....set....match.

[Saluki09]

Game....set....match.

Ummm...wouldn't that mean the SoCon is the most dominant then? Don't they have like 10?

[Grrrrriz]

Ummm...wouldn't that mean the SoCon is the most dominant then? Don't they have like 10?

If we were talking about the SoCon your argument would apply, but we aren't. (I really like the SoCon, and yeah, historically they have been real dominant. Between Georgia Southern and App State they could fill an auditorium with their NC's)

[mlbowl]

Ummm...wouldn't that mean the SoCon is the most dominant then? Don't they have like 10?


Ummm...it's a Big Sky/CAA thing;)

[Silenoz]

Big Sky 5 I-AA/FCS National Championships
CAA 4 I-AA/FCS National Championships

WHAMMMMMMMMMMY!

If only we didn't self destruct against JMU and not show up against Richmond! Just think of the numbers!







xbawlingxxbawlingxxbawlingx

[blukeys]

That's not a very fair way to look at it. You beat an at-large 8-3 big at home, and base the conference on that a decade later? That's like saying the Big Sky won't respect the MVC because we lit up Northern Iowa 38-0, or the CAA because we stomped New Hampshire 47-17 (47-3 in the 4th)

Sorry, send us another team and I will change my view based on their performance. None of us have never said that Montana is not good. We have simply said that the Big Fluffy Sky conference is not deep. Until I actually see a decent team other than Montana I wil consider the Big Sky a one team conference.

The CAA's considerable depth does not need to be documented here. Your cherry picking of one time scores proves nothing. The continued ongoing failure of non-Montana BSC teams is a documented fact. What I saw with my own eyes simply confirmed the obvious.

[Silenoz]

Sorry, send us another team and I will change my view based on their performance. None of us have never said that Montana is not good. We have simply said that the Big Fluffy Sky conference is not deep. Until I actually see a decent team other than Montana I wil consider the Big Sky a one team conference.

The CAA's considerable depth does not need to be documented here. Your cherry picking of one time scores proves nothing. The continued ongoing failure of non-Montana BSC teams is a documented fact. What I saw with my own eyes simply confirmed the obvious.
Wha, I used cherry-picking as an example of why you can't cherry pick!


Why am I here, this thread is silly and I don't care about the rest of the Big Sky anyways

[SeattleGriz]

As long as everyone is pulling crap out their rears to support their individual arguments, why don't we address that it really only takes two games for the CAA to get to the semis versus three for the Big Sky...and yes, I am pulling this one out of you know where! :)

Over the last five years, the CAA has started with:

2004
Hampton
G Southern (UNH)
Lafayette
Lehigh

2005
Colgate
Hampton

2006
Youngstown (loss)
Hampton
Lafayette

2007
Delaware St
N Iowa (loss - UNH)
Fordham
E Kentucky
App State (loss)

2008
Wofford
Colgate
E Kentucky
N Iowa (loss)
SIU (UNH)

It seems to me that the CAA just can't cut the mustard if they have to start off with anyone other than a Patriot, MEAC or OVC team.

By the way, the only team from the CAA who has been dealt a tough first round matchup is UNH and they are the only CAA team to beat an opponent outside the usual patsies.

[93henfan]

Ummm...wouldn't that mean the SoCon is the most dominant then? Don't they have like 10?

The Ivy League had at least a share of the championship 57 times. xpeacex

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Football_Championship

[93henfan]

Ummm...wouldn't that mean the SoCon is the most dominant then? Don't they have like 10?

The Ivy League had at least a share of the championship 57 times (quick skim - I may be off a year or two). :p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Football_Championship

[93henfan]

By the way, the only team from the CAA who has been dealt a tough first round matchup is UNH and they are the only CAA team to beat an opponent outside the usual patsies.

Yeah, Delaware had a cakewalk in 2003 with SIU, UNI and Wofford on the road to Chatty. xrolleyesx

Funny how you only went back to 2004 while you were pulling things from your arse.

[blukeys]

Why am I here, this thread is silly and I don't care about the rest of the Big Sky anyways

You coudn't read the title of this thread??? It is about the whole Big Sky. If you don't care then go home and knit yourself a sweater for the winter.

[blukeys]

Yeah, Delaware had a cakewalk in 2003 with SIU, UNI and Wofford on the road to Chatty. xrolleyesx

Funny how you only went back to 2004 while you were pulling things from your arse.

Lighten up 93 Griz fans can only count on one hand. Anything above 5 and they have to scratch their heads and talk about fishing.

[Uncle Buck]

It seems to me that the CAA just can't cut the mustard if they have to start off with anyone other than a Patriot, MEAC or OVC team.

By the way, the only team from the CAA who has been dealt a tough first round matchup is UNH and they are the only CAA team to beat an opponent outside the usual patsies.

I hate these pissing matches, but i'll throw this out there. Maybe the easy first round games is a reward for playing the most challenging league schedule out there xpeacex

[mlbowl]

Maybe the easy first round games is a reward for playing the most challenging league schedule out there xpeacex

I'm sure that's it...xthumbsupx

[SeattleGriz]

Yeah, Delaware had a cakewalk in 2003 with SIU, UNI and Wofford on the road to Chatty. xrolleyesx

Funny how you only went back to 2004 while you were pulling things from your arse.

Actually, figured 5 years of data would be sufficient, as anything longer than that is a completely new team. Long posts put people to sleep.

[UNH Fanboi]

I'm sure everyone in the CAA would like to get rid of regionalization and just seed the entire bracket, so don't blame the CAA teams for their geographic location.

[mlbowl]

I'm sure everyone in the CAA would like to get rid of regionalization and just seed the entire bracket, so don't blame the CAA teams for their geographic location.

Don't get me wrong...not blamingxpeacex

[SeattleGriz]

I hate these pissing matches, but i'll throw this out there. Maybe the easy first round games is a reward for playing the most challenging league schedule out there xpeacex

It's not a pissing match to me Uncle Buck, that is why I prefaced my comments with pulling that data out of my rear - just teasing. We all know it is due to regionalization.

But I do agree with your sentiment. It is sad to see people rip on a poster that simply crunched numbers to show that the Big Sky's OOC results weren't too far off from those of the CAA. What else do we have to compare?

It's like when someone posts their playoff brackets three weeks into the season and everyone complains. If you don't like it, do your own work!

[SeattleGriz]

I'm sure everyone in the CAA would like to get rid of regionalization and just seed the entire bracket, so don't blame the CAA teams for their geographic location.


Missed your post, but I did address the regionalization thing in a separate post. By the way, I gave UNH a plug in my original post.

[SeattleGriz]

Lighten up 93 Griz fans can only count on one hand. Anything above 5 and they have to scratch their heads and talk about fishing.

If it wasn't clear, my comments have been tongue in cheek. Suppose I should have over done it with a ton of sissy smileys.

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

Make you feel better?

[Silenoz]

You coudn't read the title of this thread??? It is about the whole Big Sky. If you don't care then go home and knit yourself a sweater for the winter.
Well I don't know what you do in your free time, but I think I'll have to pass xlolx

[Squealofthepig]

Jeez, what a stupid thread.

CAA folks: The OP was posting a fairly reasonable (if somewhat emotionally charged) post that the big sky isnt' nearly as sucky as most CAA posters would suspect. Think he made his point.

Big Sky folks: The BSC isn't the top conference. I mean, really. The CAA has a much better top-to-bottom quality than the BSC. That isn't a bad thing, or something to be ashamed of. Rather, I'd say just acknowledge that the CAA is a much stronger conference top-to-bottom.

Ultimately, it comes down to this: The Griz are - generally speaking - a big fish in a small pond. And the CAA is a lot of great larger fish in a medium sized pond. Sometimes the BSC have a great second place - and a third place team - but they act as a spoiler and not as a championship team. The CAA has a MUCH stronger record of strong second, third, fourth and fifth place teams. It is going to take a team other than Montana capturing at least a championship appearance before this perception fades. No one is surprised if a second, third or even FOURTH placed CAA team makes it to Chatty. But most FCS fans would be surprised to see a BCS team do the same. And until we see a deep run like that, the BSC will be considered a "fluffy" conference. I don't view that as right, but I can understand the perception.

[HensRock]

Biggest difference:

In the CAA, we all take turns being "Montana".
xlolx

[catbob]

Biggest difference:

In the CAA, we all take turns being "Montana".
xlolx

So you are saying no one has consistency? xthumbsupx

[GrizFanStuckInUtah]

Biggest difference:

In the CAA, we all take turns being "Montana".
xlolx

AS long as you have an Idol, we have done our job xsmiley_wix:D

[UNHFootballAlum]

Jeez, what a stupid thread.

CAA folks: The OP was posting a fairly reasonable (if somewhat emotionally charged) post that the big sky isnt' nearly as sucky as most CAA posters would suspect. Think he made his point.

Big Sky folks: The BSC isn't the top conference. I mean, really. The CAA has a much better top-to-bottom quality than the BSC. That isn't a bad thing, or something to be ashamed of. Rather, I'd say just acknowledge that the CAA is a much stronger conference top-to-bottom.

Ultimately, it comes down to this: The Griz are - generally speaking - a big fish in a small pond. And the CAA is a lot of great larger fish in a medium sized pond. Sometimes the BSC have a great second place - and a third place team - but they act as a spoiler and not as a championship team. The CAA has a MUCH stronger record of strong second, third, fourth and fifth place teams. It is going to take a team other than Montana capturing at least a championship appearance before this perception fades. No one is surprised if a second, third or even FOURTH placed CAA team makes it to Chatty. But most FCS fans would be surprised to see a BCS team do the same. And until we see a deep run like that, the BSC will be considered a "fluffy" conference. I don't view that as right, but I can understand the perception.

i agree with all that you have said and this should be the end of the discussion from both conference posters.

[pitpen]

So you are saying no one has consistency? xthumbsupx

We're saying eight teams don't suck consistently.

[Green26]

UNH, I can't agree with much of what you say. I don't agree with this assertion of yours:

"The CAA has a much better top-to-bottom quality than the BSC." The CAA is better, but not much better.

Because the CAA has so many teams, the CAA gets credit for lots of very good teams, but there isn't enough attention given to the number of bad teams. Because the CAA teams don't play each other this year, it is not proper to give the conference credit for all of the good teams.

The CAA South is very strong this year. The CAA North is not nearly as strong. In fact, the Big Sky is stronger than the CAA North. The CAA North has only 2 (of the 6) teams with a winning record. The top team in the CAA North, UNH, has played only two good teams, losing to one of them. (I don't count Ball St., as I don't think they are very good.) UNH plays only one more good team (W&M). The second best team, UMass, plays only four good teams this year, has lost to three of them (Del., Richmond and Kansas St.), and has lost to a not so good team (Maine).

Most of the best Big Sky teams, including Montana, have a much stronger schedules than UNH. Villanouva and Richmond have strong schedules, as do EWU, NAU and Weber, but Montana's schedule has been as strong as W&M's to date.

Anyone who says the Big Sky is a "fluffy" conference shows that they are either biased or don't understand the game of football, in my view. The Big Sky has consistently been a top 3 conference.

[UNHFootballAlum]

UNH, I can't agree with much of what you say. I don't agree with this assertion of yours:

"The CAA has a much better top-to-bottom quality than the BSC." The CAA is better, but not much better.

Because the CAA has so many teams, the CAA gets credit for lots of very good teams, but there isn't enough attention given to the number of bad teams. Because the CAA teams don't play each other this year, it is not proper to give the conference credit for all of the good teams.

The CAA South is very strong this year. The CAA North is not nearly as strong. In fact, the Big Sky is stronger than the CAA North. The CAA North has only 2 (of the 6) teams with a winning record. The top team in the CAA North, UNH, has played only two good teams, losing to one of them. (I don't count Ball St., as I don't think they are very good.) UNH plays only one more good team (W&M). The second best team, UMass, plays only four good teams this year, has lost to three of them (Del., Richmond and Kansas St.), and has lost to a not so good team (Maine).

Most of the best Big Sky teams, including Montana, have a much stronger schedules than UNH. Villanouva and Richmond have strong schedules, as do EWU, NAU and Weber, but Montana's schedule has been as strong as W&M's to date.

Anyone who says the Big Sky is a "fluffy" conference shows that they are either biased or don't understand the game of football, in my view. The Big Sky has consistently been a top 3 conference.

If you look at my post it was in response to squealofthepig's post. I won't get drawn in to this ridiculuous discussion, however, the CAA is one conference, it isn't 2 conferences made up of North and South. So when you compare the CAA it is only viable when you compare apples to apples (that would be the entire CAA to the Entire BSC)

[UNH Fanboi]

Because the CAA teams don't play each other this year, it is not proper to give the conference credit for all of the good teams.

Huh?

[SeattleGriz]

Huh?

He is asking how can you call your opinions of the CAA complete if they don't play everyone in the conference?

[89Hen]

Big Sky 5 I-AA/FCS National Championships
CAA 4 I-AA/FCS National Championships

WHAMMMMMMMMMMY!


Game....set....match.
xlolx Yeah, I remember the 80's.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/04_01/spandauREX0904_468x306.jpg
http://www.tvguide.com/images/pgimg/miami-vice4.jpg
http://jeffpearlman.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/buck_rogers-30_1102984129.jpg

[89Hen]

So you are saying no one has consistency? xthumbsupx
The difference is that in the CAA if you're not great, you will get beaten by great teams. In the Big Sky, if the Griz are not great, they're still better than the other 7-8 teams.

[Green26]

If you look at my post it was in response to squealofthepig's post. I won't get drawn in to this ridiculuous discussion, however, the CAA is one conference, it isn't 2 conferences made up of North and South. So when you compare the CAA it is only viable when you compare apples to apples (that would be the entire CAA to the Entire BSC)


It is not possible to truly compare, apples to apples, a conference in which all teams play each other each year and a conference in which all teams don't play each other each year. Even comparing a team with 12 members with conferences with fewer, or far fewer, members can be misleading. If you want to compare them apples to apples, you need to dig deeper and do more analysis.

As I said, one part of the CAA is very strong this year, and the other part is not strong at all. As an example, one certainly can't make the argument that UNH is a great team this year because they play in the CAA--because they haven't and won't play many of the top teams. Again, saying the CAA has lots of very good teams, must be balanced with saying the CAA also has lots of weak and mediocre teams. My view is that the CAA, while very good and the best in recent years, gets undue credit for being better than it is, because it has 12 teams (so more good ones) and most of the top teams don't all play each other each year. I'm am talking only a matter of degree. The CAA is obviously very good.

Using the Sagarin, the CAA is currently only ranked a bit ahead of the Great West, and a bit more ahead of the Big Sky.

Again, in my view, the CAA is not "much better" top to bottom than the other top conferences. It is merely "better".

[GannonFan]

It is not possible to truly compare, apples to apples, a conference in which all teams play each other each year and a conference in which all teams don't play each other each year. Even comparing a team with 12 members with conferences with fewer, or far fewer, members can be misleading. If you want to compare them apples to apples, you need to dig deeper and do more analysis.

As I said, one part of the CAA is very strong this year, and the other part is not strong at all. As an example, one certainly can't make the argument that UNH is a great team this year because they play in the CAA--because they haven't and won't play many of the top teams. Again, saying the CAA has lots of very good teams, must be balanced with saying the CAA also has lots of weak and mediocre teams. My view is that the CAA, while very good and the best in recent years, gets undue credit for being better than it is, because it has 12 teams (so more good ones) and most of the top teams don't all play each other each year. I'm am talking only a matter of degree. The CAA is obviously very good.

Using the Sagarin, the CAA is currently only ranked a bit ahead of the Great West, and a bit more ahead of the Big Sky.

Again, in my view, the CAA is not "much better" top to bottom than the other top conferences. It is merely "better".

Huh? Of the top 4 teams in the CAA this year (Richmond, W&M, nova, and UNH) 2 of them will play 2 of the others (Richmond plays nova and W&M, UNH plays W&M and nova) while 2 of them will play 3 of the others (W&M and nova play all of the others). UNH hasn't "missed" good teams this year - the CAA's been much more balanced North and South this year and nobody from the North got a beneficial treatment from the schedule this year (UNH played nova, W&M, and Towson instead of playing Richmond, JMU, and UD - so actually UNH got perhaps the harder of the schedules considering they played 2 playoff teams).

[Poker Alan]

xlolx Yeah, I remember the 80's.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/04_01/spandauREX0904_468x306.jpg
http://www.tvguide.com/images/pgimg/miami-vice4.jpg
http://jeffpearlman.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/buck_rogers-30_1102984129.jpg

A lil over the top, since we are talking about 95 & 01.... The glory years BEGAN in the mid-80's, and are still going strong to this day...

[89Hen]

A lil over the top, since we are talking about 95 & 01.... The glory years BEGAN in the mid-80's, and are still going strong to this day...
So one of the six was in the last 10 years and two in the last 20. Gotcha. xcoffeex

[89Hen]

Using the Sagarin, the CAA is currently only ranked a bit ahead of the Great West
That ought to tell you all you need to know about the Sagarin. xreadx

[wideright82]

That ought to tell you all you need to know about the Sagarin. xreadx



xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx the czar hath spoken

[GrizNzonecrazy]

As the original poster and the man that did the math let me clarify a couple of things.....

1) This thread was not created for the purpose of saying that the CAA was not the best conference as it clearly is this year. My point was simply to show that the Big Sky is not a doormat as everyone considers it to be.

2) The best (and arguably only) way to measure conference strength as it related to other conferences is to look at the OOC results. And based on the OOC results the CAA's top 6 defeated teams that were ranked an average of 171.5 according to the Sagarin numbers. The BSC's top 5 defeated teams with an average of 171.7. The CAA top 6 lost to teams with an average of 52.0 and the BSC lost to those averaging 55.3. I'd say the OOC results were pretty close, though admittedly, the CAA has the SLIGHT edge.

3) And being as everyone here want to argue depth by including all 9 BSC teams and all 12 CAA teams lets look at the OOC results from the entire conferences and put them together. The ENTIRE CAA in OOC play beat teams with an average of a 177.28 ranking according to the Sagarin numbers. The BSC as a whole was nearly identical by beating team that averaged 177.15. However, the CAA as a whole recorded losses against teams that averaged just 108.46 while the BSC lost to teams with an average of 78.71. That is quite a difference.

In summary, I still will agree that the CAA is the best but only barely. The CAA and the BSC scored almost identical in relation to OOC wins but the BSC's OOC losses were to far better competition (on average) than those of the CAA.

[soccerguy315]

2) The best (and arguably only) way to measure conference strength as it related to other conferences is to look at the OOC results.

no

[MacThor]

Now you're just making stuff up. The top five teams in the CAA have ZERO OOC losses. So how do they have an average of 52.0?

The top 5 in the CAA are 13-0 outside their conference, with 4 FBS teams in there.
The top 5 in the BSC are 7-6 outside their conference.

That's a slight edge?

[GrizNzonecrazy]

i included Delaware and UMass....who lost to K State and in all reality will more than likely lose to Navy.....hence the 2 losses which averaged to the 52.0. I was measuring the top half of each conference.

I corrected my error in the most recent post....the original one said top 6 as did every other one concerning the subject.....typo on my part

[GrizNzonecrazy]

and yeah....its a slight edge when you consider that Cal, Ole Miss, and Arizona aren't seriously winnable games and its hard to even consider Michigan St a winnable game. The Colorado St and Wyoming losses by Weber were the only ones that really could have/should have been wins. The non FBS portion of EVERY CAA team's schedule was pathetic at best and the FBS teams they played were middle of the road at best. The sky played all FBS games against BCS leagues with the exception of a couple Mountain West games. Saying a CAA game against Ball St, Duke, or Temple is comparable to a BSC game vs Cal, Arizona, Ole Miss, Michigan St, etc.. is just not rational thought.

[tribe_pride]

and yeah....its a slight edge when you consider that Cal, Ole Miss, and Arizona aren't seriously winnable games and its hard to even consider Michigan St a winnable game. The Colorado St and Wyoming losses by Weber were the only ones that really could have/should have been wins. The non FBS portion of EVERY CAA team's schedule was pathetic at best and the FBS teams they played were middle of the road at best. The sky played all FBS games against BCS leagues with the exception of a couple Mountain West games. Saying a CAA game against Ball St, Duke, or Temple is comparable to a BSC game vs Cal, Arizona, Ole Miss, Michigan St, etc.. is just not rational thought.

Since you are saying how the the conferences performed against teams by looking at the sagarin rankings of the FBS opponents

CAA FBS wins for top 6: 65 (by 3), 66 (by 12), 70 (by 8), 162 (by 7)
CAA FBS losses for top 6: 63 (by 4)
CAA FBS to play: 41

BSC FBS wins for top 5:
BSC FBS losses for top 5: 14 (by 17), 25 (by 52), 38 (by 24), 51 (by 41), 97 (by 1), 107 (by 7)

It seems to me that generally, the top 6 schedule strong (UNH as the exception) and performed well in those games. The BSC had 2 games scheduled against 100 teams and lost both and then performed poorly against the 51 ranked team.

By the way, do you want the CAA to schedule automatic losses for FBS games. That's dumb. With the exception of UNH-Ball St., the CAA makes sure they had chances to win but did not schedule easy win FBS games. In 3 of those 4 so far they won including 2 games against FBS schools and 1 against a Temple team that will go to its conference championship. And 3 of the 4 FBS wins were against teams that were better than 2 of the BSC FBS losses.

As I have said throughout, your OOC scheduling analysis is fine but you are not analyzing the performance of teams against all teams. The Sagarin rankings are necessary to do that because it combines the scheduling strength and teams' performances against those teams.

[MacThor]

i included Delaware and UMass....who lost to K State and in all reality will more than likely lose to Navy.....hence the 2 losses which averaged to the 52.0. I was measuring the top half of each conference.

I corrected my error in the most recent post....the original one said top 6 as did every other one concerning the subject.....typo on my part

So you are including UMass, who is NOT in the CAA top 5, and a Delaware loss that hasn't even happened yet, and AVERAGING those two (including an imaginary) losses, and saying those are stats to prove your case?

Way to manipulate and make up stats.

[MacThor]

Ugh. So, adjusting for your imaginary games and "typos"...

The short version of your analysis is:

Against statistically similar competition,
the CAA is 22-12 OOC and
the BSC is 10-14.

[Green26]

CSN Way columnist Burton says:

"Seeds: No. 1 Montana, No. 2 Southern Illinois, No. 3 Elon, No. 4 Villanova"

Hum, where are all the hotshot teams from the CAA?

[tribe_pride]

CSN Way columnist Burton says:

"Seeds: No. 1 Montana, No. 2 Southern Illinois, No. 3 Elon, No. 4 Villanova"

Hum, where are all the hotshot teams from the CAA?

Well, Villanova is at #4 so that is 1 CAA team. I do see Montana at #1 and nobody from the CAA has argued that Montana is not good or deserving of a seed (and everyone has agreed that they are a title contender) so having them as a seed makes sense to everyone here.

Now lets see who the rest of his playoff teams are. Here are the playoff teams according to Burton, the guy you quoted:


Autobids:
Big Sky: Montana
CAA: Villanova
MEAC: South Carolina State
Missouri Valley: Southern Illinois
OVC: Eastern Illinois
Patriot: Holy Cross
SoCon: Elon
Southland: Stephen F. Austin

At-Larges:
1. CAA: Richmond
2. CAA: William & Mary
3. SoCon: Appalachian State
4. MVFC: South Dakota State
5. CAA: New Hampshire
6. Patriot: Lafayette
7. Southland: McNeese State
8. MVFC: Northern Iowa

Playoff teams by conference:

CAA - 4
MVC - 3
SoCon - 2
Patriot - 2
Southalnd - 2
Big Sky - 1
MEAC - 1
OVC - 1

[soccerguy315]

CSN Way columnist Burton says:

"Seeds: No. 1 Montana, No. 2 Southern Illinois, No. 3 Elon, No. 4 Villanova"

Hum, where are all the hotshot teams from the CAA?

according to that guy, they are apparently getting snubbed by Elon, who is going to jump Villanova by winning 1 game against a Top 10 team, when Villanova has 2 Top 10 wins and an FBS win...

hmm...

[SeattleGriz]

according to that guy, they are apparently getting snubbed by Elon, who is going to jump Villanova by winning 1 game against a Top 10 team, when Villanova has 2 Top 10 wins and an FBS win...

hmm...

Vill A Noya should have gotten their crap together and not lost to the CAA tourney whipping boy UNH. They deserve what they get.

[UncleSam]

Vill A Noya should have gotten their crap together and not lost to the CAA tourney whipping boy UNH. They deserve what they get.

It's extremely difficult to win every game when you play in a very competitive conference, but then again I do understand that the concept of a 'competitive conference' would be totally foreign to any Griz fan.

[mlbowl]

Vill A Noya should have gotten their crap together and not lost to the CAA tourney whipping boy UNH. They deserve what they get.

xlolxNice S G

[UNHFootballAlum]

Vill A Noya should have gotten their crap together and not lost to the CAA tourney whipping boy UNH. They deserve what they get.

You must have UNH confused with a MEAC or OVC school.

[GRIZCLAW]

As a Griz fan, there are a couple of missing points. First, just because the Griz may walk through the BSC doesn't necessarily mean the other teams are not any good. Most reasonable Griz fans acknowledge, appreciate and respect CAA teams, and other top notch programs across the country. The story does get old with the "one hit wonders" that talk smack with nothing to back it up. While I realize we're talking about this years team, it is important to look at the body of work of a program over the long term, and there are some great traditions out there, and quite frankly Montana is one of those. Averaging over 25,000 fans a game isn't a bad start. Point is, we simply ask that teams from the CAA conference (and others) don't dismiss the BSC, and Montana, every year to the point posters have to go nuts with stats, numbers, graphs and charts trying to prove they are better than the next guy. It would be great if all the top teams in the CAA and other top conferences would give the Griz a home/home series, but no one will come to Montana. There are simply no takers. We've got the money to bring you here, but no one seems to want to pay us to come to their place. We would appreciate the opportunity to play you during the year and not just in the playoffs. Lastly, we appreciate those of you who don't dismiss West Coast schools out-of-hand. We do love playing good teams in the playoffs, and there are lots of great teams out there. I don't understand the arguments over whether one conference is better than the others. The conferences don't play games, teams do. We love playing Appy, Richmond, Delaware, McNeese, Northern Iowa, Woffard, etc...come on out West for one! Congrats to all the great teams this year, and an exciting playoffs!!!

[Poker Alan]

according to that guy, they are apparently getting snubbed by Elon, who is going to jump Villanova by winning 1 game against a Top 10 team, when Villanova has 2 Top 10 wins and an FBS win...

hmm...

Agreed, the CAA should have two seeds, and Elon/App St. should just realize that their title dreams will be on the road starting in the quarters or semis, if they get that far.


Vill A Noya should have gotten their crap together and not lost to the CAA tourney whipping boy UNH. They deserve what they get.

Uggghhh, as a Griz fan, I hate seeing statements like this. Especially after our escape against the Ben-gals... The CAA is better, but Montana is worthy of a seed this year, provided they win out. Two from the CAA, S. Illinois & MT... thanks for playing.

[blukeys]

Agreed, the CAA should have two seeds, and Elon/App St. should just realize that their title dreams will be on the road starting in the quarters or semis, if they get that far.



Uggghhh, as a Griz fan, I hate seeing statements like this. Especially after our escape against the Ben-gals... The CAA is better, but Montana is worthy of a seed this year, provided they win out. Two from the CAA, S. Illinois & MT... thanks for playing.

You can relax Alan, Most of us who have been around awhile are accustomed to Seattlegriz's 'unique' style. Things are always a little more lively when SG is around. Welcome back SG.

[Proud Griz Man]

You use so many stats and facts, but then use opinion and conjecture to try to drive home the point. Good effort though. xthumbsupx

Hello Kettle, meet Pot. This guy writes the same style as you Hen. xnodx

[WMTribe90]

Assuming no upsets next week, the seeds should be...

Montana, SIU, VU and UR/WM winner.

If I had a spot at the table.

1) VU
2) SIU
3) UR/WM
4) Montana

The margins are razor thin, but I think all the 10-1 teams have better resumes than Montana and their 10 DI wins.

[GrizNzonecrazy]

Assuming no upsets next week, the seeds should be...

Montana, SIU, VU and UR/WM winner.

If I had a spot at the table.

1) VU
2) SIU
3) UR/WM
4) Montana

The margins are razor thin, but I think all the 10-1 teams have better resumes than Montana and their 10 DI wins.

And thank God you dont......that makes me sick to think that you east coast biased a$$holes really can think like that. You think last year's runner up and perennial powerhouse that cureently has the longest winning streak in the FCS and hasnt lost since the NC last season is not worthy of a top 2? Again, your stupidity makes me sick.....

[UNH Fanboi]

And thank God you dont......You think last year's runner up and perennial powerhouse that cureently has the longest winning streak in the FCS and hasnt lost since the NC last season is not worthy of a top 2? Again, your stupidity makes me sick.....

And thank god you don't have a seat at the table either. Them being runner up last year and a perennial powerhouse has nothing to do with how they should be seeded this year.

Is it really that much of an injustice for a 10-1 team with more big wins and stronger schedule to be ranked ahead of an 11-0 team? Are wins and losses really all that matter? Should a 9-2 Liberty automatically get in over an 8-3 E Wash?

[SpidersSportsEditor]

And thank God you dont......You think last year's runner up and perennial powerhouse that cureently has the longest winning streak in the FCS and hasnt lost since the NC last season is not worthy of a top 2? Again, your stupidity makes me sick.....


Well, since most people who don't live in Montana and follow FCS football probably think that Nova, Richmond, W&M, SIU and App St would all be favored to beat Montana on a neutral site, I'm not sure what you don't understand. But unfortunately the undefeated record will get the Griz a top 2 seed, even though they aren't one of the best two teams in the country. I just hope the seeding works out so that App or a CAA team gets to go into Missoula and end their season there so the Griz fans don't have to waste the drive to Chatty again.

[Silenoz]

Well, since most people who don't live in Montana and follow FCS football probably think that Nova, Richmond, W&M, SIU and App St would all be favored to beat Montana on a neutral site, I'm not sure what you don't understand. But unfortunately the undefeated record will get the Griz a top 2 seed, even though they aren't one of the best two teams in the country. I just hope the seeding works out so that App or a CAA team gets to go into Missoula and end their season there so the Griz fans don't have to waste the drive to Chatty again.

You stay classy

[GrizNzonecrazy]

Ha ha thats just funny......I guess when you are the Griz you just arent allowed to have a bad game (which i'm pretty sure we still managed to win....). If the score of ISU was 49-3 like it should have been i dont think these opinions would be as prevalent. We did seem to take care of business today but that matters none. I guess the rest of the country should just quit playing football and forfeit the remaining games to the all mighty CAA....Why bother even taking the field if we are such an inferrior team? Again, you east coasters amaze me.....

[tribe_pride]

And thank God you dont......You think last year's runner up and perennial powerhouse that cureently has the longest winning streak in the FCS and hasnt lost since the NC last season is not worthy of a top 2? Again, your stupidity makes me sick.....

Look at the resume of each of the 6 teams using sagarin rankings - included ASU (I will assume wins next week - only 1 of W&M/Richmond could really happen - the other is eliminated from seed hunt) Look at the amount of top 100 wins for the other 3(4) teams and look who they lost to.

Villanova beat both W&M and Richmond head to head
Wins - at 57, 60, at 65 (FBS), 116, at 117, at 137, 192, 193, 195, 214
Loss - at 98

SIU
Wins - at 82, at 86, 139, 148, 155, 163, at 191, at 202, at 220, DII
Loss - at 73 (FBS)

Richmond
Wins: 60, at 70 (FBS), 115, at 116, at 117, at 147, 154, at 195, 224, 241
Loss: 46

William & Mary
Wins: at 57, at 66 (FBS), 98, 116, 117, at 169, 173, at 192, at 193, 195
Loss: at 46

Montana
Wins: 103, at 109, 113, at 122, at 129, 136, at 158, 174, 176, at 204, DII
Loss: ---

ASU
Wins: at 106, at 168, 170, 172, 175, at 178, at 184, 225, 239
Losses: at 68 (FCS), 132

[GrizNzonecrazy]

Montana
Wins: 103, at 109, 113, at 122, at 129, 136, at 158, 174, 176, at 204, DII
Loss: ---

Exactly.....Thanks for making my point.....

[GRIZCLAW]

xthumbsupx
Well, since most people who don't live in Montana and follow FCS football probably think that Nova, Richmond, W&M, SIU and App St would all be favored to beat Montana on a neutral site, I'm not sure what you don't understand. But unfortunately the undefeated record will get the Griz a top 2 seed, even though they aren't one of the best two teams in the country. I just hope the seeding works out so that App or a CAA team gets to go into Missoula and end their season there so the Griz fans don't have to waste the drive to Chatty again.

I'm not sure any rational Montana fan would argue that the CAA is not an excellent conference, with great tradition, and great teams. I'm also sure that since the east coast teams are more well known than Montana, they would be favored, and I have no problem with that. We deal with this issue every day. But you should know, there isn't a Montana fan I know of who wouldn't love to have any CAA team (or other highly ranked team) come to WA-GRIZ so both teams could showcase their talents on the field. We'd love to see it during the regular season, but we can't get anyone to play us home/home. And don't ever think we won't take a trip to TN any time we can get it. Richmond had a great team last year and won. Congrats. We beat the #1 team at their place to get there. But save all the sarcasm for a team that deserves it. The Griz will take whatever the Committee gives us and be happy. But we deserve a seed at a minimum if we go undefeated. Would you agree with that?

[tribe_pride]

Exactly.....Thanks for making my point.....

No I didn't

Montana has not played 1 team in the top 100 in the NCAA all year.
Villanova played 4 and went 3-1 in those games,
Richmond played 3 and went 2-1 in those games
W&M played 4 and went 3-1 in those games (really only 1 of Richmond or W&M will happen)
SIU played 3 and went 2-1 in those games.

All of those teams were undefeated against teams outside fo the top 100 teams in the country. They just chose to play a tougher strength of schedule and were successful in those games only losing 1 of those games. If schedule strength was not to be rewarded then teams such as Butler, Drake, ODU and Prairie View would be in the playoffs

That said, I don't think any of us would be surprised for Montana to get a better seed than 4 or to even win the championship (same for the other 5 listed).

[SpidersSportsEditor]

xthumbsupx

I'm not sure any rational Montana fan would argue that the CAA is not an excellent conference, with great tradition, and great teams. I'm also sure that since the east coast teams are more well known than Montana, they would be favored, and I have no problem with that. We deal with this issue every day. But you should know, there isn't a Montana fan I know of who wouldn't love to have any CAA team (or other highly ranked team) come to WA-GRIZ so both teams could showcase their talents on the field. We'd love to see it during the regular season, but we can't get anyone to play us home/home. And don't ever think we won't take a trip to TN any time we can get it. Richmond had a great team last year and won. Congrats. We beat the #1 team at their place to get there. But save all the sarcasm for a team that deserves it. The Griz will take whatever the Committee gives us and be happy. But we deserve a seed at a minimum if we go undefeated. Would you agree with that?

Yes, and you'll get one.

[GRIZCLAW]

No I didn't

Montana has not played 1 team in the top 100 in the NCAA all year.
Villanova played 4 and went 3-1 in those games,
Richmond played 3 and went 2-1 in those games
W&M played 4 and went 3-1 in those games (really only 1 of Richmond or W&M will happen)
SIU played 3 and went 2-1 in those games.

All of those teams were undefeated against teams outside fo the top 100 teams in the country. They just chose to play a tougher strength of schedule and were successful in those games only losing 1 of those games. If schedule strength was not to be rewarded then teams such as Butler, Drake, ODU and Prairie View would be in the playoffs

That said, I don't think any of us would be surprised for Montana to get a better seed than 4 or to even win the championship (same for the other 5 listed).

My bad, should never have assumed anyone from CAA would allow a rational discussion, and recognize there are great teams all over the country. Sagarin is not the only measure of SOS, but that's for another thread. We'd still love to have you come out West and play us at WA-GRIZ, having traveled across the country like we do every year, after year, after year, after year... We'll take playing in the NC every year no matter where it is. It'll be fun to see how things shake out, how teams are seeded, and watch the playoffs. Nothing like football in November/December. I assume you'll agree with that. There will be plenty of teams from both the BSC and the CAA that will wish they were in our collective shoes...xeyebrowx

[CaliGrizFan]

Look at the resume of each of the 6 teams using sagarin rankings - included ASU (I will assume wins next week - only 1 of W&M/Richmond could really happen - the other is eliminated from seed hunt) Look at the amount of top 100 wins for the other 3(4) teams and look who they lost to.

Villanova beat both W&M and Richmond head to head
Wins - at 57, 60, at 65 (FBS), 116, at 117, at 137, 192, 193, 195, 214
Loss - at 98

SIU
Wins - at 82, at 86, 139, 148, 155, 163, at 191, at 202, at 220, DII
Loss - at 73 (FBS)

Richmond
Wins: 60, at 70 (FBS), 115, at 116, at 117, at 147, 154, at 195, 224, 241
Loss: 46

William & Mary
Wins: at 57, at 66 (FBS), 98, 116, 117, at 169, 173, at 192, at 193, 195
Loss: at 46

Montana
Wins: 103, at 109, 113, at 122, at 129, 136, at 158, 174, 176, at 204, DII
Loss: ---

ASU
Wins: at 106, at 168, 170, 172, 175, at 178, at 184, 225, 239
Losses: at 68 (FCS), 132

Average win ranking for 10 wins

Nova 134.6 with a loss

SIU 160.6 using 220 for D2 win for 10th win and with a loss

Richmond 143.9 with a loss

WM 137.6 with a loss

Montana 142.4 with 11th D2 win and no losses

ASU 179.7 avg. with only 9 wins and 2 losses.

Montana stacks up well with any of the other top teams in FCS. Yes the griz has a D2 win that wasn't counted in the averages, but they also don't have a loss, that's a wash imo. Yes, the CAA has more top line teams, but the BSC ranks right up there according to the numbers.

[SeattleGriz]

You must have UNH confused with a MEAC or OVC school.

Actually, it was a compliment. UNH always gets the shaft from the NCAA in regards to first round game. I could have worded it better.

[GrizNzonecrazy]

No I didn't

Montana has not played 1 team in the top 100 in the NCAA all year.
Villanova played 4 and went 3-1 in those games,
Richmond played 3 and went 2-1 in those games
W&M played 4 and went 3-1 in those games (really only 1 of Richmond or W&M will happen)
SIU played 3 and went 2-1 in those games.

All of those teams were undefeated against teams outside fo the top 100 teams in the country. They just chose to play a tougher strength of schedule and were successful in those games only losing 1 of those games. If schedule strength was not to be rewarded then teams such as Butler, Drake, ODU and Prairie View would be in the playoffs

That said, I don't think any of us would be surprised for Montana to get a better seed than 4 or to even win the championship (same for the other 5 listed).

The only problem with this is that in the end its people that make the final decisions and the two polls done by people and not computers that are large factors in the process we are #1 (coaches poll) and #2 in TSN poll.....

[SeattleGriz]

You can relax Alan, Most of us who have been around awhile are accustomed to Seattlegriz's 'unique' style. Things are always a little more lively when SG is around. Welcome back SG.

Thanks for putting up with me Blukeys. Note the time posted = sloppy drunk at the computer.

[93henfan]

Well, this thread sure crapped on the linens.

Where's our old friend who would have locked this at page 2 a year ago?


My two cents: CAA is clearly the best conference. Montana is clearly one of the best historical teams in I-AA/FCS history. However, if Montana were in the CAA, they'd take a number to win the conference just like Richmond, Nova, JMU, Delaware, W&M, UNH, UMass, and Maine do every year (no offense to our brethren from Hofstra, Towson, Northeastern, and URI, but you guys need to pick it up). Just about every September, those eight CAA teams can realistically be expected to make a run. The same can't be said about eight teams in any other conference.

[GrizNzonecrazy]

Well, this thread sure crapped on the linens.

Where's our old friend who would have locked this at page 2 a year ago?


My two cents: CAA is clearly the best conference. Montana is clearly one of the best historical teams in I-AA/FCS history. However, if Montana were in the CAA, they'd take a number to win the conference just like Richmond, Nova, JMU, Delaware, W&M, UNH, UMass, and Maine do every year (no offense to our brethren from Hofstra, Towson, Northeastern, and URI, but you guys need to pick it up). Just about every September, those eight CAA teams can realistically expected to make a run. The same can't be said about eight teams in any other conference.

Ha ha we'd take a number eh? I'd say that 6 NC appearances since 95 means that we are still better most years than the CAA's top team....granted we have two losses to the CAA in the NC game we still have gotten there 6 times

[93henfan]

Ha ha we'd take a number eh? I'd say that 6 NC appearances since 95 means that we are still better most years than the CAA's top team....granted we have two losses to the CAA in the NC game we still have gotten there 6 times

The CAA has gotten there six times as well and has four championships from four different teams in the timeframe you reference. Like I said, Montana would take a number if they faced real competition in the regular season and had to play on the road after taking a loss or two or three like CAA teams do getting through the CAA gauntlet. Thanks for playing. xpeacex

[GRIZCLAW]

The CAA has gotten there six times as well and has four championships from four different teams in the timeframe you reference. Like I said, Montana would take a number if they faced real competition in the regular season and had to play on the road after taking a loss or two or three like CAA teams do getting through the CAA gauntlet. Thanks for playing. xpeacex

So, now, remind us all exactly where Delaware will be playing next week?xhurrayxxhurrayx

[Proud Griz Man]

Well, this thread sure crapped on the linens.

Where's our old friend who would have locked this at page 2 a year ago?


My two cents: CAA is clearly the best conference. Montana is clearly one of the best historical teams in I-AA/FCS history. However, if Montana were in the CAA, they'd take a number to win the conference just like Richmond, Nova, JMU, Delaware, W&M, UNH, UMass, and Maine do every year (no offense to our brethren from Hofstra, Towson, Northeastern, and URI, but you guys need to pick it up). Just about every September, those eight CAA teams can realistically be expected to make a run. The same can't be said about eight teams in any other conference.

http://www.randomimage.us/files/41512d40caa66.gif

OBTW, Morgan State, Georgetown, URI, Towson, Northeastern, and Towson do not really impress me. Just sayin'.

OBTW remind us all exactly where Delaware will be playing next week?

[rancher griz]

The CAA has gotten there six times as well and has four championships from four different teams in the timeframe you reference. Like I said, Montana would take a number if they faced real competition in the regular season and had to play on the road after taking a loss or two or three like CAA teams do getting through the CAA gauntlet. Thanks for playing. xpeacex

It's my opinion that Montana is, at the VERY least, as good as the top 3 teams in the CAA year in and year out. Additionally, I don't remember any year since our streak that we didn't deserve to be in the playoffs. Even though the CAA is consistently the best conference, it isn't so much better to make arrogant accusations that Montana would have a substantially more difficult time reaching the level of success they've earned if they played in a conference such as yours. One could also make an argument that a tougher regular season schedule would better prepare Montana for the playoffs. We don’t take numbers, we win games.

P.S.: MSU, EWU, WSU, and NAU all are capable of beating the best in your conference.

[tribe_pride]

It's my opinion that Montana is, at the VERY least, as good as the top 3 teams in the CAA year in and year out. Additionally, I don't remember any year since our streak that we didn't deserve to be in the playoffs. Even though the CAA is consistently the best conference, it isn't so much better to make arrogant accusations that Montana would have a substantially more difficult time reaching the level of success they've earned if they played in a conference such as yours. One could also make an argument that a tougher regular season schedule would better prepare Montana for the playoffs. We don’t take numbers, we win games.

P.S.: MSU, EWU, WSU, and NAU all are capable of beating the best in your conference.

All we are saying is that if Montana was in the CAA, it probably wouldn't be undefeated this year. No team in the CAA is undefeated because there are a number of teams that are at Montana's level. A little bit of an off week by Montana and a step up by another team and Montana loses just like an off week by one of the top CAA teams and a step up by the CAA team and Montana wins.

Nobody here is arguing that Montana is worse than the top of the CAA. We are just that we have a number of teams at that level so there are more chances of more losses. Trust me. Nobody wants to go to Wa-Griz for a playoff game. Montana is a tough team to beat.

[ccd494]

http://www.randomimage.us/files/41512d40caa66.gif

OBTW, Morgan State, Georgetown, URI, Towson, Northeastern, and Towson do not really impress me. Just sayin'.

OBTW remind us all exactly where Delaware will be playing next week?

How did Morgan State and Georgetown get added into this?


You also listed Towson twice.

Good work though, you're really conversing at a high level.

[uofmman1122]

Griz fans, just let it go.

Hopefully we'll get our chance to prove them wrong on the field.

You'll never prove anything on this board. xpeacex

[MacThor]

You are acting as if it was a CAA fan who started this thread and manipulated statistics to make his argument. It wasn't.

Had your chance to prove it in Chatty last year. 3rd place CAA South 24, UM 7. UM wasn't even in the top 5 teams UR faced last year. But they did well to make the final.

[SpiderInTheMixingBowl]

You are acting as if it was a CAA fan who started this thread and manipulated statistics to make his argument. It wasn't.

Exactly. The post that started this thread reminded me of this quote:

He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp posts - for support rather than for illumination.
-Andrew Lang

[tribe_pride]

Griz fans, just let it go.

Hopefully we'll get our chance to prove them wrong on the field.

You'll never prove anything on this board. xpeacex

You are acting as if any CAA fan has said that Montana has no chance to win it all. I think every CAA fan thinks that Montana has the ability to win it all. It almost did it last year and has the ability to do it again this year.

[YoUDeeMan]

So, now, remind us all exactly where Delaware will be playing next week?xhurrayxxhurrayx

Uhhhh...at 'nova. You know, one of the 3 - 4 teams in the CAA that are better than anything the Big Fluffy sky has to offer.

If UD played in the big Sky, we'd be in the playoffs. xthumbsupx

[GRIZCLAW]

Uhhhh...at 'nova. You know, one of the 3 - 4 teams in the CAA that are better than anything the Big Fluffy sky has to offer.

If UD played in the big Sky, we'd be in the playoffs. xthumbsupx

And don't think we don't wish you the best of luck against Nova, by golly. So now, remind me where you will be playing when the playoffs start? Besides, we wouldn't let a "bluehen" in our conference....xwhistlex

[UncleSam]

It continues to amaze that Griz fans can't grasp the concept that they have a great program, but that they have the huge advantage of playing in a mediocre league. Montana is no doubt one of the elite programs in the FCS, but when you have won or shared the BSC title for 12 consectutive years, that streak says much more about the strength of your league, rather than the quality of your program.

[mlbowl]

Had your chance to prove it in Chatty last year. 3rd place CAA South 24, UM 7.

1ST place CAA 27, UM 35.

[mlbowl]

It continues to amaze that Griz fans can't grasp the concept that they have a great program, but that they have the huge advantage of playing in a mediocre league. Montana is no doubt one of the elite programs in the FCS, but when you have won or shared the BSC title for 12 consectutive years, that streak says much more about the strength of your league, rather than the quality of your program.

Most Griz fans realize the fact that the CAA is the best conference and extremely competitive...but this statement "UM wasn't even in the top 5 teams UR faced last year" is borderline retarded!

[GRIZCLAW]

Most Griz fans realize the fact that the CAA is the best conference and extremely competitive...but this statement "UM wasn't even in the top 5 teams UR faced last year" is borderline retarded!

Cmon mlbowl, get with it....it's not "retarded" anymore, it's "disadvantaged"...xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx

[mlbowl]

Cmon mlbowl, get with it....it's not "retarded" anymore, it's "disadvantaged"...xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx


call me old fashionedxlolxxlolxxlolx

[tribe_pride]

Most Griz fans realize the fact that the CAA is the best conference and extremely competitive...but this statement "UM wasn't even in the top 5 teams UR faced last year" is borderline retarded!

Agreed that that was a dumb comment and that was by 1 guy. Any rational one of us disagree with that statement.

UVA was better than Montana last year but after that Montana matched up with JMU, Nova, UNI and App. St. Not in the top 5 was a dumb statement.

[Tailbone]

Take 3 teams away from the CAA (any 3), and the numbers change - for all the CAA teams.
I would venture that the CAA begins to look more like the Big Sky than any CAA fan would like to admit.

In recent years, the second place BSC team has acquitted itself well against the top seed in FCS which speaks well of the quality of the conference.

[uofmman1122]

It continues to amaze that Griz fans can't grasp the concept that they have a great program, but that they have the huge advantage of playing in a mediocre league. Montana is no doubt one of the elite programs in the FCS, but when you have won or shared the BSC title for 12 consectutive years, that streak says much more about the strength of your league, rather than the quality of your program.I highly doubt there's one CAA team that could have won the Big Sky 12 years in a row. You guys have a smoking good conference, but your best team fluctuates almost every year, and your teams haven't been nearly as consistant as Montana has over the last 15 years. Richmond is only a few years removed from being 2-9 and 3-8.

Sure, I wouldn't argue that the best CAA team in a given year would probably win the Big Sky, but one team?

No way.

The CAA has been the most consistantly good conference in FCS for a while now, but Montana has been the most cosistantly good program in FCS for a while now.

[soccerguy315]

The CAA has been the most consistantly good conference in FCS for a while now, but Montana has been the most cosistantly good program in FCS for a while now.

THIS X10000

[Green26]

While the top CAA team or two would have a shot at winning the Big Sky in many years, I think Montana would be more likely to win the conference over the CAA team or teams.

Montana is a very consistent team, with few major let-downs. Even a week ago against ISU--when Montana consistently shot itself in the foot with turnovers, penalties and mistakes--Montana came away with a win. No other I-AA has consistently been consistent like Montana has been in the past 10 or 15 years.

Being a very good team and having very good talent are important, but being able to consistently win and not have let-downs is another important component.

[uofmman1122]

No other I-AA has consistently been consistent like Montana has been in the past 10 or 15 years.I lol'd. xlolx

[tribe_pride]

I think everybody is now in agreement. Montana for the longest period of time has been the most consistently good team in FCS and would have more titles in the Big Sky than if any team from the CAA was in that conference.

I think everyone also agrees that there is no chance that Montana would be 12 time defending champs in the CAA (or A-10). They would have won their share as would other teams.

The CAA has more depth (especially on the top end) than the Big Sky but Montana can compete with anyone from the CAA and the the top of the CAA can compete with Montana. Montana this year just has not played the level of competition that the top teams in the CAA have played this year.

[Green26]

Montana's level of competition this year has been about what the top CAA teams have had, with the exception of UNH (Montana's schedule has been tougher), in my view. The CAA is getting extra credit this year for wins and good games over weak or very weak I-A teams. While those were good wins/games, I think those games are skewing the strength of schedule ratings. The CAA also gets extra credit for playing each other, or some of each other. While that credit may be deserved, I'm not so sure it is. (I guess we'll see in the playoffs.)

Had UM played a I-A game (and I fully realize that it didn't), UM's strength of schedule would be a bit better. However, in my view, that would not have made UM any better than it is right now. UM's games against Davis and Cal Poly were tough games, and those teams looked very good to me. Cal Poly had beaten So. Dak. St. the week before playing UM, I believe. Both Davis and CP faded a bit. Don't know why and that surprised me.

While looking at strength of schedule is a factor, or important factor, I think it's more important to focus primarily on the schedule against I-AA teams. That is more meaningful, in my view. UM's I-AA schedule compares favorably to the top 3 CAA teams.

If you look historically at strength of schedule, including the SOS's of the I-A teams, you will often not find a correlation between the SOS and the strength and quality of a team. For example, of the top 14 I-A Sagarin teams, only 3 have schedules rated in the top 20 (Oregon, Va Tech and USC). The top 5 Sagarin teams have schedules rated 22, 32, 48, 50 and 67.

My point is that a very good team that plays a strong schedule is not necessarily better than a very good team that has played a lesser schedule. One needs to look deeper to make the analysis.

[GRIZCLAW]

Montana's level of competition this year has been about what the top CAA teams have had, with the exception of UNH (Montana's schedule has been tougher), in my view. The CAA is getting extra credit this year for wins and good games over weak or very weak I-A teams. While those were good wins/games, I think those games are skewing the strength of schedule ratings. The CAA also gets extra credit for playing each other, or some of each other. While that credit may be deserved, I'm not so sure it is. (I guess we'll see in the playoffs.)

Had UM played a I-A game (and I fully realize that it didn't), UM's strength of schedule would be a bit better. However, in my view, that would not have made UM any better than it is right now. UM's games against Davis and Cal Poly were tough games, and those teams looked very good to me. Cal Poly had beaten So. Dak. St. the week before playing UM, I believe. Both Davis and CP faded a bit. Don't know why and that surprised me.

While looking at strength of schedule is a factor, or important factor, I think it's more important to focus primarily on the schedule against I-AA teams. That is more meaningful, in my view. UM's I-AA schedule compares favorably to the top 3 CAA teams.

If you look historically at strength of schedule, including the SOS's of the I-A teams, you will often not find a correlation between the SOS and the strength and quality of a team. For example, of the top 14 I-A Sagarin teams, only 3 have schedules rated in the top 20 (Oregon, Va Tech and USC). The top 5 Sagarin teams have schedules rated 22, 32, 48, 50 and 67.

My point is that a very good team that plays a strong schedule is not necessarily better than a very good team that has played a lesser schedule. One needs to look deeper to make the analysis.

Let's give this a rest. The horse was dead along time ago. It's all good! Let's have some fun in the playoffs....xthumbsupxxthumbsupxxthumbsupxxthumbsu pxxthumbsupx

[tribe_pride]

Montana's level of competition this year has been about what the top CAA teams have had, with the exception of UNH (Montana's schedule has been tougher), in my view. The CAA is getting extra credit this year for wins and good games over weak or very weak I-A teams. While those were good wins/games, I think those games are skewing the strength of schedule ratings. The CAA also gets extra credit for playing each other, or some of each other. While that credit may be deserved, I'm not so sure it is. (I guess we'll see in the playoffs.)

Villanova beat Temple who is going to go the MAC championship game -
Richmond beat Duke who is 5-5
W&M beat a 3-7 UVA team

All of those teams are Sagarin ranked in the top 75 which is much stronger than any team than Montana has played this year. Should these teams schedule lower ranked FCS teams?


Had UM played a I-A game (and I fully realize that it didn't), UM's strength of schedule would be a bit better. However, in my view, that would not have made UM any better than it is right now. UM's games against Davis and Cal Poly were tough games, and those teams looked very good to me. Cal Poly had beaten So. Dak. St. the week before playing UM, I believe. Both Davis and CP faded a bit. Don't know why and that surprised me.

You just eliminated 1 of 3 OOC games from each of the CAA teams schedule and in all cases that game was against a team that was by far ranked better than any team that UM played.


While looking at strength of schedule is a factor, or important factor, I think it's more important to focus primarily on the schedule against I-AA teams. That is more meaningful, in my view. UM's I-AA schedule compares favorably to the top 3 CAA teams.

Why? The CAA teams are trying to prepare themselves for the tough CAA schedule and the playoffs with 1 tough FBS game. It also helps recruiting for these teams when they say that they play an FBS team a year.


If you look historically at strength of schedule, including the SOS's of the I-A teams, you will often not find a correlation between the SOS and the strength and quality of a team. For example, of the top 14 I-A Sagarin teams, only 3 have schedules rated in the top 20 (Oregon, Va Tech and USC). The top 5 Sagarin teams have schedules rated 22, 32, 48, 50 and 67.

Last year's top 5 had rankings of 4, 16, 7, 14, 56
2007's were 11, 74, 40, 29, 44
2006's were 8, 2, 20, 38, 27
2005's were 13, 8, 2, 17, 26

So for 2 of the last 5 years including this year the top 5 had easy schedules. 2 of the last, they had tough schedules in general.


My point is that a very good team that plays a strong schedule is not necessarily better than a very good team that has played a lesser schedule. One needs to look deeper to make the analysis.

True. You need to combine both the SoS and the performance in those games. That is how these rankings are done. Once again, nobody is saying that Montana is bad or even close to that. Everyone has said that Montana is a really good team (national contender even)

[ccd494]

I think a major factor if you plopped Montana into the CAA would be recruiting. Montana is THE FCS program in the west. When Montana gets into a recruiting battle in the Big Sky, it's basically the kids decision "I can play for a national title at Montana, or go to Montana State and hope to beat Montana."

Kids from Massachusetts down to Georgia think: "I can play for a national title at UNH, UMass, Villanova, Delaware, James Madison, Richmond, William & Mary, App State, Georgia Southern. I can battle for the playoffs at Maine, or Lafayette, or Lehigh, or Colgate, or Fordham, or Holy Cross. I can get a fantastic education at Harvard, or Yale, or Penn, or Princeton."

Montana gets the pick of the FBS left overs out west. Not only are the CAA teams battling each other during the season, they are also going head to head all year in recruiting, plus battling the SoCon, Ivy and Patriot. It's apples and oranges, because Montana can just hit cruise control all year, both on and off the field.

[Silenoz]

I'm pretty sure most recruits have no idea where most FCS programs (including ours) are at. And most of our team is from in-state and receives no recruiting from FBS programs

[soccerguy315]

Had UM played a I-A game (and I fully realize that it didn't), UM's strength of schedule would be a bit better. However, in my view, that would not have made UM any better than it is right now. UM's games against Davis and Cal Poly were tough games, and those teams looked very good to me. Cal Poly had beaten So. Dak. St. the week before playing UM, I believe. Both Davis and CP faded a bit. Don't know why and that surprised me.

then why aren't those teams ranked in the Top 10... if they are very good?


While looking at strength of schedule is a factor, or important factor, I think it's more important to focus primarily on the schedule against I-AA teams. That is more meaningful, in my view. UM's I-AA schedule compares favorably to the top 3 CAA teams.

Please list the Montana wins that are better than:
Villanova over Richmond
Villanova over W&M
W&M over UNH
UNH over Villanova

[MacThor]

Most Griz fans realize the fact that the CAA is the best conference and extremely competitive...but this statement "UM wasn't even in the top 5 teams UR faced last year" is borderline retarded!

Poll several Spiders to rank the following '08 opponents by difficulty:
Elon
Virginia
Villanova
James Madison
Massachusetts
William & Mary
Eastern Kentucky
Appalachian State
Northern Iowa
Montana

I doubt very seriously UM ranks any higher than 5th.

[Skjellyfetti]

I really hope you didn't list those teams by difficulty. Elon first? Really? xrotatehx

[MacThor]

I really hope you didn't list those teams by difficulty. Elon first? Really? xrotatehx

No - I did it chronologically.

I am sure Montana would be ahead of Elon, UMass & EKU.

[tribe_pride]

I really hope you didn't list those teams by difficulty. Elon first? Really? xrotatehx

I think that was order they played the team. Either way, I disagree with him on his overall premise.

[mlbowl]

Poll several Spiders to rank the following '08 opponents by difficulty:
Elon
Virginia
Villanova
James Madison
Massachusetts
William & Mary
Eastern Kentucky
Appalachian State
Northern Iowa
Montana

I doubt very seriously UM ranks any higher than 5th.

If you truly believe that our poor performance in the NC was indicative of our overall strength last year then you might be...xnutsx...I'm pretty sure it was the Griz that took out JMU the week before...btw, what was the outcome of the '08 JMU vs. UR?

[MacThor]

..btw, what was the outcome of the '08 JMU vs. UR?

JMU - CAA champions
UR - NCAA champions

[mlbowl]

JMU - CAA champions
UR - NCAA champions

Not what I asked...I asked about the outcome of the UR/JMU head to head last year xreadx...but nice try!

[MacThor]

Oh, yeah. JMU beat Richmond last year. Thanks for helping make my point.

I bet the answer would be, not necessarily in this order...

UVA
JMU
Villanova
UNI
App St.

[Green26]

Thanks for all the information. I had already looked at most of it, but it was nice of you to present it for all to see.

It makes me laugh when people like to point out one or two games, facts or antecdotes, and then claim that that proves their point or disproves someone elses.

I generally don't include I-A games in my analysis, because they tend to come early in the season when teams are not yet hitting on all cylinders, I-AA teams often lose those games, some I-A teams don't take the I-AA game as seriously as they should (and the game is either closer than it should be or sometimes the I-AA teams win).

This will all settle itself in playoff selections and the playoffs. In the meantime, some of the CAA posters can continue to live in their dream worlds. (This is directed at only some of the CAA posters, and generally not the posts or posters than were provided today in response to mine.)

[Poker Alan]

I think a major factor if you plopped Montana into the CAA would be recruiting. Montana is THE FCS program in the west. When Montana gets into a recruiting battle in the Big Sky, it's basically the kids decision "I can play for a national title at Montana, or go to Montana State and hope to beat Montana."

Kids from Massachusetts down to Georgia think: "I can play for a national title at UNH, UMass, Villanova, Delaware, James Madison, Richmond, William & Mary, App State, Georgia Southern. I can battle for the playoffs at Maine, or Lafayette, or Lehigh, or Colgate, or Fordham, or Holy Cross. I can get a fantastic education at Harvard, or Yale, or Penn, or Princeton."

Montana gets the pick of the FBS left overs out west. Not only are the CAA teams battling each other during the season, they are also going head to head all year in recruiting, plus battling the SoCon, Ivy and Patriot. It's apples and oranges, because Montana can just hit cruise control all year, both on and off the field.

Out of what population base do you think we are achieving all these 'recruiting coups' from?

[Silenoz]

The bottom line is the Griz need to win the championship this year. If we don't, then we'll continue to suck in the eyes of the "CAA fans" xlolx

I mean who else has to carry that burden?

[mlbowl]

Oh, yeah. JMU beat Richmond last year. Thanks for helping make my point.

I bet the answer would be, not necessarily in this order...

UVA
JMU
Villanova
UNI
App St.


How did those paint chips taste???

[89Hen]

CSN Way columnist Burton says:

"Seeds: No. 1 Montana, No. 2 Southern Illinois, No. 3 Elon, No. 4 Villanova"

Hum, where are all the hotshot teams from the CAA?
How's that prediciton working out for you? xlolx

[89Hen]

Take 3 teams away from the CAA (any 3), and the numbers change - for all the CAA teams.
I would venture that the CAA begins to look more like the Big Sky than any CAA fan would like to admit.
xconfusedx Why would taking away the three best teams in the conference make a CAA fan reluctant to say the Big Sky would then be comparable?

[Tailbone]

xconfusedx Why would taking away the three best teams in the conference make a CAA fan reluctant to say the Big Sky would then be comparable?

Nice try. xcoffeex xfishingx