11/9/2009 Gridiron Power Index (GPI), Villanova No. 1

[CSN-info]

11/9/2009 Gridiron Power Index (GPI), Villanova No. 1
College Sporting News

The Gridiron Power Index (GPI), the index ranking for the NCAA Division I FCS and a top indicator of at-large playoff selection continues with a new leader. Villanova takes the top spot.

The Colonial Athletic Association, the largest league in the FCS has seven teams in the top 25; the Big Sky Conference has five; the Missouri Valley Football Conference has three; the Ohio Valley, Southern, and Southland Conferences plus the Patriot League have two each; and the Big South and Mid-Eastern Athletic Conferences have one each. (Games through 11/9/09)

Read more ... (http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/index.php/2009/11/09/11-9-2009-gridiron-power-index-gpi-villa-1?blog=5)

GPI INDICATES (as of 11/9):

AQ 1. Villanova (1.63)
AQ 2. S Illinois (2.75)
AQ 4T. Montana (3.75)
AQ 6. Elon (6.63)
AQ 11. S Carolina St (12.75)
AQ 15. E Illinois (16.63)
AQ 17. McNeese St (18.88)
AQ 24. Lafayette (22.13)

AL 3. Richmond (2.88)
AL 4T. William & Mary (3.75)
AL 7. New Hampshire (8.25)
AL 8. Northern Iowa (8.50)
AL 9. S Dakota St (9.00)
AL 10. Appalachian St (11.50)
AL 13. E Washington (14.38)
AL 14. Delaware (15.75)

AQ is just the higher ranked team in the conference.

TWO WEEKS LEFT

[JMUNJ08]

24 Lafayette PL 8-1 22.13 116 14 30 18 20 24 24 30 21 20 20
25 Holy Cross PL 8-1 22.75 142 15 37 23 24 31 32 32 13 13 14

Doesn't look possible for an at large based on the rankings here. Must win the auto. Liberty has a shot I'm afraid...

[knucklehead]

Liberty has a shot I'm afraid...

Fear not! it will be OK.

[Hoyadestroya85]

If Villanova maintains that kind of gap in the GPI, is there any way that the Committee can justify holding a top 2 seed from them?
I think not

[Hoyadestroya85]

If Villanova maintains that kind of gap in the GPI, is there any way that the Committee can justify holding a top 2 seed from them?
I think not

[UNH Fanboi]

They should be a lock for a 1 or 2 seed if they win out. The Delaware game could be a trap though.

[WrenFGun]

As much as I used the GPI in my argument, I really don't like having UNI ahead of SDSU. UNI's loss to SDSU should put them behind them, even if SDSU's loss to CP was questionable, and UNI's loss to Iowa was good.

[Eight Legger]

If Villanova maintains that kind of gap in the GPI, is there any way that the Committee can justify holding a top 2 seed from them?
I think not

Absolutely not. Win out and I think there's a great chance you get the #1 seed.

[Hoyadestroya85]

They should be a lock for a 1 or 2 seed if they win out. The Delaware game could be a trap though.

I consider a trap game to be a game you're not prepared for.. Villanova should be more than prepared to play Delaware especially since it's a rival game and should the Hens lose to Navy this week, they could come out flat.. but who knows.

[UNH Fanboi]

I consider a trap game to be a game you're not prepared for.. Villanova should be more than prepared to play Delaware especially since it's a rival game and should the Hens lose to Navy this week, they could come out flat.. but who knows.

I guess trap isn't the right word. I just meant that it could be a tough game.

[GannonFan]

I don't think there's any doubt that if nova wins out they have a great shot at a top 2 seed. How the CAA gives out its autobid is a non-factor in the decision and nova, with only a loss to UNH, would be well placed to be the potentially lone CAA seed.

What will be interesting is what happens with Montana. If SIU and nova win out, does Montana jump ahead of either of them to get one of the top 2 seeds. That could be more of a problem for the committee to solve than even selecting the field of 16.

[Hoyadestroya85]

If Villanova has a win over Temple and beat two teams that finish in the GPI top 5 (which UR and W&M could do,) They will absolutely be a top 2. I think at this point the Seeds will be 1. Villanova 2. Montana/SIU 3.Montana/SIU 4. UR/UNH/W&M/Elon-App winner. I think the seeds should be geographically done to a degree (without truly ruining the system) to limit the travel burden. I think the schools would rather see SIU travel to Missoula or the Griz travel to Carbondale than Villanova, Appy, Elon, W&M, UNH or Elon travel to Missoula.

[GannonFan]

If Villanova has a win over Temple and beat two teams that finish in the GPI top 5 (which UR and W&M could do,) They will absolutely be a top 2. I think at this point the Seeds will be 1. Villanova 2. Montana/SIU 3.Montana/SIU 4. UR/UNH/W&M/Elon-App winner. I think the seeds should be geographically done to a degree (without truly ruining the system) to limit the travel burden. I think the schools would rather see SIU travel to Missoula or the Griz travel to Carbondale than Villanova, Appy, Elon, W&M, UNH or Elon travel to Missoula.

Just saying, that if the committee decides that an undefeated Montana team is worthy of a top 2 seed (and certainly the $$$ will play into that very prominently), then that means that either nova or SIU would be the odd one left out. Considering that SIU is the #1 team in 2 of the 3 human polls (and ahead of nova in all 3), and considering that the GPI is not officially used as a determinant of seeds (I think the missive that came out only inferred that the committee would have the GPI available as a potential means of determining how to fill out the at large field - they did not mention they would use it to create seedings), then nova could very easily be the odd one left to take the #3 seed.

SIU has a history of hosting, and nova playoff crowds would likely be abysmal, so they have that going for them. And then, SIU does have the advantage that they have not lost to an FCS team all year. nova does have an FCS loss. And that FCS loss looks even worse if UNH loses to W&M this week.

But it's far from a sure thing that nova is going to get a top 2 seed. Certainly possible, but far from a lock.

[SuperJon]

So, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Liberty is at 21.

Sitting above them is JMU (out) and Jax St (ineligible). That theoretically puts Liberty as the 19th rated team that's eligible.

Delaware has to beat both Navy and Nova which is possible but highly unlikely, so for the sake of this question let's assume they lose one of those games and are out. That theoretically puts Liberty as the 18th rated team that's eligible.

The three teams above Liberty in the GPI (EWU, Weber St, NAU) all cannot win out. It's impossible. All three need to win out to get to seven wins. Let's assume that one of them does not win out (which is on the low side). That theoretically puts Liberty as the 17th rated team that's eligible.

Being at 16 in all three polls right now, and theoretically at 17 in the GPI, what are the chances Liberty can legitimately make a claim, in the polls, that they are worthy of that 16th slot? I'm not looking for your opinion on where they should be ranked. I'm talking about given the evidence we have in front of us, that I've laid out, what are the chances Liberty gets in?

(I give it three posts before people start attacking our schedule and saying we're too high in the polls right now even though that's completely opposite of what my question is.)

[Pitz]

So, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Liberty is at 21.

Sitting above them is JMU (out) and Jax St (ineligible). That theoretically puts Liberty as the 19th rated team that's eligible.

Delaware has to beat both Navy and Nova which is possible but highly unlikely, so for the sake of this question let's assume they lose one of those games and are out. That theoretically puts Liberty as the 18th rated team that's eligible.

The three teams above Liberty in the GPI (EWU, Weber St, NAU) all cannot win out. It's impossible. All three need to win out to get to seven wins. Let's assume that one of them does not win out (which is on the low side). That theoretically puts Liberty as the 17th rated team that's eligible.

Being at 16 in all three polls right now, and theoretically at 17 in the GPI, what are the chances Liberty can legitimately make a claim, in the polls, that they are worthy of that 16th slot? I'm not looking for your opinion on where they should be ranked. I'm talking about given the evidence we have in front of us, that I've laid out, what are the chances Liberty gets in?

(I give it three posts before people start attacking our schedule and saying we're too high in the polls right now even though that's completely opposite of what my question is.)

A 2-loss Liberty team sitting just outside the top 16? This sounds strangely familiar... (http://www.collegesportingnews.com/stats/writer/GPI/20081124gpi.html)

[GannonFan]

So, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Liberty is at 21.

Sitting above them is JMU (out) and Jax St (ineligible). That theoretically puts Liberty as the 19th rated team that's eligible.

Delaware has to beat both Navy and Nova which is possible but highly unlikely, so for the sake of this question let's assume they lose one of those games and are out. That theoretically puts Liberty as the 18th rated team that's eligible.

The three teams above Liberty in the GPI (EWU, Weber St, NAU) all cannot win out. It's impossible. All three need to win out to get to seven wins. Let's assume that one of them does not win out (which is on the low side). That theoretically puts Liberty as the 17th rated team that's eligible.

Being at 16 in all three polls right now, and theoretically at 17 in the GPI, what are the chances Liberty can legitimately make a claim, in the polls, that they are worthy of that 16th slot? I'm not looking for your opinion on where they should be ranked. I'm talking about given the evidence we have in front of us, that I've laid out, what are the chances Liberty gets in?

(I give it three posts before people start attacking our schedule and saying we're too high in the polls right now even though that's completely opposite of what my question is.)


Liberty's chances aren't good, but they're certainly much better than just after the loss at home to JMU. Right now, I give them a 25% chance to make it.

[jcmanson]

A 2-loss Liberty team sitting just outside the top 16? This sounds strangely familiar... (http://www.collegesportingnews.com/stats/writer/GPI/20081124gpi.html)

At this same time last year LU was ranked #22 in the coaches, #22 in the TSN, #24 in the AGS, and tied for #33 in the GPI.

Compare that to this year’s #16, #16, #16, and #21 respectively.

[SuperJon]

I just want to have a legitimate, intelligent discussion about it without people turning it into absolutely stupid trash talk.

[89Hen]

Sauceda

1. Villanova
2. SIU
3. Richmond
4. W&M
5. UNI
6. Montana
7. South Dakota State
8. Elon
9. UNH
10. Jacksonville State
11. Delaware
12. James Madison
13. Eastern Washington
14. Appalachian State
15. Weber State
16. Northern Arizona
17. Massachusetts
18. South Carolina State
19. Eastern Illinois
20. Montana State
21. Stephen F Austin
22. McNeese State
23. Liberty
24. Southern Utah
25. UC Davis

xcoolx

[knucklehead]

At this same time last year LU was ranked #22 in the coaches, #22 in the TSN, #24 in the AGS, and tied for #33 in the GPI.

Compare that to this year’s #16, #16, #16, and #21 respectively.

Stop throwing out facts. They don't want to hear them. This year's scenario stands alone far apart from last year.

We are in good position this year, with nowhere to move but up if we win out. Last year we had a terrable loss, this year we have no such loss.

Someone take Super's #'s and answer the question. Judge it on this year.

[UNH Fanboi]

So, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Liberty is at 21.

Sitting above them is JMU (out) and Jax St (ineligible). That theoretically puts Liberty as the 19th rated team that's eligible.

Delaware has to beat both Navy and Nova which is possible but highly unlikely, so for the sake of this question let's assume they lose one of those games and are out. That theoretically puts Liberty as the 18th rated team that's eligible.

The three teams above Liberty in the GPI (EWU, Weber St, NAU) all cannot win out. It's impossible. All three need to win out to get to seven wins. Let's assume that one of them does not win out (which is on the low side). That theoretically puts Liberty as the 17th rated team that's eligible.

Being at 16 in all three polls right now, and theoretically at 17 in the GPI, what are the chances Liberty can legitimately make a claim, in the polls, that they are worthy of that 16th slot? I'm not looking for your opinion on where they should be ranked. I'm talking about given the evidence we have in front of us, that I've laid out, what are the chances Liberty gets in?

(I give it three posts before people start attacking our schedule and saying we're too high in the polls right now even though that's completely opposite of what my question is.)

Don't worry about their ranking. Liberty is at the mercy of what happens in the Southland, Big Sky and Patriot and how they stack up h2h against the other bubble teams. I haven't looked at the scenarios in detail myself, but it seems like from what I've read, Liberty has a pretty good shot.

[soccerguy315]

Being at 16 in all three polls right now, and theoretically at 17 in the GPI, what are the chances Liberty can legitimately make a claim, in the polls, that they are worthy of that 16th slot? I'm not looking for your opinion on where they should be ranked. I'm talking about given the evidence we have in front of us, that I've laid out, what are the chances Liberty gets in?

obviously if you are #16 in the polls you can make an argument that you are indeed the 16th best team.

unfortunately, I have no idea how that translates into actually making the playoffs (re: the committee).

[Hoyadestroya85]

Just saying, that if the committee decides that an undefeated Montana team is worthy of a top 2 seed (and certainly the $$$ will play into that very prominently), then that means that either nova or SIU would be the odd one left out. Considering that SIU is the #1 team in 2 of the 3 human polls (and ahead of nova in all 3), and considering that the GPI is not officially used as a determinant of seeds (I think the missive that came out only inferred that the committee would have the GPI available as a potential means of determining how to fill out the at large field - they did not mention they would use it to create seedings), then nova could very easily be the odd one left to take the #3 seed.

SIU has a history of hosting, and nova playoff crowds would likely be abysmal, so they have that going for them. And then, SIU does have the advantage that they have not lost to an FCS team all year. nova does have an FCS loss. And that FCS loss looks even worse if UNH loses to W&M this week.

But it's far from a sure thing that nova is going to get a top 2 seed. Certainly possible, but far from a lock.

Villanova has a history of hosting as well.. Not to mention we drew decently at the last playoff game against Colgate (way better than the listed attendance, I'm convinced they pulled that number out of a hat) If we were to host Lafayette in the first round, we would get a good crowd. The first round for Villanova is tough as there are very few students who are within two hours of the school. A second round home game at Villanova especially against an attractive opponent could bring an Ok crowd. As far as I know, (and I know SIU Football) SIU doesn't draw much better than Villanova and they have a bigger stadium (a half empty 17,000 seat stadium looks worse than a 3/4 full 12,000 seat stadium.) It may not matter though because even if Villanova does get a top 2 seed, I have a bad feeling that we'll be handed a second round matchup against Appy or Richmond.

[SuperJon]

Stop throwing out facts. They don't want to hear them. This year's scenario stands alone far apart from last year.

Someone take Super's #'s and answer the question. Judge it on this year.

What was the point of this post? Everyone was talking about what I asked and you go and start throwing stones.

[ToTheLeft]

Don't worry about their ranking. Liberty is at the mercy of what happens in the Southland, Big Sky and Patriot and how they stack up h2h against the other bubble teams. I haven't looked at the scenarios in detail myself, but it seems like from what I've read, Liberty has a pretty good shot.

If the committee uses the GPI, tho, wouldn't the scenario SJ described show that we DO stack up against them? I mean, this isn't a question of "well we need to look at the resumes". The GPI is a tool the committee uses, and we could wind up as high as the 15th or 14th best eligible team.

[knucklehead]

What was the point of this post? Everyone was talking about what I asked and you go and start throwing stones.

The trash talk started on the very next post after yours, and the next one. Sorry xbowx

[SuperJon]

That wasn't trash talk. Just because they don't think we'll get in doesn't mean it's trash talk. I asked for any opinion as long as they had something to back it up or could intelligently make their point.

[GannonFan]

Villanova has a history of hosting as well.. Not to mention we drew decently at the last playoff game against Colgate (way better than the listed attendance, I'm convinced they pulled that number out of a hat) If we were to host Lafayette in the first round, we would get a good crowd. The first round for Villanova is tough as there are very few students who are within two hours of the school. A second round home game at Villanova especially against an attractive opponent could bring an Ok crowd. As far as I know, (and I know SIU Football) SIU doesn't draw much better than Villanova and they have a bigger stadium (a half empty 17,000 seat stadium looks worse than a 3/4 full 12,000 seat stadium.) It may not matter though because even if Villanova does get a top 2 seed, I have a bad feeling that we'll be handed a second round matchup against Appy or Richmond.


nova's last 3 home playoff games attendance:

2008 First Round (Colgate): 4,489
2002 First Round (Furman): 3,031
2002 Quarterfinals (Fordham): 4,351

Those numbers aren't going to knock anyone's socks off. And everybody underreports come playoff time, so trying to gloss over last year's numbers doesn't hold water.

As for who you play in the quarterfinals (second round), it's hard to complain that you'll get a good team like Richmond or Appy St - there's only 7 other teams left at that point, you're going to be playing somebody pretty decent by that time, barring an upset.

[Native]

As much as I used the GPI in my argument, I really don't like having UNI ahead of SDSU. UNI's loss to SDSU should put them behind them, even if SDSU's loss to CP was questionable, and UNI's loss to Iowa was good.

Me too, especially with zero top 25 wins for UNI.

[Native]

nova's last 3 home playoff games attendance:

2008 First Round (Colgate): 4,489
2002 First Round (Furman): 3,031
2002 Quarterfinals (Fordham): 4,351

Those numbers aren't going to knock anyone's socks off. And everybody underreports come playoff time, so trying to gloss over last year's numbers doesn't hold water.

As for who you play in the quarterfinals (second round), it's hard to complain that you'll get a good team like Richmond or Appy St - there's only 7 other teams left at that point, you're going to be playing somebody pretty decent by that time, barring an upset.

There are about a half dozen great teams at the top, and another dozen or more very good teams after that. In my view the quarter finals could still provide relatively easy matchups for the top two seeds, depending on how seeding and regionalization shape the brackets.

[Skjellyfetti]

If the committee uses the GPI, tho, wouldn't the scenario SJ described show that we DO stack up against them? I mean, this isn't a question of "well we need to look at the resumes". The GPI is a tool the committee uses, and we could wind up as high as the 15th or 14th best eligible team.

I can't recall for sure... but, I believe Liberty was top 16 in the GPI last year. (I can't find the final GPI of the regular season in 2008... if someone can find it, please post).

I think y'all have a much better chance this year since you beat Lafayette and creamed Presby... but, I'm not sure if being in the top 16 in the GPI is much of a guarantee.

[Hoyadestroya85]

nova's last 3 home playoff games attendance:

2008 First Round (Colgate): 4,489
2002 First Round (Furman): 3,031
2002 Quarterfinals (Fordham): 4,351

Those numbers aren't going to knock anyone's socks off. And everybody underreports come playoff time, so trying to gloss over last year's numbers doesn't hold water.

As for who you play in the quarterfinals (second round), it's hard to complain that you'll get a good team like Richmond or Appy St - there's only 7 other teams left at that point, you're going to be playing somebody pretty decent by that time, barring an upset.
All I'm saying is that there were at least 8,000 people at the game last year.. Not everyone underreports to make the official number 50 percent of the actual attendance.

[GannonFan]

All I'm saying is that there were at least 8,000 people at the game last year.. Not everyone underreports to make the official number 50 percent of the real attendance.

Eh, UD's reported attendances at 14k for playoff games when people swore there were more than 20k. Montana's had games at 15k when those people swore the place was close to sold out (maybe 23k at the time). It's a standard tune at playoff time and I don't see why those nova numbers should be considered atypical.

[WMTribe90]

I think Liberty gets in before a second PL or MEAC team. For Liberty it will depend on what happens in the Southland and Big Sky conferences. GPI and human polls will have Liberty squarely on the bubble if youwin out. It will come down to a direct comparison with a bubble team from the Southland and/or Big Sky team(s) with seven DI wins. I'd give Liberty a fighting chance at this point (30%) of making the field.

[Hoyadestroya85]

Well proportionately it is significant, 4,000 people at Villanova stadium makes it look like a HS Stadium when a JV team is playing. I just think Villanova would rather have us play all of our games on the road. Villanova being good at football is not a welcome phenomenon by some of the higher ups.

[GannonFan]

Well proportionately it is significant, 4,000 people at Villanova stadium makes it look like a HS Stadium when a JV team is playing. I just think Villanova would rather have us play all of our games on the road. Villanova being good at football is not a welcome phenomenon by some of the higher ups.

Well, let me know which high school team's JV team is pulling in 4k for a game. I assume I need to go all the way to Texas for that! And come on, and this isn't even smack, nova's stadium always looks a bit barish, outside of the really well attended UD games. With the camera on the home side, you're often treated to wide swaths of empty seats on the other side. The W&M game had 8217 by the box score yet the stands behind W&M were desolate.

As for the higher ups, why would they be worried about football being good at nova? Basketball will always rule the roost and it's not like nova football is in danger of outgrowing their stadium any time soon. What do they have to be concerned about?

[Chi Panther]

Me too, especially with zero top 25 wins for UNI.

That's why we have a playoff...its not the BCS.....xthumbsupx

[Hoyadestroya85]

Well, let me know which high school team's JV team is pulling in 4k for a game. I assume I need to go all the way to Texas for that! And come on, and this isn't even smack, nova's stadium always looks a bit barish, outside of the really well attended UD games. With the camera on the home side, you're often treated to wide swaths of empty seats on the other side. The W&M game had 8217 by the box score yet the stands behind W&M were desolate.

As for the higher ups, why would they be worried about football being good at nova? Basketball will always rule the roost and it's not like nova football is in danger of outgrowing their stadium any time soon. What do they have to be concerned about?

There's a widespread augustinian sentiment against football for one reason or another.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Villanova has a history of hosting as well.. Not to mention we drew decently at the last playoff game against Colgate (way better than the listed attendance, I'm convinced they pulled that number out of a hat) If we were to host Lafayette in the first round, we would get a good crowd. The first round for Villanova is tough as there are very few students who are within two hours of the school. A second round home game at Villanova especially against an attractive opponent could bring an Ok crowd. As far as I know, (and I know SIU Football) SIU doesn't draw much better than Villanova and they have a bigger stadium (a half empty 17,000 seat stadium looks worse than a 3/4 full 12,000 seat stadium.) It may not matter though because even if Villanova does get a top 2 seed, I have a bad feeling that we'll be handed a second round matchup against Appy or Richmond.

Congrats on your narrow win Saturday. Now enjoy the spotlight, scrutiny and justifications!

Ahhhh feels good...

[TribeGuy09]

All I'm saying is that there were at least 8,000 people at the game last year.. Not everyone underreports to make the official number 50 percent of the actual attendance.

A whole 8,000! xeekx

xcoffeex

[WrenFGun]

Me too, especially with zero top 25 wins for UNI.

xthumbsupx

I still THINK UNI is a pretty good team, though. I think they would be competitive with anyone in the playoffs, and if they get to the 8 W mark, I don't see why they won't be in given the weak quality of selectable teams.

[Hoyadestroya85]

Congrats on your narrow win Saturday. Now enjoy the spotlight, scrutiny and justifications!

Ahhhh feels good...

I will :p

[jlcharles]

nova's last 3 home playoff games attendance:

2008 First Round (Colgate): 4,489
2002 First Round (Furman): 3,031
2002 Quarterfinals (Fordham): 4,351



To be fair, and I was at all three games, the first round games will not be well attended with the students gone and most not being from the area. If I recall correctly, the second round game in 2002, it had snowed the day before and was about 10-15 degrees outside. I chose to sit in the snow covered seats at the end of the stadium rather than in the shaded seats I had at the 50 yard line. It shouldn't matter for a playoff game, but any excuse not to go to a game will keep them away.

I really think we could draw better (not great, but better) if the athletic department would do at least a little promotion of the football team. They're already tied in with 950ESPN/97.5 the fanatic in Philly. Ticket giveaways, contests, something, anything. But what do we expect with a Saint Joe's (PA) alum as the AD? He's incompetent at promoting the basketball team too, but at least they don't need the promotion.

[Hoyadestroya85]

To be fair, and I was at all three games, the first round games will not be well attended with the students gone and most not being from the area. If I recall correctly, the second round game in 2002, it had snowed the day before and was about 10-15 degrees outside. I chose to sit in the snow covered seats at the end of the stadium rather than in the shaded seats I had at the 50 yard line. It shouldn't matter for a playoff game, but any excuse not to go to a game will keep them away.

I really think we could draw better (not great, but better) if the athletic department would do at least a little promotion of the football team. They're already tied in with 950ESPN/97.5 the fanatic in Philly. Ticket giveaways, contests, something, anything. But what do we expect with a Saint Joe's (PA) alum as the AD? He's incompetent at promoting the basketball team too, but at least they don't need the promotion.

Exactly, the lack of a localized student and alumni base, poor promotion, relatively small enrollment and the unwillingness of the Philadelphia media to write more than a once a week middle page story about us no matter how well we're doing are what hurt Villanova the most. If Villanova was the only gig in town a la Delaware or Montana Football, we could draw more non alumni to our games but we have to compete with the Eagles, Phillies, Flyers and when they're good.. The Sixers (not to mention Penn State.) I'm going to say we have consistently drawn 800-1000 students a game this season with the exception of Rhode Island where it was just a miserably *****ty day. Any way you stack it up, if every school had 12, to 15 percent of their students at the game they'd be happy. What really needs to be done is promote it with the locals and to try to lure some alumni and previously uninterested locals in.

[ToTheLeft]

xthumbsupx

I still THINK UNI is a pretty good team, though. I think they would be competitive with anyone in the playoffs, and if they get to the 8 W mark, I don't see why they won't be in given the weak quality of selectable teams.

I just want to know how this passes as acceptable logic to get a team in, especially if UNI gets in and LU doesn't, LU having as many wins, and one of those wins being over a superior opponent to anyone UNI had played.

I mean, maybe LU isn't the best example, maybe UMass would be better, but the point stands. being a good program and not losing too many games isn't really part of the criteria, is it? I mean, I KNOW UNI is a good team, but that doesn't mean they need to be thrown a bone and gifted into the playoffs. They haven't beaten anyone, and are living off of a close loss to an overrated FBS.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I just want to know how this passes as acceptable logic to get a team in, especially if UNI gets in and LU doesn't, LU having as many wins, and one of those wins being over a superior opponent to anyone UNI had played.

I mean, maybe LU isn't the best example, maybe UMass would be better, but the point stands. being a good program and not losing too many games isn't really part of the criteria, is it? I mean, I KNOW UNI is a good team, but that doesn't mean they need to be thrown a bone and gifted into the playoffs. They haven't beaten anyone, and are living off of a close loss to an overrated FBS.

MVFC is deemed to be significantly stronger conference than the Big South. UNI gets credit for better in conference wins than Liberty does. IMHO, UNI at 8-3 is a lock to be chosen before Liberty, a second Patriot, a second MEAC, a second OVC, etc. To me there is no comparison of the resumes. I seriously doubt that Liberty would be 8-3 playing UNI's schedule. I think UNI would be 10-1 playing Liberty's schedule. I'm assuming that JMU would have come to the UNI Dome and I think the Panthers win that game.

Who cares if Iowa is over-rated, it's immaterial. They are a FBS team from a BCS league that is still a significantly better team than the vast majority of FCS teams, probably all of them. That was as good of a loss as one could have. And for argument sake, Iowa is at least as good as West Virginia. So, I give UNI an advantage in their FBS game over Liberty with their FBS game.

And I know I don't agree with you that Lafayette is a superior opponent to anyone UNI has defeated. I'll take a mid tier MVFC team over a top Patriot team any day regardless of what the AGS poll says.

I asked this question before and didn't get an answer. You (LU) had someone drop you and ended up scheduling a D-II. Maine was really hurting for games, had two openings at one time IIRC. They ended up scheduling a D-II from Minnesota! Why didn't you guys find a way to schedule a game? I'd have thought that Liberty would go out of their way to get that type of game on their schedule. xconfusedx Even if you had to do a two for one or just go to Orono for some money (and Maine had money after getting dumped by FSU and picked up by Syracuse), wouldn't it have been worth it rather than sitting where you are today with that D-II on your resume? I'm sorry, if you really want to get the committee's attention, you have to schedule up throughout your OOC when you're in a lower ranked league. xpeacex And I'm not picking on Liberty because the Patriot, Pioneer, MEAC, etc. are just as guilty of this. xtwocentsx

[SuperJon]

There are a lot of reasons to answer your question:

a) Dates didn't line up
b) Locations didn't line up
c) Future schedules didn't line up (I doubt either would accept without a home and home)
d) Money didn't line up

[UNH Fanboi]

I just want to know how this passes as acceptable logic to get a team in, especially if UNI gets in and LU doesn't, LU having as many wins, and one of those wins being over a superior opponent to anyone UNI had played.

I mean, maybe LU isn't the best example, maybe UMass would be better, but the point stands. being a good program and not losing too many games isn't really part of the criteria, is it? I mean, I KNOW UNI is a good team, but that doesn't mean they need to be thrown a bone and gifted into the playoffs. They haven't beaten anyone, and are living off of a close loss to an overrated FBS.

Pretty much all computer ranking systems have UNI ranked above Liberty, and they are supposedly not susceptible to being biased because of UNI's reputation.

Anyway, the comparison between UNI and Liberty goes like this:

UNI has beaten 6 crappy teams. They've lost to 3 really good teams.

Liberty has beaten 6 really crappy teams and 1 pretty good team. They've lost to one really good team and one mediocre team.

UNI is slightly ahead of Liberty in many human and computer polls because:
(a) UNI's 6 crappy wins are on average better than Liberty's even crappier 6 wins,
(b) Liberty has a loss to a mediocre team and UNI doesn't, and
(c) extrapolating from UNI's close losses against good teams and blowouts of crappy teams, they probably would have beaten BOTH JMU and Laffy.

Yes, Liberty has the "signature win" that bubble teams like to point to when arguing for a playoff spot, but that alone does not necessarily put them ahead of UNI.

I'm not saying I totally agree with all of that, so don't jump all over me, but that is the argument.

[Schfourteenteen]

If UNI wins out they will have beaten 4 top 50 teams. Liberty only 2. Add to that the number of 80+ GPI teams Liberty beat and you got a inferior resume, even if they have the best win.

[SuperJon]

If UNI wins out there's no question they're in.

[WileECoyote06]

I asked this question before and didn't get an answer. You (LU) had someone drop you and ended up scheduling a D-II. Maine was really hurting for games, had two openings at one time IIRC. They ended up scheduling a D-II from Minnesota! Why didn't you guys find a way to schedule a game? I'd have thought that Liberty would go out of their way to get that type of game on their schedule. xconfusedx Even if you had to do a two for one or just go to Orono for some money (and Maine had money after getting dumped by FSU and picked up by Syracuse), wouldn't it have been worth it rather than sitting where you are today with that D-II on your resume? I'm sorry, if you really want to get the committee's attention, you have to schedule up throughout your OOC when you're in a lower ranked league. xpeacex And I'm not picking on Liberty because the Patriot, Pioneer, MEAC, etc. are just as guilty of this. xtwocentsx

It's really not that simple. And there is nothing to be 'guilty of'. Schedules are made for some teams years in advance.

[caribbeanhen]

7 of the top 22 from the CAA, got boring around here with the demise of the Southern Conf

what happened to yawl?

[93henfan]

Exactly, the lack of a localized student and alumni base, poor promotion, relatively small enrollment and the unwillingness of the Philadelphia media to write more than a once a week middle page story about us no matter how well we're doing are what hurt Villanova the most. If Villanova was the only gig in town a la Delaware or Montana Football, we could draw more non alumni to our games but we have to compete with the Eagles, Phillies, Flyers and when they're good.. The Sixers (not to mention Penn State.) I'm going to say we have consistently drawn 800-1000 students a game this season with the exception of Rhode Island where it was just a miserably *****ty day. Any way you stack it up, if every school had 12, to 15 percent of their students at the game they'd be happy. What really needs to be done is promote it with the locals and to try to lure some alumni and previously uninterested locals in.

Are you saying the Hens don't have to compete with the Philly market too? Hell, they have to compete with both the Philly and Baltimore/DC markets. Montana, I agree, is the only gig in town. Not Delaware. There are nineteen teams from the NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL within a two and a half hour drive of The Tub. The Philly sports complex is exactly 40 miles from The Tub. The Baltimore sports complex is 60 miles away, and a certain alum happens to be the franchise QB down there. Regarding alumni, about 70% of the students are not from Delaware. I'm not seeing where our situation is much different from Nova, other than we've had far more success over the years than you have.

[caribbeanhen]

Are you saying the Hens don't have to compete with the Philly market too? Hell, they have to compete with both the Philly and Baltimore/DC markets. Montana, I agree, is the only gig in town. Not Delaware. There are nineteen teams from the NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL within a two and a half hour drive of The Tub. The Philly sports complex is exactly 40 miles from The Tub. Regarding alumni, about 70% of the students are not from Delaware. I'm not seeing where our situation is much different from Nova, other than we've had far more success over the years than they have.

it's all in the name
Delaware is the only gig in Delaware and thats more important than driving distances to many I am afraid

[93henfan]

it's all in the name
Delaware is the only gig in Delaware and thats more important than driving distances to many I am afraid

BS! My neighbors have season tickets to the Eagles. They couldn't care less about the Hens. Most of the people around these parts are sporting gear for either Phillies, Eagles, Redskins, Ravens, or Orioles. Support for the Hens in this state is very low, outside the 11,000 or so season ticket holders and a smattering of students that still show up after the weather gets below 70 degrees. I can't speak for everyone, but I think most sports fans in this state affiliate with Philly, Baltimore, or Washington (in that order) and most don't give two terds about the Hens. The driving distances are minimal. It takes me an hour to get to The Tub or an hour and ten minutes to get to The Linc. That's negligible.

[Chi Panther]

I just want to know how this passes as acceptable logic to get a team in, especially if UNI gets in and LU doesn't, LU having as many wins, and one of those wins being over a superior opponent to anyone UNI had played.

I mean, maybe LU isn't the best example, maybe UMass would be better, but the point stands. being a good program and not losing too many games isn't really part of the criteria, is it? I mean, I KNOW UNI is a good team, but that doesn't mean they need to be thrown a bone and gifted into the playoffs. They haven't beaten anyone, and are living off of a close loss to an overrated FBS.

Lets see how this poll ends.....

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66047

[srgrizizen]

Eh, UD's reported attendances at 14k for playoff games when people swore there were more than 20k. Montana's had games at 15k when those people swore the place was close to sold out (maybe 23k at the time). It's a standard tune at playoff time and I don't see why those nova numbers should be considered atypical.

GannonFan, forgive me if I am being obtuse, but why do teams underreport attendance in the playoffs? Are they trying to hide gate receipts from the NCAA:)

[89Hen]

it's all in the name
Delaware is the only gig in Delaware and thats more important than driving distances to many I am afraid
Maybe you've been in San Juan too long, but when I got to Hens games there are TONS of Phillies and Eagles caps and shirts walking around. I grew up in Wilmington 20 miles from the Vet, which is closer than MANY Philly fans. We loved Blue Hen football, the Eagles, Flyers, Phillies... my family had tix to Delaware football and Phillies. xpeacex

[Hoyadestroya85]

Are you saying the Hens don't have to compete with the Philly market too? Hell, they have to compete with both the Philly and Baltimore/DC markets. Montana, I agree, is the only gig in town. Not Delaware. There are nineteen teams from the NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL within a two and a half hour drive of The Tub. The Philly sports complex is exactly 40 miles from The Tub. The Baltimore sports complex is 60 miles away, and a certain alum happens to be the franchise QB down there. Regarding alumni, about 70% of the students are not from Delaware. I'm not seeing where our situation is much different from Nova, other than we've had far more success over the years than you have.

Wouldn't you agree though that the majority of UD's alumni base is within Delaware, Maryland, Pennsylvania and Southern NJ within roughly an hour or so of Newark?

[93henfan]

Wouldn't you agree though that the majority of UD's alumni base is within Delaware, Maryland, Pennsylvania and Southern NJ within roughly an hour or so of Newark?

You have the states right, but the "hour or so" would be questionable. We have a ton of alums in North Jersey, NYC, Long Island, DC/NoVA, and Sussex County DE, which would all be beyond that distance. I bet our (UD and Nova) alumni distributions are remarkable similar, with you guys having a slight skew toward your home state and the same with ours.

[MacThor]

7 of the top 22 from the CAA, got boring around here with the demise of the Southern Conf

what happened to yawl?

It's "Y'all." Sheesh....go join the CAA North already. ;)

[89Hen]

You have the states right, but the "hour or so" would be questionable. We have a ton of alums in North Jersey, NYC, Long Island, DC/NoVA, and Sussex County DE, which would all be beyond that distance. I bet our (UD and Nova) alumni distributions are remarkable similar, with you guys having a slight skew toward your home state and the same with ours.
What he said... except I would put Nova's footprint as larger.

[MacThor]

Meanwhile, in Richmond, we can't even hang on to minor league baseball and hockey teams. So while we may be the "only game in town" our tiny student body, expat alumni and non-sports-supporting populace make it tough to fill the stands.

[JMUNJ08]

Both Nova and UD compete with the Philly market. However, UD has a larger student population/alumni base than Nova and more of a prestigious football history. That equals more seats being filled. At our level, you are less likely to attract the casual fan. The size of your school and competitiveness matter more.

[Hoyadestroya85]

Villanova is Long Island, Northern New Jersey, Connecticut and Massachusetts with a growing profile in California and Ohio.

[GannonFan]

Both Nova and UD compete with the Philly market. However, UD has a larger student population/alumni base than Nova and more of a prestigious football history. That equals more seats being filled. At our level, you are less likely to attract the casual fan. The size of your school and competitiveness matter more.

The thing is, UD even had bigger crowds back in the '70's when UD was DII and nova was DI. And back then, UD was still a pretty small school - it wasn't until the early 80's that the size of the school increased - back then UD was probably under 10,000 for the entire student body (now it is just over 20k counting grad students).

For whatever reason, nova football has never been a big draw up there, and it's hard to argue with history to say that it ever will be. nova competes in the exact same marketplace that UD does (although you can easily argue UD competes against an even larger one when you consider the proximity to Baltimore/DC and the Univ of Maryland) but the two have diametrically opposed fanbases in terms of size, and always have. But it's reality.

[UNH Fanboi]

One big difference is that Delaware is a state school with the name of it's state in the title. It's a lot easier for casual, local fans to rally around their state's flagship school because the state school is seen as the local college team, whereas a private school is perceived as a school populated by rich, snobby outsiders.

Someone who is from Pennsylvania and roots for Penn St even though they didn't go there is seen as normal. But rooting for a local private school that you didn't attend just seems weird. You thinks locals in New Haven line up for the Harvard-Yale game? Of course not.

I bet there are very few private schools that have big local support from non-alumns other than the big frontrunner schools like Duke or Miami back in the 80s and 90s. And even then, I think state schools or local pro teams are much more popular. Most people I know from NC are rabid UNC fans unless they went to Duke.

[Hoyadestroya85]

One big difference is that Delaware is a state school with the name of it's state in the title. It's a lot easier for casual, local fans to rally around their state's flagship school because the state school is seen as the local college team, whereas a private school is perceived as a school populated by rich, snobby outsiders.

Someone who is from Pennsylvania and roots for Penn St even though they didn't go there is seen as normal. But rooting for a local private school that you didn't attend just seems weird. You thinks locals in New Haven line up for the Harvard-Yale game? Of course not.

I bet there are very few private schools that have big local support from non-alumns other than the big frontrunner schools like Duke or Miami back in the 80s and 90s. And even then, I think state schools or local pro teams are much more popular. Most people I know from NC are rabid UNC fans unless they went to Duke.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[93henfan]

I disagree. Delaware has very little support from non-alumni Delawareans. The state has less than a million people as well.

Does UNH draw heavily as a state flagship school? Rhode Island? Maine?

What draws people is national profile. Connecticut is the prime example of this. They had attendance similar to UNH, URI, and Maine when they were Yankee/A-10. Move up to the Big East and boom, 40,000 per game.

The Big East basketball program draws well at Nova. The CAA football program doesn't. Surprise.

[Eight Legger]

We've had this discussion on the UR boards over and over again. I think Villanova and UR are perhaps two of the most similar schools in the nation when it comes to this issue. Both are smaller private schools in urban markets that have other larger, public schools and/or pro teams to compete with.

In our case, a large percentage of the people who live in Metro Richmond are college-educated -- just not UR grads. That means our ability to attract casual fans is not too great, since most people are fans and grads of VCU, Va. Tech, UVA, JMU, George Mason, etc. I suspect it is similar in Philly.

In regions without as high a population of college grads, it's easier to attract casual fans who identify with the local school.

[UNH Fanboi]

I disagree. Delaware has very little support from non-alumni Delawareans. The state has less than a million people as well.

Does UNH draw heavily as a state flagship school? Rhode Island? Maine?

What draws people is national profile. Connecticut is the prime example of this. They had attendance like the UNH, URI, and Maine when they were Yankee/A-10. Move up to the Big East and boom, 40,000 per game.

The Big East basketball program draws well at Nova. The CAA football program doesn't.

I'm not saying that being a state school guarantees a lot of local support, but rather that being a private school is definitely a big disadvantage when it comes to getting local support. UNH and Maine's biggest problems are (a) sparse population, (b) crappy facilities, and (c) very little tradition.

Good fan support in the past breeds good fan support in the present and future. Casual fans, whether they be students, alums or locals, are more likely to have fun at a game attended by 15,000 people than one with 4,000 people. It's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The question is how you get to 15,000 fans in the first place, and that's not easy.

There are a lot of factors at play when it comes to attendance, so I don't want to overemphasize the local support aspect, but it is certainly is a factor.

[GannonFan]

One big difference is that Delaware is a state school with the name of it's state in the title. It's a lot easier for casual, local fans to rally around their state's flagship school because the state school is seen as the local college team, whereas a private school is perceived as a school populated by rich, snobby outsiders.

Someone who is from Pennsylvania and roots for Penn St even though they didn't go there is seen as normal. But rooting for a local private school that you didn't attend just seems weird. You thinks locals in New Haven line up for the Harvard-Yale game? Of course not.

I bet there are very few private schools that have big local support from non-alumns other than the big frontrunner schools like Duke or Miami back in the 80s and 90s. And even then, I think state schools or local pro teams are much more popular. Most people I know from NC are rabid UNC fans unless they went to Duke.


Couldn't have said it better myself.

That's just absolutely silly. The only reason that Delaware draws as well as they do is because they are named after the state? So what's the deal with Delaware State? Same exact market, named after the state they are located in, and they do 1/10 of the attendance that Delaware does.


I disagree. Delaware has very little support from non-alumni Delawareans. The state has less than a million people as well.

Does UNH draw heavily as a state flagship school? Rhode Island? Maine?

What draws people is national profile. Connecticut is the prime example of this. They had attendance similar to UNH, URI, and Maine when they were Yankee/A-10. Move up to the Big East and boom, 40,000 per game.

The Big East basketball program draws well at Nova. The CAA football program doesn't. Surprise.

Like my fellow Hen brethren has said, UD is not really supported in great numbers by non-alumni Delawareans. It's not like the local populace in Newark is what pumps up the number. People were initially drawn to Delaware football because 1)it was close by, even for people in PA, NJ, and MD 2) because Delaware football has been pretty successful since the late 1940's and 3) because it's a great place to go and watch football and spend a Saturday afternoon. And it's that last thing that has kept UD's attendance numbers up for decades now. People like coming to Delaware football games. They win a lot, it's a great atmosphere, and there's not a bad seat in the house. Not because they happen to be named after a state, especially considering that the vast majority of the fanbase doesn't even reside in that state.

And to take the other point - nova basketball has thrived for decades. Why not football? The marketplace is even more competitive for basketball. Probably, for the same reason why UD football thrives - because they win a lot and because it's fun to be there. Going to a nova football game has not always been that way. They win, but aren't nearly as successful, and it's not a lot of fun to watch a game there.

[jlcharles]

Villanova is a basketball school. Period. The administration is pro-basketball and could give two craps how the football team does. The students support the team more now than they did 10 years ago, but it's still not great.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the effects of the Big Five. I think it's going to be even harder for us to draw the casual fan since so many residents in the area are alumni/fans of the other schools (Penn, Temple, St. Joe's (PA), and La Salle. I'll even throw in the other city school, Drexel, for good measure.) and as such have a general distaste for all things Villanova.

[89Hen]

Like my fellow Hen brethren has said, UD is not really supported in great numbers by non-alumni Delawareans. It's not like the local populace in Newark is what pumps up the number.
Shoot, we even have separate bars in the Deer Park for UD folk and local folk (at least we did when I was there). xnodx

[GannonFan]

Villanova is a basketball school. Period. The administration is pro-basketball and could give two craps how the football team does. The students support the team more now than they did 10 years ago, but it's still not great.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the effects of the Big Five. I think it's going to be even harder for us to draw the casual fan since so many residents in the area are alumni/fans of the other schools (Penn, Temple, St. Joe's (PA), and La Salle. I'll even throw in the other city school, Drexel, for good measure.) and as such have a general distaste for all things Villanova.

nova was always the "other" school in the Big 5 just because they were the only one not actually in the city. They had that going against them, always. Plus, they didn't make any friends when they blew up the Big 5 as well. People will go see them play basketball, especially when they bring in national teams. But you're right, there is a very real anti-villanova vibe in many circles in and around Philly.

[jlcharles]

nova was always the "other" school in the Big 5 just because they were the only one not actually in the city. They had that going against them, always. Plus, they didn't make any friends when they blew up the Big 5 as well. People will go see them play basketball, especially when they bring in national teams. But you're right, there is a very real anti-villanova vibe in many circles in and around Philly.

Which is funny, because John Chaney had more than a little to do with the Big 5 being shelved, but he got a pass.

[GannonFan]

Which is funny, because John Chaney had more than a little to do with the Big 5 being shelved, but he got a pass.

People don't focus on secondary causes - they tend to look at who actually did break it up. When it comes down to it, the person who turns out the light is the person who flips the switch. nova ultimately flipped the switch on the Big 5, hence the blame. xnodx

[wideright82]

The reason the Villanova fan base sucks is because students cannot relate to the teams we play.

My bet would be if we played Georgetown at home it would be our biggest crowd of the year and for no other reason than people at nova hate them. Its all about recognition, not program quality, and not location. When someone says "we are playing Richmond" most students probably equate Richmond football to Richmond basketball, and that is not a good thing to draw a crowd at a school dominated by its basketball team. xthumbsupx




The End.

[jlcharles]

We got garbage attendance when we played teams with name recognition before we dropped football. It's a basketball school and the administration could give two craps about the players, the sport, or the fans.

[GannonFan]

The reason the Villanova fan base sucks is because students cannot relate to the teams we play.

My bet would be if we played Georgetown at home it would be our biggest crowd of the year and for no other reason than people at nova hate them. Its all about recognition, not program quality, and not location. When someone says "we are playing Richmond" most students probably equate Richmond football to Richmond basketball, and that is not a good thing to draw a crowd at a school dominated by its basketball team. xthumbsupx




The End.


We got garbage attendance when we played teams with name recognition before we dropped football. It's a basketball school and the administration could give two craps about the players, the sport, or the fans.

jcharles is right. Back when nova was playing Boston College and West Virginia and Maryland and Clemson and Rutgers and Syracuse and Navy (all teams nova played in the last 5 years of their program in the late 70's/early 80's) the fanbase was so enamored with those "names" that the school dropped football and didn't pick it back up for another half decade. There wasn't a fanbase when nova was playing in the top level of football and playing name teams - not sure how you can blame the current lack of a fanbase on the names of the teams you're playing now. xcoffeex

[wideright82]

jcharles is right. Back when nova was playing Boston College and West Virginia and Maryland and Clemson and Rutgers and Syracuse and Navy (all teams nova played in the last 5 years of their program in the late 70's/early 80's) the fanbase was so enamored with those "names" that the school dropped football and didn't pick it back up for another half decade. There wasn't a fanbase when nova was playing in the top level of football and playing name teams - not sure how you can blame the current lack of a fanbase on the names of the teams you're playing now. xcoffeex



Maybe because you didn't go to Villanova in the past 5 years and are relating the fan base now to a fan base 30 years ago which must carry some weight because...... well I guess just the fact you keep saying it is fact enough xcoffeex


If you actually believe that the student population and villanova fanbase wouldn't come out to support a moderately successful football team in the Big East then fine, there is no convincing you. Your historical references and hypothesizing clearly holds more weight than my first hand experience with the program, the students, and the fan base in the last 5 years.xthumbsupx





**Please take note I also don't think this will ever happen and we will be stuck in mediocre attendance purgatory for years to come**

[GannonFan]

Maybe because you didn't go to Villanova in the past 5 years and are relating the fan base now to a fan base 30 years ago which must carry some weight because...... well I guess just the fact you keep saying it is fact enough xcoffeex


If you actually believe that the student population and villanova fanbase wouldn't come out to support a moderately successful football team in the Big East then fine, there is no convincing you. Your historical references and hypothesizing clearly holds more weight than my first hand experience with the program, the students, and the fan base in the last 5 years.xthumbsupx





**Please take note I also don't think this will ever happen and we will be stuck in mediocre attendance purgatory for years to come**

Well, I did marry a mid 90's nova grad, have lived in the area my whole life, and have probably attended more nova football and basketball games than you, so yes, completely discount my opinion on the matter - nothing to see here! xlolx

[WileECoyote06]

One big difference is that Delaware is a state school with the name of it's state in the title. It's a lot easier for casual, local fans to rally around their state's flagship school because the state school is seen as the local college team, whereas a private school is perceived as a school populated by rich, snobby outsiders.

Someone who is from Pennsylvania and roots for Penn St even though they didn't go there is seen as normal. But rooting for a local private school that you didn't attend just seems weird. You thinks locals in New Haven line up for the Harvard-Yale game? Of course not.

I bet there are very few private schools that have big local support from non-alumns other than the big frontrunner schools like Duke or Miami back in the 80s and 90s. And even then, I think state schools or local pro teams are much more popular. Most people I know from NC are rabid UNC fans unless they went to Duke.

Cuz the Pukes are snobbish out-of-staters who don't interact with the homegrowns. . xthumbsupx xsmiley_wix

[Hoyadestroya85]

The fact is that the Big 5 destroyed itself and Rollie gets a bad rap for it. Most of the disdain toward Villanova in the local area is based on either jealousy or an inferiority complex (see: St. Joe's, Temple.)

[wideright82]

Well, I did marry a mid 90's nova grad, have lived in the area my whole life, and have probably attended more nova football and basketball games than you, so yes, completely discount my opinion on the matter - nothing to see here! xlolx


I'm not discounting your opinion. I'm discounting the logical progression you are using to get to your answer. Using examples from the 70's do not equate to what will happen now, neither will marrying a nova grad, or attending games. I WENT to Villanova, PLAYED for Villanova, and HEARD what CURRENT Villanova students were saying. So like you said... nothing to see here. xthumbsupx

[GannonFan]

The fact is that the Big 5 destroyed itself and Rollie gets a bad rap for it. Most of the disdain toward Villanova in the local area is based on either jealousy or an inferiority complex (see: St. Joe's, Temple.)

And I'm sure the idea by many nova people that it's just jealousy or inferiority complex has nothing to do with other's perceptions of nova. xlolx

[GannonFan]

I'm not discounting your opinion. I'm discounting the logical progression you are using to get to your answer. Using examples from the 70's do not equate to what will happen now, neither will marrying a nova grad, or attending games. I WENT to Villanova, PLAYED for Villanova, and HEARD what CURRENT Villanova students were saying. So like you said... nothing to see here. xthumbsupx

And the funny thing is, your viewpoint would be starkly different if you saw the nova fanbase prior to Jay Wright coming to nova. Not sure if you go back that far. What happens when Jay Wright leaves, whenever that happens? Does the fanbase go back to the Steve Lappas days when even tickets at the Pavillion were easy to get?

[wideright82]

And I'm sure the idea by many nova people that it's just jealousy or inferiority complex has nothing to do with other's perceptions of nova. xlolx


xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx

[wideright82]

And the funny thing is, your viewpoint would be starkly different if you saw the nova fanbase prior to Jay Wright coming to nova. Not sure if you go back that far. What happens when Jay Wright leaves, whenever that happens? Does the fanbase go back to the Steve Lappas days when even tickets at the Pavillion were easy to get?


Oh believe me I know exactly what you mean. Jay Wright has turned around the football attendance as well. An excellent question you ask, and I would have to say, based on the over all pretentious nature of Villanova, yes, when/if he leaves, so does the support.


However, knowing members of Jay's family and his friends personally, I know he is in love with Villanova, so I'm not sure how ready he will ever be to leave. Obviously, though, when money is involved, nothing is certain.

[Hoyadestroya85]

And the funny thing is, your viewpoint would be starkly different if you saw the nova fanbase prior to Jay Wright coming to nova. Not sure if you go back that far. What happens when Jay Wright leaves, whenever that happens? Does the fanbase go back to the Steve Lappas days when even tickets at the Pavillion were easy to get?

Tickets at the Pavillion have never been "easy" to get.. they were "easier" to get. And I guarantee you if delaware had a string of three 3-8 seasons you're telling me tickets to the Tub wouldn't be easier to get?

[93henfan]

Tickets at the Pavillion have never been "easy" to get.. they were "easier" to get. And I guarantee you if delaware had a string of three 3-8 seasons you're telling me tickets to the Tub wouldn't be easier to get?

Tickets to Delaware games have never been hard to get, save for the 2007 trip to Chatty. The stadium can hold 23,000 and there are only 11,000 season tickets. The most students that ever show up is about 5,000, and that's only in September. I can't ever remember a Delaware game selling out more than a week in advance. Maybe in the 70s or early 80s, but that was before my time.

[caribbeanhen]

Maybe you've been in San Juan too long, but when I got to Hens games there are TONS of Phillies and Eagles caps and shirts walking around. I grew up in Wilmington 20 miles from the Vet, which is closer than MANY Philly fans. We loved Blue Hen football, the Eagles, Flyers, Phillies... my family had tix to Delaware football and Phillies. xpeacex

In San Juan to long? probably, but the place sure can be fun
but not long enough to know that all those teams you talk about are not in the state of Delaware, of course you were wearing Phillies and Eagle shirts, your from NC county, the difference is you go across the border to PA and you wont see anybody that gives a ****e about Nova, drive across the border back to Delaware and all of the sudden you find Hens fans....the only game in town

[jlcharles]

I hate to agree with a Delaware fan, but GannonFan is right. We have a relatively small alumni base that's too spread out to support a move up and we'll have abysmal attendance if we were to move up. Just look at Temple, same geographic area, playing name teams, with a larger alumni base, at a basketball school. They got kicked out of the Big East for attendance problems.

You may not like it and I sure don't, but we are a basketball school.

[siuham]

I hate to agree with a Delaware fan, but GannonFan is right. We have a relatively small alumni base that's too spread out to support a move up and we'll have abysmal attendance if we were to move up. Just look at Temple, same geographic area, playing name teams, with a larger alumni base, at a basketball school. They got kicked out of the Big East for attendance problems.

You may not like it and I sure don't, but we are a basketball school.

It's okay, SIU is too.

[Catsfan2]

As a Nova alum from 40 years ago, and having had some involvement in fundraising, I'm sure the administration's infatuation with basketball goes back to the transforming effect of 1985 national championship. Applications more than tripled the next year, and have never declined, in fact they continued to increase. Selectivity of admissions went up, and the university graduated progressively more successful alumni who contributed more, and/or sent their kids there while paying the full freight. So, why move up if you're never going to win an FBS national championship, and at the FCS level even a national championship is unlikely to have any real effect on the overall operation (or reputation) of the university.

[Green26]

Eh, UD's reported attendances at 14k for playoff games when people swore there were more than 20k. Montana's had games at 15k when those people swore the place was close to sold out (maybe 23k at the time). It's a standard tune at playoff time and I don't see why those nova numbers should be considered atypical.


Gannon, it is absolutely not true that Montana has had playoff games at 15k and people swore it was a sell out. UM never sells out the early rounds of the playoffs, and never claims to. UM has not had a playoff game as low as 15 K for many year.

Quit making up your BS.

[Green26]

In my view, any team with a I-AA loss does not deserve a top 2 seed if there are top teams with no I-AA losses. It doesn't matter if Richmond, Villan. and UNH are very good, and lost to each other. You need to win all your I-AA games to get a top 2 seed ahead of undefeated teams.

[Eight Legger]

In my view, any team with a I-AA loss does not deserve a top 2 seed if there are top teams with no I-AA losses. It doesn't matter if Richmond, Villan. and UNH are very good, and lost to each other. You need to win all your I-AA games to get a top 2 seed ahead of undefeated teams.

Come on man. You just argued for Butler to get a top 2 seed. Would you be making the same argument if Montana wasn't undefeated? So when two of the top three teams play each other and they don't tie, you're going to drop one of them behind an undefeated team that hasn't played a top 15 team? Sorry, I'm not buying that.

[uofmman1122]

Come on man. You just argued for Butler to get a top 2 seed. Would you be making the same argument if Montana wasn't undefeated? So when two of the top three teams play each other and they don't tie, you're going to drop one of them behind an undefeated team that hasn't played a top 15 team? Sorry, I'm not buying that.Please. The fact that Butler is thrown around to trump SIU and Montana is laughable.

There are a ton of teams that would be undefeated if they had to play Butler's schedule, and I'm not exaggerating. (most, if not all of the top 25)

Butler being undefeated against FCS teams is nothing close to SIU and Montana being undefeated against FCS teams. If SIU and Montana win out, they deserve the #1 and #2 spots.

[siuham]

Please. The fact that Butler is thrown around to trump SIU and Montana is laughable.

There are a ton of teams that would be undefeated if they had to play Butler's schedule, and I'm not exaggerating. (most, if not all of the top 25)

Butler being undefeated against FCS teams is nothing close to SIU and Montana being undefeated against FCS teams. If SIU and Montana win out, they deserve the #1 and #2 spots.

I just don't think it'll happen because of that nifty regionalization effect.

It'll either be SIU or Montana at 1 & 3 or 2 & 4.

:(

[Hoyadestroya85]

I just don't think it'll happen because of that nifty regionalization effect.

It'll either be SIU or Montana at 1 & 3 or 2 & 4.

:(

As long as SIU and Villanova are lined up to play in the championship, I'll be happy.

[Green26]

Come on man. You just argued for Butler to get a top 2 seed. Would you be making the same argument if Montana wasn't undefeated? So when two of the top three teams play each other and they don't tie, you're going to drop one of them behind an undefeated team that hasn't played a top 15 team? Sorry, I'm not buying that.

Eight Legger, I said "if there are TOP teams with no I-AA losses." Do you consider Butler a TOP team?

Aren't you the guy who says he's a journalist, but, once again, has proven that he can't read?

As for the top 15 comment, Montana is ranked no. 1 in the coaches poll and no. 2 in the Sports Network poll. UM has beaten the 13th, 16th and 19th teams, in the GPI. UM beat a team (CP) a week after it beat the 9th ranked team (SoDakSt).

The games the committee considers most important are the I-AA games.

And yes, if UM had lost a I-AA game, and there were other TOP teams who were undefeated, I would feel the same way.

[89Hen]

not long enough to know that all those teams you talk about are not in the state of Delaware, of course you were wearing Phillies and Eagle shirts, your from NC county, the difference is you go across the border to PA and you wont see anybody that gives a ****e about Nova, drive across the border back to Delaware and all of the sudden you find Hens fans....the only game in town
So can I tell people in Arlington, Springfield, DC, etc... that they aren't really Skins fans? You have to be from Maryland to be a Skins fan, since that's where the stadium is. xeyebrowx

[89Hen]

Gannon, it is absolutely not true that Montana has had playoff games at 15k and people swore it was a sell out. UM never sells out the early rounds of the playoffs, and never claims to. UM has not had a playoff game as low as 15 K for many year.

Quit making up your BS.
He's saying fans do that, not the school. It DOES happen every year. Everyone claims the schools are way underreporting the attendance.

[Grabholdofyosef]

So, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Liberty is at 21.

Sitting above them is JMU (out) and Jax St (ineligible). That theoretically puts Liberty as the 19th rated team that's eligible.

Delaware has to beat both Navy and Nova which is possible but highly unlikely, so for the sake of this question let's assume they lose one of those games and are out. That theoretically puts Liberty as the 18th rated team that's eligible.

The three teams above Liberty in the GPI (EWU, Weber St, NAU) all cannot win out. It's impossible. All three need to win out to get to seven wins. Let's assume that one of them does not win out (which is on the low side). That theoretically puts Liberty as the 17th rated team that's eligible.

Being at 16 in all three polls right now, and theoretically at 17 in the GPI, what are the chances Liberty can legitimately make a claim, in the polls, that they are worthy of that 16th slot? I'm not looking for your opinion on where they should be ranked. I'm talking about given the evidence we have in front of us, that I've laid out, what are the chances Liberty gets in?

(I give it three posts before people start attacking our schedule and saying we're too high in the polls right now even though that's completely opposite of what my question is.)
AQ:
Nova
Montana
Lafayette
Elon
SFA
SIU
SCSU
EIU

At larges:
Richmond, UNH, W&M, ASU, McNeese St, UNI, SDSU, EWU

I think it will be very tough for Liberty to get in but they will be in the discussion. This year the at larges look nasty if everyone takes cares of business.

In the group above, UNI, ASU and EWU will have 3 losses compared to Liberty's 2 but i think their resume isnt as strong so they would probably be left out. Now if one or two of the group of eight slip up, then Liberty and Holy Cross have a better chance.

I think this year's at large group could be one of the strongest groups in recent memory. Delaware could mess the whole thing by winning out and then one of the at larges would be very disappointed.

AQ:
Nova
Montana
Lafayette
Elon
SFA
SIU
SCSU
EIU

At larges:
Richmond, UNH, W&M, ASU, McNeese St, UNI, SDSU, EWU

[YoUDeeMan]

In my view, any team with a I-AA loss does not deserve a top 2 seed if there are top teams with no I-AA losses. It doesn't matter if Richmond, Villan. and UNH are very good, and lost to each other. You need to win all your I-AA games to get a top 2 seed ahead of undefeated teams.

Stop. xlolx

Who cares if a team is undefeated? If UD wasn't in the CAA and played in the OVC and won all of it's games by 1 point, and nova was beating the top teams in the country, including a 7-2 FBS Temple team, but had a small loss to UNH, I coud throw out the "we're unbeaten and we earned a seed" line. But it would ring hollow.

Montana should be judged on it's resume...who they played, how they played...not a simple number. They, like their OVC counterparts, have not played a tough schedule. Montana should be undefeated. Big deal. But have they played well consistently enough to be called one of the top two teams in the nation?

Nope.

It is telling how Montana fans, deep down inside, know they must stay at home to have a chance. If Montana were truly good, their fans would say, "Yeah, we'd like to stay at home for the playoffs with a seed, but we're good enough to go anywhere and we'll beat your team."

Funny how Griz fans don't consistently say those things. xlolx

[Pitz]

Montana should be judged on it's resume...who they played, how they played...not a simple number. They, like their OVC counterparts, have not played a tough schedule.

Like the OVC? Maybe a liiiitle harsh. The Big Sky isn't that bad.

Having noted that, I still don't think Montana should have the #1 seed if the season ended today.

[Green26]

He's saying fans do that, not the school. It DOES happen every year. Everyone claims the schools are way underreporting the attendance.


Hen, you don't seem to understand. Montana fans have not been doing that. Gannon's statement is not accurate.

[GannonFan]

Hen, you don't seem to understand. Montana fans have not been doing that. Gannon's statement is not accurate.

Hey, Montana fans have come on these boards over the years and said that the attendances were underreported. Your beef is with them. xnonox

[GannonFan]

Tickets at the Pavillion have never been "easy" to get.. they were "easier" to get. And I guarantee you if delaware had a string of three 3-8 seasons you're telling me tickets to the Tub wouldn't be easier to get?

I walked up to the Pavillion a few times in the 90's, on game day, and got tickets from the window. Obviously can't do that today, but there was a time when it wasn't a hot ticket.

As for the Tub, like the other poster said, there's only 11,000 season tickets. Even with the university holding back say 5k for students, that's still 7k tickets available to the general public every game. Most games don't sell out until the week of the game. It's always been easy to get a ticket to the Tub - heck, single game tickets go on sale in August, giving some games months to sell tickets. xthumbsupx

[89Hen]

Hen, you don't seem to understand. Montana fans have not been doing that. Gannon's statement is not accurate.
They have (fans of EVERY team have). You can disagree.

[TypicalTribe]

So, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Liberty is at 21.

Sitting above them is JMU (out) and Jax St (ineligible). That theoretically puts Liberty as the 19th rated team that's eligible.

Delaware has to beat both Navy and Nova which is possible but highly unlikely, so for the sake of this question let's assume they lose one of those games and are out. That theoretically puts Liberty as the 18th rated team that's eligible.

The three teams above Liberty in the GPI (EWU, Weber St, NAU) all cannot win out. It's impossible. All three need to win out to get to seven wins. Let's assume that one of them does not win out (which is on the low side). That theoretically puts Liberty as the 17th rated team that's eligible.

Being at 16 in all three polls right now, and theoretically at 17 in the GPI, what are the chances Liberty can legitimately make a claim, in the polls, that they are worthy of that 16th slot? I'm not looking for your opinion on where they should be ranked. I'm talking about given the evidence we have in front of us, that I've laid out, what are the chances Liberty gets in?

(I give it three posts before people start attacking our schedule and saying we're too high in the polls right now even though that's completely opposite of what my question is.)

I think we can agree that six of the at-large bids are pretty much locked up with 3 teams from the CAA, two from the Valley and the loser of ASU/Elon. That leaves two spots up for grabs. I think Liberty needs to hope, more than anything, for either the SLC or Big Sky to end up with no legitimate at-large options. That would mosst likely leave Liberty and the runner-up from the Patriot as the teams vying for the last spot. If that happens to be Lafayette, then the Flames may just sneak in.

[Grizzaholic]

Stop. xlolx

Who cares if a team is undefeated? If UD wasn't in the CAA and played in the OVC and won all of it's games by 1 point, and nova was beating the top teams in the country, including a 7-2 FBS Temple team, but had a small loss to UNH, I coud throw out the "we're unbeaten and we earned a seed" line. But it would ring hollow.

Montana should be judged on it's resume...who they played, how they played...not a simple number. They, like their OVC counterparts, have not played a tough schedule. Montana should be undefeated. Big deal. But have they played well consistently enough to be called one of the top two teams in the nation?

Nope.

It is telling how Montana fans, deep down inside, know they must stay at home to have a chance. If Montana were truly good, their fans would say, "Yeah, we'd like to stay at home for the playoffs with a seed, but we're good enough to go anywhere and we'll beat your team."

Funny how Griz fans don't consistently say those things. xlolx

You Delaware fans just make me want to xoopsx. Thanks to you and 89Hen for always putting a smile on my face with your illogical reasoning.

[bluehenbillk]

It is telling how Montana fans, deep down inside, know they must stay at home to have a chance.



Except if the game is at JMU xthumbsupx

[JMUNJ08]

Except if the game is at JMU xthumbsupx

The Griz are who we thought they are! and we let'em off the hook!

Now back to UM vs UDxpopcornx

[89Hen]

You Delaware fans just make me want to xoopsx. Thanks to you and 89Hen for always putting a smile on my face with your illogical reasoning.
Smile? I'm busting out laughing at your comment. xlolx

[Green26]

Hey, Montana fans have come on these boards over the years and said that the attendances were underreported. Your beef is with them. xnonox

Okay, give us some evidence that even two or more Griz fans have come on the board previously and said UM playoff attendance was underreported. Otherwise, please refrain from making up stuff.

[Green26]

He's saying fans do that, not the school. It DOES happen every year. Everyone claims the schools are way underreporting the attendance.

Okay, Hen, give us some evidence that two or more Griz fans have come on the board previously and said UM playoff attendance was underreported. Otherwise, please refrain from making up stuff.

[Hoyadestroya85]

If Villanova had Montana's schedule, they'd be undefeated

[uofmman1122]

If Villanova had Montana's schedule, they'd be undefeatedIf Montana had Nova's schedule, we'd still be undefeated.

Now try and prove me wrong with hypothetical hyperbole. xcoffeex

[CSN-info]

Villanova is #1 in the GPI, Richmond is 3rd, Montana is tied for 4th with William & Mary. The CAA is a level above the BSC in the GPI, ranked 1st while the BSC is 3rd. They are not on par with each other.

[JMUNJ08]

If Montana had Nova's schedule, we'd still be undefeated.

Now try and prove me wrong with hypothetical hyperbole. xcoffeex

You'd lose to @ Temple and @ Richmond because they aren't @ Wash-Griz. 7-2 ain't bad

[89Hen]

Okay, Hen, give us some evidence that two or more Griz fans have come on the board previously and said UM playoff attendance was underreported. Otherwise, please refrain from making up stuff.
xlolx Yeah, let me go back 11 or 23 months to find those. People remember it and like I've said two, now three, times... it's not just Montana. Hen fans say the same thing. xrulesx

[93henfan]

xlolx Yeah, let me go back 11 or 23 months to find those. People remember it and like I've said two, now three, times... it's not just Montana. Hen fans say the same thing. xrulesx

I've said it.

Case in point:

The reported attendance for last week's Hofstra @ UD game was 18,433 and there were huge swaths of empty seats throughout the stadium. All four corners of the stadium had at least ten rows of empty seats. The reported attendance at the 2007 first round playoff game of Del State @ UD was 19,765 in a stadium that can realistically hold 23,000. I was there that day, as were most of the UD fans that post here, and there is NO WAY there were 3,000+ empty seats there that day. It looked at least 95% packed.

The only wildcard here is that the first figure surely contains a count of tickets sold that may have been no-shows, while the second figure probably includes negligible no-shows.

Think about it. If a school can skim the reported numbers to the NCAA, they can pocket the difference for home playoff games. Why not fudge it by a couple of thousand and keep the extra $50-100K for your program? That being said, I have no idea about the audit capability of the NCAA, so I may be completely speaking out of my arse about fraud on the part of school ticket offices, so take my observations with a grain of salt. Just reporting what my eyes tell me. xpeacex

[Green26]

Any team that intentionally underreports playoff attendance to the ncca, so that it can "skim" more money for themselves, should be banned from post-season play. That is dishonest. I also assume that the ncaa does some level of auditing of ticket sales.

[GannonFan]

Any team that intentionally underreports playoff attendance to the ncca, so that it can "skim" more money for themselves, should be banned from post-season play. That is dishonest. I also assume that the ncaa does some level of auditing of ticket sales.

You wouldn't have a playoffs. And no, the NCAA doesn't do a lick of auditing. It's not like they have agents at every turnstile double checking the actual count. Is this your first season following the Griz??

[Hoyadestroya85]

I totally agree, everyone who underreports attendance should lose Postseason Eligibility! While we're at it, why don't we give The Griz 11 regular season home games a year and four posteseason home games (including the championship.)

[89Hen]

The reported attendance at the 2007 first round playoff game of Del State @ UD was 19,765 in a stadium that can realistically hold 23,000. I was there that day, as were most of the UD fans that post here, and there is NO WAY there were 3,000+ empty seats there that day. It looked at least 95% packed.
The Tub holds 22,000 and 95% of 22,000 is 20,900 so you're talking about 1,135 missing people. What happens in the playoff games is people spread out. I know for the games against SIU, Wofford, Lafayette, even DSU... there were empty seats here and there around us and I was not crammed in like when it is sold out. It's easy to disperse 1200 empties to make it look more full.

I used to be on the underreporting team, but after realizing how uncramped I was at playoff games, I no longer think the numbers are far off.

[93henfan]

The Tub holds 22,000 and 95% of 22,000 is 20,900 so you're talking about 1,135 missing people. What happens in the playoff games is people spread out. I know for the games against SIU, Wofford, Lafayette, even DSU... there were empty seats here and there around us and I was not crammed in like when it is sold out. It's easy to disperse 1200 empties to make it look more full.

I used to be on the underreporting team, but after realizing how uncramped I was at playoff games, I no longer think the numbers are far off.

Bear in mind that you choose to sit in perhaps the last part of the stadium where walkups would choose to purchase tickets. From my vantage point, the DSU playoff game was nearly packed. I watched the Hofstra game on UD live because I had a birthday party for one of my sons to prep for, and I was amazed at how many empties I saw. There was clearly not a difference of only 1,300 in the two games. Like I said earlier, the wildcard could be paid no-shows (ie. there were really only ~16K or something at the Hofstra game), but I somehow doubt that makes up the whole difference. Hence, my belief is that they underreport playoff games a bit. Like I said, just a theory. Maybe someone can get Babs Fleming drunk some time and get her to fess up? I'm not volunteering.

[uofmman1122]

You'd lose to @ Temple and @ Richmond because they aren't @ Wash-Griz. 7-2 ain't badxlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

Nicely done, son.

[GannonFan]

The Tub holds 22,000 and 95% of 22,000 is 20,900 so you're talking about 1,135 missing people. What happens in the playoff games is people spread out. I know for the games against SIU, Wofford, Lafayette, even DSU... there were empty seats here and there around us and I was not crammed in like when it is sold out. It's easy to disperse 1200 empties to make it look more full.

I used to be on the underreporting team, but after realizing how uncramped I was at playoff games, I no longer think the numbers are far off.

There's no way that Lehigh game in 2000 was 6k-7k short of a sellout, no matter how spread out people were. Maybe it's not as large as it's made out to be, but the numbers certainly don't add up. xwhistlex

[caribbeanhen]

So can I tell people in Arlington, Springfield, DC, etc... that they aren't really Skins fans?


does this have anything to do with the poor fan support at Nova regardless of geography xconfusedx

[UNH72Plus]

This may be a little off topic, but with all the discussions about Montana's last second victory over Idaho State, how big a part should point differential play in the GPI and ultimately in selecting playoff teams? And if you do consider it, how do you do it? Obviously the opponents' records and strength of schedule are factors, but what about adverse weather conditions, coachs who leave the starters in to run up the score, etc.?