Colgate Maroon Council leadership Recommends FB Scholarships to Colgate BOT

[Go...gate]

I just received an e-mail from Maroon Council to this effect.

Though on its face this seems like a no-brainer, it is nice to see that formal action has been taken by this support group and that its has notified Colgate's Board of Trustees. One of the benefits of the move cited by Maroon Council is that Colgate will be able to take advantage of better scheduling opportunities, which would seem to indicate a return to Colgate's traditional practice of scheduling the occasional "stretch game", among other things.

[WestCoastAggie]

So wait a minute. Colgate doesn't offer FB Scholly's?

[Go...gate]

So wait a minute. Colgate doesn't offer FB Scholly's?

Not yet, but this group is aggressively pushing for them.

Right now, we (and everyone else in the Patriot League except Fordham) offer "equivalencies", about which there have been a lot of threads already on this board.

[WestCoastAggie]

Not yet, but this group is aggressively pushing for them.

Right now, we (and everyone else in the Patriot League except Fordham) offer "equivalencies", about which there have been a lot of threads already on this board.

Gotcha! This would keep 'gate at the top of the Patriot, if it happens.

[Fordham]

xhurrayx

xprost2x

[MplsBison]

So wait a minute. Colgate doesn't offer FB Scholly's?

They'll give a football player a grant that only football players can get....if he comes from a poor enough family.

If he comes from a rich family, he won't get anything.

[RichH2]

Great news , Gate and LU on the yes side, at least if your BOT goes along. I hope they get around to schollies this off season rather than next.

[Franks Tanks]

Gotcha! This would keep 'gate at the top of the Patriot, if it happens.

If Gate approves others will go along

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Nice to get another vote for the "yes" side.

Now for the hard schools.

[DFW HOYA]

If Gate approves others will go along


Well, some others... :(

[Go...gate]

xhurrayx

xprost2x

Agree. Let's hope our BOT still has the pair they had when they adoped other scholarships and says yes.

[MplsBison]

Well, some others... :(

Go to the PFL, where you belong.

[DFW HOYA]

Go to the PFL, where you belong.

You mean the Big East, right? xlolx

I've said it before, with 23 scholarship teams out of 29, Georgetown isn't an anti-scholarship program.

Getting the money remains the problem.

[Pard4Life]

Meh, this is like a group of bakers recommending putting icing on a cupcake. BOT can ignore this if they wish, just like Lafayette for a decade.

[Go...gate]

Meh, this is like a group of bakers recommending putting icing on a cupcake. BOT can ignore this if they wish, just like Lafayette for a decade.

Your BOT's were toadies to a jackass (Rothkopf). Our BOT's appear to be a bit more tuned in to reality.

[Franks Tanks]

Your BOT's were toadies to a jackass (Rothkopf). Our BOT's appear to be a bit more tuned in to reality.

Weiss is better than Art, but the BOT still has a few jerks. We have some newer Trustee's who are very sports friendly, such as Hal Kamine, who played vasity baseball and donated lots of $ for baseball. He understands the need to keep up with the PL.


Also even the idiot trustee should realize that holding off on scholarships for basketball destroyed the program and we are still attempting to recover. I doubt that would repeat that with football especially with Mr. Bouger's influence.

[Seawolf97]

This is great news for the Raiders. Hope to see it happenxthumbsupx

[carney2]

That's 3 (out of 7) on the yes" side. Frankly, I don't see any of the other 4 jumping in there at this time.

[MplsBison]

You mean the Big East, right? xlolx

I've said it before, with 23 scholarship teams out of 29, Georgetown isn't an anti-scholarship program.

Getting the money remains the problem.

The only money "problem" you have is that your admin wants to pretend they are in the Ivy League for football.

[MplsBison]

By the way, I would very much approve of Colgate choosing to be like Syracuse instead of Cornell.

Both are top tier academic schools, which disproves that you can not have both a top academic program and a scholarship athletic program.

[busybee14]

By the way, I would very much approve of Colgate choosing to be like Syracuse instead of Cornell.

Both are top tier academic schools, which disproves that you can not have both a top academic program and a scholarship athletic program.

Stanford,Vandy,Northwestern,Wofford,W&M all make it work both ways

[Franks Tanks]

By the way, I would very much approve of Colgate choosing to be like Syracuse instead of Cornell.

Both are top tier academic schools, which disproves that you can not have both a top academic program and a scholarship athletic program.

Shut up-- nobody cares what you think about this issue, and nobody thinks you cant have scholarship athletics and top notch academics. There is nothing to disprove.

PL schools also offer scholarship is other sports for the 25th time.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Stanford,Vandy,Northwestern,Wofford,W&M all make it work both ways

You couldn't have picked four more different situations.

* Stanford and Northwestern are in FBS, of course, but they're in the biggest money of the BC$ conferences: the Big 10 and Pac 10. They get a huge cut of bowl revenue even if they suck, and if they shoot the moon every 5-10 years they get a monster payday in terms of a BC$ bowl.

They get the big money, and have to spend big money in order to stay in there.

* Wofford is the smallest school sponsoring D-I athletics (1,389 students). They are in a b-ball conference that is considered small mid-major, and have the bare minimum of sports to be compliant, and they put a huge amount of their athletics budget towards football - to, some might argue, the detriment of other sports. (When was the last time Wofford was ever in the NCAA basketball tourney?)

* William & Mary is in a high mid-major conference in b-ball (the CAA). They sponsor a lot of sports, and are a public-private hybrid school and as a result get just under the same number of students (5,850) as Stanford (6,532) or Northwestern (8,476). They choose to sponsor scholarships in FCS, but are probably better poised to handle it than Wofford.

Comparing what the PL wants to what Stanford and Northwestern do isn't really valid, and even W&M has a bigger pool of undergrads and therefore can do "more". Only Wofford can be used as some sort of guide for the future - and the "future" isn't as rosy, or as easy, as a lot of people think. I'm not saying impossible - just that it's a challenge.

[MplsBison]

You couldn't have picked four more different situations.

* Stanford and Northwestern are in FBS, of course, but they're in the biggest money of the BC$ conferences: the Big 10 and Pac 10. They get a huge cut of bowl revenue even if they suck, and if they shoot the moon every 5-10 years they get a monster payday in terms of a BC$ bowl.

They get the big money, and have to spend big money in order to stay in there.

* Wofford is the smallest school sponsoring D-I athletics (1,389 students). They are in a b-ball conference that is considered small mid-major, and have the bare minimum of sports to be compliant, and they put a huge amount of their athletics budget towards football - to, some might argue, the detriment of other sports. (When was the last time Wofford was ever in the NCAA basketball tourney?)

* William & Mary is in a high mid-major conference in b-ball (the CAA). They sponsor a lot of sports, and are a public-private hybrid school and as a result get just under the same number of students (5,850) as Stanford (6,532) or Northwestern (8,476). They choose to sponsor scholarships in FCS, but are probably better poised to handle it than Wofford.

Comparing what the PL wants to what Stanford and Northwestern do isn't really valid, and even W&M has a bigger pool of undergrads and therefore can do "more". Only Wofford can be used as some sort of guide for the future - and the "future" isn't as rosy, or as easy, as a lot of people think. I'm not saying impossible - just that it's a challenge.

You seem to be implying that it's only a matter of money when it fact, as it's been for the PL, it's really a matter of ideology and nothing more.

[DFW HOYA]

You seem to be implying that it's only a matter of money when it fact, as it's been for the PL, it's really a matter of ideology and nothing more.

At Holy Cross, it's ideology. At Georgetown, it's money.

For the rest, it's a combination of the two.

[RichH2]

My Gawd, fella. You are beating a dead horse. Ignoring facts that dont agree with your postion may be common today but makes any real discussion impossible. Yes, initial issue for PL is philosophy, which issue for most sports and schools has already been fielded. The more important issue now is funding. You blindly assume , because it fits your agenda ( ala Mr. Beck), that lots of money available for football schollies . Just not true for some schools. Even GU which is a scholarship school. The $ has to come from somewhere. Cross may have some other issues but GU , LC and BU the sole issue is $$$$ xnonox

[Franks Tanks]

My Gawd, fella. You are beating a dead horse. Ignoring facts that dont agree with your postion may be common today but makes any real discussion impossible. Yes, initial issue for PL is philosophy, which issue for most sports and schools has already been fielded. The more important issue now is funding. You blindly assume , because it fits your agenda ( ala Mr. Beck), that lots of money available for football schollies . Just not true for some schools. Even GU which is a scholarship school. The $ has to come from somewhere. Cross may have some other issues but GU , LC and BU the sole issue is $$$$ xnonox

LC has the money-- as much as Gate, Lehigh, and Bucknel have the money. We may or may not have title IX issues, but we have the money. The question is do we want to spend the money on this.

There would also be some faculty dissention with scholarships.

[Go...gate]

LC has the money-- as much as Gate, Lehigh, and Bucknel have the money. We may or may not have title IX issues, but we have the money. The question is do we want to spend the money on this.

There would also be some faculty dissention with scholarships.

Colgate still must confront this. My biggest concern.

[MplsBison]

At Holy Cross, it's ideology. At Georgetown, it's money.

For the rest, it's a combination of the two.

Yeah yeah.

Poor, poor Georgetown. If only they had any cash...then they'd play in the Big East xrolleyesx

[MplsBison]

LC has the money-- as much as Gate, Lehigh, and Bucknel have the money. We may or may not have title IX issues, but we have the money. The question is do we want to spend the money on this.

There would also be some faculty dissention with scholarships.

Tell the faculty to go pound sand.


They don't have a seat at the table.

[DFW HOYA]

Yeah yeah.

Poor, poor Georgetown. If only they had any cash...then they'd play in the Big East xrolleyesx

You may want to do some homework first.

Georgetown basically spends $8 million on men's basketball and $5 million to support 13 other men's sports, a third of which goes to football alone. That's still a tight budget under any definition, especially with Big East rules which raise minimum scholarship requirments in other sports, which siginificantly limits discretionary funds to support more PL grant money.

GU is not looking to cut sports; hence, the need to raise more money for football support. Is there $3 million a year sitting out in the budget to spend at Fordham's level? No.

[MplsBison]

You may want to do some homework first.

Georgetown basically spends $8 million on men's basketball and $5 million to support 13 other men's sports, a third of which goes to football alone. That's still a tight budget under any definition, especially with Big East rules which raise minimum scholarship requirments in other sports, which siginificantly limits discretionary funds to support more PL grant money.

GU is not looking to cut sports; hence, the need to raise more money for football support. Is there $3 million a year sitting out in the budget to spend at Fordham's level? No.

But GU is never going to recruit the players they need to win if they don't spend the money on scholarships first!

That's the entire point.


You have to win before you get support. That's how it's always been and always will be.

[Go...gate]

Tell the faculty to go pound sand.

They don't have a seat at the table.

I happen to agree with you re: the faculty, but Colgate has a cadre of faculty and a few administrators who are overly preoccupied with turning the place into Williams, Amherst or Middlebury, and would be thrilled if we raised sheep on the athletic fields (at least the ones which still have grass).

[Pard94]

How can a subject so critical to the future success of the league be SOOOOO frig*ing boring to discuss? My god, I've suffered through root canals that were more entertaining.

[TheValleyRaider]

How can a subject so critical to the future success of the league be SOOOOO frig*ing boring to discuss? My god, I've suffered through root canals that were more entertaining.

I think it's because we've covered this territory again and again. People here, people who post and talk about their football teams like this, are very much in favor of the implementation of scholarships

And our opinion doesn't matter

Until there's real movement from the Presidents/BOTs on this issue, then we're just sitting here repeating ourselves

For the record, I like what the Maroon Council has done here, but I wonder if it will have a real effect. Of course, we may see that when the Board begins to finalize its candidates for the next President

[RichH2]

i think we all realizethat our opinions mean zip in this process. A way of keeping our slim hopes alive. 3 definite out of 7 by no means a lock on any kind of merit aid plan. Heck, the Presidents may just send it to committee for a study, which kills the issue for at least a decade.

Right now I'm looking forward to wrestling and Bball

[Go...gate]

I'm not sure that Maroon Council (which has been around since the early 1960's) ever got this formal about it before. That was why I was surprised. But they have stepped up, and it is good news.

[TheValleyRaider]

I'm not sure that Maroon Council (which has been around since the early 1960's) ever got this formal about it before. That was why I was surprised. But they have stepped up, and it is good news.

I agree, and certainly think (and hope) the collective weight of the Council, which includes a fair number of large donors I would think, will carry some sway in what is a critical and complex process xtwocentsx

[busybee14]

You couldn't have picked four more different situations.

* Stanford and Northwestern are in FBS, of course, but they're in the biggest money of the BC$ conferences: the Big 10 and Pac 10. They get a huge cut of bowl revenue even if they suck, and if they shoot the moon every 5-10 years they get a monster payday in terms of a BC$ bowl.

They get the big money, and have to spend big money in order to stay in there.

* Wofford is the smallest school sponsoring D-I athletics (1,389 students). They are in a b-ball conference that is considered small mid-major, and have the bare minimum of sports to be compliant, and they put a huge amount of their athletics budget towards football - to, some might argue, the detriment of other sports. (When was the last time Wofford was ever in the NCAA basketball tourney?)

* William & Mary is in a high mid-major conference in b-ball (the CAA). They sponsor a lot of sports, and are a public-private hybrid school and as a result get just under the same number of students (5,850) as Stanford (6,532) or Northwestern (8,476). They choose to sponsor scholarships in FCS, but are probably better poised to handle it than Wofford.

Comparing what the PL wants to what Stanford and Northwestern do isn't really valid, and even W&M has a bigger pool of undergrads and therefore can do "more". Only Wofford can be used as some sort of guide for the future - and the "future" isn't as rosy, or as easy, as a lot of people think. I'm not saying impossible - just that it's a challenge.

What if the PL kept the need based formula but added "merit"$$ availability. espescially when targeting high value recruits.isint this just a cheecky way to give football $ without calling it a scholie?everyone saves face and the quality of football players recruited increases.at least athlete wise.

[Franks Tanks]

What if the PL kept the need based formula but added "merit"$$ availability. espescially when targeting high value recruits.isint this just a cheecky way to give football $ without calling it a scholie?everyone saves face and the quality of football players recruited increases.at least athlete wise.

That may happen if that scenario is possible. Some have floated the idea of perhaps 40 full scholly's and the rest of the roster be filled with need based aid players. I am sure this will be one of possibilities considered (hopefully)

[BDKJMU]

Help me out here. Have a few questions.

Fordham is going scholly for football starting next yr, done deal, right?

Are they going the full 63, phasing in over the next 4 years?

Patriot can't kick out Fordham because would leave only 6 teams and would lose the AQ, right?

So the rest of the Patriot schools have 2 choices, either start giving schollies, or watch Fordham pretty much walk away with the title every year?

Is this the situation in a nutshell?

[the last indian]

Combo of aid and merit not going to happen. Accomplishes nothing in terms of scheduling. 63 scholarships phased in over 4 years. Fordham believes that they will save money in terms of lower recruiting costs and get get a better student as well.

[TheValleyRaider]

Help me out here. Have a few questions.

Fordham is going scholly for football starting next yr, done deal, right?

Are they going the full 63, phasing in over the next 4 years?

Patriot can't kick out Fordham because would leave only 6 teams and would lose the AQ, right?

So the rest of the Patriot schools have 2 choices, either start giving schollies, or watch Fordham pretty much walk away with the title every year?

Is this the situation in a nutshell?

I think Fordham is phasing in the scholarships, but either way, once they give an explicit athletic scholarship, they are violating the League's rules and are ineligible for the PL title

6 teams is the minimum for an autobid, and since the playoff field is expanding, there is no chance the PL would lose their autobid (assuming no one else leaves). I don't know the NCAA rules that would regard a team being a conference member with the exception of being ineligible for the League title, but even if it doesn't count for the NCAA, we'd still have 6 teams

Basically, the League is doing exactly what I would expect and is trying to split the difference. Fordham will give scholarships, yet will remain a PL member except for the fact that they will not be eligible for the League title. No guarantee they'd walk away with the title every year, but it certainly couldn't hurt their chances

This of course is all if nothing happens during this offseason regarding the League's official stance on scholarships. At this point, it's hard to feel optimistic that a real decision will actually be reached before the 2010 season kicks off, but I suppose you never really know...

[Pard94]

That may happen if that scenario is possible. Some have floated the idea of perhaps 40 full scholly's and the rest of the roster be filled with need based aid players. I am sure this will be one of possibilities considered (hopefully)

What's the point of 4o scholarships' If the administration (specifically the faculty) is morally opposed to scholarships on some BS philisophical prinicpal then it would seem to me the toothpaste is out of the tube whether it be with 40 scholarships or the full compliment. It's like being a little bit pregnant.

[RichH2]

At this point stated deadline for decision is AFTER the 2010 season. One way or the other, I would hope it would be this year. I dont think anything more can possibly be predicted, said, etc ,etc than has not already been posted 4 or 5 times. As my team is abysmal so far I enjoy schollie talk more than football but it is mind numbingly repetitious now xoopsx

[blukeys]

I have followed the PL travails on this for years and I give props to the Colgate Maroons! Best of luck to you guys. I don't have a dog in this hunt but IMHO the PL would be better off decoupling from the Ivies and joining the rest of FCS.

Let the Ivies pretend they are the only schools that play football. Eventually, their players and younger fans will want to see what they could actually do playing the big boys.

The PL faculty idiots believe they need to suck up to the Ivies and pretend the rest of the world doesn't exist. The athletes and students want to see how their teams measure up.

Now if the Pl and Ivy purists want to be really pure, then please turn down the NCAA money that comes with the auto bid each conference gets in the Men's Basketball tournament . The Ivy/PL football model pretends that the rest of the world doesn't exist. Can they at least be consistent and turn down the basketball money from the NCAA as well???

[Franks Tanks]

What's the point of 4o scholarships' If the administration (specifically the faculty) is morally opposed to scholarships on some BS philisophical prinicpal then it would seem to me the toothpaste is out of the tube whether it be with 40 scholarships or the full compliment. It's like being a little bit pregnant.

I agree, but we may need to start with baby steps..you know how PL leadership operates.

[DFW HOYA]

Fordham is going scholly for football starting next yr, done deal, right?
Right.

Are they going the full 63, phasing in over the next 4 years?
They haven't talked about any phasing. And to get the I-A opponents they're talking about, they may be converting all the aid grants to scholarships right in 2010.

Patriot can't kick out Fordham because would leave only 6 teams and would lose the AQ, right?
As long as they keep Georgetown, they've got the autobid.

So the rest of the Patriot schools have 2 choices, either start giving schollies, or watch Fordham pretty much walk away with the title every year?
Fordham is ineligible for the title.
The third option is "status quo", the motto on the PL seal...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't have a dog in this hunt but IMHO the PL would be better off decoupling from the Ivies and joining the rest of FCS.

The PL faculty idiots believe they need to suck up to the Ivies and pretend the rest of the world doesn't exist. The athletes and students want to see how their teams measure up.

Now if the Pl and Ivy purists want to be really pure, then please turn down the NCAA money that comes with the auto bid each conference gets in the Men's Basketball tournament . The Ivy/PL football model pretends that the rest of the world doesn't exist. Can they at least be consistent and turn down the basketball money from the NCAA as well???

To back this up, I'm repasting a comment I made on the "New Low for the Ivy?" thread:


The more the Ivy hermetically seals themselves off from the rest of the NCAA world the sooner the Ivies will be relegating themselves to D-III-style status. That may be fine to you to play Amherst, Williams and Dartmouth, but in sports other than football the IL appears to want to compete for "national championships", in, for example, Olympic sports.

If the IL really wants to pursue this, why not just go all out? Drop to D-III, lose the pretense that you can actually pursue a national championship in NCAA basketball or hockey or lacrosse, and just have the courage to say that "we don't really care to compete for national championships". No polls; no rankings; we don't care how we stack up with the rest of the country. We're the Ivies!

It's the IL's thought that polls don't matter that is a huge problem for your league. For a lot of fans of football in the subdivision you ostensibly play in, your ranking is all you represent. And with Penn getting only 11 votes, it could very well be that the IL isn't ranked at all for the rest of the year, especially if the champ goes 7-3.


Let the Ivies pretend they are the only schools that play football. Eventually, their players and younger fans will want to see what they could actually do playing the big boys.

The trouble with the Ivy doing this - though it seems like a definite possibility for the IL - is that once they're down at D-III, it will be wicked hard to get back up to D-I. And the types of students they attract will be more and more homogeneous and less and less diverse. Demoting athletics to D-III could very well be the dumbest thing the IL could ever do - not only from a money/prestige perspective, but a diversity perspective as well.

There's no reason to believe that the PL feels the same way as the IL on this issue about dropping to D-III. Army and Navy would never agree to it, for starters, and in men's basketball (American, Bucknell, Holy Cross) and football (Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate) there is zero way they are agreeing to that either. While the PL presidents (IMHO) will follow the IL as long as they're D-I, if they choose to drop to D-III I don't think the PL won't fall in the same D-III hole.

[MplsBison]

I think it's because we've covered this territory again and again. People here, people who post and talk about their football teams like this, are very much in favor of the implementation of scholarships

And our opinion doesn't matter

Until there's real movement from the Presidents/BOTs on this issue, then we're just sitting here repeating ourselves

For the record, I like what the Maroon Council has done here, but I wonder if it will have a real effect. Of course, we may see that when the Board begins to finalize its candidates for the next President

Are the BOT and Presidents voted in?

Is there some way they can be threatened via losing the vote?

[MplsBison]

What's the point of 4o scholarships' If the administration (specifically the faculty) is morally opposed to scholarships on some BS philisophical prinicpal then it would seem to me the toothpaste is out of the tube whether it be with 40 scholarships or the full compliment. It's like being a little bit pregnant.

It's purely spite, from those who have the power to do something about it and don't like/want scholarship football.

If they can't stop it, they'll drag it out as long as possible and they won't care of a second if the students suffer for it.

[bison137]

You seem to be implying that it's only a matter of money when it fact, as it's been for the PL, it's really a matter of ideology and nothing more.



For most of the schools, it is a matter of money as well as ideology, since there are major Title IX implications.

[Pard94]

It's purely spite, from those who have the power to do something about it and don't like/want scholarship football.

If they can't stop it, they'll drag it out as long as possible and they won't care of a second if the students suffer for it.

That I can believe. It has been my experience that these sorts of folks (faculty) will go out of their way to profess openmindedness, inclusion and acceptance for students of all types...assuming you are from a protected class and the right protected class. This does not include those students whose gifts and talents lie more toward the physical as opposed to the cereberal. I'm not suggesting that PL schools should allow in any dumb jock off the street who can run a 4.4 forty. Why, however, would we want to discriminate against a student that might acutally be a little more well rounded? What's wrong with acknowleding that the student with the 1200 SAT who also has the skills to represent the institution on the athletic field is just as valuable to the school as the student with the 1300 SAT who will never see the light of day because they are in the library 24/7. I'll tell you what's wrong with it. None of the people in question, those with the objections, could represent thier respective institutions on the athletic field. They never could. They are the library cellar dwellers. Athletes are different and therefore lesser and therefore not welcome.

I am sure they would argue that colleeges and universities are institutions of higher learning and therefore we should only cater to the valedictorians and salutatorians. That's crap. Since when is "higher learning" limited to the class room? At best it is snobery. At worst it's discrimination.

[Go...gate]

To back this up, I'm repasting a comment I made on the "New Low for the Ivy?" thread:





The trouble with the Ivy doing this - though it seems like a definite possibility for the IL - is that once they're down at D-III, it will be wicked hard to get back up to D-I. And the types of students they attract will be more and more homogeneous and less and less diverse. Demoting athletics to D-III could very well be the dumbest thing the IL could ever do - not only from a money/prestige perspective, but a diversity perspective as well.
There's no reason to believe that the PL feels the same way as the IL on this issue about dropping to D-III. Army and Navy would never agree to it, for starters, and in men's basketball (American, Bucknell, Holy Cross) and football (Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate) there is zero way they are agreeing to that either. While the PL presidents (IMHO) will follow the IL as long as they're D-I, if they choose to drop to D-III I don't think the PL won't fall in the same D-III hole.

They would, however, have a built-in circle of similar athletic/academic philosophies in the NESCAC schools, which are of comparable diversity to the Ivy. I don't think that the Ivy would do this, however, though there are those like Bill Bowen, PU's former president, who believe and strongly advocate otherwise.

[MplsBison]

That I can believe. It has been my experience that these sorts of folks (faculty) will go out of their way to profess openmindedness, inclusion and acceptance for students of all types...assuming you are from a protected class and the right protected class. This does not include those students whose gifts and talents lie more toward the physical as opposed to the cereberal. I'm not suggesting that PL schools should allow in any dumb jock off the street who can run a 4.4 forty. Why, however, would we want to discriminate against a student that might acutally be a little more well rounded? What's wrong with acknowleding that the student with the 1200 SAT who also has the skills to represent the institution on the athletic field is just as valuable to the school as the student with the 1300 SAT who will never see the light of day because they are in the library 24/7. I'll tell you what's wrong with it. None of the people in question, those with the objections, could represent thier respective institutions on the athletic field. They never could. They are the library cellar dwellers. Athletes are different and therefore lesser and therefore not welcome.

I am sure they would argue that colleeges and universities are institutions of higher learning and therefore we should only cater to the valedictorians and salutatorians. That's crap. Since when is "higher learning" limited to the class room? At best it is snobery. At worst it's discrimination.

You hit it exactly!

Those in power were nerds themselves and want the schools to be nerd havens, where jocks and "physical activity" outside of Wii sports are disallowed.

[DFW HOYA]

Those in power were nerds themselves and want the schools to be nerd havens, where jocks and "physical activity" outside of Wii sports are disallowed.

That's an exaggeration, but academics by nature devoted more time in the libraries than most, and don't forget they have a few hundred faculty to keep engaged versus a lot fewer coaches.

Well, at least one PL president played football in college.

[blukeys]

That I can believe. It has been my experience that these sorts of folks (faculty) will go out of their way to profess openmindedness, inclusion and acceptance for students of all types...assuming you are from a protected class and the right protected class. This does not include those students whose gifts and talents lie more toward the physical as opposed to the cereberal.



I think you can find that type of bigotry in more places than just sports and colleges.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

That's an exaggeration, but academics by nature devoted more time in the libraries than most, and don't forget they have a few hundred faculty to keep engaged versus a lot fewer coaches.

Well, at least one PL president played football in college.

At least one AD played football in college, too.

[Franks Tanks]

At least one AD played football in college, too.

Which PL president played FB in college? Dont feel like looking it up.

Sterett was naturally a QB for Lehigh. Lafayette's AD Bruce McCutcheon actually played football for Lou Holtz at William and Mary in the mid-70's.

[Go...gate]

Which PL president played FB in college? Dont feel like looking it up.

Sterett was naturally a QB for Lehigh. Lafayette's AD Bruce McCutcheon actually played football for Lou Holtz at William and Mary in the mid-70's.

Though not relevant to this thread, Dick Biddle coached with him at Minnesota after Biddle left Colgate the first time in the 1980's.

[65 Pard]

As I have noted previously, and based on years of observation of hires and fellow employees: Everything being close to equal, I would always hire the athlete over the non athlete....Competitive trials tend to make them more resourceful and successful.....more attuned to overcoming failures...more adaptable to the team concept.

[Pard94]

I think you can find that type of bigotry in more places than just sports and colleges.


Well yes. I assume you're talking about the more "traditional" bigotry. Racism, Sexism, etc. etc. And traditionally Academia likes to consider itself kind of a first line of defense against such bigotry. Meanwhile they are looking down their noses at the student who is may be a little less book smart but can bench 385 lbs and run the forty less than 5 seconds and can do so while adorning the school colors. And whose abilities actually attract attention and publicity outside of the classroom. It's the hipocracy that bothers me.

[colorless raider]

Well yes. I assume you're talking about the more "traditional" bigotry. Racism, Sexism, etc. etc. And traditionally Academia likes to consider itself kind of a first line of defense against such bigotry. Meanwhile they are looking down their noses at the student who is may be a little less book smart but can bench 385 lbs and run the forty less than 5 seconds and can do so while adorning the school colors. And whose abilities actually attract attention and publicity outside of the classroom. It's the hipocracy that bothers me.

Well I am certainly with you on this one.

[bison137]

Which PL president played FB in college? Dont feel like looking it up.

Sterett was naturally a QB for Lehigh. Lafayette's AD Bruce McCutcheon actually played football for Lou Holtz at William and Mary in the mid-70's.



I'm not sure how big a supporter he has been of Bucknell football, but AD John Hardt played football for Iowa.

[ngineer]

We already know Lehigh is on board. So with Fordham that is '3'. I would think Lafayette and Bucknell have to come along, leaving HC and GT to decide which way to go. With scholarships, and if HC and GT decide to go a different route, I would suspect we'd be able to fill the voids left.

[DFW HOYA]

We already know Lehigh is on board. So with Fordham that is '3'. I would think Lafayette and Bucknell have to come along, leaving HC and GT to decide which way to go. With scholarships, and if HC and GT decide to go a different route, I would suspect we'd be able to fill the voids left.

The fact that there is doubt about filling the void suggests that, in true PL fashion, no ultimatums will be directed at Georgetown and HC.

The academic NEC schools aren't interested.
The Pioneer folks don't have the money.
The Yankee Conference expatriates would rather start their own league than confine itself to the Ivy-lite model.

Who's left?

[LeopardBall10]

We already know Lehigh is on board. So with Fordham that is '3'. I would think Lafayette and Bucknell have to come along, leaving HC and GT to decide which way to go. With scholarships, and if HC and GT decide to go a different route, I would suspect we'd be able to fill the voids left.

I have a hard time believing that too many of the schools themselves are actually on board with schollies. Sure all the fans and booster groups are, but what about the real decision makers on campuses? Tuitions are up, applications are down or at least they were last year due to economic troubles, and donations are way down across the board. It would sound crazy to propose more scholarships to a board of academic minded people who are intent on keeping the academic prowess of the Patriot League were it is. Sure, at some point something has to give, but until people stop using the economy as an excuse and some of these schools see numbers returning to normal, I think you'll see Fordham move on with plenty of teams vying for the opening in a league growing in recognition

[HoyaMetanoia]

The fact that there is doubt about filling the void suggests that, in true PL fashion, no ultimatums will be directed at Georgetown and HC.

The academic NEC schools aren't interested.
The Pioneer folks don't have the money.
The Yankee Conference expatriates would rather start their own league than confine itself to the Ivy-lite model.

Who's left?

Academic NEC schools? xlolx

[Franks Tanks]

I have a hard time believing that too many of the schools themselves are actually on board with schollies. Sure all the fans and booster groups are, but what about the real decision makers on campuses? Tuitions are up, applications are down or at least they were last year due to economic troubles, and donations are way down across the board. It would sound crazy to propose more scholarships to a board of academic minded people who are intent on keeping the academic prowess of the Patriot League were it is. Sure, at some point something has to give, but until people stop using the economy as an excuse and some of these schools see numbers returning to normal, I think you'll see Fordham move on with plenty of teams vying for the opening in a league growing in recognition

Welcome LeopardBall

A main point about the scholarship scenario is that the schools will not be spending anymore on football, just simply switching the funds already spent on need based aid to traditional scholarships. The NCAA already considers the PL a "scholarship league" and only categorizes the Ivies and Pioneer League as non-scholarship. The real issue appears to be potential title IX compliance issues after switching the aid from need based to traditional athletic scholarships.

[bison137]

Welcome LeopardBall

A main point about the scholarship scenario is that the schools will not be spending anymore on football, just simply switching the funds already spent on need based aid to traditional scholarships. The NCAA already considers the PL a "scholarship league" and only categorizes the Ivies and Pioneer League as non-scholarship. The real issue appears to be potential title IX compliance issues after switching the aid from need based to traditional athletic scholarships.


Which means there will be significant additional expenditures for many of the schools.

[Pard94]

I have a hard time believing that too many of the schools themselves are actually on board with schollies. Sure all the fans and booster groups are, but what about the real decision makers on campuses? Tuitions are up, applications are down or at least they were last year due to economic troubles, and donations are way down across the board. It would sound crazy to propose more scholarships to a board of academic minded people who are intent on keeping the academic prowess of the Patriot League were it is. Sure, at some point something has to give, but until people stop using the economy as an excuse and some of these schools see numbers returning to normal, I think you'll see Fordham move on with plenty of teams vying for the opening in a league growing in recognition

Hey Leopardball!!! Welcome to the AGS. Always nice to have another Leopard in the pride. Make sure you joins us over on the Lafayette board as well. Here's the link...


http://lafayettesports.myfreeforum.org/

[Franks Tanks]

Which means there will be significant additional expenditures for many of the schools.

Correct. But we are not talking about an increase in the $ spent on football which would never ever fly. I guess it would have to be presented as additional opprotunites for women and getting better STUDENT-athletes, and this it may get a sniff.

[LeopardBall10]

Welcome LeopardBall

A main point about the scholarship scenario is that the schools will not be spending anymore on football, just simply switching the funds already spent on need based aid to traditional scholarships. The NCAA already considers the PL a "scholarship league" and only categorizes the Ivies and Pioneer League as non-scholarship. The real issue appears to be potential title IX compliance issues after switching the aid from need based to traditional athletic scholarships.

Thanks for the welcome, and I would agree, except that none of the academics at these schools want to think of themselves as a scholarship league. They view scholarships differently than the need-based programs and are, quite honestly, closed minded to the idea of adding more to more sports. There have already been examinations on campuses looking at the "academic struggles" of scholarship athletes in other sports, especially after Fordham announced their plans. Most of the people behind the scenes see the promotion of scholarships as a changing of culture, one that they do not want to bring to what they see as an academic first conference.

[Pard94]

Thanks for the welcome, and I would agree, except that none of the academics at these schools want to think of themselves as a scholarship league. They view scholarships differently than the need-based programs and are, quite honestly, closed minded to the idea of adding more to more sports. There have already been examinations on campuses looking at the "academic struggles" of scholarship athletes in other sports, especially after Fordham announced their plans. Most of the people behind the scenes see the promotion of scholarships as a changing of culture, one that they do not want to bring to what they see as an academic first conference.

Yes. Agreed. This is well "covered ground". I think we all probably agree that the number 1 obstacle, at least at Lafayette, is the elitist attitude that exists within a small but very vocal group of faculty members who could never admit that scholarships could ever enhance the culture at Lafayette. Such a concession, in their mind, would lessen their significance on campus. Power to the eggheads.

[RichH2]

Welcome aboard LeopardBall10, academicians will never truly support merit aid for athletes as opposed to the top HS students . Regardless, we are a scholarship league now, just not for football. Merit aid may be awarded in every other sport. Issue is really $$$$, altho they may cloak it with some spurious mumbo-jumbo

[Pard94]

Welcome aboard LeopardBall10, academicians will never truly support merit aid for athletes as opposed to the top HS students . Regardless, we are a scholarship league now, just not for football. Merit aid may be awarded in every other sport. Issue is really $$$$, altho they may cloak it with some spurious mumbo-jumbo

Don't underestimate the spurious mumbo jumbo at Lafayette. I think the $$$ case can be made. It's the mumbo jumbo to which the eggheads cling.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

With the Patriot League leading the way in APR rates every year in all sorts of sports, the mumbo jumbo is becoming more and more of a dead argument IMO. Athletes stay in school and graduate, at a rate much higher than other Division I teams - and with a much harder courseload as well.

Continue pointing out the hypocrisy. It will die eventually.

[RichH2]

Absolutely agree LFN, which is why I call it mumbo jumbo. Scary thing to me is the ability of such people to actually believe that there is some specific mantra to football , ala Ivies, mandating different treat ment for football for philosophical reasons as opposed to financial , which is real.

[Kramden]

Let's take the top academic schools from the CAA (Nova, RIchmond, W&M) and put them witht he PL teams when schollies become avaialble. Gate also has to lower its acdemic standards just a bit. I think their erosion in competitiveness over the past 30 years comes more from that than the schollies. They can find the money for the right kid as long as he is not from money himself.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Let's take the top academic schools from the CAA (Nova, RIchmond, W&M) and put them witht he PL teams when schollies become avaialble. Gate also has to lower its acdemic standards just a bit. I think their erosion in competitiveness over the past 30 years comes more from that than the schollies. They can find the money for the right kid as long as he is not from money himself.

Discussed ad nauseum. Each was on the cusp of Patriot membership at one point or another, and each bailed due to PL policies. Would you bail on success in the CAA coupled with outstanding academics? I didn't think so.

Only if the "new" patriot equals or surpasses the CAA on the field for a sustained period, coupled with a breakdown of the CAA, would this even be a remote possibility. We had our chance and we blew it.

As for lower standards at Colgate - forget it. Everyone complies with the same academic index.

[Kramden]

Wishful thinking I suppose. There was just a time when the Colgates and Lehighs would be competitive with the W&M's and Novas and the old Yankee Conference was a notch lower than them; not now.

[ngineer]

Let's all just wait until December 13 and see whether the PL Presidents deliver us a lump of coal for our stockings or present under the tree. The landscape of college athletics changes so frequently; nothing is etched in stone anymore.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Let's all just wait until December 13

Never. It's much more entertaining to sit here and incorrectly speculate and assume.

[Kramden]

Or just complain that our teams can be much more competitive. The Patriot League is an Ivy Wanna Be. I wish they wanted to be more like other great academic schools that play better football: The Academies, Duke, Furman, Wofford, Nova, Richmond, W&M, etc.

[Go...gate]

Or just complain that our teams can be much more competitive. The Patriot League is an Ivy Wanna Be. I wish they wanted to be more like other great academic schools that play better football: The Academies, Stanford, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Wake Forest, Notre Dame, Duke, Furman, Wofford, Nova, Richmond, W&M, etc.

It can be done.