The future of baseball

[LAWdiddy]

Jason Heyward, Atlanta Braves. You watch, starting next season

[93henfan]

He's certainly looked good down on the farm.

[NHwildEcat]

Less home runs, less impressive pitchers but a cleaner version of the game.

[GannonFan]

Uh, the Phils still have everyone back from this year's team, plus they could be calling up some of those studs they managed to hold back from the Halladay trade when they changed course and basically stole Cliff Lee from the Indians. Heck, if things continue, Phils could be looking for a 3-peat while also seeking a 4th staright NL East title. The Phils aren't going away anytime soon.

[NHwildEcat]

Uh, the Phils still have everyone back from this year's team, plus they could be calling up some of those studs they managed to hold back from the Halladay trade when they changed course and basically stole Cliff Lee from the Indians. Heck, if things continue, Phils could be looking for a 3-peat while also seeking a 4th staright NL East title. The Phils aren't going away anytime soon.

Very true. And with no real team within that division to threaten they are sitting in a very nice spot. If they keep their core intact and keep adding the right pieces then they should be all set. I don't seem them repeating now though, while the chance is obviously there, I think the Yankees can probably do something to stop that from happening.

[GannonFan]

Very true. And with no real team within that division to threaten they are sitting in a very nice spot. If they keep their core intact and keep adding the right pieces then they should be all set. I don't seem them repeating now though, while the chance is obviously there, I think the Yankees can probably do something to stop that from happening.

I wouldn't write the Braves off as not threatening - remember, they weren't too far behind Colorado for the Wild Card this year and were probably the 5th best team in the National League. And the original poster is right, the Braves have a bunch of young guys that will be pretty good eventually. And you never know about the Marlins, they have good years that come out of nowhere, so while they are not a consistent threat they could pop up one year and be a problem. Can't really see the Mets threatening until they make major changes - that team is so messed up mentally they can never sustain anything.

But yes, the Phils have everyone under contract for next year (except Brett Myers who's probably gone - but Lee more than replaces him). In 2011 is when they first start to bump up against potential issues - Lee, Werth, and Blanton are FA's in 2011. The Phils have some stud OF prospects coming up and obviously have an arm like Drabek that should be here by 2011 at the latest, but prospects are prospects until you see what they have. But 2010 shouldn't be any different than this year - everyone is in their prime and under contract.

As for this year, heck, I'd love to see the Yankees in the WS rather than the Angels. I'd be worried about playing a team like the Angels with the starting pitching they have. I think the Yanks staff is overrated at this point and while I respect Rivera in the pen, I think the Phils can get to the guys like Hughes and Jabba - I think the middle relief for the Yanks is way overstated too - this idea that if the Yanks are winning by the end of the 5th they should win is kinda silly. I'm not sure they even get by the Angels to be honest. But I would love the Phils getting to hit in that park again against the pitching the Yanks would put out there, especially if the Yanks try to pitch Sabbathia twice on short rest against the Phils.

While I don't think the Yanks beat the Angels, I'm sticking with the predication Jimmy Rollins made before the year started - the WS will be the Yanks versus the Phils and the Phils will win. The guy hasn't been wrong about anything for about 3 years now so I'll stick with the hot hand. xthumbsupx

[appfan2008]

Uh, the Phils still have everyone back from this year's team, plus they could be calling up some of those studs they managed to hold back from the Halladay trade when they changed course and basically stole Cliff Lee from the Indians. Heck, if things continue, Phils could be looking for a 3-peat while also seeking a 4th staright NL East title. The Phils aren't going away anytime soon.

long way to go to catch the braves for most nl east titles in a row haha!!!

[GannonFan]

long way to go to catch the braves for most nl east titles in a row haha!!!

Yeah, that's really ruining my enjoyment of this run right now. xlolx Of course, if the Phillies repeat and have another parade down Broad Street again this year, that will be one more World Series title than the Braves won during their run of division titles and the Phils would've done it in about a decade less time. xthumbsupx

[bluehenbillk]

It's all about the parades.

[LAWdiddy]

Listen, I think hte Braves, no homerism, may be favorites in the NL as a whole next year, especially if they sign a righthanded bat to play left field, somebody like jason bay or matt holliday, and can unload either tim hudson or derek lowe to free up payroll. with a full year of tommy hanson, and in all likelihood, heyward winning the RF job out of spring training, the Braves will win the NL East next year

[LAWdiddy]

Listen, no homerism, the Braves might be the favorites to win the NL as a whole next year. Especially if they are able to sign a righthanded bat to play left field, such as Jason Bay or Matt Holliday, and can dump Lowe or let Hudson go to free payroll. Factor in a full season of Tommy Hanson, who will win NL ROY this year, and in all likelihood a Jason Heyward that will win the rightfielder job out of spring training, and the Braves are back.

[GannonFan]

Listen, I think hte Braves, no homerism, may be favorites in the NL as a whole next year, especially if they sign a righthanded bat to play left field, somebody like jason bay or matt holliday, and can unload either tim hudson or derek lowe to free up payroll. with a full year of tommy hanson, and in all likelihood, heyward winning the RF job out of spring training, the Braves will win the NL East next year

Dude, you just have to be kidding. The Phillies are returning their entire lineup. The Phils are returning their enitre starting pitching staff, which includes getting a full year out of Cliff Lee where this year they only had him for 2 months. The Phillies actually have a very good farm system, as evidenced by what they could do to get Lee (a trade in which they ultimately gave up all of one legit prospect, a kid from Single A who's 19 years old). And this is a Phillies team that could very well be the two-time defending WS champs. And Ibanez is the only positional player over 31.

How do you figure a team that returns everybody, could be the two time WS defending champs, is in their prime, and makes so much money now that they could even add to the roster, is not going to be the favorites to at least win the division next year, the same division they've won 3 times in a row now?

[LAWdiddy]

First off, your pitching staff is nowhere NEAR as good as the Braves. That can't be argued. Secondly, I'm arguing because when we got rid of the dead weight (Francoeur, stopped starting Kelly Johnson, upgrade in center from Schafer to McLouth, dropped Jeff Bennett) we excelled. Which team had the best record in the national league after the ASB this year? That's right, the Atlanta Braves. You add a bat in Garret Anderson's place, and put an absolute stud, Jason Heyward, in RF, and the Braves will be favorites in the NL East.

[NHwildEcat]

Nationals are favored by most baseball insiders to win the NL East...facts are facts fellas!

[Fear the Bird]

Someday the Phillies will get their due respect

And either J.A. Happ or Chris Coghlan will win NL Rookie of the Year

[GannonFan]

First off, your pitching staff is nowhere NEAR as good as the Braves. That can't be argued. Secondly, I'm arguing because when we got rid of the dead weight (Francoeur, stopped starting Kelly Johnson, upgrade in center from Schafer to McLouth, dropped Jeff Bennett) we excelled. Which team had the best record in the national league after the ASB this year? That's right, the Atlanta Braves. You add a bat in Garret Anderson's place, and put an absolute stud, Jason Heyward, in RF, and the Braves will be favorites in the NL East.

Seriously, man, you're going to end up putting this thread into the Smack section with ridiculous ideas like that. Again, you're talking about pre-season predictions regarding next year - again, a year that could see the Phillies trying to defend 2 straight World Series Titles, and doing so by returning everybody from their current roster (at least all the position players and starting pitchers). Never in a million years will a team that is returning basically everybody and having the post season success the Phils will have had will not be the consensus, and perhaps unanimous, favorites to win the division next year.

But let's take it position by position:

1B Howard vs LaRoche or whomever the braves bring in - advantage Phillies
2B Utley vs Prado - advantage Phillies
SS Rollins vs Escobar - advantage Phillies
3B Chipper vs Feliz - advantage Braves
LF Ibanez vs Anderson or whomever the braves bring in - advantage Phillies
CF Victorino vs Church or McLouth - advantage Phillies
RF Werth vs Church or the rookie Heyward - advantage Phillies
C Ruiz vs McCann - advantage Braves

So the Phis have the advantage at every position other than 3B and C

Starting pitching isn't as far apart as you think.

Ace Lee vs Lowe - advantage Phillies
#2 Starter Hamels vs Jurrjens - draw
#3 Starter Vasquez vs Blanton - advantage Braves (but Blanton's got a fair amount of post-season success to fall back on)
#4 Hanson vs Happ - draw (and that's even considering that Happ's going to beat Hanson for the ROY in the NL this year)
#5 probably advantage Braves, for argument's sake

So of the 5 starting pitchers, the Phils have the best ace, and the Braves have the best #3 and #5 pitcher, with the other two spots being even. I don't know, doesn't seem to be too far apart there.

And bullpens change so much from year to year that it's silly to look at them now - heck, the Phils had the best bullpen since 1979 when they won the WS in '08, then in '09 they had one of the worst, even with the same personnel, and now in the playoffs in '09 they may have one of the best again. Too hard to predict bullpen success.

So, how do you figure when the Phils have an overwhelming advantage in positional players, the teams are pretty even in starting pitching, and the Phils will have had 3 years of extremely successful post-season baseball (compared to zero for the Braves) that the pundits and every other baseball observer will peg the Braves as the favorites in the NL East next year? xrotatehx

[NHwildEcat]

Can I just say from an unbiased opinion of the NL East that next year the division will/is expected to shape up as follows: Phillies, Braves, Marlins, Nationals, Mets...the last two are my opinion but the first three are def the consensus.

[LAWdiddy]

Listen, if we bring in Jason Bay or Matt Holliday i give them an edge over Werth. Hanson had better stats in every category but wins (one less in about a month and a half less time) than Happ. Escobar is better than Rollins now. He has overtaken Rollins. Period

[NHwildEcat]

Listen, if we bring in Jason Bay or Matt Holliday i give them an edge over Werth. Hanson had better stats in every category but wins (one less in about a month and a half less time) than Happ. Escobar is better than Rollins now. He has overtaken Rollins. Period

Dude...your not getting eithe Bay or Holliday...too pricey for ya!

[GannonFan]

Listen, if we bring in Jason Bay or Matt Holliday i give them an edge over Werth. Hanson had better stats in every category but wins (one less in about a month and a half less time) than Happ. Escobar is better than Rollins now. He has overtaken Rollins. Period

First of all, how can you make any discernible difference between Werth and Bay? They're almost identical when it comes to stats, both offensive and defensive, so that's a wash. And Holliday is an upgrade in terms of batting average (his power numbers aren't any better than Werth and Bay), but he's also a downgrade defensively compared to those two (and that was before the gaffe in the playoffs).

And Hanson versus Happ is a dead heat (and no Hanson didn't have better stats in every category - Happ had more complete games, more shutouts, and a better ERA+ (ERA corrected for home ballpark)). And plus Happ did his work in the bullpen as well as starting, and did it in the heat of a pennant race where his team actually won the division. There's no way Hanson's winning ROY over Happ - you're just going to have to deal with it.

And as for Rollins being behind Escobar, Rollins will have to remember that after he picks up his 3rd straight Gold Glove this year, perhaps after he's done riding a parade down Broad Street in Philly. xrolleyesx

[LAWdiddy]

Offensively Escobar is better and Hanson will win the award. if he doesnt, McCutchen wil

[gmoney55]

long way to go to catch the braves for most nl east titles in a row haha!!!

Yet the Phillies have already tied them in WS titles, which is all that matters.

[LAWdiddy]

the braves have won 3 WS titles actually. once in Boston, once in Milwaukee, and in 95 they won one in Atlanta

[UNCBears2010]

Offensively Escobar is better and Hanson will win the award. if he doesnt, McCutchen wil

Escobar is not better than Rollins offensively, and Rollins is easily better overall. Hanson and McCutchen will probably be #3 and #4 in ROY voting behild Happ and Coghlan.

Also, the Braves won't be better than the Rockies next year, either.

[gmoney55]

This might be the most random thread I've seen on this board....during the playoffs, touting a prospect and saying you are better on paper than a team that is going to win its 2nd straight World Series title. How about the other aspects of the Braves like Chipper is about to fall apart, Escobar is the fourth-best SS in the division, Vazquez could easily revert to what he has always been before this year, no proven corner OF (I'd like to actually see the Braves fork over the $$$ for Bay/Holliday before I think they are coming), with LaRoche as a free agent no proven first baseman, really no proven second baseman. You did a great job cleaning up mainly against two teams that had quit at the end of the year (Mets and Nats), but how much does that really mean?

[gmoney55]

the braves have won 3 WS titles actually. once in Boston, once in Milwaukee, and in 95 they won one in Atlanta

OK I obviously meant in this era....and if you really care about titles that happened in a different city, more power to ya.

[gmoney55]

Can I just say from an unbiased opinion of the NL East that next year the division will/is expected to shape up as follows: Phillies, Braves, Marlins, Nationals, Mets...the last two are my opinion but the first three are def the consensus.

Eh, the Mets won 97, 88 and 89 games from 06-08. They'll have four or five All-Star caliber players and 35-40 million to spend in the offseason. I've given up on thinking they can ever overtake this Phillies group and know they'll blow it when it comes time to win in September/big games, but I wouldn't exactly book them for fourth/fifth, especially with the Marlins expected to cut payroll as usual.

[LAWdiddy]

Haha, Prado came alive and proved himself at 2nd. Heyward is going to be rookie of the year next year. There's no way in hell Coughlan wins ROY, and Hanson has better stats than Happ. The Phillies are not going to win the World Series this year, the Angels will. Over the Dodgers. Also, we'll be SOOOO much better than the Rockies next year. Like it's not even close. If you took the Braves roster at the end of the season and the Rockies at the end and you played a full 162 game season and compare those teams the Braves win going away. and how bout HAPP, WALKING IN THE GO-AHEAD RUN IN THE BOTTOM OF THE 8TH IN THE PLAYOFFS! CLUTCH!

[UNCBears2010]

Haha, Prado came alive and proved himself at 2nd. Heyward is going to be rookie of the year next year. There's no way in hell Coughlan wins ROY, and Hanson has better stats than Happ. The Phillies are not going to win the World Series this year, the Angels will. Over the Dodgers. Also, we'll be SOOOO much better than the Rockies next year. Like it's not even close. If you took the Braves roster at the end of the season and the Rockies at the end and you played a full 162 game season and compare those teams the Braves win going away. and how bout HAPP, WALKING IN THE GO-AHEAD RUN IN THE BOTTOM OF THE 8TH IN THE PLAYOFFS! CLUTCH!
Oh, is that why the Rockies had the best record in the NL over the last 2/3 of the season and blew the Braves away for the Wild Card in the last two weeks?

Let's compare the rosters for next season:

C - McCann vs Iannetta; Advantage: Braves, unless Iannetta hits for average
1B - LaRoche vs Helton; Advantage: Rockies,
2B - Prado vs Barmes/Young; Advantage: Push
3B - Chipper vs Stewart; Advantage: Braves
SS - Escobar vs Tulo; Advantage: Rockies
LF - Anderson vs Smith; Advantage: Rockies
CF - McLouth vs Fowler; Advantage: Braves
RF - Church/Heyward vs Gonzalez; Advantage: Rockies

Ace - Hanson vs Jimenez; Advantage: Push
#2 - Vazquez vs Cook; Advantage: Push
#3 - Jurrjens vs de la Rosa; Advantage: Rockies
#4 - Hudson vs Francis; Advantage: Push
#5 - Lowe vs Hammel; Advantage: Rockies

Closer - Soriano vs Street; Advantage: Rockies

While the Braves may have better players at the top end of their team, the Rockies are easily the deeper of the two teams. I think we'll have 10 more wins than the Braves next year.

[seantaylor]

The Braves are absolute garbage and an ancient team. Way too old of a team to compete.

[LAWdiddy]

Oh, is that why the Rockies had the best record in the NL over the last 2/3 of the season and blew the Braves away for the Wild Card in the last two weeks?

Let's compare the rosters for next season:

C - McCann vs Iannetta; Advantage: Braves, unless Iannetta hits for average
1B - LaRoche vs Helton; Advantage: Rockies,
2B - Prado vs Barmes/Young; Advantage: Push
3B - Chipper vs Stewart; Advantage: Braves
SS - Escobar vs Tulo; Advantage: Rockies
LF - Anderson vs Smith; Advantage: Rockies
CF - McLouth vs Fowler; Advantage: Braves
RF - Church/Heyward vs Gonzalez; Advantage: Rockies

Ace - Hanson vs Jimenez; Advantage: Push
#2 - Vazquez vs Cook; Advantage: Push
#3 - Jurrjens vs de la Rosa; Advantage: Rockies
#4 - Hudson vs Francis; Advantage: Push
#5 - Lowe vs Hammel; Advantage: Rockies

Closer - Soriano vs Street; Advantage: Rockies

While the Braves may have better players at the top end of their team, the Rockies are easily the deeper of the two teams. I think we'll have 10 more wins than the Braves next year.

This is ridiculous. First off, on what planet is Jorge de la Rosa better than Jair Jurrjens, who posted a sub-3 ERA again for us this year? Hanson is going to be great, but he's not our ace just yet. If you honestly think Gonzalez is better than Heyward you're out of your frekaing mind. I wouldn't say LaRoche and Helton is advantage either way. Especially when you look at Rochey's second half and overall power numbers. I wouldn't put Tulo ahead of Esco, I would have them as a push, but I wouldn't be sad about having either guy. GARRET ANDERSON WON'T BE BACK WITH US NEXT YEAR!!! So in left we will either have Matt Diaz, who was great last year, or a free agent like Bay or Holliday, or trade for a guy like Nelson Cruz.

[Franks Tanks]

This is ridiculous. First off, on what planet is Jorge de la Rosa better than Jair Jurrjens, who posted a sub-3 ERA again for us this year? Hanson is going to be great, but he's not our ace just yet. If you honestly think Gonzalez is better than Heyward you're out of your frekaing mind. I wouldn't say LaRoche and Helton is advantage either way. Especially when you look at Rochey's second half and overall power numbers. I wouldn't put Tulo ahead of Esco, I would have them as a push, but I wouldn't be sad about having either guy. GARRET ANDERSON WON'T BE BACK WITH US NEXT YEAR!!! So in left we will either have Matt Diaz, who was great last year, or a free agent like Bay or Holliday, or trade for a guy like Nelson Cruz.

Law Diddy, where is you been? We be missing you.

[UNCBears2010]

This is ridiculous. First off, on what planet is Jorge de la Rosa better than Jair Jurrjens, who posted a sub-3 ERA again for us this year? Hanson is going to be great, but he's not our ace just yet. If you honestly think Gonzalez is better than Heyward you're out of your frekaing mind. I wouldn't say LaRoche and Helton is advantage either way. Especially when you look at Rochey's second half and overall power numbers. I wouldn't put Tulo ahead of Esco, I would have them as a push, but I wouldn't be sad about having either guy. GARRET ANDERSON WON'T BE BACK WITH US NEXT YEAR!!! So in left we will either have Matt Diaz, who was great last year, or a free agent like Bay or Holliday, or trade for a guy like Nelson Cruz.

I'll addess your points one at a time:

Jurrjens didn't pitch in Coors Field, if Rockies' hitters are penalized for it, our pitchers have to be given credit for it. Maybe some homerism there on my part, but it's close.

I think Hanson will be your best pitcher next year, so I put him as the ace.

If you think Heyward is going to be better than Gonzalez next year, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. What was Heyward doing this October while Gonzalez was hitting .600 in the playoffs?

Helton is a .327 career hitter, was top 5 in the NL in average this year, plays outstanding defense and still has very good gap power. Also, call me when they put LaRoche in the Hall of Fame...

You actually think Escobar is as good as Tulowitzki!xlolxxlolxxlolx Troy Tulowitzki is one of the two best shortstops in baseball, he'll finish in the top 5, probably the top 3, of NL MVP voting. Escobar is one of the top 4 shortstops in the NL East, though, so at least he has that going for him.xlolx

You're not getting Holliday or Bay, and once Nelson Cruz gets out of that band box in Texas, he won't be anything special, so I'll assume your LF is going to be Matt Diaz and I'll still take Seth Smith.

[seantaylor]

Law boy is crazy. Funnel cake is better than Tulo? Laughable. Who is Jason Heyward? Never heard of him.

[LAWdiddy]

You have never heard of him? Minor league player of the year? Drawing comparisons to Darryl Strawberry

[I Bleed Purple]

I'll addess your points one at a time:


And I'll address just one.

To think, believe, or even consider that the Rockies have a better starting staff than the Braves is nothing short of ludicrous.

Cook had 4+ ERA ON THE ROAD

Jimenez had a 3.58 ERA ON THE ROAD.

And you're saying they push against guys with sub 3 ERAs?

Braves had the BEST ERA among starting pitchers in the NL. Including the relievers, they STILL had a better road ERA than Colorado.

There is absolutely no possible way the Rockies' staff will be better than the Braves' staff IF those five guys you mention stay with the Braves. NO possible way.

[seantaylor]

You have never heard of him? Minor league player of the year? Drawing comparisons to Darryl Strawberry


Wow, minor league huh? How did that minor league stud Jordan Schaffer turn out? Just looked up Heywards stats. How in the hell did he win the MLPOY with that?