Who has the better program?

[UNIFanSince1983]

I just wanted to ask this question, and get answers from some non homers. A few of the irrational NDSU posters have been trying to say they have a better program that UNI, and I just wanted to see what others thought. We are not talking about team this year we are talking about overall program. So tell me what you think. Maybe I am being the irrational one!

Thank you! :)

[WestCoastAggie]

Can we see some stats from both sides of this argument?

[spdram]

Agreed how about someone from each "camp" putting sime info up to allow us with marginal knowledge to make a decision.

[skinny_uncle]

Program implies consistent success. Montana has the longest streak in the playoffs, so I'll nominate them.

[93henfan]

Is there even an argument at this point (between the two listed)?

[skinny_uncle]

Stats for this year can be found at NCAA stats (http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/mainpage.jsp?year=2009).
Historical data can be found at college football data warehouse (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa_team_index.php).

[skinny_uncle]

I also love the name UNIFanSince1983. We won a national title in 1983 and beat the Panthers in corn country that year.
xnodx

[UNIFanSince1983]

I would have put more options, but at this point I am trying to see if I was being irrational for thinking our program was better than NDSUs. Some of their fans are really trying to discredit us. They want to say they have the better team this year, but we proved that wrong so now they claim to have the better program because they won a couple of D2 national championships. To me, though, we need to not include D2 in this since we are now both Full D1 programs. So to me the answer is obvious. We have won or shared 13 conference titles in 23 years. They have only been fully D1 for 2 years. So to me it is no contest, but maybe it isn't right to fully discredit their D2 success.

[skinny_uncle]

I would have put more options, but at this point I am trying to see if I was being irrational for thinking our program was better than NDSUs. Some of their fans are really trying to discredit us. They want to say they have the better team this year, but we proved that wrong so now they claim to have the better program because they won a couple of D2 national championships. To me, though, we need to not include D2 in this since we are now both Full D1 programs. So to me the answer is obvious. We have won or shared 13 conference titles in 23 years. They have only been fully D1 for 2 years. So to me it is no contest, but maybe it isn't right to fully discredit their D2 success.
It all depends on the criteria you select. Do we look at the last century or something more currently relevant like the last 5-10 years? We need a definition of "program".

[93henfan]

It all depends on the criteria you select. Do we look at the last century or something more currently relevant like the last 5-10 years? We need a definition of "program".

Absolutely right. Timeframe makes all the difference. I think the Ivy's blow us all away if you want to go back to the beginning!

[Ronbo]

Program implies consistent success. Montana has the longest streak in the playoffs, so I'll nominate them.

A good program consists of:xrulesx

1. A great stadium filled every game
2. Statewide support of fans
3. Winning tradition
4. Great tailgating
5. High dollar clothing and accessories sales
6. Unfair recruiting advantage over the other schools in the Conference
7. An active message board with thousands of members

[griz8791]

I went to both Bisonville and PantherNation last night and wouldn't exactly call either a low-traffic site.

[93henfan]

A good program consists of:xrulesx

2. Statewide support of fans


That's the only one I'll disagree with. States like Montana, Delaware, and the Dakotas have a real advantage here.

How can an FCS in Pennsylvania, Iowa, California, Florida, etc. ever hope to have a statewide fanbase? Heck, even without FBS teams, how could a team in Virginia garner the whole state's support (see Richmond, W&M, JMU, and now ODU)?

[Ronbo]

If you have 20,000 at the game and another 200,000 fans watching on TV statewide then you have good statewide support. If a Richmond or Villanova have 8000 in their seats and only a few thousand watching their game on TV then they can't be considered a great program. IMO

[griz8791]

I don't think Ronbo is using "statewide" to mean "unanimous." I suspect he means the program's fans are not limited to one small part of the state or one metro area. For example, I assume Villanova has fans and alums all up and down the eastern seaboard, not just metropolitan Philadelphia.

Edit: Better just let him speak for himself. My bad.

[crusader11]

If you have 20,000 at the game and another 200,000 fans watching on TV statewide then you have good statewide support. If a Richmond or Villanova have 8000 in their seats and only a few thousand watching their game on TV then they can't be considered a great program. IMO

That's ridiculous. We all can't be from Montana where the only think happening on a Saturday afternoon or night is the football game.

So because Richmond won the national championship last year, is the number 1 team this year, and poised to have another deep run in the playoffs, they are not a "great program" because not enough people follow them? RIDICULOUS!

[93henfan]

I don't think Ronbo is using "statewide" to mean "unanimous." I suspect he means the program's fans are not limited to one small part of the state or one metro area. For example, I assume Villanova has fans and alums all up and down the eastern seaboard, not just metropolitan Philadelphia.

Edit: Better just let him speak for himself. My bad.

Let's make Villanova's situation similar to Montana's:

Get rid of Pitt. Get rid of Penn State. Make every FCS in the state go away except for one that is decent ever so often, say Lehigh, to be the equivalent of Montana State.

Now take away Villanova's always nationally competitive Big East basketball program.

Now take away the Philadelphia Eagles, Phillies, Sixers, Flyers and the Pittsburgh Steelers, Penguins, and Pirates.

Now you have Montana's situation. Think Nova's fanbase and interest goes up a bit in PA?

Might not be the best comparison, but be thankful for the monopoly you have there in Montana. I'm certainly thankful for the great situation the Hens have here in Delaware. xnodx

Btw, the part of PA farthest from all the action in Philly and Pittsburgh is State College. The largest stadium in college football just happens to have evolved there.

[mcveyrl]

If you have 20,000 at the game and another 200,000 fans watching on TV statewide then you have good statewide support. If a Richmond or Villanova have 8000 in their seats and only a few thousand watching their game on TV then they can't be considered a great program. IMO

So basically Montana is the only great program. xrolleyesx

Congrats on being in the middle of nowhere (football-wise of course).

I still think there are only a few "great" programs in FCS. To me, they are (in no particular order) Montana, ASU, Delaware, and Ga. So (yes, they are still a great program, particularly with their history). Maybe a few others on the fringe.

But I digress. For this thread, as others have stated, you have to define your parameters. If we are talking success at any level and for each program's duration, it's close. NDSU was a great DII program. If we're just talking FCS, then it's no contest.

[Ronbo]

That's ridiculous. We all can't be from Montana where the only think happening on a Saturday afternoon or night is the football game.

So because Richmond won the national championship last year, is the number 1 team this year, and poised to have another deep run in the playoffs, they are not a "great program" because not enough people follow them? RIDICULOUS!

Exactly. Great team, yes. Great program? It takes more than winning. People must care or you are lost at sea barking at the moon.

[WestCoastAggie]

I'm surprised Montana doesn't have a bigger stadium. They have one heck of a fanbase.

BTW: Will the Griz ever think of joining the WAC of Mtn. West?

[WestCoastAggie]

Oh and I voted for UNI!

[griz8791]

Let's make Villanova's situation similar to Montana's:

Get rid of Pitt. Get rid of Penn State. Make every FCS in the state go away except for one that is decent ever so often, say Lehigh, to be the equivalent of Montana State.

Now take away Villanova's always nationally competitive Big East basketball program.

Now take away the Philadelphia Eagles, Phillies, Sixers, Flyers and the Pittsburgh Steelers, Penguins, and Pirates.

Now you have Montana's situation. Think Nova's fanbase and interest goes up a bit in PA?

Might not be the best comparison, but be thankful for the monopoly you have there in Montana. I'm certainly thankful for the great situation the Hens have here in Delaware. xnodx

Btw, the part of PA farthest from all the action in Philly and Pittsburgh is State College. The largest stadium in college football just happens to have evolved there.

Good points. Just so we're clear, I wasn't ripping on Villanova. My threshold for "statewide" support is lower than Ronbo's and under mine, Villanova's support is at least "statewide."

[crunifan]

Yeah, those damn FBS teams. If Iowa keeps winning like this, I may have to leave this state. I'm not sure I can take these delusions of national titles.

[gobison.gsb]

Wow. Way to strike when we're down.
BTW, the point is moot since they're both equally great teams. I doesn't take a freakin genius to point that out.




Oh and I didn't vote 'cause it's not even worth it.

[Big Cats]

Oh and I didn't vote 'cause it's not even worth it.


Ditto here. This is the silliest poll I have ever seen on AGS.

[GoAgs72]

Polls as well as statistics can be used to prove any point you wish to make depending upon how their worded and your definitions. I'm not voting.

[ValleyChamp]

lol at the results so far.

[darell1976]

A good program consists of:xrulesx

1. A great stadium filled every game
2. Statewide support of fans
3. Winning tradition
4. Great tailgating
5. High dollar clothing and accessories sales
6. Unfair recruiting advantage over the other schools in the Conference
7. An active message board with thousands of members

As far as NDSU goes...they have 1,2,3,4,5,7 for sure....#6 I doubt it. Especially when UND becomes a full member in 2012 and fights for a playoff spot every year their recruiting is going to take a hit up here especailly with a season like they have now.

[UNIFanSince1983]

I apologize as I realize this is a pretty bad thread. I was not really trying to pile on all of the NDSU fans. I know they have a good team and are a good program. I just have a hard time with some of the fans who even when they are 1-5 and lost to us by 15 points they still think they are better than us. I would name names, but people should realize who the 2 delusional Bizon fans on this board are.

I guess I should have thought more before I posted this. Really program does have so many different parameters, that you can set them anyway you want to get them to come out the way you want them to in the argument between these two teams.

If you count everything they did in D2, if you count the support they have in their state, and the fact that they draw more people on average to their games then they have us. If we strictly are going on D1 or are just going back 10-15 years then we have them. I guess I was just getting annoyed by some people who, I think just say things to get under peoples skin, and bingo they got me.

[griz8791]

Good post.

[TCisMYhero]

If you have 20,000 at the game and another 200,000 fans watching on TV statewide then you have good statewide support. If a Richmond or Villanova have 8000 in their seats and only a few thousand watching their game on TV then they can't be considered a great program. IMO

xflaggedx So you're telling me if Richmond goes back to back, makes 5 more playoffs and they're still not pulling in 15k a game with 100k viewers, they're not a good program? Program is about on-field success, not how many bandwagon followers you have.

[mcveyrl]

xflaggedx So you're telling me if Richmond goes back to back, makes 5 more playoffs and they're still not pulling in 15k a game with 100k viewers, they're not a good program? Program is about on-field success, not how many bandwagon followers you have.

That's what he's saying. It doesn't matter that the 200,000 watching on TV get three channels -- two of 'em are the swap shop and the other is Griz football. :D

[PantherRob82]

Wow. Way to strike when we're down.
BTW, the point is moot since they're both equally great teams. I doesn't take a freakin genius to point that out.




Oh and I didn't vote 'cause it's not even worth it.

Both equally great? When? 2007?

[JohnStOnge]

I voted for NDSU based on the premise that what you're talking about is program level over the long term given the level at which the program was playing at the time. If that's the criterion, NDSU has had a better program.

You can go to http://michigan-football.com/ncaa/ncaa_1aa.htm and see summaries of performances of all the programs now in FCS. Northern Iowa is listed as having a slightly higher regular season winning percentage if you take it to four figures (0.6457 vs. 0.6456). And the game between the two isn't in the numbers yet so it's actually 0.6463 vs. 0.6445. However, North Dakota State has a much better post season winning percentage (0.729 vs. 0.543) which also gives the Bison a better overall winning percentage (0.652 vs. 0.640). Also, of course, North Dakota State has 9 national titles including 5 D-II national titles earned after that level instituted its playoff system. I don't know if UNI has any national championships at all and I'm pretty sure they don't have any earned through a playoff system.

I must say that I don't even see how the two programs can be compared if all you're considering is time in I-AA/FCS. North Dakota State just got here. It's not possible for one to make a judgement of how consistent they are as a FCS program over a reasonably long term because there's no reasonably long term available by which to judge them.

[NDB]

I apologize as I realize this is a pretty bad thread. I was not really trying to pile on all of the NDSU fans. I know they have a good team and are a good program. I just have a hard time with some of the fans who even when they are 1-5 and lost to us by 15 points they still think they are better than us.

You need to learn not to give a sh#t what other people post on message boards.

[NDB]

I haven't voted yet. I need more information about UNI.

1. Does your mascot have a name?
2. Do you have a hockey team?
3. Does the UNI-Dome serve funnel cakes?

[UNIFanSince1983]

1) yes his name is TC and he is consistently ranked in the top 10 in the nation
2) No, I believe we used to have a club team
3) No I do not believe it does

And yes I do know I need to stop giving a crap what people say, but I just have an argumentative personality. Just ask my friends sometimes I argue stuff I don't even believe just to argue with someone. :p

[newsbreaker]

Fan support has nothing to do with how "great" your program is. You could be the winningest program in history in front of 200 fans a game and be a "greater" program than a team that never wins before a crowd of 100,000.

NDSU is now a D-I program, and must be judged on that basis. As a D-I program, they are poor.

[NDB]

1) yes his name is TC and he is consistently ranked in the top 10 in the nation
2) No, I believe we used to have a club team
3) No I do not believe it does

And yes I do know I need to stop giving a crap what people say, but I just have an argumentative personality. Just ask my friends sometimes I argue stuff I don't even believe just to argue with someone. :p

no points for TC.
+1 for no hockey team.
-1 for no funnel cakes.

Tie Breaker. Farley has more hair than bohl.

Winner: UNI 42-27.

[joecooll6]

Stop lettin these irrational Bizon people get under your skin. Just stop. You're giving them the attention they are craving by even argueing with them.

They'll have a decent FCS program in time, but right now, anyone who has any sense knows UNI is worlds ahead as far as FCS programs go. I'm sure most of the crazy NDSU posters know too, but just dont want to admit it.

Just let it go.

[joecooll6]

If you have 20,000 at the game and another 200,000 fans watching on TV statewide then you have good statewide support. If a Richmond or Villanova have 8000 in their seats and only a few thousand watching their game on TV then they can't be considered a great program. IMO

Think that is completely unfiar. The schools that dont have BCS programs in their states are going to have more state wide support of course. You can still have a great FCS program without 200,000 people watching your games on TV.

[igo4uni]

Yeah, those damn FBS teams. If Iowa keeps winning like this, I may have to leave this state. I'm not sure I can take these delusions of national titles.

I can't even leave my house without some knucklehead Iowa fan saying "how 'bout dose hawks!" Why oh why couldn't we have won in Iowa City??xbawlingxxbawlingxxbawlingxxbawlingxxbawling xxbawlingxxbawlingxxbawlingxxbawlingxxbawlingxxbaw lingx