Colgate and Holy Cross

[crusader11]

I brought this up in the Colgate vs. Cornell game thread, but thought this question could use its own thread since I believe it would generate a lot of interest.

Here's the proposed hypothetical scenario (I know, I am looking very, very far ahead, but there is a distinct possibility this could happen). Right now, Colgate is 5-0 and Holy Cross is 4-0. Both teams seem poised to both be undefeated for their date on October 24th at Fitton Field. Now, here's the question, regardless of who wins that game, would an 10-1 Colgate team or 10-1 Holy Cross team receive an at-large bid to the playoffs? The only loss, obviously, coming at the hands of the other team.

I realize that neither team plays the toughest of schedules, but that does not make them not a quality football team. Personally, I think it would be a shame if a 10-1 team with the only blemish on the schedule to the conference champ didn't get into the playoffs.

Also, it would be remiss of me to also not include Lafayette in this discussion, since they stand at 3-1 and are having a solid season of their own. Yet, I don't see them winning the PL or having a good enough resume therefore in order to be included in the discussion.

So, does a one loss Colgate or Holy Cross team get into the playoffs as an at-large?

[danefan]

JMU's loss to Hofstra helps (unless Hofstra keeps winning), but I don't think either schedule warrants an at-large, and neither does the conference wins.

What if Central Conn also goes 10-1 with a loss only to W&M? They would be just as deserving as a 10-1 Colgate or HC, but CCSU wouldn't (and shouldn't) get a bid either.

I feel the same way about the MEAC teams, but at least SCSU had a pretty good showing against South Carolina. I'll feel the same way about FAMU if they have a good showing at Miami.

[carney2]

It is hard to see the Patriot league as a two bid conference. Add to that the powder puff OOC schedules that these two have played, and...

[crusader11]

I agree carney. But, I think it would be hard to turn away a 10-1 team that has played an entire D1 schedule. A 10-1 Colgate team versus an 8-3 UMASS or Delaware team would be a tough choice I think.

[ngineer]

I agree under you scenario. The Committee could not ignore a 10-1 team losing only to the undefeated league champ.

[LawDutch]

Highly, highly unlikely. 0 quality wins for the Patriot this year. If Holy Cross or 'Gate was in the CAA/SoCon/MVC, they would probably be around .500 teams. The committee realizes this and will choose accordingly. I wouldn't be surprised to see a 7-4 UD or JMU get in over a 10-1 PL team.

Oct. 24th will be epic, a playoff spot could legitimately be on the line.

[aceinthehole]

JMU's loss to Hofstra helps (unless Hofstra keeps winning), but I don't think either schedule warrants an at-large, and neither does the conference wins.

What if Central Conn also goes 10-1 with a loss only to W&M? They would be just as deserving as a 10-1 Colgate or HC, but CCSU wouldn't (and shouldn't) get a bid either.

I feel the same way about the MEAC teams, but at least SCSU had a pretty good showing against South Carolina. I'll feel the same way about FAMU if they have a good showing at Miami.

You would have to look at the teams "best 3" wins. Here's what some hypothetical 10-1 teams might look like. Who looks the best?

The problem for the PLs teams is their resume will look no better than 10-1 CCSU team that is a conference champ without the AQ. Even a 9-2 Albany has a comparable resume to 'Gate/HC and they would be a 3-time undeafted, conference champ without the AQ. I just don't see how the PL, MEAC, or OVC gets an at-large this year.

Holy Cross (10-1)
Best wins: Harvard, Northeastern, and Lafayette
Loss: a Top-25 Colgate

Colgate (10-1)
Best wins: Monmouth, Stony Brook, Lafayette
Loss: a Top-25 Holy Cross

CCSU (10-1)
Best wins: Columbia, Albany, Monmouth
Loss: a top-25 W&M

Albany (9-2)
Best wins: Maine, CCSU, Monmouth
Loss: possible top-25 Georgia Southern and top-25 UMass

[WrenFGun]

This is not terribly relevant evidence, but the committee was poised to take an 8-3 Colgate team two years ago before they lost in the final week, opening a spot for 7-4 UNH. Perhaps that was a result of poor options, but I would think a 10-1 PL team had a pretty good shot. Deserving or not, the Patriot league seems to have a better rep than the NEC.

[Franks Tanks]

This is not terribly relevant evidence, but the committee was poised to take an 8-3 Colgate team two years ago before they lost in the final week, opening a spot for 7-4 UNH. Perhaps that was a result of poor options, but I would think a 10-1 PL team had a pretty good shot. Deserving or not, the Patriot league seems to have a better rep than the NEC.

PL teams have got at large berth's before so it has happened. However, it may me more unlikely now because the PL hasnt been performing well in the playoffs.

In 2005 Lafayette got an at large at 8-3, with a quality win over Richmond and a Lehigh team which I believe was ranked at the time.

[89Hen]

A 10-1 Colgate team versus an 8-3 UMASS or Delaware team would be a tough choice I think.
Maybe to a PL fan. xconfusedx

[aceinthehole]

This is not terribly relevant evidence, but the committee was poised to take an 8-3 Colgate team two years ago before they lost in the final week, opening a spot for 7-4 UNH. Perhaps that was a result of poor options, but I would think a 10-1 PL team had a pretty good shot. Deserving or not, the Patriot league seems to have a better rep than the NEC.

So, an undeserving PL runner-up can makes the playoffs as an at-large over an NEC or Big South champion with a similar resume, based on .... ? xconfusedx

Liberty (9-2)
Wins: Lafayette, Stony Brook, Coastal Carolina
Loss: I-A West Virginia and top-25 JMU

That is basically Colgate's resume with a I-A loss. Plus the Flames would be a conference champ.

[89Hen]

Lehigh 0-4 OOC
Fordham 1-2 OOC (only win is upstart ODU)
G'town 0-2 OOC
Liberty > Lafayette
Duquesne > Bucknell

The conference is WAYYYY down. Saying " losing only to the undefeated league champ" really isn't saying much this year.

[Pard94]

Lehigh 0-4 OOC
Fordham 1-2 OOC (only win is upstart ODU)
G'town 0-2 OOC
Liberty > Lafayette
Duquesne > Bucknell

The conference is WAYYYY down. Saying " losing only to the undefeated league champ" really isn't saying much this year.


Don't forget...Lafayette still has the opportunity to beat Harvard, Colgate and Holy Cross... all of whom are nationally ranked as of now. Not that I think the PL is necessarily a two bid team...I'm just sayin.

[Franks Tanks]

Lehigh 0-4 OOC
Fordham 1-2 OOC (only win is upstart ODU)
G'town 0-2 OOC
Liberty > Lafayette
Duquesne > Bucknell

The conference is WAYYYY down. Saying " losing only to the undefeated league champ" really isn't saying much this year.

Hen-- the top 3 of the PL is better than it has been in a few years IMO.

Colgate, Holy Cross, and Lafayette are handling their Ivy opponents thus far, and it appears Colgate and Holy Cross have a great chance to run the table versus the Ivies and overall OOC. Lafayette also has a shot but the game at Harvard will be formidable.

Over the last few years the Patriot Champs have dropped games to Ivy or other OOC teams from the Big South or NEC. This year the PL champ has a chance to go undefeated or only have one loss.

Deserving of two bid?? Perhaps not, but the top of the PL is doing quite well. The bottom of the PL is bad

[89Hen]

Don't forget...Lafayette still has the opportunity to beat Harvard, Colgate and Holy Cross... all of whom are nationally ranked as of now. Not that I think the PL is necessarily a two bid team...I'm just sayin.
Harvard is ranked? And Colgate and HC are not OOC.

[89Hen]

Hen-- the top 3 of the PL is better than it has been in a few years IMO.

Colgate, Holy Cross, and Lafayette are handling their Ivy opponents thus far, and it appears Colgate and Holy Cross have a great chance to run the table versus the Ivies and overall OOC. Lafayette also has a shot but the game at Harvard will be formidable.
You're throwing LC in as a top 3 and forgiving the loss to Liberty?

[Franks Tanks]

You're throwing LC in as a top 3 and forgiving the loss to Liberty?

I am saying we are one of the 3 teams that have a chance to win the league..absolutely. But yes our loss to Liberty would knock us out of playoff contention should we drop a game to Holy Cross or Colgate and finish 9-2 and non-champs. If Lafayette would have beat Liberty and finished 10-1 with a loss to only Cross or Gate they would have a strong playoff resume, but that is clearly not a scenario that will happen.

My point was that the PL is faring pretty well against the Ivies thus far. Also of Colgate, Lafayette and Holy Cross-- Liberty is probably the best team faced by any school this far. Yes Lafayette lost a close one, but I dont think Holy Cross or Colgate have played a team as good as Liberty. Liberty may not be great, but they will most likely be Big South champs and as I said I dont believe Holy Cross or Colgate has played a team as good as Liberty so losing to then doesnt disqualify Lafayette from the PL race.

[aceinthehole]

Hen-- the top 3 of the PL is better than it has been in a few years IMO.

Colgate, Holy Cross, and Lafayette are handling their Ivy opponents thus far, and it appears Colgate and Holy Cross have a great chance to run the table versus the Ivies and overall OOC. Lafayette also has a shot but the game at Harvard will be formidable.

Over the last few years the Patriot Champs have dropped games to Ivy or other OOC teams from the Big South or NEC. This year the PL champ has a chance to go undefeated or only have one loss.

Deserving of two bid?? Perhaps not, but the top of the PL is doing quite well. The bottom of the PL is bad

So, your conference is doing "quite well" by taking care of Ivies? xrolleyesx

Why then is it expected that NEC and Big South teams go out and really challenge themselves in OOC games before they get any respect?

Why aren't the top PL teams trying to get games with more CAA/SoCon/MVFC teams? Lafayette, Bucknell and Colgate did not have 1 AQ-conference team on their OOC schedule this year!!!!

[danefan]

I am saying we are one of the 3 teams that have a chance to win the league, but yes our loss to Liberty would knock us out of the playoffs should we drop a game to Holy Cross or Colgate and finish 9-2 and non-champs.

My point was that the Pl is faring pretty well against the Ivies thus far. Also of Colgate, Lafayette and Holy Cross-- Liberty is porbbaly the best team faced by any school this far. Yes Lafayette lost a close one, but I dont think Holy Cross or Colgate have played a team as good as Liberty.


You're not helping your cause with this argument. The Ivy league wins will not (and should not) get the PL an at-large.

Neither Colgate nor Holy Cross will have any quality wins this year that will get them an at-large.

Once again - why should Colgate or Holy Cross get a bid over the following teams?

CCSU (10-1)
Best wins: Columbia, Albany, Monmouth
Loss: a top-25 W&M

Albany (9-2)
Best wins: Maine, CCSU, Monmouth
Loss: possible top-25 Georgia Southern and top-25 UMass

Liberty (9-2)
Best Wins: Lafayette, Stony Brook, Coastal Carolina
Loss: I-A West Virginia and top-25 JMU


And BTW - I'm not advocating that either of these three teams get an at-large. I don't think they deserve one, nor would a second place Patriot League team.

[89Hen]

My point was that the PL is faring pretty well against the Ivies thus far. Also of Colgate, Lafayette and Holy Cross-- Liberty is probably the best team faced by any school this far. Yes Lafayette lost a close one, but I dont think Holy Cross or Colgate have played a team as good as Liberty. Liberty may not be great, but they will most likely be Big South champs and as I said I dont believe Holy Cross or Colgate has played a team as good as Liberty so losing to then doesnt disqualify Lafayette from the PL race.
Any Given Saturday Poll Top 25

(First place votes in parenthesis), Points
1. Richmond (52) 2359
2. Villanova (33) 2338
3. Northern Iowa (11) 2264
4. Montana (1) 2066
5. New Hampshire 1979
6. Southern Illinois 1852
7. William & Mary 1752
8. McNeese St. 1613
9. Elon 1567
10. Appalachian St. 1543
11. Central Arkansas 1500
12. Massachusetts 1264
13. Cal Poly 1227
14. James Madison 1085
15. Eastern Washington 912
16. South Carolina St. 845
17. Eastern Kentucky 826
18. South Dakota St. 785
19. Holy Cross 633
20. Jacksonville St. 604
21. Weber St. 552
22. Colgate 337
23. Florida A&M 314
24. Delaware 289
25. Furman 200

Others receiving votes (minimum of 5 votes): Liberty (52), Montana St. (46), Stephen F. Austin (30), Eastern Illinois (29), Hofstra (12), Samford (9), Texas St. (9), Prairie View A&M (7), The Citadel (7), Harvard (5),

[crusader11]

You're not helping your cause with this argument. The Ivy league wins will not (and should not) get the PL an at-large.

Neither Colgate nor Holy Cross will have any quality wins this year that will get them an at-large.

Once again - why should Colgate or Holy Cross get a bid over the following teams?

CCSU (10-1)
Best wins: Columbia, Albany, Monmouth
Loss: a top-25 W&M

Albany (9-2)
Best wins: Maine, CCSU, Monmouth
Loss: possible top-25 Georgia Southern and top-25 UMass

Liberty (9-2)
Best Wins: Lafayette, Stony Brook, Coastal Carolina
Loss: I-A West Virginia and top-25 JMU


And BTW - I'm not advocating that either of these three teams get an at-large. I don't think they deserve one, nor would a second place Patriot League team.

All of those resumes are very, very similar to the potential resumes of Holy Cross and Colgate. I guess how each team goes about winning the games will factor into who may have the better resume, but it is not as if beating Monmouth, Maine, or Stony Brook is all that impressive.

[Pard94]

Harvard is ranked? And Colgate and HC are not OOC.

OOC or not I would think the selection commitee would have to take into account if a team beats nationally ranked teams. By your logic Nova wouldn't get any credit for beating it's fellow ranked CAA teams. A quality win is a quality win, no? My bad...Harvard was ranked 24 or 25...I think they are just outside the rankings now though. Noentheless...if Harvard were to go on to win the Ivy...that would be a quality win for a PL team.

[Franks Tanks]

So, your conference is doing "quite well" by taking care of Ivies? xrolleyesx

Why then is it expected that NEC and Big South teams go out and really challenge themselves in OOC games before they get any respect?

Why aren't the top PL teams trying to get games with more CAA/SoCon/MVFC teams? Lafayette, Bucknell and Colgate did not have 1 AQ-conference team on their OOC schedule this year!!!!

True, but Liberty is better than Northeastern or Rhode Island, Just because Liberty is in the Big South it doesnt automatically preclude them from being good.

[Pard94]

Any Given Saturday Poll Top 25

(First place votes in parenthesis), Points
1. Richmond (52) 2359
2. Villanova (33) 2338
3. Northern Iowa (11) 2264
4. Montana (1) 2066
5. New Hampshire 1979
6. Southern Illinois 1852
7. William & Mary 1752
8. McNeese St. 1613
9. Elon 1567
10. Appalachian St. 1543
11. Central Arkansas 1500
12. Massachusetts 1264
13. Cal Poly 1227
14. James Madison 1085
15. Eastern Washington 912
16. South Carolina St. 845
17. Eastern Kentucky 826
18. South Dakota St. 785
19. Holy Cross 633
20. Jacksonville St. 604
21. Weber St. 552
22. Colgate 337
23. Florida A&M 314
24. Delaware 289
25. Furman 200

Others receiving votes (minimum of 5 votes): Liberty (52), Montana St. (46), Stephen F. Austin (30), Eastern Illinois (29), Hofstra (12), Samford (9), Texas St. (9), Prairie View A&M (7), The Citadel (7), Harvard (5),

Thanks for posting this Hen. It gives me better insight into your motivation. Delaware is a long shot to make it...especially when you consider the powers that be would have already handed out 6 CAA bids. You guys are one loss away from joining the ranks of Liberty and Harvard in the list of "also rans" below the list. I'd be rooting against the PL too if I were you.

[danefan]

All of those resumes are very, very similar to the potential resumes of Holy Cross and Colgate. I guess how each team goes about winning the games will factor into who may have the better resume, but it is not as if beating Monmouth, Maine, or Stony Brook is all that impressive.

It is exactly the same as beating Harvard, Northeastern, and Lafayette. And you are 10000000% correct, its not "all that impressive" and its exactly why they shouldn't get an at-large.

[89Hen]

OOC or not I would think the selection commitee would have to take into account if a team beats nationally ranked teams. By your logic Nova wouldn't get any credit for beating it's fellow ranked CAA teams.
xnonox

Villanova > Temple
UNH > Ball St
Richmond > Duke
W&M > Virginia
JMU > Liberty (and taking Maryland to OT)

vs

Holy Cross > Harvard
Colgate > Cornell
Lafayette > Yale

A ranked CAA team has a resume to back it up. Right now a ranked PL team is only ranked because they are leading the conference and everyone assumes the conference champ (leader) should be ranked. xpeacex

[Franks Tanks]

You're not helping your cause with this argument. The Ivy league wins will not (and should not) get the PL an at-large.

Neither Colgate nor Holy Cross will have any quality wins this year that will get them an at-large.

Once again - why should Colgate or Holy Cross get a bid over the following teams?

CCSU (10-1)
Best wins: Columbia, Albany, Monmouth
Loss: a top-25 W&M

Albany (9-2)
Best wins: Maine, CCSU, Monmouth
Loss: possible top-25 Georgia Southern and top-25 UMass

Liberty (9-2)
Best Wins: Lafayette, Stony Brook, Coastal Carolina
Loss: I-A West Virginia and top-25 JMU


And BTW - I'm not advocating that either of these three teams get an at-large. I don't think they deserve one, nor would a second place Patriot League team.


CCSU-- So Ivy wins dont count but CCSU's best win is Columbia???? How bout beating Harvard and Brown like Holy Cross may do, who are both better than Columbia. When Lafayette beats Columbia this week I will put them on Lafayette's resume as well. Secondly Colgate also beat Monmouth.

Albany-- Is Maine really much better than Northeastern?? Probably not

Liberty-- I would argue that Liberty does deserve a bid if they win out in impressive fashion. It would help them greatly if Lafayette wins the PL.

I understand your points, but in no way are the resume's above any better than potential one loss Patriot team's resume's. It can be argued that perhaps CCSU or Albany had a resume equal to a PL team with one or two losses, but the differentiation would be small.

[89Hen]

Thanks for posting this Hen. It gives me better insight into your motivation. Delaware is a long shot to make it...especially when you consider the powers that be would have already handed out 6 CAA bids. You guys are one loss away from joining the ranks of Liberty and Harvard in the list of "also rans" below the list. I'd be rooting against the PL too if I were you.
xnonono2x xnonox

Delaware has NOTHING to do with this conversation or with the Patriot having ZERO resume.

BTW, it's more than a long shot for Delaware. They have to face quite a few more good teams. Can't say the same for the PL.

[crusader11]

Harvard and Lafayette are better wins than all 3 of those schools.

[danefan]

CCSU-- So Ivy winns dont count but CCSU's best win is Columbia???? How bout beating Harvard and Brown like Holy Cross may do, who are both better than Columbia. When Lafayette beats Columbia this week I will put them on Lafayette's resume as well. Secondly Colgate also beat Monmouth.

Albany-- Is maine really much better than Northeastern?? Probbaly not

Liberty-- I would argue that Liberty does deserve a win if they win out in impressive fashion. It would help them greatly if Lafayette wins the PL.

I understand your points, but in no way are the resume above any better than potential one loss Patriot team's resume's.


I'm not saying its better. I'm saying its the same. The same = no at-large.

Feel free to put Columbia on Lafayette's resume. It still won't be playoff worthy. And is Maine better than Northeastern? They beat Northeastern - so I can say with some pretty good confidence, that yes, Maine is better than Northeastern.

[danefan]

Harvard and Lafayette are better wins than all 3 of those schools.

Based on what?

[89Hen]

in no way are the resume above any better than potential one loss Patriot team's resume's.
And vice versa. THAT was the whole point you missed.

[aceinthehole]

True, but Liberty is better than Northeastern or Rhode Island, Just because Liberty is in the Big South it doesnt automatically preclude them from being good.

No $it! That's my point. If Liberty is a "good loss" for LCm, than Albany would be a "good win" for CCSU!

You can't have it both ways! If Ivy wins are "good" for PL teams, they have to be "good" for a NEC team too.

If a Big South team like Liberty beats a "good" PL team, why aren't they rated as high as 'Gate/HC?

Its a double standard!

[Franks Tanks]

And vice versa. THAT was the whole point you missed.

I didnt miss that point-- I was supporting my case, but wasnt oblivious to the fact that NEC teams have simialr resumes

[danefan]

Please, PL fans - take a look at your arguments and compare them to San Diego's or Dayton's arguments from a few years ago.

No different. A Patriot League team that is relying on its Ivy league victories is the same as a Dayton or San Diego relying on its Ivy league victories. Sorry, the PL isn't strong enough as a league to warrant an at-large without winning a OOC game against a good opponent.

[89Hen]

Please, PL fans - take a look at your arguments and compare them to San Diego's or Dayton's arguments from a few years ago.

No different. A Patriot League team that is relying on its Ivy league victories is the same as a Dayton or San Diego relying on its Ivy league victories. Sorry, the PL isn't strong enough as a league to warrant an at-large without winning a OOC game against a good opponent.
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumb_357/1232913923n4u79s.jpg

[crusader11]

We beat who is on our schedule. Fine, the schedule may be a bit weak, but that does not mean that Colgate or Holy Cross are still not very good football teams.

[danefan]

Please, PL fans - take a look at your arguments and compare them to San Diego's or Dayton's arguments from a few years ago.

No different. A Patriot League team that is relying on its Ivy league victories is the same as a Dayton or San Diego relying on its Ivy league victories. Sorry, the PL isn't strong enough as a league to warrant an at-large without winning a OOC game against a good opponent.


We beat who is on our schedule. Fine, the schedule may be a bit weak, but that does not mean that Colgate or Holy Cross are still not very good football teams.


xbowx

Thank you for making my point.

[aceinthehole]

I understand your points, but in no way are the resume's above any better than potential one loss Patriot team's resume's. It can be argued that perhaps CCSU or Albany had a resume equal to a PL team with one or two losses, but the differentiation would be small.

Yes, that's the point us NEC gauys have been saying! The top PL teams are EQUAL to the top NEC/Big South teams. So why do you think the PL teams have a shot at an at-large, but the others do not?????

RIGHT NOW, Albany, CCSU, and Liberty all have resumes about equal to 'Gate/HC, yet the 2 PL teams are ranked, and the 3 non-AQ conference teams are not. Why is that?

I'm not asking for extra credit or special consideration, but the PL and the NEC are on par and the teams should be evaluated as such!

[Pard94]

xnonox

Villanova > Temple
UNH > Ball St
Richmond > Duke
W&M > Virginia
JMU > Liberty (and taking Maryland to OT)

vs

Holy Cross > Harvard
Colgate > Cornell
Lafayette > Yale

A ranked CAA team has a resume to back it up. Right now a ranked PL team is only ranked because they are leading the conference and everyone assumes the conference champ (leader) should be ranked. xpeacex

Well...take your argument up with the folks who rank teams if you like. In the mean time...what? Rankings mean nothing? They're an exercise in futility? The system is what it is. Imperfect though it may be, it's the only one we have until people smarten up and simply give all of the bids to all of the CAA teams first and go from there. Northeastern should be in simply because they share league letterhead with Villanova, Richmond, et. al.

[89Hen]

but that does not mean that Colgate or Holy Cross are still not very good football teams.
How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop? The world may never know.

[Franks Tanks]

I'm not saying its better. I'm saying its the same. The same = no at-large.

Feel free to put Columbia on Lafayette's resume. It still won't be playoff worthy. And is Maine better than Northeastern? They beat Northeastern - so I can say with some pretty good confidence, that yes, Maine is better than Northeastern.

Great-- a team that almost lost to a D-II schools (Maine) is better than a team that got crushed by Holy Cross.

I dont understand the argumemt from you NEC folks frankly. It was simply pointed out that a one loss PL team may have enough juice for an auto and you guys come in saying no way the PL sucks look at the evidence. The evidence you provide that supports that NEC teams shows that yes you should be in the conversation with a one loss PL team, but in no way is superior.

By saying the PL teams dont deserve an auto-bid you are saying you dont deservce one either.

[danefan]

Great-- a team that almost lost to a D-II schools (Maine) is better than a team that got crushed by Holy Cross.


I don't understand this point? Yes, Maine almost lost to a DII school. And yes they beat Northeastern. And yes Northeastern lost to Holy Cross also. So?



I dont understand the argumemt from you NEC folks frankly. It was simply pointed out that a one loss PL team may have enough juice for an auto and you guys come in saying no way the PL sucks look at the evidence. The evidence you provide that supports that NEC teams shows that yes you should be in the conversation with a one loss PL team, but in no way is superior.

By saying the PL teams dont deserve an auto-bid you are saying you dont deservce one either.

I am not saying the PL doesn't deserve an auto-bid. I'm saying the PL doesn't deserve an at-large this year.

And yes, my logic is sound. I don't think either Albany or CCSU should get an at-large this year. We both had our chance to win the tough OOC games and we didn't. Does the winner of the NEC deserve an AQ? Yes. That's a different story though.

[89Hen]

Imperfect though it may be, it's the only one we have until people smarten up and simply give all of the bids to all of the CAA teams first and go from there. Northeastern should be in simply because they share league letterhead with Villanova, Richmond, et. al.
Pard, it's worthless even talking to you. The CAA has NOTHING to do with this. Delaware has NOTHING to do with this. xnonono2x


But in your arguement where HC and Colgate are ranked and one of them wins and one loses.... the loser would STILL be 0-1 vs ranked teams. That's a resume? xlolx

[Franks Tanks]

Yes, that's the point us NEC gauys have been saying! The top PL teams are EQUAL to the top NEC/Big South teams. So why do you think the PL teams have a shot at an at-large, but the others do not?????

RIGHT NOW, Albany, CCSU, and Liberty all have resumes about equal to 'Gate/HC, yet the 2 PL teams are ranked, and the 3 non-AQ conference teams are not. Why is that?

I'm not asking for extra credit or special consideration, but the PL and the NEC are on par and the teams should be evaluated as such!

Dude-- I never said Big South teams or NEC teams dont have a shot--seriously WTF are you talking about. I said earlier that a 9-2 Liberty team should get serious playoff consideration. All I said is that Colgate, Holy Cross, and Lafayette are stronger than they have been over that last few years IMO and thay are doing well againt the Ivies. Damm

[aceinthehole]

Great-- a team that almost lost to a D-II schools (Maine) is better than a team that got crushed by Holy Cross.

I dont understand the argumemt from you NEC folks frankly. It was simply pointed out that a one loss PL team may have enough juice for an auto and you guys come in saying no way the PL sucks look at the evidence. The evidence you provide that supports that NEC teams shows that yes you should be in the conversation with a one loss PL team, but in no way is superior.

By saying the PL teams dont deserve an auto-bid you are saying you dont deservce one either.

NO ONE was talking about AQ bids! This whole thread (poll) is on the at-large status of a 1-loss PL team.

You are confused because you don't see the argument! Since the NEC/BS doesn't have an AQ, we are saying that conference champ would be JUST AS WORTHY of an at-large bid than the PL runner up.

[Pard94]

Pard, it's worthless even talking to you. The CAA has NOTHING to do with this. Delaware has NOTHING to do with this. xnonono2x


But in your arguement where HC and Colgate are ranked and one of them wins and one loses.... the loser would STILL be 0-1 vs ranked teams. That's a resume? xlolx

Fine...stop talking to me. I'll try not to lose any sleep. You are correct. Delaware has nothing to do with this.

[89Hen]

I didnt miss that point-- I was supporting my case, but wasnt oblivious to the fact that NEC teams have simialr resumes


By saying the PL teams dont deserve an auto-bid you are saying you dont deservce one either.
It's clear you did miss the point... twice. None of the NEC guys are arguing FOR an at-large for the NEC or for the PL not having an auto. xrulesx

[89Hen]

You are correct. Delaware has nothing to do with this.
Nor does the CAA.

[Franks Tanks]

I don't understand this point? Yes, Maine almost lost to a DII school. And yes they beat Northeastern. And yes Northeastern lost to Holy Cross also. So?



I am not saying the PL doesn't deserve an auto-bid. I'm saying the PL doesn't deserve an at-large this year.

And yes, my logic is sound. I don't think either Albany or CCSU should get an at-large this year. We both had our chance to win the tough OOC games and we didn't. Does the winner of the NEC deserve an AQ? Yes. That's a different story though.


So Maine isnt all that great either--WTF are we even discusssing this- what relevance does it have to anything.

Fine-- if you dont think the Patriot deserves an at large that is your opinion. I think PL fans were working through the possibility of deserving an at large- it wasnt a forgone conclusion. You are correct in stating that yes if you argue againt a Patriot at large, then you must be also believe an NEC at large also doesnt fly. I also agree NEC deserves an auto


Also let me say I believe I sprinkled in auto bid when I meant at large bid-- i have been referencing at large bids the entire time

[aceinthehole]

So, does a one loss Colgate or Holy Cross team get into the playoffs as an at-large?

That was the question.

And my simple response is: No.

The reason is because the at-large resume of a 1-loss 'Gate/HC team would likely be NO BETTER THAN the potential NEC/Big South conference champ resume (CCSU/Albany/Liberty) who would be in consideration of an at-large.

[Pard94]

Nor does the CAA.

Right! Nor does the CAA. Got it! Thanks. Now comes the part where you stop talking to me right?

[Franks Tanks]

It's clear you did miss the point... twice. None of the NEC guys are arguing FOR an at-large for the NEC or for the PL not having an auto. xrulesx

Hen you are being really frakin annoying. I didnt miss the GD point.

It was my impression that the NEC folks were knocking the PL by pointing out their resumes, yet their resumes were no better than a PL team. They were saying it is preposterous to consider a PL at large because of NEC resumes. I think that both a PL team and a NEC or Big South team can be considered for the at large. I agree that the PL and NEC resumes are similar, so you take them together. What they were doing however is talking smack on the Patriot, when the NEC has a resume that is no better.

Also again MOST PL PEOPLE ON THIS THREAD WERE MERELY DISCUSSING WHAT WOULD HAVE TO HAPPEN OR THE POSSIBILITY OF AN AT LARGE. I dont believe any PL people stated an at large is a lock.

Also again I may have stated auto on past post when I meant at large-- my mistake

[Franks Tanks]

That was the question.

And my simple response is: No.

The reason is because the at-large resume of a 1-loss 'Gate/HC team would likely be NO BETTER THAN the potential NEC/Big South conference champ resume (CCSU/Albany/Liberty) who would be in consideration of an at-large.

Conversely CCSU, ALBANY, or Liberty would have a no better resume than a one loss Colgate or Holy Cross. One would be splitting hairs and it can be argued they all deserve an at large if one is granted to a team in this group. So yes the PL or NEC could theoretically deserve at at large but someone may be left out. Asking does one deserve is different than askin if one will get.

[89Hen]

Hen you are being really frakin annoying. I didnt miss the GD point.

It was my impression that the NEC folks were knocking the PL by pointing out their resumes, yet their resumes were no better than a PL team. They were saying it is preposterous to consider a PL at large because of NEC resumes. I think that both a PL team and a NEC or Big South team can be considered for the at large. I agree that the PL and NEC resumes are similar, so you take them together. What they were doing however is talking smack on the Patriot, when the NEC has a resume that is no better.

Also again MOST PL PEOPLE ON THIS THREAD WERE MERELY DISCUSSING WHAT WOULD HAVE TO HAPPEN OR THE POSSIBILITY OF AN AT LARGE. I dont believe any PL people stated an at large is a lock.

Also again I may have stated auto on past post when I meant at large-- my mistake
I was getting upset at Pard94 twice calling me a homer when the CAA and Delaware have nothing to do with this. My apologies to you.

But I disagree that the NEC guys were smacking the PL. To me it looks like they are saying no way does a NEC deserve a bid and since their resumes are similar to the PL teams in question, neither do they. I guess if I were a PL fan, I might see it differently. xpeacex

[Franks Tanks]

I was getting upset at Pard94 twice calling me a homer when the CAA and Delaware have nothing to do with this. My apologies to you.

But I disagree that the NEC guys were smacking the PL. To me it looks like they are saying no way does a NEC deserve a bid and since their resumes are similar to the PL teams in question, neither do they. I guess if I were a PL fan, I might see it differently. xpeacex

Ok Hen-- I can agree with that.

I got the impression that the NEC fans were downgrading the PL to upgrade their case. I believe the NEC and PL resume are very close for an at large.

[danefan]

Ok Hen-- I can agree with that.

I got the impression that the NEC fans were downgrading the PL to upgrade their case. I believe the NEC and PL resume are very close for an at large.


OK, I get where you are coming from. I don't think that was the case. I think Ace and myself were simply saying that the PL and the NEC and Liberty would be on the same footing.

I don't think any of the 5 potential teams deserve an at-large bid, but that's just my opinion.

That would also go for FAMU if FAMU loses to SCSU. Unless of course they play Miami close.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

IMVHO, if Colgate goes 10-1 they will not get an at-large bid. If Holy Cross goes 10-1 they WILL likely get an at-large. Why? Holy Cross played a tougher schedule and not only beat a CAA opponent, but crushed them. How Harvard and Brown do will also matter (and assuming, of course, HC beats Brown), but unless you believe Harvard would finish at worse than 6-4 (they haven't done so in the last eight years), that will be viewed as a quality win.

I'd bet a duck dinner that when the end of the season goes around, those same yahoos on this thread that are lambasting a win over Northeastern will, say, be waxing philosophical about their "tough CAA schedule" which in some cases includes - you guessed it - Northeastern. I can't wait to hear the arguments that a 7-4 Hofstra team that got pummeled by Richmond will deserve consideration over a 10-1 Holy Cross team because their margin of victory over the Huskies was more than the Holy Cross'.

While CCSU at 10-1 would also be a worthy candidate, they won't have a single big win to hang their hat on, unless Lehigh runs the table or Albany gets ranked before all is said and done. If Lehigh runs the table - unlikely as that is, it could happen - then this scenario is moot. That means CCSU's argument for the playoffs would be that "we beat a team (or two) that beat a team" - not exactly an easy sell. Conversely, Holy Cross would have two - possibly three or even four - wins over Top 25 opponents in their 10-1 record.

[89Hen]

I got the impression that the NEC fans were downgrading the PL to upgrade their case. I believe the NEC and PL resume are very close for an at large.
The one HUGE variable that none of us have the answer to is: what teams will be there on November 22nd. As we get closer, everyone who may be a bubble team starts to get a better idea of who they need to be rooting for each week. Needing to root for Montana State, Furman, UMass, etc... to lose. Until we get further down the road, speculating on at-larges is somewhat futile.

[Pard94]

I was getting upset at Pard94 twice calling me a homer when the CAA and Delaware have nothing to do with this. My apologies to you.

But I disagree that the NEC guys were smacking the PL. To me it looks like they are saying no way does a NEC deserve a bid and since their resumes are similar to the PL teams in question, neither do they. I guess if I were a PL fan, I might see it differently. xpeacex


See...I take a couple of swipes at the CAA and Delaware and Hen get's his panties in a twist. Homer.

[Franks Tanks]

OK, I get where you are coming from. I don't think that was the case. I think Ace and myself were simply saying that the PL and the NEC and Liberty would be on the same footing.

I don't think any of the 5 potential teams deserve an at-large bid, but that's just my opinion.

That would also go for FAMU if FAMU loses to SCSU. Unless of course they play Miami close.

Ok-- I agree. We were mostly agree and perhaps the issue got confused.

As I stated before I felt that Colgate, Holy Cross and perhaps Lafayette are better than they have been over the last 2 or 3 years. I am using the Ivy example of why I feel they are better, and for good reason that doesnt carry a lot of weight nationally. The NEC teams may also be improved (i dont know enough about them to make such a statement). I was just commenting that the better teams in the PL are looking better this year IMO.

Personally i think these are good teams but I understand Albany and CCSU and Liberty are also good teams. One of these teams may get picked for an at large, and if one does the others with similar resumes have a beef. So going back to the original questions it is a possibility that a one loss Colgate or Holy Cross will be looked at for an at large, but certainly the others teams mentioned will also have a good case for that at large. I was just making a case why I think a one loss Cross or Gate would have a strong case. A two loss Lafayette would have a small case, but Liberty would get in and deservces to get in before us and a 2nd PL team wouldnt get on after a big south at large.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Please, PL fans - take a look at your arguments and compare them to San Diego's or Dayton's arguments from a few years ago.

No different. A Patriot League team that is relying on its Ivy league victories is the same as a Dayton or San Diego relying on its Ivy league victories. Sorry, the PL isn't strong enough as a league to warrant an at-large without winning a OOC game against a good opponent.


RIGHT NOW, Albany, CCSU, and Liberty all have resumes about equal to 'Gate/HC, yet the 2 PL teams are ranked, and the 3 non-AQ conference teams are not. Why is that?

I'd like some mustard and rye to go with these answers.

You obviously didn't get the memo that Harvard not only won four Ivy League titles in the last eight years, you also missed the one where they've ended the season nationally-ranked in many of those years as well. It's safe to consider a win over Harvard a "quality win", unless you believe this year they're going to something they haven't done in the past eight years - finish at 6-4 or below.

Right now, Albany, CCSU and Liberty have resumes equal to Gate/HC. Sure. But by the end of the year HC's at least will have a better resume since they will have faced at least two, most probably more, Top 25 teams. Albany and CCSU will play each other. And who will Liberty play? Liberty will be hanging their season on a win over Lafayette - and if this scenario comes to pass, HC will have beaten Lafayette too plus a Top 25 team. Face it, HC is in a decent position to get an at-large bid if they lose one game against a nationally-ranked PL champion.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Just to clarify as well: Colgate going 10-1 will have a problem since they don't 1) have a win over a CAA school, and 2) would at most have one win over a Top 25 opponent. Their strength-of-schedule could very easily kill them - but then again, they would be more "in the mix" with Albany/CCSU, Liberty, or even a (for example) 7-4 Hofstra team. That's different than HC, who (IMO) would have a leg up on all these teams.

[danefan]

I'd like some mustard and rye to go with these answers.

You obviously didn't get the memo that Harvard not only won four Ivy League titles in the last eight years, you also missed the one where they've ended the season nationally-ranked in many of those years as well. It's safe to consider a win over Harvard a "quality win", unless you believe this year they're going to something they haven't done in the past eight years - finish at 6-4 or below.

Right now, Albany, CCSU and Liberty have resumes equal to Gate/HC. Sure. But by the end of the year HC's at least will have a better resume since they will have faced at least two, most probably more, Top 25 teams. Albany and CCSU will play each other. And who will Liberty play? Liberty will be hanging their season on a win over Lafayette - and if this scenario comes to pass, HC will have beaten Lafayette too plus a Top 25 team. Face it, HC is in a decent position to get an at-large bid if they lose one game against a nationally-ranked PL champion.


I think you missed the point that the Ivy league is not considered a strong enough OOC win to warrant an at-large.

I honestly don't care if Harvard has won 1000000 Ivy league titles. Doesn't do anything to show they are a good team. That's the Ivy league conversation that I've had 1 million times on here. Circular logic there LFN.

And I'm not going to "face it". Holy Cross won't have a good quality win if they go 10-1. Does that mean they are a bad team? No. Of course not.

But put that resume against an 8-3 UMass with loses to Richmond, Nova and Kansas State and Holy Cross will be in an uphill battle to say the least.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think you missed the point that the Ivy league is not considered a strong enough OOC win to warrant an at-large.

I honestly don't care if Harvard has won 1000000 Ivy league titles. Doesn't do anything to show they are a good team. That's the Ivy league conversation that I've had 1 million times on here. Circular logic there LFN.

And I'm not going to "face it". Holy Cross won't have a good quality win if they go 10-1. Does that mean they are a bad team? No. Of course not.

But put that resume against an 8-3 UMass with loses to Richmond, Nova and Kansas State and Holy Cross will be in an uphill battle to say the least.

You're making the classic mistake of lumping all the Ivy teams together. With that logic, HC's win over Northeastern would be a "quality win" since they are CAA.

The win over Harvard will be - assuming the pattern of the last eight years holds true for a ninth - considered a quality win since Harvard in that case would be a Top 25 team. Voters don't think the Ivy League is as good as the CAA, but historically they have thought its champion to be among the best 25 teams in the country. If HC beat that team, it will matter.

[danefan]

You're making the classic mistake of lumping all the Ivy teams together. With that logic, HC's win over Northeastern would be a "quality win" since they are CAA.

The win over Harvard will be - assuming the pattern of the last eight years holds true for a ninth - considered a quality win since Harvard in that case would be a Top 25 team. Voters don't think the Ivy League is as good as the CAA, but historically they have thought its champion to be among the best 25 teams in the country. If HC beat that team, it will matter.

I'm not saying it won't matter. I'm saying it won't be enough.

See e.g. San Diego in 2006.

[aceinthehole]

IMVHO, if Colgate goes 10-1 they will not get an at-large bid. If Holy Cross goes 10-1 they WILL likely get an at-large. Why? Holy Cross played a tougher schedule and not only beat a CAA opponent, but crushed them. How Harvard and Brown do will also matter (and assuming, of course, HC beats Brown), but unless you believe Harvard would finish at worse than 6-4 (they haven't done so in the last eight years), that will be viewed as a quality win.

I'd bet a duck dinner that when the end of the season goes around, those same yahoos on this thread that are lambasting a win over Northeastern will, say, be waxing philosophical about their "tough CAA schedule" which in some cases includes - you guessed it - Northeastern. I can't wait to hear the arguments that a 7-4 Hofstra team that got pummeled by Richmond will deserve consideration over a 10-1 Holy Cross team because their margin of victory over the Huskies was more than the Holy Cross'.

While CCSU at 10-1 would also be a worthy candidate, they won't have a single big win to hang their hat on, unless Lehigh runs the table or Albany gets ranked before all is said and done. If Lehigh runs the table - unlikely as that is, it could happen - then this scenario is moot. That means CCSU's argument for the playoffs would be that "we beat a team (or two) that beat a team" - not exactly an easy sell. Conversely, Holy Cross would have two - possibly three or even four - wins over Top 25 opponents in their 10-1 record.

We are all speculating a lot on future games, but again you are not given equal credit to CCSU.

Let's assume Columbia beats Lafayette and finished 2nd in the Ivy. Is that also not a "good win" nearly equal to HC's win over Harvard?

I don't expect the Lehigh win to mean much, as they likely finish 4-7, but Albany will be another "good win" for CCSU, equal to a HC win over NU.

Where are you getting these "good wins" for HC?

Finally, CCSU's only loss would be to a likely top-10 W&M, where HC loss would be vs a likely lower ranked 'Gate.

CCSU-HC would have a SIMILAR resume - likely not enough to get an at-large.

[aceinthehole]

I'd like some mustard and rye to go with these answers.

You obviously didn't get the memo that Harvard not only won four Ivy League titles in the last eight years, you also missed the one where they've ended the season nationally-ranked in many of those years as well. It's safe to consider a win over Harvard a "quality win", unless you believe this year they're going to something they haven't done in the past eight years - finish at 6-4 or below.

Right now, Albany, CCSU and Liberty have resumes equal to Gate/HC. Sure. But by the end of the year HC's at least will have a better resume since they will have faced at least two, most probably more, Top 25 teams. Albany and CCSU will play each other. And who will Liberty play? Liberty will be hanging their season on a win over Lafayette - and if this scenario comes to pass, HC will have beaten Lafayette too plus a Top 25 team. Face it, HC is in a decent position to get an at-large bid if they lose one game against a nationally-ranked PL champion.

1) Fine, its a good win, not a great one (regardless of their rank). But if Columbia finsihed 1 or 2 in the Ivy, wouldn't that be a "quality win" for CCSU?

2) If that statement is true, why isn't CCSU and UA on the radar of voters? Liberty is getting votes but is just outside the top-25. Albany and CCSU should be getting the same amount of votes as those 2 teams, if there resumes are similar, as you admitted.

You want to give a 1-loss HC credit for wins against the top-25 - who is that - Harvard and ???

Your argument that somehow HC has a better resume because of bougus top-25 votes is flawed!

[aceinthehole]

You're making the classic mistake of lumping all the Ivy teams together. With that logic, HC's win over Northeastern would be a "quality win" since they are CAA.

The win over Harvard will be - assuming the pattern of the last eight years holds true for a ninth - considered a quality win since Harvard in that case would be a Top 25 team. Voters don't think the Ivy League is as good as the CAA, but historically they have thought its champion to be among the best 25 teams in the country. If HC beat that team, it will matter.


Ok, but that's just 1 "quality win." Then you want to give credit for wins against NU and Lafayette, while discounting a loss to 'Gate.

Its just not enough!!!

[89Hen]

See...I take a couple of swipes at the CAA and Delaware and Hen get's his panties in a twist. Homer.
BULLS*** You didn't take swipes at them, you took swipes at ME. This is the THIRD time you called me a homer. xnonono2x

[Pard94]

BULLS*** You didn't take swipes at them, you took swipes at ME. This is the THIRD time you called me a homer. xnonono2x

Ease up Homer. It's just an internet sports board. Hardly calls for pistols at dawn. Don't go home and kick your dog or anything. It'll be alright...I promise. xbawlingx

[crusader11]

FWIW, 65% of the people a 10-1 HC or Colgate team is playoff bound.

Anyways, I'm glad this discussion occurred, as I think it really sheds light on the quality of the upper echelon on the NEC, as well as the top 3 in the PL this year. This poll probably would have been better served if I did it after the HC vs. Colgate game in a few weeks, but so be it.

[Franks Tanks]

1) Fine, its a good win, not a great one (regardless of their rank). But if Columbia finsihed 1 or 2 in the Ivy, wouldn't that be a "quality win" for CCSU?

2) If that statement is true, why isn't CCSU and UA on the radar of voters? Liberty is getting votes but is just outside the top-25. Albany and CCSU should be getting the same amount of votes as those 2 teams, if there resumes are similar, as you admitted.

You want to give a 1-loss HC credit for wins against the top-25 - who is that - Harvard and ???

Your argument that somehow HC has a better resume because of bougus top-25 votes is flawed!

If Columbia finishes high the win will be awarded properly. It is very early but Harvard and Brown are stil considered by most to be better than Columbia, and Holy Cross could have wins against both. Also Brown beat URI and Holy Cross should beat Brown. Also look at he common opponents if you like and that would be Sacred Heart. The Cross dispatched of Sacred Heart with relative ease while CCSU struggled. The Cross should also beat Lehigh. I am playing devils advocate and splitting hairs, but so are you.

[89Hen]

FWIW, 65% of the people a 10-1 HC or Colgate team is playoff bound.
One suggestion... when you do polls like this, IMO you should check the box to make votes public. Anonymous polls don't tell you as much IMO. xpeacex

[Go...gate]

The one HUGE variable that none of us have the answer to is: what teams will be there on November 22nd. As we get closer, everyone who may be a bubble team starts to get a better idea of who they need to be rooting for each week. Needing to root for Montana State, Furman, UMass, etc... to lose. Until we get further down the road, speculating on at-larges is somewhat futile.

Agreed. The only thing which should matter to Colgate right now is Thursday night's game at Princeton.

[Go...gate]

One suggestion... when you do polls like this, IMO you should check the box to make votes public. Anonymous polls don't tell you as much IMO. xpeacex

I voted for it.

[crusader11]

You would have to look at the teams "best 3" wins. Here's what some hypothetical 10-1 teams might look like. Who looks the best?

CCSU (10-1)
Best wins: Columbia, Albany, Monmouth
Loss: a top-25 W&M


That Columbia win is looking real strong now, huh. Beating a juggernaut team in Bryant by a point will look real good for their playoff resume.

[danefan]

That Columbia win is looking real strong now, huh. Beating a juggernaut team in Bryant by a point will look real good for their playoff resume.

Do you think Ace would still argue its a good win?

I doubt it.

Things change. What looks like a good win one week, may not look the same another week.

[crusader11]

He said Columbia would content for the Ivy League title with Harvard.

[aceinthehole]

Do you think Ace would still argue its a good win?

I doubt it.

Things change. What looks like a good win one week, may not look the same another week.

Exactly, Dane. So far CCSU doesn't have a "good" win, but neither does HC or Colgate, so what's your point, crusader? xconfusedx

We played the games on the schedule and won, so I'm not too upset. Can't help it that Lehigh is horrible and Columbia returned to the low expectations.

[ngineer]

Exactly, Dane. So far CCSU doesn't have a "good" win, but neither does HC or Colgate, so what's your point, crusader? xconfusedx

We played the games on the schedule and won, so I'm not too upset. Can't help it that Lehigh is horrible and Columbia returned to the low expectations.


As said above, sometimes what goes down in early September has little relevance or bearing as to what happens in November. I would submit that Lehigh, up until this past Saturday, was only 'half horrible', as our defense has been fairly stellar. Now the offense may be showing signs of coming out of its coma. Next week's game in Hamilton will tell all. It "hinges on the 'gate"...;)

[crusader11]

Bumping this to the top as it relates to the thread about Jacksonville's situation at potentially being 10-1 and going to the playoffs as an at-large or not.