BCS shenanigans have already begun

[OhioHen]

Take a look at the polls this week. Virginia Tech (4-1) has leapfrogged over Boise State (5-0) and USC (4-1) has gained significant ground in both the AP and USA Today polls. xnonono2x xnonox

At least the Harris Poll still has Boise State ahead of Virginia Tech, but both one loss teams gained significantly on total voting points.

[Seahawks Fan]

I agree. It will take legislation to get a playoff system for the big boys. There is too much money at stake in the present bowl system. It's not a level playing field. xnodx

[aust42]

Boise State will never get in over a one or even a two loss "BCS" Conference team. Another interesting scenario is if Cincinnatti goes undefeated in the Big East. They'll never get a chance to play for the "National Championship" either. I'd love to see Boise State and Cincy go undefeated and be the only two unbeatens at the end of the year. That would fck up the whole BCS process.

[Seahawks Fan]

..... I'd love to see Boise State and Cincy go undefeated and be the only two unbeatens at the end of the year. That would fck up the whole BCS process.

That might also get us a playoff system. :)

[89Hen]

Take a look at the polls this week. Virginia Tech (4-1) has leapfrogged over Boise State (5-0)
I thought I saw that last night on the snail trail. xcoolx xnonono2x

[putter]

The rest of Boise's schedule will screw them. The BCS will look at the overall strength and they will drop, even if they continue to win.

[onbison09]

Boise State will never get in over a one or even a two loss "BCS" Conference team. Another interesting scenario is if Cincinnatti goes undefeated in the Big East. They'll never get a chance to play for the "National Championship" either. I'd love to see Boise State and Cincy go undefeated and be the only two unbeatens at the end of the year. That would fck up the whole BCS process.

That's what I cheer for every year, chaos. It's not that hard people, 16 team playoff. Hell most of it would be after finals so they wouldn't even miss class. Think of all the money you would make college prezes!

[Thunderstruck84]

As long as Boise St can stay in the top 12 of the BCS they'll get an automatic BCS berth (as long as another team from a non-BCS conference doesn't pass them). The only thing this wacked out system screws them out of is a shot at a NC.

[SU Jag]

I love to listen to the talking heads down here on the radio who say that a playoff would be too many games for these kids to play. Wtf ever!!!!!!!

[OSBF]

The only thing this wacked out system screws them out of is a shot at a NC.

and championships are the only thing that matter. I've never understood why everyone gets all worked up about winning a bowl game that gives you a chance to finish the year ranked 3rd, or 5th, or 16th, whatever. Nothing matters but being the last ones left standing, that's the only reason to play the game.

[putter]

A playoff would be very successful, however, the conference championship games are the thing that is screwing this up. The money that the BCS conferences make of of those games is huge and it stays in the conference. The system would somehow take into account dropping teams for losing a conference championship and still play for the NC if they are in the top 16.

[techstate]

and championships are the only thing that matter. I've never understood why everyone gets all worked up about winning a bowl game that gives you a chance to finish the year ranked 3rd, or 5th, or 16th, whatever. Nothing matters but being the last ones left standing, that's the only reason to play the game.

Agreed. As fun as bowl games are, they still leave questions over who is the best and where you end up. I think a ten game season and a 16 team playoff sounds great and then there could be a consolation bowl game for teams who have 6 wins but are not in the top 16.

Probably never gonna happen but...you never know.

As far as the poll this week, it was still an improvement from last week. Oregon was ranked behind cal after killing them and Iowa was behind Penn state? xconfusedx

[PhoenixSupreme]

Agreed. As fun as bowl games are, they still leave questions over who is the best and where you end up. I think a ten game season and a 16 team playoff sounds great and then there could be a consolation bowl game for teams who have 6 wins but are not in the top 16.

Probably never gonna happen but...you never know.

As far as the poll this week, it was still an improvement from last week. Oregon was ranked behind cal after killing them and Iowa was behind Penn state? xconfusedx

I agree that there should be a 10-11 game schedule and playoffs should happen. It may throw off some of the conference championship games though. Also in regards to the conference championships (in particular, the ACC, SEC, and Big 12), you will likely see those teams involved perhaps having an extra shot to leapfrog a team that was set to be in the 16-team playoff field had the conference championship not occurred, or in the case of a 7-5 or 7-4 team, you may see one of them steal a spot through an Automatic Qualifier. If it's the latter, then I would suspect people would complain about whether or not it is the best 16 teams in the playoff.

[techstate]

I agree that there should be a 10-11 game schedule and playoffs should happen. It may throw off some of the conference championship games though. Also in regards to the conference championships (in particular, the ACC, SEC, and Big 12), you will likely see those teams involved perhaps having an extra shot to leapfrog a team that was set to be in the 16-team playoff field had the conference championship not occurred, or in the case of a 7-5 or 7-4 team, you may see one of them steal a spot through an Automatic Qualifier. If it's the latter, then I would suspect people would complain about whether or not it is the best 16 teams in the playoff.

I think people will always argue and complain on who deserves what. At least this way they are arguing over who is the 10-16 spots not who is #1 and #2. This way we are giving teams a chance to fight for the national title game.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

I hate the BCS, but let's get real - Boise State isn't a top-10 team.

[Shellin]

I hate the BCS, but let's get real - Boise State isn't a top-10 team.

They might be, and if not they're awfully close, Boise State is a good team. Going by the "would team x beat team y" system of rankings i think BSU would definitely lose to USC, Ohio State, or Miami. Other than that though there aren't any teams behind them that I can say are unquestionably better.

[Big Al]

Here's my hope: Boise State, Iowa & Cincy all finish the season undefeated. Now that would make some people's heads explode.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

They might be, and if not they're awfully close, Boise State is a good team. Going by the "would team x beat team y" system of rankings i think BSU would definitely lose to USC, Ohio State, or Miami. Other than that though there aren't any teams behind them that I can say are unquestionably better.

How about Virginia Tech, Florida, Texas, Oklahoma with Sam Bradford, and Alabama? All of those teams would stomp a mudhole in Boise State. The best team BSU has beaten is Oregon and the quality of their win over Cal just dipped when they got beat by USC.

[Shellin]

Sorry, I mean the only teams that BSU was ranked in front of.

[seantaylor]

Boise is easily a top 5 team. After Utah stomped a mud hole in Alabama last year, they still won't get a fair shake.

[EKU05]

and championships are the only thing that matter. I've never understood why everyone gets all worked up about winning a bowl game that gives you a chance to finish the year ranked 3rd, or 5th, or 16th, whatever. Nothing matters but being the last ones left standing, that's the only reason to play the game.

I disagree. I'd like to see anyone who thinks that go up to a great college football player who never won a national title and say to that person, "Your entire career was meaningless. You might as well have never played. Nothing you did matters."

Look, if being the best team on the planet was all that mattered then the Pro-Bowl would be the only game worth watching. Even the superbowl would be meaningless.

Players always put everything they have into succeeding at the highest level, but if you don't win it doesn't make the things you did accomplish meaningless. The BCS itself is messed up beyond comprehension, but the beauty of the broader bowl system is that it gives so many fan bases a chance to make one huge event out of the end of the season and to celebrate the accomplishments of their student athletes...whatever they may be.

Every game is worth winning weather a "championship" is on the line or not.

[techstate]

I disagree. I'd like to see anyone who thinks that go up to a great college football player who never won a national title and say to that person, "Your entire career was meaningless. You might as well have never played. Nothing you did matters."

Look, if being the best team on the planet was all that mattered then the Pro-Bowl would be the only game worth watching. Even the superbowl would be meaningless.

Players always put everything they have into succeeding at the highest level, but if you don't win it doesn't make the things you did accomplish meaningless. The BCS itself is messed up beyond comprehension, but the beauty of the broader bowl system is that it gives so many fan bases a chance to make one huge event out of the end of the season and to celebrate the accomplishments of their student athletes...whatever they may be.

Every game is worth winning weather a "championship" is on the line or not.

I believe you cant go to any FBS football player and say they are the national champion.

Anyway Boise should not be considered for national title respect. Join a decent conference and then go undefeated. Playing Phoenix online isn't going to cut it.

[BDKJMU]

I agree that there should be a 10-11 game schedule and playoffs should happen. It may throw off some of the conference championship games though. Also in regards to the conference championships (in particular, the ACC, SEC, and Big 12), you will likely see those teams involved perhaps having an extra shot to leapfrog a team that was set to be in the 16-team playoff field had the conference championship not occurred, or in the case of a 7-5 or 7-4 team, you may see one of them steal a spot through an Automatic Qualifier. If it's the latter, then I would suspect people would complain about whether or not it is the best 16 teams in the playoff.

Next a I-AA could play up to 16 games: 11 regular season, 5 round playoff (if one of the non bye teams made the NC game).

I-A could keep their 12 game regular season + Conference championship game + 3 round/8 team playoff= 16 games (for only 2 teams)

Or could make it a 11 game regular season again + conference championship + 4 round/16 team playoff= 16 games (for only 2 teams)

Or 11 game regular season + conference championship + 3 round/8 team playoff= 15 games (for only 2 teams).

Could have the 4 biggest bowl games (Rose, Sugar, Orange, Fiesta rotate among hosting the NC game, the 2 semis, and one of the quarterfinal games). Could let the next 3 biggest bowl games (Cotton, Gator and maybe Holiday) be permanent hosts of the 3 remaining quarterfinal games.

If 16 team could have the 2nd, 3rd, 4th weeks of Dec and 1st week of Jan.

If 8 team could have the 3rd and 4th week of Dec and the 1st week of Jan.

That would still leave 27 bowls for 54 teams. So would have either 8 or 16 + 54 (62-70) teams either in a bowl or playoff (now there are 68 in bowls). Seems pretty simple.

[BDKJMU]

Take a look at the polls this week. Virginia Tech (4-1) has leapfrogged over Boise State (5-0) and USC (4-1) has gained significant ground in both the AP and USA Today polls. xnonono2x xnonox

At least the Harris Poll still has Boise State ahead of Virginia Tech, but both one loss teams gained significantly on total voting points.

Who cares. Even IF VT runs the table, wins the ACC Title game going 12-1, VT is not going to get in the NC game unless 2 of the following 3 lose 2 games:
-Bama (already beat VT)
-Fla
-TX

-Bama still has a brutal schedule, including @ Miss, LSU, and @ Auburn and if they make the SEC title game, FL.

-FL still has a tough schedule, including @ LSU this Sat and likely the SEC title game

Tx still has 3 ranked opponents, 2 on the road, and likely the Big 12 Championship game.

Any of those 3 finish with 1 loss they'll be in the BCS NC game, and I think it it will be 2 of those 3.

Boise plays a mostly cupcake schedule. Saying Boise should get a shot if they go undefeated on that schedule is a joke. Take a look at it. Its cupcake. Saying if they go undefeated they should get a shot at the title would be likel saying if HC went undefeated on their weak schedule they should get a top 2 seed.

[JSUBison]

You guys are making a ton of sense. Which is why it won't happen.

Seriously, could you imagine the type of ratings and hype playoffs would generate?

2 games on Friday night, and 3 each on sat and sun, for the first round.
College football playoffs would blow the NFL out of the water on sundays.

Sadly this bowl game nonsense over the holidays will continue.

[OhioHen]

They might be, and if not they're awfully close, Boise State is a good team. Going by the "would team x beat team y" system of rankings i think BSU would definitely lose to USC, Ohio State, or Miami. Other than that though there aren't any teams behind them that I can say are unquestionably better.

And BYU would definitely lose to Oklahoma -- OOPS!
And USC would definitely beat Washington -- OOPS!

That's why the games are played on the field, not on paper.

[PhoenixSupreme]

I-A could keep their 12 game regular season + Conference championship game + 3 round/8 team playoff= 16 games (for only 2 teams)


I think the problem that many colleges see in potentially having a 16-game schedule is that they either have to stretch the schedule into February, which some would be opposed to, or teams would have to start before the current bowl season starts, which could interfere with final exams and end-of-semester projects within classes. The NFL can pull off a longer schedule partly (and it is a minor reason) because players don't have to worry about academics (obviously). The latter is one of the reasons the Ivy League doesn't like to participate in postseason play, and also one of the reasons why many collegiate basketball teams have a sparse schedule around the fall exam time.

[appmaj]

How did USC gain ground?????

Cal is CLEARLY overrated. Maybe they ranked Cal just so USC could move up!
xoopsxxoopsx

[Big Al]

I will say this about Boise:

If they're winning close games to stay undefeated, then you can make a legitimate argument that they're aren't top-flight. However, if they're consistently throttling inferior opponents, then they're showing they're at least superior to their level of competition and I think that deserves consideration. Saying, "Play in a better conference" is a cop-out. The Big 6 know they've got a good thing going and they're not likely to mess with it by simply letting in whatever team asks --- it's in their interest to keep good non-Big 6 schools on the outside looking in.

[Thunderstruck84]

and championships are the only thing that matter. I've never understood why everyone gets all worked up about winning a bowl game that gives you a chance to finish the year ranked 3rd, or 5th, or 16th, whatever. Nothing matters but being the last ones left standing, that's the only reason to play the game.
$$$$$$$$

15M of them for a BCS bowl. That's a big deal for any university over the free razor blades you'll get for playing in the Schick Quatro Independence Bowl.


I don't understand why they can't keep all their stinking bowls and play a playoff. Take the 10 teams that would normally make the BCS. The 6 BCS conference champs get byes and the 4 at larges play the first week.

The conference championships are December 5th this year. The at larges play Dec 12th, the quarterfinals are December 19th, and the semifinals are December 26th. The two winners of the semifinals play in the NC game and the other 4 BCS bowls pick their teams from the remaining 8 like they would normally do.

xtwocentsx

[EKU05]

I believe you cant go to any FBS football player and say they are the national champion.

Anyway Boise should not be considered for national title respect. Join a decent conference and then go undefeated. Playing Phoenix online isn't going to cut it.

Not an NCAA title, but still a national one. You don't have to like how they determine who plays in their title game, but they do have pre-determined rules for that and they do crown a champion. Semantics don't change that.

[bluehenbillk]

Believe me I wanna playoff as much as anyone. Wouldn't life be better without hole-ridden systems like the BCS or it's feeble stepbrother the GPI.

FCS fans should know the answer why there isn't a playoff better than anyone. Its money and control simply put. Look how the FCS is watering down the playoffs adding the Big South and NEC and soon the Pioneer will be in the mix too apparently. If there will ever be a FBS playoff not only would the Big 6 leagues be in it but the WAC, MWC, MAC and Sun Belt would too. You're fooling yourself if you don't think that's the case. If they can figure out how to make more $ than they do now spread out over 40-45 more schools than you can pull it off.

[Thunderstruck84]

Believe me I wanna playoff as much as anyone. Wouldn't life be better without hole-ridden systems like the BCS or it's feeble stepbrother the GPI.

FCS fans should know the answer why there isn't a playoff better than anyone. Its money and control simply put. Look how the FCS is watering down the playoffs adding the Big South and NEC and soon the Pioneer will be in the mix too apparently. If there will ever be a FBS playoff not only would the Big 6 leagues be in it but the WAC, MWC, MAC and Sun Belt would too. You're fooling yourself if you don't think that's the case. If they can figure out how to make more $ than they do now spread out over 40-45 more schools than you can pull it off.
Exactly, look at how the NCAA waters down the NCAA basketball tournament by giving auto bids to the Summit and the MEAC and leagues of their ilk. Totally ruins the tournament. xrolleyesx

[bkrownd]

Once upon a time there was this wonderful thing called New Year's Day. It was better than Christmas! Better than Easter and Halloween combined! Better even than the pyro-tastic Fourth Of Fricken July! It was filled with Bowls of all kinds, and we could watch bowls all day long, on several TVs at once (4 was my record), hanging on every play because you never knew who would come out of the day with title hopes intact. It was a perfect, riotous festival of football glory.

But there were Bad People who wanted to meddle with New Years Day. They meddled and fumed and made a stink. The stink attracted a Grinch called the Bowl Alliance, which came along and stole New Year's Day. Suddenly committees and polls and formulas were screwing with tradition. But it got worse! The Bowel Alliance Grinch was eaten by the BCS TV Dragon, who ruined football forever by scattering bowl games all over the calendar and cancelling traditional bowl tie-ins. Now we live in a wasted land, where tradition is dead, New Year's Day is ruined, and college football is strung out on television money.

Who the hell cares what happens from here? Bury the corpse - it fricken stinks already!

[techstate]

Once upon a time there was this wonderful thing called New Year's Day. It was better than Christmas! Better than Easter and Halloween combined! Better even than the pyro-tastic Fourth Of Fricken July! It was filled with Bowls of all kinds, and we could watch bowls all day long, on several TVs at once (4 was my record), hanging on every play because you never knew who would come out of the day with title hopes intact. It was a perfect, riotous festival of football glory.

Five is now mine. (See below) Even though two are computer screens and one is a projector still five games on.

Have to agree that the bowl season is a lot of talking and waiting around for then next one to be played.

[Big Al]

Exactly. If there isn't going to be a playoff, let's dump the BCS and put all the bowls back on New Year's Day, where they belong. If there's gonna be controversy, at least give the controversy some tradition.



Once upon a time there was this wonderful thing called New Year's Day. It was better than Christmas! Better than Easter and Halloween combined! Better even than the pyro-tastic Fourth Of Fricken July! It was filled with Bowls of all kinds, and we could watch bowls all day long, on several TVs at once (4 was my record), hanging on every play because you never knew who would come out of the day with title hopes intact. It was a perfect, riotous festival of football glory.

But there were Bad People who wanted to meddle with New Years Day. They meddled and fumed and made a stink. The stink attracted a Grinch called the Bowl Alliance, which came along and stole New Year's Day. Suddenly committees and polls and formulas were screwing with tradition. But it got worse! The Bowel Alliance Grinch was eaten by the BCS TV Dragon, who ruined football forever by scattering bowl games all over the calendar and cancelling traditional bowl tie-ins. Now we live in a wasted land, where tradition is dead, New Year's Day is ruined, and college football is strung out on television money.

Who the hell cares what happens from here? Bury the corpse - it fricken stinks already!

[BDKJMU]

I think the problem that many colleges see in potentially having a 16-game schedule is that they either have to stretch the schedule into February, which some would be opposed to, or teams would have to start before the current bowl season starts, which could interfere with final exams and end-of-semester projects within classes. The NFL can pull off a longer schedule partly (and it is a minor reason) because players don't have to worry about academics (obviously). The latter is one of the reasons the Ivy League doesn't like to participate in postseason play, and also one of the reasons why many collegiate basketball teams have a sparse schedule around the fall exam time.

I-AA manages to do that with the playoffs, and the bowl season is mid Dec-early Jan, so teams are already playing in bowls that come the same week or a week after exams...

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Once upon a time there was this wonderful thing called New Year's Day. It was better than Christmas! Better than Easter and Halloween combined! Better even than the pyro-tastic Fourth Of Fricken July! It was filled with Bowls of all kinds, and we could watch bowls all day long, on several TVs at once (4 was my record), hanging on every play because you never knew who would come out of the day with title hopes intact. It was a perfect, riotous festival of football glory.

But there were Bad People who wanted to meddle with New Years Day. They meddled and fumed and made a stink. The stink attracted a Grinch called the Bowl Alliance, which came along and stole New Year's Day. Suddenly committees and polls and formulas were screwing with tradition. But it got worse! The Bowel Alliance Grinch was eaten by the BCS TV Dragon, who ruined football forever by scattering bowl games all over the calendar and cancelling traditional bowl tie-ins. Now we live in a wasted land, where tradition is dead, New Year's Day is ruined, and college football is strung out on television money.

Who the hell cares what happens from here? Bury the corpse - it fricken stinks already!

I was grew up with that tradition and it hasn't been the same since. I remember the line up along the lines of

Hall of Fame(Outback)

Early afternoon
Cotton
Citrus
Gator

Early evening
Rose
Fiesta

Night
Orange
Sugar

That was an incredible day. It'll never happen against because of TV. TV has really been ruining a number of sports.

[Hoyadestroya85]

Even an eight or four team playoff would be better than what is happening now.

[techstate]

i have to agree that what ever happens, the bowl games or playoff games need to be not as spread out. Also no team that is not in the top 2 in their conference should play after December 30th. None of this "fruit roller" bowl crap on the 5th of January or what ever it is.

[OSBF]

I disagree. I'd like to see anyone who thinks that go up to a great college football player who never won a national title and say to that person, "Your entire career was meaningless. You might as well have never played. Nothing you did matters."

Look, if being the best team on the planet was all that mattered then the Pro-Bowl would be the only game worth watching. Even the superbowl would be meaningless.

Players always put everything they have into succeeding at the highest level, but if you don't win it doesn't make the things you did accomplish meaningless. The BCS itself is messed up beyond comprehension, but the beauty of the broader bowl system is that it gives so many fan bases a chance to make one huge event out of the end of the season and to celebrate the accomplishments of their student athletes...whatever they may be.

Every game is worth winning weather a "championship" is on the line or not.

College football is not the special olympics. Everyone isn't entitled to a blue ribbon, a shiney trophy, a juice box and cookie, and a hug at the finish line. This is real life, there, there are winners and losers. At season's end there can be only one winner, everyone else is just a varrying degree of a loser.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Take a look at the polls this week. Virginia Tech (4-1) has leapfrogged over Boise State (5-0) and USC (4-1) has gained significant ground in both the AP and USA Today polls. xnonono2x xnonox

At least the Harris Poll still has Boise State ahead of Virginia Tech, but both one loss teams gained significantly on total voting points.

I would hardly consider it shenanigans. Boise St. took a big step back last week just by playing UC Davis. If you're a non-BCS school, you can't be scheduling such opponents. BCS schools can do ti because they have the meat of the schedule being in conference. The WAC schedule only hurts Boise St.

On a side note...UC Davis looked good last week. Only giving up 34 points was impressive.

[DOME]

The argument I've heard in FAVOR of the BCS system is that it makes every game matter...I say BULL! Tell that to Utah last year! Tell that to Boise St when they beat Oklahoma! Tell that to any undefeated team that every game matters!

As for Boise this year, I think they had a pretty convincing win over Oregon who has turned out to be a top notch team. Add to that they are destroying everyone else they've played. Maybe they aren't #1 but if they put another one loss team, let alone two, in the championship game over an undefeated Boise, or Cincy...I'd laugh but still be pissed if undefeated Iowa got overlooked.

Doubt Iowa would get passed though with wins over Penn St., Michigan, and Ohio St.

I make sure to remind everyone that the NCAA doesn't recognize the BCS championship.

[bluehenbillk]

The argument I've heard in FAVOR of the BCS system is that it makes every game matter...I say BULL! Tell that to Utah last year! Tell that to Boise St when they beat Oklahoma! Tell that to any undefeated team that every game matters!

As for Boise this year, I think they had a pretty convincing win over Oregon who has turned out to be a top notch team. Add to that they are destroying everyone else they've played. Maybe they aren't #1 but if they put another one loss team, let alone two, in the championship game over an undefeated Boise, or Cincy...I'd laugh but still be pissed if undefeated Iowa got overlooked.

Doubt Iowa would get passed though with wins over Penn St., Michigan, and Ohio St.

I make sure to remind everyone that the NCAA doesn't recognize the BCS championship.


See my earlier comments on the BCS. Yes, you are correct it's a bunch of bull meant to continue large sums of $$ funneling to just the big 6 leagues, versus sharing a larger pot with the MAC's & Sun Belt's of the world.

[OSBF]

See my earlier comments on the BCS. Yes, you are correct it's a bunch of bull meant to continue large sums of $$ funneling to just the big 6 leagues, versus sharing a larger pot with the MAC's & Sun Belt's of the world.

exactly right, it's much like conservative politics, the whole system is designed to protect the "haves" from the "have nots", and to insure that the "have nots" stay in their position at the bottom of the food chain and are never in a position to threaten the power or position of the "haves".

[GannonFan]

exactly right, it's much like conservative politics, the whole system is designed to protect the "haves" from the "have nots", and to insure that the "have nots" stay in their position at the bottom of the food chain and are never in a position to threaten the power or position of the "haves".

er, okay then. xrolleyesx xlolx

[wkuhillhound]

Exactly, look at how the NCAA waters down the NCAA basketball tournament by giving auto bids to the Summit and the MEAC and leagues of their ilk. Totally ruins the tournament. xrolleyesx

Hampton and Valparaiso would be sending you many thank yous. Iowa State and Mississippi on the other hand...... xeekx

[CollegeSportsInfo]

They need a playoff. Period.

But seeing Boise St. scheduling UC Davis, I knew it meant they had ZERO shot this year. In basketball, you have 30+ games and a mid-major can schedule a game against an A-Sun school and it doesn't kill you if the rest fo your OOC schedule is stacked. Boise had Oregon at home and that's it. They needed at least for their entire schedule to be FBS schools since the WAC adds little help to the SOS.